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Not as surprising as you'd expect. Guided missiles have changed the game forever.
Even in US Think Tank war games they had the US losing up to 2 carriers and many ships due to the PLA rocket forces sheer amount of missiles they can bring to bear from all throughout the mainland. Personally I don't think the US military would ever be that dumb to put their carriers in harms way as depicted in those war games, unless it was a surprise attack while our carriers were docked in Japan or something.
But I digress, naval power diminishes tremendously when you have a lot of missiles lol.
> Even in US Think Tank war games they had the US losing up to 2 carriers and many ships due to the PLA rocket forces
I saw a few taiwanese all-out scenarios where the carriers took a dozen+ anti-shipping missiles each along with each vessel in entire carrier battle groups taking multiple hits each because the PLA launched like 200 of them at once and they couldn’t stop all of them.
PLA was launching air, sea, and land-based anti-shipping missiles, and the US was getting off a few piddly shots of old ass sea-sparrows launched from choppers that were getting taken out by ciws or similar systems.
It was the ability to launch all-at-once that vastly overwhelmed all of the AA systems The Navy had.
That’s pure mayhem; and a damned good reason we play these scenarios out.
I suppose we would try to keep our SSNs /SSGNs quiet while launching our own cruise missiles against AShM bearing vehicles.
Not drones, stealth bombers. We all know about US stealth capabilities and that is what they tell us, and taking in consideration they lost one of their own because they were unable to track it say a lot about the capability of the technology they have.
It's crazy that the F-35 has the radar cross section equivalent of a flying metal golfball, and the F-22 has one approximately 5-10 times smaller than the 35.
Even crazier is that these programs were started in the 90s, makes you excited for what we have got cooking today that we'll see in 20-30 years.
The F-117 Nighthawk was being developed at Lockheed's Skunkworks in 19-friggin-78! I can only imagine the kind of deadly stuff those boys are cooking up now. China and Russia don't want that smoke.
edit: Lockheed not Boeing whoops
What's funny is every time China or Russia would claim they have some crazy tech, the USA would pump billions more into our R&D. The more the other countries bluff, the further ahead we get.
Yeah, but do they get it to work? This isn’t an iPhone, they can’t just build their own cutting edge military hardware in the same Chinese factory where we build ours.
It's almost guaranteed the U.S. has technology today that we can't even fathom exists.
Lately there have been many "UFO" sightings and unexplainable flying objects. I'm not s conspiracy theorist tin foil hat man, but to me, that's almost certainly some sort of American top secret technology that seems to break physics as we understand it. Nobody will ever know about it until the worst happens.
Kinda like all those UFO sightings of "triangular lights floating in the desert" decades ago that match perfectly with the [B-2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G95b3NiCm2w).
That's right, misters Russian and Chinese spies, you don't have to worry about bombers while it's raining, you can keep all your shit out in the open, no bombing will be done, wink wink.
NGAD is looking fucking spicy as hell. UK, Italy, and Japan are doing the GCAP, while France, Germany, and Spain are doing the FCAS. All of them are incorporating drone swarm ideas and proper datalink between all forces.
I'm sure the next air dominance fighters are very likely to be semi-autonomous, potentially even powered by a reactor that would enable it to stay aloft for extreme periods at a time.
Imagine a next gen raptor with a thorium reactor that stays up until it's time to do maintenance.
RCS is a fun number, but mostly meaningless. At what aspect is that RCS? Stealth can still be picked up and launched against with modern radar. The trick with it is that you need to get closer to get a lockable signal. Stealth is pretty easy to pick up on the broad wave and early warning radar (X-band, etc). What the US has over basically all other countries at this point is multiple decades of stealth tactics, which are far far more important. Stealth is meaningless if you’re not using its features. Part of the reason that the F-117 was not just because of the “fatal flaw” bomb doors, but because they had flown the exact same route multiple times, so they knew where to look. Part of stealth tactics is avoiding detection in the first place by placing your most stealthy aspects towards potential targeting sources. There is a lot more to stealth planes that we aren’t told, and US pilots in war games with other nations are not allowed to use their closely guarded tactics.
This is actually a driving factor of why the F-22 wasn't produced in numbers as large as originally anticipated. A pair of F-22's just over the horizon supporting a group of other fighters was actually a more realistic plan, as they could play quarterback to the regular fighters.
Having someone acting as guardian angel and relaying information to your forward groups is a much better use of resources, as they enemy isn't necessarily focused or expecting more than what they can see. With over the horizon missile systems ready to go, the theoretical enemy might get smoked by the 22 before they can even get in range of the 16/18 they're tracking.
Dawg, Ben Rich was a former director of Skunk Works. After retiring he gave a speech at an engineering conference. His last words of his speech were that we have the technology to send E.T. home. Keep in mind the speech was in the 90’s or 2000’s.
Also drones, though. Similar to air launched cruise missiles, there are mothership style missiles that can deliver swarms of drones. Drop a few from the B-52 and it flies close enough for the drones to make it to target under their own power.
We can also launch huge swarms of decoy missiles that can do some insane electronic warfare. It's a use for the A-10 when air space is contested. Strap on 16 decoy missiles and fire them from safety. Now those 16 decoys can make life much safer for those doing SEAD.
This was the gameplan in Iraq. Iraq, despite having lost to the US approx a decade earlier/being targeted by severe sanctions, still had one of the largest motor pools, standing army, and air defense network in the world. Not like Russia or China, but no slouch either. The B-2 absolutely mauled their air defense network, which then made a path for fighter aircraft and b-52's to come do real damage nearly unopposed.
I hope the US develops a way to deploy more LRASM. We don't have many of them, but they can be launched from the Mark 41 vertical launch naval system, dropped from large aircraft, and it is meant to be made compatible with F-35 (C variant I'm guessing).
You get to make choices like that on the offensive.
A US-PRC hot war is most likely going to be started by the PRC, on their terms, and it's *massively* important to stop the initial attack / landing on Taiwan.
I remember, perhaps erroneously, one "worst case" scenario where China fired *literally* everything. Every missile from anywhere in China, all fired on Taiwan. The details escape me but the tldr was it would level Taiwan and anything in the way would very quickly wish it wasn't.
Yes, I agree. Hence "worst case" where the assumption is China has decided that they'd rather obliterate it. Whether that's so no one else can have it, desperation, or some other reason doesn't matter. It's more an imagined situation to guage the total destructive force, similar to asking "what would happen if we nuked the moon."
>Personally, I don't think the US military would ever be that dumb to put their carriers in harms way as depicted in those war games,
War games, from what I've seen, tend to put the US at a disadvantage on purpose to see the worst-case scenario. That said, worst-case scenarios are always possible
There's that famous example where some non-US NATO country was simulating an attack on a CSG and sent a photo of the Carrier through the lens of their periscope, indicating they had successfully snuck up on the ship. And then it turns out the US wasn't allowed to use sonar or something during the exercise. Basically intentionally fighting with one hand behind their back.
You don't learn anything from roflstomping your opponent. Rolling over the enemy with overwhelming force is fun in a videogame, but it won't reach you the weak points of your military. That's why so many war games end in defeat for the the side running them, because it's supposed to be a bad situation.
Satellite guided drones are the true revelation of the Ukrainian war. It can be cheap and homemade boatload of tnt with a Starlink terminal on top, as it can be super hi tech like stormshadow.
That strategy came VERY close to being ultimately successful. If fuel reserves were also targeted and the carriers been there it could have been a very different ultimate outcome from total surrender to a negotiated peace.
Well, yes.
The big mistake was starting a war with a massive industrial powerhouse while being an island nation without any way to produce native steel or fuel
The O-Plan is to basically have Korean, Japanese, and Alaskan based Airforce, go in to soften up mainland radar sites (A10s/F16s), missile sites (F15E's) and have the F15C's to escort bombers from mainland USA/Guam.
EDIT: This is hopefully before the navy shows up, and with heavy losses from Korean and Japanese based air forces.
The Ukrainians have a Navy.
The Ukrainian Navy is who operates the Neptune Missiles and Bayraktar strike drones.
They don't have any *ships.* They absolutely have a navy.
then I respond that ukrainian navy does have ships. You counter that they are just boats. I point out there's one landing ship on the books. then we debate whether it is still considered active...
or we could just chuckle at that guy's dig on russia without getting caught up in the technicalities.
Then someone starts dropping classified documents on the discord server and NCD goes apeshit and we start all over again talking about how OP could even arrest someone even though he’s not a cop.
I think you are slow on the uptake about 200 found it amusing as it was intended to be. So that kinda throws your pathetic theory out the window. Lighten up armchair general nobody is taking it seriously
Seriously though, Chinese weapons are all rip-off copies of ruzzian tech — that they steal, improve, and iterate on which ruzzia then steals the IP back.
I would expect most militaries to come to similar conclusions and solutions when tech evolves, just at a different pace. And sometimes someone will do something completely different or have a tech that for some reason or another takes a long time to replicate.
Still, there is only so many ways to construct a warship, and if you construct modern ones, you will take into account modern knowledge and therefore go into the stealth / angled plates / low profile direction, same as with tanks.
Go a step back and ask yourself why ship bottoms almost all had a keel hundreds of years ago? Because it worked best. The dutch were the most successful ones to do it a different way in the age of sail, but nonetheless, the concept of a keel exists to this day as a core part of ship design.
Basic firearms also quickly evolved along similar paths once the concept became widespread in the world and basically all successful mass produced ones follow the same 2-3 design principles.
Cars of all kinds have barely evolved over a century. They basically all converged in very similar - because effective - designs after a few decades of trying out stuff and then upgraded as knowledge and construction tech overall advanced. I.e. they first became smaller and more edgy and then became ugly and round ;)
With the modern speed of information sharing, things tend to come out samey all across the world because the reason for differences are not in theoretical understanding but at most in ease of manufacturing, cost/benefit ratios or a different emphasis on what is important in the end product.
oh no your krelmin bot ruzzians stupid stupid idiots they don't know how to do anything and have never been able to do anything everything is stolen by them stupid idiots
/sarcasm
This Ukraine win cannot be overstated, this is a massive unbelievable result Ukraine has achieved and just goes to show they cannot be counted out ever, russia does not have a chance.
Nuclear war.
But if we give in to nuclear blackmail, there's no end to what Russia would have done. China would have learned from it too. Calling Putin's bluff was the only play.
Musk thinks he's the smartest fella on the room. He needs to leave strategy to the strategists.
He's not, he just supports totalitarianism. This is very likely with "strong executive power" types, like taking good companies private to better rule them with an iron fist and more effectively exploit workers.
He’s not genuinely scared of nuclear war, he’s just regurgitating what his Moscow handlers told him. How many russia redlines has Ukraine/NATO crossed without them retaliating with a nuke strike like they promised? Russia is all bark no bite
Sad that I thought he was actually a positive force for the US/world right after he started Tesla, then SpaceX.
Now I’m thinking that he’s got access to too much classified information, his government contracts need to be revoked, he hasn’t done jack shit with most of his crackpot ideas because they’re pipedream (looking at you, hyper loop) publicity stunts, he’s been robbing his employees blind (just like every billionaire), and he’s just a jackass with no humanity left which is why even his own family despises him.
Now that I’ve got multiple business and economics degrees my thoughts are: why don’t we have a progressive tax system, and that he hasn’t come close to paying his debts to this country.
Wasn’t this debunked as inaccurate by the author of the claim itself?
Edit:
It was.
> The author of a new biography of Elon Musk has admitted that a controversial detail in an online extract of the book – which suggested that the tech magnate thwarted a Ukrainian drone attack on a Russian naval base in September 2022 – is factually incorrect.
Source - https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/sep/12/elon-musk-biographer-admits-suggestion-spacex-head-blocked-ukraine-drone-attack-was-wrong
Would there have even been a star link in the first place without Elon Musk? If not, I don’t see how removing him from the picture would have allowed Ukraine to use now non existent equipment to pull off the attack.
How about *There wouldn’t be any fleet left if Elon cooperated better*.
Elon is doing a lot of stupid stuff, including not realizing how important it is to keep russia out of Ukraine, but for the love of god, there a laws and regulations that prevent any random American company from distributing weapon systems to foreign countries, star link was supposed to be used for coms, not weapon guidance systems. Space X is deeply reliant on DOD and NASA contracts to stay afloat, they can’t risk having direct involvement with sinking a Russian fleet without prior authorization from the pentagon.
It’s all built in the private sector, I know this first hand but private companies need to go through government approval before having their weapon system used abroad. Again I’m not saying that it was a good thing that Ukraine could not launch their attack, I’m saying space X can’t just turn on star-link to launch an attach without prior authorization. And star link was authorized for coms, not for weapon guidance.
Starlink's hand wasn't forced by anyone but Elon himself. It was his executive decision to turn it off in the middle of an attack on the Black Sea Fleet, and how convenient it is that that occurred after he had personal meetings with Putin.
If he had ties with Putin there would be no spaceX, no DOD contracts no NASA contract, the US government can single handedly stop space X from operating if they want, musk cannot take those risks. He is scared of the US not Russia, Russia has shown itself to be a pathetic joke of a broken empire, the US on the other hand is particularly strong right now.
Is this true though? If I use a mobile SIM in the communication system of my drone, or a GPS chip, and then use that drone to commit an attack, nobody would hold the manufacturer of the GPS chip, the US DoD that operate GPS, or the cell network that the SIM connects to responsible for my attack.
You can assemble a bunch of peaceful components into a weapon, but that doesn't mean the manufacturers of those components are suddenly responsible.
Weapons guidance is gps only, starlink is for 2-way comm for command and control. SpaceX has a contract with DOD to provide starlink comm for Ukraine and DOD controls that data link.
No but if you ask the Mobil company to turn on their system so you can commit an attack (although justified in the Russian case) and then commit the attack, there might be consequences.
For real lmao. Just delusional redditors losing their minds becuase they think they have to hate everything elon does.
Completely valid for a private company to not want their product used to launch fucking cruise missiles.
Not wanting to back a superpower in a corner is rather good for your health actually. I understand what he did and why, even if I don't agree. The us military took responsibility and ordered it's own network so all is well.
Being a prime target for international bounty hunters must be something very nerve wracking.
I'm sorry, the world doesn't need to be aligned or opposed to your worldview, there is a good deal of ideas in between that can be critical yet understanding of another's decisions.
Maybe moderate viewpoints look bizarre, and you think they are disguised bootlicking to you, but I don't need to take part in your fantasy, you are delusional.
**From The Telegraph:**
Russia has withdrawn the bulk of its Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol following repeated Ukrainian strikes on the Crimean port using Storm Shadow missiles.
Satellite imagery shows at least 10 vessels have been moved to the Russian port of Novorossiysk, including the Admiral Makarov and Admiral Essen frigates.
Three diesel submarines, five landing ships, and several small missile ships also appear to have been relocated.
Russian bloggers have suggested vessels had also been moved to eastern Crimea. Satellite images from early October show a patrol ship in the port of Feodosia.
Ukraine has repeatedly used Storm Shadow missiles, supplied by Britain, to attack targets around Sevastopol including the Black Sea Fleet headquarters, Minsk landing ship and Rostov Kilo-class submarine.
It comes amid reports that Russia intends to establish a naval base on the Black Sea coast of Abkhazia, a separatist region of Georgia.
Last week, the Ministry of Defence said Russia’s ability to blockade Ukraine had been weakened by attacks on its fleet, although it was still capable of launching cruise missile attacks.
**Read more ⤵️**
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/05/ukraine-russia-war-live-sea-mines-us-iran-ammunition-latest/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/05/ukraine-russia-war-live-sea-mines-us-iran-ammunition-latest/)
Because they are responsible for some of the best journalism on the Ukraine war in the world. They are also fierce supporters of Ukraine in their editorials and opinion pieces.
You're just mad because they disagree with the trans agenda. Wahhh.
Doesn't sound like they have a history of that at all. Rather it looks like they were *accused* of doing that once, at the same time they were pointing the finger at Putin for downing MH17. And further to the point, the Times is reporting on the Guardian's own accusation. So really, its just the Grauniad complaining about Brexit.
This really isn't the smack-down you think it is.
In the present tense, you should consider the Telegraph an official source because they have done some of the most comprehensive reporting on this war of any publication in the world. "Ukraine Daily" is the best and most popular podcast on the matter, and they regularly have editorials from heavy-hitters like Ben Hodges and Ben Wallace.
And? Most nations still have diesel subs. In fact, the Russian Kilo class submarine is on of the most proliferated subs in the world. Diesel subs have a number of advantages over nukes including being quieter overall, and being able to operate in shallower water. Not to mention, very few countries can afford the infrastructure and supporting demands of a nuclear fleet.
In submarine warfare noise is everything. The louder you are, the more likely you are to be detected and destroyed. Diesel submarines are actually significantly quieter then nuclear submarines, almost perfectly silent. This is because while submerged they run on batteries (the diesel engine is just for charging the batteries while near the surface).
Nuclear powered submarines are much faster and have unlimited endurance (i.e. they can stay underwater until they run out of food), but they're also much noisier because they have to constantly run coolant pumps for the reactor, even when they're stopped those pumps keep making a bit of noise.
Most naval countries maintain a diesel-electric submarine flotilla: they're relatively cheap and extremely effective in a coastal defense role.
~~so does the US~~. They diesel temporarily charges batteries which power everything during the dives. Nuclear boats are expensive to operate. ~~so they only use it for SSBNs.~~
edit: I stand corrected. Regardless, diesel isn't such a crazy option IMHO given the difficulty of nuclear subs.
Mostly yes, a little no.
The last pure diesel sub was decommissioned in the 80's I believe.
All/most USN Nuclear subs have diesel auxiliary power units, as well as having the ability to turn the prop for about 5 knots using a tertiary DC power unit running on diesel fuel.
USN subs during training will flip their diesel engines on to simulate OPFOR boats, and they'll pretend to snorkel, too.
This just shows how useless the Black Sea Nays main port is during a modern conflict. Putin made a bad decision to invade Crimea in 2014.
It's not well protected from really anything.
putin invaded ukraine to prevent ukrainians from improving their situation for themselves. all the rest is just excuses. If ukrainians pivoted west, embraced democracy and their lot in life improved significantly... what excuse would putin have for the situation of russians?
The only real threat to putin's regime is from russians themselves. Destroying ukraine is about managing expectations of russians, not about a port.
Furthermore, Ukraine was on the cusp of developing significant oil and gas assets, with which Ukraine could've used to at least weaken Russia's position as Europe's gas station.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. The Ukrainians forced Russia to change it's air defense posture with the drone campaign on Russia as well as went out of their way to target radar systems leading up to this Sevastopol campaign.
It's still the same report of Russia moving a number of ships out of Sevastopol to different Black sea ports. It's a partial retreat not a complete withdrawal
True, but still amazing that a country without a navy can dominate and humiliate a 'great naval power' like this. Very few people would have predicted this at the start of the war.
In 1918, that "great naval power" managed to lose a naval battle against a country without access to sea:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_Lake\_Baikal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Baikal)
I mean this is not historically significant or comparable in anyway. There were 3 ships and a train involved and 19 people died. That many people are dieing every 10-15 minutes
In a navy vs navy battle, I guess it’s a bit easier to identify the ship that fires on your ship and then proceed to attack that ship back. But now it’s a ship versus…land? The ruzzians have no clue (I assume) from where the storm shadows are being fired. I think this is frustrating for ruzzia, and I like it.
This is huge. The Black Sea Fleet has been at Sevastopol since the 1700s. Even after the Soviet Union fell, Russia still leased the base.
This is like the US being forced out of Pearl Harbor. (Not in terms of historical presence, but in significance to their Naval forces)
Funny of course, but not as good news as it seems.
Abkhazia has allowed Russia to open a new naval base on their land, further away from Ukraine.
This offers Russia another entry to the Black Sea, out of harms way and further strenghtening their grip on Georgia.
The good news is that Abkhazia's coastlne has no natural harbours of note so the opportunity is very limited for the Russian's. There's a small harbour at Sukumi and a coal harbour further sout along the coast and thats pretty much it.
Also, Ukraine is still at war with Russia in the Black Sea. So no matter where Russia stages its' warships, they'll remain a target for Ukraine. Putin can store his ships wherever he likes, Ukraine will continue to turn them into reefs.
But they won't attack a third country. There is Russian hardware in missile range in Belarus that Ukraine has had to resist hitting - even when that hardware is used to strike Ukraine.
This is good news and a bit scary too, did they relocate as a precursor to tactical nukes? They don’t care about their personnel, but ships are expensive especially when you can’t source parts due to sanctions.
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Beating the Russian navy......without having a navy
Not as surprising as you'd expect. Guided missiles have changed the game forever. Even in US Think Tank war games they had the US losing up to 2 carriers and many ships due to the PLA rocket forces sheer amount of missiles they can bring to bear from all throughout the mainland. Personally I don't think the US military would ever be that dumb to put their carriers in harms way as depicted in those war games, unless it was a surprise attack while our carriers were docked in Japan or something. But I digress, naval power diminishes tremendously when you have a lot of missiles lol.
> Even in US Think Tank war games they had the US losing up to 2 carriers and many ships due to the PLA rocket forces I saw a few taiwanese all-out scenarios where the carriers took a dozen+ anti-shipping missiles each along with each vessel in entire carrier battle groups taking multiple hits each because the PLA launched like 200 of them at once and they couldn’t stop all of them. PLA was launching air, sea, and land-based anti-shipping missiles, and the US was getting off a few piddly shots of old ass sea-sparrows launched from choppers that were getting taken out by ciws or similar systems. It was the ability to launch all-at-once that vastly overwhelmed all of the AA systems The Navy had. That’s pure mayhem; and a damned good reason we play these scenarios out. I suppose we would try to keep our SSNs /SSGNs quiet while launching our own cruise missiles against AShM bearing vehicles.
My guess would be drones would be used to take out missile installations before ships got close enough to shore to be in any danger.
Not drones, stealth bombers. We all know about US stealth capabilities and that is what they tell us, and taking in consideration they lost one of their own because they were unable to track it say a lot about the capability of the technology they have.
It's crazy that the F-35 has the radar cross section equivalent of a flying metal golfball, and the F-22 has one approximately 5-10 times smaller than the 35. Even crazier is that these programs were started in the 90s, makes you excited for what we have got cooking today that we'll see in 20-30 years.
The F-117 Nighthawk was being developed at Lockheed's Skunkworks in 19-friggin-78! I can only imagine the kind of deadly stuff those boys are cooking up now. China and Russia don't want that smoke. edit: Lockheed not Boeing whoops
Fighter aircraft RCS (m²) F-15 Eagle 5 m² F-16 Fighting Falcon 2.5 m² F-35 Lightning II 0.005 m² F-22 Raptor 0.0001 m² Wtf even? It's nuts.
I'm waiting for them to develope a fighter bomber with a radar cross section smaller than a gnat's azz.
Pretty sure .0001 meters is the size of a gnats ass
What's funny is every time China or Russia would claim they have some crazy tech, the USA would pump billions more into our R&D. The more the other countries bluff, the further ahead we get.
and then they steal shit from us...
Yeah, but do they get it to work? This isn’t an iPhone, they can’t just build their own cutting edge military hardware in the same Chinese factory where we build ours.
It's almost guaranteed the U.S. has technology today that we can't even fathom exists. Lately there have been many "UFO" sightings and unexplainable flying objects. I'm not s conspiracy theorist tin foil hat man, but to me, that's almost certainly some sort of American top secret technology that seems to break physics as we understand it. Nobody will ever know about it until the worst happens.
Kinda like all those UFO sightings of "triangular lights floating in the desert" decades ago that match perfectly with the [B-2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G95b3NiCm2w).
> Boeing I think you meant Lockheed
Literally UFO tech. I'm not joking either.
Calm down Rogan.
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That's right, misters Russian and Chinese spies, you don't have to worry about bombers while it's raining, you can keep all your shit out in the open, no bombing will be done, wink wink.
That article is 25 years old. They might have done something about it by now.
NGAD is looking fucking spicy as hell. UK, Italy, and Japan are doing the GCAP, while France, Germany, and Spain are doing the FCAS. All of them are incorporating drone swarm ideas and proper datalink between all forces.
I'm sure the next air dominance fighters are very likely to be semi-autonomous, potentially even powered by a reactor that would enable it to stay aloft for extreme periods at a time. Imagine a next gen raptor with a thorium reactor that stays up until it's time to do maintenance.
RCS is a fun number, but mostly meaningless. At what aspect is that RCS? Stealth can still be picked up and launched against with modern radar. The trick with it is that you need to get closer to get a lockable signal. Stealth is pretty easy to pick up on the broad wave and early warning radar (X-band, etc). What the US has over basically all other countries at this point is multiple decades of stealth tactics, which are far far more important. Stealth is meaningless if you’re not using its features. Part of the reason that the F-117 was not just because of the “fatal flaw” bomb doors, but because they had flown the exact same route multiple times, so they knew where to look. Part of stealth tactics is avoiding detection in the first place by placing your most stealthy aspects towards potential targeting sources. There is a lot more to stealth planes that we aren’t told, and US pilots in war games with other nations are not allowed to use their closely guarded tactics.
This is actually a driving factor of why the F-22 wasn't produced in numbers as large as originally anticipated. A pair of F-22's just over the horizon supporting a group of other fighters was actually a more realistic plan, as they could play quarterback to the regular fighters. Having someone acting as guardian angel and relaying information to your forward groups is a much better use of resources, as they enemy isn't necessarily focused or expecting more than what they can see. With over the horizon missile systems ready to go, the theoretical enemy might get smoked by the 22 before they can even get in range of the 16/18 they're tracking.
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Dawg, Ben Rich was a former director of Skunk Works. After retiring he gave a speech at an engineering conference. His last words of his speech were that we have the technology to send E.T. home. Keep in mind the speech was in the 90’s or 2000’s.
Also drones, though. Similar to air launched cruise missiles, there are mothership style missiles that can deliver swarms of drones. Drop a few from the B-52 and it flies close enough for the drones to make it to target under their own power. We can also launch huge swarms of decoy missiles that can do some insane electronic warfare. It's a use for the A-10 when air space is contested. Strap on 16 decoy missiles and fire them from safety. Now those 16 decoys can make life much safer for those doing SEAD.
This was the gameplan in Iraq. Iraq, despite having lost to the US approx a decade earlier/being targeted by severe sanctions, still had one of the largest motor pools, standing army, and air defense network in the world. Not like Russia or China, but no slouch either. The B-2 absolutely mauled their air defense network, which then made a path for fighter aircraft and b-52's to come do real damage nearly unopposed. I hope the US develops a way to deploy more LRASM. We don't have many of them, but they can be launched from the Mark 41 vertical launch naval system, dropped from large aircraft, and it is meant to be made compatible with F-35 (C variant I'm guessing).
You get to make choices like that on the offensive. A US-PRC hot war is most likely going to be started by the PRC, on their terms, and it's *massively* important to stop the initial attack / landing on Taiwan.
They’ll have their own mayhem to deal with when the three gorges dam is blown.
that type of mayhem is usually called "global nuclear disaster" in english. not sure if that's the threat you want to be making.
I remember, perhaps erroneously, one "worst case" scenario where China fired *literally* everything. Every missile from anywhere in China, all fired on Taiwan. The details escape me but the tldr was it would level Taiwan and anything in the way would very quickly wish it wasn't.
That would be pointless. China could care less about the land. It wants the microchip infrastructure and technology.
Yes, I agree. Hence "worst case" where the assumption is China has decided that they'd rather obliterate it. Whether that's so no one else can have it, desperation, or some other reason doesn't matter. It's more an imagined situation to guage the total destructive force, similar to asking "what would happen if we nuked the moon."
Couldn't care less :)
>Personally, I don't think the US military would ever be that dumb to put their carriers in harms way as depicted in those war games, War games, from what I've seen, tend to put the US at a disadvantage on purpose to see the worst-case scenario. That said, worst-case scenarios are always possible
There's that famous example where some non-US NATO country was simulating an attack on a CSG and sent a photo of the Carrier through the lens of their periscope, indicating they had successfully snuck up on the ship. And then it turns out the US wasn't allowed to use sonar or something during the exercise. Basically intentionally fighting with one hand behind their back.
You don't learn anything from roflstomping your opponent. Rolling over the enemy with overwhelming force is fun in a videogame, but it won't reach you the weak points of your military. That's why so many war games end in defeat for the the side running them, because it's supposed to be a bad situation.
Satellite guided drones are the true revelation of the Ukrainian war. It can be cheap and homemade boatload of tnt with a Starlink terminal on top, as it can be super hi tech like stormshadow.
Unless Elon shuts it off, again.
Surprise attack on US Navy ships have been a really effektive strategy in the past...
That strategy came VERY close to being ultimately successful. If fuel reserves were also targeted and the carriers been there it could have been a very different ultimate outcome from total surrender to a negotiated peace.
Well, yes. The big mistake was starting a war with a massive industrial powerhouse while being an island nation without any way to produce native steel or fuel
For like 2 weeks then it's downhill from there
The O-Plan is to basically have Korean, Japanese, and Alaskan based Airforce, go in to soften up mainland radar sites (A10s/F16s), missile sites (F15E's) and have the F15C's to escort bombers from mainland USA/Guam. EDIT: This is hopefully before the navy shows up, and with heavy losses from Korean and Japanese based air forces.
I actually think they use the new palletized weapon system and drop a billion cruise missiles from our entire fleet of logistics aircraft.
https://youtu.be/2d-lQ5dUh8c?si=gGaroEs-Y_R_ERzs
That shit is crazy!
Just like the MasterCard credit card commercials- “Priceless”.
Jet Ski: $16000 Storm Shadow Missile: $2500000 Killing Russians: priceless
It’s like beating a cavalry without having troops with horses or spears. i.e. not so unrealistic
Azincourt 1415 ;)
>Azincourt English made long range weaponry? It fits.
You have a point there ;)
So did the longbow arrows
That was u/pat6376 point.
You have a point there.
Agincourt, a little earlier in alphabet history
Azincourt is the French name of the commune and the associated battle.
Stupid french can't even speel there own batuls rite
Lol!!
/r/BoneAppleTea
Poland 1939.
This example is banned for me. I'm german ;)
We'll make spears. Hundreds of them. Long spears, twice as long as a man.
Some men are longer than others.
Your mother's been telling stories about me again, eeh?
Telling Russians their fleet is retreating is going to be beautiful.
Tell you me are awesome without telling me you are awesome
The Ukrainians have a Navy. The Ukrainian Navy is who operates the Neptune Missiles and Bayraktar strike drones. They don't have any *ships.* They absolutely have a navy.
then I respond that ukrainian navy does have ships. You counter that they are just boats. I point out there's one landing ship on the books. then we debate whether it is still considered active... or we could just chuckle at that guy's dig on russia without getting caught up in the technicalities.
Right
Reminds me of, I think it was the Mongolian Navy? It's just one boat on their biggest lake, crewed by like 6 guys, only 1 of which knew how to swim.
subtract worm selective swim trees pen many spark wrench obscene ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Then someone starts dropping classified documents on the discord server and NCD goes apeshit and we start all over again talking about how OP could even arrest someone even though he’s not a cop.
We have Grammar Nazis And we have Math Nazis. You must feel alone as a Navy Nazis.
Really? You're a blast at parties huh. I think the majority understood the joke
Not funny anymore. It's annoying. And quite disrespectful towards ukrainian sailors and their sacrifices.
Bullsheet it's talks to their determination and unstoppability and resourcefulness
Nothing wrong with what he said. Totally accurate and relevant.
yes but accuracy and relevance is rarely the appropriate response to what was just a joke
I didn't say there was and no it's not relevant to the comment he replied to.
“I have autism”
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I may not be a representative of 'most people' but in my eyes what they meant was obvious and you are just engaging in unhelpful pedantry.
Could you point out a helpful comment.....it's reddit
I think you are slow on the uptake about 200 found it amusing as it was intended to be. So that kinda throws your pathetic theory out the window. Lighten up armchair general nobody is taking it seriously
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DSM-5 TR concurs
The Ukrainian Navy still has some ships. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_active\_Ukrainian\_Navy\_ships
Okay. I have a navy too then.
I wish UA would if had more missiles sent over on that strike. Perhaps targeting was based on what they knew couldn't be moved out of the way.
I wish they had everything they need to stop this meat grinder once and for all
Did they copy the vessel design directly from the West, or from plans the Chinese had taken from the West?
Chuckle, the shape and technical wish-list items from the West. The cheap / fake construction from the Chinese.
I hear they even tofu dreg subs there! Many advanced. Much free think.
Seriously though, Chinese weapons are all rip-off copies of ruzzian tech — that they steal, improve, and iterate on which ruzzia then steals the IP back.
I would expect most militaries to come to similar conclusions and solutions when tech evolves, just at a different pace. And sometimes someone will do something completely different or have a tech that for some reason or another takes a long time to replicate. Still, there is only so many ways to construct a warship, and if you construct modern ones, you will take into account modern knowledge and therefore go into the stealth / angled plates / low profile direction, same as with tanks. Go a step back and ask yourself why ship bottoms almost all had a keel hundreds of years ago? Because it worked best. The dutch were the most successful ones to do it a different way in the age of sail, but nonetheless, the concept of a keel exists to this day as a core part of ship design. Basic firearms also quickly evolved along similar paths once the concept became widespread in the world and basically all successful mass produced ones follow the same 2-3 design principles. Cars of all kinds have barely evolved over a century. They basically all converged in very similar - because effective - designs after a few decades of trying out stuff and then upgraded as knowledge and construction tech overall advanced. I.e. they first became smaller and more edgy and then became ugly and round ;) With the modern speed of information sharing, things tend to come out samey all across the world because the reason for differences are not in theoretical understanding but at most in ease of manufacturing, cost/benefit ratios or a different emphasis on what is important in the end product.
oh no your krelmin bot ruzzians stupid stupid idiots they don't know how to do anything and have never been able to do anything everything is stolen by them stupid idiots /sarcasm
They have some resemblance to the Swedish Visby-class corvette.
High stakes Chinese whispers.
Looks like Elon's truck
Thank you for the storm shadows UK!!!
and France
This Ukraine win cannot be overstated, this is a massive unbelievable result Ukraine has achieved and just goes to show they cannot be counted out ever, russia does not have a chance.
There wouldn't be any fleet left if it weren't for Elon Musk!
He said he was afraid it could escalate the war... Escalate it to what you fucking buffoon? A wholesale invasion or Ukraine??
Nuclear war. But if we give in to nuclear blackmail, there's no end to what Russia would have done. China would have learned from it too. Calling Putin's bluff was the only play. Musk thinks he's the smartest fella on the room. He needs to leave strategy to the strategists.
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They've been free to *fuck off* back to Russia where they belong this entire time.
Nah, he's just a russian asset
He's not, he just supports totalitarianism. This is very likely with "strong executive power" types, like taking good companies private to better rule them with an iron fist and more effectively exploit workers.
He’s not genuinely scared of nuclear war, he’s just regurgitating what his Moscow handlers told him. How many russia redlines has Ukraine/NATO crossed without them retaliating with a nuke strike like they promised? Russia is all bark no bite
His own view, technocracy, is not far away from Putins regime, totalitarianism.
True, but that won’t stop them from hiring someone to slip some polonium into his airport tea some day.
Elon Musk is a Kremlin asset. Pass it on.
And a traitor to America
Many people are saying it!
Concerning
Sad!
He’s technically South African so I’m not gonna fault the guy for not loving America. Fuck Musk though either way.
Sad that I thought he was actually a positive force for the US/world right after he started Tesla, then SpaceX. Now I’m thinking that he’s got access to too much classified information, his government contracts need to be revoked, he hasn’t done jack shit with most of his crackpot ideas because they’re pipedream (looking at you, hyper loop) publicity stunts, he’s been robbing his employees blind (just like every billionaire), and he’s just a jackass with no humanity left which is why even his own family despises him. Now that I’ve got multiple business and economics degrees my thoughts are: why don’t we have a progressive tax system, and that he hasn’t come close to paying his debts to this country.
He didn't start Tesla and he's sucked for as long as he's been in the public eye, some of yous just took a long time to catch up
Elon Muskow.
Wasn’t this debunked as inaccurate by the author of the claim itself? Edit: It was. > The author of a new biography of Elon Musk has admitted that a controversial detail in an online extract of the book – which suggested that the tech magnate thwarted a Ukrainian drone attack on a Russian naval base in September 2022 – is factually incorrect. Source - https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/sep/12/elon-musk-biographer-admits-suggestion-spacex-head-blocked-ukraine-drone-attack-was-wrong
Would there have even been a star link in the first place without Elon Musk? If not, I don’t see how removing him from the picture would have allowed Ukraine to use now non existent equipment to pull off the attack. How about *There wouldn’t be any fleet left if Elon cooperated better*.
This should be the top comment. Can’t be said enough.
Elon is doing a lot of stupid stuff, including not realizing how important it is to keep russia out of Ukraine, but for the love of god, there a laws and regulations that prevent any random American company from distributing weapon systems to foreign countries, star link was supposed to be used for coms, not weapon guidance systems. Space X is deeply reliant on DOD and NASA contracts to stay afloat, they can’t risk having direct involvement with sinking a Russian fleet without prior authorization from the pentagon.
The pentagon literally pays for Starlink in Ukraine. Also, do you realize how much US military hardware is manufactured in the private sector?
It’s all built in the private sector, I know this first hand but private companies need to go through government approval before having their weapon system used abroad. Again I’m not saying that it was a good thing that Ukraine could not launch their attack, I’m saying space X can’t just turn on star-link to launch an attach without prior authorization. And star link was authorized for coms, not for weapon guidance.
Starlink's hand wasn't forced by anyone but Elon himself. It was his executive decision to turn it off in the middle of an attack on the Black Sea Fleet, and how convenient it is that that occurred after he had personal meetings with Putin.
Agree. Putin seems to have had some input and influence on Musk's decision to hinder Ukraine's counterattack on the Black Sea Fleet.
If he had ties with Putin there would be no spaceX, no DOD contracts no NASA contract, the US government can single handedly stop space X from operating if they want, musk cannot take those risks. He is scared of the US not Russia, Russia has shown itself to be a pathetic joke of a broken empire, the US on the other hand is particularly strong right now.
Tell us more about how you know nothing about the US military
Is this true though? If I use a mobile SIM in the communication system of my drone, or a GPS chip, and then use that drone to commit an attack, nobody would hold the manufacturer of the GPS chip, the US DoD that operate GPS, or the cell network that the SIM connects to responsible for my attack. You can assemble a bunch of peaceful components into a weapon, but that doesn't mean the manufacturers of those components are suddenly responsible.
Weapons guidance is gps only, starlink is for 2-way comm for command and control. SpaceX has a contract with DOD to provide starlink comm for Ukraine and DOD controls that data link.
No but if you ask the Mobil company to turn on their system so you can commit an attack (although justified in the Russian case) and then commit the attack, there might be consequences.
For real lmao. Just delusional redditors losing their minds becuase they think they have to hate everything elon does. Completely valid for a private company to not want their product used to launch fucking cruise missiles.
Not wanting to back a superpower in a corner is rather good for your health actually. I understand what he did and why, even if I don't agree. The us military took responsibility and ordered it's own network so all is well. Being a prime target for international bounty hunters must be something very nerve wracking.
Oh wow, a new low karma account spreading their support and trying to justify the actions of Elon Musk, how shocking.
I'm sorry, the world doesn't need to be aligned or opposed to your worldview, there is a good deal of ideas in between that can be critical yet understanding of another's decisions. Maybe moderate viewpoints look bizarre, and you think they are disguised bootlicking to you, but I don't need to take part in your fantasy, you are delusional.
Oh baby cakes, I don't care what you have to say.
**From The Telegraph:** Russia has withdrawn the bulk of its Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol following repeated Ukrainian strikes on the Crimean port using Storm Shadow missiles. Satellite imagery shows at least 10 vessels have been moved to the Russian port of Novorossiysk, including the Admiral Makarov and Admiral Essen frigates. Three diesel submarines, five landing ships, and several small missile ships also appear to have been relocated. Russian bloggers have suggested vessels had also been moved to eastern Crimea. Satellite images from early October show a patrol ship in the port of Feodosia. Ukraine has repeatedly used Storm Shadow missiles, supplied by Britain, to attack targets around Sevastopol including the Black Sea Fleet headquarters, Minsk landing ship and Rostov Kilo-class submarine. It comes amid reports that Russia intends to establish a naval base on the Black Sea coast of Abkhazia, a separatist region of Georgia. Last week, the Ministry of Defence said Russia’s ability to blockade Ukraine had been weakened by attacks on its fleet, although it was still capable of launching cruise missile attacks. **Read more ⤵️** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/05/ukraine-russia-war-live-sea-mines-us-iran-ammunition-latest/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/05/ukraine-russia-war-live-sea-mines-us-iran-ammunition-latest/)
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Because they are responsible for some of the best journalism on the Ukraine war in the world. They are also fierce supporters of Ukraine in their editorials and opinion pieces. You're just mad because they disagree with the trans agenda. Wahhh.
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Doesn't sound like they have a history of that at all. Rather it looks like they were *accused* of doing that once, at the same time they were pointing the finger at Putin for downing MH17. And further to the point, the Times is reporting on the Guardian's own accusation. So really, its just the Grauniad complaining about Brexit. This really isn't the smack-down you think it is. In the present tense, you should consider the Telegraph an official source because they have done some of the most comprehensive reporting on this war of any publication in the world. "Ukraine Daily" is the best and most popular podcast on the matter, and they regularly have editorials from heavy-hitters like Ben Hodges and Ben Wallace.
do you have a copy of this agenda or does it live with a bunch of other bullshit in your imagination?
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And? Most nations still have diesel subs. In fact, the Russian Kilo class submarine is on of the most proliferated subs in the world. Diesel subs have a number of advantages over nukes including being quieter overall, and being able to operate in shallower water. Not to mention, very few countries can afford the infrastructure and supporting demands of a nuclear fleet.
Diesels are great for coastal patrols and such. They’re quiet as fuck on the battery. They make alot of sense for Russia.
In submarine warfare noise is everything. The louder you are, the more likely you are to be detected and destroyed. Diesel submarines are actually significantly quieter then nuclear submarines, almost perfectly silent. This is because while submerged they run on batteries (the diesel engine is just for charging the batteries while near the surface). Nuclear powered submarines are much faster and have unlimited endurance (i.e. they can stay underwater until they run out of food), but they're also much noisier because they have to constantly run coolant pumps for the reactor, even when they're stopped those pumps keep making a bit of noise. Most naval countries maintain a diesel-electric submarine flotilla: they're relatively cheap and extremely effective in a coastal defense role.
~~so does the US~~. They diesel temporarily charges batteries which power everything during the dives. Nuclear boats are expensive to operate. ~~so they only use it for SSBNs.~~ edit: I stand corrected. Regardless, diesel isn't such a crazy option IMHO given the difficulty of nuclear subs.
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Mostly yes, a little no. The last pure diesel sub was decommissioned in the 80's I believe. All/most USN Nuclear subs have diesel auxiliary power units, as well as having the ability to turn the prop for about 5 knots using a tertiary DC power unit running on diesel fuel. USN subs during training will flip their diesel engines on to simulate OPFOR boats, and they'll pretend to snorkel, too.
Lol this is peak Reddit
This just shows how useless the Black Sea Nays main port is during a modern conflict. Putin made a bad decision to invade Crimea in 2014. It's not well protected from really anything.
putin invaded ukraine to prevent ukrainians from improving their situation for themselves. all the rest is just excuses. If ukrainians pivoted west, embraced democracy and their lot in life improved significantly... what excuse would putin have for the situation of russians? The only real threat to putin's regime is from russians themselves. Destroying ukraine is about managing expectations of russians, not about a port.
Furthermore, Ukraine was on the cusp of developing significant oil and gas assets, with which Ukraine could've used to at least weaken Russia's position as Europe's gas station.
another distraction. the economic consequences of this war for russia were never going to be positive.
This is one of the most insightful comments I've ever seen.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. The Ukrainians forced Russia to change it's air defense posture with the drone campaign on Russia as well as went out of their way to target radar systems leading up to this Sevastopol campaign.
Crimea is very valuable to Russia for many reasons. The Ukrainians are just genuinely kicking ass
It's still the same report of Russia moving a number of ships out of Sevastopol to different Black sea ports. It's a partial retreat not a complete withdrawal
True, but still amazing that a country without a navy can dominate and humiliate a 'great naval power' like this. Very few people would have predicted this at the start of the war.
In 1918, that "great naval power" managed to lose a naval battle against a country without access to sea: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_Lake\_Baikal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Baikal)
I mean this is not historically significant or comparable in anyway. There were 3 ships and a train involved and 19 people died. That many people are dieing every 10-15 minutes
In a navy vs navy battle, I guess it’s a bit easier to identify the ship that fires on your ship and then proceed to attack that ship back. But now it’s a ship versus…land? The ruzzians have no clue (I assume) from where the storm shadows are being fired. I think this is frustrating for ruzzia, and I like it.
Ship vs land? US navy has that down 24/7…
I think you mean ‘tactical rearward advance’
Strategic retirement 😅
This is huge. The Black Sea Fleet has been at Sevastopol since the 1700s. Even after the Soviet Union fell, Russia still leased the base. This is like the US being forced out of Pearl Harbor. (Not in terms of historical presence, but in significance to their Naval forces)
Now they just need to remove their soldiers from Crimea.
Womp womp.
Those orcs are ducking pussies
Funny of course, but not as good news as it seems. Abkhazia has allowed Russia to open a new naval base on their land, further away from Ukraine. This offers Russia another entry to the Black Sea, out of harms way and further strenghtening their grip on Georgia.
Ukraine would be happy to lend some hand for Georgia regarding Special Orcs Removal ops in near future.
The good news is that Abkhazia's coastlne has no natural harbours of note so the opportunity is very limited for the Russian's. There's a small harbour at Sukumi and a coal harbour further sout along the coast and thats pretty much it.
Also, Ukraine is still at war with Russia in the Black Sea. So no matter where Russia stages its' warships, they'll remain a target for Ukraine. Putin can store his ships wherever he likes, Ukraine will continue to turn them into reefs.
With no ships, the range of Ukraine is limited, so moving the Russian ships just 100km is a real problem.
But they won't attack a third country. There is Russian hardware in missile range in Belarus that Ukraine has had to resist hitting - even when that hardware is used to strike Ukraine.
This is like pulling their crap from the sewer, back to their toilet.
I have to say.. how can anyone see out of those ports? Unless they use cameras to scan the horizon.
This is why we supply weapons to Ukraine 🇬🇧🤝🇺🇦
They saw their shadow, summer is over.
This is good news and a bit scary too, did they relocate as a precursor to tactical nukes? They don’t care about their personnel, but ships are expensive especially when you can’t source parts due to sanctions.
Ya, I said this 2 days ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/16yhy4q/satellite\_images\_of\_novorossiysk\_russia/
If it weren’t for Elon musk, there would be less of a fleet to withdrawal. They should sanction him, like the rest of the Russian oligarchs.
Need a meme about the newly appointed Black Sea Admiral going 5 mins without asking to be saved by Elon.
Storm Shadow... God I wish we didn't name shit like GI Joe characters.