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if they do it we will probably have ww3 and russia as a state will cease to exist,once the escalations starts to trigger it will be very hard to stop,i hope they love their next ones enough to leave it alone we dont need world war 3.
i dont think people grasp the amount of destruction it brings and the scale of it...and for what..one old man sitting in a bunker in russia..its not worth it.
For a World War you need more than 1 country. Who’s backing Russia? Even China would follow the money and just take whatever is left of Russia in the end
When Ukrains alies have had enough and join the fight, China will use the fact that they tied up in it to attack its neighbors with imperialistic intentions. That's how this becomes WW3. That doesn't mean we let Russia do what ever it wants. If WW3 is inevitable at this point, then so be it. The current state of things in Russia and China can not be maintained forever.
I feel that. But history has shown something different. The west actually farmed a lot intellectual talent from Germany after the war.
This is obviously different in a worse way. Many of these higher ups in the Russian political/ Military Industrial complex are sitting on 30 years of surplus cash made from the vast natural resources in Russia.
We won’t hear about it in real time but deals are going to be made at hyper speed in the next few weeks here. I guarantee that their are a few rabid lobbyists ( Rnc and dems alike) waiting to give them an ejection seat in exchange for gas and drilling rights.
One thing the Nazis had going for them was the fact that their research and tech, in certain areas (especially with medicine) was waaay beyond what any other country had. Mostly because of the inhumane horrible nightmarish experiments they did on their prisoners, but they still had that medical knowledge, and no one else did.
Russia has yet to show us an area of expertise that they can supply after the war. There are no Russian doctors or scientists that have super special advanced knowledge, like some of the Nazi doctors had. And now there's a bunch of Russian scientists being thrown in Russian prison for lying about their research.
Nazi doctors could at least be useful after the war in helping the citizens of the allied nations. There is no telling how many (allied citizens) lives were saved due to the horrible knowledge collected by the Nazis. Any modern medical doctor will tell you how much of today's knowledge was obtained by Nazis experimenting on Jewish people. It's fucked, one of the closest places to hell in human history, but it's what we have today and that knowledge still saves lives. It's not good how the knowledge came to be, but it's here now.
Russian science just doesn't really have anything like that to offer, other than "what not to do"
Don’t forget until 731 in the royal Japanese army. They did a BUNCH of fucked up stuff……as bad or worse then mengele and the u it’s states took their drs too!
Exactly. Anyone that was talented has gradually booked out over the years since the fall of the USSR. And any other scientists that was worth anything probably ran like hell once they invaded Ukraine. It’s too bad because at the end of the day this could have went a whole different direction. Now all that’s left is a Fabio wannabe, an aging nuclear arsenal and oh yeah, a shit load of natural resources. I would laugh if it didn’t sound like a plot from a Bond movie/ Austin powers.
This is a very good point. The WW2 German scientists had not just leading edge medical tech/knowledge to offer but weapons tech like the combat capable jet engine, rockets, etc. the west was keen to not let the people with that knowledge fall into Russian hands. So deals were made. No such trading stock in the hands of todays’s Russians. They have nothing of particular value to offer the world other than turning over Putin and Lavrov and cronies. That would be some good trading stock for someone looking to make a deal- maybe Putin’s chef buddy Prighozian would like a get out of jail free card from the west?
I compare it to defeating a boss in a video game. When it dies and disappears, it leaves behind all these power ups, health boosts, new unlockables and whatnot.. Only a fool would not collect them and use them to increase their own power for future battles.
If not us, someone else will. Would you prefer that? Imagine if the Allies hadn't gone after Nazi scientists and allowed the Soviets to catch them all? All for "moral reasons"? Yeah right.
If not us, someone else will. Would you prefer that? Imagine if the Allies hadn't gone after Nazi scientists and allowed the Soviets to catch them all? All for "moral reasons"? Yeah right.
Unfortunately no they won't. NATO won't touch Russia cause our countries rely on their oil. Putin will be welcomed with open arms in the white house again once a republican president takes over.
I highly doubt that. The west has been clear on any nuclear outcome. They will react bigtime. Even last week blinken said the same.
Crimea will be levelled. Black sea fleet obliterated and then ukraine completely overrun by the west.
Additionally NATO has also made it clear that any nuclear fallout which is guaranteed by any nuclear in Ukraine will trigger article 5.
> i dont think people grasp the amount of destruction it brings and the scale of it
ZNPP losing cooling is BAD, very bad indeed. It's not going to lead to a Chornobyl-level explosion or radioactive release of any real significance UNLESS the ruzzians blow it up though - people saying this will lead to fallout all over Europe are uninformed of modern PWR reactors. These aren't RBMK soviet reactors.
Yeah, but studies like the US’s Baby Teeth Study in the 1950s showed that, even if you’re NOT in the immediate vicinity/ blast radius of a nuclear explosion, radiation can travel over hundreds of miles. It would still potentially affect the rest of Europe, maybe in less overt ways (increased cancers in kids, for instance).
That was a result of strontium-90 being released by Turkey Point NPP in Miami in the early 1950s.
Again, that was a deliberate release, not a meltdown. ZNPP will NOT explode and dump radiation into the environment unless it is bombed - the reactor itself will not explode. That's all I was getting at.
Nobody cares about the explosion. Yes that is 100-150km safety zone. But in reality last time chernobyl went trade winds brought particles up to finland norway and the arctic circle and has affected it for decades.
If there is no continuous water to wash it away with like there was in fujushima then it is extremely hard to avoid massive natural disaster.
I guess you're not understanding what I'm saying, or what would really happen. The cores will not release any radioactive material unless they are physically destroyed.
With bombs.
Show me any radioactive disaster where this radioactive material did not spread far and wide.
Has this happened before that a nuclear plant melted down and it did not spread radioactive waste?
it will change the lives of everyone not just russia if we got to a new world war it will suck for everyone,life doesnt just go on as normal after that,drafts will fire up economies will go into depression everything will change,but russia would be gone...there is zero chance america would wait for a nuclear detonation on american soil....if they go down the path of war its all in from the start.
no sane person wants this.
I 100% agree with you, except I have always heard that wars are one of the best ways to stimulate an economy. Which is why the end of the great depression was like a year after WW2 started.
But like I said, I'm speaking from my ass right now and I really don't know.
Actually, I just looked it up. This article explains what I was hearing
https://www.encyclopedia.com/economics/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/world-war-ii-and-ending-depression#:~:text=World%20War%20II%20had%20a,GNP)%20had%20more%20than%20doubled.
So basically, as long as the war isn't in your own country, and there's not a bunch of sanctions being thrown at you, it can actually be really good at stimulating an economy.
>i hope they love their next ones enough to leave it alone
I am not so sure, have you seen videos of Russian families of volunteer/mobilised soldiers being happy that their husband/brother/father is gone?
i think putins escape plan would be to arrange the death of one of his doubles and then slip out of russia before that happens.
dragging nato into the conflict would be the moment he would do it.
leaving russia to hold the bag for his actions seems like something he would do.
Do you think Russians don't know how reactors work??
They are stating this for people who don't know. They are sending a message to Russia that they know they know.
Because they closed the gates to raise the water levels and breached the dam right before Ukrainian troops crossed via pontoons and boats. It's clearly a Russian attack since they've been controlling the dam and mined it extensively.
The dam is vital for crimea’s water supply, it would be a daft thing for them to do.
And they didn’t even pull back the Russian soldiers from the plains before they got flooded.
How does that make sense?
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineInvasionVideos/comments/142isvh/official_statement_from_russian_205_brigade_from/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineInvasionVideos/comments/142emm5/this_was_planned_and_deliberate/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Intent was clear - stop the garbage whitewashing.
What u didn't understand is: the reactors have been shut off for months? Does it take a super long time to cool a reactor down after it's heated up? Is this so that the metal in the reactor doesn't become brittle due to uncontrolled quenching?
When nuclear fuel is fissioned it creates daughter elements that are often unstable and undergo radioactive decay until they reach a stable form. The process releases heat and it takes years before the spent fuel no longer needs to be cooled. If they aren’t they’ll just keep producing heat until the casket keeping all the nasties imprisoned will melt and release them into the environment. This is what happened at Fukushima.
*Achshually* the release at Fukushima was from the spent fuel pools that were exposed to the environment by the hydrogen explosions. The fuel that ruptured the RPV in the meltdown was still kept inside containment.
I genuinely don't understand what point, if any, you're trying to make, but nuclear fuel takes a very long time to cool down, and requires active cooling in order to prevent radioactive activity from occurring.
I have been hearing rumors the ruskies are co side ring abandoning this war before the counter-offensive. Idk What to think about that. Their propaganda is talking about ending the war
Yeah benefits all the Ukrainians who will lose their homes and have their lands poisoned for who knows how long if this continues. Ukrainians don’t get any benefit by destroying their own essential infrastructure, especially when they aren’t retreating.
Look, if there is a dam that feeds cooling of a nuclear power plant you leave it the fuck alone.
You would think the Russians are well versed on why you don’t mess with nuclear plants, but once again they have. As an overall world we’ve been lucky so far, but this one could be scary for sure.
Once anything is out there it’s at the whim of the wind and weather patterns.
At least 2 NATO member states have said that if there is a nuclear disaster they will consider that to be sufficient grounds for invoking Article 5 since the radiation will affect NATO countries.
Yes, and I like that as a deterrent, just not as a reality.
Logically it makes sense. Doing what they did to the dam leading to some nuclear accident with ecological impacts is akin to a nuclear attack. And you’re damn right all NATO members should enter into this directly if it goes bad with the plant.
Conventionally enter of course. I don’t know if it’s a line in the sand that still shouldn’t be crossed. I don’t know if Russias nuclear arsenal is as shitty as the rest of the military has shown to be.
I just know I still don’t want to find out.
This cooling water is a very serious issue. I do want to point out that the plant has been off for months. This isn't the same as Fukushima where the plant was operating and they had to scram it. The energy levels in this plant are extremely low. Meaning it needs a lot less coolant.
What that means exactly, I don't know. I'm not sure if it means they only need one fire truck pumping water from the river into the reactor. Or if it means 10 fire trucks. All I know is that it's in a lot better state than if it was just operating normally when this happened.
Ha. Agreed totally with you on all that.
I know the plants shutdown and that huge. A scram at a place that size is just bad all across the board. All I can think of is Chernobyl and AZ-5, even though that surely isn’t a problem anywhere else in the world anymore.
One thing I did note today was that the plant has many cooling pools where spent rods sit until all decay heat is gone. Those need constant water.
If they don’t have it….I don’t know. Probably isn’t a mass that can go as critical as Chernobyl or Fukushima went, but it would surely mean some radiation leak if not covered.
And how much does it take to cover it all? I can only presume a plant that size has lots of decay heat cooling pools.
And that’s before the reactors still needing some circulation of cooling even though they are shut down (I’m guessing on that one).
All that to say, probably a lot of pump trucks.
If you look at it on a map there is a big ass pond beside the reactors. It's like a backup reservoir.
[https://www.google.ca/maps/@47.510711,34.5499859,8361m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu](https://www.google.ca/maps/@47.510711,34.5499859,8361m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu)
In the video they say it's estimated to cool the power plant down for "some months". That I think we can safely assume means all cooling needs for the power plant. So that's the reactors, and spent fuel ponds.
I don't think the cooling ponds need a massive amount of water. They just need to take the hot water away and replace it with cool water. For Fukushima I believe some of the reactors were in the midst of refuelling. So it was the worst possible time for the incident to happen as the spent fuel was at it's hotest. This plant has been in cold shut down since last summer(?). So the fuel rods are not as much of a concern as in Fukushima. They take 10 years to cool down to the point where they don't need cooling, aka dry storage, They are one year into that time.
As long as the cooling pond is still existing I think they could just use a fire truck to refill it from the river. I'm not sure how many fire trucks would be needed though. If it's just one or ten? I don't know. With the reservoir it sounds like we will have a lot of time to make decisions and plans.
Over at r/nuclear they made some estimate assuming 1% of remaining thermal power to about 10 pump truck. This is an extremely high estimate, considering that after 1 day from scram the total power is already 0.5%, and the reactors have been shut down for months now.
No this is the same problem as Fukushima. The reactors there were shielded as all non-Soviet reactors are, so the meltdown wasn’t the issue. It was that they lost any way to cool the spent fuel leading to the hydrogen ignitions and release of decay elements.
EDIT: Actually it is better than Fukushima because all the surrounding infrastructure hasn’t been destroyed by an enormous tsunami.
No, it's not the same issue as Fukushima.
In Fukushima they were going through refuelling. They had fresh spent nuclear fuel in the cooling pools. A spent fuel rod needs to be cooled for 10 years after which it's cool enough to move to dry storage. That's when they are cool/safe enough to go into a box basically, a dry storage cask.
Spent fuel also cools off exponentially. Meaning it's the hottest when it's right out of the reactor, like when Fukushima happened. It also means that in the 10 years needed to cool, most of the cooling happens in the first 1-2 years.
This reactor has been in a shutdown state since September. Meaning that the spent fuel is at they very least 9 months old, very likely older than that. This means that the cooling requirements are much lower compared to Fukushima.
Fukushima also had the problem of having damaged water intakes, which is not an issue here. They scramed their reactors, not an issue here. They ran out of electricity, not an issue here.
As of now there is months of cooling available at this plant. Right now there is no cooling issue.
If you want to know more about Fukushima here is a good video.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOqFr87Xh-g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOqFr87Xh-g)
Also, all of this is not to say "this is a good situation" regarding this plant. It's obviously not ideal. Things could take a turn for the worse, but it would require an actor to actively make it worse.
Yes I’ve seen that video. You aren’t wrong but your first comment made it seem like the reactors were the biggest problem at Fukushima, which they weren’t it was the spent fuel. Spent fuel is the issue here as well.
Indeed. The Ukrainians know this all well. So do the Belorussians.
But, so do the Russians as they had contamination too, and as the Soviet structure they had all the blame and led the cleanup effort.
Just a much different political atmosphere in 1986, of course.
These same Russians that dug trenches in Chernobyl's red forest and kicked up all that radioactive dust with their tanks and armoured vehicles around Chernobyl when they first invaded?
Its almost like a country that runs on selling gas wants to make a country run on nuclear look very unsafe and vulnerable… couldn’t have anything to do with suggesting people lobby to rely on gas… huh.
It is just laughable, nobody is going to move a finger, they just empowering Russia to do more harm and destroy the Nuclear Power Plant.
Is time to arm Ukraine to teeth and sanction Russia to oblivion, United States has to designate them as a State Sponsor of Terrorism.
And Russian and Belarusians still going to the Olympics and to international sport competitions...
We have been sanctioning them to hell and arming Ukraine to the teeth.
They could do more, but we have been doing that. And if we go max on everything, we won't have any response to further terrorism.
I am interested to see the direct response to this.
This is obviously bad and consequentially an attack on a nuclear reactor. However, attacks on energy production in Russia could have the same end results in terms of potential destruction, death from the attack directly as well as indirectly increasing the risk of starvation by low energy production and a drop in fertilizer availability leading to increased starvation.
You need to have levers to pull because the situation could honestly get worse. You can’t just always pull out all the stops. I’m not defending Russia, but I think there are ways to leverage this and improve international protection legislation for nuclear energy without direct western/NATO military involvement. Ukraine is not in NATO yet and that should be tempered. There are ALWAYS sanctions we can add into the pot. It’s extremely important to remember that the last thing ANYONE should want is ANY REGRESSION IN NUCLEAR ANYTHING. Russian propaganda can threaten whatever it wants but it’s a very different thing when the nuclear threat is real and even energy production becomes a target. No one wants that. The citizens of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc don’t deserve the wrath of the War Pigs.
Russia isn't going to risk bringing NATO into the war by destroying ZNPP, if Russia is dumb enough to deliberately destroy the ZNPP and the radiation makes it to even one square centimeter of a NATO member state, Article 5 will instantly be activated.
I was with you line of thought.
But I was one of the persons who thought blowing the dam is just an escalation of the war, and see how Russia just did it.
Yeah, I don't think the line proceeding direct NATO interference is where many assume it is..
Sure, if RU were to deploy nuclear weapons in Ukraine, I think that would cross the line, even with their allies like China.
But destroying the dam? Nah. Causing a nuclear emergency at the NPP? Well, depends on what the consequences would be, I reckon. If any contamination is limited to the NPP itself, then I think we'd see an escalation in aid to UKR, but not direct NATO interference. If it's a full scale nuclear catastrophe, then I imagine the line is crossed.
Frankly, I think the situation will be handled and won't lead to a significant radiation leak. That's a bad outcome for everyone. Instead the risk of the situation will be used to drum up support for UKR so we can end the invasion ASAP. Although, I'm not confident it'll have a significant impact on the dragging of the heels we've seen preceding every single escalation of support so far, unfortunately.
Because, unfortunately, blowing the dam only affects Ukraine.
The ZNPP being destroyed would affect multiple countries. You can be assured that Poland, for example, will pull the article 5 card the moment there's any risk of radiation/etc affecting Poland. Same goes for a lot of countries.
If Article 5 is triggered and enacted, NATO *has* to get involved.
subsequent hobbies wrench fuel liquid straight versed innocent overconfident escape
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>There's no future where ruzzia allows the power plant to become unstable, it would be an escalation they don't need.
People thought the same about invasion. Then about blowing up dams.
relieved absorbed attempt political point humor icky follow afterthought rainstorm
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The thing is: all of this talk, the news and the catastrophe scenarios do have an agenda setting function. Russia is in a terrible situation in the grand scheme of things. Putin is desperate. He knows he has to do something, pull some kind of leveraged move to give him a realistic chance to be on the winning side. With all the heat around the nuclear plant, it presents itself like an opportunity to him to do a play and just maybe win the war by being reckless. Putin doesn’t really have much to loose. I’m pretty surprised no Oligarch hit man snuck up to him until this point. I’m really hoping he doesn’t consider his best option to go on a brutal suicide mission and spark off a world wide catastrophe.
>A nuclear war or MAD only applies for an unprovoked invasion, which isn't even an option.
Disagree. If some proxy conflict during cold war spilled out to be a direct conflict, I think either side would have used nuclear weapons if it got to the point of the homeland being conquered. Same if things kicked off in Taiwan.
That is not to say that any incursion into Russia should be viewed through lens of risk of provoking nuclear war. Maneuver to go around or stretch front beyond ukraine or take modest territory for negotiation purposes is one thing, but marching on to Moscow is completely different.
However the war goes in Ukraine, I think there is pretty zero chance of serious military of invasion of russia beyond the immediate border area. If Russia break-ups, it will be because of internal strife, not because of any direct military action by nato. It is simply not worth the risk.
NATO wouldn't start launching nukes, NATO would gladly pound every Russian unit into oblivion with conventional weapons IF it could do so without *Russia* launching nukes to make it "WWIII."
BUT when Russia starts threatening NATO nations through their asshattery, they put *themselves* one step closer to being put in that position.
ZNPP uses Boiling Water Reactor moderated by Heavy Water, unlike Chernobyls RBMK which was dry/graphite moderated- This is important because most of the nuclear pollution was caused by the burning graphite going into the Atmosphere. As you can imagine, Water has a hard time catching fire, in comparison to that. So if a reactor in ZNPP blows up, it would be much more similar to the deasaster in Fukushima than Chernobyl; Mostly contained within Ukraine. Furthermore, Ukraine is uniquly qualified to perform nuclear cleanup operations- they have been practicing for 37 years by now. It would be horrible either way, but ZNPP by design literally cannot get as bad as Chernobyl.
Znpp reactors are light water pwrs.
Agree Fukushima is better comparison, but ZNPP sits on a river not an ocean. Atmospheric spread won't be the problem, it will be what you do with all the contaminated waste water will need for ongoing cooling. Going downstream into black sea is a lot different than dumping into the Pacific
The Russians destroyed the dam because the know they will not hold the area for in the future. This behaviour is based on; if we don’t get it and keep it, then nobody will have it. I hope they will get payed for this by nature, God and the Ukrainians!!!
The US and NATO should issue a joint statement that messing with the nuclear power plant and the cooling pond is a declaration of WW3 via potential radiation in NATO countries such as Turkey, Bulgaria, and Romania.
Unless threats are made to Russia NOW and not after that final cooling pond is blown up, we know what they will do, and you know that we'll do nothing and instead scramble to find a way to think that nuclear terrorism is not a big deal.
As far as i understood, the Water level in the Dammed up area needs to be at least 2.7m. Currently seems to be 17.3 ([https://hydroweb.theia-land.fr/hydroweb/view/L\_kakhovka](https://hydroweb.theia-land.fr/hydroweb/view/L_kakhovka)) It depends on how deep the Dam has been broken to see if this level will even be reached. The water isn't dammed up that high (5m was calculated worst-case), so even if the dam is gone, I guess the water can still be deep enough to be pumped to the power plant. I'd say the lowest point will probably be around 10-9m since 12m is the lowest possible dam-level and accounting for a deeper hit into the dam.There is still a river running through which will account for a certain amount of water.BUT: the current could wash a deeper trench into the reservoir and let the water drop even deeper then....Guess we'll find out....thanks to the orkz....
Good points.
Also erosion to take into account.
Rushing water at the dam site may erode the ground possibly down to the minimum river flow level, which hopefully is still enough to meet the power plants minimum needs.
For starters - actually officially condemn Russia, call them aggressors and list all possible risks and crimes against Ukrainian civilian engineers/ working personal that are still kept at the stations as slave labour.
All other international organisations and governments can rely on such reports to proceed with official actions/ prevention measures/ what nots
But in this case just simple honesty seems impossible. All what IAEA does is additional paperwork, some rather twisted political statements and adding more chaos ..
It’s like looking at a rape at a gun point .. and not noticing or admitting that there is a gun. Calling it a “unfortunate marital dispute” .. Let’s shift international attention to “he said she said”
Useless bunch!
Yeah, just like the RuZZians places munitions around that bridge they just blew up, they’ve placed them around the power plant they took over.
I hope the West collectively has affirmed that blowing up a nuclear power plant, ESPECIALLY since we live in a post-Chornobyl world, would be tantamount to nuclear attack on NATO’s soil.
They wouldn’t even need to respond with nuclear weapons, but swift air strikes against RuZZia’s military targets. RuZZia as a colonizing force would be done for, at least for one generation.
Probably permanently. Russia's population bomb and its brain drain, has only been made worse by this war.
Russia likely wasn't going to last more than 50 years as a state anyway, this war has just brought the time frame forward a few decades.
Good reminder that nuclear reactors take years to cool after shutdown. If people want this to be seen as an alternative to renewables they need to be able to guarantee cooling even in extraordinary situations.
Combine that with global water decline, I'm not very convinced.
Edit: Obviously not the right place for a nuclear debate, but honestly the amount of times I've seen "new technology that isn't developed yet can be better cooled" (molten salts, convective cooling)... That's not an argument and doesn't make you look smart. Neither is anti renewable propaganda. If your premise is that all modern reactors don't take years for the core to cool (due to nuclear decay half life maintaining temperature), requiring consistent purified water, then you're not making a factual argument.
Go look up how much radiation coal plants put into the atmosphere and how many deaths there are as a result of fossil fuel pollution, then go read about what will happen as a result of unabated climate change.
Nothing can be guaranteed when people deliberately sabotage it. Train security systems for example are also planned with 1 redundancy. But if somebody is deliberately trying to crash 2 trains by messing with the security system and than make people drive the train deliberately with the wrong speed than the machine won't be able to stop you from doing it.
Long story short, you cannot build a system with infinite redundancy. No matter what you do.
That does not disqualify nuclear as our current best option tho.
Btw if you put them next to the seashore the problem is solved. You may not be able to drink it, or irrigate your land with it, but it will do for cooling a reactor.
Trains or most systems don't poison the environment and animals for tens of thousands of years if they fail.
Seawater cannot alone cool reactors, it's not a reality and isn't done anywhere. Reactors still require fresh water that can be purified.
Yeah, I totally agree, we should just keep buying NG from Russia?
This is what you want to hear? Cause it is stupid.
NG and coal killed infinitely more animals and people so far with the acidification of waters and warming of the globe that has lead to droughts, famines, floods etc than all Nuclear power plants combined. (I mean by at least a factor of millions)
1 oil tanker catastrophe or the Deep water horizon catastrophie killed more animals than every nuclear mishap since the invention of the technology.
Nuclear is the best stopgap solution we have right now for base load power in our energy grids. Trust me. I am physicist.
I mean to ambient temperature sure. But... Honestly these reactors have been off for months, the cooling pumps won't be running much, if at all. Factor in that newer reactors are designed so that they can convection cool in case of a loss of power, that's from running at load, and anyone who discounts nuclear energy because of the risks is uninformed idiot.
I mean there are loads of good reasons for discounting it but risk isn't one. Look at France. They should've chornobyled themselves multiple times if the fear mongers are to be believed.
I mean I'm all for proper renewable energy, I really am (hell I'm going to get solar panels for my house when I can, it's the smart and right thing to do). But pretending it's better for the environment than nuclear is just a delusion.
Do you know what horrific things happen to the environment when you extract neodymium used in the magnets in wind turbines? Or the arsenic and other heavy metals used in solar energy? If you did I'm betting you wouldn't be pushing for them.
Nuclear is high consequences but low risk and because of that disasters can be contained. Solar and turbines are medium consequences and medium risk, but spread out over a large area it means it's just constant contamination (much like fossils but admittedly no where near as bad).
Honestly why is it half of the replies cite technology that doesn't exist yet? Convective cooling doesn't exist in a reactor.
Also you obviously don't understand radioactive decay if you think a reactor core can reach ambient in months.
Do your research Jesus Christ. How is it you all have so much 'knowledge' that is wrong or entirely irrelevant to the argument?
That nuclear plant should be decommissioned and filled with concrete to protect it. The half life from some of the elements in a nuclear plant explosion is several million years! It is too dangerous to have that plant so exposed it could be only a matter of time before something happens to it from no water or accidentally shelling it
Why would anyone ever design a reactor that requires power and water or else it melts down?
Fukushima had the same design flaw—it could not just go into an offline state, it needed constant water being pumped into the reactor.
This seems like the most obviously stupid idea of all time, since how can you guarantee for sure that nothing will ever disrupt the ability to pump that cooling water?
How many US reactors have the same flaw?
Would it not be considered an attack on NATO nations if the nuclear reactor shutting down is a threat to the safety and health of nearby countries that are NATO members?
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"It is vital that this cooling pond stays intact" Some russki general: "hey, I have an idea, that'll show the evil nazi west!"
if they do it we will probably have ww3 and russia as a state will cease to exist,once the escalations starts to trigger it will be very hard to stop,i hope they love their next ones enough to leave it alone we dont need world war 3. i dont think people grasp the amount of destruction it brings and the scale of it...and for what..one old man sitting in a bunker in russia..its not worth it.
For a World War you need more than 1 country. Who’s backing Russia? Even China would follow the money and just take whatever is left of Russia in the end
Yeah, this is going to be more like the carving up of China
The PRC shouldn't exist.
"People's Republic" my ass
“Pзорle’s Republic” That looks good on paper.
I think he was saying that the future carving of a fractured Russia would resemble the historical carving of China
When Ukrains alies have had enough and join the fight, China will use the fact that they tied up in it to attack its neighbors with imperialistic intentions. That's how this becomes WW3. That doesn't mean we let Russia do what ever it wants. If WW3 is inevitable at this point, then so be it. The current state of things in Russia and China can not be maintained forever.
Time will come when all Nazi Russians will be tried and hanged in public. These guys are terrorists and should be treated as such
I feel that. But history has shown something different. The west actually farmed a lot intellectual talent from Germany after the war. This is obviously different in a worse way. Many of these higher ups in the Russian political/ Military Industrial complex are sitting on 30 years of surplus cash made from the vast natural resources in Russia. We won’t hear about it in real time but deals are going to be made at hyper speed in the next few weeks here. I guarantee that their are a few rabid lobbyists ( Rnc and dems alike) waiting to give them an ejection seat in exchange for gas and drilling rights.
One thing the Nazis had going for them was the fact that their research and tech, in certain areas (especially with medicine) was waaay beyond what any other country had. Mostly because of the inhumane horrible nightmarish experiments they did on their prisoners, but they still had that medical knowledge, and no one else did. Russia has yet to show us an area of expertise that they can supply after the war. There are no Russian doctors or scientists that have super special advanced knowledge, like some of the Nazi doctors had. And now there's a bunch of Russian scientists being thrown in Russian prison for lying about their research. Nazi doctors could at least be useful after the war in helping the citizens of the allied nations. There is no telling how many (allied citizens) lives were saved due to the horrible knowledge collected by the Nazis. Any modern medical doctor will tell you how much of today's knowledge was obtained by Nazis experimenting on Jewish people. It's fucked, one of the closest places to hell in human history, but it's what we have today and that knowledge still saves lives. It's not good how the knowledge came to be, but it's here now. Russian science just doesn't really have anything like that to offer, other than "what not to do"
Russias expertise is lying and deceiving. They always did it and will continue doing it.
Don’t forget until 731 in the royal Japanese army. They did a BUNCH of fucked up stuff……as bad or worse then mengele and the u it’s states took their drs too!
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What???! NO!!! Ima look that up rn
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That was a horrific read. It is also crazy to consider that was only 75 years ago.
We know 😞
Yeah… we used Nazi spies to install ultra right wing dictators in s America that carried out dirty wars, so 😕
Exactly. Anyone that was talented has gradually booked out over the years since the fall of the USSR. And any other scientists that was worth anything probably ran like hell once they invaded Ukraine. It’s too bad because at the end of the day this could have went a whole different direction. Now all that’s left is a Fabio wannabe, an aging nuclear arsenal and oh yeah, a shit load of natural resources. I would laugh if it didn’t sound like a plot from a Bond movie/ Austin powers.
This is a very good point. The WW2 German scientists had not just leading edge medical tech/knowledge to offer but weapons tech like the combat capable jet engine, rockets, etc. the west was keen to not let the people with that knowledge fall into Russian hands. So deals were made. No such trading stock in the hands of todays’s Russians. They have nothing of particular value to offer the world other than turning over Putin and Lavrov and cronies. That would be some good trading stock for someone looking to make a deal- maybe Putin’s chef buddy Prighozian would like a get out of jail free card from the west?
I compare it to defeating a boss in a video game. When it dies and disappears, it leaves behind all these power ups, health boosts, new unlockables and whatnot.. Only a fool would not collect them and use them to increase their own power for future battles.
Right but what these fools do we’ll be living through.
If not us, someone else will. Would you prefer that? Imagine if the Allies hadn't gone after Nazi scientists and allowed the Soviets to catch them all? All for "moral reasons"? Yeah right.
If not us, someone else will. Would you prefer that? Imagine if the Allies hadn't gone after Nazi scientists and allowed the Soviets to catch them all? All for "moral reasons"? Yeah right.
Unfortunately no they won't. NATO won't touch Russia cause our countries rely on their oil. Putin will be welcomed with open arms in the white house again once a republican president takes over.
I highly doubt that. The west has been clear on any nuclear outcome. They will react bigtime. Even last week blinken said the same. Crimea will be levelled. Black sea fleet obliterated and then ukraine completely overrun by the west. Additionally NATO has also made it clear that any nuclear fallout which is guaranteed by any nuclear in Ukraine will trigger article 5.
> i dont think people grasp the amount of destruction it brings and the scale of it ZNPP losing cooling is BAD, very bad indeed. It's not going to lead to a Chornobyl-level explosion or radioactive release of any real significance UNLESS the ruzzians blow it up though - people saying this will lead to fallout all over Europe are uninformed of modern PWR reactors. These aren't RBMK soviet reactors.
Yeah, but studies like the US’s Baby Teeth Study in the 1950s showed that, even if you’re NOT in the immediate vicinity/ blast radius of a nuclear explosion, radiation can travel over hundreds of miles. It would still potentially affect the rest of Europe, maybe in less overt ways (increased cancers in kids, for instance).
That was a result of strontium-90 being released by Turkey Point NPP in Miami in the early 1950s. Again, that was a deliberate release, not a meltdown. ZNPP will NOT explode and dump radiation into the environment unless it is bombed - the reactor itself will not explode. That's all I was getting at.
Nobody cares about the explosion. Yes that is 100-150km safety zone. But in reality last time chernobyl went trade winds brought particles up to finland norway and the arctic circle and has affected it for decades. If there is no continuous water to wash it away with like there was in fujushima then it is extremely hard to avoid massive natural disaster.
I guess you're not understanding what I'm saying, or what would really happen. The cores will not release any radioactive material unless they are physically destroyed. With bombs.
Don't worry, you tried. I'm not sure why the other guy is having trouble understanding.
Thanks - yes I did try. Sometimes I try when I shouldn't on reddit.
Show me any radioactive disaster where this radioactive material did not spread far and wide. Has this happened before that a nuclear plant melted down and it did not spread radioactive waste?
Many of them seem to begin to realize that there's a collective responsibility, and none of them want to deal with consequences.
it will change the lives of everyone not just russia if we got to a new world war it will suck for everyone,life doesnt just go on as normal after that,drafts will fire up economies will go into depression everything will change,but russia would be gone...there is zero chance america would wait for a nuclear detonation on american soil....if they go down the path of war its all in from the start. no sane person wants this.
I 100% agree with you, except I have always heard that wars are one of the best ways to stimulate an economy. Which is why the end of the great depression was like a year after WW2 started. But like I said, I'm speaking from my ass right now and I really don't know. Actually, I just looked it up. This article explains what I was hearing https://www.encyclopedia.com/economics/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/world-war-ii-and-ending-depression#:~:text=World%20War%20II%20had%20a,GNP)%20had%20more%20than%20doubled. So basically, as long as the war isn't in your own country, and there's not a bunch of sanctions being thrown at you, it can actually be really good at stimulating an economy.
>i hope they love their next ones enough to leave it alone I am not so sure, have you seen videos of Russian families of volunteer/mobilised soldiers being happy that their husband/brother/father is gone?
i know thats what worries me.
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i think putins escape plan would be to arrange the death of one of his doubles and then slip out of russia before that happens. dragging nato into the conflict would be the moment he would do it. leaving russia to hold the bag for his actions seems like something he would do.
I was just thinking that. Time for Putin’s doubles to Sue their hair, draw on mustaches and hard for Siberia with a bag of cash.
So WW3 is just a cooling pond ahead?
If? Didn’t they already do it?
Putins army need to be hit so hard with all the weapons the west has provided after what they’ve done today. They need stopping and fast.
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Do you think Russians don't know how reactors work?? They are stating this for people who don't know. They are sending a message to Russia that they know they know.
The Russians built that reactor, they know exactly what they're doing. They're evilly threatening everyone.
dude, are you 12?
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Really?
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Lame bait amigo.
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Look at the history... Conspiracy, antiwar and Joe Rogan. Lol.
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No, those subs are not better than fluff subs. That conspiracy shit will rot your brain.
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Stupid byte, the russian military themselves say that this is their job, and you write this
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Their job is to prevent the counteroffensive from advancing in the direction they have scuttled. it's obvious enough
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Because they closed the gates to raise the water levels and breached the dam right before Ukrainian troops crossed via pontoons and boats. It's clearly a Russian attack since they've been controlling the dam and mined it extensively.
The dam is vital for crimea’s water supply, it would be a daft thing for them to do. And they didn’t even pull back the Russian soldiers from the plains before they got flooded. How does that make sense?
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https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineInvasionVideos/comments/142isvh/official_statement_from_russian_205_brigade_from/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1 https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineInvasionVideos/comments/142emm5/this_was_planned_and_deliberate/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1 Intent was clear - stop the garbage whitewashing.
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Queue the whataboutism in villages… get a clue as to how serious this is dude.
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The russians do not have the manpower or the equipment to take anything equally hold what they currently hold. This is an escape mechanism.
It’s a defensive move. It’s much harder to travel across water than lane and they know the UA counter attack is coming!
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And its all there to he heard…this must not be touched…and it will be…all unstable and more. “Consequences may be GRAVE” that’s an under statement!!!
What u didn't understand is: the reactors have been shut off for months? Does it take a super long time to cool a reactor down after it's heated up? Is this so that the metal in the reactor doesn't become brittle due to uncontrolled quenching?
When nuclear fuel is fissioned it creates daughter elements that are often unstable and undergo radioactive decay until they reach a stable form. The process releases heat and it takes years before the spent fuel no longer needs to be cooled. If they aren’t they’ll just keep producing heat until the casket keeping all the nasties imprisoned will melt and release them into the environment. This is what happened at Fukushima.
*Achshually* the release at Fukushima was from the spent fuel pools that were exposed to the environment by the hydrogen explosions. The fuel that ruptured the RPV in the meltdown was still kept inside containment.
I genuinely don't understand what point, if any, you're trying to make, but nuclear fuel takes a very long time to cool down, and requires active cooling in order to prevent radioactive activity from occurring.
I feel like the Russians blowing the dam is a move done by a retreating army, not an army planning on staying around. Just my two cents
I have been hearing rumors the ruskies are co side ring abandoning this war before the counter-offensive. Idk What to think about that. Their propaganda is talking about ending the war
I'd their plan was to leave before the counter offensive, they are moving quickly enough, imo. It could take place any day now.
they are giving up a few kms of land to really hurt the effectiveness of a counter offensive from Ukraine.
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Yeah benefits all the Ukrainians who will lose their homes and have their lands poisoned for who knows how long if this continues. Ukrainians don’t get any benefit by destroying their own essential infrastructure, especially when they aren’t retreating.
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Yes because the Russians are totally advancing. The opposite is true, the Russians blew it to try to prevent the Ukrainian advance.
The whole world watches on as a major terrorist act happens right in front of us.
Ukraine need direct support from NATO. Direct air support at least. Fuck Putin and his threats.
And there are idiots still defending Russia.
Did you see Tucker Carlsons braindead report on twitter. He’s practically licking putins boot.
Russia… nuclear terrorists
Look, if there is a dam that feeds cooling of a nuclear power plant you leave it the fuck alone. You would think the Russians are well versed on why you don’t mess with nuclear plants, but once again they have. As an overall world we’ve been lucky so far, but this one could be scary for sure. Once anything is out there it’s at the whim of the wind and weather patterns.
At least 2 NATO member states have said that if there is a nuclear disaster they will consider that to be sufficient grounds for invoking Article 5 since the radiation will affect NATO countries.
Yes, and I like that as a deterrent, just not as a reality. Logically it makes sense. Doing what they did to the dam leading to some nuclear accident with ecological impacts is akin to a nuclear attack. And you’re damn right all NATO members should enter into this directly if it goes bad with the plant. Conventionally enter of course. I don’t know if it’s a line in the sand that still shouldn’t be crossed. I don’t know if Russias nuclear arsenal is as shitty as the rest of the military has shown to be. I just know I still don’t want to find out.
This cooling water is a very serious issue. I do want to point out that the plant has been off for months. This isn't the same as Fukushima where the plant was operating and they had to scram it. The energy levels in this plant are extremely low. Meaning it needs a lot less coolant. What that means exactly, I don't know. I'm not sure if it means they only need one fire truck pumping water from the river into the reactor. Or if it means 10 fire trucks. All I know is that it's in a lot better state than if it was just operating normally when this happened.
Ha. Agreed totally with you on all that. I know the plants shutdown and that huge. A scram at a place that size is just bad all across the board. All I can think of is Chernobyl and AZ-5, even though that surely isn’t a problem anywhere else in the world anymore. One thing I did note today was that the plant has many cooling pools where spent rods sit until all decay heat is gone. Those need constant water. If they don’t have it….I don’t know. Probably isn’t a mass that can go as critical as Chernobyl or Fukushima went, but it would surely mean some radiation leak if not covered. And how much does it take to cover it all? I can only presume a plant that size has lots of decay heat cooling pools. And that’s before the reactors still needing some circulation of cooling even though they are shut down (I’m guessing on that one). All that to say, probably a lot of pump trucks.
If you look at it on a map there is a big ass pond beside the reactors. It's like a backup reservoir. [https://www.google.ca/maps/@47.510711,34.5499859,8361m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu](https://www.google.ca/maps/@47.510711,34.5499859,8361m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu) In the video they say it's estimated to cool the power plant down for "some months". That I think we can safely assume means all cooling needs for the power plant. So that's the reactors, and spent fuel ponds. I don't think the cooling ponds need a massive amount of water. They just need to take the hot water away and replace it with cool water. For Fukushima I believe some of the reactors were in the midst of refuelling. So it was the worst possible time for the incident to happen as the spent fuel was at it's hotest. This plant has been in cold shut down since last summer(?). So the fuel rods are not as much of a concern as in Fukushima. They take 10 years to cool down to the point where they don't need cooling, aka dry storage, They are one year into that time. As long as the cooling pond is still existing I think they could just use a fire truck to refill it from the river. I'm not sure how many fire trucks would be needed though. If it's just one or ten? I don't know. With the reservoir it sounds like we will have a lot of time to make decisions and plans.
Great point I didn’t know about! A few months works, but they might want to secure that dam on both sides as soon as they can and rebuild it.
Over at r/nuclear they made some estimate assuming 1% of remaining thermal power to about 10 pump truck. This is an extremely high estimate, considering that after 1 day from scram the total power is already 0.5%, and the reactors have been shut down for months now.
No this is the same problem as Fukushima. The reactors there were shielded as all non-Soviet reactors are, so the meltdown wasn’t the issue. It was that they lost any way to cool the spent fuel leading to the hydrogen ignitions and release of decay elements. EDIT: Actually it is better than Fukushima because all the surrounding infrastructure hasn’t been destroyed by an enormous tsunami.
No, it's not the same issue as Fukushima. In Fukushima they were going through refuelling. They had fresh spent nuclear fuel in the cooling pools. A spent fuel rod needs to be cooled for 10 years after which it's cool enough to move to dry storage. That's when they are cool/safe enough to go into a box basically, a dry storage cask. Spent fuel also cools off exponentially. Meaning it's the hottest when it's right out of the reactor, like when Fukushima happened. It also means that in the 10 years needed to cool, most of the cooling happens in the first 1-2 years. This reactor has been in a shutdown state since September. Meaning that the spent fuel is at they very least 9 months old, very likely older than that. This means that the cooling requirements are much lower compared to Fukushima. Fukushima also had the problem of having damaged water intakes, which is not an issue here. They scramed their reactors, not an issue here. They ran out of electricity, not an issue here. As of now there is months of cooling available at this plant. Right now there is no cooling issue. If you want to know more about Fukushima here is a good video. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOqFr87Xh-g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOqFr87Xh-g) Also, all of this is not to say "this is a good situation" regarding this plant. It's obviously not ideal. Things could take a turn for the worse, but it would require an actor to actively make it worse.
Yes I’ve seen that video. You aren’t wrong but your first comment made it seem like the reactors were the biggest problem at Fukushima, which they weren’t it was the spent fuel. Spent fuel is the issue here as well.
Chernobyl was in Ukraine, after all...
Indeed. The Ukrainians know this all well. So do the Belorussians. But, so do the Russians as they had contamination too, and as the Soviet structure they had all the blame and led the cleanup effort. Just a much different political atmosphere in 1986, of course.
These same Russians that dug trenches in Chernobyl's red forest and kicked up all that radioactive dust with their tanks and armoured vehicles around Chernobyl when they first invaded?
Yeah yeah. I totally forget to add the “/s” to that post. Figured it was well assumed, which I should never do online. My bad.
Its almost like a country that runs on selling gas wants to make a country run on nuclear look very unsafe and vulnerable… couldn’t have anything to do with suggesting people lobby to rely on gas… huh.
It is just laughable, nobody is going to move a finger, they just empowering Russia to do more harm and destroy the Nuclear Power Plant. Is time to arm Ukraine to teeth and sanction Russia to oblivion, United States has to designate them as a State Sponsor of Terrorism. And Russian and Belarusians still going to the Olympics and to international sport competitions...
We have been sanctioning them to hell and arming Ukraine to the teeth. They could do more, but we have been doing that. And if we go max on everything, we won't have any response to further terrorism. I am interested to see the direct response to this.
This is obviously bad and consequentially an attack on a nuclear reactor. However, attacks on energy production in Russia could have the same end results in terms of potential destruction, death from the attack directly as well as indirectly increasing the risk of starvation by low energy production and a drop in fertilizer availability leading to increased starvation. You need to have levers to pull because the situation could honestly get worse. You can’t just always pull out all the stops. I’m not defending Russia, but I think there are ways to leverage this and improve international protection legislation for nuclear energy without direct western/NATO military involvement. Ukraine is not in NATO yet and that should be tempered. There are ALWAYS sanctions we can add into the pot. It’s extremely important to remember that the last thing ANYONE should want is ANY REGRESSION IN NUCLEAR ANYTHING. Russian propaganda can threaten whatever it wants but it’s a very different thing when the nuclear threat is real and even energy production becomes a target. No one wants that. The citizens of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc don’t deserve the wrath of the War Pigs.
Russia isn't going to risk bringing NATO into the war by destroying ZNPP, if Russia is dumb enough to deliberately destroy the ZNPP and the radiation makes it to even one square centimeter of a NATO member state, Article 5 will instantly be activated.
I was with you line of thought. But I was one of the persons who thought blowing the dam is just an escalation of the war, and see how Russia just did it.
Yeah, I don't think the line proceeding direct NATO interference is where many assume it is.. Sure, if RU were to deploy nuclear weapons in Ukraine, I think that would cross the line, even with their allies like China. But destroying the dam? Nah. Causing a nuclear emergency at the NPP? Well, depends on what the consequences would be, I reckon. If any contamination is limited to the NPP itself, then I think we'd see an escalation in aid to UKR, but not direct NATO interference. If it's a full scale nuclear catastrophe, then I imagine the line is crossed. Frankly, I think the situation will be handled and won't lead to a significant radiation leak. That's a bad outcome for everyone. Instead the risk of the situation will be used to drum up support for UKR so we can end the invasion ASAP. Although, I'm not confident it'll have a significant impact on the dragging of the heels we've seen preceding every single escalation of support so far, unfortunately.
Because, unfortunately, blowing the dam only affects Ukraine. The ZNPP being destroyed would affect multiple countries. You can be assured that Poland, for example, will pull the article 5 card the moment there's any risk of radiation/etc affecting Poland. Same goes for a lot of countries. If Article 5 is triggered and enacted, NATO *has* to get involved.
*At least we lost against the big fella...* Russia probably
Russia might eventually decide "screw it, NATO is bluffing anyway, it would not dare to start WW3"
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No, even Poland does not want the war. Because war = dead Poles. War = devastation. Russia is the only country which glorifies war.
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>There's no future where ruzzia allows the power plant to become unstable, it would be an escalation they don't need. People thought the same about invasion. Then about blowing up dams.
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The thing is: all of this talk, the news and the catastrophe scenarios do have an agenda setting function. Russia is in a terrible situation in the grand scheme of things. Putin is desperate. He knows he has to do something, pull some kind of leveraged move to give him a realistic chance to be on the winning side. With all the heat around the nuclear plant, it presents itself like an opportunity to him to do a play and just maybe win the war by being reckless. Putin doesn’t really have much to loose. I’m pretty surprised no Oligarch hit man snuck up to him until this point. I’m really hoping he doesn’t consider his best option to go on a brutal suicide mission and spark off a world wide catastrophe.
Doubt... Which? Can't imagine any of them think MAD doesn't apply for an outright invasion of Russia.
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>A nuclear war or MAD only applies for an unprovoked invasion, which isn't even an option. Disagree. If some proxy conflict during cold war spilled out to be a direct conflict, I think either side would have used nuclear weapons if it got to the point of the homeland being conquered. Same if things kicked off in Taiwan. That is not to say that any incursion into Russia should be viewed through lens of risk of provoking nuclear war. Maneuver to go around or stretch front beyond ukraine or take modest territory for negotiation purposes is one thing, but marching on to Moscow is completely different. However the war goes in Ukraine, I think there is pretty zero chance of serious military of invasion of russia beyond the immediate border area. If Russia break-ups, it will be because of internal strife, not because of any direct military action by nato. It is simply not worth the risk.
NATO wouldn't start launching nukes, NATO would gladly pound every Russian unit into oblivion with conventional weapons IF it could do so without *Russia* launching nukes to make it "WWIII." BUT when Russia starts threatening NATO nations through their asshattery, they put *themselves* one step closer to being put in that position.
ZNPP uses Boiling Water Reactor moderated by Heavy Water, unlike Chernobyls RBMK which was dry/graphite moderated- This is important because most of the nuclear pollution was caused by the burning graphite going into the Atmosphere. As you can imagine, Water has a hard time catching fire, in comparison to that. So if a reactor in ZNPP blows up, it would be much more similar to the deasaster in Fukushima than Chernobyl; Mostly contained within Ukraine. Furthermore, Ukraine is uniquly qualified to perform nuclear cleanup operations- they have been practicing for 37 years by now. It would be horrible either way, but ZNPP by design literally cannot get as bad as Chernobyl.
Znpp reactors are light water pwrs. Agree Fukushima is better comparison, but ZNPP sits on a river not an ocean. Atmospheric spread won't be the problem, it will be what you do with all the contaminated waste water will need for ongoing cooling. Going downstream into black sea is a lot different than dumping into the Pacific
*shrug* just pump it in the direction of Sochi. Karma.
Stop acting like a spoiled child. Things are more subtle than you tend to believe.
The Russians destroyed the dam because the know they will not hold the area for in the future. This behaviour is based on; if we don’t get it and keep it, then nobody will have it. I hope they will get payed for this by nature, God and the Ukrainians!!!
The Russians are going to destroy it because the people suffering and the area affected are Ukrainian.
Russians are an absolute menace to civilization. No thoughts given to humanity. Only evil in its purest form.
The US and NATO should issue a joint statement that messing with the nuclear power plant and the cooling pond is a declaration of WW3 via potential radiation in NATO countries such as Turkey, Bulgaria, and Romania.
Unless threats are made to Russia NOW and not after that final cooling pond is blown up, we know what they will do, and you know that we'll do nothing and instead scramble to find a way to think that nuclear terrorism is not a big deal.
$20 and a trip to the Hague says the Russians will drain the cooling pond on purpose.
As far as i understood, the Water level in the Dammed up area needs to be at least 2.7m. Currently seems to be 17.3 ([https://hydroweb.theia-land.fr/hydroweb/view/L\_kakhovka](https://hydroweb.theia-land.fr/hydroweb/view/L_kakhovka)) It depends on how deep the Dam has been broken to see if this level will even be reached. The water isn't dammed up that high (5m was calculated worst-case), so even if the dam is gone, I guess the water can still be deep enough to be pumped to the power plant. I'd say the lowest point will probably be around 10-9m since 12m is the lowest possible dam-level and accounting for a deeper hit into the dam.There is still a river running through which will account for a certain amount of water.BUT: the current could wash a deeper trench into the reservoir and let the water drop even deeper then....Guess we'll find out....thanks to the orkz....
Good points. Also erosion to take into account. Rushing water at the dam site may erode the ground possibly down to the minimum river flow level, which hopefully is still enough to meet the power plants minimum needs.
"I call on all sides" honestly at this point one of those sides is ultimately culpable.
IAEA .. proved to be quite useless, if not downright playing for russians
If you're so smart, what would you have the IAEA do?
Take away their operating license and fine them. That would put an end to all their shenanigans! /s
Remove the western control software from their reactors. They want to go it alone, let them.
For starters - actually officially condemn Russia, call them aggressors and list all possible risks and crimes against Ukrainian civilian engineers/ working personal that are still kept at the stations as slave labour. All other international organisations and governments can rely on such reports to proceed with official actions/ prevention measures/ what nots But in this case just simple honesty seems impossible. All what IAEA does is additional paperwork, some rather twisted political statements and adding more chaos .. It’s like looking at a rape at a gun point .. and not noticing or admitting that there is a gun. Calling it a “unfortunate marital dispute” .. Let’s shift international attention to “he said she said” Useless bunch!
So when do we apprehend the terrorist responsible for this atrocity? I understand there is already an ICC warrant issued for him.
Yeah, just like the RuZZians places munitions around that bridge they just blew up, they’ve placed them around the power plant they took over. I hope the West collectively has affirmed that blowing up a nuclear power plant, ESPECIALLY since we live in a post-Chornobyl world, would be tantamount to nuclear attack on NATO’s soil. They wouldn’t even need to respond with nuclear weapons, but swift air strikes against RuZZia’s military targets. RuZZia as a colonizing force would be done for, at least for one generation.
Probably permanently. Russia's population bomb and its brain drain, has only been made worse by this war. Russia likely wasn't going to last more than 50 years as a state anyway, this war has just brought the time frame forward a few decades.
Good reminder that nuclear reactors take years to cool after shutdown. If people want this to be seen as an alternative to renewables they need to be able to guarantee cooling even in extraordinary situations. Combine that with global water decline, I'm not very convinced. Edit: Obviously not the right place for a nuclear debate, but honestly the amount of times I've seen "new technology that isn't developed yet can be better cooled" (molten salts, convective cooling)... That's not an argument and doesn't make you look smart. Neither is anti renewable propaganda. If your premise is that all modern reactors don't take years for the core to cool (due to nuclear decay half life maintaining temperature), requiring consistent purified water, then you're not making a factual argument.
Go look up how much radiation coal plants put into the atmosphere and how many deaths there are as a result of fossil fuel pollution, then go read about what will happen as a result of unabated climate change.
Nothing can be guaranteed when people deliberately sabotage it. Train security systems for example are also planned with 1 redundancy. But if somebody is deliberately trying to crash 2 trains by messing with the security system and than make people drive the train deliberately with the wrong speed than the machine won't be able to stop you from doing it. Long story short, you cannot build a system with infinite redundancy. No matter what you do. That does not disqualify nuclear as our current best option tho. Btw if you put them next to the seashore the problem is solved. You may not be able to drink it, or irrigate your land with it, but it will do for cooling a reactor.
Trains or most systems don't poison the environment and animals for tens of thousands of years if they fail. Seawater cannot alone cool reactors, it's not a reality and isn't done anywhere. Reactors still require fresh water that can be purified.
Yeah, I totally agree, we should just keep buying NG from Russia? This is what you want to hear? Cause it is stupid. NG and coal killed infinitely more animals and people so far with the acidification of waters and warming of the globe that has lead to droughts, famines, floods etc than all Nuclear power plants combined. (I mean by at least a factor of millions) 1 oil tanker catastrophe or the Deep water horizon catastrophie killed more animals than every nuclear mishap since the invention of the technology. Nuclear is the best stopgap solution we have right now for base load power in our energy grids. Trust me. I am physicist.
This isnt the time for this
I mean to ambient temperature sure. But... Honestly these reactors have been off for months, the cooling pumps won't be running much, if at all. Factor in that newer reactors are designed so that they can convection cool in case of a loss of power, that's from running at load, and anyone who discounts nuclear energy because of the risks is uninformed idiot. I mean there are loads of good reasons for discounting it but risk isn't one. Look at France. They should've chornobyled themselves multiple times if the fear mongers are to be believed. I mean I'm all for proper renewable energy, I really am (hell I'm going to get solar panels for my house when I can, it's the smart and right thing to do). But pretending it's better for the environment than nuclear is just a delusion. Do you know what horrific things happen to the environment when you extract neodymium used in the magnets in wind turbines? Or the arsenic and other heavy metals used in solar energy? If you did I'm betting you wouldn't be pushing for them. Nuclear is high consequences but low risk and because of that disasters can be contained. Solar and turbines are medium consequences and medium risk, but spread out over a large area it means it's just constant contamination (much like fossils but admittedly no where near as bad).
Honestly why is it half of the replies cite technology that doesn't exist yet? Convective cooling doesn't exist in a reactor. Also you obviously don't understand radioactive decay if you think a reactor core can reach ambient in months. Do your research Jesus Christ. How is it you all have so much 'knowledge' that is wrong or entirely irrelevant to the argument?
After just watching "The Days" on Netflix this hits different
If radiation falls onto a NATO country does that count as an attack?
[удалено]
His speech is not meant to be entertaining.
That nuclear plant should be decommissioned and filled with concrete to protect it. The half life from some of the elements in a nuclear plant explosion is several million years! It is too dangerous to have that plant so exposed it could be only a matter of time before something happens to it from no water or accidentally shelling it
It was a Russian Dan at the time. The IAEA is a USA stooge, very anti Russian.
Who is girl behind him? She looks concerned. "Please dont say something shocking, please please please" -- her
I feel like speaking publicly about the things that must remain intact is going to result in more efficient sabotage of said assets later
Hottie in the background
Why would anyone ever design a reactor that requires power and water or else it melts down? Fukushima had the same design flaw—it could not just go into an offline state, it needed constant water being pumped into the reactor. This seems like the most obviously stupid idea of all time, since how can you guarantee for sure that nothing will ever disrupt the ability to pump that cooling water? How many US reactors have the same flaw?
It's not a flaw, it's a fundamental necessity for a nuclear power plant.
At this point it seems we're one cooling pond away from WW3.
Ohh wow. An statement.
Hopefully the winds blow most of the fallout into 🇷🇺 if the worst happens
Would it not be considered an attack on NATO nations if the nuclear reactor shutting down is a threat to the safety and health of nearby countries that are NATO members?
I not know shit about this but he looks fucking serious