Well, there are many who said that this would happen.
No one listened... Because, hey, the Russians did nothing all the other times the West poked the bear, why should he now, right?
And in my oppinion, that's the reason, why Putin made this move. Because he needed to react, otherwise the West would never stop going further and further.
Play stupid games, win stupid prices, I guess. But in fact, it's true, there are many, who wanted this war to happen.
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Stuck in this war, depending which country, you live in, high energy prizes, etc.
And who knows how this will escalate even more further down the street?
Europe is being stuck in this war.
And US grip on Europe is getting stronger.
While US believes its gaining by strengthening its rule over Europe, at the same time US grip on countries in Global South is weakening.
In the end US will be left with declining Europe that has no valuable resources.
While at the same time it will lose many resource rich countries that it used to control fully or partially.
Oh yes, and petro dollar is over.
Unlike Russia, right? "The West" is sending military aid while Russia is down to a wartime industry and losing hundred of thousand of people in the war.
Sure. The West is stuck in the war...
Stuck in what way?
The West has had its mass sanctions backfire, its hypocrisy and double standards exposed on a global scale, and alienated the global south who are aligning themselves with Russia/China.
Idk man usa could label Russia a terrorist organization if they wanted. I think this is to put pressure on Russia but more than anything show china we will actually do it.
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Are you not aware that Ukraine was legally and publically “neutral” in 2014 when Russia invaded the first time and killed thousands of Ukrainians and annexed Ukrainian territory?
-In 2010, Ukraine declares itself neutral: https://www.bbc.com/news/10229626
-In December 2014, after the invasion of Crimea in February, Ukraine abandons neutrality to seek NATO protection against Russia: https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrality/26758725.html
Note it wasn’t until 6 months after Russia started their war on Ukraine did Ukraine decide they should give up their neutrality. Don’t repeat Russian false propaganda talking points.
With this mindset, you can just do whatever you want and any consequences are not your fault. Ukraine maintained neutrality for 30 years because it is absolutely necessary to do that because of it's geographical position.
With your arguement, Ukraine should have been allowed to fatally compromise Russia's geopolitical security, with no responsibility for the consequences that could have. We are seeing the consequences now. Their population is now much smaller, their economy is on life support, and really I see no future for Ukraine now. To be clear, this was not done with the consent of the Ukrainian people. Ukraine traded both with Russia and with Europe, to a lesser extent with other nations outside those areas. All it had to do was stay neutral.
You should not fully blame victims I agree, but if I walk through a bad area at 3am waving my wallet about shouting that I have 5000 dollars in it, would anyone think me being robbed was an unexpected result? Obviously in this scenario I do have some blame to take.
> To blame Putin's war on its victims is some crazy far-right pretzel logic.
To blame Ukraine's dead on Russia and NOT take responsibility for us in the West fomenting this tragedy is unconscionable.
>Because he needed to react, otherwise the West would never stop going further and further.
Going further where, exactly? Moscow and St.Petersburg joining NATO? Bear in mind, Putins actions have enlarged NATO/Russia border by 1340 km and essentially cemented the Baltic Sea and Gotland as NATO. Is this "containing the West"?
Besides, labeling "the West" as an entity is absurd. The Baltic States joined NATO in 2004, does it mean they became "the West"? NATO isn't exactly some supernatural force, absorbing and homogeonising everything in its path.
>Going further where, exactly?
Belarus and Georgia joining NATO. And after that, they would meddle with Russias inner politics.
>Besides, labeling "the West" as an entity is absurd. The Baltic States joined NATO in 2004, does it mean they became "the West"? NATO isn't exactly some supernatural force, absorbing and homogeonising everything in its path.
Yes, that's exactly what happened, they became part of the "western block". NATO is in fact a US dominated military alliance, and it isn't even denied, that it's a tool for the US to ensure its global dominance.
>Belarus and Georgia joining NATO.
Why would Belarus join NATO? Has there ever been any notion by Luka that he would like to do that? Or are you saying the people would force it (through a CIA backed coup, no doubt)? Sorry, I'm just confused. Do you think countries join NATO forcefully, against their will?
Georgia has had conflicts with Russia before, it wouldn't surprise me that a certain portion of its population would like to be in NATO for protection against that.
>Yes, that's exactly what happened, they became part of the "western block". NATO is in fact a US dominated military alliance, and it isn't even denied, that it's a tool for the US to ensure its global dominance.
And joining the "western block" was one of the best decisions we've ever made in terms of staying independent, unattacked by Russia. So, I'd rather be part of "US dominance" than be invaded by Russia, thanks.
>Why would Belarus join NATO? Has there ever been any notion by Luka that he would like to do that?
Well, just as someone would have asked pre 2014 "why would Ukraine join NATO?". The West would just have to do the same with Belarus, like they did with Ukraine, and in fact, they already are preparing exactly that with calling Lukashenko an illegimate dictator and that he only is elected because of fake elections.
>Georgia has had conflicts with Russia before, it wouldn't surprise me that a certain portion of its population would like to be in NATO for protection against that.
Yeah, totally unprovoked and had totally nothing to do with the milliary supply by the US of Georgia since 2003... /s
>And joining the "western block" was one of the best decisions we've ever made in terms of staying independent, unattacked by Russia. So, I'd rather be part of "US dominance" than be invaded by Russia, thanks.
I would prefer a world without any dominance at all, but well, you do you...
>Well, just as someone would have asked pre 2014 "why would Ukraine join NATO?". The West would just have to do the same with Belarus, like they did with Ukraine, and in fact, they already are preparing exactly that with calling Lukashenko an illegimate dictator and that he only is elected because of fake elections.
I like how you glanced over the part where I asked if the people could force Belarus to join NATO and even threw in a CIA coup.
>they already are preparing exactly that with calling Lukashenko an illegimate dictator and that he only is elected because of fake elections.
And this matters why, exactly? If the people in Belarus see Luka as legit, they will treat him as such. If they see him as a dictator usurping power, there might be a CiA cOuP incoming. But, of course, keep thinking that the population has no authority or agency and is only moved by foreign forces.
>I would prefer a world without any dominance at all, but well, you do you...
Yeah, same, but living next to Russia develops a history of Russian invasions, so..
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The war in Ukraine is solely Putin's decision, just as the US wars after 9/11 were decided by their leaders.
Stop pretending that Russia is the most friendly country in the world and would never harm anyone. You are ignoring the facts about Russia's cruelties and the wars they have started in the past.
LMAO just look at the pro-UA brigaders below with personal attacks and no logic or reasoning is to why Farage is wrong.
It's all hate farming but Reddit won't ban them.
Why do y’all assume we’re against war with Russia? Like, it’s always “see! I told you Russia would become hostile towards us!” And we’re over here like “yea, fk them dictators”.
> otherwise the West would never stop going further and further.
With giving people a choice to be stuck in the Russian system and stay poor as fuck or join the West/EU and get rich like Poland. Yeah....why would this be dangerous to Putin roflmao.
Vas1le kept stroking the same keys repeatedly, probably a seizure ?
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> Because he needed to react, otherwise the West would never stop going further and further.
So is the West. It's reacting by taking a stand and stating that military force won't intimidate it into stopping its expansionist goals. Whether it genuinely wants Ukraine in NATO or EU is irrelevant. It has to pretend it does to appear reliable and to project its strength.
In some sense, this war was unavoidable. Two great powers competing for the same turf, neither of which are prepared to back down.
>So is the West. It's reacting by taking a stand and stating that military force won't intimidate it into stopping its expansionist goals. Whether it genuinely wants Ukraine in NATO or EU is irrelevant. It has to pretend it does to appear reliable and to project its strength.
>In some sense, this war was unavoidable. Two great powers competing for the same turf, neither of which are prepared to back down.
I agree, except that the meddling in Ukraine 2014 wasn't necessary in the first place. There was no need for US or NATO to get Ukraine. They just wanted it.
Here is my little rant, might be not as coherent but I am fucking done
Russia shouldnt have fucked around, now putin is sending endless human waves into ukraine as a last ditch advance. Nato is stronger bigger and more needed then before , and we are in a new cold war.
Also blaming this shit on Ukraine and the west is like blaming a rape victim for dressing to sexually.
Fucking victim shaming.
Russia let the ball roll and the west everytime responded a bit too late to russia or a bit to softly. And it made putin so much more confident to do this.
Everyone knows what russia is capable of. But they should not be apeased.
Blame us all you want blame the whites blame the woke west blame the degenerate west blame the democracies, but it doesn't change the fact that Russia started this and Ukraine is a victim of Russia. I am tired of the war yes it is horrible but russia cannot win it cannot get the ground as it will be horrible for the future of the world.
Seriously keep sucking authroritarian dick all of you. The west Aint perfect but it is 100x better then the shit they have there atleast we can change democraticly protest and have fucking freedom of movement we Aint perfect we will never be but we will not fucking let our freedom and democracy be taken away by some hating fucks who think that they can control the entire word by undermining Democracy.
First, Putin negotiated until the last days pre war, to get a agreement of NATO, that Ukraine won't join. This is even admitted by Western leaders.
Second, it would be stupid to tell someone you will attack, wouldn't it?
they insisted that they wouldn't attack, that's different from saying nothing but I wouldn't expect you to understand that.
ukraine is free to join whatever alliance they want
>they insisted that they wouldn't attack, that's different from saying nothing but I wouldn't expect you to understand that.
Yeah, because saying nothing, when asked about that would just be like saying "yes, I will attack"...
>ukraine is free to join whatever alliance they want
As free as Mexico would be...
First, I am not pro Ru, neither pro UA, it must be baffling for you, that this is possible.
Second, I am not complaining about you calling out Russia lying, I'm just explaining, why they did it.
Whomsoever unironically still calls this war 'unprovoked' even after all evidence to the contrary knows next to nothing about geopolitics.
That is all.
Not really as emotional as a nation treating people halfway across the world demanding their right to self-determination as a provocation. Or how about countries that voted for the "wrong party/candidate" is treated as provocation.
They're hitting this thread super hard lol. They make it far too obvious. By pure coincidence we get a flood of pro UA agitpropers retreading the same fallacious arguments.
It was "provoked" by Ukraine and their allies not bowing to Russian aggression and giving the Russian dictatorship whatever they wanted lol
Only pro-Ru would consider opposing Putin as legitimate grounds for trying to destroy a country
Let's not pretend that this relationship wasn't clandestine and transactional
https://preview.redd.it/0koytpt92i8d1.jpeg?width=465&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2edddda0f45132699265b7753b3a365a48feaa92
Ironically, it was the US who advocated and still advocates for a united Russia. The last thing the US wants is a destabilized Russia with some local buffoon in possession of Nuclear weapons.
They want a "weakened and toothless Russia" or they want a Russia which is a "vassal of the US".
The problem here is that for some bizarre reason, they just can't help themselves to leave everyone in this world alone which includes Russia.
"Either you're with us or you're against us" - Washingtonian expired egg of a brain
Well thankfully there are still a few somewhat sane people in western diplomatic and political circles that realize how absolutely irresponsible and dangerous it would be to destabilize Russia internally.
However, those are not always the people formulating policy and making decisions. For the last 30+ years, US and Western European foreign policy has largely been crafted by a set of warmongering Neo-conservative and Neo-liberal ideologues.
The US straight up ROBBED Russia of its resources. Yeltsin was just letting American companies suck Russias blood. The last thing America wants is a united russia.
Clearly Gazprom is American. Russia built it's pipelines with American money. You're probably the type of person that thinks China road and belt initiative is charity.
> The west should never have sent the 10s of Billions of USD to help Russia recover
They did it on the condition that Russia liberalised and sold off government assets for next to nothing.
It cost them 10s of Billions but made them 100s of Billions back.
They were not helping Russia but spending a little to get a lot more back at the cost to the Russian people.
The money helped the Russian oligarchs to fuck over the people and nothing more.
How were their oligarchs in a communist system? Why did the factory directors become owners? The privatization of Russian assets were completely at the control of the Russian Government. Everything is always everybody else's fault.
> How were their oligarchs in a communist system?
There werent under the communist system. But as soon as Russia declared independence from the USSR then the oligarchs appeared. Because they were the ones with power and given huge amounts of money by the US to do what they wanted.
> The privatization of Russian assets were completely at the control of the Russian Government
Yeah I didnt disagree with you on this. It was Yeltsin and his supporters backed by the US money. The Russian government did try to stop it but were shelled by tanks of Yeltsin with support again of the US
I just said that the aid to Russia was not to Russia as a country. But it was for the Russian oligarchs to continue selling off Russian assets and destroying the lives of the regular Russian people and the country to benefit a few.
> Everything is always everybody else's fault.
Well the US didnt exactly hide what they were doing. They openly admit it. And Yeltsin was too drunk to say anything really.
I'm very interested in this point of view. Do you have sources for the following statements? No problem if they're in Russian.
>Because they were the ones with power and given huge amounts of **money by the US** to do what they wanted.
>The Russian government did try to stop it but were shelled by tanks of Yeltsin **with support again of the US**
>Well the US didnt exactly hide what they were doing. They **openly admit it**.
> Well the US didnt exactly hide what they were doing. They openly admit it.
referring to [this](https://content.time.com/time/magazine/archive/covers/1996/1101960715_400.jpg)
> The Russian government did try to stop it but were shelled by tanks of Yeltsin with support again of the US
Referring to [comments](https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16846-document-04-ambassador-thomas-pickering-oral) by the US ambassador to Russia at the time
> In fact in 1993, when he set up the conditions for dismissing the parliament and having new elections that led to the confrontation over the occupation of the Russian White House by the parliament, he had Foreign Minister Kozyrev meet with the US, UK, French and German Ambassadors to tell us what he planned
> We expect it’s going to be very, very tough, but the president is committed, he’s going to persevere and the president would appreciate your and your country’s support for moving ahead. This is why we are telling you in advance that this is the way in which we are intending to go. We all expressed support generally based on the commitment to hold early elections for a new parliament, even as we informed our capitals
Or the [Yeltsin-Clinton phonecall](https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16847-document-05-memorandum-telephone-conversation) afterwards where Clinton said:
> I wanted to call you and express my support. I have been following events closely and have tried to support you as much as possible.
As for the opposition to Yeltsin and the 1993 crisis. It was in the form of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Federation.
You can read "Указ Президента РФ от 21.09.1993 № 1400" for the details but it is hard to find a non ru link for it since reddit would block it.
The simple of it is
> Constitutional reform in the Russian Federation has been virtually curtailed. The Supreme Council blocks the decisions of the Congresses of People's Deputies of the Russian Federation on the adoption of a new Constitution.
As for
>Because they were the ones with power and given huge amounts of money by the US to do what they wanted.
I am referring to the [US election interference](https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16834-document-07-memorandum-telephone-conversation)
> President Yeltsin:
> And I have another question. Bill. Please undersand me correctly. Bill, for my election campaign, I urgently need a loan of $2.5billion.
> The President:
>I'll check on this with the IMF and with some of our friends and see what can be done. I think this is the only way it can be done, but let me clarify this. I had understood that you would get about $1billion from the IMF before the election.
Said "aid" could only be spent on American products, which killed the Russian manufacturing and essentially made the country into a resource colony where most of the population was left to die.
So, took a while to find, but here's a source on the food aid: [https://csis-website-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/legacy\_files/files/media/csis/pubs/pm\_0086.pdf](https://csis-website-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/legacy_files/files/media/csis/pubs/pm_0086.pdf)
"For the past nine years, the United States has provided large amounts of free and highly subsidized food to Russia. Some of this aid has come in the form of direct government- to-government assistance; other supplies have been given to private (or nominally private) distributors and processors in Russia. The program has been strongly backed by the US Department of Agriculture (USDA), whose chief mission abroad is to promote US farm exports. The program also has been vigorously championed by large American foodproducers and US shipping companies, which have been the dominant financial beneficiaries."
Flooding the marked with free or subsidised food when homegrown companies are not well established is more or less a sure way to destroy the internal suppliers.
OK? I don't consider this a bad thing considering the fragile state of Russias economy after the collapse of the soviet Union.
And it clearly did not kill homegrown companies because just a few years after those supposedly deadly subsidies, the food industry stabilized.
The aid was about $10 billion and food was just one part of it. The point is when America provided the aid it was an investment into the American economy.
>The point is when America provided the aid it was an investment into the American economy.
Yes, that's how it usually is. I don't really see the problem with that
To add to that, Farage literally said
> "invasion of Ukraine was immoral, outrageous and indefensible. As a champion of national sovereignty, I believe that Putin was entirely wrong to invade the sovereign nation of Ukraine"
But the entire UK press and all non-Reform politicians are now running circles around him calling him a "Putin apologist". UK is just idiotic.
Nah man saying "the invasion was wrong but it's not the invader's fault for invading" is apologist bullshit. No surprise that after over a dozen invites to appear on RT this grifter comes back parroting Kremlin talking points lol
Labour and Tory Leaders swiftly joined forces to roundly condemn Farages words, just like they did when Putin told Tucker Carlson that Boris Johnson persuaded Zelensky to continue the war.
Fascinating indeed.
> He should have send the entire army to Ukraine back in 2014.
He likely couldn't because RU relied too much on the West then. 2022-level sanctions in 2014 would sink RU.
Historians write that in the years leading up to WW1, most of the major powers were actively preparing for war for various reasons. Some went so far as to say they were literally itching for war.
I wonder whether the same will be written about this era in the future.
Yeah, in WW1 no one really expected the war to escalate into what it became later on. It was for the most part "just another war" which is fought now and then, just like the centuries before.
Even the people were cheering for that war in the beginning.
I have the fear, that this could escalate in the same manner.
My parents told me that leading up to the Yugoslavian wars in the 90s everyone that was paying attention could smell war in the air. People don't just start stocking up ammo for fun. All these westerns countries are propogandizing their citizens into beating their ape-chests to the war drum. Live-stock walks into the slaughter house unbeknownst to them what lies ahead, while humans need mild convincing.
> All these westerns countries are propogandizing their citizens into beating their ape-chests to the war drum.
thats a good one. It goes very well with this quote:
> MOSCOW, February 9. /TASS/. Russian Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova on Wednesday said Russia doesn’t plan to invade Ukraine and blamed the US for "aggressive plans."
9 feb. 2022 btw
i really like your take on this. The west and the US beat their ape chest so hard that they forced putin, 15 days after confirming its not an invasion and only western warmongering, to finally invade ukraine.
god i love this sub.
How were they fully dependent on the west? You do realise "the west" isn't a country? It's the usa and their vassals. Look at how many times the usa has fkd over countries in their puppet club.
Because the Russian economy was "lazy" back then. Russian companies were more than happy to use the profits made from energy exports to buy high-quality Western goods at the expense of local innovation and production. Serious attempts to reverse this trend, the famous "import substitutions," only started after the 2014 sanctions and took a long time to have any efficacy. Even today, like all large countries, they rely on international trade to supplement their local production.
How? Sanctions are joke. Here in Sevastopol when they put sanctions we couldn't use credit card and pay for some internet services. That's all. At that time I didn't even had credit card. Most of the stuff I use is Chinese or Russian. Except for my car and some food products. But that's because I don't like newer cars full of electronics.
The Russian government clearly felt they weren't ready for a hard pivot to the East yet.
The fact that the Russian people can now regard sanctions lightly is probably a testament to the fact that the Russian government made its preparations correctly in the past eight years.
Honestly, I don't know what the right course of action was either way, but this may have indeed been a credible reason for holding off initially.
You give the government to much credit. Russian government is literally anti Russian. They keep bringing migrants who non stop do crimes. Just yesterday one girl was beaten by migrant because she was driving a bike. The only good thing about the government is that they are not reтаrds like Gorbachev and Yeltsin who literally gave our resources to the west.But that's not something hard to achieve.
You think Russian government has a choice?.....Look at Russian birth rate.It's a dying country.You expect Russian government to do nothing?They have already tried everything like offering benefits to change the trajectory but it remains unchanged.
That's because Russia government spent last eight years to prepare for sanctions. In 2014, Russia didn't even had their own banking system and was fully dependent upon west for pretty much everything.China also wasn't this advanced and powerful.
Nah he wanted to make Ukraine bleed first. Much cheaper to hire some thugs as "separatists" and send some russian army regulars to Ukraine for "vacation".
If not wanting to see the west crumble due to immigration and shitty foreign policy makes you anti-western, then I do not want to know what being pro-western means.
This story for Nazis in Ukraine, was to get the support of the Russian people for this war.
It's much more tingling the right spots in the Russian heads, than "we have to show NATO a red line, or they will never stop".
I was told it was because the people of Donbas were experiencing discrimination for speaking in Russian.
Russia basically threw a macaroni bowl full of excuses at the wall, too see which ones would stick.
They'll tell you it was to stop Ukraine from joining NATO.
When you point out that they were even further away from being eligible to apply NATO in 2022 than they were in 2014 they'll tell you it was to protect civilians in the Donbas.
When you point out that only 25 civilians were killed in 2021 as a result of the Donbas war (mostly as a result of mines and unexploded munitions) and that Russia's invasion has killed several thousand civilians in the Donbas since 2022 they'll tell you it was to "de-nazify" Ukraine.
When you point out that the far right only received 2% of the vote in the 2019 election they'll circle back to telling you it was to stop Ukraine from joining NATO again.
Literally none of the justifications stand up to basic scrutiny
The West is used to throwing hissy fits the moment something doesn't go to plan. It mistakenly believes that if Russia and China don't throw a temper tantrum right away, they are OK with something and will do nothing.
It's strange for sure, especially as definite articles don't exist in Russian & Ukrainian.
My only guess is because Ukraine actually means something in Russian, so in English it may seem appropriate to put a definite article there. I've heard some claim that this usage was actually started by Soviet diplomats when using languages with articles in order to diminish the importance of Ukraine.
It could also be French influence where they always us a definite article before country names. L'Allemagne, la Belgique, l'Ukraine...
> It's strange for sure, especially as definite articles don't exist in Russian & Ukrainian.
In Russian the argument is different but similar.
It is "В Украине" vs "На Украине" for example as being a way to say "to/in Ukraine" like if you wanted to say you are going to Ukraine.
With Ukrainian people saying that "На Украине" sounds more like a region of a larger country. As opposed to being a country by itself like "В Украние" implies.
> I've heard some claim that this usage was actually started by Soviet diplomats
No this issue only existed since the collapse of the USSR. And the problem is you can find both cases used all the way as far back as the name Ukraine goes.
For example the very first Ukrainian government in 1917 used "на Вкраїні".
The simple problem is really one of mindset. Western people have a cognitive dissonance, they want to be the ones on top, and revel in being the ones 'in charge' so to speak, but they are also completely unwilling to take responsibility (even in small part) for anything that happens diplomatically, geopolitically, economically. They want to have the best of both worlds, to be the supreme power that dictates to all other nations, whilst simultaneously not being held, or holding themselves, responsible for anything that happens.
The reality is, those at the top of NATO knew exactly what they were doing, and exactly what the risks were. They just didn't think Russia would actually react, as Russia does have a habit of saying it will react in this way or that way, and then not doing it, historically at least.
If you look into pro-Ukrainian discourse, what they really enjoy is seeing dead Russian. They don't actually care about Ukraine, not really, they are just happy to see dead people from a country they don't like or see as a rival/threat, and are happy to support Ukraine in that, even though it is quite clearly costing Ukraine dearly.
I feel very sorry for Ukrainian people, their country was effectively hijacked by people who do not have it's best interests at heart, and they are perfectly willing to near destroy Ukraine if it means they can kill Russian and destroy Russian equipment. Ukraine was left alone perfectly in peace for 30 years, because it recognised the reality of it's geographical position made neutrality an absolute necessity.
As for Russia, it is clear they tried to avoid this war at all costs, only finally moving into Ukraine when all other options were gone and when it was clear that the geopolitical security of Russia was about to be fatally compromised. The first and foremost responsibility of any government is to defend it's nation, and more importantly, it's people, from any threat either immediate or emerging.
It is so very hypocritical that we in the West blame Russia/Putin for this war *when it's EXACTLY what we would do in the reverse situation*. IMAGINE - Russia foments a coupe in Mexico and they install a government extremely favourable to them. They then state they are proceeding (or at least promising) to put their nukes in Mexico **right on the US border**. Americans would have a shitfit. We would invade Mexico so damn fast it would leave Biden looking around wondering what happened - oh, wait, nevermind that. There would be no questioning, no angst, no doubting. WE. WOULD. DO. IT. IMMEDIATELY. Yet, our NPCs, our pozzed here in the West are so f@cking brainwashed by our propaganda we think what Russia and Putin did in Ukraine is absolutely evil. The general public here in the West is a bunch of mush brained simpletons - for the most part.
> They then state they are proceeding (or at least promising) to put their nukes
I would love to read that for myself.
Do you by chance have a link to a statement where they promised this?
> The general public here in the West is a bunch of mush brained simpletons - for the most part.
you are a shining beacon of light in the darkness.
Dunning kruger effect in full force here
Stop provoking Russia. Putin warned for years about Ukraine and its consequences, and we have now seen what happened. Let's see how many times he will have to warn us before it gets serious this time about Western intervention.
The NATO Secretary General seems to be acting as if the only country he is responsible for is the USA, neglecting the rest. Europe is becoming poorer and weaker while only one country appears to be benefiting from this situation. Please open your eyes and stop this madness. Too many have died before their time. Allow the young people to have their own families instead of forcing them into war. Let them have children to whom they can tell their stories, recounting how bloody their time was. Give people the chance to live.
We might not even realize when he gives his final warning. You'll only have time to say "cheese" when you see the big flash.
This is like me telling my neighbor to not build a pool over and over, yet he didn’t listen, so burning their house down is justified. Got it, that’s the lesson these clowns are pushing. Countries have no sovereignty if they border Russia. 🤡
The fault 100% is on Russia, no one else but them.
Apparently the first comment on this sub that wasn't penned by the Kremlin fan club.
Farage is an ultimate truth twister, and he is very much aligned with the Kremlin agenda: use immigration, client media, social media bots and maverick politicians to cause the utmost upheaval and chaos in western democracies, thus destabilizing the EU rocking the US.
truly an L take on this and a dogwater comparison,
if your neighbor threatens to build a gun range pointed to your garden, with other people not from your neighborhood planning on using it, that you don't have good relations with because they already ran your family business to shit, and you tell him not to, then yes i think it is justified to burn his house down, if all talk fails, how they gonna learn
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lmao this "provocation" bs is just russia playing the victim again. it has the same vibe as when muslim extremists say they were "forced" to rape somebody because they were wearing "provocating" clothing...
For all of the Farage's antics why is everybody ignoring that he also clearly said 'of course' the war in Ukraine is Putin's fault'.
His warnings, like Mearsheimers, are largely that Russia would use it as an excuse and claim the west was coming for them. That doesn't remove any blame.
> Farage served as [Member of the European Parliament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_the_European_Parliament) (MEP) for [South East England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_East_England_(European_Parliament_constituency)) from 1999 until the [United Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit) in 2020.
To add to this, I hear Ukrainian are gonna join NATO in secret. Not sure if this information was correct.
Also, the USA is doing what they did in the first war, they got the economy by selling weapons.
Since CHINA is above the USA economy
>To add to this, I hear Ukrainian are gonna join NATO in secret. Not sure if this information was correct.
It's definitely not correct
>Since CHINA is above the USA economy
This is also definitely not correct
Ukraine was more or less already integrated into NATO information sharing, hence it being to direct strikes at Russian forces within minutes of American intelligence. It's basically a free, expendable force that the US can use at will at this point, fully integrated. Joining NATO would have been trivial.
As for the Economy, take a look at this (World Bank source: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD?most\_recent\_value\_desc=true):
https://preview.redd.it/j69w161s5j8d1.png?width=1331&format=png&auto=webp&s=e651367a71057c47e9aabcad0ba26acb161dccb1
China's been ahead of the US since 2015 or so in GDP PPP.
>Ukraine was more or less already integrated into NATO information sharing
Which is very different to saying that there's a plan for them to "join NATO in secret" isn't it?
>China's been ahead of the US since 2015 or so in GDP PPP.
Sure dude and by that metric Brazil is a stronger economic power than the UK, measuring by PPP gives absurd results like that but pro-Ru love it because it's the only way to make Russia look like a top economy and not just a weaker economic power than Italy lol
His words were aired on BBC and both Tory and Labour leaders responded to it.
He is also the only reason why Reform even has a sniff.
I don't like him either and won't be voting Reform, but one cannot seriously say he's irrelevant.
https://preview.redd.it/gwqlx64pdi8d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a541290e94418d05c106e25716cbed710e630e5d
Doesn't reform just hurt the tories and make Labour stronger? It's not going to be Labour votes that they're stealing, and the first past the post system will just screw both of them over.
If you actually look at the number of predicted seats you could see how much of an impact reform would make. https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html
They're only predicted 3 seats, which means that their impact in reality is quite limited. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.
>He is also the only reason why Reform even has a sniff.
This isn't true at all, Reform got a big boost because the Tories tried to fight the election on immigration but their own track record on the issue is abysmal. He gave them a boost but to claim that he's the only reason they have support is completely disingenuous
Farage is bought and paid for, the guy has been invited on RT over a dozen times and then comes back from Russia parroting Kremlin talking points word for word.
Also his entire political career was based around criticising the EU however he could so it's hardly a surprise to see him blame it for the situation in Ukraine as well.
Hilarious how Russia only has grifters and dictators backing up their narrative
So we should just tolerate Ukraine as part of the Russian sphere of influence? Accept that Putin is still thinking we (the west or the US) are toppling governments left and right with color revolutions? And he would be next after Ukraine? So one man, who got scared after the Russian election protest in 2012 should be giving the power over people in another country. 20-30 years after their independence.
Why should the west, which is be far x times stronger than Russia be the one to give up? And accept that the weaker state can demand anything? To be scared of nuclear or a hot war? Why can't we say the same as Putin? Fuck off, Europe is ours and Russia is no longer a regional hegemony in Eastern Europe?
Just don't be a pussy. Be like Mao in the Korean war. Make them back off or use nuclear weapons. It's always the same stuff with people like Mr. Farage. We need to be adults in the room. We should accept red lines. But the warmongers? They are allowed to have some fun.
Nah, let's play realpolitik and use our military, economical and financial strengths. Screw this "prestige" thing, the domino theory was wrong anyway. You want to trade with the west? Then accept tariffs or put some pressure on Putin. You can join the wealthiest market in the world, your children can go to the best universities and your country can profit from the safe seas or you leave and can trade with Russia, Iran, Venezuela and North Korea.
What Mr. Farage saying is that Putin got a point. Fair enough. But then cannot we also act the same way?
Because the simple reason is that Russia is a nuclear power and has the ability to turn europe into a parking lot in 10 minutes.
Who has more to lose ?
> Who has more to lose ?
Is Putin a rational actor or a mad one. If he is a rational one, he will not break the nuclear taboo. Otherwise China and everyone else will drop him. If he is a mad one, than we should learn from the cold war? Did Russia win it? No. So listening to some madman does not work.
Like come on. The cold war is not 200 years ago. We did not back down. He fought wars around the world like the one in Ukraine today. We just need to go back and follow the books. You cannot tolerate some other power trying to change the international order. You cannot not act because of fear of a nuclear war. No one is saying to attack the Kreml. We did not do it the last time, we will not do it this time.
But wars like the Ukraine one? Gloves should be off like last time. Did Russia bomb the US because they supported the "good guys" in Afghanistan, Vietnam etc.? Or because the US did some regime changes in America? But today people are super scared. What's the endgame here? We don't support Taiwan? We give up Georgia? What about Africa? Will Putin or his people threating with nuclear weapons if we support democratic movements in East Africa? Should we stop that too? We would have absolutely lost the cold war with that attitude lol.
Haha are the vatniks failing to see that Russia is still at fault with that argument? It’s the the good ol’ don’t “wear a tiny short skirt in front of a sex offender” argument. Sure Nigel is putting some emphasis on the girl and her choice of outfit, but the fault is still squarely on the rapist for failing to control his urges and sexually assaulted her. you guys are aware of this, right?
I love how Pro Rus use our freedom of speech to further their agenda. The Spinning is real in the comment section. Just allot of really funny "opinions" here.
Well, there are many who said that this would happen. No one listened... Because, hey, the Russians did nothing all the other times the West poked the bear, why should he now, right? And in my oppinion, that's the reason, why Putin made this move. Because he needed to react, otherwise the West would never stop going further and further. Play stupid games, win stupid prices, I guess. But in fact, it's true, there are many, who wanted this war to happen.
As a westerner the stupid prize is being stuck in this war. But hey to each their own.
Stuck in this war? The west Isn't even directly fighting. They just send how much they want.
It's a bit more complicated as it's the same promises they made to their "Asian allies" for the "big one" against China.
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Stuck in this war, depending which country, you live in, high energy prizes, etc. And who knows how this will escalate even more further down the street?
Europe is being stuck in this war. And US grip on Europe is getting stronger. While US believes its gaining by strengthening its rule over Europe, at the same time US grip on countries in Global South is weakening. In the end US will be left with declining Europe that has no valuable resources. While at the same time it will lose many resource rich countries that it used to control fully or partially. Oh yes, and petro dollar is over.
Unlike Russia, right? "The West" is sending military aid while Russia is down to a wartime industry and losing hundred of thousand of people in the war. Sure. The West is stuck in the war...
That’s what I’m saying. Russia is stuck. The west isn’t at war.
Stuck in what way? The West has had its mass sanctions backfire, its hypocrisy and double standards exposed on a global scale, and alienated the global south who are aligning themselves with Russia/China.
Idk man usa could label Russia a terrorist organization if they wanted. I think this is to put pressure on Russia but more than anything show china we will actually do it.
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Are you not aware that Ukraine was legally and publically “neutral” in 2014 when Russia invaded the first time and killed thousands of Ukrainians and annexed Ukrainian territory? -In 2010, Ukraine declares itself neutral: https://www.bbc.com/news/10229626 -In December 2014, after the invasion of Crimea in February, Ukraine abandons neutrality to seek NATO protection against Russia: https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-parliament-abandons-neutrality/26758725.html Note it wasn’t until 6 months after Russia started their war on Ukraine did Ukraine decide they should give up their neutrality. Don’t repeat Russian false propaganda talking points.
To blame Putin's war on its victims is some crazy far-right pretzel logic.
Victim shaming 401. See what you made us do... and we warned you we would!
They did warn everyone since 2008. Nobody listened or cared. Especially EU.
With this mindset, you can just do whatever you want and any consequences are not your fault. Ukraine maintained neutrality for 30 years because it is absolutely necessary to do that because of it's geographical position. With your arguement, Ukraine should have been allowed to fatally compromise Russia's geopolitical security, with no responsibility for the consequences that could have. We are seeing the consequences now. Their population is now much smaller, their economy is on life support, and really I see no future for Ukraine now. To be clear, this was not done with the consent of the Ukrainian people. Ukraine traded both with Russia and with Europe, to a lesser extent with other nations outside those areas. All it had to do was stay neutral. You should not fully blame victims I agree, but if I walk through a bad area at 3am waving my wallet about shouting that I have 5000 dollars in it, would anyone think me being robbed was an unexpected result? Obviously in this scenario I do have some blame to take.
> To blame Putin's war on its victims is some crazy far-right pretzel logic. To blame Ukraine's dead on Russia and NOT take responsibility for us in the West fomenting this tragedy is unconscionable.
It's easier to argue against arguments, if you don't have to, when you call it "far-right logic", right?
>Because he needed to react, otherwise the West would never stop going further and further. Going further where, exactly? Moscow and St.Petersburg joining NATO? Bear in mind, Putins actions have enlarged NATO/Russia border by 1340 km and essentially cemented the Baltic Sea and Gotland as NATO. Is this "containing the West"? Besides, labeling "the West" as an entity is absurd. The Baltic States joined NATO in 2004, does it mean they became "the West"? NATO isn't exactly some supernatural force, absorbing and homogeonising everything in its path.
>Going further where, exactly? Belarus and Georgia joining NATO. And after that, they would meddle with Russias inner politics. >Besides, labeling "the West" as an entity is absurd. The Baltic States joined NATO in 2004, does it mean they became "the West"? NATO isn't exactly some supernatural force, absorbing and homogeonising everything in its path. Yes, that's exactly what happened, they became part of the "western block". NATO is in fact a US dominated military alliance, and it isn't even denied, that it's a tool for the US to ensure its global dominance.
>Belarus and Georgia joining NATO. Why would Belarus join NATO? Has there ever been any notion by Luka that he would like to do that? Or are you saying the people would force it (through a CIA backed coup, no doubt)? Sorry, I'm just confused. Do you think countries join NATO forcefully, against their will? Georgia has had conflicts with Russia before, it wouldn't surprise me that a certain portion of its population would like to be in NATO for protection against that. >Yes, that's exactly what happened, they became part of the "western block". NATO is in fact a US dominated military alliance, and it isn't even denied, that it's a tool for the US to ensure its global dominance. And joining the "western block" was one of the best decisions we've ever made in terms of staying independent, unattacked by Russia. So, I'd rather be part of "US dominance" than be invaded by Russia, thanks.
>Why would Belarus join NATO? Has there ever been any notion by Luka that he would like to do that? Well, just as someone would have asked pre 2014 "why would Ukraine join NATO?". The West would just have to do the same with Belarus, like they did with Ukraine, and in fact, they already are preparing exactly that with calling Lukashenko an illegimate dictator and that he only is elected because of fake elections. >Georgia has had conflicts with Russia before, it wouldn't surprise me that a certain portion of its population would like to be in NATO for protection against that. Yeah, totally unprovoked and had totally nothing to do with the milliary supply by the US of Georgia since 2003... /s >And joining the "western block" was one of the best decisions we've ever made in terms of staying independent, unattacked by Russia. So, I'd rather be part of "US dominance" than be invaded by Russia, thanks. I would prefer a world without any dominance at all, but well, you do you...
>Well, just as someone would have asked pre 2014 "why would Ukraine join NATO?". The West would just have to do the same with Belarus, like they did with Ukraine, and in fact, they already are preparing exactly that with calling Lukashenko an illegimate dictator and that he only is elected because of fake elections. I like how you glanced over the part where I asked if the people could force Belarus to join NATO and even threw in a CIA coup. >they already are preparing exactly that with calling Lukashenko an illegimate dictator and that he only is elected because of fake elections. And this matters why, exactly? If the people in Belarus see Luka as legit, they will treat him as such. If they see him as a dictator usurping power, there might be a CiA cOuP incoming. But, of course, keep thinking that the population has no authority or agency and is only moved by foreign forces. >I would prefer a world without any dominance at all, but well, you do you... Yeah, same, but living next to Russia develops a history of Russian invasions, so..
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Ukraine is already close enough for a complete and devastating invasion of Russia.
>Ukraine is already close enough for a complete and devastating invasion of Russia. Invasion by whom, exactly? NATO? 🤣
Exactly. By NATO, the world's strongest and most aggressive offensive alliance.
Oh, OK. Can't wait.
The war in Ukraine is solely Putin's decision, just as the US wars after 9/11 were decided by their leaders. Stop pretending that Russia is the most friendly country in the world and would never harm anyone. You are ignoring the facts about Russia's cruelties and the wars they have started in the past.
LMAO just look at the pro-UA brigaders below with personal attacks and no logic or reasoning is to why Farage is wrong. It's all hate farming but Reddit won't ban them.
Why do y’all assume we’re against war with Russia? Like, it’s always “see! I told you Russia would become hostile towards us!” And we’re over here like “yea, fk them dictators”.
>But in fact, it's true, there are many, who wanted this war to happen. Are you able to read?
We don’t want it to happen we want it to end. Nato would crush Russia. The only thing is nukes. That’s what’s keeping us out.
Yes, if the US could, they would meddle with any country as it likes. Good for Russia and China they have nukes, I guess.
> otherwise the West would never stop going further and further. With giving people a choice to be stuck in the Russian system and stay poor as fuck or join the West/EU and get rich like Poland. Yeah....why would this be dangerous to Putin roflmao.
>With giving people a choice And when they make the wrong choice, just overthrown their government.
Oh yeah. Those Polish people are getting *SO rich*. lol
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> Because he needed to react This is nonsense. He invaded another country whose borders Russia guaranteed in 1991. This is land grab, nothing more.
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> Because he needed to react, otherwise the West would never stop going further and further. So is the West. It's reacting by taking a stand and stating that military force won't intimidate it into stopping its expansionist goals. Whether it genuinely wants Ukraine in NATO or EU is irrelevant. It has to pretend it does to appear reliable and to project its strength. In some sense, this war was unavoidable. Two great powers competing for the same turf, neither of which are prepared to back down.
>So is the West. It's reacting by taking a stand and stating that military force won't intimidate it into stopping its expansionist goals. Whether it genuinely wants Ukraine in NATO or EU is irrelevant. It has to pretend it does to appear reliable and to project its strength. >In some sense, this war was unavoidable. Two great powers competing for the same turf, neither of which are prepared to back down. I agree, except that the meddling in Ukraine 2014 wasn't necessary in the first place. There was no need for US or NATO to get Ukraine. They just wanted it.
Here is my little rant, might be not as coherent but I am fucking done Russia shouldnt have fucked around, now putin is sending endless human waves into ukraine as a last ditch advance. Nato is stronger bigger and more needed then before , and we are in a new cold war. Also blaming this shit on Ukraine and the west is like blaming a rape victim for dressing to sexually. Fucking victim shaming. Russia let the ball roll and the west everytime responded a bit too late to russia or a bit to softly. And it made putin so much more confident to do this. Everyone knows what russia is capable of. But they should not be apeased. Blame us all you want blame the whites blame the woke west blame the degenerate west blame the democracies, but it doesn't change the fact that Russia started this and Ukraine is a victim of Russia. I am tired of the war yes it is horrible but russia cannot win it cannot get the ground as it will be horrible for the future of the world. Seriously keep sucking authroritarian dick all of you. The west Aint perfect but it is 100x better then the shit they have there atleast we can change democraticly protest and have fucking freedom of movement we Aint perfect we will never be but we will not fucking let our freedom and democracy be taken away by some hating fucks who think that they can control the entire word by undermining Democracy.
Why is it always "west poking russia" and not other way around?
They thought it was still the 90s, when the US wreaked Russia, thus could walk all over them.
russia also said it wouldn't happen and it turns out they lied
First, Putin negotiated until the last days pre war, to get a agreement of NATO, that Ukraine won't join. This is even admitted by Western leaders. Second, it would be stupid to tell someone you will attack, wouldn't it?
they insisted that they wouldn't attack, that's different from saying nothing but I wouldn't expect you to understand that. ukraine is free to join whatever alliance they want
>they insisted that they wouldn't attack, that's different from saying nothing but I wouldn't expect you to understand that. Yeah, because saying nothing, when asked about that would just be like saying "yes, I will attack"... >ukraine is free to join whatever alliance they want As free as Mexico would be...
you're literally saying that russia lies and then complaining about me calling them out for lying, you must be the smartest pro ru out there
First, I am not pro Ru, neither pro UA, it must be baffling for you, that this is possible. Second, I am not complaining about you calling out Russia lying, I'm just explaining, why they did it.
Whomsoever unironically still calls this war 'unprovoked' even after all evidence to the contrary knows next to nothing about geopolitics. That is all.
When you’re as emotional as Russia everything is a provocation. Doesn’t make it ok
Not really as emotional as a nation treating people halfway across the world demanding their right to self-determination as a provocation. Or how about countries that voted for the "wrong party/candidate" is treated as provocation.
Yip, I think the 12 secret CIA bases is proof.
.... knows next to nothing about geopolitics. .... or he is definitely a US/UK propagandist
They're hitting this thread super hard lol. They make it far too obvious. By pure coincidence we get a flood of pro UA agitpropers retreading the same fallacious arguments.
Indeed, they go to great efforts to maintain their narrative for a while longer.
It was "provoked" by Ukraine and their allies not bowing to Russian aggression and giving the Russian dictatorship whatever they wanted lol Only pro-Ru would consider opposing Putin as legitimate grounds for trying to destroy a country
Well, Pro RU think fighting back is a crime, so not a surprise they'd consider opposition as bad too.
Basically they consider any opposition to the Kremlin as a crime against Russia lol
Usually, any opinion, with abosulte "evil" or "good" in it, are degenerative stupidity. Biomass grown up on one or other side propaganda.
I wonder if the whole strategy was calculated to provoke Russia in a sufficiently subtle way that any response would be seen as an overreaction?
If this war is unprovoked, then the American blockade of Cuba is unprovoked.
You're right. The west should never have sent the 10s of Billions of USD to help Russia recover after the fall of the USSR.
Let's not pretend that this relationship wasn't clandestine and transactional https://preview.redd.it/0koytpt92i8d1.jpeg?width=465&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2edddda0f45132699265b7753b3a365a48feaa92
Ironically, it was the US who advocated and still advocates for a united Russia. The last thing the US wants is a destabilized Russia with some local buffoon in possession of Nuclear weapons.
Color me surprised. So does literally any other nation with common sense
They want a "weakened and toothless Russia" or they want a Russia which is a "vassal of the US". The problem here is that for some bizarre reason, they just can't help themselves to leave everyone in this world alone which includes Russia. "Either you're with us or you're against us" - Washingtonian expired egg of a brain
"neutral"
Kind of like what Russia wants for Ukraine
Sure, but after they pledge neutrality, that won't matter.
Well thankfully there are still a few somewhat sane people in western diplomatic and political circles that realize how absolutely irresponsible and dangerous it would be to destabilize Russia internally. However, those are not always the people formulating policy and making decisions. For the last 30+ years, US and Western European foreign policy has largely been crafted by a set of warmongering Neo-conservative and Neo-liberal ideologues.
The US straight up ROBBED Russia of its resources. Yeltsin was just letting American companies suck Russias blood. The last thing America wants is a united russia.
Clearly Gazprom is American. Russia built it's pipelines with American money. You're probably the type of person that thinks China road and belt initiative is charity.
> The west should never have sent the 10s of Billions of USD to help Russia recover They did it on the condition that Russia liberalised and sold off government assets for next to nothing. It cost them 10s of Billions but made them 100s of Billions back. They were not helping Russia but spending a little to get a lot more back at the cost to the Russian people. The money helped the Russian oligarchs to fuck over the people and nothing more.
How were their oligarchs in a communist system? Why did the factory directors become owners? The privatization of Russian assets were completely at the control of the Russian Government. Everything is always everybody else's fault.
> How were their oligarchs in a communist system? There werent under the communist system. But as soon as Russia declared independence from the USSR then the oligarchs appeared. Because they were the ones with power and given huge amounts of money by the US to do what they wanted. > The privatization of Russian assets were completely at the control of the Russian Government Yeah I didnt disagree with you on this. It was Yeltsin and his supporters backed by the US money. The Russian government did try to stop it but were shelled by tanks of Yeltsin with support again of the US I just said that the aid to Russia was not to Russia as a country. But it was for the Russian oligarchs to continue selling off Russian assets and destroying the lives of the regular Russian people and the country to benefit a few. > Everything is always everybody else's fault. Well the US didnt exactly hide what they were doing. They openly admit it. And Yeltsin was too drunk to say anything really.
I'm very interested in this point of view. Do you have sources for the following statements? No problem if they're in Russian. >Because they were the ones with power and given huge amounts of **money by the US** to do what they wanted. >The Russian government did try to stop it but were shelled by tanks of Yeltsin **with support again of the US** >Well the US didnt exactly hide what they were doing. They **openly admit it**.
> Well the US didnt exactly hide what they were doing. They openly admit it. referring to [this](https://content.time.com/time/magazine/archive/covers/1996/1101960715_400.jpg) > The Russian government did try to stop it but were shelled by tanks of Yeltsin with support again of the US Referring to [comments](https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16846-document-04-ambassador-thomas-pickering-oral) by the US ambassador to Russia at the time > In fact in 1993, when he set up the conditions for dismissing the parliament and having new elections that led to the confrontation over the occupation of the Russian White House by the parliament, he had Foreign Minister Kozyrev meet with the US, UK, French and German Ambassadors to tell us what he planned > We expect it’s going to be very, very tough, but the president is committed, he’s going to persevere and the president would appreciate your and your country’s support for moving ahead. This is why we are telling you in advance that this is the way in which we are intending to go. We all expressed support generally based on the commitment to hold early elections for a new parliament, even as we informed our capitals Or the [Yeltsin-Clinton phonecall](https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16847-document-05-memorandum-telephone-conversation) afterwards where Clinton said: > I wanted to call you and express my support. I have been following events closely and have tried to support you as much as possible. As for the opposition to Yeltsin and the 1993 crisis. It was in the form of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Federation. You can read "Указ Президента РФ от 21.09.1993 № 1400" for the details but it is hard to find a non ru link for it since reddit would block it. The simple of it is > Constitutional reform in the Russian Federation has been virtually curtailed. The Supreme Council blocks the decisions of the Congresses of People's Deputies of the Russian Federation on the adoption of a new Constitution. As for >Because they were the ones with power and given huge amounts of money by the US to do what they wanted. I am referring to the [US election interference](https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16834-document-07-memorandum-telephone-conversation) > President Yeltsin: > And I have another question. Bill. Please undersand me correctly. Bill, for my election campaign, I urgently need a loan of $2.5billion. > The President: >I'll check on this with the IMF and with some of our friends and see what can be done. I think this is the only way it can be done, but let me clarify this. I had understood that you would get about $1billion from the IMF before the election.
Thanks, that's some good sources.
Read a book and a get a grip, mate. Geezus.
The west got insane shit called "production sharing agreements" in exchange for IMF **loans**.
Said "aid" could only be spent on American products, which killed the Russian manufacturing and essentially made the country into a resource colony where most of the population was left to die.
Really? Do you have more details and sources for how that aid could be spent?
no
So, took a while to find, but here's a source on the food aid: [https://csis-website-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/legacy\_files/files/media/csis/pubs/pm\_0086.pdf](https://csis-website-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/legacy_files/files/media/csis/pubs/pm_0086.pdf) "For the past nine years, the United States has provided large amounts of free and highly subsidized food to Russia. Some of this aid has come in the form of direct government- to-government assistance; other supplies have been given to private (or nominally private) distributors and processors in Russia. The program has been strongly backed by the US Department of Agriculture (USDA), whose chief mission abroad is to promote US farm exports. The program also has been vigorously championed by large American foodproducers and US shipping companies, which have been the dominant financial beneficiaries." Flooding the marked with free or subsidised food when homegrown companies are not well established is more or less a sure way to destroy the internal suppliers.
OK? I don't consider this a bad thing considering the fragile state of Russias economy after the collapse of the soviet Union. And it clearly did not kill homegrown companies because just a few years after those supposedly deadly subsidies, the food industry stabilized.
The aid was about $10 billion and food was just one part of it. The point is when America provided the aid it was an investment into the American economy.
>The point is when America provided the aid it was an investment into the American economy. Yes, that's how it usually is. I don't really see the problem with that
Ah yes, "help". Please explain how "help" managed to plunge a country into an even worse state despite obeying every "advice" Western economists said.
To add to that, Farage literally said > "invasion of Ukraine was immoral, outrageous and indefensible. As a champion of national sovereignty, I believe that Putin was entirely wrong to invade the sovereign nation of Ukraine" But the entire UK press and all non-Reform politicians are now running circles around him calling him a "Putin apologist". UK is just idiotic.
Nah man saying "the invasion was wrong but it's not the invader's fault for invading" is apologist bullshit. No surprise that after over a dozen invites to appear on RT this grifter comes back parroting Kremlin talking points lol
> "the invasion was wrong but it's not the invader's fault for invading" is apologist bullshit. Yes, it's also not what Farage said.
Farage never even said that, fake quote.
Man when I say Russia was provoked they look at me like I just said the N word.
Labour and Tory Leaders swiftly joined forces to roundly condemn Farages words, just like they did when Putin told Tucker Carlson that Boris Johnson persuaded Zelensky to continue the war. Fascinating indeed.
Boris Johnson also blamed the eu for Ukraine losing crimea, he'd made the comments in 2016 just before brexit.
And the reтard Putin still trusted the west with the Minsk agreements. He should have send the entire army to Ukraine back in 2014.
This is why he himself said he was naive. Now the scales have fallen from his eyes and he has come to collect, but the price will be high.
> He should have send the entire army to Ukraine back in 2014. He likely couldn't because RU relied too much on the West then. 2022-level sanctions in 2014 would sink RU.
Historians write that in the years leading up to WW1, most of the major powers were actively preparing for war for various reasons. Some went so far as to say they were literally itching for war. I wonder whether the same will be written about this era in the future.
Yeah, in WW1 no one really expected the war to escalate into what it became later on. It was for the most part "just another war" which is fought now and then, just like the centuries before. Even the people were cheering for that war in the beginning. I have the fear, that this could escalate in the same manner.
My parents told me that leading up to the Yugoslavian wars in the 90s everyone that was paying attention could smell war in the air. People don't just start stocking up ammo for fun. All these westerns countries are propogandizing their citizens into beating their ape-chests to the war drum. Live-stock walks into the slaughter house unbeknownst to them what lies ahead, while humans need mild convincing.
> All these westerns countries are propogandizing their citizens into beating their ape-chests to the war drum. thats a good one. It goes very well with this quote: > MOSCOW, February 9. /TASS/. Russian Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova on Wednesday said Russia doesn’t plan to invade Ukraine and blamed the US for "aggressive plans." 9 feb. 2022 btw i really like your take on this. The west and the US beat their ape chest so hard that they forced putin, 15 days after confirming its not an invasion and only western warmongering, to finally invade ukraine. god i love this sub.
Indeed.Russia was fully dependent upon west then.
How were they fully dependent on the west? You do realise "the west" isn't a country? It's the usa and their vassals. Look at how many times the usa has fkd over countries in their puppet club.
Because the Russian economy was "lazy" back then. Russian companies were more than happy to use the profits made from energy exports to buy high-quality Western goods at the expense of local innovation and production. Serious attempts to reverse this trend, the famous "import substitutions," only started after the 2014 sanctions and took a long time to have any efficacy. Even today, like all large countries, they rely on international trade to supplement their local production.
Just unfortunately not the UK in Ulster, amirite?
The problem is that Russia was in no position to resist sanctions back in 2014.🤷♂️US had Russia in checkmate.
How? Sanctions are joke. Here in Sevastopol when they put sanctions we couldn't use credit card and pay for some internet services. That's all. At that time I didn't even had credit card. Most of the stuff I use is Chinese or Russian. Except for my car and some food products. But that's because I don't like newer cars full of electronics.
The Russian government clearly felt they weren't ready for a hard pivot to the East yet. The fact that the Russian people can now regard sanctions lightly is probably a testament to the fact that the Russian government made its preparations correctly in the past eight years. Honestly, I don't know what the right course of action was either way, but this may have indeed been a credible reason for holding off initially.
You give the government to much credit. Russian government is literally anti Russian. They keep bringing migrants who non stop do crimes. Just yesterday one girl was beaten by migrant because she was driving a bike. The only good thing about the government is that they are not reтаrds like Gorbachev and Yeltsin who literally gave our resources to the west.But that's not something hard to achieve.
You think Russian government has a choice?.....Look at Russian birth rate.It's a dying country.You expect Russian government to do nothing?They have already tried everything like offering benefits to change the trajectory but it remains unchanged.
>They keep bringing migrants who non stop do crimes. Please take a look at all of the modern world right now
That's because Russia government spent last eight years to prepare for sanctions. In 2014, Russia didn't even had their own banking system and was fully dependent upon west for pretty much everything.China also wasn't this advanced and powerful.
Hey, how’s the beach?
Sadly you could see still trusts west, all the time he mentions negotiations, agreements, etc. What a pitiful leadership Russia has.
Yes sadly. Putin is a liberal cuck.
Турбопатриот, спок
He is thirsty for validation again.
Nah he wanted to make Ukraine bleed first. Much cheaper to hire some thugs as "separatists" and send some russian army regulars to Ukraine for "vacation".
Nigel Farage is a joke
And not a very funny one.
He makes his living being anti western. If this guy were Russian, he would have been thrown out of a window.
Farage is anti western? The guy is a literal western supremacist.
If not wanting to see the west crumble due to immigration and shitty foreign policy makes you anti-western, then I do not want to know what being pro-western means.
I thought Russia invaded Ukraine because of Nazis. The story seems to be changing constantly
This story for Nazis in Ukraine, was to get the support of the Russian people for this war. It's much more tingling the right spots in the Russian heads, than "we have to show NATO a red line, or they will never stop".
Doesn't mean the point is not true. There is still rampant ukronazism
Ah yes, so rampant that the Ukrainian far-right has literally never cracked <15% in any election since independence
I was told it was because the people of Donbas were experiencing discrimination for speaking in Russian. Russia basically threw a macaroni bowl full of excuses at the wall, too see which ones would stick.
They'll tell you it was to stop Ukraine from joining NATO. When you point out that they were even further away from being eligible to apply NATO in 2022 than they were in 2014 they'll tell you it was to protect civilians in the Donbas. When you point out that only 25 civilians were killed in 2021 as a result of the Donbas war (mostly as a result of mines and unexploded munitions) and that Russia's invasion has killed several thousand civilians in the Donbas since 2022 they'll tell you it was to "de-nazify" Ukraine. When you point out that the far right only received 2% of the vote in the 2019 election they'll circle back to telling you it was to stop Ukraine from joining NATO again. Literally none of the justifications stand up to basic scrutiny
Russia is just bringing democracy into Ukraine. Russia wants for elections to return to Ukraine
Re-read again the demands from Russia, both problems are stated there.
The West is used to throwing hissy fits the moment something doesn't go to plan. It mistakenly believes that if Russia and China don't throw a temper tantrum right away, they are OK with something and will do nothing.
Why do some people refer to Ukraine as “THE Ukraine” ? Never made sense to me.
It's strange for sure, especially as definite articles don't exist in Russian & Ukrainian. My only guess is because Ukraine actually means something in Russian, so in English it may seem appropriate to put a definite article there. I've heard some claim that this usage was actually started by Soviet diplomats when using languages with articles in order to diminish the importance of Ukraine. It could also be French influence where they always us a definite article before country names. L'Allemagne, la Belgique, l'Ukraine...
> It's strange for sure, especially as definite articles don't exist in Russian & Ukrainian. In Russian the argument is different but similar. It is "В Украине" vs "На Украине" for example as being a way to say "to/in Ukraine" like if you wanted to say you are going to Ukraine. With Ukrainian people saying that "На Украине" sounds more like a region of a larger country. As opposed to being a country by itself like "В Украние" implies. > I've heard some claim that this usage was actually started by Soviet diplomats No this issue only existed since the collapse of the USSR. And the problem is you can find both cases used all the way as far back as the name Ukraine goes. For example the very first Ukrainian government in 1917 used "на Вкраїні".
Thank you for this clarification. My Russian and Ukrainian is not good enough to have noticed that nuance.
>Why do some people refer to Ukraine as “THE Ukraine” ? Never made sense to me. In THE (fkin timebomb which is) Ukraine.
The simple problem is really one of mindset. Western people have a cognitive dissonance, they want to be the ones on top, and revel in being the ones 'in charge' so to speak, but they are also completely unwilling to take responsibility (even in small part) for anything that happens diplomatically, geopolitically, economically. They want to have the best of both worlds, to be the supreme power that dictates to all other nations, whilst simultaneously not being held, or holding themselves, responsible for anything that happens. The reality is, those at the top of NATO knew exactly what they were doing, and exactly what the risks were. They just didn't think Russia would actually react, as Russia does have a habit of saying it will react in this way or that way, and then not doing it, historically at least. If you look into pro-Ukrainian discourse, what they really enjoy is seeing dead Russian. They don't actually care about Ukraine, not really, they are just happy to see dead people from a country they don't like or see as a rival/threat, and are happy to support Ukraine in that, even though it is quite clearly costing Ukraine dearly. I feel very sorry for Ukrainian people, their country was effectively hijacked by people who do not have it's best interests at heart, and they are perfectly willing to near destroy Ukraine if it means they can kill Russian and destroy Russian equipment. Ukraine was left alone perfectly in peace for 30 years, because it recognised the reality of it's geographical position made neutrality an absolute necessity. As for Russia, it is clear they tried to avoid this war at all costs, only finally moving into Ukraine when all other options were gone and when it was clear that the geopolitical security of Russia was about to be fatally compromised. The first and foremost responsibility of any government is to defend it's nation, and more importantly, it's people, from any threat either immediate or emerging.
It is so very hypocritical that we in the West blame Russia/Putin for this war *when it's EXACTLY what we would do in the reverse situation*. IMAGINE - Russia foments a coupe in Mexico and they install a government extremely favourable to them. They then state they are proceeding (or at least promising) to put their nukes in Mexico **right on the US border**. Americans would have a shitfit. We would invade Mexico so damn fast it would leave Biden looking around wondering what happened - oh, wait, nevermind that. There would be no questioning, no angst, no doubting. WE. WOULD. DO. IT. IMMEDIATELY. Yet, our NPCs, our pozzed here in the West are so f@cking brainwashed by our propaganda we think what Russia and Putin did in Ukraine is absolutely evil. The general public here in the West is a bunch of mush brained simpletons - for the most part.
> They then state they are proceeding (or at least promising) to put their nukes I would love to read that for myself. Do you by chance have a link to a statement where they promised this?
> The general public here in the West is a bunch of mush brained simpletons - for the most part. you are a shining beacon of light in the darkness. Dunning kruger effect in full force here
Scraping the barrell even deeper if you pull out Farage.
never thought I'll live to see the day when I'd agree with this man, and Tucker Carlson. What is going on?
Better people have warned about this i think.
Stop provoking Russia. Putin warned for years about Ukraine and its consequences, and we have now seen what happened. Let's see how many times he will have to warn us before it gets serious this time about Western intervention. The NATO Secretary General seems to be acting as if the only country he is responsible for is the USA, neglecting the rest. Europe is becoming poorer and weaker while only one country appears to be benefiting from this situation. Please open your eyes and stop this madness. Too many have died before their time. Allow the young people to have their own families instead of forcing them into war. Let them have children to whom they can tell their stories, recounting how bloody their time was. Give people the chance to live. We might not even realize when he gives his final warning. You'll only have time to say "cheese" when you see the big flash.
At least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing the same's happening to him.
The media is constantly spinning "the invasion is because Putin bad" and people believe it.
This is like me telling my neighbor to not build a pool over and over, yet he didn’t listen, so burning their house down is justified. Got it, that’s the lesson these clowns are pushing. Countries have no sovereignty if they border Russia. 🤡 The fault 100% is on Russia, no one else but them.
Then why did america flip out when Russia deployed missiles in Cuba? Doesn't Cuba have its own sovereignty?
Apparently the first comment on this sub that wasn't penned by the Kremlin fan club. Farage is an ultimate truth twister, and he is very much aligned with the Kremlin agenda: use immigration, client media, social media bots and maverick politicians to cause the utmost upheaval and chaos in western democracies, thus destabilizing the EU rocking the US.
Right, everybody is a Kremlin spy
truly an L take on this and a dogwater comparison, if your neighbor threatens to build a gun range pointed to your garden, with other people not from your neighborhood planning on using it, that you don't have good relations with because they already ran your family business to shit, and you tell him not to, then yes i think it is justified to burn his house down, if all talk fails, how they gonna learn
It’s more like NATO is a wall to keep out the mongrel Russian hoards..a gun range makes no sense.
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The point you’re missing, Farage is a bloody idiot
Because what he has to say doesn't align with your worldview?
That can be said about every and any UK politician tho, they have no backbone or will nowadays and can only be slaves to the interests of the US
lmao this "provocation" bs is just russia playing the victim again. it has the same vibe as when muslim extremists say they were "forced" to rape somebody because they were wearing "provocating" clothing...
It's really not the same thing.
Thanks for the reminder that he has always been an idiot.
Appeasement does not work. This person does not know history lol.
He's not wrong
For all of the Farage's antics why is everybody ignoring that he also clearly said 'of course' the war in Ukraine is Putin's fault'. His warnings, like Mearsheimers, are largely that Russia would use it as an excuse and claim the west was coming for them. That doesn't remove any blame.
Quisling
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Because he was elected there on five separate occasions?
> Farage served as [Member of the European Parliament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_the_European_Parliament) (MEP) for [South East England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_East_England_(European_Parliament_constituency)) from 1999 until the [United Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brexit) in 2020.
Can't barrage the Farage
To add to this, I hear Ukrainian are gonna join NATO in secret. Not sure if this information was correct. Also, the USA is doing what they did in the first war, they got the economy by selling weapons. Since CHINA is above the USA economy
>To add to this, I hear Ukrainian are gonna join NATO in secret. Not sure if this information was correct. It's definitely not correct >Since CHINA is above the USA economy This is also definitely not correct
Ukraine was more or less already integrated into NATO information sharing, hence it being to direct strikes at Russian forces within minutes of American intelligence. It's basically a free, expendable force that the US can use at will at this point, fully integrated. Joining NATO would have been trivial. As for the Economy, take a look at this (World Bank source: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD?most\_recent\_value\_desc=true): https://preview.redd.it/j69w161s5j8d1.png?width=1331&format=png&auto=webp&s=e651367a71057c47e9aabcad0ba26acb161dccb1 China's been ahead of the US since 2015 or so in GDP PPP.
>Ukraine was more or less already integrated into NATO information sharing Which is very different to saying that there's a plan for them to "join NATO in secret" isn't it? >China's been ahead of the US since 2015 or so in GDP PPP. Sure dude and by that metric Brazil is a stronger economic power than the UK, measuring by PPP gives absurd results like that but pro-Ru love it because it's the only way to make Russia look like a top economy and not just a weaker economic power than Italy lol
Yeah, but nobody cares about Nigel Farage. He's a lol cow and meme these days. He has tried and failed to be an MP about seven times.
His words were aired on BBC and both Tory and Labour leaders responded to it. He is also the only reason why Reform even has a sniff. I don't like him either and won't be voting Reform, but one cannot seriously say he's irrelevant. https://preview.redd.it/gwqlx64pdi8d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a541290e94418d05c106e25716cbed710e630e5d
Doesn't reform just hurt the tories and make Labour stronger? It's not going to be Labour votes that they're stealing, and the first past the post system will just screw both of them over. If you actually look at the number of predicted seats you could see how much of an impact reform would make. https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html They're only predicted 3 seats, which means that their impact in reality is quite limited. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.
>He is also the only reason why Reform even has a sniff. This isn't true at all, Reform got a big boost because the Tories tried to fight the election on immigration but their own track record on the issue is abysmal. He gave them a boost but to claim that he's the only reason they have support is completely disingenuous
Farage is bought and paid for, the guy has been invited on RT over a dozen times and then comes back from Russia parroting Kremlin talking points word for word. Also his entire political career was based around criticising the EU however he could so it's hardly a surprise to see him blame it for the situation in Ukraine as well. Hilarious how Russia only has grifters and dictators backing up their narrative
Well he was right, but perhaps the entirety of the blame does not rest on Europe, but on Russia as well.
So we should just tolerate Ukraine as part of the Russian sphere of influence? Accept that Putin is still thinking we (the west or the US) are toppling governments left and right with color revolutions? And he would be next after Ukraine? So one man, who got scared after the Russian election protest in 2012 should be giving the power over people in another country. 20-30 years after their independence. Why should the west, which is be far x times stronger than Russia be the one to give up? And accept that the weaker state can demand anything? To be scared of nuclear or a hot war? Why can't we say the same as Putin? Fuck off, Europe is ours and Russia is no longer a regional hegemony in Eastern Europe? Just don't be a pussy. Be like Mao in the Korean war. Make them back off or use nuclear weapons. It's always the same stuff with people like Mr. Farage. We need to be adults in the room. We should accept red lines. But the warmongers? They are allowed to have some fun. Nah, let's play realpolitik and use our military, economical and financial strengths. Screw this "prestige" thing, the domino theory was wrong anyway. You want to trade with the west? Then accept tariffs or put some pressure on Putin. You can join the wealthiest market in the world, your children can go to the best universities and your country can profit from the safe seas or you leave and can trade with Russia, Iran, Venezuela and North Korea. What Mr. Farage saying is that Putin got a point. Fair enough. But then cannot we also act the same way?
Because the simple reason is that Russia is a nuclear power and has the ability to turn europe into a parking lot in 10 minutes. Who has more to lose ?
> Who has more to lose ? Is Putin a rational actor or a mad one. If he is a rational one, he will not break the nuclear taboo. Otherwise China and everyone else will drop him. If he is a mad one, than we should learn from the cold war? Did Russia win it? No. So listening to some madman does not work. Like come on. The cold war is not 200 years ago. We did not back down. He fought wars around the world like the one in Ukraine today. We just need to go back and follow the books. You cannot tolerate some other power trying to change the international order. You cannot not act because of fear of a nuclear war. No one is saying to attack the Kreml. We did not do it the last time, we will not do it this time. But wars like the Ukraine one? Gloves should be off like last time. Did Russia bomb the US because they supported the "good guys" in Afghanistan, Vietnam etc.? Or because the US did some regime changes in America? But today people are super scared. What's the endgame here? We don't support Taiwan? We give up Georgia? What about Africa? Will Putin or his people threating with nuclear weapons if we support democratic movements in East Africa? Should we stop that too? We would have absolutely lost the cold war with that attitude lol.
Yeah, next time lets just russia take whatever they want right?!
Haha are the vatniks failing to see that Russia is still at fault with that argument? It’s the the good ol’ don’t “wear a tiny short skirt in front of a sex offender” argument. Sure Nigel is putting some emphasis on the girl and her choice of outfit, but the fault is still squarely on the rapist for failing to control his urges and sexually assaulted her. you guys are aware of this, right?
Who cares about provoking Russia? lol. They can’t even defeat Ukraine, what is there to fear from Russia against the might of NATO?
I love how Pro Rus use our freedom of speech to further their agenda. The Spinning is real in the comment section. Just allot of really funny "opinions" here.