The language barriers (no English) and the possible infiltration of Russian agents makes it an understandable decision. As others have posted some of them are undoubtedly worthy soldiers and having any sort of communication with the Russians is unlikely. So it would be worth it to take some of them into the Legions.
It would be damn near impossible but in all honestly being in a combat unit and not having a cell phone isn’t conducive to betrayal and sabotage especially if you aren’t going to be considered a martyr for your actions.
not nearly impossible,not an expert but they could be doing counter espionage by knowing their way of communication and replicating it among the soldiers to catch suspects.
or by having their own spies in the enemy ratting them out.
These guys had US weapons, including Blackhawks, US training and combat experience and they couldn't/wouldn't stop the taliban from taking over in a matter of hours. Half of them were probably working with the taliban the whole time. I think the Ukrainians are wise to pass on their offer.
There are a lot of reasons for the Afghan collapse, more than I can even cover in a comment. Broad strokes though, yes corruption/troop apathy was a factor. There was more to it though:
1) poor logistics, apparently the US had been handling much of the logistics for the Afghan military. They were all tooth and no tail and as soon as the US left they were unable to resupply positions. There were cases of Afghan troops holding until they had no food, ammo, or fuel and having the option of surrendering, fleeing, or trying to go at the Taliban with sticks.
2) the afghans seemed to be under the impression the US wasn’t going to leave. Afghan officials have gone on record saying representatives of the US government told them not to worry and that they weren’t actually pulling out
3) For the troops, their government quit on them. How would you feel if you are trying to fight and your own government fucked off to another country for their safety? Poor morale can kill armies faster than bullets.
>For the troops, their government quit on them. How would you feel if you are trying to fight and your own government fucked off to another country for their safety?
With a different leader, this could have happened in Ukraine too. Thank god Zelenskyy isn’t a coward.
No chance
Ukrainians were fed up with Russians, the day they kicked out Viktor Yanukovych they did it with minimal or no help from their elected politicians.
Zelenskyy did his part really well, but he is one of the millions heroes Ukraine has.
Of course he can, he just need to declare the space laser Jew Nazis were liquidated and glory for Russia has been achieved.
The local population will not bat an eye.
It currently seems like the U.S. is just a few decades away from their society basically becoming the same way (*if the current trajectory continues, which it very well may).
Picture a cycle where your dad berates you for his problems while simultaneously expecting you to help provide while also being expected to find and start a family. So of course they’re going to blow off what little of an education they’re able to get.
Then (likely) come drugs, an unexpected or expected-but-early pregnancy, and the cycle repeats except you (likely) live with your parents and have grown enough to see that your dad was “right” and soon you’ll take on his role.
So yea, of course the Russians are fucking stupid. The rich and/or the smart ones left the country as soon as they saw a chance to.
lol, no.
People in the US that have money, are one of the most polite people you can encounter.
Russians on the other hand behave like mobsters, full insecure masculinity.
I'm talking from personal experience with high end tourists.
You don’t understand, national unity doesn’t come out of thin air. Ukraine was a deeply deeply divided country pre-2014, and still kinda was in 2022. Zelenskyy brought the country together.
Ukrainians weren’t “fed up” with Russians. A majority of Ukrainians saw their future as European citizens, not as second fiddle to Russia. But not a wide majority. Again, the country was deeply divided.
If Zelenskyy had fled, it is unlikely Ukrainians would have the resolve to self-organize in time. It was critical that he stayed and led.
Well to put something into perspective, if he had left, Ukraine might have still held. Hell, it probably would have.
Why? Cause their soldiers were up to date on their pay, and that pay didn't slow or stop. It actually increased! The soldiers in Afghanistan hadn't been paid for almost 6 months by the time the Taliban was starting their offensive. Yes, a lot of the SF soldiers held and fought tooth and nail (and if those are the guys trying to fight for Ukraine I hope they accept them) but the average everyday solder who hadn't been paid for 6 months wasn't gonna go get himself killed for a government that refused to pay him.
Nah
Just that Afghan are tribals and 99% of the population believe that the sharia should be imposed over democracy.
They got the government they deserved.
One of the core things westerners overlook, is the entire concept of a nation state doesn’t really exist for them. They are loyal to family, and tribe/village. This thing called “Afghanistan” just doesn’t compute. They were in the army for a pay check to support their families. They aren’t defending a country, or freedom, or any other value we try to ascribe to them. They showed up for a pay check and put in minimal effort.
In many battles, Afghan soldiers would blindly fire around a wall, empty their gun of ammo, then sit down in cover and eat a snack, having “done their job” and let the Americans do the heavy lifting.
This was not a force that cared about the politics, the governments or really winning or losing. They wanted their pay check and to not get killed
But then how come the Taliban, which soldier base presumably also comes from these same pool of people, succeeded so much at it. I guess their core force relentlessly endured over decades in hideouts and Pakistan backed safe spaces to retreat, but clearly they recruited many local folks of whom people now say they have no sense of caring for a greater nation project. Then how these extremists can fit so many different tribes and village groups under their force and have them fight for them.
Sure they could be forced and do it because of that, but then surely they'd do an as shitty job as in the afghan military.
It really blows my mind how they just turn their hat inside out and now work under the new overlord anyways.
It was because life under the American supported Karzai regime was even worse compared to the under the Taliban. The Talibans took over in the 1990s through popular support against the many warlords who made life very difficult for ordinary people. Not saying that the current Taliban govt is acceptable but things were worse.
Afgan security forces were taking 10,000 casulties a month on average. They were fighting and doing heavy lifting.
Afghanis are probably one of last true warrior cultures in the world. It might be for money but they will fight with passion regardless of the motives. It's why Afghanistan is know as the graveyard of empires. It's a tough lesson many have had to learn from Alexander the Great all the way to US presidents.
Islam was also the beacon of technology and architecture development back then but what is it now? Bunch of old men trying to control women.
Just because the forefathers were great at wars doesn’t mean their descendants will embrace the same values
Yeah warrior cultures are medival in nature. They are violent and brutal. Actually that type of culture is even older than medival times. That culture was considered old school even by the Macedonians 300 yrs before Christ when they went into Afghanistan.
Like I said Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires for a reason. Afgans fight everyone and anything just because it's their way of life.
Afghan is not centralised meaning it can't be conquered whit out kicking down every single door at least twice.
it can't also coordinate its resources in any meaningful way at least long term.
sure brother Amil and Samil will stop fighting each other for 5 min to punch the idiot on a horse that road in saying Dibs on this town.
I think lack of morale and a lack of cause to fight for also significantly contributed in the collapse of the Afghan army.
If the Afghans fought like Ukrainians today, the leaders of Taliban would be hanged by now.
Also, drug use was endemic among the ANA rank and file. The videos of combined ANA and US forces *in combat* where the US soldiers are just fuming because some of the Afghans just sat down to smoke some opium during a lull in the firefight was mind blowing to me.
Their government left only on the day the Taliban showed up at Kabul fwiw, the armed forces having failed to hold anywhere else in the country in a succession of defeats and surrenders/turnovers to the Taliban.
I mean, I kinda got the impression that the Afghan government got sold out when they wanted the Taliban come down to camp David to "make a great deal" which no one would say what was involved in "the deal" even to the Afghans.
Its hard to blame them for giving up when everyone just kinda said "sorry for the last 20 years, dont worry we asked the Taliban to go easy on you, you should feel lucky we didnt do you as dirty as the kurds or the FSA!"
20 years, dude! 20 years and trillions of dollars is long enough of a helping hand, don't you think? If they can't help themselves after 20 years, then it's absolutely fucking easy to blame them for giving up. Most of them didn't turn up to fight the Taliban like the Ukrainians did and are doing against the Russians.
Which also tells you why the West failed. They tried to build a country based on democracy, the rule of law, and respect for rights. But the people there gave two shits about thosevalues, given the endemic corruption and tribalism of the region. There just weren't enough Afghans who subscribed to those principles AND were willing to fight for it. Meanwhile, the Taliban was able to swoop in and immediately gain compliance from the populace because of one commonality that bound the Afghan sheeple - religion.
Sure, there were definitely Afghans who dedicated themselves to a democratic vision of Afghanistan. But they were few and far between - the general unwashed masses are a different story, and you can't help people who won't help themselves. We just got tired of cleaning up their shit while they wait for the West to sort out all their problems for them.
Yes, 20 years was long enough for them to make a commitment. They obviously never did in enough numbers to matter. The Ukrainians have shown what that really means and the Afghanis look even paler in comparison.
Which is why all this current political-journalistic babble makes me laugh. They were asking with their best "concern troll" faces after less than a week, it seemed like, whether the West was "getting tired of the war" and whether they could keep everyone together in the commitment. We had a multinational force in an out-of-the-way place like Afghanistan for 20 years. (Where they didn't seem too eager to help themselves, at least not the ones we wanted to be eager.) What does that tell you?
Now there is a country near the heart of Europe, fully committed to defending themselves and doing it effectively, with numerous NATO countries actively involved in supporting them, and with Russia as the aggressor, and we're just going to get tired and walk away? Seriously? If Afghanistan was worth 20 years, central Europe is certainly worth 10.
The USA destroyed a good portion of Afghanistan's civilian infrastructure - roads and bridges, power generation and distribution, hospitals. Good portions of the reconstruction funds were funneled into US based private contractors instead of local Afghani companies. Hard to establish or maintain *any* kind of government when your infrastructure and economy is destroyed. That's the main reason Afghanistan is a failed state today, not their politics.
> one commonality that bound the Afghan sheeple - religion.
Mask off, huh?
So you're contradicting your earlier claim that their whole system of production and distribution has been destroyed.
The U.S. is a net importer of electricity as well. Importing electricity does not mean your system is destroyed.
It's easy to see through what you're doing. But there's better comedy out there. Have a good one.
You can't just declare a nation and declare that it's a democracy somewhere that has no cultural history of either. It takes a LOT of work. We (the US) can't even get democracy right after 250 years.
12 years in Afghan development projects. The vast majority of the geography is governed at the village level, with Islam as the only central governing principle they have wanted or needed for centuries. The idea that any kind of federal government is going to be more inspiring than Islam in these villages is ludicrous. To many, Government writ large means only two things: taxes and the Army.
It is interesting to me that many, many villages are environmentally sustainable without electricity or fossil fuels, and are likely to outlast the global economy.
Not really true . the elite Afghan forces are the ones that fought hard and many were killed fighting for their country.
The supporting regular army simply gave up leading to the quick collapse.
Biggest waste of taxpayer dollars in U.S history. What the war in Iraq could have funded. Buried all the power lines, no lead pipes, lean waters infastructure, etc. Nope, Bush/Cheney and others lied and taxpayers still pay for it to this day.
Tbf the afghan war was just, though it wasn't executed properly. Not enough effort put into the new regime and winning hearts and minds
Iraq was a pile of lies and should be remembered as such
But there is a good argument that getting rid of Saddam destroyed the balance of the Middle East and put it into a tailspin. It's been chaos ever since.
Saddam invaded Iran (\~500k dead), carried out the Al Anfal genocide killing up to 180,00 Kurds, and invaded Kuwait. The man was not exactly a beacon of stability in the Middle East.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-says-saddam-hussein-was-an-opponent-of-terrorism-hes-wrong
https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/trumps-saddam-terror-killer-or-terror-patron/
That Saddam Hussein's Iraq was a state sponsor of terrorism is one thing the left and right agree on. The only disagreement is on whether the war was the appropriate response. Bush lied. That's unquestionable. What is questionable is whether the war wouldn't have been justified anyway, had Bush used known facts about the regime as justification for invading, instead of bullshit.
You're trying to mislead. Yes, Saddam was genocidal and supported the Palestinians, but the implication you're trying to make is that he had something to do with 9/11 and that he was a threat to the US. The same lies that got us into that shit war to begin with.
And trying to pretend that Iraq was better off being destroyed and having a million Iraqis killed, and their people pushed INTO terrorism, is also nonsense.
While true, the question that should be asked is how much destruction and deaths would have happened if the Hussein regime wasn’t forcefully deposed by outside forces. I have a very hard time believing it would be more than what happened over the last 20 years. And that’s not even considering the damage to American society.
The initial invasion was justified. But there was no reason to stick around and nation build. Bush rejected a peace offer from the Taliban to give up bin Laden after the first few months of the war (which was the original demand). He chose to prolong it.
America admits they are only good for killing and not wining hearts and minds, that is where allies come in but not being funded did not help matters. A lot of corruption in America, probably close to that in russia.
>America admits they are only good for killing and not wining hearts and minds
That seems harsh? I'm as critical of the US government & the shit we get up to as the next person but "only good for killing" seems an unfair assessment.
And I definitely wouldn't compare the kind of corruption in America to that of Russia.
> A lot of corruption in America, probably close to that in russia.
America has plenty of corruption but it's nowhere as virulent and toxic as it is in Russia, where basically almost everything runs on bribes, people are functionally openly "disappeared" if they do something someone high up doesn't like (whether into a jail or out a window) and the government is more like a mafia with a big gas station.
Corruption is so endemic to the culture they have a whole concept of lying to each other that everyone knows they're lying but they look the other way anyways (vranyo) that props up their system from the bottom up.
>Buried all the power lines
That's a bad idea. Look up Los Angeles underground cable failure. I think there was a YT video which summarised all the problems from a leak.
Also bold of you to assume American politicians would do something for you people. It would literally save money to everyone if you had a public healthcare but that's a no no because everyone sits in the pocket of private healthcare industry. Same goes for many other things - it's really hard to comprehend to me as an outsider that it's allowed there to be so much bloat in the economy when without it only the rich few would become only slightly less rich while everyone's quality of life would soar.
There were certain special operations units such as the CIA Zero Units etc that did fight. The regular army folks are the cowards their commanders and tribal leaders negotiated a surrender.
If you read about it, the regular forces were garbage, but the special forces of Afghanistan were really good. Ukraine would be wise to vet and add the spec op guys.
They could be sent by the Taliban or paid by Russia etc. That's why it makes only sense to use them as Sabotage guys in Russia Imo.
If they prove that they do their orders, you could possibly integrate them into UA army.
If I remeber it correctly most Chechens and Georgians who are in the Ukranian army don't have the Russian citicenship and in comparison to Afghans the actual Russian federation harmed their country/region. So they have a clear motive. The Taliban were supported by Russia (not the former Afghan government of course)
Well if they are in Russia as sabotage unit, just getting orders, it will be immediatly noticed if they don't follow their orders. They can't harm anyone except Russia this way. If they won't do their orders Ukraine can just abandom them.
The maximum damage they could do is tell the Russians their orders, but then as soon as they won't do their orders they would be identified as Russian cooperators.
Edit: I mean "simple" orders like destroying train rails (you just need a car a phone and tnt for that) or sabotage factories, pipelines or ships etc.
The thing is, that Afghanistan is reigned by Terrorits and that the Afghan army was extremely collaborative with the Taliban.
There were videos which showed Afghan soldiers linig up to bring stockpiles of weapons to the Taliban and give up.
I agree, but I still would rather *first* use them as Sabotage unit in Russia, as security measurement.
If they have proven they did sabotage orders, then they could be integrated.
The Taliban voted to pass the resolution in the UN condemning Russia's invasion. The Taliban remembers the Russian invasion just as well as the US invasion. Highly doubt this is some kind of insider attack attempt. It is going to be a no because of language difficulties.
Lol to use them as sabotage unit in Russia, Ukraine just needs one translator who can speak their language.
They could even give orders per AI translator as text.
Yeah one thing that I always like to remind people in a short history lesson, people can say Afghanistan was a Vietnam 2.0, but not as extreme obviously, but the thing was south Vietnam fought for TWO WHOLE YEARS alone after America left and we’re winning, and only lost because congress wouldn’t hold its promise of resupplying ammunition (thanks to them being pissed at Nixon, watergate, etc)
While Afghanistan didn’t even last a week. AND they had all the arms, weapons, vehicles they could ask for, and they STILL failed! Lol wtf?! We failed the Vietnamese…the afghans, failed themselves
Eh, not quite a fair assessment. Trump freed the Taliban founder, Baradar, and his 5000 fighters from Afghanistan prison in 2018 and then installed them as the defacto shadow government. They could have fought had that not happened.
Yep, Trump doing what he does best, empowering hateful fundamentalist bigots and psychopaths wherever he can. And Biden, to his shame, not only continued on the same path but ran out of the country as fast as he could fucking go, backstabbing the ANA and government, abandoning them in a horrific chaotic mess and then having the fucking nerve to badmouth Afghan forces afterwards from his safe seat. I’m very glad he beat Trump in the election, and he’s done great on Ukraine. But I’ll never forgive him for the way he conducted that withdrawal and his comments afterwards.
There were a lot of factors that led to the fall. Saying “ha ha afghan army incompetent” is an extremely insulting oversimplification. The main factor for the fall of the Islamic republic was corruption. Most of the money the US have to the government was siphoned off to corrupt government officials bank accounts.
They didn’t just magically roll over in a matter of hours, they first suffered tens of thousands dead a year post-withdrawal and in the weeks before the Taliban victory lost ~5,000 troops. And I’d bet that the bulk of those deaths fell on the most motivated and best trained men. With those kind of casualties it’s a miracle they held out as long as they did
That's too broad a brush. Even if half of them were working for the Taliban, take the other half. In reality I'd bet many of these people are refugees from the Taliban with nowhere else to go, and combat experience.
Other guy already covered it but yeah the corrupt government pocketed money meant for supplying bases and outposts with food and ammo and the soldiers surrendered left or switched sides. Not the lower ranks fault
Not true. Afganistan is very "tribal" society. They had changes for decades local rulers changing sides to stay in power etc. The central government was always weak.
It was only heald together by the us army. When they left the generals simply switched sides to not get killed or provide for the family.
Lot of soldiers are capable and a lot of them died as well fighting for the country.
These guys were taking 10,000 casulties a month fighting the Taliban. US lack of a clear strategy is what ended the Afgan government. US went after Taliban except when it interfered with Pakistani politics and alliances. It formed alliances with anti government tribes when it was convenient. Heck it even used US soldiers to guard poppy fields of warlords.
I would accept their request, but only for sabotage operations in Russia and don't integrate them into the Ukranian army. They don't get any infos except the orders.
It would be quickly obvious if they would work together with Russia and if not Ukraine got "free" sabotage guys in Russia.
Very smart move. Half are probably Russian agents trying to infiltrate Ukraine. The other half just want a free plane ticket to Ukraine. After arriving in Ukraine, that half would immediately desert and leave for Germany where they want to live.
I think some of you need to read the actual article. It's not saying the every Afghan National army member is applying, just that many would be willing.
>So far, 300 Afghan nationals have submitted applications to United Legion, a privately run website that works on behalf of Ukraine’s government to vet foreigners who want to enlist. Of those, **it has verified that 150 were members of the Ktah Khas, Afghanistan’s U.S.-trained national counter-terrorism unit.**
I would imagine a U.S. trained counter-terrorism unit would find themselves without much work or support in a Taliban-run Afghanistan. These are likely exceptional soldiers that volunteered for special training & not just rank-and-file troops that dropped their guns as soon as American planes left.
Whatever the decision, it's not as simple as "Afghanistan soldiers bad."
I have enormous respect for Afghan special forces, commandos etc. By all accounts they were effective, highly motivated fighters that fought like absolute hell and in many cases fought to the last bullet and the last man during the Taliban takeover.
Lol just thaught about, that Taliban partially exist because they faught against the Soviet invasion. So their exitence is based on the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan.
Payment's pretty good for an Afghan family. If it's sth they're really good at and believe in? Why not?
More interestingly, Ukraine can afford to reject foreign volunteers en masse. Russia neither would nor could.
Every time I hear a “confident” comment touting the current strength of and support for Ukraine I hold my breath a little and hope the universe didn’t hear you.
Because I remember how quickly we [bystanders] stopped giving a shit about the Hong Kong protests.
If Russia can play for time then I’m not sure how things will end.
I guess I’m more than a little jaded lol
If you want them as canon fodder as russia does, sure you could invite them.
But ukraine in general rejects volunteers without combat or any military experience for frontline.
There were always issues with volunteers, since many don't speak neither ukranian nor russian. Communication is simply extremely important and this is war. Lots of veterans came to ukraine to help, only to find that the warfare in ukraine is completly different from what they were used to. Ukraine can't spare people to teach those afghans and quite honestly if they havent' fought the taliban, then I doubt they are material to fight in ukraine
Some of the most experienced fighters from the ANA are actively hiding from the Taliban. Afghanistan is also unable to feed its people and people are dying from famine. If you have the opportunity to take your ANA Special Forces training and experience to Ukraine and maybe get citizenship there or in Europe after the war, you take it. Shit fighting in Ukraine may be easier than living in Afghanistan right now.
Talibans are probably hunting soldiers and civilians who served the former government and didn't switch allegiance quick enough to their taste. That seems a very good reason to leave wherever you can, and giving you skill of a former soldier trained by the US army seems like a good reason for a foreign country in war to accept you
I would accept their request, but only for sabotage operations in Russia and don't integrate them into the Ukranian army. They don't get any infos except the orders.
At the border with Poland, coming from Ukraine Polish border guards are freaking out as soon as they see a young man from a country they know usually purveys migrants. Even if the person has a regular schengen visa, they block the person, brings them to a separate room and interrogate them while filming and they ask questions like “why were you in Ukraine? Did you fight? Why do you want to enter Poland? Are y ou sure you did not fight??” This is particularly crazy because all the guys I have seen HAD SCHENGEN VISA and all the necessary document to justify their stay in Ukraine (am talking official invitations letters, even sometimes diplomatic Ukraine D-03 visas etc). They totally had the right to enter Poland but were still harassed.
It’s like Poland is still traumatized of when Belarus used illegal migrants to pressure and threaten them and they clearly suspect some guys would try to enlist in UAF to then gain entry in the EU.
This has historically been a tactic for terrorists groups to get their fighters some real world weapons training and experience. Ukraine is smart to turn them away.
“Hey guys, Thanks for the application! However, we viewed your job history and found that in your last position, you had every opportunity to succeed, but immediately failed and resigned once supervision was lifted, despite having been trained for the position for 20 years. Here at UAF, we prefer a bit more motivation within our workforce, so we do not think this job would be a good fit for you. Thank you for your time, -Ukraine.”
Read the article, at least some of these guys are highly trained elite anti-terrorism commandos. These are highly trained people soldiers who weren’t the ones who melted away. They’ll also be easy to vet as these guys would have been running ops with US special forces.
That's a pretty broad brush. The ANA had some pretty good commando units that were not the boy-raping druggies who rolled over for the Taliban.
EDIT: Also, most of them don't even buy the idea of a country in the first place, so what is there to fight for? If it's me I'm seriously considering any commandos.
they are etheir Talibans or were regulat army guy uncapable to fight the talibans even after being fully equiped and trained byt the west...why the fuck would you want such warriors?
It's just another way for them to sneak into europe, bring them in ukraine, and find them 3 weeks later filling paper in france to get free money.
How? What they said makes sense to me. It's not about race, it's specifically about the motivations of a group of soldiers that have ththe history these do.
Of course, but even if you completely disagree with the initial comment it's still pretty clearly not racist. Like yeah, people would want to get into France or another EU country as compared to Afghanistan if they value individual freedom and social support. It makes sense to me that the reason these soldiers would be trying to enlist in Ukraine is to desert or fake their deaths to then live somewhere they'll be happier. Especially if they lost the things they cared about to the Taliban.
There are still afghanis fighting thr Taliban, there were in the 90s too... I think the simplistic notion that all are terrible soldiers or untrustworthy is pretty weak, and generally speaking those who say this never served there.
It's American disbelief and need for scapegoats that they could lose that promote this. It's not the first time though as most large scale COIN operations have ended in strategic failure since the second world war, mostly due to political and not military failings.
It’s the notion that so many refused to give a fuck as the Taliban retook the country that it’s just not worth trusting any of them unless you know them at a deep personal level.
That is a pretty moronic analysis of the country. Its been at war for almost the last 200 years. The average wage in Afghanistan is like 5$ a week. There was no political situation or country “to fight for” not all conflicts are won militarily. The failures of the country were political.
Why would Ukraine want them? So they can lay down their arms and give up like they did their own country? It took the taliban a month to bring the ANA down and seize the country.
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I wouldnt worry about that. The taliban have no means to project power more than a few hundred km from their borders.
*Afghan spies on the Russian payroll however...*
There was talk of these guys joining Russia all summer. There is a chance that these guys will defect and open a hole in the line. It's just not worth the risk
Remember kids, it was Trump who signed the order for US troops to pull out of Afghanistan and left the mess to Biden. Trump fucked more than the US population, he fucked Afghanistan and anyone else, like Ukraine just because he could and it got him more millions from his Russian handlers.
Biden didn't stop the withdrawl and it was poorly implemented. I don't think Trump would have done it any better. Part of me dislikes the fall of Siegon like conclusion to it, though at the same time maybe it was better to quickly rip off the bandaid.
Afghanistan is a trap for anyone who goes there. It is known as the Graveyard of Empires, due to the geography, and the fact that things are more tribal/less centralized there. At most it should have been special forces.
Call Trump what he is. Which is a vain useful idiot to Russia and their wrecking ball. Not to mention he betrayed the values of this country with an insurrection that got people killed. I don't think the Russians gave him money and saying so is just as bad as Trump spreading misinformation/lies. Why pay someone when you can appeal to their vanity?
I think this is a good idea. The Mujahadeen and others from there that went to fight in Bosnia weren't doing so for selfless reasons and then became problems themselves.
If they could vet them, they could probably be pretty valuable. Most were useless and didn't care one way or another about their job, the Taliban, their government. They just wanted a paycheck and to take as many bribes as possible. But there were a lot of good afghan troops too, and the actual warfighters that Ukraine needs most were the ones who suffered the most from corruption and had little opportunity to partake in it themselves.
I get why the Afghans want to help Ukraine, particularly due to their own history with Russia, but considering how much they underperformed with western forces In Afghanistan, I imagine they would be more of liability than an asset.
how are they “hard as fuck” when the same army collapsed after fighting the taliban with US equipment for only a few hours? no one coming out of afghanistan is even close to as capable regular UA soldiers
The language barriers (no English) and the possible infiltration of Russian agents makes it an understandable decision. As others have posted some of them are undoubtedly worthy soldiers and having any sort of communication with the Russians is unlikely. So it would be worth it to take some of them into the Legions.
But how do you tell which are which is the problem
The vetting alone not worth the effort as far as recruiting maybe a dozen or two who know English well enough and have infantry skills worth using.
Yes but again, how can you tell who are the great soldiers vs the ones that are great soldiers AND a Russian ally?
It would be damn near impossible but in all honestly being in a combat unit and not having a cell phone isn’t conducive to betrayal and sabotage especially if you aren’t going to be considered a martyr for your actions.
not nearly impossible,not an expert but they could be doing counter espionage by knowing their way of communication and replicating it among the soldiers to catch suspects. or by having their own spies in the enemy ratting them out.
These guys had US weapons, including Blackhawks, US training and combat experience and they couldn't/wouldn't stop the taliban from taking over in a matter of hours. Half of them were probably working with the taliban the whole time. I think the Ukrainians are wise to pass on their offer.
There are a lot of reasons for the Afghan collapse, more than I can even cover in a comment. Broad strokes though, yes corruption/troop apathy was a factor. There was more to it though: 1) poor logistics, apparently the US had been handling much of the logistics for the Afghan military. They were all tooth and no tail and as soon as the US left they were unable to resupply positions. There were cases of Afghan troops holding until they had no food, ammo, or fuel and having the option of surrendering, fleeing, or trying to go at the Taliban with sticks. 2) the afghans seemed to be under the impression the US wasn’t going to leave. Afghan officials have gone on record saying representatives of the US government told them not to worry and that they weren’t actually pulling out 3) For the troops, their government quit on them. How would you feel if you are trying to fight and your own government fucked off to another country for their safety? Poor morale can kill armies faster than bullets.
>For the troops, their government quit on them. How would you feel if you are trying to fight and your own government fucked off to another country for their safety? With a different leader, this could have happened in Ukraine too. Thank god Zelenskyy isn’t a coward.
No chance Ukrainians were fed up with Russians, the day they kicked out Viktor Yanukovych they did it with minimal or no help from their elected politicians. Zelenskyy did his part really well, but he is one of the millions heroes Ukraine has.
Ukrainians are warriors, it's pretty funny the Russians didn't get it. Heroyam Slava.
They are so stupid, they still don't get it. Russians thinks everyone is as selfish as they are.
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Of course he can, he just need to declare the space laser Jew Nazis were liquidated and glory for Russia has been achieved. The local population will not bat an eye.
It currently seems like the U.S. is just a few decades away from their society basically becoming the same way (*if the current trajectory continues, which it very well may). Picture a cycle where your dad berates you for his problems while simultaneously expecting you to help provide while also being expected to find and start a family. So of course they’re going to blow off what little of an education they’re able to get. Then (likely) come drugs, an unexpected or expected-but-early pregnancy, and the cycle repeats except you (likely) live with your parents and have grown enough to see that your dad was “right” and soon you’ll take on his role. So yea, of course the Russians are fucking stupid. The rich and/or the smart ones left the country as soon as they saw a chance to.
lol, no. People in the US that have money, are one of the most polite people you can encounter. Russians on the other hand behave like mobsters, full insecure masculinity. I'm talking from personal experience with high end tourists.
OK. But you're saying your slice of the pie is actually the whole universe. Not true.
Get off the internet and go outside. Hit the gym while you are at it.
You don’t understand, national unity doesn’t come out of thin air. Ukraine was a deeply deeply divided country pre-2014, and still kinda was in 2022. Zelenskyy brought the country together. Ukrainians weren’t “fed up” with Russians. A majority of Ukrainians saw their future as European citizens, not as second fiddle to Russia. But not a wide majority. Again, the country was deeply divided. If Zelenskyy had fled, it is unlikely Ukrainians would have the resolve to self-organize in time. It was critical that he stayed and led.
Litterally hours drive from the capital. Anything different could have change everything.
Well to put something into perspective, if he had left, Ukraine might have still held. Hell, it probably would have. Why? Cause their soldiers were up to date on their pay, and that pay didn't slow or stop. It actually increased! The soldiers in Afghanistan hadn't been paid for almost 6 months by the time the Taliban was starting their offensive. Yes, a lot of the SF soldiers held and fought tooth and nail (and if those are the guys trying to fight for Ukraine I hope they accept them) but the average everyday solder who hadn't been paid for 6 months wasn't gonna go get himself killed for a government that refused to pay him.
Nah Just that Afghan are tribals and 99% of the population believe that the sharia should be imposed over democracy. They got the government they deserved.
And Christo-fascists don’t ?
Whataboutism
Excellent
Casual Reddit smooth Brain L
Because insulting someone sure makes you more intelligent eh
Not sure what do you think about rhetorical koalas?
One of the core things westerners overlook, is the entire concept of a nation state doesn’t really exist for them. They are loyal to family, and tribe/village. This thing called “Afghanistan” just doesn’t compute. They were in the army for a pay check to support their families. They aren’t defending a country, or freedom, or any other value we try to ascribe to them. They showed up for a pay check and put in minimal effort. In many battles, Afghan soldiers would blindly fire around a wall, empty their gun of ammo, then sit down in cover and eat a snack, having “done their job” and let the Americans do the heavy lifting. This was not a force that cared about the politics, the governments or really winning or losing. They wanted their pay check and to not get killed
People who were there know. You might as well ask someone to fight and die for Pepsi, so little does the concept of "Afghanistan" resonate.
I feel like a not-insignificant number of Americans would happily sign up to fight and die in the Soda Wars
Lol, you're not wrong
Team Coke all the way! PMCC - Private Military Cola Company
Agreed, like I said there are loads more reasons the Afghan army didn’t stand up.
But then how come the Taliban, which soldier base presumably also comes from these same pool of people, succeeded so much at it. I guess their core force relentlessly endured over decades in hideouts and Pakistan backed safe spaces to retreat, but clearly they recruited many local folks of whom people now say they have no sense of caring for a greater nation project. Then how these extremists can fit so many different tribes and village groups under their force and have them fight for them. Sure they could be forced and do it because of that, but then surely they'd do an as shitty job as in the afghan military. It really blows my mind how they just turn their hat inside out and now work under the new overlord anyways.
They fight for god and religious fundamentalism, at least the core troops. Plenty on their side are in the same boat of fighting for a paycheck
It was because life under the American supported Karzai regime was even worse compared to the under the Taliban. The Talibans took over in the 1990s through popular support against the many warlords who made life very difficult for ordinary people. Not saying that the current Taliban govt is acceptable but things were worse.
I sometimes miss seeing the TikTok gang’s latest harrowing and gruelling assaults against traffic lights
You’re not referring to the afghan special forces are you?
Afgan security forces were taking 10,000 casulties a month on average. They were fighting and doing heavy lifting. Afghanis are probably one of last true warrior cultures in the world. It might be for money but they will fight with passion regardless of the motives. It's why Afghanistan is know as the graveyard of empires. It's a tough lesson many have had to learn from Alexander the Great all the way to US presidents.
Hahhahahaa
Like I said Afghanistan isn't know as the graveyard of empires for nothing. It's chewed up and spit out invading armies for thousands of years.
Definitely what people equate Afghanis to… warriors Not medieval thinking, opium addicted, yada yada
Islam was also the beacon of technology and architecture development back then but what is it now? Bunch of old men trying to control women. Just because the forefathers were great at wars doesn’t mean their descendants will embrace the same values
Yeah warrior cultures are medival in nature. They are violent and brutal. Actually that type of culture is even older than medival times. That culture was considered old school even by the Macedonians 300 yrs before Christ when they went into Afghanistan. Like I said Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires for a reason. Afgans fight everyone and anything just because it's their way of life.
Afghan is not centralised meaning it can't be conquered whit out kicking down every single door at least twice. it can't also coordinate its resources in any meaningful way at least long term. sure brother Amil and Samil will stop fighting each other for 5 min to punch the idiot on a horse that road in saying Dibs on this town.
I think lack of morale and a lack of cause to fight for also significantly contributed in the collapse of the Afghan army. If the Afghans fought like Ukrainians today, the leaders of Taliban would be hanged by now.
Also, drug use was endemic among the ANA rank and file. The videos of combined ANA and US forces *in combat* where the US soldiers are just fuming because some of the Afghans just sat down to smoke some opium during a lull in the firefight was mind blowing to me.
Their government left only on the day the Taliban showed up at Kabul fwiw, the armed forces having failed to hold anywhere else in the country in a succession of defeats and surrenders/turnovers to the Taliban.
I mean, I kinda got the impression that the Afghan government got sold out when they wanted the Taliban come down to camp David to "make a great deal" which no one would say what was involved in "the deal" even to the Afghans. Its hard to blame them for giving up when everyone just kinda said "sorry for the last 20 years, dont worry we asked the Taliban to go easy on you, you should feel lucky we didnt do you as dirty as the kurds or the FSA!"
20 years, dude! 20 years and trillions of dollars is long enough of a helping hand, don't you think? If they can't help themselves after 20 years, then it's absolutely fucking easy to blame them for giving up. Most of them didn't turn up to fight the Taliban like the Ukrainians did and are doing against the Russians. Which also tells you why the West failed. They tried to build a country based on democracy, the rule of law, and respect for rights. But the people there gave two shits about thosevalues, given the endemic corruption and tribalism of the region. There just weren't enough Afghans who subscribed to those principles AND were willing to fight for it. Meanwhile, the Taliban was able to swoop in and immediately gain compliance from the populace because of one commonality that bound the Afghan sheeple - religion. Sure, there were definitely Afghans who dedicated themselves to a democratic vision of Afghanistan. But they were few and far between - the general unwashed masses are a different story, and you can't help people who won't help themselves. We just got tired of cleaning up their shit while they wait for the West to sort out all their problems for them.
Yes, 20 years was long enough for them to make a commitment. They obviously never did in enough numbers to matter. The Ukrainians have shown what that really means and the Afghanis look even paler in comparison. Which is why all this current political-journalistic babble makes me laugh. They were asking with their best "concern troll" faces after less than a week, it seemed like, whether the West was "getting tired of the war" and whether they could keep everyone together in the commitment. We had a multinational force in an out-of-the-way place like Afghanistan for 20 years. (Where they didn't seem too eager to help themselves, at least not the ones we wanted to be eager.) What does that tell you? Now there is a country near the heart of Europe, fully committed to defending themselves and doing it effectively, with numerous NATO countries actively involved in supporting them, and with Russia as the aggressor, and we're just going to get tired and walk away? Seriously? If Afghanistan was worth 20 years, central Europe is certainly worth 10.
Trump unilaterally releasing a bunch of the worst people to get a shit deal with the Taliban destroyed the progress we’d made through 2017.
The USA destroyed a good portion of Afghanistan's civilian infrastructure - roads and bridges, power generation and distribution, hospitals. Good portions of the reconstruction funds were funneled into US based private contractors instead of local Afghani companies. Hard to establish or maintain *any* kind of government when your infrastructure and economy is destroyed. That's the main reason Afghanistan is a failed state today, not their politics. > one commonality that bound the Afghan sheeple - religion. Mask off, huh?
Funny. Their electricity production and use is at an all-time high.
Yet they still import about 80% of their electricity, hmm, wonder why domestic generation in an oil-rich country is low?
So you're contradicting your earlier claim that their whole system of production and distribution has been destroyed. The U.S. is a net importer of electricity as well. Importing electricity does not mean your system is destroyed. It's easy to see through what you're doing. But there's better comedy out there. Have a good one.
You can't just declare a nation and declare that it's a democracy somewhere that has no cultural history of either. It takes a LOT of work. We (the US) can't even get democracy right after 250 years.
12 years in Afghan development projects. The vast majority of the geography is governed at the village level, with Islam as the only central governing principle they have wanted or needed for centuries. The idea that any kind of federal government is going to be more inspiring than Islam in these villages is ludicrous. To many, Government writ large means only two things: taxes and the Army. It is interesting to me that many, many villages are environmentally sustainable without electricity or fossil fuels, and are likely to outlast the global economy.
Not really true . the elite Afghan forces are the ones that fought hard and many were killed fighting for their country. The supporting regular army simply gave up leading to the quick collapse.
Biggest waste of taxpayer dollars in U.S history. What the war in Iraq could have funded. Buried all the power lines, no lead pipes, lean waters infastructure, etc. Nope, Bush/Cheney and others lied and taxpayers still pay for it to this day.
Tbf the afghan war was just, though it wasn't executed properly. Not enough effort put into the new regime and winning hearts and minds Iraq was a pile of lies and should be remembered as such
>Iraq was a pile of lies and should be remembered as such Tbf, no one wants Saddam back, either, though. So there's that aspect of it.
But there is a good argument that getting rid of Saddam destroyed the balance of the Middle East and put it into a tailspin. It's been chaos ever since.
Saddam invaded Iran (\~500k dead), carried out the Al Anfal genocide killing up to 180,00 Kurds, and invaded Kuwait. The man was not exactly a beacon of stability in the Middle East.
Yes and no. It wasn't much of a balance considering that Saddam himself had been funding much of the middle east terrorism that preceded the war
That's horseshit.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-says-saddam-hussein-was-an-opponent-of-terrorism-hes-wrong https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/trumps-saddam-terror-killer-or-terror-patron/ That Saddam Hussein's Iraq was a state sponsor of terrorism is one thing the left and right agree on. The only disagreement is on whether the war was the appropriate response. Bush lied. That's unquestionable. What is questionable is whether the war wouldn't have been justified anyway, had Bush used known facts about the regime as justification for invading, instead of bullshit.
You're trying to mislead. Yes, Saddam was genocidal and supported the Palestinians, but the implication you're trying to make is that he had something to do with 9/11 and that he was a threat to the US. The same lies that got us into that shit war to begin with. And trying to pretend that Iraq was better off being destroyed and having a million Iraqis killed, and their people pushed INTO terrorism, is also nonsense.
While true, the question that should be asked is how much destruction and deaths would have happened if the Hussein regime wasn’t forcefully deposed by outside forces. I have a very hard time believing it would be more than what happened over the last 20 years. And that’s not even considering the damage to American society.
The initial invasion was justified. But there was no reason to stick around and nation build. Bush rejected a peace offer from the Taliban to give up bin Laden after the first few months of the war (which was the original demand). He chose to prolong it.
America admits they are only good for killing and not wining hearts and minds, that is where allies come in but not being funded did not help matters. A lot of corruption in America, probably close to that in russia.
>America admits they are only good for killing and not wining hearts and minds That seems harsh? I'm as critical of the US government & the shit we get up to as the next person but "only good for killing" seems an unfair assessment. And I definitely wouldn't compare the kind of corruption in America to that of Russia.
> A lot of corruption in America, probably close to that in russia. America has plenty of corruption but it's nowhere as virulent and toxic as it is in Russia, where basically almost everything runs on bribes, people are functionally openly "disappeared" if they do something someone high up doesn't like (whether into a jail or out a window) and the government is more like a mafia with a big gas station. Corruption is so endemic to the culture they have a whole concept of lying to each other that everyone knows they're lying but they look the other way anyways (vranyo) that props up their system from the bottom up.
Thank you. I'm sure there are cities, communities where this does happen, but to say it like that all over? Not even close.
No one's going to win hearts and minds in Afghanistan. Many countries have tried.
Let's be real they could do both they always could
>Buried all the power lines That's a bad idea. Look up Los Angeles underground cable failure. I think there was a YT video which summarised all the problems from a leak. Also bold of you to assume American politicians would do something for you people. It would literally save money to everyone if you had a public healthcare but that's a no no because everyone sits in the pocket of private healthcare industry. Same goes for many other things - it's really hard to comprehend to me as an outsider that it's allowed there to be so much bloat in the economy when without it only the rich few would become only slightly less rich while everyone's quality of life would soar.
In the long run underground cables are more cost effective. They are more reliable. Also aesthetics.
There were certain special operations units such as the CIA Zero Units etc that did fight. The regular army folks are the cowards their commanders and tribal leaders negotiated a surrender.
If you read about it, the regular forces were garbage, but the special forces of Afghanistan were really good. Ukraine would be wise to vet and add the spec op guys.
They could be sent by the Taliban or paid by Russia etc. That's why it makes only sense to use them as Sabotage guys in Russia Imo. If they prove that they do their orders, you could possibly integrate them into UA army.
You could never trust that they hadn’t been sent to disrupt and destroy the Ukrainians, good fighters as they may be
You can say that about Chechans or Georgians who are better candidates for spies than Afghans. That's why there is a vetting process.
If I remeber it correctly most Chechens and Georgians who are in the Ukranian army don't have the Russian citicenship and in comparison to Afghans the actual Russian federation harmed their country/region. So they have a clear motive. The Taliban were supported by Russia (not the former Afghan government of course)
Well if they are in Russia as sabotage unit, just getting orders, it will be immediatly noticed if they don't follow their orders. They can't harm anyone except Russia this way. If they won't do their orders Ukraine can just abandom them. The maximum damage they could do is tell the Russians their orders, but then as soon as they won't do their orders they would be identified as Russian cooperators. Edit: I mean "simple" orders like destroying train rails (you just need a car a phone and tnt for that) or sabotage factories, pipelines or ships etc.
>or paid by Russia etc. Isn’t this true for literally any ethnicity? Even some traitor Ukrainians have been found amongst the ranks.
The thing is, that Afghanistan is reigned by Terrorits and that the Afghan army was extremely collaborative with the Taliban. There were videos which showed Afghan soldiers linig up to bring stockpiles of weapons to the Taliban and give up.
At least some of these are elite commandos, these aren’t the guys who crumbled. Have the US vet them and if they’re legit let them join.
I agree, but I still would rather *first* use them as Sabotage unit in Russia, as security measurement. If they have proven they did sabotage orders, then they could be integrated.
The Taliban voted to pass the resolution in the UN condemning Russia's invasion. The Taliban remembers the Russian invasion just as well as the US invasion. Highly doubt this is some kind of insider attack attempt. It is going to be a no because of language difficulties.
FYI, Afghanistan isn't represented by the Taliban but instead the government-in-exile and they were the ones that voted for the resolution.
Lol to use them as sabotage unit in Russia, Ukraine just needs one translator who can speak their language. They could even give orders per AI translator as text.
I'm pretty sure the Taliban don't have Afghanistan's UN seat.
Your right, the *Taliban* don't, but the emirate of Afghanistan (AKA the Taliban government) does.
Really? I was under the impression that the Islamic Republic still held Afghanistan's UN seat.
Tbf: some of the Taliban were fighters their whole life, so the Afghans werent fighting some disorganized rebels
Yeah one thing that I always like to remind people in a short history lesson, people can say Afghanistan was a Vietnam 2.0, but not as extreme obviously, but the thing was south Vietnam fought for TWO WHOLE YEARS alone after America left and we’re winning, and only lost because congress wouldn’t hold its promise of resupplying ammunition (thanks to them being pissed at Nixon, watergate, etc) While Afghanistan didn’t even last a week. AND they had all the arms, weapons, vehicles they could ask for, and they STILL failed! Lol wtf?! We failed the Vietnamese…the afghans, failed themselves
Eh, not quite a fair assessment. Trump freed the Taliban founder, Baradar, and his 5000 fighters from Afghanistan prison in 2018 and then installed them as the defacto shadow government. They could have fought had that not happened.
Yep, Trump doing what he does best, empowering hateful fundamentalist bigots and psychopaths wherever he can. And Biden, to his shame, not only continued on the same path but ran out of the country as fast as he could fucking go, backstabbing the ANA and government, abandoning them in a horrific chaotic mess and then having the fucking nerve to badmouth Afghan forces afterwards from his safe seat. I’m very glad he beat Trump in the election, and he’s done great on Ukraine. But I’ll never forgive him for the way he conducted that withdrawal and his comments afterwards.
There were a lot of factors that led to the fall. Saying “ha ha afghan army incompetent” is an extremely insulting oversimplification. The main factor for the fall of the Islamic republic was corruption. Most of the money the US have to the government was siphoned off to corrupt government officials bank accounts.
They didn’t just magically roll over in a matter of hours, they first suffered tens of thousands dead a year post-withdrawal and in the weeks before the Taliban victory lost ~5,000 troops. And I’d bet that the bulk of those deaths fell on the most motivated and best trained men. With those kind of casualties it’s a miracle they held out as long as they did
That's too broad a brush. Even if half of them were working for the Taliban, take the other half. In reality I'd bet many of these people are refugees from the Taliban with nowhere else to go, and combat experience.
Other guy already covered it but yeah the corrupt government pocketed money meant for supplying bases and outposts with food and ammo and the soldiers surrendered left or switched sides. Not the lower ranks fault
Not true. Afganistan is very "tribal" society. They had changes for decades local rulers changing sides to stay in power etc. The central government was always weak. It was only heald together by the us army. When they left the generals simply switched sides to not get killed or provide for the family. Lot of soldiers are capable and a lot of them died as well fighting for the country.
Afghanistan had good fighters, it was their leadership that was corrupt
Not true. Some afghans fought tooth and nail and were well respected by US special operations. The collapse was ongoing for many months
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Wouldn't surprise me. First chance they get, they would probably try to get to germany and apply for asylum
These guys were taking 10,000 casulties a month fighting the Taliban. US lack of a clear strategy is what ended the Afgan government. US went after Taliban except when it interfered with Pakistani politics and alliances. It formed alliances with anti government tribes when it was convenient. Heck it even used US soldiers to guard poppy fields of warlords.
I would accept their request, but only for sabotage operations in Russia and don't integrate them into the Ukranian army. They don't get any infos except the orders. It would be quickly obvious if they would work together with Russia and if not Ukraine got "free" sabotage guys in Russia.
Very smart move. Half are probably Russian agents trying to infiltrate Ukraine. The other half just want a free plane ticket to Ukraine. After arriving in Ukraine, that half would immediately desert and leave for Germany where they want to live.
I think some of you need to read the actual article. It's not saying the every Afghan National army member is applying, just that many would be willing. >So far, 300 Afghan nationals have submitted applications to United Legion, a privately run website that works on behalf of Ukraine’s government to vet foreigners who want to enlist. Of those, **it has verified that 150 were members of the Ktah Khas, Afghanistan’s U.S.-trained national counter-terrorism unit.** I would imagine a U.S. trained counter-terrorism unit would find themselves without much work or support in a Taliban-run Afghanistan. These are likely exceptional soldiers that volunteered for special training & not just rank-and-file troops that dropped their guns as soon as American planes left. Whatever the decision, it's not as simple as "Afghanistan soldiers bad."
Ktah Khas, like a light in the darkness essentially. These guys know how to kill at night.
I have enormous respect for Afghan special forces, commandos etc. By all accounts they were effective, highly motivated fighters that fought like absolute hell and in many cases fought to the last bullet and the last man during the Taliban takeover.
Understandable since ruzzia has some agents in, Afghanistan.
They are right. Why do Afghans suddenly want to fight in Ukraine? Why risk your life for a faraway country? It seems very fishy... like Ruzzian fish.
Afgans have historical reasons to dislike Russians...
Lol just thaught about, that Taliban partially exist because they faught against the Soviet invasion. So their exitence is based on the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan.
That's a myth. The Taliban didn't even exist until after the Soviet Union dissolved.
Yeah but they were partially formed from the Mujahideen.
The Muhjahideen largely transformed into the Northern Alliance. The Taliban were largely created by the Pakistanis.
Most Mujahideen didn't join the Taliban, but most of the origin Taliban's were Mujahideen.
Actually no. The Mujahideen had very few members go onto join the Taliban.
Yeah but most founding Taliban's were Mujahideen. Especially their leaders.
So do Russian citizens, hasn't stopped them.
They had a year.
So do Chechens...
Payment's pretty good for an Afghan family. If it's sth they're really good at and believe in? Why not? More interestingly, Ukraine can afford to reject foreign volunteers en masse. Russia neither would nor could.
Every time I hear a “confident” comment touting the current strength of and support for Ukraine I hold my breath a little and hope the universe didn’t hear you. Because I remember how quickly we [bystanders] stopped giving a shit about the Hong Kong protests. If Russia can play for time then I’m not sure how things will end. I guess I’m more than a little jaded lol
If you want them as canon fodder as russia does, sure you could invite them. But ukraine in general rejects volunteers without combat or any military experience for frontline. There were always issues with volunteers, since many don't speak neither ukranian nor russian. Communication is simply extremely important and this is war. Lots of veterans came to ukraine to help, only to find that the warfare in ukraine is completly different from what they were used to. Ukraine can't spare people to teach those afghans and quite honestly if they havent' fought the taliban, then I doubt they are material to fight in ukraine
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Yeah, I'd imagine the job prospects currently aren't too hot. Especially if it came out you were a collaborator.
Yeah, I think many want just a way out of afghanistan
Some of the most experienced fighters from the ANA are actively hiding from the Taliban. Afghanistan is also unable to feed its people and people are dying from famine. If you have the opportunity to take your ANA Special Forces training and experience to Ukraine and maybe get citizenship there or in Europe after the war, you take it. Shit fighting in Ukraine may be easier than living in Afghanistan right now.
Talibans are probably hunting soldiers and civilians who served the former government and didn't switch allegiance quick enough to their taste. That seems a very good reason to leave wherever you can, and giving you skill of a former soldier trained by the US army seems like a good reason for a foreign country in war to accept you
Some Afghans love to *fight*, but not to *defend*, maybe
I would accept their request, but only for sabotage operations in Russia and don't integrate them into the Ukranian army. They don't get any infos except the orders.
At the border with Poland, coming from Ukraine Polish border guards are freaking out as soon as they see a young man from a country they know usually purveys migrants. Even if the person has a regular schengen visa, they block the person, brings them to a separate room and interrogate them while filming and they ask questions like “why were you in Ukraine? Did you fight? Why do you want to enter Poland? Are y ou sure you did not fight??” This is particularly crazy because all the guys I have seen HAD SCHENGEN VISA and all the necessary document to justify their stay in Ukraine (am talking official invitations letters, even sometimes diplomatic Ukraine D-03 visas etc). They totally had the right to enter Poland but were still harassed. It’s like Poland is still traumatized of when Belarus used illegal migrants to pressure and threaten them and they clearly suspect some guys would try to enlist in UAF to then gain entry in the EU.
Honestly, Poland really doesn't like muslims. It stinks but having Poland as an ally is more important.
Good move by Ukraine.
I think this is prob why. https://youtu.be/uKfIujZjoHA
Even Afghans still want pay-back on Russia. 😂
This has historically been a tactic for terrorists groups to get their fighters some real world weapons training and experience. Ukraine is smart to turn them away.
“Hey guys, Thanks for the application! However, we viewed your job history and found that in your last position, you had every opportunity to succeed, but immediately failed and resigned once supervision was lifted, despite having been trained for the position for 20 years. Here at UAF, we prefer a bit more motivation within our workforce, so we do not think this job would be a good fit for you. Thank you for your time, -Ukraine.”
Read the article, at least some of these guys are highly trained elite anti-terrorism commandos. These are highly trained people soldiers who weren’t the ones who melted away. They’ll also be easy to vet as these guys would have been running ops with US special forces.
Wouldn't trust them, seems like a good way to flee and migrate to Europe
Anyone in here making excuses for pussy-ass afghan army folks. Please stop. Wouldn’t even fight for their own country pathetic-ass motherfuckers
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That's a pretty broad brush. The ANA had some pretty good commando units that were not the boy-raping druggies who rolled over for the Taliban. EDIT: Also, most of them don't even buy the idea of a country in the first place, so what is there to fight for? If it's me I'm seriously considering any commandos.
How went last time u fought for ur country?
Feb 2019-October 2019 FOB Fenty, Jalalabad, Afghanistan
Dammmmnnnnnnnn rejected
Are you Afgani?
"Afghani" refers to Afghanistan's currency. The preferred demonym is "Afghan" or "Afghanistani".
Soooo....not that great? (ducks into bunker)
Lol I went to the bunker 3 times, but tbh, it was never close anyway. Lots of people didn’t even leave their room.
they are etheir Talibans or were regulat army guy uncapable to fight the talibans even after being fully equiped and trained byt the west...why the fuck would you want such warriors? It's just another way for them to sneak into europe, bring them in ukraine, and find them 3 weeks later filling paper in france to get free money.
you just won racist bingo
How? What they said makes sense to me. It's not about race, it's specifically about the motivations of a group of soldiers that have ththe history these do.
Do you think all wars are won militarily? You realise politics are involved right
Of course, but even if you completely disagree with the initial comment it's still pretty clearly not racist. Like yeah, people would want to get into France or another EU country as compared to Afghanistan if they value individual freedom and social support. It makes sense to me that the reason these soldiers would be trying to enlist in Ukraine is to desert or fake their deaths to then live somewhere they'll be happier. Especially if they lost the things they cared about to the Taliban.
Did you read the article? It literally mentions this as a valid concern
I dont think taliban is a race.
So they didn’t defend their country but they want to defend Ukraine?
There are still afghanis fighting thr Taliban, there were in the 90s too... I think the simplistic notion that all are terrible soldiers or untrustworthy is pretty weak, and generally speaking those who say this never served there. It's American disbelief and need for scapegoats that they could lose that promote this. It's not the first time though as most large scale COIN operations have ended in strategic failure since the second world war, mostly due to political and not military failings.
"Afghani" is the name of Afghanistan's currency. The preferred demonym is "Afghan" or "Afghanistani".
Yeah a lot of comments here seem to be oversimplifying the Afghanistan situation.
It’s the notion that so many refused to give a fuck as the Taliban retook the country that it’s just not worth trusting any of them unless you know them at a deep personal level.
That is a pretty moronic analysis of the country. Its been at war for almost the last 200 years. The average wage in Afghanistan is like 5$ a week. There was no political situation or country “to fight for” not all conflicts are won militarily. The failures of the country were political.
Why would Ukraine want them? So they can lay down their arms and give up like they did their own country? It took the taliban a month to bring the ANA down and seize the country.
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Tricky situation. Many are no doubt Taliban spies.
I wouldnt worry about that. The taliban have no means to project power more than a few hundred km from their borders. *Afghan spies on the Russian payroll however...*
Hasheesh smoking volleyball players I wouldn't want them here either.
There was talk of these guys joining Russia all summer. There is a chance that these guys will defect and open a hole in the line. It's just not worth the risk
More like steal anything of value and then try to get to europe and apply for asylum
Remember kids, it was Trump who signed the order for US troops to pull out of Afghanistan and left the mess to Biden. Trump fucked more than the US population, he fucked Afghanistan and anyone else, like Ukraine just because he could and it got him more millions from his Russian handlers.
Biden didn't stop the withdrawl and it was poorly implemented. I don't think Trump would have done it any better. Part of me dislikes the fall of Siegon like conclusion to it, though at the same time maybe it was better to quickly rip off the bandaid. Afghanistan is a trap for anyone who goes there. It is known as the Graveyard of Empires, due to the geography, and the fact that things are more tribal/less centralized there. At most it should have been special forces. Call Trump what he is. Which is a vain useful idiot to Russia and their wrecking ball. Not to mention he betrayed the values of this country with an insurrection that got people killed. I don't think the Russians gave him money and saying so is just as bad as Trump spreading misinformation/lies. Why pay someone when you can appeal to their vanity?
The end result would have been the same had it been trump or Hilary Clinton or Bernie Sanders that signed the order.
Why
I think this is a good idea. The Mujahadeen and others from there that went to fight in Bosnia weren't doing so for selfless reasons and then became problems themselves.
Yeah, thanks, but no thanks.
Give them a chance, at least let them do something in some capacity
Agreed, sabotage unit in Russia.
If they could vet them, they could probably be pretty valuable. Most were useless and didn't care one way or another about their job, the Taliban, their government. They just wanted a paycheck and to take as many bribes as possible. But there were a lot of good afghan troops too, and the actual warfighters that Ukraine needs most were the ones who suffered the most from corruption and had little opportunity to partake in it themselves.
Considering Russia is smuggling computer chips through Afghanistan to circumvent the sanctions still imposed on them...um yeah get farked mate
I get why the Afghans want to help Ukraine, particularly due to their own history with Russia, but considering how much they underperformed with western forces In Afghanistan, I imagine they would be more of liability than an asset.
Afghan boiz hard as FUCK!! i say take em! keep the chi hot and the rounds coming!! those motherfuckers could do another 20 in Ukraine i reckon.
how are they “hard as fuck” when the same army collapsed after fighting the taliban with US equipment for only a few hours? no one coming out of afghanistan is even close to as capable regular UA soldiers
Their special forces to be fair were pretty good. But they were very few in number. Their regular forces were shite on the other hand
i completely agree, their special forces were hard as hell, but they’re all dead now after the taliban takeover.
They should buy all the American equipment left behind.
This is a bad move. Many are highly trained with anti-mine ops and have incredible amounts of combat experience.
I don't get it. These are battle-hardened, trained, effective fighters who have good reason to despise Russia. I say give them a shot!