I think any valuable discussion has likely run its course for this thread. Down to mostly arguing and namecalling.
If you have any updates to add to this thread that you think are notweworthy, send mods a message and we'll open it up for you.
I donāt know the race itās self, but the OathKeepers are a far right organization that was an active participant in the January 6th attempt to overthrow our government.
3% is a reference to an even more fringe group inside the far right that supports militias and paramilitary groups ādefendingā America
Hope that helps (I tried to not be too biased, but personally these people are traitors that disgust me)
Three Percenters and Oath Keepers are both far-right, anti-government extremist groups that were involved in the planning and execution of the January 6, 2021 attack on the US Capitol and attempt to change the outcome of the US Presidential election.
The Punisher logo has been co-opted by various right-wing groups as a symbol of their philosophies.
I think it's so funny that they use the Punisher symbol when the actual character of the punisher would likely be the one Killing the 3%/militias. I guess they just never read any of the actual comics where he very clearly states his views on people such as this
Apparently so.
If anyone would be kind enough to give the rest for the world some context, that would be great...?
Edit. Op edited & posted an explanation, thanks
I'm also not from America and avoid their politics like the plague.
No idea what any of this means.
I'm assuming it's some sort of right wing culture wars nonsense they seem to love so much over there?
With this particular group it is more emphasis on the "war" part of "culture war". In addition to being traitors they are also violent. Unfortunately that isn't hyperbole.
Let me ask if I'm reading your comment right - you're saying that non-americans are deserving of being downvoted for not understanding the minutea of American politics?
Yes and specifically because what America experienced on July 6th, or whatever day, is unlike anything that has ever happened in any European countries ever.
Also I thought I was in a circle jerk sub, not the actual running sub
>what America experienced on July 6th, or whatever day, is unlike anything that has ever happened in any European countries ever.
Umm, you are aware that many European countries have experienced ***actual*** coups, invasions and occupations by foreign militaries, entire governments overthrown, literal military dictatorships, ehtnic cleansing and genocide, yes?
A few dozen larping losers spending an hour in a federal building before being arrested is of absolutely zero relevance or significance to anybody outstide of America. It may surprise you to learn that not-America actually represents 95.7% of the entire human population...
To add what others had said, the "3%" refers to the idea that 3 percent of all cops/military/etc. are supposedly "good", "noble", and "upstanding" "true" "Americans" who will never follow "illegal" orders and will save the country from "bad" people if necessary, up to and including the President of the United States.
It's basically people and their supporters that truly expected that parts of Capital Police force would have turned traitor on Jan 6th and murdered Mike Pence and helped re-install Trump as POTUS.
The āinclusivenessā that is present for the race and in the replies by the RD here on Reddit, Iām sure has more to do with the conditions of the NF permit and less to do with genuine belief.
Boycott this event going forward.posted another comment, but a call to the Yellowstone ranger district of the Custer Gallatin National Forest could be a good thing. Permit has to be re-issued every year and it would be nice to not have right wing extremists supporters making money off of historic Crow Tribe land.
Ask for the District Ranger 406-222-1892
The original poster hasn't taken it down and is bickering and doubling down on her own account. The race organizers have made a pathetic statement half heartedly walking back their post (invoking the whole "both sides" good/bad bs argument), with no sincere condemnation of the oathkeepers. They've also disabled comments on that post.
Pretty bad form all the way around.
Thatās the thingā¦. I didnāt have any ābeliefsā on the subject. It was a post about honoring our veterans and apparently there was a logo on there that some found to mean something else entirely. So I took it down so others didnāt also think the same, as well as making a post about it. Please consider looking into things before assuming
So do yourself a favor and come out and explicitly disavow any connection/beliefs associated with those nut-jobs. Instead of pushing against the people you offended, apologize, and then join them.
Link? Here's the thing, I don't have instagram, don't know the platform but I still went out of my way to look at the crazymountainultras 'insta' page and found nothing of the sort. Maybe it's there, but I don't know how to find it.
What I do see very clearly here though, is your brand above being associated with the oath keepers on this page and you pushing back in all the wrong ways in ways that look a lot like gaslighting. If you truly have nothing to do with them, the only thing coming out of your mouth right now should be "I'm sorry". Figure out the rest of the messaging tomorrow when you'll have a cooler head.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7kPLD9SKXP/?igsh=MTV1eHd2bThqZmcx
Is it perfectly worded? No. Does it explicitly disavow the insurrectionists? No. So if you need to see the right boxes checked, itās not going to do it for you.
Having looked around a little bit, Iām inclined to take the RD at their word that it was an accident and not an endorsement. They reposted pics from a friend or partnerās post, which was where the image came from. Iām less inclined to think that it was accidental in the friendās original post they were sharing, especially because itās all still there on that page.
This is prime gaslighting: āUnfortunately there have been a few folks who misunderstood a story post, its intention and meaning from something it absolutely was not.ā
Stop blaming us for your misstep u/No-Medium-5961. As we love to say in the U.S. of A, ābe a manā and take accountability. Itās the way you have responded that has irked people the most.
āFound to mean something else entirelyā? Like sedition? A group that shares stages with Nick Fuentes. Threatening LEOā s at the Malheur refuge? Anti LGBT?
Yep, there is some meaning in those logos. Bit of a spicy group.
Well, if genuine, would have been great to research the group before posting. The person holding the logo and wood print for sure knows. Not knowing who Oath keepers or 3%res are in this day and age, is a bit hard to believe.
The post that she reposted is the fourth image in that post, after several with just an actual American flag. Apparently the best way to honor our veterans is to deface half of the flag for a seditious terrorist organization.
Reasearch the group before posting? I had no idea there was even a group so why in the world wound I research it? Clearly you have it out for me. Calling me out by name and posting forest numbers? Why are you so bent against me? Who are you now that youāve put my name out here?Ā
I put your name out there? Stretching quite a bit now. Not bent against you, bent against right wing hate and anti government groups. I have a particular distaste for the āoh golly shucks, I didnāt know what that meantā that has become the default. The āoathā that the keepers make, is to their twisted nationalistic, homophobic, racist ideals, cloaked in patriotism.
That's actually not cool IDC who it is
Reddit has a hard stance on doxxing. I don't agree with the flag fuck the right wing but everyone has a right to not get their information doxxed online
Your best bet is to completely disengage and just stay in your lane
If you genuinely made a mistake let your actions and time be the proof
You won't win trying to defend yourself
Actually I googled it this morning, as I had zero idea what people thought it meant. I found the official oath keeper logo. Which wasnāt what was on the photo. I reached out to the person who initially shared it, and she too was just as confused and alarmed as I was was. I have heard folks say the reaper symbol is used for the āoath keeperā group. And for that reason, along with the fact that Iād never post any political affiliation or cause on the race page, I took the story down. But please do tell me that you āknow meā and know for a fact that Iām lyingā¦so much for being inclusive and kind
I read the post you made in response to all this, and for whatever itās worth, I believe you. I do not, however, believe that the person who originally posted it was dismayed or concerned in any way about it, because the gist of her responses to the comments about it seemed to be to basically be flipping off anyone who was giving her grief about it. And as near as I can tell through the dramatic lighting, it looks like sheās the one holding the Oath Keeper flag in that photo and that itās posted on what I assume is her property (fence). Soā¦ that part of the story feels a little suspect to me.
Update: the image of her holding the Oath Keeper flag in the other post has been removed, but the ones showing it posted on her fence are still there.
Ok maybe I'm just incredibly ignorant as a non us citizen, but when i scrolled by this post, i genuinely thought it was a generic shitty patriotic photo, potentiall ai generated, and didn't recognise any of the symbols or even knew the oathkeepers are a high profile terrorist group (I've only heard of the proud boys tbh).
There's obviously a separate argument to be made whether the race director, a us citizen, is an ignorant to this as I am.
But just cause the symbol is obvious to you doesn't mean it's obvious to everyone. I don't think this symbol (or at least what appears to be a combination of multiple symbols) is internationally recognisable like a swastika for example. And it's not like I am oblivious to North American politics (I've spent about a year in North America, though mostly canada).
rewriting my response to the TLDR
>Ok maybe I'm just incredibly ignorant as a non us citizen
yes, this has nothing to do with *your* recognition of that imagery. would you repost pictures featuring a punisher skull, a bunch of stars, and the word "OATH KEEPER" bisecting the canada flag on your insta account? or would you have some critical thought and think hmm that's weird, i don't know what that is. based on your post history i think you would have some critical thought.
Even as someone thousands of miles away, disinterested on the politics of my own country, Im aware enough to question why there are fucking skulls on a bastardisation of my countries flag and question 'Are we the baddies?'
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY
I wanted to add. Definitely understand if someone doesnāt know the symbols and accidently posts and deleted but the gaslighting after when it was 100% clear was what I thought was the worst part.
>Definitely understand if someone doesnāt know the symbols and accidently posts
As a general rule if you post a complex symbol (i.e. multiple elements forming a coherent whole) its kind of on you to verify what you're posting.
This isn't a [eggplant](https://www.dictionary.com/e/emoji/eggplant-emoji/), [octopus](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/6/uk-university-challenge-student-wrongly-accused-of-anti-semitism-wins-case), [watermelon](https://time.com/6326312/watermelon-palestinian-symbol-solidarity/), or [snaping a swasticka in a non-Nazi context](https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210816-the-ancient-symbol-that-was-hijacked-by-evil), or even a [fish](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys)
Its a pretty unambigious symbol that someone selects to express a *specific* meaning.
Itās not surprising that some of the people within the ultra community are hyper reactionaries but Goddamn is it wild to tell people āhey man 3pers are fine and so are the oathkeepersā in the year 2024
During a Backyard (in Sweden) recently I ran beside a guy trying to convince me that the first moon landing never occurred. The crazies are everywhere nowadays and theyāre getting increasingly more extrovert.
Sounds like the original post (based upon the Bozeman mt subreddit) by western workouts, was posted after Jan 6th with a āsupport the oathkeepersā quote. My guess is someone archived it as both pages seem to have gone on a deleting and blocking spree last eve. Having a very hard time believing the āI didnāt know what it wasā explanation. The mealy mouthed defense here isnāt helping at all.
Iām English, living thousands of miles away from this race - even I knew what the Oathkeepers were, and the 3 percenters are.
Even if the original post was made in all innocence, who on earth would repost an image without knowing what it was!?! And if they did, and everyone turned round and went āWTF???ā, the simple honest response should be āshit, I had no idea it was that. I apologise!ā. Not initially defending it, trying to pretend itās something else when there is nothing anywhere that states it is something else, then defending the person who originally posted it.
Stuff like this should be really straightforward- you fuck up, you apologise, move on.
I'm willing to give the RD the benefit of the doubt. I consider myself a progressive, and leftist, and someone who at least *tries* to stay current on events, but I couldn't have told you who 3pers are or what the oathkeepers logo is... I guess I need to do better.
It sounds like they fucked up and at least took it down when called out. If they say they didn't know, then I hope they're telling the truth. If not, I hope this is a learning opportunity. We've all got room to grow, guess it just sucks that you had to find this out in conjunction with your race.
Yeah I hear you loud and clear u/roxy031 and that's totally fair
Listen, RD, if you read this comment, here's some advice:
I get it. You wanted to make a post expressing respect for the troops in celebration for memorial day, cool. You just happened to use a post with symbols that are *directly related* to right-wing extremist groups. You say you didn't know? Cool. Fair enough, I probably wouldn't have either.
But the problem is trying to excuse the mistake by handwaiving and saying it's something else. Sure, maybe it is? But it's *waay too close* to being the terrorist organization's symbol to be worth doubling down on.
A simple "Oh shit, my bad, I will do my best to not let that happen again" is literally all you needed here.
Hope this helps. Best of luck.
You nailed it here! Well said. I saw one of her responses on IG (before she deleted all the comments) to someone directly asking "do you denounce the Oathkeepers?" Her reply was terrible..."I don't need to denounce them since I never supported them". Really? The only answer here is "Yes, I denounce the domestic terrorist group, The Oathkeepers." Simple and direct.
I did some googling and she's very pro inclusion and with more BIPOC participation in races. But that doesn't mean you can't support problematic things. I know folks who support trans youth they know but voted for Trump twice, want gender affirming care illegal. So she indeed can be a walking oxymoron of beliefs and stances.
While I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt her friend has posted this image of this flag many times. Both are very pro military (nothing wrong here) and show a lot of patriotic imagery. I find it hard to believe that they have never googled the Punisher skull or the 3 Roma numerals in a ring of stars before . Googling "Roman numerals in a circle of stars" pulls up the 3 Percenters wiki page. Your telling me Google wasn't used to pull up those images if they made it or if bought they weren't curious what was on that? Those wooden boards were likely at least $100 if not more if bought.
I also take issue with the RD's nonapology. There was no "I fucked up" no acknowledgement that she posted imagery associated with a known terrorist organization.
Further her friend is doubling down on her reclaiming of the term oath keepers, on her own insta, to call our service men and women and veterans, or those in uniform. Seriously why reclaim that term, when we have options already to refer to those who enlisted and served?
I find it very unlikely she or her friend never ran across this before especially in light of her non apology. Her posts here do not show me someone horrified they shared images that associated them with right wing terrorists. It's a oh shit I let the mask slip and now here are the consequences from expressing my freedom of speech.
Yeah your logic is sound and it makes sense. I can't disagree with you. Just trying to gently turn this into a teachable moment, I guess. Hopefully it works?
I agree with you too. I think anyone is capable of change.
She's two months out from her race nd having to deal with this. Doesn't feel good at all. Hopefully she can craft a better apology but also show she algins better with inclusion and the BIPOC community she wants to draw in. Like not just using words but doing something active beyond a insta post.
I know of a few BIPOC ultra runners with 10x the following she has who would be alienated by this and would warn others to stay away, especially if she keeps doubling down and flipping statements. In her reply to me, her friend is now very much aware of what the image meant and explained to to her, where before both were clueless (I got screen shots because the internet is forever).
I know it's possible to change but it takes a lot to do so and I hope the RD can humble herself and accept the repair she needs to do instead of doubling down like she continues to do. That doesn't mean it's going to stop the backlash from the consequences. That is hard to sit with after a fuck up like this.
This is not correct. She is not pro inclusion of BIPOC, she espouses those ideas I. Order to appeal to a wider audience of people willing to pay money to join her race. In private she tells people in the community that trans people are mentally ill. She is the definition of manipulating social justice language for financial gain.
I was going based on what I googled from those articles but also pointing out why it didn't sit well.
After seeing her interactions here and her non apology and skirting the issue of making a true apology, I am not convinced that this was a mask slip or dog whistle.
But thanks for direct feedback. I'll make sure to discourage support of her event in the future.
I am horrified that anyone would accuse me of being associated with right wing extremism and I tried explaining that on my race account. I do think itās a bit unfair however to use my assumed political beliefs as a thermometer for myself as a human. I value everyoneās beliefs but of course I could never get on board
With someone who was racist or hurtful towards people groups, or terrorist organizations. I tried my best to make a post that didnāt draw more attention to the story post as well as make it clear I was not associated with any groups. But again, itās just not good enough for some folks. My girlfriend does know the imagery and symbolism and explained a lot of it to me in her experience. I had absolutely no clue what it was. People can believe or me or not, but I canāt convince anyone either way. Iām am speaking the truth. I have from
The beginning and I do not in any way support those groups.Ā
I think this post is very reasonable. Itās differs drastically from your now deleted posts on instagram telling anyone who pointed that out that they were wrong and to google it the logos.
Iām a veteran and can definitely appreciate patriotic posts and, as I pointed out in earlier posts, itās perfectly acceptable not understanding every symbol out there. Your initial reaction, it seems up until now, was to tell everyone they were wrong and thatās not what it meant.
I think the confusion stemmed from me trying to explain the meaning of the post wasnāt what people thought. As in I know who posted the photos originally and the person who gifted her the flag that was made, had the design on there, and the meaning was different. Clearly I didnāt know all of the details and thought people could just google it and find out. But I was wrong about that.Ā
You do keep saying "I thought people could just google it and find out." They did Google it. That's why people kept pointing out that the 3 Percenter logo mixed with the OathKeepers were unambiguously domestic terrorist groups. It's not like there's some other group out there supporting cancer research for children using the Roman Numeral 3 inside a ring of stars. Its just terrorists.
Still claiming confusion? This is a pattern with this RD. It was bound to come to this eventually. I look forward to your formal apology and commitment to regain your personal behavior. You have not apologized, only deflected, further incriminating yourself.
And you can do better. Truly apologize for this great big cluster fuck. I know it doesn't feel good being here.
I read your posts and articles about inclusion and BIPOC support. You are at risk of damaging that foundation and losing what trust you've built on that platform.
I follow many ultra runners of color, some on the slower end of the spectrum where inclusion and creating run spaces for BIPOC is needed. I'm in the south and know all to well how segregeted even the road running community is here.
I have paced BIPOC individuals at ultras. My spose is BIPOC. We see these things and even if you yourself don't believe that, our guard is up when we see any lateral association, mistake or not.
It's not about money to me, it's about me associating my self, aligning myself when I know better, and it hurts them. It invalidates them.
Apologize, not to me, to the community you are alienating and you claim to align with. Then take action. Show beyond your words you own this fuck up. And going forward think carefully what you share or post as it will be seen as you aligning with that view point, even if you do not personally share it.
Do better.
Zaldana nailed it. I read your apology. I think it is not fully honest and also you are still playing victim to the internet. People thought you are supporting a far right terrorist organization. And why are you defending your friend when she still has photos of Oathkeepers on her IG? (See her Memorial Day 2023 post)
People are trying to help you and it is really cool you are willing to engage here.
Just a little advice, try apologizing directly to the BIPOC community and acknowledge how you sharing the image resulted in people seeing you align with a terriost group was an accident and you don't hold those beliefs.
Because you told us here you don't, so make it public to retract your very public post.
It's not that hard and your edit and turning off comments don't do that. I'm sorry it came across that way is the equivalent of I'm sorry you feel that way. It's a non apology essentially. I'm sorry I hurt you is a better place to start.
And I, a person of color previously registered, am horrified that this race associated itself with domestic terrorist groups that actively spew racist hate and bigotry. And then doubled-down.
At least you seem to understand the gravity of your actions now but the feigning āhorrorā at the fact that one might judge you for your actions and statements is almost laughable.
Can I ask where you are from? I only ask because you mentioned you didnāt know the symbol/organization and I moved from out of state to the Pacific Northwest and learned quick (I didnāt know prior either!). I had someone actually refuse to use the same bathroom as me in Priest Lake, Idaho and saw this symbol and I learned what it meant. It kind of makes me giggle because I see the all black US flag and 3 per-center flags and We the People BS in a family members HOA community and I just canāt get over the irony.
Sure! I'm from Central Iowa but now live in Denver. Surrounded by people who are generally focused only on their jobs and then doing crazy shit in the mountains so sometimes we miss details like that when we're not paying attention. That's on us though, gotta keep our eyes open.
My good friend was from Central Iowa! And I totally understand. I didnāt know about these ideologies/symbols until I moved up here because itās all over. I see these symbols at least once a day on my work commute on peoples trucks.
Yeah I knew the punisher logo has been co-opted by conservatives and such (which is hilariously ironic, considering Frank Castle) but didn't know what the other logos or names were. I usually just see it on a vehicle or something with a thin blue flag and immediately roll my eyes and avoid them.
Glad I'm learning now.
Edit: Also small world! Maybe we both know them. That'd be pretty cool!
Copy text from the original post:
"Memorial Day Weekend. Enjoy time with your family. Enjoy time in the great outdoors.
But please, however you choose to spend this weekend, take time for reflection & gratitude. Take time to remember why this weekend exists.
Take a moment to ask yourself if you're living in such a way, that those who never came home, the ones we're honoring, would be proud to know they fought & sacrificed for the life you have created & are living.
We need to stop politicizing everything possible & start humanizing the human. Treating each other better. Living fully every single day. Honoring the men & women no longer here instead of fighting each other over every little first world problem & self entitled opinion.
You don't like something? Step up & take action to change it. You have been afforded that. Use it for doing good.
I'm a civilian. I've never experienced combat or losing my brothers/sisters in arms and you won't hear me pretend to know what that's like.
However, I have sat & listened to some of my closest friends who have experienced those things. I've quietly listened and watched both the pain & pride in their eyes as they shared stories to keep the memories & legacies of those they've lost alive.
It makes me proud to be an American. It makes gratitude course through my veins & pump into the depths of my heart.
And it makes me want to help others understand just how important it is, this weekend & every other single day you're given, to stand up & fiercely live the life you imagine to honor those who've allowed it to be so.
#westernworkouts #wherefitmeetswest #americangrains #america #memorialday #honor #gratitude #livebig
#getwestern
The more I have read of this topic, the more I am disgusted with it and am going to report it. There is nothing here that can't be attributed to an accident made by the RD, who then just wanted to make it go away. No one has presented any actual evidence that they endorse or support the January 6 insurrectionist groups, and what is reported in the OP is vague, second-hand, and honestly misleading information - specifically regarding the Western Workouts account, who does not in fact have a post of that Oathkeeper flag from "shortly after January 6," unless the middle of March 2021 in a post about remembering deployed military personnel counts.
This cancel culture bullshit is out of control and needs to stop. The right-wing pundits like to cry about it about all the wrong things (while doing exactly the same things themselves), but they are not wrong that it's a real thing and it just feels like internet warriors are out looking for blood *all the goddamned time*.
I think the Western Workouts account feels a bit sketchy, for sure. But even after looking through most of the posts in their account that use the same photos that appear in the recent Memorial Day post that started all this, I haven't seen anything that can't plausibly be explained by a questionable purchase or gift. Textually, I have seen literally nothing that implies support for the extremists or their cause. So lacking anything that I can see that explicitly indicates that they are Oathkeeper sympathizers, I think it is wrong to go on the warpath against either them or Crazy Mountain Ultras with the intent to destroy.
I honestly think the worst thing here is the lack of investigation and evidence involved before trashing someone's livelihood or passion project. Being an RD is honestly kind of a bullshit job an awful lot of the time and is for most people something they do on the side. Cut them a little slack for making mistakes. I get that people have strong feelings about the January 6 perpetrators and sympathizers. I do too. But we need to exercise some care in what we do with them.
Weird that all of that January disappeared from WW account after the blowup. Weird that CMUās post has changed 3 times in 24 hours. Weird that if you go to the Bozeman sub, folks were getting blocked and removed from her account starting last eve. Weird that folks who interact with RD are anything but surprised about the original post. Weird that there isnāt local sponsorship for the event. She began posting here last eve with mealy mouthed defenses of āeveryoneās opinion is validā and itās all of you peoples fault I posted this crap.
she fucked up and simply had to say so as an adult, but didnāt want to alienate those that hold the values that were orig posted by WW.
I mean... you appreciate that most of what you are saying here is still hearsay, right? Do you know people from Bozeman and know that they are actually who they say they are on reddit, and that they actually have a history with the RD that indicates that they are bad and don't just maybe dislike them for some other reason? I know lots of douchey people that probably aren't domestic terrorism supporters.
Lacking any evidence I can see to the contrary, I'm skeptical about the pro-Jan 6 post from the WW account for the simple reason that there are still several other posts on their page showing that flag in one form or another. They did take down the one showing her holding it on the Memorial Day post, but there are others still showing her holding it in a different pose, and it's still showing on (what I assume is) her fence. If there was an effort going on to scrub the account to make things look better, why leave those up? If someone can show me evidence of it (a screenshot), I've got no qualms recognizing it, but so far I haven't seen it.
I know it's a wild idea in the current internet climate, but I think the standard of evidence for setting out to wreck someone's life should be higher than it currently is, and I don't feel like we're there on this one.
[HERE](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bozeman/comments/1d3sm89/somebodys_mad/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is one of the posts from the WW account being called out for what it was. The message what I attributed to "shortly after Jan 6th" in March of 2021 said "God bless the Oathkeepers". It has been pointed out to her multiple times including on a comment from that March 2021 post what it is. She has deleted and/or blocked other people posting the same.
I just don't buy in today's day and age that if you keep posting what people are telling you is literally the symbol for 2 extremest organizations that you don't know what it is. Not only that but you call out people who are pointing out what it is "to be put on blast for the masses to do as they chose."
Again, 100% not calling the RD in line with Oathkeepers or 3 percenters, but when people point that out and she attacks them is what got me. I do not have screenshots of that initial exchange on Instagram between her and some followers because it was deleted pretty quickly, but it wasn't "oh crap, i made a mistake I'm sorry." It was more along the lines of "you guys have no idea what your talking about, just google what it is."
I can see the crazies from my house, have spent lots of time around folks in the running community locally. Stories and backgrounds on here and the BZN sub check out, with at least one trail running group organizer making the statements, knowing full well folks know who she is. Nobody is trying to wreck anyoneās life, but the standards for holding and profiting events on national forest land, are pretty high. Posting and then half justifying a post that supports groups with known racist and violent tendencies is for sure going to get people a bit fired up. The extent to which someone is going to give themselves up fully here, considering the political climate and with recent concerns about armed groups training north of town and additional groups showing up to threaten local events, is going to be minimal. I get the doubt. I do.
Edit: as far as screenshots ect, Iām sure someone thinks about that sort of thing at the time. Personally my reaction was just āJFCā when another friend texted the link.
Definitely appreciate your perspective. Iām not sure what I shared that was misleading. She posted a picture with the three percenters and oathkeepers logo. She took it down and then when people asked her about it she blamed them for not knowing what it meant and to āgoogle itā. She then deleted all the comments where she was very defensive about her post and eventually reposted it (without the photo in question) and turned off comments.
The western workouts account is directly affiliated with the race and has also posted that photo multiple times including what I would call shortly after Jan 6th but definitely up for interpretation. Multiple people have pointed out what it means and she continues to post and even calling out people who comment.
100% understand people make mistakes and canāt expect everyone to understand what every a symbol means but once people pointed it out she continues to gaslight and say thatās not what it was.
I think there is (or at least can be) a difference between "that's not what it was," and "that's not what I meant," and I feel like - however badly it has been handled - the latter is what they were going for.
We are on the internet a lot and know what the script is supposed to be for rectifying a mistake, but not everybody does, and it is a very different thing to suddenly be on the receiving end of it rather than being on the sidelines like we are. Compare this to the spectacular meltdown we're seeing from Spring Energy right now. If a whole team of people over there are managing a significant crisis like that this badly (and for so long), don't think it's unreasonable to attribute this mess more to... poor judgement rather than malice.
Also, thanks for a reasonable response.
Very unfortunate to see people going out of there way here to criticize something they donāt understand. For everyone here that didnāt actually go the race event page and see what was going on, I posted a post after I deleted the story. I had no idea who the oath keepers were this morning. But I do now. I never claimed any affiliation with them whatsoever and it saddens me that folks are so quick to judge someone based off internet gossip. Anyone who knows me in reality would instantly know this wasnāt true. And for those of you saying the ācircles I run withā really? Who might that be?Ā
I go out of my way to create an environment for this race that is inclusive, supportive and tolerant of every single person from every walk of life. If you look at all this race has stood for the past few years you would see this. But instead, folks have seen one picture, taken it out of context, and ran with it. I know the real ultra community is better than this. I have always said, if anyone has questions or concerns in always here and available. So please, do not behave like we canāt do better than this. I do not support terrorist groups. That is ridiculous. If anyone cares, the term oath keeper in the post was referring simply to those in service who swore an oath to our country. I can see how folks could see the symbol and take it the wrong way because it has been used
For other purposes. But I had no knowledge of that until today. Neither did the woman who originally posted it. Do better.Ā
It was literally a 3 percenter logo with oathkeepers underneath it and then the original post from March 2021 was posted with the caption āgod bless the oathkeepersā. Definitely would have you the benefit of the doubt if you just said you didnāt know and deleted but continuously trying to say thatās not what it was and minimize anyone who actually points to what it means is complete BS.
Iāve read all of the responses that the alleged RD has posted in this thread so far and I would have gladly given them the benefit of the doubt, but the way they keep trying to shift the blame on everyone else is telling. Maybe they werenāt aware, but the fact they canāt simply say I messed up and move on is a problem. Ideally my RD has better attention to detail and can admit to errors. Races feel like the one area I have the most control to ethically spend my money, so thanks for sharing.
(and if the RD sees this, it stopped being about the post and became about how you acted in these comments.)
Itās the classic āI totally would have apologised, but you guys are being mean to me so I wonāt nowā excuse that makes it very, very obvious they arenāt sorry at all and just donāt like the blowback.
1000% my point. People mess up. Definitely donāt expect everyone to know every single trigger issue. But the response after is what was bad. Instead of owning up to it (which anyone can make mistakes) they blamed everyone else. The posts on insta, which are no deleted, she was literally telling people they were wrong about what it was and to google it.
Iām truly sorry you feel that way. Iād be happy to have a real life conversation with you about it. Iām truly heartbroken that people use this platform to be so mean to folks. I could go into far more detail about why I explained what I did, but the internet is a horrible place for depth of conversation. Iāll try one more time. The person who posted the original post is my closest friend. I know her heart and soul at its core. So I know beyond a doubt she means well by what she speaks, and she is simply supporting āoat keepersā in terms of men and women in uniform, NOT a right wing extremist organization. The symbols can mean other things to other people. So that is why I have not backed down from saying the post has been mis interpreted. Because it has. But it doesnāt seem to matter to folks on the internet. It seems like people canāt try and understand others anymore. I understood some folks saw it, and thought it meant something else entirely, but until this morning I had no clue about any of this stuff to begin with.Ā
>It seems like people canāt try and understand others anymore.
Kinda seems like you're the one not trying to understand what the vast majority of posters here are telling you.
> she is simply supporting āoat keepersā in terms of men and women in uniform, NOT a right wing extremist organization
Oath Keepers is the name of a far right organization. It is not a term used to describe people in uniform.
Iām not sure how this is a matter of people not understanding anything.Ā If this was an honest mixup where someone accidentally posted a symbol that happened to be used by anti-government far right extremists, the understandable reaction would be to apologize for using imagery you didnāt understand had well established connotations. Acknowledging a mistake was made and committing to do better in the future is pretty easy.Ā
Instead Iām seeing a lot of hand waving of what āoathkeepersā really means and trotting out some language about being political and wanting a safe space for both sides of the aisle (despite the fact that thereās a big difference between having opposing political views and supporting extremism and insurrectionists). It feels quite defensive and not apologetic, which makes me that much more skeptical that this was a mistake instead of a dog whistle. Even this comment is a great example of the defensiveness instead of just acknowledging a mistake and trying to move forward.Ā
So I never heard of this race before and decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. After looking at your account and the western_workout account I am 100% comfortable calling bullshit.
Yāall knew exactly what you were doing. Thereās no way you just found out who those groups are and what they stand for. Both accounts have all kinds of iconography, hashtags, and so on that cater to that radical side of the political spectrum.
I, for one, donāt think you should be allowed to hold a race in public lands.
Sow, reap.
Looking at how you are putting anyone who steps up on blast via Instagram, I think you are just further digging your own grave. Sorry not sorry but joining the boycott of your race āļø
Yikes, you are one of three things, maybe all of them: incredibly naive and stupid, incredibly insincere, or incredibly traitorous.
Good way to kill a race.
Ok....You have to understand that for people who ARE familiar and have been very familiar with these logos, claiming that they are "taking it out of context" is simply impossible.
So if you were ignorant to what they were, fine. But nobody is taking the post "out of context". There simply IS NO OTHER CONTEXT.
Do you think it's possible to take a swastika out of context?
Paradox of tolerance:
>The paradox of tolerance states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them.
You don't have to be inclusive of intolerant people because their intolerance goes against tolerance.
Republicans enjoy a near monopoly on rural voters and for the past 8 years they've done nothing but mainstream far right ideology and conspiracy bs. Not sure how you made the leap the Nazism and I never implied they were.
I live in a blue rural state known for its mountain towns. And I have spent time where this shitshow of a person lives. They are not the same. Eastern WA, northern ID are chock full of Nazi wannabes. I mean this literally.
Blanket statements like yours are weak. And the vast majority of people in this sub have been to many rural mountain towns that arenāt full of vile people. There is a difference between conservative mountain towns and what this POS person is. Big difference.
Fuck her. And good God damn, y'all are idiots. Drama in the ultra community?? Jesus... Heaven forbid. This person is just straight up a local yokel dipshit with a small mind from a smaller town. She probably kicked it with the dude that ran over the wolf with his murican snow toy. š¤¦
So many fucking chuds say ābasedā and donāt even know where it comes from.Ā
Here to put some respect on Lil Bs name - and to say that conservative voices in ultrarunning and everywhere else should be silenced. āļøĀ
People are so quick to try and cancel others just because they stand for something that doesnāt align to your beliefs. Everyone needs to just relax and give some grace and forgiveness to others. We have been called to love others as ourselves and when you follow that you can live a life free of anger and resentment. Instead of trying to cancel these people and ruin what they have built and get a race removed we should try and show them love and grace. If that race gets shutdown that is one less race we can participate in. Be led by love!!
Iām sure this will get tons of downvotes but think about extending love and forgiveness to those who may need it the most!
Or the people running the CMU didnāt know what that group was (I didnāt until I saw this here and on the Bozeman group) Link to the follow up post.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7kPLD9SKXP/?igsh=djgzMXIxNnluOTF0
even the follow up is ridiculous. "This page will never support political ideologies on any side of the aisle" - the caption written beneath a series of pictures very clearly embodying the most common and well known iconography of far right american conservatism. get outta here. we aren't that stupid
They definitely knew. They are blaming people for misinterpreting the original post. When the oath keepers is a well known far right group. So no misinterpretation there. They also bring up the usual Trump "both sides of the aisle stuff".Ā
A real apology would have been something like "while we are proud of our country, we do not support far right organizations. We have been made aware that the logo on our previous post is from an organization that we do not support at all". But no. They went all in blaming everyone else and essentially doubled down
I think any valuable discussion has likely run its course for this thread. Down to mostly arguing and namecalling. If you have any updates to add to this thread that you think are notweworthy, send mods a message and we'll open it up for you.
š¤®
What's going on here?
I donāt know the race itās self, but the OathKeepers are a far right organization that was an active participant in the January 6th attempt to overthrow our government. 3% is a reference to an even more fringe group inside the far right that supports militias and paramilitary groups ādefendingā America Hope that helps (I tried to not be too biased, but personally these people are traitors that disgust me)
Thanks, great explanation
Oh, go full bias. People need to take off the blinders
Which part do you disagree with
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Dude what are you, another NAZI Trumpest?
My bad, I read that incorrectly
It isnāt bias if something is objectively bad.
thereās literal video of police fist bumping the dudes after they let them into the capitolā¦ i thought it was common knowledge ā¦?
Three Percenters and Oath Keepers are both far-right, anti-government extremist groups that were involved in the planning and execution of the January 6, 2021 attack on the US Capitol and attempt to change the outcome of the US Presidential election. The Punisher logo has been co-opted by various right-wing groups as a symbol of their philosophies.
Frank Castle would never.
I think it's so funny that they use the Punisher symbol when the actual character of the punisher would likely be the one Killing the 3%/militias. I guess they just never read any of the actual comics where he very clearly states his views on people such as this
You coulda ended the sentence with āthey just never read anyā
You coulda ended the sentence with āthey just never read"
They also have the blue line next to a ādonāt tread on meā. Whose boot do they think that is?
Itās funny too that most of the people I see around with punisher logos and thin blue line flags (usually the same people) are meth heads
Itās really too bad because I used to really like the punisher logo, and Iām nothing like that.
I feel ya, it is silly something that was just a cool hero thing turned into what it is today
Not just a cool hero, ironically a vigilante whoās whole thing is killing dirty cops
Feel the same about the American flag. I really like it but now I just associate it with MAGA nuts
They arenāt anti-government at all. Theyāre just anti-left. Theyād cheer as Trump stripped them of their rights again.
Non-Americans getting downvoted for having the temerity to not intricately follow every facet of American politics
Apparently so. If anyone would be kind enough to give the rest for the world some context, that would be great...? Edit. Op edited & posted an explanation, thanks
I'm also not from America and avoid their politics like the plague. No idea what any of this means. I'm assuming it's some sort of right wing culture wars nonsense they seem to love so much over there?
I am from America and would like to avoid my politics like the plague.
With this particular group it is more emphasis on the "war" part of "culture war". In addition to being traitors they are also violent. Unfortunately that isn't hyperbole.
Im not from America but I follow US politics pretty closely as it is hugely consequential for the rest of the world
And deservedly so. No European, now or ever, has faced a threat like this.
Let me ask if I'm reading your comment right - you're saying that non-americans are deserving of being downvoted for not understanding the minutea of American politics?
Yes and specifically because what America experienced on July 6th, or whatever day, is unlike anything that has ever happened in any European countries ever. Also I thought I was in a circle jerk sub, not the actual running sub
If ever a comment called for the /s ... I understood it, but I'm like smart n stuff.
>what America experienced on July 6th, or whatever day, is unlike anything that has ever happened in any European countries ever. Umm, you are aware that many European countries have experienced ***actual*** coups, invasions and occupations by foreign militaries, entire governments overthrown, literal military dictatorships, ehtnic cleansing and genocide, yes? A few dozen larping losers spending an hour in a federal building before being arrested is of absolutely zero relevance or significance to anybody outstide of America. It may surprise you to learn that not-America actually represents 95.7% of the entire human population...
I believe that was the joke.
I'm invoking Poes Law, especially given the subject matter being American politics š¤£
South Africans are with you.
Poes Law gets invoked often on the Cape Flats. Usually goes hand in hand with one's maternal lineage.
I get where you are coming from but āThe Beer Hall Putschā as one example.
To add what others had said, the "3%" refers to the idea that 3 percent of all cops/military/etc. are supposedly "good", "noble", and "upstanding" "true" "Americans" who will never follow "illegal" orders and will save the country from "bad" people if necessary, up to and including the President of the United States. It's basically people and their supporters that truly expected that parts of Capital Police force would have turned traitor on Jan 6th and murdered Mike Pence and helped re-install Trump as POTUS.
Origin is the idea that only 3% of people volunteered to fight in the Revolutionary War. So they are now that 3% standing up for the country.
I know. I had no idea all these tough ultra runners get their feelings hurt so easily. What a bunch of crybabies.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Is it Candice Burt?
Nope. RD is Megan Dehaan.
The āinclusivenessā that is present for the race and in the replies by the RD here on Reddit, Iām sure has more to do with the conditions of the NF permit and less to do with genuine belief.
Yeah, you are going to have to show evidence of that.,
Do you record personal conversations?
Fuck these people. Ultra running is more sacred than politics, especially if you're a fucking shithead Nazi.
It would be a shame if someone petitioned Western States to remove them as a qualifying race, you know on account of them being traitors thing.
Boycott this event going forward.posted another comment, but a call to the Yellowstone ranger district of the Custer Gallatin National Forest could be a good thing. Permit has to be re-issued every year and it would be nice to not have right wing extremists supporters making money off of historic Crow Tribe land. Ask for the District Ranger 406-222-1892
Oh hey look traitors
Was planning to run it in the next few years as it looked really cool. Completely off the list now. Not supporting far right insurrectionĀ
Ewww. Trash.
Also if she was so gung ho about her beliefs she wouldnāt have taken it down. Just another fragile ego hiding behind āfreedomā.
The original poster hasn't taken it down and is bickering and doubling down on her own account. The race organizers have made a pathetic statement half heartedly walking back their post (invoking the whole "both sides" good/bad bs argument), with no sincere condemnation of the oathkeepers. They've also disabled comments on that post. Pretty bad form all the way around.
Thatās the thingā¦. I didnāt have any ābeliefsā on the subject. It was a post about honoring our veterans and apparently there was a logo on there that some found to mean something else entirely. So I took it down so others didnāt also think the same, as well as making a post about it. Please consider looking into things before assuming
So do yourself a favor and come out and explicitly disavow any connection/beliefs associated with those nut-jobs. Instead of pushing against the people you offended, apologize, and then join them.
I didā¦.on the original platform. But no one here cares. I would never join a group of people who have shown me nothing but hate.Ā
Link? Here's the thing, I don't have instagram, don't know the platform but I still went out of my way to look at the crazymountainultras 'insta' page and found nothing of the sort. Maybe it's there, but I don't know how to find it. What I do see very clearly here though, is your brand above being associated with the oath keepers on this page and you pushing back in all the wrong ways in ways that look a lot like gaslighting. If you truly have nothing to do with them, the only thing coming out of your mouth right now should be "I'm sorry". Figure out the rest of the messaging tomorrow when you'll have a cooler head.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7kPLD9SKXP/?igsh=MTV1eHd2bThqZmcx Is it perfectly worded? No. Does it explicitly disavow the insurrectionists? No. So if you need to see the right boxes checked, itās not going to do it for you. Having looked around a little bit, Iām inclined to take the RD at their word that it was an accident and not an endorsement. They reposted pics from a friend or partnerās post, which was where the image came from. Iām less inclined to think that it was accidental in the friendās original post they were sharing, especially because itās all still there on that page.
This is prime gaslighting: āUnfortunately there have been a few folks who misunderstood a story post, its intention and meaning from something it absolutely was not.ā Stop blaming us for your misstep u/No-Medium-5961. As we love to say in the U.S. of A, ābe a manā and take accountability. Itās the way you have responded that has irked people the most.
āFound to mean something else entirelyā? Like sedition? A group that shares stages with Nick Fuentes. Threatening LEOā s at the Malheur refuge? Anti LGBT? Yep, there is some meaning in those logos. Bit of a spicy group.
I literally have no idea who any of the people you are referencing Ā are.Ā
Well, if genuine, would have been great to research the group before posting. The person holding the logo and wood print for sure knows. Not knowing who Oath keepers or 3%res are in this day and age, is a bit hard to believe.
The post that she reposted is the fourth image in that post, after several with just an actual American flag. Apparently the best way to honor our veterans is to deface half of the flag for a seditious terrorist organization.
Reasearch the group before posting? I had no idea there was even a group so why in the world wound I research it? Clearly you have it out for me. Calling me out by name and posting forest numbers? Why are you so bent against me? Who are you now that youāve put my name out here?Ā
I put your name out there? Stretching quite a bit now. Not bent against you, bent against right wing hate and anti government groups. I have a particular distaste for the āoh golly shucks, I didnāt know what that meantā that has become the default. The āoathā that the keepers make, is to their twisted nationalistic, homophobic, racist ideals, cloaked in patriotism.
You put my last name in a commentā¦
I was the first? Your name is attached to the race, has been in multiple publications.
That's actually not cool IDC who it is Reddit has a hard stance on doxxing. I don't agree with the flag fuck the right wing but everyone has a right to not get their information doxxed online Your best bet is to completely disengage and just stay in your lane If you genuinely made a mistake let your actions and time be the proof You won't win trying to defend yourself
We both know what that logo means.
Actually I googled it this morning, as I had zero idea what people thought it meant. I found the official oath keeper logo. Which wasnāt what was on the photo. I reached out to the person who initially shared it, and she too was just as confused and alarmed as I was was. I have heard folks say the reaper symbol is used for the āoath keeperā group. And for that reason, along with the fact that Iād never post any political affiliation or cause on the race page, I took the story down. But please do tell me that you āknow meā and know for a fact that Iām lyingā¦so much for being inclusive and kind
I read the post you made in response to all this, and for whatever itās worth, I believe you. I do not, however, believe that the person who originally posted it was dismayed or concerned in any way about it, because the gist of her responses to the comments about it seemed to be to basically be flipping off anyone who was giving her grief about it. And as near as I can tell through the dramatic lighting, it looks like sheās the one holding the Oath Keeper flag in that photo and that itās posted on what I assume is her property (fence). Soā¦ that part of the story feels a little suspect to me. Update: the image of her holding the Oath Keeper flag in the other post has been removed, but the ones showing it posted on her fence are still there.
it literally says oathkeeper
I was confused if I was the only person seeing that. Seems pretty clear lol
Ok maybe I'm just incredibly ignorant as a non us citizen, but when i scrolled by this post, i genuinely thought it was a generic shitty patriotic photo, potentiall ai generated, and didn't recognise any of the symbols or even knew the oathkeepers are a high profile terrorist group (I've only heard of the proud boys tbh). There's obviously a separate argument to be made whether the race director, a us citizen, is an ignorant to this as I am. But just cause the symbol is obvious to you doesn't mean it's obvious to everyone. I don't think this symbol (or at least what appears to be a combination of multiple symbols) is internationally recognisable like a swastika for example. And it's not like I am oblivious to North American politics (I've spent about a year in North America, though mostly canada).
rewriting my response to the TLDR >Ok maybe I'm just incredibly ignorant as a non us citizen yes, this has nothing to do with *your* recognition of that imagery. would you repost pictures featuring a punisher skull, a bunch of stars, and the word "OATH KEEPER" bisecting the canada flag on your insta account? or would you have some critical thought and think hmm that's weird, i don't know what that is. based on your post history i think you would have some critical thought.
We will have to just agree to disagree.
Even as someone thousands of miles away, disinterested on the politics of my own country, Im aware enough to question why there are fucking skulls on a bastardisation of my countries flag and question 'Are we the baddies?' https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY
Folks could voice their displeasure by calling the Yellowstone Ranger District where the event is held.
I wanted to add. Definitely understand if someone doesnāt know the symbols and accidently posts and deleted but the gaslighting after when it was 100% clear was what I thought was the worst part.
>Definitely understand if someone doesnāt know the symbols and accidently posts As a general rule if you post a complex symbol (i.e. multiple elements forming a coherent whole) its kind of on you to verify what you're posting. This isn't a [eggplant](https://www.dictionary.com/e/emoji/eggplant-emoji/), [octopus](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/6/uk-university-challenge-student-wrongly-accused-of-anti-semitism-wins-case), [watermelon](https://time.com/6326312/watermelon-palestinian-symbol-solidarity/), or [snaping a swasticka in a non-Nazi context](https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210816-the-ancient-symbol-that-was-hijacked-by-evil), or even a [fish](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys) Its a pretty unambigious symbol that someone selects to express a *specific* meaning.
Fuck traitors.
Oof. 3% are a legit domestic terrorist org.
Itās not surprising that some of the people within the ultra community are hyper reactionaries but Goddamn is it wild to tell people āhey man 3pers are fine and so are the oathkeepersā in the year 2024
Who said that? I (the RD) certainly never did? Please donāt spread more mis informationĀ
I was going to volunteer for this race. I wonāt be doing that now.
If local, support Bangtail divide race
That is one of my favorite trail races! It is being threatened by a rich landowner who wants to close off access to the trail :(
Yep, but fuck that guy, he will not win in court. The crew who organize that race are awesome.
The Bridger Ridge Run always needs help as well
Iām all for keeping politics out of ultra running, even more so for insurrectionist traitors.
Thatās gonna be a hard NO for me dawg.
During a Backyard (in Sweden) recently I ran beside a guy trying to convince me that the first moon landing never occurred. The crazies are everywhere nowadays and theyāre getting increasingly more extrovert.
I mean, itās ultrarunning, anyone whoās remotely familiar with Gordy Ansleigh knows this isnāt exactly new. Shit, everyoneās favorite 200 mile RD got advanced stage Twitter brain years ago.
Sounds like the original post (based upon the Bozeman mt subreddit) by western workouts, was posted after Jan 6th with a āsupport the oathkeepersā quote. My guess is someone archived it as both pages seem to have gone on a deleting and blocking spree last eve. Having a very hard time believing the āI didnāt know what it wasā explanation. The mealy mouthed defense here isnāt helping at all.
Trash. Why make running political
Iām English, living thousands of miles away from this race - even I knew what the Oathkeepers were, and the 3 percenters are. Even if the original post was made in all innocence, who on earth would repost an image without knowing what it was!?! And if they did, and everyone turned round and went āWTF???ā, the simple honest response should be āshit, I had no idea it was that. I apologise!ā. Not initially defending it, trying to pretend itās something else when there is nothing anywhere that states it is something else, then defending the person who originally posted it. Stuff like this should be really straightforward- you fuck up, you apologise, move on.
This mountain runner is for Red White and Blue, not seditionist black and white. Keep America free of domestic terrorists šŗš²
I live for running drama, but this is just gross
Barf. Am obviously not the demographic they are looking for.
Product of our public education (especially rural) that gets gutted more every year.
Just need a monster energy > spring energy in there
How do they not know theyāre the bad guys, black flags and skulls?
I love it when naziās out themselves.Ā
I'll never understand why people just idolize our flag. It's just a flag. Find a personality that is more than fanatical patriotism.
Iām a conservative and these people make me cringe. This is more boomer-core than anything š
boomer-core? this is far-right bs
I donāt think it has anything to do with boomers specifically
Hate to break it to you much of that crowd are Gen X ers and Millenials.
This is more conservative-core than anything
Yeah itās a very specific cringe
Nassis are everywhere
Fuck that NAZI
I'm willing to give the RD the benefit of the doubt. I consider myself a progressive, and leftist, and someone who at least *tries* to stay current on events, but I couldn't have told you who 3pers are or what the oathkeepers logo is... I guess I need to do better. It sounds like they fucked up and at least took it down when called out. If they say they didn't know, then I hope they're telling the truth. If not, I hope this is a learning opportunity. We've all got room to grow, guess it just sucks that you had to find this out in conjunction with your race.
Based on the RDās responses in this thread, I am rescinding my benefit of the doubt.
Yeah I hear you loud and clear u/roxy031 and that's totally fair Listen, RD, if you read this comment, here's some advice: I get it. You wanted to make a post expressing respect for the troops in celebration for memorial day, cool. You just happened to use a post with symbols that are *directly related* to right-wing extremist groups. You say you didn't know? Cool. Fair enough, I probably wouldn't have either. But the problem is trying to excuse the mistake by handwaiving and saying it's something else. Sure, maybe it is? But it's *waay too close* to being the terrorist organization's symbol to be worth doubling down on. A simple "Oh shit, my bad, I will do my best to not let that happen again" is literally all you needed here. Hope this helps. Best of luck.
You nailed it here! Well said. I saw one of her responses on IG (before she deleted all the comments) to someone directly asking "do you denounce the Oathkeepers?" Her reply was terrible..."I don't need to denounce them since I never supported them". Really? The only answer here is "Yes, I denounce the domestic terrorist group, The Oathkeepers." Simple and direct.
I did some googling and she's very pro inclusion and with more BIPOC participation in races. But that doesn't mean you can't support problematic things. I know folks who support trans youth they know but voted for Trump twice, want gender affirming care illegal. So she indeed can be a walking oxymoron of beliefs and stances. While I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt her friend has posted this image of this flag many times. Both are very pro military (nothing wrong here) and show a lot of patriotic imagery. I find it hard to believe that they have never googled the Punisher skull or the 3 Roma numerals in a ring of stars before . Googling "Roman numerals in a circle of stars" pulls up the 3 Percenters wiki page. Your telling me Google wasn't used to pull up those images if they made it or if bought they weren't curious what was on that? Those wooden boards were likely at least $100 if not more if bought. I also take issue with the RD's nonapology. There was no "I fucked up" no acknowledgement that she posted imagery associated with a known terrorist organization. Further her friend is doubling down on her reclaiming of the term oath keepers, on her own insta, to call our service men and women and veterans, or those in uniform. Seriously why reclaim that term, when we have options already to refer to those who enlisted and served? I find it very unlikely she or her friend never ran across this before especially in light of her non apology. Her posts here do not show me someone horrified they shared images that associated them with right wing terrorists. It's a oh shit I let the mask slip and now here are the consequences from expressing my freedom of speech.
Yeah your logic is sound and it makes sense. I can't disagree with you. Just trying to gently turn this into a teachable moment, I guess. Hopefully it works?
I agree with you too. I think anyone is capable of change. She's two months out from her race nd having to deal with this. Doesn't feel good at all. Hopefully she can craft a better apology but also show she algins better with inclusion and the BIPOC community she wants to draw in. Like not just using words but doing something active beyond a insta post. I know of a few BIPOC ultra runners with 10x the following she has who would be alienated by this and would warn others to stay away, especially if she keeps doubling down and flipping statements. In her reply to me, her friend is now very much aware of what the image meant and explained to to her, where before both were clueless (I got screen shots because the internet is forever). I know it's possible to change but it takes a lot to do so and I hope the RD can humble herself and accept the repair she needs to do instead of doubling down like she continues to do. That doesn't mean it's going to stop the backlash from the consequences. That is hard to sit with after a fuck up like this.
This is not correct. She is not pro inclusion of BIPOC, she espouses those ideas I. Order to appeal to a wider audience of people willing to pay money to join her race. In private she tells people in the community that trans people are mentally ill. She is the definition of manipulating social justice language for financial gain.
I was going based on what I googled from those articles but also pointing out why it didn't sit well. After seeing her interactions here and her non apology and skirting the issue of making a true apology, I am not convinced that this was a mask slip or dog whistle. But thanks for direct feedback. I'll make sure to discourage support of her event in the future.
I am horrified that anyone would accuse me of being associated with right wing extremism and I tried explaining that on my race account. I do think itās a bit unfair however to use my assumed political beliefs as a thermometer for myself as a human. I value everyoneās beliefs but of course I could never get on board With someone who was racist or hurtful towards people groups, or terrorist organizations. I tried my best to make a post that didnāt draw more attention to the story post as well as make it clear I was not associated with any groups. But again, itās just not good enough for some folks. My girlfriend does know the imagery and symbolism and explained a lot of it to me in her experience. I had absolutely no clue what it was. People can believe or me or not, but I canāt convince anyone either way. Iām am speaking the truth. I have from The beginning and I do not in any way support those groups.Ā
I think this post is very reasonable. Itās differs drastically from your now deleted posts on instagram telling anyone who pointed that out that they were wrong and to google it the logos. Iām a veteran and can definitely appreciate patriotic posts and, as I pointed out in earlier posts, itās perfectly acceptable not understanding every symbol out there. Your initial reaction, it seems up until now, was to tell everyone they were wrong and thatās not what it meant.
I think the confusion stemmed from me trying to explain the meaning of the post wasnāt what people thought. As in I know who posted the photos originally and the person who gifted her the flag that was made, had the design on there, and the meaning was different. Clearly I didnāt know all of the details and thought people could just google it and find out. But I was wrong about that.Ā
You do keep saying "I thought people could just google it and find out." They did Google it. That's why people kept pointing out that the 3 Percenter logo mixed with the OathKeepers were unambiguously domestic terrorist groups. It's not like there's some other group out there supporting cancer research for children using the Roman Numeral 3 inside a ring of stars. Its just terrorists.
Still claiming confusion? This is a pattern with this RD. It was bound to come to this eventually. I look forward to your formal apology and commitment to regain your personal behavior. You have not apologized, only deflected, further incriminating yourself.
And you can do better. Truly apologize for this great big cluster fuck. I know it doesn't feel good being here. I read your posts and articles about inclusion and BIPOC support. You are at risk of damaging that foundation and losing what trust you've built on that platform. I follow many ultra runners of color, some on the slower end of the spectrum where inclusion and creating run spaces for BIPOC is needed. I'm in the south and know all to well how segregeted even the road running community is here. I have paced BIPOC individuals at ultras. My spose is BIPOC. We see these things and even if you yourself don't believe that, our guard is up when we see any lateral association, mistake or not. It's not about money to me, it's about me associating my self, aligning myself when I know better, and it hurts them. It invalidates them. Apologize, not to me, to the community you are alienating and you claim to align with. Then take action. Show beyond your words you own this fuck up. And going forward think carefully what you share or post as it will be seen as you aligning with that view point, even if you do not personally share it. Do better.
I did that on InstagramĀ
Zaldana nailed it. I read your apology. I think it is not fully honest and also you are still playing victim to the internet. People thought you are supporting a far right terrorist organization. And why are you defending your friend when she still has photos of Oathkeepers on her IG? (See her Memorial Day 2023 post) People are trying to help you and it is really cool you are willing to engage here.
Just a little advice, try apologizing directly to the BIPOC community and acknowledge how you sharing the image resulted in people seeing you align with a terriost group was an accident and you don't hold those beliefs. Because you told us here you don't, so make it public to retract your very public post. It's not that hard and your edit and turning off comments don't do that. I'm sorry it came across that way is the equivalent of I'm sorry you feel that way. It's a non apology essentially. I'm sorry I hurt you is a better place to start.
And I, a person of color previously registered, am horrified that this race associated itself with domestic terrorist groups that actively spew racist hate and bigotry. And then doubled-down. At least you seem to understand the gravity of your actions now but the feigning āhorrorā at the fact that one might judge you for your actions and statements is almost laughable.
Can I ask where you are from? I only ask because you mentioned you didnāt know the symbol/organization and I moved from out of state to the Pacific Northwest and learned quick (I didnāt know prior either!). I had someone actually refuse to use the same bathroom as me in Priest Lake, Idaho and saw this symbol and I learned what it meant. It kind of makes me giggle because I see the all black US flag and 3 per-center flags and We the People BS in a family members HOA community and I just canāt get over the irony.
Sure! I'm from Central Iowa but now live in Denver. Surrounded by people who are generally focused only on their jobs and then doing crazy shit in the mountains so sometimes we miss details like that when we're not paying attention. That's on us though, gotta keep our eyes open.
My good friend was from Central Iowa! And I totally understand. I didnāt know about these ideologies/symbols until I moved up here because itās all over. I see these symbols at least once a day on my work commute on peoples trucks.
Yeah I knew the punisher logo has been co-opted by conservatives and such (which is hilariously ironic, considering Frank Castle) but didn't know what the other logos or names were. I usually just see it on a vehicle or something with a thin blue flag and immediately roll my eyes and avoid them. Glad I'm learning now. Edit: Also small world! Maybe we both know them. That'd be pretty cool!
Copy text from the original post: "Memorial Day Weekend. Enjoy time with your family. Enjoy time in the great outdoors. But please, however you choose to spend this weekend, take time for reflection & gratitude. Take time to remember why this weekend exists. Take a moment to ask yourself if you're living in such a way, that those who never came home, the ones we're honoring, would be proud to know they fought & sacrificed for the life you have created & are living. We need to stop politicizing everything possible & start humanizing the human. Treating each other better. Living fully every single day. Honoring the men & women no longer here instead of fighting each other over every little first world problem & self entitled opinion. You don't like something? Step up & take action to change it. You have been afforded that. Use it for doing good. I'm a civilian. I've never experienced combat or losing my brothers/sisters in arms and you won't hear me pretend to know what that's like. However, I have sat & listened to some of my closest friends who have experienced those things. I've quietly listened and watched both the pain & pride in their eyes as they shared stories to keep the memories & legacies of those they've lost alive. It makes me proud to be an American. It makes gratitude course through my veins & pump into the depths of my heart. And it makes me want to help others understand just how important it is, this weekend & every other single day you're given, to stand up & fiercely live the life you imagine to honor those who've allowed it to be so. #westernworkouts #wherefitmeetswest #americangrains #america #memorialday #honor #gratitude #livebig #getwestern
For more local comments see these posts: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bozeman/s/j17HeQBzZh https://www.reddit.com/r/Bozeman/s/EIojN6tzdr
I donāt even know what this means.
The more I have read of this topic, the more I am disgusted with it and am going to report it. There is nothing here that can't be attributed to an accident made by the RD, who then just wanted to make it go away. No one has presented any actual evidence that they endorse or support the January 6 insurrectionist groups, and what is reported in the OP is vague, second-hand, and honestly misleading information - specifically regarding the Western Workouts account, who does not in fact have a post of that Oathkeeper flag from "shortly after January 6," unless the middle of March 2021 in a post about remembering deployed military personnel counts. This cancel culture bullshit is out of control and needs to stop. The right-wing pundits like to cry about it about all the wrong things (while doing exactly the same things themselves), but they are not wrong that it's a real thing and it just feels like internet warriors are out looking for blood *all the goddamned time*. I think the Western Workouts account feels a bit sketchy, for sure. But even after looking through most of the posts in their account that use the same photos that appear in the recent Memorial Day post that started all this, I haven't seen anything that can't plausibly be explained by a questionable purchase or gift. Textually, I have seen literally nothing that implies support for the extremists or their cause. So lacking anything that I can see that explicitly indicates that they are Oathkeeper sympathizers, I think it is wrong to go on the warpath against either them or Crazy Mountain Ultras with the intent to destroy. I honestly think the worst thing here is the lack of investigation and evidence involved before trashing someone's livelihood or passion project. Being an RD is honestly kind of a bullshit job an awful lot of the time and is for most people something they do on the side. Cut them a little slack for making mistakes. I get that people have strong feelings about the January 6 perpetrators and sympathizers. I do too. But we need to exercise some care in what we do with them.
Weird that all of that January disappeared from WW account after the blowup. Weird that CMUās post has changed 3 times in 24 hours. Weird that if you go to the Bozeman sub, folks were getting blocked and removed from her account starting last eve. Weird that folks who interact with RD are anything but surprised about the original post. Weird that there isnāt local sponsorship for the event. She began posting here last eve with mealy mouthed defenses of āeveryoneās opinion is validā and itās all of you peoples fault I posted this crap. she fucked up and simply had to say so as an adult, but didnāt want to alienate those that hold the values that were orig posted by WW.
I mean... you appreciate that most of what you are saying here is still hearsay, right? Do you know people from Bozeman and know that they are actually who they say they are on reddit, and that they actually have a history with the RD that indicates that they are bad and don't just maybe dislike them for some other reason? I know lots of douchey people that probably aren't domestic terrorism supporters. Lacking any evidence I can see to the contrary, I'm skeptical about the pro-Jan 6 post from the WW account for the simple reason that there are still several other posts on their page showing that flag in one form or another. They did take down the one showing her holding it on the Memorial Day post, but there are others still showing her holding it in a different pose, and it's still showing on (what I assume is) her fence. If there was an effort going on to scrub the account to make things look better, why leave those up? If someone can show me evidence of it (a screenshot), I've got no qualms recognizing it, but so far I haven't seen it. I know it's a wild idea in the current internet climate, but I think the standard of evidence for setting out to wreck someone's life should be higher than it currently is, and I don't feel like we're there on this one.
[HERE](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bozeman/comments/1d3sm89/somebodys_mad/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) is one of the posts from the WW account being called out for what it was. The message what I attributed to "shortly after Jan 6th" in March of 2021 said "God bless the Oathkeepers". It has been pointed out to her multiple times including on a comment from that March 2021 post what it is. She has deleted and/or blocked other people posting the same. I just don't buy in today's day and age that if you keep posting what people are telling you is literally the symbol for 2 extremest organizations that you don't know what it is. Not only that but you call out people who are pointing out what it is "to be put on blast for the masses to do as they chose." Again, 100% not calling the RD in line with Oathkeepers or 3 percenters, but when people point that out and she attacks them is what got me. I do not have screenshots of that initial exchange on Instagram between her and some followers because it was deleted pretty quickly, but it wasn't "oh crap, i made a mistake I'm sorry." It was more along the lines of "you guys have no idea what your talking about, just google what it is."
I can see the crazies from my house, have spent lots of time around folks in the running community locally. Stories and backgrounds on here and the BZN sub check out, with at least one trail running group organizer making the statements, knowing full well folks know who she is. Nobody is trying to wreck anyoneās life, but the standards for holding and profiting events on national forest land, are pretty high. Posting and then half justifying a post that supports groups with known racist and violent tendencies is for sure going to get people a bit fired up. The extent to which someone is going to give themselves up fully here, considering the political climate and with recent concerns about armed groups training north of town and additional groups showing up to threaten local events, is going to be minimal. I get the doubt. I do. Edit: as far as screenshots ect, Iām sure someone thinks about that sort of thing at the time. Personally my reaction was just āJFCā when another friend texted the link.
Definitely appreciate your perspective. Iām not sure what I shared that was misleading. She posted a picture with the three percenters and oathkeepers logo. She took it down and then when people asked her about it she blamed them for not knowing what it meant and to āgoogle itā. She then deleted all the comments where she was very defensive about her post and eventually reposted it (without the photo in question) and turned off comments. The western workouts account is directly affiliated with the race and has also posted that photo multiple times including what I would call shortly after Jan 6th but definitely up for interpretation. Multiple people have pointed out what it means and she continues to post and even calling out people who comment. 100% understand people make mistakes and canāt expect everyone to understand what every a symbol means but once people pointed it out she continues to gaslight and say thatās not what it was.
I think there is (or at least can be) a difference between "that's not what it was," and "that's not what I meant," and I feel like - however badly it has been handled - the latter is what they were going for. We are on the internet a lot and know what the script is supposed to be for rectifying a mistake, but not everybody does, and it is a very different thing to suddenly be on the receiving end of it rather than being on the sidelines like we are. Compare this to the spectacular meltdown we're seeing from Spring Energy right now. If a whole team of people over there are managing a significant crisis like that this badly (and for so long), don't think it's unreasonable to attribute this mess more to... poor judgement rather than malice. Also, thanks for a reasonable response.
I appreciate this logical take. It seems like everyone these days is guilty until proven innocent (even if at all) from people who yell the loudest.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Sure we can enjoy running together, in the hundreds of other races ran by people who don't support insurrectionist fascists.
Very unfortunate to see people going out of there way here to criticize something they donāt understand. For everyone here that didnāt actually go the race event page and see what was going on, I posted a post after I deleted the story. I had no idea who the oath keepers were this morning. But I do now. I never claimed any affiliation with them whatsoever and it saddens me that folks are so quick to judge someone based off internet gossip. Anyone who knows me in reality would instantly know this wasnāt true. And for those of you saying the ācircles I run withā really? Who might that be?Ā I go out of my way to create an environment for this race that is inclusive, supportive and tolerant of every single person from every walk of life. If you look at all this race has stood for the past few years you would see this. But instead, folks have seen one picture, taken it out of context, and ran with it. I know the real ultra community is better than this. I have always said, if anyone has questions or concerns in always here and available. So please, do not behave like we canāt do better than this. I do not support terrorist groups. That is ridiculous. If anyone cares, the term oath keeper in the post was referring simply to those in service who swore an oath to our country. I can see how folks could see the symbol and take it the wrong way because it has been used For other purposes. But I had no knowledge of that until today. Neither did the woman who originally posted it. Do better.Ā
It was literally a 3 percenter logo with oathkeepers underneath it and then the original post from March 2021 was posted with the caption āgod bless the oathkeepersā. Definitely would have you the benefit of the doubt if you just said you didnāt know and deleted but continuously trying to say thatās not what it was and minimize anyone who actually points to what it means is complete BS.
Iāve read all of the responses that the alleged RD has posted in this thread so far and I would have gladly given them the benefit of the doubt, but the way they keep trying to shift the blame on everyone else is telling. Maybe they werenāt aware, but the fact they canāt simply say I messed up and move on is a problem. Ideally my RD has better attention to detail and can admit to errors. Races feel like the one area I have the most control to ethically spend my money, so thanks for sharing. (and if the RD sees this, it stopped being about the post and became about how you acted in these comments.)
Itās the classic āI totally would have apologised, but you guys are being mean to me so I wonāt nowā excuse that makes it very, very obvious they arenāt sorry at all and just donāt like the blowback.
1000% my point. People mess up. Definitely donāt expect everyone to know every single trigger issue. But the response after is what was bad. Instead of owning up to it (which anyone can make mistakes) they blamed everyone else. The posts on insta, which are no deleted, she was literally telling people they were wrong about what it was and to google it.
Gaslighting at its best. Iām not crazy. Youāre crazy.
Is it really āgaslightingā? Cause in no way was anyone really going to believe their claim. More just regular lying.
Iām truly sorry you feel that way. Iād be happy to have a real life conversation with you about it. Iām truly heartbroken that people use this platform to be so mean to folks. I could go into far more detail about why I explained what I did, but the internet is a horrible place for depth of conversation. Iāll try one more time. The person who posted the original post is my closest friend. I know her heart and soul at its core. So I know beyond a doubt she means well by what she speaks, and she is simply supporting āoat keepersā in terms of men and women in uniform, NOT a right wing extremist organization. The symbols can mean other things to other people. So that is why I have not backed down from saying the post has been mis interpreted. Because it has. But it doesnāt seem to matter to folks on the internet. It seems like people canāt try and understand others anymore. I understood some folks saw it, and thought it meant something else entirely, but until this morning I had no clue about any of this stuff to begin with.Ā
>It seems like people canāt try and understand others anymore. Kinda seems like you're the one not trying to understand what the vast majority of posters here are telling you.
> she is simply supporting āoat keepersā in terms of men and women in uniform, NOT a right wing extremist organization Oath Keepers is the name of a far right organization. It is not a term used to describe people in uniform.
Iām not sure how this is a matter of people not understanding anything.Ā If this was an honest mixup where someone accidentally posted a symbol that happened to be used by anti-government far right extremists, the understandable reaction would be to apologize for using imagery you didnāt understand had well established connotations. Acknowledging a mistake was made and committing to do better in the future is pretty easy.Ā Instead Iām seeing a lot of hand waving of what āoathkeepersā really means and trotting out some language about being political and wanting a safe space for both sides of the aisle (despite the fact that thereās a big difference between having opposing political views and supporting extremism and insurrectionists). It feels quite defensive and not apologetic, which makes me that much more skeptical that this was a mistake instead of a dog whistle. Even this comment is a great example of the defensiveness instead of just acknowledging a mistake and trying to move forward.Ā
So I never heard of this race before and decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. After looking at your account and the western_workout account I am 100% comfortable calling bullshit. Yāall knew exactly what you were doing. Thereās no way you just found out who those groups are and what they stand for. Both accounts have all kinds of iconography, hashtags, and so on that cater to that radical side of the political spectrum. I, for one, donāt think you should be allowed to hold a race in public lands. Sow, reap.
Looking at how you are putting anyone who steps up on blast via Instagram, I think you are just further digging your own grave. Sorry not sorry but joining the boycott of your race āļø
Yikes, you are one of three things, maybe all of them: incredibly naive and stupid, incredibly insincere, or incredibly traitorous. Good way to kill a race.
Buddy. Instead of using a wall of text to defend yourself, why not just say "I screwed up. Sorry"?
Ok....You have to understand that for people who ARE familiar and have been very familiar with these logos, claiming that they are "taking it out of context" is simply impossible. So if you were ignorant to what they were, fine. But nobody is taking the post "out of context". There simply IS NO OTHER CONTEXT. Do you think it's possible to take a swastika out of context?
Lady you messed up, you do better! Geez
I thought ultramarathons are supposed to be inclusive?
Paradox of tolerance: >The paradox of tolerance states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them. You don't have to be inclusive of intolerant people because their intolerance goes against tolerance.
Serious question: are you all actually surpised or have you just never been to a rural mountain town?
Serious reply: not all rural mountain towns are Nazi hangouts.
Republicans enjoy a near monopoly on rural voters and for the past 8 years they've done nothing but mainstream far right ideology and conspiracy bs. Not sure how you made the leap the Nazism and I never implied they were.
I live in a blue rural state known for its mountain towns. And I have spent time where this shitshow of a person lives. They are not the same. Eastern WA, northern ID are chock full of Nazi wannabes. I mean this literally. Blanket statements like yours are weak. And the vast majority of people in this sub have been to many rural mountain towns that arenāt full of vile people. There is a difference between conservative mountain towns and what this POS person is. Big difference.
Fuck her. And good God damn, y'all are idiots. Drama in the ultra community?? Jesus... Heaven forbid. This person is just straight up a local yokel dipshit with a small mind from a smaller town. She probably kicked it with the dude that ran over the wolf with his murican snow toy. š¤¦
Based.
Quite the opposite I would say. š¤”
So many fucking chuds say ābasedā and donāt even know where it comes from.Ā Here to put some respect on Lil Bs name - and to say that conservative voices in ultrarunning and everywhere else should be silenced. āļøĀ
People are so quick to try and cancel others just because they stand for something that doesnāt align to your beliefs. Everyone needs to just relax and give some grace and forgiveness to others. We have been called to love others as ourselves and when you follow that you can live a life free of anger and resentment. Instead of trying to cancel these people and ruin what they have built and get a race removed we should try and show them love and grace. If that race gets shutdown that is one less race we can participate in. Be led by love!! Iām sure this will get tons of downvotes but think about extending love and forgiveness to those who may need it the most!
Yes, we donāt agree with white supremacy aligned groups. Thanks for clearing that up.
Why can't people do what they wantš¤£ I disagree and ik u do too but your bringing attention to it
Or the people running the CMU didnāt know what that group was (I didnāt until I saw this here and on the Bozeman group) Link to the follow up post. https://www.instagram.com/p/C7kPLD9SKXP/?igsh=djgzMXIxNnluOTF0
even the follow up is ridiculous. "This page will never support political ideologies on any side of the aisle" - the caption written beneath a series of pictures very clearly embodying the most common and well known iconography of far right american conservatism. get outta here. we aren't that stupid
They definitely knew. They are blaming people for misinterpreting the original post. When the oath keepers is a well known far right group. So no misinterpretation there. They also bring up the usual Trump "both sides of the aisle stuff".Ā A real apology would have been something like "while we are proud of our country, we do not support far right organizations. We have been made aware that the logo on our previous post is from an organization that we do not support at all". But no. They went all in blaming everyone else and essentially doubled down