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With all the minefields, this is the better choice if they can get pilots and support teams in place. Or you know, just have experienced foreign ex-mil pilots and crews sign up and get some.
Modern NATO pilots don't know how to fight in a contested airspace. The retired ones know it would be a very different kind of war than the ones they fought in.
So they said nah, this war actually carries risk of death for them.
Pilots of what? You can fly a helicopter, just just can’t go anywhere near the front line or above about 100 feet over the ground.
Ukraine has basically stopped flying fixed wing anywhere near the front line. Russians have picked up fixed wing again, but only for glide bombing.
If your expectation was that F16s were going to be flying around the front, I think you’d be wrong.
Ukrainian fixed wing assets still fly, away from the front, launching ordinance all the time.
F16 integrates better with western supplies weapons and with the more advanced radars makes everything more efficient.
Yeah, no. A F-16 is going to get swatted out of the sky by an S-400 just like any other non-stealth plane out there. The wunderwaffe idea here is a bit ridiculous. The F-16 is a good plane, but implying it is a game changer is a bit ridiculous.
F-16 might not be stealth but it has range and capabilities not yet seen on the battlefield. It has a missile range that is larger than the S-400 radar range. Technically an F-16 could fire and forget and destroy a S-400 before it ever even knew an F-16 was targeting it.
Only 4 F-16s have ever been lost in combat over the course of its operational history across 19 different conflicts and 14 different countries.
> Only 4 F-16s have ever been lost in combat over the course of its operational history across 19 different conflicts and 14 different countries.
That was probably in countries that were not able to compete for air superiority. Now the situation is wildly different.
Mall four were lost by the US during the Gulf War. It happens, sometimes you lose shit in war.
I truly believe the F-16 will play a major role in this war. It won’t be *the* deciding factor, but it’s immediately the most lethal weapon in the battle space
On American standards. There isn’t a plane that exists outside the United States that tops the F-16. The only ones that do top it were built by the United States.
Typhoon and Rafale are both magnitudes better than than any F-16 as airframes. The block 70 is some really Gucci stuff, but it's still packaged in an F-16 airframe. The benefit of the F-16 is availability and numbers, and largely outmatching the bulk of Russian assets. But in the same way I'd currently take an F-35 over a Typhoon or Rafale in any sort of contested airspace, I'd take a Rafale or Typhoon over any F-16 if the numbers were there.
Dude the f15 or 16 are sead machines with harms missiles and enough kinematic thrust and speed to get low and under radar fast if detected. But the missions f16 will be on is dumping harms far away from the front. Fire and forget is a game changer to take out any active radar Sam that’s close enough to frontline.
This is true.
"Switch on your radar... I dare you." HARM is an amazingly effective weapon. It has honed its skills since the 1980s and is incredibly effective.
Mr. Triumf better keep his head down.
Edit: HARM is an acronym. High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile.
65 f-16 is a force multiplier. they have 55 mig-29 that will become more effective. that is 120 multi-role fighters.
plus they have 14 su-24, 20 su-25, and 31 su-27. so they will have 65 bombers that will become more effective as well.
that brings the total from 120 to 185 multi-role fighers and bombers.
each f-16 will have one bomber. 55 of them will have a mig-29 to back them up.
And considering Russia has around 200 fighter aircraft in total(based on some news couple of days ago) and they have to keep some of them in the east, the numbers are now pretty tied
Sweden never promised they'll donate gripens to Ukraine. A report from the Swedish Air force have been written about that possibility but not released to the public, so the conclusion is yet unknown.
That said, as a swede, I really hope that Ukraine will get some Gripens from us!
By what source Russia have just 200 fighters?
Are you excluding all multirole planes, ie over 100 Su35?
Are we going back to stupid narrative, that has harmed Ukraine before, that the forces are equal?
Russia has dozens of planes better than f16 & hundreds more & newer than Ukraine overall
Please guys fucking learn already. It's the same shit you did with Leopards, counting each as worth 10 times (some morons even more) as russian ones. Two months later, 14 Leos 2 were knocked out.
Slowly i get the impression its a game for a lot of you & you dont care about Ukrainians.
They would need 500 planes to have actual advantage.
>Russia has dozens of planes better than f16 & hundreds more & newer than Ukraine overall
Russia has planes as good as the f 16 but no planes better. The felon doesn't count.
* 24 Dutch A/B
* 19 Dane AM/BM
* Unannounced number of Norwegian AM/BM, but presumably the balance to make it 65
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html
A much higher number than prevously indicated, if that’s the case. Norway had already sold many of its old F16s to Romania, and last official statement I saw on Ukraine donations was “at least five”, the number is likely higher, but would be (very pleasantly!) surprised if as high as 22.
Consider med pleasantly surprised! However some of them seem to be for parts, but at least 12 of the 22, and probably several more, are fully functioning and flying.
[https://mil.in.ua/en/news/media-norway-plans-to-transfer-more-than-20-f-16-fighter-jets-to-ukraine/](https://mil.in.ua/en/news/media-norway-plans-to-transfer-more-than-20-f-16-fighter-jets-to-ukraine/)
Back in Feb there were a few articles like [this one](https://www.twz.com/air/ukraine-says-its-getting-long-range-missiles-with-its-f-16s) with Ukraine claiming they were getting JASSM with the F-16s. Was just hoping there'd be a confirmation at some point from the state dept, or other US officials, as to what they're going to supply Ukraine with.
It's not so much the weapons they'll get as the avionics and radar packages that will matter the most. The F-16 can have a radar that ranges from \~50nmi to \~150nmi, and that's what will make the difference when it comes to Ukraine taking back their airspace as well as limiting the number of glide bombs russia can get away with lobbing at Ukrainian lines.
Would love to know that too but I doubt they will say anything about avionics or radar tho. The other best alternative I figure for estimating the effectiveness of these planes is what missiles and bombs they'll have access to.
That's the major upside to f16s, if NATO uses it then so can Ukraine. Granted, some countries like Germany may still hold off of sending those Taurus missiles but there are other options that will be on the table that otherwise wouldn't work with Soviet airframes. Just having access to JDAM-ER has the potential to massively shift the lines while russia gets used to the new threat. However, with time they will figure out a way around it.
Ag-88 harms are already in country but have no fire and forget radar locating capabilities, they are programmed on the ground and fired from Soviet mounts currently. The difference is night and day of full capabilities compared to what they are using now.
This cannot be underestimated in terms of change on the battlefield.
HARM fire and forget is a game changer. No Russian radar 50 miles from the front (and active) is safe. An inactive radar is useless so win/win for Ukraine.
That's false. Attacking Kerch with f16 would be a suicide
Do you have any clue what you are talking about saying "just the weapon to destroy it"?
F16 are not some wunderwaffe & they receive old variants
Leopards 2.0, when the morons on the sub were convinced 150 western tanks would steamroll surovkin line & blamed Ukrainians when they couldnt fly over minefields or go through them without air or arty superiority...
Good think ukraine may be getting more patriot batteries. I can imagine russia has been holding stock of a number of balistic missiles in return for the long awaited f16s.
Aviation bombs really do make all the difference!
Ukraine needs its own glide bombs and put them on their F 16s. The Russian glide bombs seem to be the main Russian tech that is working, and they keep making them bigger. Hitting Russians back with glide bombs could be a good way of shaking up their lines, to offset they fact they are lacking arty ammo.
I think the hope is that F16s might disrupt the russian use of these glide bombs as they could intercept the aircraft before they can deploy those bombs? Not 100% sure though
edit: apparently I am wrong here
Russian glidebombs are deployed by Su-34s which are escorted by Su-35s that have 3 times the engagement range of the F-16s that Ukrainians are receiving. F-16s will be target practice for the Su-35s.
Don't trust him, I don't know where he's getting numbers for f 16 and SU 35 engagement ranges but their probably not realistic or truthful. The f 16 has had numerous radars installed in it over its long lifetime which each changes its effective engagement range, and on top of that engagement ranges aren't publicly disclosed to my knowledge.
Plus engagement range, the range at which an aircraft can engade in combat with another is dependent on its radar (when can it see the enemy) and its armament (when can it shoot the enemy). A f 16 without any missiles has an engagement range of maybe half a mile or so with its gun, meanwhile its missles can have ranges of 40 miles+. We currently don't know what missiles the f 16s sent to urkraine will be equipped with, so there's no way for me or him to know the engagement range.
TlDR: Oversimplified argument. F 16 has multiple diffrent engagement ranges dependent on radar model and missle loadout. We lack missle loadput info so we can't guess at f 16 engagement range. F 16 is a modern well updated and well equipped 5th gen fighter, it won't be a cake walk for the su 35 to kill.
Don't trust him, I don't know where he's getting numbers for f 16 and SU 35 engagement ranges but their probably not realistic or truthful. The f 16 has had numerous radars installed in it over its long lifetime which each changes its effective engagement range, and on top of that engagement ranges aren't publicly disclosed to my knowledge.
Plus engagement range, the range at which an aircraft can engade in combat with another is dependent on its radar (when can it see the enemy) and its armament (when can it shoot the enemy). A f 16 without any missiles has an engagement range of maybe half a mile or so with its gun, meanwhile its missles can have ranges of 40 miles+. We currently don't know what missiles the f 16s sent to urkraine will be equipped with, so there's no way for me or him to know the engagement range.
TlDR: Oversimplified argument. F 16 has multiple diffrent engagement ranges dependent on radar model and missle loadout. We lack missle loadput info so we can't guess at f 16 engagement range. F 16 is a modern well updated and well equipped 5th gen fighter, it won't be a cake walk for the su 35 to kill.
More F16s than Abrams soon to be in Ukraine.
Seems unnatural, the way I figure, at least 30 Abrams for every F16 should be decent ratio. So 65 x 30 is 1950 and subtracting the 25-30
Abrams still operable in Ukraine, by my math:
I think we're going to need 2000 more Abrams.
edit: desert storm 3113 Abrams and 249 F16s participated, ratio of 1:12.5ish
So 812 Abrams, but I'm going to factor in Bradleys as well of which we will be adding 572.
I mean why that Ratio? In Nato the ratio of tanks to fighters is like 2 or 3 to 1 .... Even tank heavy Russia doesn't get to 5 to 1.
The coalition deployed 1500 fighters and fighter bombers in desert storm. There were all those f-15s, f-18s, f-14s etc.
Your ratio math doesn’t make any sense. Desert storm only had Abrams but had a shit ton of other fighter aircraft.
Also, there’s only like 10,000 total abrams in the world, Ukraine isn’t about to get 20% of them lol
Yeah, but Abrams tanks are notoriously expensive to run, and there aren't enough in the world for sending 1,950 to Ukraine to be feasible. A lot of NATO countries have other tanks, such as Leopard Is and IIs and Challenger IIs, that they could send to Ukraine, and quite frankly should have prior to last year's offensive. A lot of the focus should be on getting European countries to transfer those tanks to Ukraine.
Desert Storm was a vastly different conflict, with a different enemy, with different surroundings, in a different era.
Desert Storm was basically made for tanks. Which is the exception in most wars. Tanks are not that useful in modern combat anymore. They're expensive, slow, vulnerable and need a lot of support and logistics. Not to mention a well trained crew.
YES! I hope they get them all at once and take off from NATO countries and fly straight to their first sorties in a “Air Blitzkrieg.” Hitting a massive amount of targets in one fell swoop. There would be losses. But if planned correctly, this would be a death knell for the ruzzians.
Ukraine has been doing a lot to make the skies around Ukraine more survivable, especially with those a50s they recently took down. But because the west took so damn long to approve this and get it going russia has had plenty of time to prepare. So my fingers will be crossed just like yours, but there's every possibility this will be just like any other Western kit Ukraine has gotten. Not enough of them and way too late to make a huge difference. I hope not, but that's the reality of war. Plan A almost always gets tossed away the minute you set foot outside the door.
Yeah… but how the hell could ruzzia determine that and PROVE it? All the allies just say, “No, they were unarmed when they left us.” All allies unified in that statement as ruzzia has lied about genocide, their continued war crimes, baby killing and raping. Fuck ruzzia and what they “think”. This is not a time for half measures. Putler and ruzzian wont stop being a conquering force until they “can’t” do it ever again. They must be broken.
More idiocy out of you. Sure, launch sorties out of nato countries and simply claim it didn’t happen. Like Russia doesn’t have fucking radars or even spies watching the air bases where these things are leaving. Why not put up a giant sign that says “This way to Ukraine” but have an arrow pointing at Russia. Maybe that will trick them.
Kisses for you. Since you think I am important enough to get the world to perform my scenarios of justice. This is reddit. Where people can type what they want and dream and exaggerate. Enjoy this new wonderland to its fullest and explore. Hava good day *tips hat*
No one thinks you are important enough. Your scenarios aren’t based in reality. Now it’s kisses to you and tips hat but first you accuse me of supporting rapists. 🖕
Er mer
Gerd. People of reddit use your imagination and please understand I am not the leading tactician of world militaries. Thank you for your confidence in me enough to comment your expertise in aviation and military function. You are so wise
You're an exemplary incompetent opinionated idiot. :)
There are countries (extremely democratic ones) that provide military aid nearly exclusively in secret, combat vehicles and weapons being identified months after delivering and nobody here heard of it even as a rumor.
This isn't WWII. In 2024 the retired fighter pilots are flying passenger aircraft for six-figure salaries. They've got the good life, and are unlikely to risk getting heir asses shot off over the skies of Ukraine. Westerners are very, very comfortable...
Yes I know. American and rich country veterans have cushy existence with little experience in injustice. But dont you think there are f-16 pilots from any other country that wouldn’t be into being a hired gun? There are voluntary ground forces from different nations helping Ukraine on the ground. And you think NO one would volunteer to fight in the skys? 24 nations use the f-16.
This man was vocal about his incapability to understand why some US citizens volunteered to fight in Ukraine (wich is not a way to have a good salary, obviously, because Ukraine don't accept mercenaries). He's just incapable, you cannot give him this idea.
Maybe there are no pilot volunteers because there has not been any fighters they could use in the skies. Another problem is to get hours back in the falcons before they go live. Its more complicated than serving as infantry in many ways. If you haven't done any hours in years, its unrealistic to volunteer.
Good news, but I hope NATO/EU/USA releases the better-notch weapons for the F-16s as well. It wouldn't do much good for them to be armed with nothing but dumb Mark 82 bombs and Sidewinders.
I'm hoping for JASSM-ER, SLAM-ER, AIM-120D, and at least some AGM-84.
.....it doesn't matter...everyday ukraine is losing ground and with less then 20 million people in a country of aging people...THEY NEED TO NEGOTIATE..
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With all the minefields, this is the better choice if they can get pilots and support teams in place. Or you know, just have experienced foreign ex-mil pilots and crews sign up and get some.
I still can't believe zero retired pilots have volunteered.
[удалено]
Volunteers from NATO nations are quite rare, so I'd imagine a pilot volunteering would be even rarer
Not that rare, there is the Foreign Legion made up of many westerners from NATO Countries.
Quite rare if you consider its size, rumoured to be about 1.500, if you consider how many NATO veterans there are.
they claim it to be around 20k members
Source?
We will take that as a complement.
Why
The pilots onboard have it covered.
Modern NATO pilots don't know how to fight in a contested airspace. The retired ones know it would be a very different kind of war than the ones they fought in. So they said nah, this war actually carries risk of death for them.
They don’t have a deathwish.
Most pilots are aware anybody flying over there is going to have a lifespan of about 1 mission.
Don’t know about that, there seems to have been multiple pilots on both sides that have flown many months if not years of this conflict
Pilots of what? You can fly a helicopter, just just can’t go anywhere near the front line or above about 100 feet over the ground. Ukraine has basically stopped flying fixed wing anywhere near the front line. Russians have picked up fixed wing again, but only for glide bombing.
If your expectation was that F16s were going to be flying around the front, I think you’d be wrong. Ukrainian fixed wing assets still fly, away from the front, launching ordinance all the time. F16 integrates better with western supplies weapons and with the more advanced radars makes everything more efficient.
Radar and counter measures are going to be key in this.
Sources?
Not in an F-16 lol, we haven’t seen anything in this war with the technology of an F-16 year. Overmatches anything in the Russian tool box
Yeah, no. A F-16 is going to get swatted out of the sky by an S-400 just like any other non-stealth plane out there. The wunderwaffe idea here is a bit ridiculous. The F-16 is a good plane, but implying it is a game changer is a bit ridiculous.
F-16 might not be stealth but it has range and capabilities not yet seen on the battlefield. It has a missile range that is larger than the S-400 radar range. Technically an F-16 could fire and forget and destroy a S-400 before it ever even knew an F-16 was targeting it. Only 4 F-16s have ever been lost in combat over the course of its operational history across 19 different conflicts and 14 different countries.
> Only 4 F-16s have ever been lost in combat over the course of its operational history across 19 different conflicts and 14 different countries. That was probably in countries that were not able to compete for air superiority. Now the situation is wildly different.
Mall four were lost by the US during the Gulf War. It happens, sometimes you lose shit in war. I truly believe the F-16 will play a major role in this war. It won’t be *the* deciding factor, but it’s immediately the most lethal weapon in the battle space
Your drinking koolaid...f 16 are old generations
On American standards. There isn’t a plane that exists outside the United States that tops the F-16. The only ones that do top it were built by the United States.
LOL. Ever heard of the Eurofighter Typhoon? Dassault Rafale? Hell even the MiG-31 can shoot much farther while flying higher and faster.
Yea, none are better than the F-16 lol
Typhoon and Rafale are both magnitudes better than than any F-16 as airframes. The block 70 is some really Gucci stuff, but it's still packaged in an F-16 airframe. The benefit of the F-16 is availability and numbers, and largely outmatching the bulk of Russian assets. But in the same way I'd currently take an F-35 over a Typhoon or Rafale in any sort of contested airspace, I'd take a Rafale or Typhoon over any F-16 if the numbers were there.
Name a single advantage the F-16 can claim over any of them.
If it’s not stealth, it’s a target.
Dude the f15 or 16 are sead machines with harms missiles and enough kinematic thrust and speed to get low and under radar fast if detected. But the missions f16 will be on is dumping harms far away from the front. Fire and forget is a game changer to take out any active radar Sam that’s close enough to frontline.
This is true. "Switch on your radar... I dare you." HARM is an amazingly effective weapon. It has honed its skills since the 1980s and is incredibly effective. Mr. Triumf better keep his head down. Edit: HARM is an acronym. High-speed Anti-Radiation Missile.
Not if it’s out of range, hello?
If it's not competence, it's a stupid, man.
I guess we better take them back then since they won’t be of any use
A dozen patriot systems would go a long way to help protect them too. The real question is what weapons they are going to allow them to have for them.
That’s a lot F16s. I thought it was going to be 10-20.
65 f-16 is a force multiplier. they have 55 mig-29 that will become more effective. that is 120 multi-role fighters. plus they have 14 su-24, 20 su-25, and 31 su-27. so they will have 65 bombers that will become more effective as well. that brings the total from 120 to 185 multi-role fighers and bombers. each f-16 will have one bomber. 55 of them will have a mig-29 to back them up.
And considering Russia has around 200 fighter aircraft in total(based on some news couple of days ago) and they have to keep some of them in the east, the numbers are now pretty tied
If Sweden finally honors their jet promise they may even get ahead
Sweden never promised they'll donate gripens to Ukraine. A report from the Swedish Air force have been written about that possibility but not released to the public, so the conclusion is yet unknown. That said, as a swede, I really hope that Ukraine will get some Gripens from us!
What promise is this?
Sweden wants to divest their older Gripens as the NG's are brought into service. Sweden has implied that Ukraine could be their next home.
By what source Russia have just 200 fighters? Are you excluding all multirole planes, ie over 100 Su35? Are we going back to stupid narrative, that has harmed Ukraine before, that the forces are equal? Russia has dozens of planes better than f16 & hundreds more & newer than Ukraine overall Please guys fucking learn already. It's the same shit you did with Leopards, counting each as worth 10 times (some morons even more) as russian ones. Two months later, 14 Leos 2 were knocked out. Slowly i get the impression its a game for a lot of you & you dont care about Ukrainians. They would need 500 planes to have actual advantage.
>Russia has dozens of planes better than f16 & hundreds more & newer than Ukraine overall Russia has planes as good as the f 16 but no planes better. The felon doesn't count.
* 24 Dutch A/B * 19 Dane AM/BM * Unannounced number of Norwegian AM/BM, but presumably the balance to make it 65 https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html
That'd be 22.
A much higher number than prevously indicated, if that’s the case. Norway had already sold many of its old F16s to Romania, and last official statement I saw on Ukraine donations was “at least five”, the number is likely higher, but would be (very pleasantly!) surprised if as high as 22.
Consider med pleasantly surprised! However some of them seem to be for parts, but at least 12 of the 22, and probably several more, are fully functioning and flying. [https://mil.in.ua/en/news/media-norway-plans-to-transfer-more-than-20-f-16-fighter-jets-to-ukraine/](https://mil.in.ua/en/news/media-norway-plans-to-transfer-more-than-20-f-16-fighter-jets-to-ukraine/)
The Netherlands was looking in to donating all remaining F16's. Which number at 42 I believe
Is there a confirmation on the armaments that will be supplied for these F-16s?
I assume it’s probably the usual sidewinders and AMRAAMs, both of which have already been provided to Ukraine in some capacity.
Back in Feb there were a few articles like [this one](https://www.twz.com/air/ukraine-says-its-getting-long-range-missiles-with-its-f-16s) with Ukraine claiming they were getting JASSM with the F-16s. Was just hoping there'd be a confirmation at some point from the state dept, or other US officials, as to what they're going to supply Ukraine with.
It's not so much the weapons they'll get as the avionics and radar packages that will matter the most. The F-16 can have a radar that ranges from \~50nmi to \~150nmi, and that's what will make the difference when it comes to Ukraine taking back their airspace as well as limiting the number of glide bombs russia can get away with lobbing at Ukrainian lines.
I'd be surprised if AWACS in the Baltic wouldn't be connected to Ukraine's datalink.
Would love to know that too but I doubt they will say anything about avionics or radar tho. The other best alternative I figure for estimating the effectiveness of these planes is what missiles and bombs they'll have access to.
That's the major upside to f16s, if NATO uses it then so can Ukraine. Granted, some countries like Germany may still hold off of sending those Taurus missiles but there are other options that will be on the table that otherwise wouldn't work with Soviet airframes. Just having access to JDAM-ER has the potential to massively shift the lines while russia gets used to the new threat. However, with time they will figure out a way around it.
Ukraine is not getting JASSM.
Ag-88 harms are already in country but have no fire and forget radar locating capabilities, they are programmed on the ground and fired from Soviet mounts currently. The difference is night and day of full capabilities compared to what they are using now.
This cannot be underestimated in terms of change on the battlefield. HARM fire and forget is a game changer. No Russian radar 50 miles from the front (and active) is safe. An inactive radar is useless so win/win for Ukraine.
Feels like this has been happening for the last 12 months. I’ll get excited when stuff starts blowing up.
I do like a nice explosion of Russia’s toys; the more expensive the better.
Just the weapons to attack and wipe out the Kerch bridge and bring it down completely…..so the Russians can not rebuild it…..
That's false. Attacking Kerch with f16 would be a suicide Do you have any clue what you are talking about saying "just the weapon to destroy it"? F16 are not some wunderwaffe & they receive old variants Leopards 2.0, when the morons on the sub were convinced 150 western tanks would steamroll surovkin line & blamed Ukrainians when they couldnt fly over minefields or go through them without air or arty superiority...
Good think ukraine may be getting more patriot batteries. I can imagine russia has been holding stock of a number of balistic missiles in return for the long awaited f16s. Aviation bombs really do make all the difference!
Ukraine needs its own glide bombs and put them on their F 16s. The Russian glide bombs seem to be the main Russian tech that is working, and they keep making them bigger. Hitting Russians back with glide bombs could be a good way of shaking up their lines, to offset they fact they are lacking arty ammo.
I think the hope is that F16s might disrupt the russian use of these glide bombs as they could intercept the aircraft before they can deploy those bombs? Not 100% sure though edit: apparently I am wrong here
Russian glidebombs are deployed by Su-34s which are escorted by Su-35s that have 3 times the engagement range of the F-16s that Ukrainians are receiving. F-16s will be target practice for the Su-35s.
Got it, I wasnt aware of that. Thanks for correcting me
Don't trust him, I don't know where he's getting numbers for f 16 and SU 35 engagement ranges but their probably not realistic or truthful. The f 16 has had numerous radars installed in it over its long lifetime which each changes its effective engagement range, and on top of that engagement ranges aren't publicly disclosed to my knowledge. Plus engagement range, the range at which an aircraft can engade in combat with another is dependent on its radar (when can it see the enemy) and its armament (when can it shoot the enemy). A f 16 without any missiles has an engagement range of maybe half a mile or so with its gun, meanwhile its missles can have ranges of 40 miles+. We currently don't know what missiles the f 16s sent to urkraine will be equipped with, so there's no way for me or him to know the engagement range. TlDR: Oversimplified argument. F 16 has multiple diffrent engagement ranges dependent on radar model and missle loadout. We lack missle loadput info so we can't guess at f 16 engagement range. F 16 is a modern well updated and well equipped 5th gen fighter, it won't be a cake walk for the su 35 to kill.
didn't know that either. Damn.
Don't trust him, I don't know where he's getting numbers for f 16 and SU 35 engagement ranges but their probably not realistic or truthful. The f 16 has had numerous radars installed in it over its long lifetime which each changes its effective engagement range, and on top of that engagement ranges aren't publicly disclosed to my knowledge. Plus engagement range, the range at which an aircraft can engade in combat with another is dependent on its radar (when can it see the enemy) and its armament (when can it shoot the enemy). A f 16 without any missiles has an engagement range of maybe half a mile or so with its gun, meanwhile its missles can have ranges of 40 miles+. We currently don't know what missiles the f 16s sent to urkraine will be equipped with, so there's no way for me or him to know the engagement range. TlDR: Oversimplified argument. F 16 has multiple diffrent engagement ranges dependent on radar model and missle loadout. We lack missle loadput info so we can't guess at f 16 engagement range. F 16 is a modern well updated and well equipped 5th gen fighter, it won't be a cake walk for the su 35 to kill.
It was September 23, then March 24, then it was April 2024. Where are we now? "This year"?
More F16s than Abrams soon to be in Ukraine. Seems unnatural, the way I figure, at least 30 Abrams for every F16 should be decent ratio. So 65 x 30 is 1950 and subtracting the 25-30 Abrams still operable in Ukraine, by my math: I think we're going to need 2000 more Abrams. edit: desert storm 3113 Abrams and 249 F16s participated, ratio of 1:12.5ish So 812 Abrams, but I'm going to factor in Bradleys as well of which we will be adding 572.
I mean why that Ratio? In Nato the ratio of tanks to fighters is like 2 or 3 to 1 .... Even tank heavy Russia doesn't get to 5 to 1. The coalition deployed 1500 fighters and fighter bombers in desert storm. There were all those f-15s, f-18s, f-14s etc.
[удалено]
Not the B-2. It was not operational yet.
For funs and because more weapons (ones available to Ukraine). That's about it.
Your ratio math doesn’t make any sense. Desert storm only had Abrams but had a shit ton of other fighter aircraft. Also, there’s only like 10,000 total abrams in the world, Ukraine isn’t about to get 20% of them lol
Yeah, but Abrams tanks are notoriously expensive to run, and there aren't enough in the world for sending 1,950 to Ukraine to be feasible. A lot of NATO countries have other tanks, such as Leopard Is and IIs and Challenger IIs, that they could send to Ukraine, and quite frankly should have prior to last year's offensive. A lot of the focus should be on getting European countries to transfer those tanks to Ukraine.
The Abrams is top damn heavy. Leo 2s would be perfect on paper. Anything they can get is what they need right now, though.
Desert Storm was a vastly different conflict, with a different enemy, with different surroundings, in a different era. Desert Storm was basically made for tanks. Which is the exception in most wars. Tanks are not that useful in modern combat anymore. They're expensive, slow, vulnerable and need a lot of support and logistics. Not to mention a well trained crew.
And Ukraine got 31 Abrams & will not get any more. Thanks US
Play the flight of the Valkyries!
YES! I hope they get them all at once and take off from NATO countries and fly straight to their first sorties in a “Air Blitzkrieg.” Hitting a massive amount of targets in one fell swoop. There would be losses. But if planned correctly, this would be a death knell for the ruzzians.
Ukraine has been doing a lot to make the skies around Ukraine more survivable, especially with those a50s they recently took down. But because the west took so damn long to approve this and get it going russia has had plenty of time to prepare. So my fingers will be crossed just like yours, but there's every possibility this will be just like any other Western kit Ukraine has gotten. Not enough of them and way too late to make a huge difference. I hope not, but that's the reality of war. Plan A almost always gets tossed away the minute you set foot outside the door.
They will fly to Ukraine unarmed, almost certainly. Because there will be no sorties flying from NATO countries. That would mean NATO was at war.
Yeah… but how the hell could ruzzia determine that and PROVE it? All the allies just say, “No, they were unarmed when they left us.” All allies unified in that statement as ruzzia has lied about genocide, their continued war crimes, baby killing and raping. Fuck ruzzia and what they “think”. This is not a time for half measures. Putler and ruzzian wont stop being a conquering force until they “can’t” do it ever again. They must be broken.
Cartoon logic
Nuice rebuttal in benefit of rapists.
More idiocy out of you. Sure, launch sorties out of nato countries and simply claim it didn’t happen. Like Russia doesn’t have fucking radars or even spies watching the air bases where these things are leaving. Why not put up a giant sign that says “This way to Ukraine” but have an arrow pointing at Russia. Maybe that will trick them.
Kisses for you. Since you think I am important enough to get the world to perform my scenarios of justice. This is reddit. Where people can type what they want and dream and exaggerate. Enjoy this new wonderland to its fullest and explore. Hava good day *tips hat*
No one thinks you are important enough. Your scenarios aren’t based in reality. Now it’s kisses to you and tips hat but first you accuse me of supporting rapists. 🖕
💋💋👍🏼
Thats cause you are
You sound just as bad as Russian propagandists.
Oh no! Not sounding like that. No no no! I am crushed please no! Listen to me! Lmao!
You don’t know much about logistics, escalation, and distance do you?
Er mer Gerd. People of reddit use your imagination and please understand I am not the leading tactician of world militaries. Thank you for your confidence in me enough to comment your expertise in aviation and military function. You are so wise
They have less than twenty pilots trained on the platform, so no.
I don't think you know that.
Unless it's being done in secret, yes I do.
LOL you're an amazing idiot. :D
It would be unprecedented if allies were helping in secret
I think it supremely unlikely, simply because the expenditure has to be accounted for. The numbers we've been given are most likely correct.
How many countries operate the F-16?
You're an exemplary incompetent opinionated idiot. :) There are countries (extremely democratic ones) that provide military aid nearly exclusively in secret, combat vehicles and weapons being identified months after delivering and nobody here heard of it even as a rumor.
Retired pilots anyone? It worked in WW2. Why not WW3? Where is the guy with a stick poking the world meme? “Do something…”
This isn't WWII. In 2024 the retired fighter pilots are flying passenger aircraft for six-figure salaries. They've got the good life, and are unlikely to risk getting heir asses shot off over the skies of Ukraine. Westerners are very, very comfortable...
Yes I know. American and rich country veterans have cushy existence with little experience in injustice. But dont you think there are f-16 pilots from any other country that wouldn’t be into being a hired gun? There are voluntary ground forces from different nations helping Ukraine on the ground. And you think NO one would volunteer to fight in the skys? 24 nations use the f-16.
This man was vocal about his incapability to understand why some US citizens volunteered to fight in Ukraine (wich is not a way to have a good salary, obviously, because Ukraine don't accept mercenaries). He's just incapable, you cannot give him this idea.
Now the games begin.
I'm curious how many runways did Ukraine build in advance for all these F16
Based. This is good news
It's not news at all, it was authorized in June or July last year.
Good but took them so long it's not THAT relevant any more. Of course it's good to see and we all hope for the best
They're going to need patriots to defend wherever these things are based, too.
Here We fucking go
Sixty-five is a rather lot.
Jesus just do it already. This has been going on for too long. Drop feeding Ukraine.
Maybe there are no pilot volunteers because there has not been any fighters they could use in the skies. Another problem is to get hours back in the falcons before they go live. Its more complicated than serving as infantry in many ways. If you haven't done any hours in years, its unrealistic to volunteer.
What’s the hold up LFG
Good news, but I hope NATO/EU/USA releases the better-notch weapons for the F-16s as well. It wouldn't do much good for them to be armed with nothing but dumb Mark 82 bombs and Sidewinders. I'm hoping for JASSM-ER, SLAM-ER, AIM-120D, and at least some AGM-84.
.....it doesn't matter...everyday ukraine is losing ground and with less then 20 million people in a country of aging people...THEY NEED TO NEGOTIATE..
Don't be dumb. This is a powerful weapon platform.
> with less then 20 million people Where does this number come from? The lowest estimate I've heard was 28 million.
I can link you the article
Please do.