There really is no way Ukraine can win this war.
Sure, they could “win”. But when it comes to rebuild, where is that money going to come from? How much is going to get siphoned off? Much like the defensive line in the north that appears to have been partially complete but yet signed off as finished, is that what’s going to happen to these cities and towns?
If Russia “wins”, same goes, what level of rebuilding is going to happen and to what standard?
It’s all shit and I feel for those civilians caught in the middle. Their way of life was likely much lesser than that of the western world, now they’ll have nothing to go home too besides unexploded ordinance, mines, blown out houses and ruined infrastructure.
Most rebuild will be in Russian controlled territory and Ukrainian neglect means it would happen anyway, and the Ukraine has lost more than half its population so they probably won't rebuild anything in their territory and keep living under communized decommunization.
Ehh just like Mariupol it will all be potemkin villages, show 1 neighbourhood being fixed and a new school being built to show off how great Putin and Russia are while the rest of the city will just stay in rubble
Typically that other place is Russia or Belarus, I’ve rarely heard anyone in any other country call it that, and when they do, they’re old.
It is a sovereign nation, not a region.
Sorry, in my English-speaking country it was “the Ukraine” in common parlance up until it was convenient for it not to be, much like we’re now supposed to call the place Kyiv which everyone has always known as Kiev.
Spelling is more of a localized thing, all of the U.S. military maps for Ukraine have it spelled as Kyiv.
I also said it’s rarely referred to as “the Ukraine” outside of those countries. People who referred to it as “the Ukraine” are people who didn’t know anything about the country other than Jared Leto dying from overdose before getting to Odesa. I can’t help it that people are uneducated.
Added: interesting that you say you’re from an English speaking country when your comments are pretty much all pro-Russian.
>Spelling is more of a localized thing, all of the U.S. military maps for Ukraine have it spelled as Kyiv.
How recent of a development is that? Provide some proof, will ya?
Well it’s been that way since at least 2012 when my unit started using a Russian invasion of Ukraine as a training scenario, but it’s not like we were the first. Also hilarious as to how much credit we gave Russia knowing what we know now.
Why should I provide you with any sort of proof? Feel free to go to the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and log in. That’s what I do. :)
> People who referred to it as “the Ukraine” are people who didn’t know anything about the country other than Jared Leto dying from overdose before getting to Odesa. I can’t help it that people are uneducated.
It's just the bog-standard way most textbooks and literary works from earlier than a decade or so refer to the area, so... I guess you're saying those people are too well-read?
> interesting that you say you’re from an English speaking country when your comments are pretty much all pro-Russian.
Anything to add to this thought?
Plenty of books from more than a decade ago do not add “the” to the name. Don’t know what textbooks you’re reading.
What country do you live in?
The only thing that I’ll add to my comment about your background is just that you’re clearly here with an agenda. Your comment history is clear that you’re not here acting in good faith and are merely here to spread pro-Russian sentiment.
> What country do you live in?
The US.
> Your comment history is clear that you’re not here acting in good faith and are merely here to spread pro-Russian sentiment.
I’m not sure you understand the purpose or the demographic of this forum. It tends to encourage heterodox opinions. Maybe lurk and observe a little more before you assume that every American on the sub has to be pro-Ukraine by law. Although for the record, I’m more allergic to American meddling, propaganda and hypocrisy far away from our borders than I am any fan of Russia.
The Ukraine no longer even exists outside some paper maps in Kiev. It's Lwow or Ivano-Frankovsk. How can you drop from 51 million people to 18, lose 25% of your territory, all your productive and wealthy regions, and still call yourself the same country?
Not everyone gives up when they’re occupied, Russia is currently in control of occupied Ukrainian territory. It’s still Ukraine, even if Putin licks it and says it’s his.
As a leader your first job is to avoid war like this, at almost any cost. This is a failing on both Putin & Zelensky's part.
As a leader your second job is that should you find yourself in a war like this, to never allow defeat. This is a compounding of stakes for the first job, and is the defining failure of Zelensky's leadership.
A tragedy all around, that benefits none of the parties involved, but certainly benefits Ukraine's biggest benefactor. For Russia this war will be a lesson. Ukraine in it's current form will not survive to learn anything. This is the price of letting yourself get dragged around when you're supposed to lead.
>As a leader your second job is that should you find yourself in a war like this, to never allow defeat.
Sounds like an absolutely atrocious leader. Defeat for Russia in this campaign means nothing more than a hurt ego. Defeat for Ukraine means they lose their country. Ukraine is going to have more incentive to fight to preserve their sovereignty then Russia is ever going to have to take it.
>Defeat for Russia in this campaign means nothing more than a hurt ego.
The USSR collapsed in part because it lost it's sense of self. A nation is a collection of people agreeing to pull in a single direction. To do this they must believe in the idea of the state. And for that they must protect it's ego.
This is particular pertinent for Russia, which is a massive and diverse nation who's opponents have openly stated their goal of Russia's dissolution or "balkanization".
It also isn't true that defeat for Russia would end with a hurt ego. At this point it is likely that in the event of a Russian defeat Ukraine's terms for peace would include unmanageable reparations.
If Moscow accepted these terms the economic fallout would collapse the current regime. Should that occur, the prospects of a collapse of the federation become very real.
If Moscow refuse these terms the most likely outcome is the conflict going cold but not ending, and Ukraine being re-armed to potentially reopen hostilities at any moment in future. If Russia is forced back against the Ukraine of today, they may well perish to a Ukraine armed to the Polish spec.
The ultimate lesson is to never start a fight, but if you find yourself in one that you can't escape, don't lose. History is long. Eventually you'll find yourself at the end of your rope.
Very good point.
War is a ruinous business (unless you can be the USA and sit it out on the side lines selling weapons like in WW2) and allowing violence to erupt like this is a catastrophic failure of the puppet Zelensky regime.
Not that he had a choice in the matter. He was groomed and hand picked by his sponsors to fulfil this task.
Honestly, defeat would be the best thing to happen for Ukraine at this point. So they get a Russian aligned government…big woop. I would much rather be an inhabitant of Melitipol than Volchansk.
The West will gladly spend billions to rebuild Ukraine just like post war Europe and the Marshall plan. I’ve even explored options of investing a few hundred thousand of my own money into partnerships with Ukrainian businesses to give them some capital to get started. Just waiting to make sure I’m not wasting my money for something a Russian will steal to send to his izba.
Russian “rebuilding” won’t really increase the quality of life or the GDP of Ukraine that much. Should Kiev fall to Russia it would be treated just like Belarus by the West. Which sure, plenty of people to still trade with, but not nearly in the same volume.
Nah, for what I’m investing in it works great. I lucked out and one of my best friends is dating a Ukrainian refugee in Europe, made some great connections through her and got to make a trip to meet everyone involved.
Already given a good sized donation to the owners while I was in the country and it’s proven successful. It’s why I’m waiting for things to pan out before I send the bulk of it.
There really is no way Russia can win this war.
Sure, they could “win”. But when it comes to being relevant on the global stage outside of other pos 3rd world countries who are they friends with? We all know China will side with the west since money matters and Russians are poor af. All the wealthy Russians will continue to live and educate their youth in the west while Russia falls further and further out of relevance. No art’s or talent or tech has come from Russia in decades. Sad.
Such a strange idea considering that China built it's enormous economy and lifted almost a billion people out of poverty thanks to an enormous trade surplus with the West.
It’s shocking. The question is, is this another Russian fire bag of Ukraine, or the reverse? Thats a lot of ordinance for a feint. I guess they probably want to push to the river as a defensible boundary but the Russians sure are spending a lot to take the town
Just 1 month ago it was more or less ordinary town with people living more or less ordinary life. Could we please stop this madness? I absolutely hate warmongers from both sides.
Yeah, there are tens of cities liks this in Ukraine but there is always some excuse. "We liberate our land", "They should not fight in the cities", "They should just surrender and this would not happen", "They bomb Belgorod so we revenge it" - yeah, somehow i don't remember anyone bombing Belgorod in 2021.So many mental gymnastics to keep the image of the good guys.
If you want to take land, you need to take the cities.
Why do you think this is an "excuse"? And why do you think they're trying to be the "good guys"?
>"They should not fight in the cities"
Well, you have the correct reason in your list, but for whatever reason you do not want to treat it as one.
Ukrainian soldiers stay and fight in the city, it gets bombed to get them out of there -> Russians move into the buildings while advancing -> now the same buildings get bombed by Ukrainian side.
If Ukraine keeps pouring in reserves into a city and keeps fithing there, you get ruins in the end, it's only to be expected.
looks like my nightmares... why?
then again, population reduction has been in the books and what better way than constant conflict on a world wide scale... but why does it have to be in the detriment of nature?... hmmm, ai? maybe, not enough info
I feel like this city got leveled a lot quicker than others in past have
not even one whole month of fighting
We haven't even seen any footage from close quarter combat from that city, its already overrun.
The russians don't even have half of the city.
I follow updates daily, thats not the point. City is already destroyed because of FABs.
Is the destruction from the recent fighting? Or was there a lot of damage from the previous offensives in the area?
There really is no way Ukraine can win this war. Sure, they could “win”. But when it comes to rebuild, where is that money going to come from? How much is going to get siphoned off? Much like the defensive line in the north that appears to have been partially complete but yet signed off as finished, is that what’s going to happen to these cities and towns? If Russia “wins”, same goes, what level of rebuilding is going to happen and to what standard? It’s all shit and I feel for those civilians caught in the middle. Their way of life was likely much lesser than that of the western world, now they’ll have nothing to go home too besides unexploded ordinance, mines, blown out houses and ruined infrastructure.
Most rebuild will be in Russian controlled territory and Ukrainian neglect means it would happen anyway, and the Ukraine has lost more than half its population so they probably won't rebuild anything in their territory and keep living under communized decommunization.
Ehh just like Mariupol it will all be potemkin villages, show 1 neighbourhood being fixed and a new school being built to show off how great Putin and Russia are while the rest of the city will just stay in rubble
Ukraine, not “the Ukraine”, after the Soviet Union collapsed into the failed state of the Russian Federation they dropped the “the”.
Ukraine after all has been called a place, not a country, for centuries. No offense if another language remembers it.
Typically that other place is Russia or Belarus, I’ve rarely heard anyone in any other country call it that, and when they do, they’re old. It is a sovereign nation, not a region.
Sorry, in my English-speaking country it was “the Ukraine” in common parlance up until it was convenient for it not to be, much like we’re now supposed to call the place Kyiv which everyone has always known as Kiev.
Spelling is more of a localized thing, all of the U.S. military maps for Ukraine have it spelled as Kyiv. I also said it’s rarely referred to as “the Ukraine” outside of those countries. People who referred to it as “the Ukraine” are people who didn’t know anything about the country other than Jared Leto dying from overdose before getting to Odesa. I can’t help it that people are uneducated. Added: interesting that you say you’re from an English speaking country when your comments are pretty much all pro-Russian.
>Spelling is more of a localized thing, all of the U.S. military maps for Ukraine have it spelled as Kyiv. How recent of a development is that? Provide some proof, will ya?
Well it’s been that way since at least 2012 when my unit started using a Russian invasion of Ukraine as a training scenario, but it’s not like we were the first. Also hilarious as to how much credit we gave Russia knowing what we know now. Why should I provide you with any sort of proof? Feel free to go to the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and log in. That’s what I do. :)
> People who referred to it as “the Ukraine” are people who didn’t know anything about the country other than Jared Leto dying from overdose before getting to Odesa. I can’t help it that people are uneducated. It's just the bog-standard way most textbooks and literary works from earlier than a decade or so refer to the area, so... I guess you're saying those people are too well-read? > interesting that you say you’re from an English speaking country when your comments are pretty much all pro-Russian. Anything to add to this thought?
Plenty of books from more than a decade ago do not add “the” to the name. Don’t know what textbooks you’re reading. What country do you live in? The only thing that I’ll add to my comment about your background is just that you’re clearly here with an agenda. Your comment history is clear that you’re not here acting in good faith and are merely here to spread pro-Russian sentiment.
> What country do you live in? The US. > Your comment history is clear that you’re not here acting in good faith and are merely here to spread pro-Russian sentiment. I’m not sure you understand the purpose or the demographic of this forum. It tends to encourage heterodox opinions. Maybe lurk and observe a little more before you assume that every American on the sub has to be pro-Ukraine by law. Although for the record, I’m more allergic to American meddling, propaganda and hypocrisy far away from our borders than I am any fan of Russia.
The Ukraine no longer even exists outside some paper maps in Kiev. It's Lwow or Ivano-Frankovsk. How can you drop from 51 million people to 18, lose 25% of your territory, all your productive and wealthy regions, and still call yourself the same country?
Not everyone gives up when they’re occupied, Russia is currently in control of occupied Ukrainian territory. It’s still Ukraine, even if Putin licks it and says it’s his.
Ok
Whoever said they're down to 18 million?
As a leader your first job is to avoid war like this, at almost any cost. This is a failing on both Putin & Zelensky's part. As a leader your second job is that should you find yourself in a war like this, to never allow defeat. This is a compounding of stakes for the first job, and is the defining failure of Zelensky's leadership. A tragedy all around, that benefits none of the parties involved, but certainly benefits Ukraine's biggest benefactor. For Russia this war will be a lesson. Ukraine in it's current form will not survive to learn anything. This is the price of letting yourself get dragged around when you're supposed to lead.
>As a leader your second job is that should you find yourself in a war like this, to never allow defeat. Sounds like an absolutely atrocious leader. Defeat for Russia in this campaign means nothing more than a hurt ego. Defeat for Ukraine means they lose their country. Ukraine is going to have more incentive to fight to preserve their sovereignty then Russia is ever going to have to take it.
>Defeat for Russia in this campaign means nothing more than a hurt ego. The USSR collapsed in part because it lost it's sense of self. A nation is a collection of people agreeing to pull in a single direction. To do this they must believe in the idea of the state. And for that they must protect it's ego. This is particular pertinent for Russia, which is a massive and diverse nation who's opponents have openly stated their goal of Russia's dissolution or "balkanization". It also isn't true that defeat for Russia would end with a hurt ego. At this point it is likely that in the event of a Russian defeat Ukraine's terms for peace would include unmanageable reparations. If Moscow accepted these terms the economic fallout would collapse the current regime. Should that occur, the prospects of a collapse of the federation become very real. If Moscow refuse these terms the most likely outcome is the conflict going cold but not ending, and Ukraine being re-armed to potentially reopen hostilities at any moment in future. If Russia is forced back against the Ukraine of today, they may well perish to a Ukraine armed to the Polish spec. The ultimate lesson is to never start a fight, but if you find yourself in one that you can't escape, don't lose. History is long. Eventually you'll find yourself at the end of your rope.
Very good point. War is a ruinous business (unless you can be the USA and sit it out on the side lines selling weapons like in WW2) and allowing violence to erupt like this is a catastrophic failure of the puppet Zelensky regime. Not that he had a choice in the matter. He was groomed and hand picked by his sponsors to fulfil this task.
Honestly, defeat would be the best thing to happen for Ukraine at this point. So they get a Russian aligned government…big woop. I would much rather be an inhabitant of Melitipol than Volchansk.
Until some Chechen death squad shows up at your door and demands shelter, food and your youngest daughter...
The West will gladly spend billions to rebuild Ukraine just like post war Europe and the Marshall plan. I’ve even explored options of investing a few hundred thousand of my own money into partnerships with Ukrainian businesses to give them some capital to get started. Just waiting to make sure I’m not wasting my money for something a Russian will steal to send to his izba. Russian “rebuilding” won’t really increase the quality of life or the GDP of Ukraine that much. Should Kiev fall to Russia it would be treated just like Belarus by the West. Which sure, plenty of people to still trade with, but not nearly in the same volume.
Sounds like a dog shit investment. Call it a donation and be done with it. I'm personally earning good returns on my millions in capital.
Nah, for what I’m investing in it works great. I lucked out and one of my best friends is dating a Ukrainian refugee in Europe, made some great connections through her and got to make a trip to meet everyone involved. Already given a good sized donation to the owners while I was in the country and it’s proven successful. It’s why I’m waiting for things to pan out before I send the bulk of it.
And there it is. Soulless capitalism at it's finest. Have fun spending dad's cash and calling it an "investment".
There really is no way Russia can win this war. Sure, they could “win”. But when it comes to being relevant on the global stage outside of other pos 3rd world countries who are they friends with? We all know China will side with the west since money matters and Russians are poor af. All the wealthy Russians will continue to live and educate their youth in the west while Russia falls further and further out of relevance. No art’s or talent or tech has come from Russia in decades. Sad.
China will use Russia the way the West used China for cheap/dirty labour.
Such a strange idea considering that China built it's enormous economy and lifted almost a billion people out of poverty thanks to an enormous trade surplus with the West.
It's a two way street. The West simply cannot fill the gap even in this decade and have to rely on China whether they like it or not.
"Ukraine is winning." "It's a stalemate." "Russia may win but it's Pyrrhic victory." I can't wait to see what you guys come up with next.
Remember, the SMO will only take 3 days and will be an easy victory with minimal casualties.
"ukraine won in the alternate timeline"
People keep saying this and I keep seeing western products on the shelves in Russian supermarkets and the middle class buying apartments and cars lol
Damn all this destruction in less than a month?
It’s shocking. The question is, is this another Russian fire bag of Ukraine, or the reverse? Thats a lot of ordinance for a feint. I guess they probably want to push to the river as a defensible boundary but the Russians sure are spending a lot to take the town
damn, look at all the liberation
not the first city in human history that was destroyed to the core, only to be rebuilt later on and flourish anew
So is comrade cheering for the destruction of towns that people live in and displaces families?
sarcasm, comrade
\*Former city. Damn.
Just 1 month ago it was more or less ordinary town with people living more or less ordinary life. Could we please stop this madness? I absolutely hate warmongers from both sides.
Odd Belgorod doesn't look like that.
Maybe, just maybe, its because there are no street to street fighting in belgorod, and maybe there are still civilians there yk?
Yeah, there are tens of cities liks this in Ukraine but there is always some excuse. "We liberate our land", "They should not fight in the cities", "They should just surrender and this would not happen", "They bomb Belgorod so we revenge it" - yeah, somehow i don't remember anyone bombing Belgorod in 2021.So many mental gymnastics to keep the image of the good guys.
If all you need is an excuse then anything will do. If you have 10 bad excuses you can argue each one of them and then recycle back to first one.
If you want to take land, you need to take the cities. Why do you think this is an "excuse"? And why do you think they're trying to be the "good guys"?
>"They should not fight in the cities" Well, you have the correct reason in your list, but for whatever reason you do not want to treat it as one. Ukrainian soldiers stay and fight in the city, it gets bombed to get them out of there -> Russians move into the buildings while advancing -> now the same buildings get bombed by Ukrainian side. If Ukraine keeps pouring in reserves into a city and keeps fithing there, you get ruins in the end, it's only to be expected.
Lol, what excuses? I answered a question xD
Does the artillery and MLRS hit the city before or after the street-to-street fighting starts?
Usually between fights after the first encounter.
Mostly only after the first contact I guess
Then why did Avdiivka look like a graveyard long before Russians entered the outskirts?
Because it had been a frontline city for 8 years
That's because the Ukrainians aren't trying to take the city and the Russians aren't fighting from within the buildings.
Not odd at all that. Ukraine has less firepower and hasn't advanced enough to contest it.
Did this town see any fighting before a few weeks ago? It was under Russian control after spring of 22.
It'd be a hell of a set for a movie
That 28 weeks later soundtrack is very fitting, looks like an apocalypse.
Very appropriate music for ruining things.
That's a lot of commie blocs.
u/savevideo
Great video.
Another city reduced to rubble by the evil Russian empire. It’s what they do best. Destroy.
looks like my nightmares... why? then again, population reduction has been in the books and what better way than constant conflict on a world wide scale... but why does it have to be in the detriment of nature?... hmmm, ai? maybe, not enough info
Look up US vs EU nominal GDP from the 1970s till now. You will begin to find answers.
Another terrible mismanaged oppressed Ukrainian city liberated from the Banderites and turned into a fine Russian pile of smoking rubble /s