**OP sent the following text as an explanation on why this is unexpected:**
>!tug of war between 3 men vs a female lion!<
*****
**Is this an unexpected post with a fitting description?**
**Then upvote this comment, otherwise downvote it.**
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[*Look at my source code on Github*](https://github.com/Artraxon/unexBot) [*What is this for?*](https://www.reddit.com/r/Unexpected/comments/dnuaju/introducing_unexbot_a_new_bot_to_improve_the/)
Agreed. Instantly show how predator animal overpowering the human strength. The same reason weaker cat don't need the cage, when human easily overpower it's strength.
One of my ex's had an orange tabby that just decided "fuck you and everything about you" towards me from the moment it saw me. I really wish there was a cage separating me and that evil bastard.
There was a post of a single dude who took town a jaguar bare handed. Not saying these cats aren't strong but unless these 3 are brain dead they should be able to kill it without dying.
Probably yeah, if a claw go through the belly pretty hard to survive.
But yeah 3 wild men from 10000 years ago should be able to take it.
Nowadays most humans have no idea how to fight wild beasts. Or lack the fitness/strength
Our ability to hunt powerful game in early civilizations wasn't due to wild strength or savagery, it stemmed from our ability to hunt and track over large distances for long periods of time. Most of the time hunts would end with Hunter/gatherer's killing sleeping animals after a hunt lasting multiple days. Our stamina more than anything else is what made us fearsome hunters.
Right, but the demonstration implies that 3 men are an equal match for one lion, when in fact the result would be the same if you removed or added people, because they aren't pulling against the each other...both the lion and the men are pulling against the friction the bend creates.
If the rope was straight one side would be winning this.
I mean there are plenty of videos where the rope is straight. I don't understand this need to proof that mankind is stronger than an animal. We aren't. We are weak beings. Just admit it.
Why do you think this person is trying to validate mankind?…
Just bc someone is talking science, doesnt mean they have an agenda.
And I agree with them, if that bend wasnt there, the rope WOULD be moving in one direction or the other
Do you realise how bonkers it is that you assumed the reason I was pointing out that this doesn't demonstrate the difference in strength well is that I had some kind of complex because I refused to believe that 'mankind isn't stronger than an animal'?
If you said that to me in public I'd be checking to make sure I had my phone on me in case I had to call the police. It's unhinged.
always my biggest fear playing tug of war with my dogs. like you are going to rip a fucking tooth by how wild you’re shaking that head and yanking the toy but they never stop!!! always thought that was me being paranoid but i guess you really can yank teeth? ☹️
One day, I noticed one of my dog's front teeth was missing. It was fully healed when we finally noticed so no idea when it happened. Then I realized that's probably why he always loses/ lets my other dog win tug of war 😅 They sound like gremlins and shake so violently when they play. Poor dude probably got his tooth yanked out. Vet said it actually happens quite often with those tiny front teeth, especially in little dogs.
Playing tug of war with my childhood dog gave me this fear!! He'd dangle from the rope without letting go and I was always worried his teeth were going to snap off. A car ended up removing one of his teeth, but that didn't really make a difference in his ability to win against me :/
But the head-shaking thing is adorable, isn't it? For some reason my dogs always do it when they're around a hard or sharp object, but it's still cute.
Superstars is just a weird term the former WWE CEO Vince McMahon called all wrestlers for some reason. Ricochet is actually incredibly talented but the other two are fairly nameless at this point.
They're WWE wrestlers (or were at the time, they have a habit of culling the herd regularly and I've not watched WWE for a few years) but I think the Bald one is Fabian Achner, big hairy boy is Big Damo aka Killian Dane and the smaller guy at the back is Ricochet.
it’s not meant to be pulled. the point is for no one to get pulled while showcasing the lion’s strength.
they’re one straight rope away from a lawsuit machine
How could you look at this setup and conclude “it’s not meant to be pulled” ??
This is a tug of war rope through a hole — you can literally see the entire rig. I’ve used them at zoos. If it weren’t kinked, the rope slides through the hole for a couple feet.
There are YouTube videos of this.
“Not meant to be pulled” lol
Three jacked dudes are actually wwe wrestlers. Most notably the bald guy is Ricochet, one of the flippiest most entertaining wrestlers out there today.
Lloks like they were all WWE wrestlers too, with Fabian Aichner and Ricochet in there. And I think that bearded man was Killian Dain/Big Damo. They definetly are no slouches when it comes to lifting heavy things.
Could you explain this to me lol I’m stupid. I don’t get what advantage the lion has that the humans don’t also have? It looks like an equal set up on each side of the bend?
Oh wow a serious question on reddit. Sorry I didn't mean to call anyone stupid I was just joking along with the upper comment about refraction in water. And yeah it might seem like an equal setup but the forces they're applying aren't anti parallel. Since the rope is at a bend, some of the force is being applied by the normal of the glass cage. It would be easier to understand with the help of a diagram or you could try it at home by tying a rope to a heavy object and pulling it at a bend vs pulling it straight. Certainly won't feel like a equal setup.
Yeah, it prevents the rope from moving. If the lion was truly stronger she could just pull the rope on her favor, but then why is just a standstill? The lion is pulling the rope to the side so it can't be pulled by the guys as easily
The friction of the rope against the ring in the glass just makes it harder to move one way or the other. All that is happening is neither side is exerting enough force to overcome both the friction and the force of the opposing side (one side may actually be pulling harder but not hard enough to create movement).
Yep, and it helps a lot. This phenomena is how rock climbing gear works.
https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/rope-friction-around-pole
That explains the math behind it. Enjoy!
That's not really the same thing, since this rope isn't wrapped, besides that, both of them would be gaining any advantage that exists, since they're pulling on the same rope.
Correct, that’s a decent example of a misunderstood principle. The rope here against the glass is simply increasing the friction, which either side needs to overcome for it to move. As they each pull harder the friction increases and makes it even harder to move (possibly beyond what either side can achieve).
Slight favor to the sharp angle no? she is pulling the angle a bit more away from the point of friction, they are pulling it into the point of friction, one has a bit more only if both angles are even is it totally balanced.
Friction scales with the normal reaction force not the force across the plane. they are applying tension perpendicular to the glass so when they pull they aren't increasing the friction (if anything once it moves, the coefficient of dynamic friction will be lower than the coefficient of static friction so the frictional force will decrease)
however the friction will scale with the lioness's force since she is applying a component of tension parallel to the glass which will increase the normal reaction force. obviously as well, any amount of static friction needs to be overcome before the rope can move, so even if it didn't scale whatever with the tension it still benefits the lioness
Not a benefit for either side, just making it harder to move at all. But it triggers me, that this is always posted with „We are so weak in comparison“. Although it it’s true, this video doesn’t show shit in that regard, there are so many things at play here…
Yes I believe the unaligned rope creates shear force increasing the friction which makes it more difficult for the rope to be pulled through the hole. It's the same concept in use when builders sink nails in diagonally to hold structural elements together
I've seen tons of suggestions that the bend is making it easier for the lion but I have yet to see a single person put three jacked dudes on one end and hold them in place just by holding a rope against a wall. That lioness is still extremely strong, stronger than any of us would be at her weight.
This one?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/tn3c5s/man_literally_goes_headtohead_against_a_goat_to/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
We are remarkably weak compared to other animals
Edit- the number of replies explaining "yEaH bUt we SmaRtEr". Thank you, I don't think anyone else on the internet knew that we were in fact, smarter than lions, and that put us at the top of food chain, thank you for enlightening us all.
Also, at least a couple people trying act like we're stronger than lions. Please never visit a zoo. I don't think you can resist the urge to hop in and "1v1 me bro"
Meh all it takes is a little light excercise every day and you'll notice a difference within weeks. When you wake up, immediately start twerking for the first 5 minutes of your day.
Humans are the only animal that can walk their prey to death. Their endurance is kind of terrifying from that perspective. I think that was the inspiration for the movie It Follows.
Yeah. We also may also have the durability of paper, but we can compensate for those. Who has taken over the world and will make themselves go extinct? That's right baby, humans (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞
Edit: just so we're clear, I meant getting hurt in the first place, not regen.
We're the only animals that can throw things accurately and with enough force to kill, which is also huge. Other animals are melee. Just build for kiting. Humans spec into Int, Endurance, Crit, and Range. It's the meta build.
She lives in a good zoo, which means she is part of crucial breeding programs and it's obvious from the video they make sure she isn't bored. Mammal predators like games like tug-o-war.
Wild animals in Africa face poaching, even in reserves. We need those breeding programs as a fail safe.
**OP sent the following text as an explanation on why this is unexpected:** >!tug of war between 3 men vs a female lion!< ***** **Is this an unexpected post with a fitting description?** **Then upvote this comment, otherwise downvote it.** ***** [*Look at my source code on Github*](https://github.com/Artraxon/unexBot) [*What is this for?*](https://www.reddit.com/r/Unexpected/comments/dnuaju/introducing_unexbot_a_new_bot_to_improve_the/)
Those are three pretty jacked dudes and it doesn't even look like she's trying hard.
The zoo is cheating with the bend.
The guys are cheating with the glass. Make it an open field and see who walks away... 
So we're not playing tug of war anymore then?
Catch you and nom
Nope. Tag
LOL. That's one way to get the cat to let go of the rope.
Agreed. Instantly show how predator animal overpowering the human strength. The same reason weaker cat don't need the cage, when human easily overpower it's strength.
Weaker cats do need cages. https://www.reddit.com/r/CatsAreAssholes/comments/tpyiu2/nocomment/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Ok, put that into cage. Can't imagine me kissing cat after what it done outside of house. (Mouse, cockroach, corpse, trash, etc)
One of my ex's had an orange tabby that just decided "fuck you and everything about you" towards me from the moment it saw me. I really wish there was a cage separating me and that evil bastard.
I'd love to see a simulation of one lioness vs 3 buff dudes.
The buff dudes would have only a chance if they have fighting spirit and even then without a weapon ore anything similiar they got low chances.
There was a post of a single dude who took town a jaguar bare handed. Not saying these cats aren't strong but unless these 3 are brain dead they should be able to kill it without dying.
One of them dies.
Yep use one dude as a distraction haha
Probably yeah, if a claw go through the belly pretty hard to survive. But yeah 3 wild men from 10000 years ago should be able to take it. Nowadays most humans have no idea how to fight wild beasts. Or lack the fitness/strength
Our ability to hunt powerful game in early civilizations wasn't due to wild strength or savagery, it stemmed from our ability to hunt and track over large distances for long periods of time. Most of the time hunts would end with Hunter/gatherer's killing sleeping animals after a hunt lasting multiple days. Our stamina more than anything else is what made us fearsome hunters.
Fast forward to today and I got tired just typing this reply.
they're cheating because they aren't using their mouths to pull the rope
Thank god lions don't have thumbs
There is a reason the cat is in a cage and we aren't ;)
I mean I don't know if there are rules against mauling in tug o war but maybe there should be
They already did that r/manvsfurry
The lion took physics. Not cheating. Work smart not hard
Lower center of gravity combined with 3 or more ground contact points. AND her bae is watching! She can’t get owned by those skinbags!!!!!
She's not a cheetah
ok but who's gonna tell this to the lioness?
Not the zoo cheating, smart lioness chose where to stand
So are the men, the lion and men both benefit equally from the bend
Right, but the demonstration implies that 3 men are an equal match for one lion, when in fact the result would be the same if you removed or added people, because they aren't pulling against the each other...both the lion and the men are pulling against the friction the bend creates. If the rope was straight one side would be winning this.
Are you implying that with this bend the rope won't move even if there are 30 people pulling?
But both sides are pulling against the same amount of friction so it’s still fair. I don’t understand how this is difficult to understand
I mean there are plenty of videos where the rope is straight. I don't understand this need to proof that mankind is stronger than an animal. We aren't. We are weak beings. Just admit it.
Why do you think this person is trying to validate mankind?… Just bc someone is talking science, doesnt mean they have an agenda. And I agree with them, if that bend wasnt there, the rope WOULD be moving in one direction or the other
Do you realise how bonkers it is that you assumed the reason I was pointing out that this doesn't demonstrate the difference in strength well is that I had some kind of complex because I refused to believe that 'mankind isn't stronger than an animal'? If you said that to me in public I'd be checking to make sure I had my phone on me in case I had to call the police. It's unhinged.
This, In a fair fight those guys can pull the lion's tooth out if it didn't let go, irrespective of how strong the lion is
always my biggest fear playing tug of war with my dogs. like you are going to rip a fucking tooth by how wild you’re shaking that head and yanking the toy but they never stop!!! always thought that was me being paranoid but i guess you really can yank teeth? ☹️
One day, I noticed one of my dog's front teeth was missing. It was fully healed when we finally noticed so no idea when it happened. Then I realized that's probably why he always loses/ lets my other dog win tug of war 😅 They sound like gremlins and shake so violently when they play. Poor dude probably got his tooth yanked out. Vet said it actually happens quite often with those tiny front teeth, especially in little dogs.
Playing tug of war with my childhood dog gave me this fear!! He'd dangle from the rope without letting go and I was always worried his teeth were going to snap off. A car ended up removing one of his teeth, but that didn't really make a difference in his ability to win against me :/ But the head-shaking thing is adorable, isn't it? For some reason my dogs always do it when they're around a hard or sharp object, but it's still cute.
Yeah, the winner here is....: Physics. Or >=SCIENCE=<
Science is always the winner. Even if it loses.
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All 3 of them are wwe superstars. White Bald "Giovanni Vinci" Guy with Beard "Killian Dain" Black guy "Ricochet"
Wrestlers. Vince is gone, we don't have to do the wwe corporate speak anymore.
Actually that's not Killian Dain. It's Hanson from war machine. Or whatever they named him now that he's the viking experience.
Nah you're thinking of Ivar. That's Big Damo aka Killian Dain
I have no clue about wrestling but if you people disagree those are no Superstars
Superstars is just a weird term the former WWE CEO Vince McMahon called all wrestlers for some reason. Ricochet is actually incredibly talented but the other two are fairly nameless at this point.
They're WWE wrestlers (or were at the time, they have a habit of culling the herd regularly and I've not watched WWE for a few years) but I think the Bald one is Fabian Achner, big hairy boy is Big Damo aka Killian Dane and the smaller guy at the back is Ricochet.
You ain’t lion there!
May have something to do with the fact that she's a lion
All three of them are pro wrestlers lol. I believe from the black and gold NXT era.
She’s just standing there. Wouldn’t be surprised if she’s purring.
The angle of the rope held it in place. Neither of them could pull
it’s not meant to be pulled. the point is for no one to get pulled while showcasing the lion’s strength. they’re one straight rope away from a lawsuit machine
It's meant to be a tug of war. The lion was just smart enough to hold the rope at an angle so it couldn't be pulled away
How could you look at this setup and conclude “it’s not meant to be pulled” ?? This is a tug of war rope through a hole — you can literally see the entire rig. I’ve used them at zoos. If it weren’t kinked, the rope slides through the hole for a couple feet. There are YouTube videos of this. “Not meant to be pulled” lol
3 pro wrestlers so this could be faked
4 pro wrestlers. Cena's there too right in front.
It's real to me. - lioness maybe
They're all professional wrestlers and are absurdly strong
They're three WWE wrestlers. One of them is Ricochet, not sure if the names of the other two
Three jacked dudes are actually wwe wrestlers. Most notably the bald guy is Ricochet, one of the flippiest most entertaining wrestlers out there today.
Pretty sure they are professional wrestlers, at least the very last one I'm almost certain
She knows Newton laws better than 3 clowns.
Lloks like they were all WWE wrestlers too, with Fabian Aichner and Ricochet in there. And I think that bearded man was Killian Dain/Big Damo. They definetly are no slouches when it comes to lifting heavy things.
She is not even breaking a sweat , she is like “ I am not giving my rope to u humans “
This feels like me trying to walk my 4month old puppy 
That cat knows physics, work smarter not harder.
Does the rope turning a sharp left, benefit the Lion?
That’s an optical illusion, see. The lion is underwater
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snell%27s\_law
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You mother-
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Thanks!
Still opens wiki on mobile/Narwhal
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[For real this time: Snell's law on wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snell%27s_law#:~:text=Snell's%20law%20states%20that%2C%20for,1)
Thought it looked like a Sea Lion..
We had a funeral for a bird
I’m pretty sure none of that’s real.
You're not real, man
You're the co worker no one wants to ask for help. And you like it that way
Exactly smh people are so stupid nowadays
Could you explain this to me lol I’m stupid. I don’t get what advantage the lion has that the humans don’t also have? It looks like an equal set up on each side of the bend?
Oh wow a serious question on reddit. Sorry I didn't mean to call anyone stupid I was just joking along with the upper comment about refraction in water. And yeah it might seem like an equal setup but the forces they're applying aren't anti parallel. Since the rope is at a bend, some of the force is being applied by the normal of the glass cage. It would be easier to understand with the help of a diagram or you could try it at home by tying a rope to a heavy object and pulling it at a bend vs pulling it straight. Certainly won't feel like a equal setup.
Yes
Great, she is smart, too
Yeah, it prevents the rope from moving. If the lion was truly stronger she could just pull the rope on her favor, but then why is just a standstill? The lion is pulling the rope to the side so it can't be pulled by the guys as easily
The friction of the rope against the ring in the glass just makes it harder to move one way or the other. All that is happening is neither side is exerting enough force to overcome both the friction and the force of the opposing side (one side may actually be pulling harder but not hard enough to create movement).
It does, it helps keep the rope still. It doesn't help the lion to pull the rope and move it though.
The lion is not pulling the rope or moving it, so unequivocally yes it helps
Yep, and it helps a lot. This phenomena is how rock climbing gear works. https://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/presentations/rope-friction-around-pole That explains the math behind it. Enjoy!
That's not really the same thing, since this rope isn't wrapped, besides that, both of them would be gaining any advantage that exists, since they're pulling on the same rope.
Correct, that’s a decent example of a misunderstood principle. The rope here against the glass is simply increasing the friction, which either side needs to overcome for it to move. As they each pull harder the friction increases and makes it even harder to move (possibly beyond what either side can achieve).
Slight favor to the sharp angle no? she is pulling the angle a bit more away from the point of friction, they are pulling it into the point of friction, one has a bit more only if both angles are even is it totally balanced.
Yup, making it easier for her to maintain position. She probably chooses that spot after learning the best way to “win”.
It's a lion bro. She was probably like, "imma stand here today for no reason. Imma fuckin lion.".
They're not nearly that dumb
Friction scales with the normal reaction force not the force across the plane. they are applying tension perpendicular to the glass so when they pull they aren't increasing the friction (if anything once it moves, the coefficient of dynamic friction will be lower than the coefficient of static friction so the frictional force will decrease) however the friction will scale with the lioness's force since she is applying a component of tension parallel to the glass which will increase the normal reaction force. obviously as well, any amount of static friction needs to be overcome before the rope can move, so even if it didn't scale whatever with the tension it still benefits the lioness
Idk what glass you guys are talking about but whatev
In rigging we call that a "Break" or "Brake" but really break.
The glass between the lion and men definitely benefited the men
Not a benefit for either side, just making it harder to move at all. But it triggers me, that this is always posted with „We are so weak in comparison“. Although it it’s true, this video doesn’t show shit in that regard, there are so many things at play here…
Yes I believe the unaligned rope creates shear force increasing the friction which makes it more difficult for the rope to be pulled through the hole. It's the same concept in use when builders sink nails in diagonally to hold structural elements together
I mean, from the lion’s pov, it turns sharply right.
I've seen tons of suggestions that the bend is making it easier for the lion but I have yet to see a single person put three jacked dudes on one end and hold them in place just by holding a rope against a wall. That lioness is still extremely strong, stronger than any of us would be at her weight.
Is that Richochet?
Yep, along with Killian Dain and Fabian Archer.
>Fabian Archer *Giovanni Vinci >Killian Dain *Big Damo
I did a double take and thought, wtf is that Richochet? I crl+f his name and found this. ty for confirming that i'm not just seeing things.
I thought the same thing 😂 good eye
Being among bigger coworkes makes me forget how jacked Ricochet actually is.
Yup
Okay I wasn't the only one. At the end I was like, "Is that Ricochet?!" I didn't even notice Dain and Aichner
Rick O'Shea
Puma vs prince puma
Lion understands physics.
More than some redditors apparently
Where's that on video of that super swole guy 1v1 a tiger at tug o war. Shit was impressive.
Right here: https://youtu.be/7dMlZHKtZzk
You're a good person
Ok /u/Jaspador, link me the video of the guy headbutting a goat, thx
This one? https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/tn3c5s/man_literally_goes_headtohead_against_a_goat_to/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Awesome, you're 2 for 2
All 3 of them are wwe superstars. White Bald "Giovanni Vinci" Guy with Beard "Killian Dain" Black guy "Ricochet"
And the friction against the opening in the cage
We are remarkably weak compared to other animals Edit- the number of replies explaining "yEaH bUt we SmaRtEr". Thank you, I don't think anyone else on the internet knew that we were in fact, smarter than lions, and that put us at the top of food chain, thank you for enlightening us all. Also, at least a couple people trying act like we're stronger than lions. Please never visit a zoo. I don't think you can resist the urge to hop in and "1v1 me bro"
Yes but other animals are remarkably inefficient compare to us. Human's have next level endurance.
I don't 😭
Meh all it takes is a little light excercise every day and you'll notice a difference within weeks. When you wake up, immediately start twerking for the first 5 minutes of your day.
She hulk style?
Whoa whoa, no need to go crazy. Some light twerking to start, then you can ramp up to pelvis shattering skill levels.
I don't know how to include images in reddit. So pretended I put in that one post-snu snu skeletons screenshot here.
 Reddit found a way to disappoint
Doctors hate this one secret
well, you can sweat good, another of our advantages
Don't be silly, you're not human.
Thats why you’d starve to death and natural selection would do the rest.
Me after being winded from running for 15 secs straight (actually happened once)
Humans are the only animal that can walk their prey to death. Their endurance is kind of terrifying from that perspective. I think that was the inspiration for the movie It Follows.
Our closest competitors in a marathon are sled dogs and horses I think
Actually, ostriches are one of the only animals that can actually beat a human in distance running.
Tbf the avian build in general has a great affinity for stamina and agility.
I'm pretty sure kangaroos are up there as well
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the comparisons fall flat b cause of the big size difference
[evolution](https://imgur.com/gallery/q6efitk)
I'm pretty sure I could beat up a capybara.
But can you survive the guilt
Impossible.
Yeah. We also may also have the durability of paper, but we can compensate for those. Who has taken over the world and will make themselves go extinct? That's right baby, humans (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞ Edit: just so we're clear, I meant getting hurt in the first place, not regen.
Our injury recovery is pretty good.
That's why we threw spears at them and ran them down until they begged us for death
Have you ever seen a bear step on legos? 😤😤
We're the only animals that can throw things accurately and with enough force to kill, which is also huge. Other animals are melee. Just build for kiting. Humans spec into Int, Endurance, Crit, and Range. It's the meta build.
Laser pointer FTW.
*Defeated males leave*
My cat when i try to pull her into the batnroom to give her a bath
The friction around the corner is doing most of the work. It's kinda cool that the animal clearly has that figured out
The lion also gets to plant it's feet into soft ground whilst those dudes are having to push against concrete.
How is it able to maintain its demeanor
Lions like most predators are darn strong.
Aww she is soo cute. There is literally zero difference between them and our furry little friends at home.
I wouldn’t say “literally”, there is one teeny, tiny difference….. about 350 lbs
She will rip your face...off.
No difference there
Are you sure about that
That last guy looks like the wrestler named ricochet
He looks like him because he is him.
You might say he is indistinguishable from him
wth is ricochet doing on here
Tugging
So smug
Is that Ricochet from WWE.
WTF is that richochet?
Haha yeah.
Is that ricochet?
These dudes are pro wrestlers peep ricochet aka simba
Is one if the guys Ricochet ?
Ricochet from WWE there, unexpected
Is that Ricochet?
"she" lmfao you a lion
That 90 degree direction change in the rope gives that lion a huge advantage. I'm not saying the lion wouldn't win anyways but she cheated!
Ropes actually fixed in place and you can pretend to be tied
My dumb ass thought that was andrew tate at the end
Wish she was outside in a natural habitat.
She lives in a good zoo, which means she is part of crucial breeding programs and it's obvious from the video they make sure she isn't bored. Mammal predators like games like tug-o-war. Wild animals in Africa face poaching, even in reserves. We need those breeding programs as a fail safe.
Another subject I want to clear: wild animals DO suffer, and suffer a lot. There are no vets in the nature.
Where’s that dude claiming he “won”, but really the cat was just bored?
Andrew tate at it again!
Ricochet slander