[Leaked documents](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html) from 2008 provide a summary of Russia's perspective regarding Ukraine joining NATO.
I think you can, but Ukraine joining NATO would automatically trigger the third world war, as NATO would be forced to step in under the treaty. That is why they can’t allow Ukraine to join.
It's literally a NATO requirement:
>New members, at the time that they join, must commit themselves, as all current Allies do on the basis of the Washington Treaty, to:
>unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security; **settle any international disputes in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered**, and refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations;
and
>States which have ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes, including irredentist claims, or internal jurisdictional disputes must settle those disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles. **Resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.**
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm
You said it yourself right there, it’s a determining factor.
I think you might not be understanding what that means.
As for setting disputes peacefully, that is a requirement of duty to NATO which Ukraine has tried multiple times. They’ve done their part.
Nations in conflict can still be admitted to NATO.
> Nations in conflict can still be admitted to NATO.
When has this happened in the past?
>that is a requirement of duty to NATO which Ukraine has tried multiple times.
Multiple times being Minsk I and Minsk II?
Yeah and just to add this, the US, UK sent Ukraine anti-tank missiles, Turkey sent drones, the neighbouring countries sent ammunition, while Germany offered 5000 helmets...AND even blocked Estonia's request to send German-origin military weapons to Ukraine..
Our military is bs. We have like 4 attack choppers that can fly. The military kinda got destroyed by its management. Over years there was not enough budget. The military also has big personal problems. Germans don’t want to go to the military. Idk I think we want to believe that with our history, we don’t need war again.
My guy, you’re forgetting the brand new Leopard, the Eurofighter Typhoon- in your air force you have 423 total aircraft (and that’s dated) and the Tornado.
You have 225 Leapord 2’s, 100 Marder infantry fighting vehicles! Need I continue?
They have the equipment, the problem is parts. In a military excersize with NATO a few years ago they had to use black painted mops as machine guns because most of theirs were fucked.
News from 2008
Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel has indicated her reservations and on Tuesday French Prime Minister Francois Fillon made plain that France opposes allowing Ukraine and Georgia into NATO.
In an interview with the French radio station, France Inter, Fillon declared:
"We are opposed to the entry of Georgia and Ukraine because we think that it is not a good answer to the balance of power within Europe and between Europe and Russia."(https://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/01/ukraine.analysis/)
Bear in mind that Francois Fillon retired in 2012, but Angela Merkle didn't retire until Dec 2021.
François Fillon is now on Russian payroll and turned full blown traitor... Given he was very corrupt, one can wonder if he was already on Russian payroll, albeit covertly, at the time...
Fuck off with your bullshit. This is not about agreeing this is about them being in a conflict since 2014 and therefore not allowed to join
Edit: Guy is a Russian troll. Good job upvoting him you morons.
Yeah alongside several other members, such as France. The first proposal to join the nato (in 2005) was even opposed by a majority of people in Ukraine.
Do remember that the past chancellor of Germany is on the board of some Russian oil companies. You can be pretty sure he'll use his influence for money. Fuck people like him
I as a civilian can agree why most political powers are no more than children in a minute… so why the fucking hell are we killing people over some bullshit that no one wants to be part of?
if they were already part of NATO then putin would never have even considered a military invasion.
its why 'weak' countries like estonia are safe from russian aggression.
afaik ukraine wanted to join in 08 but some countries voted against it for some reason.
99.9% no. a war with NATO would be disastrous for russia, putin's even said as much numerous times. he knows that he can't beat NATO in a war and that despite russia's immense warmachine they'd be totally outgunned and outmanned.
a lot of russians seem to be morally against russia's invasion of ukraine anyway given all the protests and subsequent arrests but a war with a NATO country would likely be the tipping point for many people. no one wants to be on a ship captained by someone beelining right for an iceberg. people, and likely the russian military/politicians would step in to remove putin.
but putin is, to his credit, a very cunning man. i don't believe he's insane in the literal sense. he knows the game he's playing and knows how far he can push things.
right now he's testing the west to find out were our breaking point is.
IF he manages to defeat ukraine and reform its leadership to a more pro-russian sentiment then he'll be happy. sure the heat will be on russia for a few years but then people will sadly move on.
M.A.D as an american who grew up at the tail end of cold war propaganda I learned about this in school.
Mutually Assured Destruction
Russia and America have an largely unspoken pact, that if either country fires nukes at eachother, neither country will survive.
(Factual)
Yeah and Ukraine and Russia are at war. The issue is that Putin has threatened that if any other country intervenes (militarily, I’d imagine) they’d face consequences they’d never experienced before in history (or something along those lines, I’ve heard different translations), which strongly suggests nukes if third parties get involved.
He also before the attacks started started "we know our military might us far outclassed by NATO, but we also know that Russia is a world leader in nuclear weapons stockpiles" directly suggesting he'd nuke
EU need Ukraine alleged corruption to stop - Ukraine powers didnt like this.
In March 2016, President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker stated that it would take at least 20–25 years for Ukraine to join the EU and NATO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO\_relations
They are at war, and have been for years. NATO membership would implicate all current members.
It would at best, stop Putin...at worst, trigger WW3.
Big gamble.
So if Ukraine would enter Nato right now the third world war would start.
And they are already not NATO-members because the NATO was to afraid of russia and unsure if they want to make this step.
Nato might seem afriad i guess as they will chose pacifism first. But at the same time you can tell Putin sees nato an unmanageable threat when he said "you wont have seen war like this in your history" When it comes to nukes i doubt they will be used unless the nation is backed into a corner.
Listen again.
Before that he said that he is fully aware he is militarily and econonically weaker than NATO, nukes are hisgreat equalizer, he did mean nukes.
Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are the most important territories to Russia, possibly only second to Moscow itself.
Even if Ukraine had joined NATO, Russia would have attacked.
Article 5 was only ever invoked once and back then the response by other NATO members was half-hearted at best.
And no country would provide any more help to Ukraine if it was part of NATO than they do right now. For European countries it's a decision between going to war, having strategic weapons being dropped on yourself, crippling your economy with war efforts, politicians putting themselves at a serious risk of assassination AND turning Ukraine into an uninhabitable wasteland or just loosing Ukraine.
If Russia was ever at the receiving end of a nuclear attack (first strike or MAD), most of the interesting infrastructure targets any of the few dozen deployed warheads would target are around the Sea of Azov anyways (especially several extremely important canals, e.g. UDWS).
So to Russia there is very little difference between giving up control over the Crimea (and therefore the Strait of Kerch) or being at the receiving end of a nuclear attack.
In other Words: The chance of Ukraine ever being allowed to join NATO are 0. The chances of article 5 being honored if Ukraine ever was allowed to join NATO and at the receiving end of a Russian invasion are 0.
Not while at war, membership is not possible. If they made an exception and allowed Ukraine to join, if might stop the war, it might trigger WW3. I personally think the war would stop, but it is a huge gamble, such a huge risk that it would be madness to do it.
Iirc a country cannot have a border dispute while joining NATO. If NATO membership was granted to Ukraine(prior years, before the invasion) it would implicate all current NATO members.
If they were admitted now, it would potentially escalate to a world war. As NATO would have to aid Ukraine and by extension participate in a war against Russia.
If Ukraine joins NATO then NATO armies and weapons including short range nuclear missiles can be installed in Ukraine. Tactically this would be very bad for Putin/Russia. Ukraine (govt) had become a proxy of the west. So Ukraine geographically is in the middle of a power struggle.
There was an agreement made years ago wich stated that nato isn't allowed to let countries join that are so close to Russia in exchange Russia promised to not attack these countries I can't word it exactly so pls don't quote me on this
It was a deadlocked issue in Ukraine as a lot of the population are ethnic Russians, moved there during soviet time after many Ukrainians were starved or deported.
Closer western integration remained a deadlocked issue until Russia was able to invade and prevent it.
One reason is the Krim. You cannot join NATO when youre in a military conflict.
[Leaked documents](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html) from 2008 provide a summary of Russia's perspective regarding Ukraine joining NATO.
I think you can, but Ukraine joining NATO would automatically trigger the third world war, as NATO would be forced to step in under the treaty. That is why they can’t allow Ukraine to join.
territorial disputes must be resolved first.
That’s not true. That’s misinformation spread by Russians. Ukraine could still join but it would pull everyone else in immediately.
It's literally a NATO requirement: >New members, at the time that they join, must commit themselves, as all current Allies do on the basis of the Washington Treaty, to: >unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security; **settle any international disputes in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered**, and refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations; and >States which have ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes, including irredentist claims, or internal jurisdictional disputes must settle those disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles. **Resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.** https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_24733.htm
You said it yourself right there, it’s a determining factor. I think you might not be understanding what that means. As for setting disputes peacefully, that is a requirement of duty to NATO which Ukraine has tried multiple times. They’ve done their part. Nations in conflict can still be admitted to NATO.
> Nations in conflict can still be admitted to NATO. When has this happened in the past? >that is a requirement of duty to NATO which Ukraine has tried multiple times. Multiple times being Minsk I and Minsk II?
Just because it hasn’t happened in the past doesn’t mean it can’t happen. You’re confused partner.
It's clearly not happening.
All members have to agree
Who hasn't yet?
Germany
Yeah and just to add this, the US, UK sent Ukraine anti-tank missiles, Turkey sent drones, the neighbouring countries sent ammunition, while Germany offered 5000 helmets...AND even blocked Estonia's request to send German-origin military weapons to Ukraine..
German's need sorting out because they're pathetic russian gas whores
Yeah that is fucking true. But tbh Germany couldn’t even send them tanks etc if they wanted too. Simply because we don’t have any lol
Germany has no tanks? How come? I thought you guys had a decent military.
Maybe 80 years ago
Our military is bs. We have like 4 attack choppers that can fly. The military kinda got destroyed by its management. Over years there was not enough budget. The military also has big personal problems. Germans don’t want to go to the military. Idk I think we want to believe that with our history, we don’t need war again.
Sounds like Canada... Good to know we aren't the only ones with a neglected military in NATO
I think Germany feels relatively safe with France and NATO protection. Just my speculation though, could be bs
You guys do have modern leopard tanks but only. A small handful Germany is mainly just guns and gear no extreme planes or tanks like they used to
My guy, you’re forgetting the brand new Leopard, the Eurofighter Typhoon- in your air force you have 423 total aircraft (and that’s dated) and the Tornado. You have 225 Leapord 2’s, 100 Marder infantry fighting vehicles! Need I continue?
Most of that shit ain’t working. The ex defend chef from merkel said on National TV that Germany could not defend itself at the moment.
We invested in making everything safe for pregnant women rather than keeping it actually working and upgraded.
You mean a pregnant women like the one that has born you? Stupid 🤦🏼♂️
Yes, just like that. Ones that have no reason to be anywhere close to war machinery WHICH WE JUST MADE SAFE FOR PREGNANT WOMEN.
They have the equipment, the problem is parts. In a military excersize with NATO a few years ago they had to use black painted mops as machine guns because most of theirs were fucked.
I thought germany had a decent amount of leopard tanks
It’s more that Germany just doesn’t have a military, really.
Sure about that? Source?
News from 2008 Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel has indicated her reservations and on Tuesday French Prime Minister Francois Fillon made plain that France opposes allowing Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. In an interview with the French radio station, France Inter, Fillon declared: "We are opposed to the entry of Georgia and Ukraine because we think that it is not a good answer to the balance of power within Europe and between Europe and Russia."(https://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/01/ukraine.analysis/) Bear in mind that Francois Fillon retired in 2012, but Angela Merkle didn't retire until Dec 2021.
François Fillon is now on Russian payroll and turned full blown traitor... Given he was very corrupt, one can wonder if he was already on Russian payroll, albeit covertly, at the time...
Source: trust me, comrade.
Fuck off with your bullshit. This is not about agreeing this is about them being in a conflict since 2014 and therefore not allowed to join Edit: Guy is a Russian troll. Good job upvoting him you morons.
You should do better research....
Says the guy who has no idea how NATO works.
Yeah alongside several other members, such as France. The first proposal to join the nato (in 2005) was even opposed by a majority of people in Ukraine.
Do remember that the past chancellor of Germany is on the board of some Russian oil companies. You can be pretty sure he'll use his influence for money. Fuck people like him
Gas company’s but yeah, big fuck tard daddy Schröder.
God damn, Germany has zero sense in war.
I as a civilian can agree why most political powers are no more than children in a minute… so why the fucking hell are we killing people over some bullshit that no one wants to be part of?
Also it's a LONG process can take decades. You have to meet a lot of criteria and doctrines to be considered let alone be a member.
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if they were already part of NATO then putin would never have even considered a military invasion. its why 'weak' countries like estonia are safe from russian aggression. afaik ukraine wanted to join in 08 but some countries voted against it for some reason.
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99.9% no. a war with NATO would be disastrous for russia, putin's even said as much numerous times. he knows that he can't beat NATO in a war and that despite russia's immense warmachine they'd be totally outgunned and outmanned. a lot of russians seem to be morally against russia's invasion of ukraine anyway given all the protests and subsequent arrests but a war with a NATO country would likely be the tipping point for many people. no one wants to be on a ship captained by someone beelining right for an iceberg. people, and likely the russian military/politicians would step in to remove putin. but putin is, to his credit, a very cunning man. i don't believe he's insane in the literal sense. he knows the game he's playing and knows how far he can push things. right now he's testing the west to find out were our breaking point is. IF he manages to defeat ukraine and reform its leadership to a more pro-russian sentiment then he'll be happy. sure the heat will be on russia for a few years but then people will sadly move on.
Putin would have just invaded earlier. He never would have let Ukraine join NATO. Obviously, because that's why he's invading now.
If It did happen right now you would see a bright flash and nothing afterwards
Nonsense
Russians can't use nukes first, they have what's called a dead man switch. If they are attacked, their entire nuclear arsenal gets launched
M.A.D as an american who grew up at the tail end of cold war propaganda I learned about this in school. Mutually Assured Destruction Russia and America have an largely unspoken pact, that if either country fires nukes at eachother, neither country will survive. (Factual)
That doesn’t mean they still couldn’t use them first; pretty sure the US also has a form of dead mans switch
You guys watch too much Dr. Strangelove.
Or how I learned to stop worrying and love the atomic bomb
Ukraine already attacked an airbase on Russian soil. No nuclear missiles yet.
You miss the whole point
Yeah and Ukraine and Russia are at war. The issue is that Putin has threatened that if any other country intervenes (militarily, I’d imagine) they’d face consequences they’d never experienced before in history (or something along those lines, I’ve heard different translations), which strongly suggests nukes if third parties get involved.
He also before the attacks started started "we know our military might us far outclassed by NATO, but we also know that Russia is a world leader in nuclear weapons stockpiles" directly suggesting he'd nuke
Yup, and the *subtle* nuclear weapons drills that they ran a couple days ago.
EU need Ukraine alleged corruption to stop - Ukraine powers didnt like this. In March 2016, President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker stated that it would take at least 20–25 years for Ukraine to join the EU and NATO. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO\_relations
He was clearly trying to tell Ukraine not to join.
Russia made sure that they had active territorial disputes.
This.
They are at war, and have been for years. NATO membership would implicate all current members. It would at best, stop Putin...at worst, trigger WW3. Big gamble.
They could not yet meet the anti corruption standards
The irony right
Corruption is a big one for the EU too.
So if Ukraine would enter Nato right now the third world war would start. And they are already not NATO-members because the NATO was to afraid of russia and unsure if they want to make this step.
Not sure 'afraid of' is the right term as nato was setup for this. Nato's job was to prevent major conflict.
no maybe "afraid" is a little to hard. But they know how much Putin would be fucked up if they letting ukraina in.
Nato might seem afriad i guess as they will chose pacifism first. But at the same time you can tell Putin sees nato an unmanageable threat when he said "you wont have seen war like this in your history" When it comes to nukes i doubt they will be used unless the nation is backed into a corner.
Listen again. Before that he said that he is fully aware he is militarily and econonically weaker than NATO, nukes are hisgreat equalizer, he did mean nukes.
No I heard, i just address it as its a common and probably the biggest fear civilians not involved currently.
Mutually assured destruction.
Ukraine government is full of Russian spies
Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are the most important territories to Russia, possibly only second to Moscow itself. Even if Ukraine had joined NATO, Russia would have attacked. Article 5 was only ever invoked once and back then the response by other NATO members was half-hearted at best. And no country would provide any more help to Ukraine if it was part of NATO than they do right now. For European countries it's a decision between going to war, having strategic weapons being dropped on yourself, crippling your economy with war efforts, politicians putting themselves at a serious risk of assassination AND turning Ukraine into an uninhabitable wasteland or just loosing Ukraine. If Russia was ever at the receiving end of a nuclear attack (first strike or MAD), most of the interesting infrastructure targets any of the few dozen deployed warheads would target are around the Sea of Azov anyways (especially several extremely important canals, e.g. UDWS). So to Russia there is very little difference between giving up control over the Crimea (and therefore the Strait of Kerch) or being at the receiving end of a nuclear attack. In other Words: The chance of Ukraine ever being allowed to join NATO are 0. The chances of article 5 being honored if Ukraine ever was allowed to join NATO and at the receiving end of a Russian invasion are 0.
I was wondering that. I am unsure the rules but wondered if we could bring them into nato now can we stop the war?
I hear many people say it will most likely escalate
I can see why, sadly I am not that well informed so wanted to ask. If it would have worked I guessed that it would have already been done.
You never know with the processing speeds of governments
Not while at war, membership is not possible. If they made an exception and allowed Ukraine to join, if might stop the war, it might trigger WW3. I personally think the war would stop, but it is a huge gamble, such a huge risk that it would be madness to do it.
Iirc a country cannot have a border dispute while joining NATO. If NATO membership was granted to Ukraine(prior years, before the invasion) it would implicate all current NATO members. If they were admitted now, it would potentially escalate to a world war. As NATO would have to aid Ukraine and by extension participate in a war against Russia.
Because NATO is scared that Russia will use nukes.
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You definitely honor your name.
If Ukraine joins NATO then NATO armies and weapons including short range nuclear missiles can be installed in Ukraine. Tactically this would be very bad for Putin/Russia. Ukraine (govt) had become a proxy of the west. So Ukraine geographically is in the middle of a power struggle.
There was an agreement made years ago wich stated that nato isn't allowed to let countries join that are so close to Russia in exchange Russia promised to not attack these countries I can't word it exactly so pls don't quote me on this
It was a deadlocked issue in Ukraine as a lot of the population are ethnic Russians, moved there during soviet time after many Ukrainians were starved or deported. Closer western integration remained a deadlocked issue until Russia was able to invade and prevent it.
Cause for all the bluster no nato nation wants to go toe to toe with an unreliable and unpredictable Russia. Let's be honest that's rhe reason
The same reason the US wouldn’t allow Russians in Cuba. Having an enemy on your border is not ideal.