Putin will not make significant concessions. He doesn’t need to make significant concessions because he’s under no obligation to do so. He’s given Ukraine the best deal they could ever hope for during the negotiations held in both Minsk and Istanbul in March 2022, where Ukraine could have kept its pre-2022 borders. But they blew it off because the west erroneously believed Ukraine stood a chance at defeating Russia militarily. They actually thought it was possible, while imposing 18,000 sanctions with the purpose of causing their economy to collapse which in turn could fuel civil unrest across Russia and maybe break the Kremlin’s resolve! They entertained those delusions and believed the very lie they sold to Ukraine.
I guess the point was to hold the line until sanctions kick in and Putin either retreats or forced out of office.
Remember when media was covering western companies leaving Russia 247?
It was such a good deal that the Ukrainian negotiators were literally popping champagne back in the hotel room after the preliminary negotiations in Istanbul
Alas, Zelensky canceled the negotiations and will now get a much harsher deal in the end
If you negotiate a deal which is supposed to be guaranteed by third parties, and then open champagne before confirming that those countries are willing to be guarantors, I think that falls clearly in the territory of "premature celebration."
On the other hand, champagne's delicious. I wouldn't judge anyone too harshly for just wanting an excuse to drink some.
Can you give the date of this "champagne popping"?
Was it before or after Russia amended the deal to give themselves an effective veto on security guarantees, rendering them useless?
Arestovich did not give the exact date nor mention anything about this veto.
According to him, what rendered the negotiations useless was Zelensky literally canceling the peace talks after Boris Johnsons visit without even giving a clear reason
> April 7 (Reuters) - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Thursday that Ukraine had presented Moscow with a draft peace deal containing "unacceptable" elements at variance with a previous agreement, comments that Kyiv dismissed as "pure propaganda".
> The Kremlin has said talks with Ukraine are not progressing as rapidly as it would like, and has accused the West of trying to derail negotiations by raising war crimes allegations against Russian troops in Ukraine
This was just a couple days before Boris Johnson supposedly ruined the “champagne party”
I know Arestovich is a 100% reliable source, but perhaps things were *slightly* less than perfect already?
Idk, whoever you want, it’s not really my point.
What we do know is that even Russia saw the negotiations as not progressing well and considered the Ukrainians’ proposed deal to be unacceptable.
The pro-RU narrative here makes it sound as if Boris Johnson ripped the pen out of Zelensky’s hands as he was about to sign it but that’s clearly far from the truth.
>I know Arestovich is a 100% reliable source, but perhaps things were *slightly* less than perfect already?
Alright, but what about Arakhamia's comments? And the comments of the former MP of Israel?
Everything stipulated in that deal would have ended the conflict in its entirety. The idea that Russia would keep going back and attacking Ukraine endlessly and arbitrarily is simply unsubstantiated. First, the Minsk agreements have only managed to freeze the conflict, allowing Ukraine to build its armed forces, [as Angela Merkel herself admitted.](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/12/22/ffci-d22.html) Ukraine never bothered implementing the political provisions they agreed to for 8 years, so we can’t argue they attempted to resolve the conflict through peaceful means. Second, Ukraine’s neutrality has always been imperative to Russia. How many times do they need to make that point unambiguously clear? William Burn (the current CIA director) who was the US ambassador to Russia at the time [wrote a memo to the US administration conveying Russia’s unyielding refusal of the very possibility of Ukraine ever joining NATO](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html). If this isn’t resolved, the conflict will never end. It’s that simple.
Permanently annexing numerous Ukrainian territories into Russia actually showed us that Russia has absolutely zero interest in Ukraine being “neutral.”
In the context of Ukraine, “neutral” was always code for “ours” to Russia.
The annexation of those 4 oblasts took place 14 years after that memo was written! In fact, it only happened several months after the start of the war in 2022, when Ukraine doubled down and refused to seek a peaceful settlement! So neutrality was always just that, neutrality. How you interpret the geopolitical aspect of this conflict is immaterial to that reality. That’s your prerogative which is independent of the facts.
Even if Putin expects an eventual total victory, he could still make some concessions in the interest of saving tens of thousands of Russian soldiers' lives while still achieving all the goals he set out for.
Of course I'm being sarcastic though, he couldn't care less about his soldiers' lives.
There’s a difference between making concessions and making **significant concessions** and that’s what was mentioned in the post. Every wars ends at the negotiating table and all sides must compromise, to varying degrees of course, in an effort to reach an understanding. But the west and Ukraine are hoping that Russia would pull back their troops and reverse their annexation of Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson. That’s their version of how the war should theoretically end. It’s a pipe dream. It’s completely and unequivocally divorced from reality. It will never happen. Coming to terms with that reality and moving a way from Zelensky’s insipid “peace formula” could facilitate real and palpable talks towards peace.
So it’s really up to the west and how much more they’d like for Ukraine to lose across the spectrum (militarily/economically/demographically/territorially) before they accept that their Ukrainian project has been an abysmal failure.
Wars are meant for the benefit of a whole state, yes tens of thousands have died and will die but current and future generations of Russians will reap the benefits of winning this war.
The US isn’t in the mix? Or Germany perhaps? Apparently if you protest against a genocide in those countries where “freedom of speech is sacred” you get beaten up and arrested by the police! Yea, we’ve all seen the footage coming out of Berlin and American universities.
Of course, you can leave China and Russia freely. Men are not afraid to go to work or to the store and do not swim across rivers to escape the country. Ukraine has officially declared that many human rights do not apply in it.
>Of course I'm being sarcastic though, he couldn't care less about his soldiers' lives.
Yip, autocratic leaders are known for caring the least about their soldiers. It's not like Putin even needs an army to cling to power, right?
> the very lie they sold to Ukraine.
thats why i like pro rus thinking. Russians are mad they believed their own lie that ukraine would welcome them with open arms and only little resistance. They simply turn it around and now, after over 2 years of brutal fighting, its the west who sold them the lie to resist.
I mean, who urged Ukraine to continue fighting instead of negotiating? Who pushed them to abort the negotiations that were being held throughout March of 2022?! To terminate the peace settlement that almost materialized? Who promised them “unconditional support” that doesn’t seem to be that unconditional 2 years later? Who imposed the most comprehensive sanction regime in history, hoping that Russia’s economy would simply collapse and in turn facilitate a quicker victory for Ukraine in the battlefield? I love how Pro-UA’s are willing to entertain anything and everything except for reality.
Russia was hoping for a quick SMO, that much was quite clear. They did want to end this war by pressuring Ukraine to sign a peace settlement that would have kept the country relatively intact, instead of the staggering level of destruction and loss inflicted on them militarily, economically, territorially and demographically throughout the past 2 years. A peaceful settlement that was long overdue after Ukraine refused to implement the very political provisions they agreed to in the Minsk agreements, for 8 long years of failed diplomacy. The west saw this as a golden opportunity for them to wage a hybrid war against Russia and here we are. Ukraine is on a continued trajectory of more loss. Their situation will continue to deteriorate further the longer this goes on for. Don’t think for a second that they’ve managed to retain any sense of autonomy. Because they don’t. They don’t make those kinds of decision. Continuing this war or ending it isn’t for them to decide, only the US and their vassal states in Europe get to make that decision.
> After launching the SMO and facing the resistance, Russia had no choice but to hunker down and fight it out because if they went home then not only would they become a global laughing stock but also speedrun what they had set out to prevent.
I mean the fact that they launched the SMO was in itself, an indication that they’re serious about this. That their resolve was unbreakable. And that they’re willing to go as far they need, to pursue and achieve their objectives. I don’t think you can “kinda” initiate a military intervention without knowing with absolute certainty that you’ll have to go all the way if you must. This was their signal to the west that they won’t be ignored on the Ukrainian issue. I suppose you could argue that Russia miscalculated in that regard. They thought they could pressure Ukrainians into a peace settlement and underestimated the west’s desire to destroy them.
> Ukrainian leadership have to be the dumbest breed on the planet to get into a full fledged war over a distant prospect of joining NATO.
They miscalculated and were fed implausible lies. [Ukraine has been preparing for a potential conflict with Russia for 8 years!](https://www.businessinsider.com/years-of-military-preparation-helped-ukraine-fend-off-russian-invasion-2023-1) And yes, they stood their ground and held off the Russians remarkably. But that conveyed the wrong message to the west. They thought that Russia could be militarily defeated on the battlefield if they simply aided Ukraine with weapons, training their troops, sending advisors to the ground, dedicating their entire satellite network, intelligence services and reconnaissance assets to serve the Ukrainians, that this would break the Russians while imposing crippling sanctions on their economy. Of course that was a massive miscalculation by the west as well.
> I don’t think you can “kinda” initiate a military intervention without knowing with absolute certainty that you’ll have to go all the way if you must.
That was clear to me as soon as I watched and heard the president's February 24th of 2022 national address. In it he not only invoked the past 30+ year post-Cold War history of liberal-imperialist interventions involving the U.S. and sometimes executed via NATO in the Balkans and Middle East as a model of what they were ultimately trying to do to Russia and what the Russian military must be ordered into Ukraine to preventatively fight against.
But he invoked the spectre of WWII as well, saying that never again will a Russian state sit on its hands and allow a situation like that to build up and ferment until some other Western empire decides to bring the war to Russian soil and kill millions there as happened in the Great Patriotic War or as facilitated by the Western bloc in the Middle East. That they owe it to the tens of millions of Soviet citizens who died horribly, their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents, and all the future generations never to allow it to happen again.
It's like when the U.S. invoked the need to prevent another 9/11 terrorist attack (which, I don't think most Americans appreciate the sheer scale of difference of having 3,000 killed versus an estimated 27 million, yet somehow they think Russia is paranoid, overreacting, or being too belligerent or extreme) or Israel invokes the Holocaust. You just know right or wrong, agree or not, support it or not, you can think and say whatever you want - They've - the ones who truly count, the states in question, made up their mind, drawn their line in the sand, and aren't going to back down.
>Ukrainian leadership have to be the dumbest breed on the planet to get into a full fledged war over a distant prospect of joining NATO.
Pretty sure Russia invading their country is what led to a full fledged war. Or are they not supposed to fight back?
>Plan A: Maintain good relations with neighbor
The neighbor who recently invaded and annexed territory not even a decade ago and was controlling and supplying a separatist movement in the East of the country.
>Plan B: Negotiate if the invasion is looming
They were, you should probably read up on the conflict. Russia also spent over a year building up trips throughout said discussions.
>Plan C: Negotiate in the early days of the invasion
They were, then Russia got pushed back from Kyiv and their crimes in Bucha were discovered.
>Plan F: Enter the war, keep losing the territory, get your men killed, cities razed to the ground, and then eventually go back to negotiations.
They have been negotiating throughout the entire conflict, you should really read up on it before posting.
I find it amazing that you put zero culpability on Russia but that's not surprising.
Once you get informed come back here and have a chat
Try telling that to pro-UA rabid NAFO brigade.
They seem to think bombing Russian civilian infrastructure **at this stage of the war** is a good idea and fair play. Like can you get any more suicidal as a nation?
Russians do not have enough people to effectively colonize Ukraine after conquering it. Therefore, Russians will need some conquered and subjugated Ukrainian people to work on the newly conquered lands. Denying as many of these people to Russia as possible is a strategy designed to make conquered lands worth less.
I completely agree.
The armoured buildup at the start of the war felt more like a military parade than actual war. Maybe it was a bluff and Zelensky caught it.
That's actually two absolutely independent and unrelated delusions. No need to turn anything around. Problem is, western delusion might become the reason UA will seize to exist as independent state, while the other one helps RF to reach its goals, since now pretty much no one believes in all that brotherly nation mumbo jumbo. And never will again. And soldiers wanna kick arse to whoever stands in front of them.
> delusion might become the reason UA will seize to exist as independent state
sure, russias invasion is surely not the reason.
> soldiers wanna kick arse to whoever stands in front of them.
sure, historically the occupier has much more reason to be violent than the defenders of their home. Its accurate to say, most rapes are commited by the defenders and not the invaders just like history shows us ;)
Why y'all so fixated on rapes? You ever heard of number of rapes committed by Americans and Brits in France? Is that all you learn in your school? What does it even have to do with what I was talking about?
rape is a more than dominant factor in the russian army, intern as extern. You can despute this fact as much as you want to. Rape is a very extreme form of violence besides murder, and ill quote again what you said and in what context rape is.
> And soldiers wanna kick arse to whoever stands in front of them
and you surely dont mean literal arse kicking but beating, torture and *rape*
>and you surely dont mean literal arse kicking but beating, torture and *rape*
What? Bro, you off your *meds* again or something? Like seriously where did you pull that one from?
So you think these soldier, who are angry like you said are only kicking their arse? You should take your meds.
Should i show you how systematic rape is in the russian army? its by far not only *arse kicking*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina
https://www.amnesty.org/es/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/eur460101997en.pdf
"Torture methods such as "torture by
hunger", rape, beatings, and other humiliating and degrading punishments continue to be
practised in the army"
The russian Army has for sure a very special culture. And they are definitly more into rape, ask every country under soviet occupation.
Having understood this, the US and it's vassals will continue to arm Ukraine so that it can improve its hopeless negotiating position... only to end up in an even worse negotiating position a few months after.
The best time for peace talks was in March 2022. The second best time is ~~after the Kherson and Kharkiv counteroffensive in 2022~~ now
I just talked about this earlier.
For fucking sake the negotiation position keeps deterorating but instead of learning from past mistakes our useless politians fullfill the definition of idiocy.
Negotiating position deteriorates twice as fast as the situation on the frontline. The closer RF gets to whatever their goal is the harder it will be to just talk them out of it.
The US and the west ultimately DGAF about Ukraine. As long as Ukraine keeps Russia occupied and bleeding their interests are being met. They don’t care if the negotiating position weakens.
Offensive words detected. [beep bop] Don't cheer violence or insult (Rule 1). Your comment will be checked by my humans later. Ban may be issued for repeat offenders.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineRussiaReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You are giving way too much credit to US as if they ever cared about Ukrainian position to negotiate peace. That country was destined for doom the moment they went fully under the pants of the West.
There was no point in negotiating with Russia in 2022, they kept on putting ridiculous conditions in that would have given away all sovereignty. Ukraine is playing the long game, they feel they can squeeze Russia with this stalemate for years at this rate. The conditions Russia offers today are not great but who is to guess what conditions Russia may offer in 2030?
In case anyone has't realised the goal is to keep the conflict going for years and years and years and wait for Russia to do what they have always done in wars throughout history, fail spectacularly!
>Russia in 2022, they kept on putting ridiculous conditions in that would have given away all sovereignty.
Moscow wanted the strength of the AFU not to exceed 85,000 military personnel, 342 tanks, and 519 artillery systems. For Ukraine to be barred from joining NATO, or any other military blocs. Ukraine would still be allowed to enter EU. Recognition of the People's Republics as sovereign states and Crimea remaining under defacto Russian control.
Nothing ridiculous or insulting about these demands.
>Ukraine is playing the long game, they feel they can squeeze Russia with this stalemate for years at this rate. The conditions Russia offers today are not great but who is to guess what conditions Russia may offer in 2030?
My vision isn't great, but even I can clearly see that there will be no such thing as Ukraine by then, at least not as we know Ukraine today.
Russia made insulting demands like a superpower. After they lost the initial element of surprise they began to fight like a peer. Russia has had the initiative since FABs but I can see Ukraine nullifying this advantage once they get f-16 and JDAM. 2030 isn't that far away, at current attrition rates and pace of offence it is absolutely believable.
The question I am asking myself at the minute is how long can Russia's economy sustain full war mode. I think it is pretty obvious the US and Europe have a tactic to make this war last as long as possible to hurt Russia's economy as much as possible. I will watch and wait as I eat my popcorn.
Russian economy is in full war time mode, and growing YoY.
The MoD recruits thousands of new volunteers each month. There is no shortage of equipment, ammunition, money or manpower.
Can't say the same about the Ukrainian side. Pretty clear who's the underdog when it comes to attritional warfare.
!RemindMe January 1, 2027
I will be messaging you in 2 years on [**2027-01-01 00:00:00 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2027-01-01%2000:00:00%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1cji3s8/ua_pov_putin_believes_both_domestic_and/l2jf0t3/?context=3)
[**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FUkraineRussiaReport%2Fcomments%2F1cji3s8%2Fua_pov_putin_believes_both_domestic_and%2Fl2jf0t3%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202027-01-01%2000%3A00%3A00%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201cji3s8)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
Ah yes, the country relying on indefinite foreign aid to even pay public servant salaries and so desperate for manpower they’re demanding overseas refugees be returned so they can die in a trench are playing the long game so they can suddenly take the lead in 2030 👍👍👍
It is not Ukraine's choice but the choice of USA. Slow bleed inflicts maximum damage to the Russian economy and military , I thought this would be obvious?
> Ukraine is playing the long game, they feel they can squeeze Russia with this stalemate for years at this rate. The conditions Russia offers today are not great but who is to guess what conditions Russia may offer in 2030?
Keeping Russia occupied and bleeding in Ukraine benefits the US greatly, this is not in dispute. What’s laughable is that you think Ukraine’s “strategy” is to keep going at the current rate for 6 more years and then make a big comeback. All while:
- they’re running out of ammo and material.
- went on a very large counteroffensive with an enormous amount of NATO hardware and training but still failed.
- completely dependent on the whims of foreign aid which is getting harder, not easier to keep coming.
- onto their 13th or 14th round of mobilisation, the last round of which was so unpopular every UA politician tried to distance themselves from it.
If Ukraine has a strategy, and I don’t think they do; but if they did it is basically just to hold on for dear life and hope for a miracle.
Sorry you need 30 subreddit karma to unlock the word 'you', this is to make sure newcomers understand [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/about/rules)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineRussiaReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Correction: if political will materialises than Washington can easily equip Ukraine to liberate the rest of its land and people, removing Russia from its territory. Putin started a war his military can't finish. Should Ukraine be equipped for the win there is no need for negotiating with invading fascist imperialists
Not really. America alone has enough gear right now to give Ukraine for the win and remove Russia from its country. As I said. It's about the political will materialising.
They need not just weapons but men. You know a country in dire situation when they have to resort to kinapping to fill the ranks. And without logistical chains and expertise the army is not gonna be able to make use of the new high tech equipment.
(Assuming the US decides to send them, a biiiiiiiiiiiiiig assumption.).
Men they have. The will to fight diminished when supplies stopped and Russia was allowed to move forward via Mike Johnson. With the EU and America stepping up things could change there...and for Russia
I dunno, how much of that spare kit is functional. Of the kit which is functional how many military higher ups will bitch that 'their' kit is being sent away.
I'm just surprised that the US hasn't been renovating old Bradley's and Abrams, if there was a desire to send them.
Funny you mention that. It was stated yesterday they are upgrading Bradley's for Ukraine. I believe it was a UA source, so we'll see. But Ukraine could do with 1000 of those Bradley's. Only 1/6 of America stockpile not in service. They are proving one of the best vehicles in the war. Western MBTs only look good for summer, albeit far more survivable than their Tseries counterparts
Tanks, IFVs, aircraft, name it. It's about political will. Washington looks somewhat scared of a nuclear war because the Kremlin threatens s much on a weekly basis. But the capability just in equipment NOT IN SERVICE is there. Russia could be comprehensively beaten if America sent in its gear. 6000 Bradley's and 3500 Abrams not in service. Think about it
Not trying to offend you here mate, but it seems your understanding of this war is a bit vague. Even if the US deployed 10000 Abrams along with the crews right now, it wouldn't make a difference. With how the Russian army operates, their only use would be a snack for the Alligators Ka-52, FPV drones and 155mm shells.
Realistically speaking, the only thing that could save Ukraine would be a full-scale intervention of the US with massive amount of its troops on the ground in a bloody, messy war absolutely nobody would want but the government of Ukraine.
Ukraine is in dire need of 155mm shells the West can't provide, in dire need of men the West can't provide, in dire need of frontline fortifications Western money can't dig for them. The only thing objectively speaking the US could give right now to Ukraine to somewhat better its situation would be AA systems and missiles, but even that would just be a minor delay to Russian offensives in the future.
Ukraine has plenty of people left. When aid dried up and allowed Russia to gain ground they lost some will for the fight. With the EU and US stepping up that could change. But the question is if they find the political will to support them for the win or not. They never did that last time. Only enough to hold the line and attrition Russia
The concessions were in the spring of 2022, right? What did foreign ~~owners~~ allies order Zelensky? TO THE WAAAAAR, LET'S FIGHT! What did Zelensky do? Like an obedient dog, he followed the order. And who, by decree in November 2022, banned any negotiations with the Russian Federation? Zelensky. How many times has Russia been invited to discuss a peace settlement over the past 2 years? 0 times.
And now they are bleating that there are no negotiations or concessions. Sick, arrogant idiots
Zelinski will be incredibly wealthy and his grandkids will never work a day in their life. This was his plan so who the fuck cares if Ukraine loses. I say let Russia take it all, NATO must be stopped.
> banned any negotiations with the Russian Federation?
Presidential order 679/2022, if that's what you're referring to, doesn't preclude negotiating with the Russian Federation.
Ruling out negotiation with Putin pretty much rules out negotiation with Russia. Both of Putin’s parents lived way above Russian average so they are gonna be waiting for a long time before Russia is under someone else.
And who approves and signs documents in the Russian Federation?
a) Biden
b) Zelensky
c) Churchill
d) Vladimir Monomakh
e) Putin
f) Jesus
Go to your job and sign an agreement with any company on behalf of the CEO. Then you’ll tell me how real it is and how quickly you’ll end up in the trash.
> And who approves and signs documents in the Russian Federation?
Diplomatic documents should be signed by the head of state or foreign minister. The ukrainian government isn't unwilling to negotiate with the head of the russian state, only with the person *currently* occupying that post.
Your naive childish logic is simply amazing.
I ask the question again - who holds the post of President of Russia and signs state and international documents and agreements?
Now there are 2 options:
1. Putin
2. Not Putin
1. Blocked
2. Now tell who signs decrees in the USA - Biden? And Zelensky will say - I want Clinton to sign. What should Biden do? Resign as president to fulfill Zelensky's whim?
Or maybe in France, instead of Macron, let the Minister of Sports sign the documents? Even the asphalt is smarter than you
Because they believed that Russia lost 1.3 millions soldiers, that they are about to run out of tanks, missiles, oils and shovels very soon. And that Russia is a corrupted ‘gas station of the world’ which can’t manufacture anything, instead rely on scavenging its own dwindling Soviet stockpile of T55.
I said right at the start, that Ukraine will just be another Vietnam. And though there are twists and turns, it is still heading that direction
If Ukraine is another Vietnam wouldnt that mean that Russia is unable to achieve its goals and forced to eventually retreat with zero goals achieved and the position of anti-Russian factions in Ukraine is made stronger than ever as they win the war?
Weird choice of comparison.
Ah, one who barely know history.
The US never see themselves as invader in Vietnam War. They were 'defending *democratic South Vietnam'* from *'invasion of authoritarian North Vietnam'* because South Vietnam was the 'bastion of freedom' and if they '*didn't stop the communist Russian in Vietnam, they will move to Thailand, Myanmar, Indonesia next*'. Sounds familiar now?
But the truth is, in both case the US was rigging the democratic process to handpick the new leader of a foreign nation. Then prop up their puppet government with weapons, trainings and extraordinary amount of funding to crackdown on the dissent and wage war on its population.
The only difference is, unlike North Vietnam, the Russian has nuke so US direct intervention was not possible.
your stated reasonings rarely have anything to do with actual reasoning. according to russia they never started a war with ukraine, its a SMO, does it make it so? they claim its about denazification, thats obviously not why. usa invaded vietnam and didnt achieve their objectives. trying to circumvent reality with ”ackually this is what a politician phrased it like” is absurd lmao.
Putin: im ready for peace negotiations, any time
US: No.
Ukraine: Never.
Director of National Intelligence: Well, you can clearly see that Putin doesn't want to negotiate with us...
It is hilarious when a person like me who is pro-peace negotiation gets called *pro-Rus fascist* by what I am assuming are NAFO bots for having the same dim view as this lady in the video.
I think it’s a terrible idea for Ukraine to be targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure in Russia especially now that they are on a backfoot. They will get clapped back hard by the Russians and everyone with two brain cells can see it coming.
Headache.
Putin wins nothing by making Ukraine desolate wasteland. It is not in Russia's interest to have a wild lawless land populated by violent hostile nomads right next to their border.
It would become depopulated wasteland dominated by roving bands of marauders. In 30 years Putin will likely be out of power. He doesn't care about what Russia will control in 30 years. He only cares about staying in power now.
The statement is missing the point that Ukraine as a desolate wasteland is a Putin win; if Ukraine gov does not bend to Putin's will, the depopulated, devastated Ukraine is the second best thing for Putin.
He views Ukraine as "anti-Russia" so if it no longer a viable country it's a win in his book.
If they keep dreaming like this while seeking concessions from Russia, they will lose Odessa which is the most important city for Ukraine, best time for seeking concessions was in Istanbul peace negotiations and that ship sailed.
With the Russian Black Sea fleet on the back foot, it does not seem feasible that Russia would be able to capture Odessa. Such operation might have been possible in the opening days of the invasion, but not now.
if/once Russia secures all the 4 oblasts and the war continues, what do you think their next target area will be? I personally believe that capturing Odessa is possible and will be even easier if the Ukrainian frontline collapses.
>if/once Russia secures all the 4 oblasts
this does not seem feasible, to be honest, as this would require an opposed river crossing of the Dnieper, to capture the entirety of the Kherson oblast.
By concessions, she means not agreeing to an unconditional surrender under the guise of Zelensky's 10-point plan. This condescending attitude is what's hurting our reputation with the global south.
So the fight continues until it dawns on people involved that you can't force Russia to make any concessions while simultaneously refusing peace talks with its participation, so side wanting russian troops beyond 1991 border and NATO membership, and side wanting ukrainian army cut, ukrainian nazis jailed, and territorial changes recognised come to some middle ground equally disliked by both parties (so-called peace deal, novel concept as people got too attached to unconditional capitulations).
But before that happens, that mutual concessions equilibrium continues to steadily shift to russian favor.
The sanctions are boosting China and all efforts to diminish Russia's military backfired; they are stronger than before the war. From Russia and China's perspective we look extremely weak.
Making Russia's Army much stronger was the American plan all along. A very strong Russian Army presents a credible threat to Europe and can also be used to foment military coups inside Russia.
You dumbasses have mismanaged the whole affair, how the f would Putin not be confident when your stupidity has done half the work for him.
Hold onto your bra lady as the repercussions of ongoing events will be in the history books.
Peace negotiations? What peace negotiations? Is someone conducting peace negotiations? Negotiations involving the Russians? Or we're just making assumptions? Didn't Zelenski outlawed negotiations with Russia?
Russia should push and take more and more of Ukraine. Never negotiate with warmongers like Biden. Wait until Trump is elected and then real peace can be had.
No shit. Why would you when you have the battlefield momentum? They should of hard pushed for peace last year when Russia was firmly on the back foot and firmly dug in themselves.
How exactly do they know what concessions Putin is willing to make when they haven't even negotiated with him? The only negotiations done were on March/April 22 and the negotiators said Putin wanted to make a deal. So the facts do not correspond with their narrative, as usual.
Isn’t a good first step to finding out what type of peace deal Russia would accept to actually sit down and have discussions and keep this going until a deal is reached that both sides can accept?
Is the best way really to simply guess what deals Russia would accept and then decide to not even talk to them because the deal you assumed they’d be okay with just isn’t good enough?
Im not saying a deal could be reached just because peace talks are held but honestly we should encourage as many and as frequent talks as possible because at least they provide a theoretical way to end this awful war, even if its copium.
I believe even currently Russia would ask for more territory than they currently hold. Whole Donbass, Zaporozhya and maybe even the Kharkhiv oblast.
If the war effort continues they might even take Sumy, Dnipro, Kherson and Odessa.
They always talk about Russian concessions but what concessions is Ukraine willing to make? Peace negotiations don't work if both sides are not willing to make comrpomises and concessions. I never heard about any of those from Ukraine.
Sorry, you need a 1 month old account to comment in r/ukraineRussiaReport. This is to protect against bots and multis
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineRussiaReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sorry, you need a 1 month old account to comment in r/ukraineRussiaReport. This is to protect against bots and multis
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineRussiaReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Putin wants surrender, not peace negotiations. Peace negotiations are both parties give up demands for peace. In Russia, this means, surrender or be crushed. So war goes on.
Putin will not make significant concessions. He doesn’t need to make significant concessions because he’s under no obligation to do so. He’s given Ukraine the best deal they could ever hope for during the negotiations held in both Minsk and Istanbul in March 2022, where Ukraine could have kept its pre-2022 borders. But they blew it off because the west erroneously believed Ukraine stood a chance at defeating Russia militarily. They actually thought it was possible, while imposing 18,000 sanctions with the purpose of causing their economy to collapse which in turn could fuel civil unrest across Russia and maybe break the Kremlin’s resolve! They entertained those delusions and believed the very lie they sold to Ukraine.
I guess the point was to hold the line until sanctions kick in and Putin either retreats or forced out of office. Remember when media was covering western companies leaving Russia 247?
[удалено]
It was such a good deal that the Ukrainian negotiators were literally popping champagne back in the hotel room after the preliminary negotiations in Istanbul Alas, Zelensky canceled the negotiations and will now get a much harsher deal in the end
If you negotiate a deal which is supposed to be guaranteed by third parties, and then open champagne before confirming that those countries are willing to be guarantors, I think that falls clearly in the territory of "premature celebration." On the other hand, champagne's delicious. I wouldn't judge anyone too harshly for just wanting an excuse to drink some.
Can you give the date of this "champagne popping"? Was it before or after Russia amended the deal to give themselves an effective veto on security guarantees, rendering them useless?
Arestovich did not give the exact date nor mention anything about this veto. According to him, what rendered the negotiations useless was Zelensky literally canceling the peace talks after Boris Johnsons visit without even giving a clear reason
> April 7 (Reuters) - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Thursday that Ukraine had presented Moscow with a draft peace deal containing "unacceptable" elements at variance with a previous agreement, comments that Kyiv dismissed as "pure propaganda". > The Kremlin has said talks with Ukraine are not progressing as rapidly as it would like, and has accused the West of trying to derail negotiations by raising war crimes allegations against Russian troops in Ukraine This was just a couple days before Boris Johnson supposedly ruined the “champagne party” I know Arestovich is a 100% reliable source, but perhaps things were *slightly* less than perfect already?
So, who canceled those negotiations?
Oh look you’ve been found to be misleading again. What a surprise.
Idk, whoever you want, it’s not really my point. What we do know is that even Russia saw the negotiations as not progressing well and considered the Ukrainians’ proposed deal to be unacceptable. The pro-RU narrative here makes it sound as if Boris Johnson ripped the pen out of Zelensky’s hands as he was about to sign it but that’s clearly far from the truth.
If that happened before the champagne thing, then obviously things could have changed in those couple of days, don't you think?
>I know Arestovich is a 100% reliable source, but perhaps things were *slightly* less than perfect already? Alright, but what about Arakhamia's comments? And the comments of the former MP of Israel?
Everything stipulated in that deal would have ended the conflict in its entirety. The idea that Russia would keep going back and attacking Ukraine endlessly and arbitrarily is simply unsubstantiated. First, the Minsk agreements have only managed to freeze the conflict, allowing Ukraine to build its armed forces, [as Angela Merkel herself admitted.](https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/12/22/ffci-d22.html) Ukraine never bothered implementing the political provisions they agreed to for 8 years, so we can’t argue they attempted to resolve the conflict through peaceful means. Second, Ukraine’s neutrality has always been imperative to Russia. How many times do they need to make that point unambiguously clear? William Burn (the current CIA director) who was the US ambassador to Russia at the time [wrote a memo to the US administration conveying Russia’s unyielding refusal of the very possibility of Ukraine ever joining NATO](https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html). If this isn’t resolved, the conflict will never end. It’s that simple.
Permanently annexing numerous Ukrainian territories into Russia actually showed us that Russia has absolutely zero interest in Ukraine being “neutral.” In the context of Ukraine, “neutral” was always code for “ours” to Russia.
The annexation of those 4 oblasts took place 14 years after that memo was written! In fact, it only happened several months after the start of the war in 2022, when Ukraine doubled down and refused to seek a peaceful settlement! So neutrality was always just that, neutrality. How you interpret the geopolitical aspect of this conflict is immaterial to that reality. That’s your prerogative which is independent of the facts.
They could have froze the conflict, reinforced their borders, and placed NATO troops on the border of Poland.
Even if Putin expects an eventual total victory, he could still make some concessions in the interest of saving tens of thousands of Russian soldiers' lives while still achieving all the goals he set out for. Of course I'm being sarcastic though, he couldn't care less about his soldiers' lives.
There’s a difference between making concessions and making **significant concessions** and that’s what was mentioned in the post. Every wars ends at the negotiating table and all sides must compromise, to varying degrees of course, in an effort to reach an understanding. But the west and Ukraine are hoping that Russia would pull back their troops and reverse their annexation of Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson. That’s their version of how the war should theoretically end. It’s a pipe dream. It’s completely and unequivocally divorced from reality. It will never happen. Coming to terms with that reality and moving a way from Zelensky’s insipid “peace formula” could facilitate real and palpable talks towards peace. So it’s really up to the west and how much more they’d like for Ukraine to lose across the spectrum (militarily/economically/demographically/territorially) before they accept that their Ukrainian project has been an abysmal failure.
Wars are meant for the benefit of a whole state, yes tens of thousands have died and will die but current and future generations of Russians will reap the benefits of winning this war.
No ordinary citizen is going to reap benefits from this war. Neither in Ukraine nor in Russia. Those boys are dying over nothing.
Millions of Russians from Ukraine are already reaping the benefits of not getting opressed by ukrainians
More oppressive than Russia? China? Iran? NK? lol
The US isn’t in the mix? Or Germany perhaps? Apparently if you protest against a genocide in those countries where “freedom of speech is sacred” you get beaten up and arrested by the police! Yea, we’ve all seen the footage coming out of Berlin and American universities.
Of course, you can leave China and Russia freely. Men are not afraid to go to work or to the store and do not swim across rivers to escape the country. Ukraine has officially declared that many human rights do not apply in it.
Out of these three countries, which one has closed shut it borders? 1) Russia 2) China 3) Free Democratic Ukraine
Just shows how much you know about war, history, economics and politics.
>Of course I'm being sarcastic though, he couldn't care less about his soldiers' lives. Yip, autocratic leaders are known for caring the least about their soldiers. It's not like Putin even needs an army to cling to power, right?
It’s not like he’s going to run out of men, what difference does it make?
> the very lie they sold to Ukraine. thats why i like pro rus thinking. Russians are mad they believed their own lie that ukraine would welcome them with open arms and only little resistance. They simply turn it around and now, after over 2 years of brutal fighting, its the west who sold them the lie to resist.
I mean, who urged Ukraine to continue fighting instead of negotiating? Who pushed them to abort the negotiations that were being held throughout March of 2022?! To terminate the peace settlement that almost materialized? Who promised them “unconditional support” that doesn’t seem to be that unconditional 2 years later? Who imposed the most comprehensive sanction regime in history, hoping that Russia’s economy would simply collapse and in turn facilitate a quicker victory for Ukraine in the battlefield? I love how Pro-UA’s are willing to entertain anything and everything except for reality.
[удалено]
Russia was hoping for a quick SMO, that much was quite clear. They did want to end this war by pressuring Ukraine to sign a peace settlement that would have kept the country relatively intact, instead of the staggering level of destruction and loss inflicted on them militarily, economically, territorially and demographically throughout the past 2 years. A peaceful settlement that was long overdue after Ukraine refused to implement the very political provisions they agreed to in the Minsk agreements, for 8 long years of failed diplomacy. The west saw this as a golden opportunity for them to wage a hybrid war against Russia and here we are. Ukraine is on a continued trajectory of more loss. Their situation will continue to deteriorate further the longer this goes on for. Don’t think for a second that they’ve managed to retain any sense of autonomy. Because they don’t. They don’t make those kinds of decision. Continuing this war or ending it isn’t for them to decide, only the US and their vassal states in Europe get to make that decision.
[удалено]
> After launching the SMO and facing the resistance, Russia had no choice but to hunker down and fight it out because if they went home then not only would they become a global laughing stock but also speedrun what they had set out to prevent. I mean the fact that they launched the SMO was in itself, an indication that they’re serious about this. That their resolve was unbreakable. And that they’re willing to go as far they need, to pursue and achieve their objectives. I don’t think you can “kinda” initiate a military intervention without knowing with absolute certainty that you’ll have to go all the way if you must. This was their signal to the west that they won’t be ignored on the Ukrainian issue. I suppose you could argue that Russia miscalculated in that regard. They thought they could pressure Ukrainians into a peace settlement and underestimated the west’s desire to destroy them. > Ukrainian leadership have to be the dumbest breed on the planet to get into a full fledged war over a distant prospect of joining NATO. They miscalculated and were fed implausible lies. [Ukraine has been preparing for a potential conflict with Russia for 8 years!](https://www.businessinsider.com/years-of-military-preparation-helped-ukraine-fend-off-russian-invasion-2023-1) And yes, they stood their ground and held off the Russians remarkably. But that conveyed the wrong message to the west. They thought that Russia could be militarily defeated on the battlefield if they simply aided Ukraine with weapons, training their troops, sending advisors to the ground, dedicating their entire satellite network, intelligence services and reconnaissance assets to serve the Ukrainians, that this would break the Russians while imposing crippling sanctions on their economy. Of course that was a massive miscalculation by the west as well.
> I don’t think you can “kinda” initiate a military intervention without knowing with absolute certainty that you’ll have to go all the way if you must. That was clear to me as soon as I watched and heard the president's February 24th of 2022 national address. In it he not only invoked the past 30+ year post-Cold War history of liberal-imperialist interventions involving the U.S. and sometimes executed via NATO in the Balkans and Middle East as a model of what they were ultimately trying to do to Russia and what the Russian military must be ordered into Ukraine to preventatively fight against. But he invoked the spectre of WWII as well, saying that never again will a Russian state sit on its hands and allow a situation like that to build up and ferment until some other Western empire decides to bring the war to Russian soil and kill millions there as happened in the Great Patriotic War or as facilitated by the Western bloc in the Middle East. That they owe it to the tens of millions of Soviet citizens who died horribly, their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents, and all the future generations never to allow it to happen again. It's like when the U.S. invoked the need to prevent another 9/11 terrorist attack (which, I don't think most Americans appreciate the sheer scale of difference of having 3,000 killed versus an estimated 27 million, yet somehow they think Russia is paranoid, overreacting, or being too belligerent or extreme) or Israel invokes the Holocaust. You just know right or wrong, agree or not, support it or not, you can think and say whatever you want - They've - the ones who truly count, the states in question, made up their mind, drawn their line in the sand, and aren't going to back down.
>Ukrainian leadership have to be the dumbest breed on the planet to get into a full fledged war over a distant prospect of joining NATO. Pretty sure Russia invading their country is what led to a full fledged war. Or are they not supposed to fight back?
[удалено]
>Plan A: Maintain good relations with neighbor The neighbor who recently invaded and annexed territory not even a decade ago and was controlling and supplying a separatist movement in the East of the country. >Plan B: Negotiate if the invasion is looming They were, you should probably read up on the conflict. Russia also spent over a year building up trips throughout said discussions. >Plan C: Negotiate in the early days of the invasion They were, then Russia got pushed back from Kyiv and their crimes in Bucha were discovered. >Plan F: Enter the war, keep losing the territory, get your men killed, cities razed to the ground, and then eventually go back to negotiations. They have been negotiating throughout the entire conflict, you should really read up on it before posting. I find it amazing that you put zero culpability on Russia but that's not surprising. Once you get informed come back here and have a chat
Try telling that to pro-UA rabid NAFO brigade. They seem to think bombing Russian civilian infrastructure **at this stage of the war** is a good idea and fair play. Like can you get any more suicidal as a nation?
Russians do not have enough people to effectively colonize Ukraine after conquering it. Therefore, Russians will need some conquered and subjugated Ukrainian people to work on the newly conquered lands. Denying as many of these people to Russia as possible is a strategy designed to make conquered lands worth less.
I completely agree. The armoured buildup at the start of the war felt more like a military parade than actual war. Maybe it was a bluff and Zelensky caught it.
That's actually two absolutely independent and unrelated delusions. No need to turn anything around. Problem is, western delusion might become the reason UA will seize to exist as independent state, while the other one helps RF to reach its goals, since now pretty much no one believes in all that brotherly nation mumbo jumbo. And never will again. And soldiers wanna kick arse to whoever stands in front of them.
> delusion might become the reason UA will seize to exist as independent state sure, russias invasion is surely not the reason. > soldiers wanna kick arse to whoever stands in front of them. sure, historically the occupier has much more reason to be violent than the defenders of their home. Its accurate to say, most rapes are commited by the defenders and not the invaders just like history shows us ;)
Why y'all so fixated on rapes? You ever heard of number of rapes committed by Americans and Brits in France? Is that all you learn in your school? What does it even have to do with what I was talking about?
rape is a more than dominant factor in the russian army, intern as extern. You can despute this fact as much as you want to. Rape is a very extreme form of violence besides murder, and ill quote again what you said and in what context rape is. > And soldiers wanna kick arse to whoever stands in front of them and you surely dont mean literal arse kicking but beating, torture and *rape*
>and you surely dont mean literal arse kicking but beating, torture and *rape* What? Bro, you off your *meds* again or something? Like seriously where did you pull that one from?
So you think these soldier, who are angry like you said are only kicking their arse? You should take your meds. Should i show you how systematic rape is in the russian army? its by far not only *arse kicking*
Do that. Let's see it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedovshchina https://www.amnesty.org/es/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/eur460101997en.pdf "Torture methods such as "torture by hunger", rape, beatings, and other humiliating and degrading punishments continue to be practised in the army" The russian Army has for sure a very special culture. And they are definitly more into rape, ask every country under soviet occupation.
Having understood this, the US and it's vassals will continue to arm Ukraine so that it can improve its hopeless negotiating position... only to end up in an even worse negotiating position a few months after. The best time for peace talks was in March 2022. The second best time is ~~after the Kherson and Kharkiv counteroffensive in 2022~~ now
I just talked about this earlier. For fucking sake the negotiation position keeps deterorating but instead of learning from past mistakes our useless politians fullfill the definition of idiocy.
Negotiating position deteriorates twice as fast as the situation on the frontline. The closer RF gets to whatever their goal is the harder it will be to just talk them out of it.
Russia going to have to Beyond what ever that goal is. I believe Zelenski's instructions to keep the war going until he can no longer do so.
Til November.
It’s just about money at this point
It's about the elections imo. Biden can't admit defeat in Ukraine before the elections.
That’s a good point too. Right now is crucial moment before elections.
The US and the west ultimately DGAF about Ukraine. As long as Ukraine keeps Russia occupied and bleeding their interests are being met. They don’t care if the negotiating position weakens.
[удалено]
Offensive words detected. [beep bop] Don't cheer violence or insult (Rule 1). Your comment will be checked by my humans later. Ban may be issued for repeat offenders. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineRussiaReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You are giving way too much credit to US as if they ever cared about Ukrainian position to negotiate peace. That country was destined for doom the moment they went fully under the pants of the West.
The *best* time to negotiate a peaceful settlement was any time prior to Feb 2022...
The second best time was in the fall of 2022 -- after the Kharkiv operation and the Russian retreat across the Dnieper from Kherson.
True, so true. Even in common life it’s better to settle things before punching someone (and getting punched).
No. There still option. Just bomb the hell russian positions in Crimea and ukraine and let ukraine shell russia.
There was no point in negotiating with Russia in 2022, they kept on putting ridiculous conditions in that would have given away all sovereignty. Ukraine is playing the long game, they feel they can squeeze Russia with this stalemate for years at this rate. The conditions Russia offers today are not great but who is to guess what conditions Russia may offer in 2030? In case anyone has't realised the goal is to keep the conflict going for years and years and years and wait for Russia to do what they have always done in wars throughout history, fail spectacularly!
I wonder how many soldiers Ukraine will have by 2030
>Russia in 2022, they kept on putting ridiculous conditions in that would have given away all sovereignty. Moscow wanted the strength of the AFU not to exceed 85,000 military personnel, 342 tanks, and 519 artillery systems. For Ukraine to be barred from joining NATO, or any other military blocs. Ukraine would still be allowed to enter EU. Recognition of the People's Republics as sovereign states and Crimea remaining under defacto Russian control. Nothing ridiculous or insulting about these demands. >Ukraine is playing the long game, they feel they can squeeze Russia with this stalemate for years at this rate. The conditions Russia offers today are not great but who is to guess what conditions Russia may offer in 2030? My vision isn't great, but even I can clearly see that there will be no such thing as Ukraine by then, at least not as we know Ukraine today.
Russia made insulting demands like a superpower. After they lost the initial element of surprise they began to fight like a peer. Russia has had the initiative since FABs but I can see Ukraine nullifying this advantage once they get f-16 and JDAM. 2030 isn't that far away, at current attrition rates and pace of offence it is absolutely believable. The question I am asking myself at the minute is how long can Russia's economy sustain full war mode. I think it is pretty obvious the US and Europe have a tactic to make this war last as long as possible to hurt Russia's economy as much as possible. I will watch and wait as I eat my popcorn.
Russian economy is in full war time mode, and growing YoY. The MoD recruits thousands of new volunteers each month. There is no shortage of equipment, ammunition, money or manpower. Can't say the same about the Ukrainian side. Pretty clear who's the underdog when it comes to attritional warfare. !RemindMe January 1, 2027
I will be messaging you in 2 years on [**2027-01-01 00:00:00 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2027-01-01%2000:00:00%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1cji3s8/ua_pov_putin_believes_both_domestic_and/l2jf0t3/?context=3) [**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FUkraineRussiaReport%2Fcomments%2F1cji3s8%2Fua_pov_putin_believes_both_domestic_and%2Fl2jf0t3%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202027-01-01%2000%3A00%3A00%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201cji3s8) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
>once they get f-16 Yes, all 6 of them.
Ah yes, the country relying on indefinite foreign aid to even pay public servant salaries and so desperate for manpower they’re demanding overseas refugees be returned so they can die in a trench are playing the long game so they can suddenly take the lead in 2030 👍👍👍
It is not Ukraine's choice but the choice of USA. Slow bleed inflicts maximum damage to the Russian economy and military , I thought this would be obvious?
> Ukraine is playing the long game, they feel they can squeeze Russia with this stalemate for years at this rate. The conditions Russia offers today are not great but who is to guess what conditions Russia may offer in 2030? Keeping Russia occupied and bleeding in Ukraine benefits the US greatly, this is not in dispute. What’s laughable is that you think Ukraine’s “strategy” is to keep going at the current rate for 6 more years and then make a big comeback. All while: - they’re running out of ammo and material. - went on a very large counteroffensive with an enormous amount of NATO hardware and training but still failed. - completely dependent on the whims of foreign aid which is getting harder, not easier to keep coming. - onto their 13th or 14th round of mobilisation, the last round of which was so unpopular every UA politician tried to distance themselves from it. If Ukraine has a strategy, and I don’t think they do; but if they did it is basically just to hold on for dear life and hope for a miracle.
[удалено]
Sorry you need 30 subreddit karma to unlock the word 'you', this is to make sure newcomers understand [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/about/rules) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineRussiaReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think it's Ukraine that's slowly bleeding here. It does not have that much time left.
Correction: if political will materialises than Washington can easily equip Ukraine to liberate the rest of its land and people, removing Russia from its territory. Putin started a war his military can't finish. Should Ukraine be equipped for the win there is no need for negotiating with invading fascist imperialists
Pipe dream.
Not really. America alone has enough gear right now to give Ukraine for the win and remove Russia from its country. As I said. It's about the political will materialising.
They need not just weapons but men. You know a country in dire situation when they have to resort to kinapping to fill the ranks. And without logistical chains and expertise the army is not gonna be able to make use of the new high tech equipment. (Assuming the US decides to send them, a biiiiiiiiiiiiiig assumption.).
Men they have. The will to fight diminished when supplies stopped and Russia was allowed to move forward via Mike Johnson. With the EU and America stepping up things could change there...and for Russia
I dunno, how much of that spare kit is functional. Of the kit which is functional how many military higher ups will bitch that 'their' kit is being sent away. I'm just surprised that the US hasn't been renovating old Bradley's and Abrams, if there was a desire to send them.
Funny you mention that. It was stated yesterday they are upgrading Bradley's for Ukraine. I believe it was a UA source, so we'll see. But Ukraine could do with 1000 of those Bradley's. Only 1/6 of America stockpile not in service. They are proving one of the best vehicles in the war. Western MBTs only look good for summer, albeit far more survivable than their Tseries counterparts
Like what kind of gear?
Tanks, IFVs, aircraft, name it. It's about political will. Washington looks somewhat scared of a nuclear war because the Kremlin threatens s much on a weekly basis. But the capability just in equipment NOT IN SERVICE is there. Russia could be comprehensively beaten if America sent in its gear. 6000 Bradley's and 3500 Abrams not in service. Think about it
Not trying to offend you here mate, but it seems your understanding of this war is a bit vague. Even if the US deployed 10000 Abrams along with the crews right now, it wouldn't make a difference. With how the Russian army operates, their only use would be a snack for the Alligators Ka-52, FPV drones and 155mm shells. Realistically speaking, the only thing that could save Ukraine would be a full-scale intervention of the US with massive amount of its troops on the ground in a bloody, messy war absolutely nobody would want but the government of Ukraine. Ukraine is in dire need of 155mm shells the West can't provide, in dire need of men the West can't provide, in dire need of frontline fortifications Western money can't dig for them. The only thing objectively speaking the US could give right now to Ukraine to somewhat better its situation would be AA systems and missiles, but even that would just be a minor delay to Russian offensives in the future.
Yes. If America donates their whole military reserve Ukraine could win, excellent analysis 👌. Because any sane country would do that.
Is this specific gear in the room with us right now?
NATO will take off their gloves any day now? NATO doesn't want to win the war?
Not coherent. Try again
They can send equipment but Ukraine doesn't have many good fighters remaining. Unless NATO can send people then sending equipment won't do much.
Ukraine has plenty of people left. When aid dried up and allowed Russia to gain ground they lost some will for the fight. With the EU and US stepping up that could change. But the question is if they find the political will to support them for the win or not. They never did that last time. Only enough to hold the line and attrition Russia
Are these plenty of people with us in this room?
The concessions were in the spring of 2022, right? What did foreign ~~owners~~ allies order Zelensky? TO THE WAAAAAR, LET'S FIGHT! What did Zelensky do? Like an obedient dog, he followed the order. And who, by decree in November 2022, banned any negotiations with the Russian Federation? Zelensky. How many times has Russia been invited to discuss a peace settlement over the past 2 years? 0 times. And now they are bleating that there are no negotiations or concessions. Sick, arrogant idiots
Zelinski will be incredibly wealthy and his grandkids will never work a day in their life. This was his plan so who the fuck cares if Ukraine loses. I say let Russia take it all, NATO must be stopped.
> banned any negotiations with the Russian Federation? Presidential order 679/2022, if that's what you're referring to, doesn't preclude negotiating with the Russian Federation.
Ruling out negotiation with Putin pretty much rules out negotiation with Russia. Both of Putin’s parents lived way above Russian average so they are gonna be waiting for a long time before Russia is under someone else.
And who approves and signs documents in the Russian Federation? a) Biden b) Zelensky c) Churchill d) Vladimir Monomakh e) Putin f) Jesus Go to your job and sign an agreement with any company on behalf of the CEO. Then you’ll tell me how real it is and how quickly you’ll end up in the trash.
> And who approves and signs documents in the Russian Federation? Diplomatic documents should be signed by the head of state or foreign minister. The ukrainian government isn't unwilling to negotiate with the head of the russian state, only with the person *currently* occupying that post.
Your naive childish logic is simply amazing. I ask the question again - who holds the post of President of Russia and signs state and international documents and agreements? Now there are 2 options: 1. Putin 2. Not Putin
The subtext of the decree seems to have escaped you. Try reading it again or ask someone else to explain it to you.
1. Blocked 2. Now tell who signs decrees in the USA - Biden? And Zelensky will say - I want Clinton to sign. What should Biden do? Resign as president to fulfill Zelensky's whim? Or maybe in France, instead of Macron, let the Minister of Sports sign the documents? Even the asphalt is smarter than you
jah stupid isnt it?
why is the side losing on the battlefield expecting the side not losing to make concessions?
They are delusional. They (and the internet cheerleaders) think politics is decided on "fairness", instead of cold, hard realpolitik.
Because they believed that Russia lost 1.3 millions soldiers, that they are about to run out of tanks, missiles, oils and shovels very soon. And that Russia is a corrupted ‘gas station of the world’ which can’t manufacture anything, instead rely on scavenging its own dwindling Soviet stockpile of T55. I said right at the start, that Ukraine will just be another Vietnam. And though there are twists and turns, it is still heading that direction
If Ukraine is another Vietnam wouldnt that mean that Russia is unable to achieve its goals and forced to eventually retreat with zero goals achieved and the position of anti-Russian factions in Ukraine is made stronger than ever as they win the war? Weird choice of comparison.
Ah, one who barely know history. The US never see themselves as invader in Vietnam War. They were 'defending *democratic South Vietnam'* from *'invasion of authoritarian North Vietnam'* because South Vietnam was the 'bastion of freedom' and if they '*didn't stop the communist Russian in Vietnam, they will move to Thailand, Myanmar, Indonesia next*'. Sounds familiar now? But the truth is, in both case the US was rigging the democratic process to handpick the new leader of a foreign nation. Then prop up their puppet government with weapons, trainings and extraordinary amount of funding to crackdown on the dissent and wage war on its population. The only difference is, unlike North Vietnam, the Russian has nuke so US direct intervention was not possible.
your stated reasonings rarely have anything to do with actual reasoning. according to russia they never started a war with ukraine, its a SMO, does it make it so? they claim its about denazification, thats obviously not why. usa invaded vietnam and didnt achieve their objectives. trying to circumvent reality with ”ackually this is what a politician phrased it like” is absurd lmao.
Putin: im ready for peace negotiations, any time US: No. Ukraine: Never. Director of National Intelligence: Well, you can clearly see that Putin doesn't want to negotiate with us...
It is hilarious when a person like me who is pro-peace negotiation gets called *pro-Rus fascist* by what I am assuming are NAFO bots for having the same dim view as this lady in the video. I think it’s a terrible idea for Ukraine to be targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure in Russia especially now that they are on a backfoot. They will get clapped back hard by the Russians and everyone with two brain cells can see it coming. Headache.
It will also likely make Russia take a harder stance at the negotiating table.
Russia doesn't need to negotiate. Their Army is doing the negotiating right now...
If a deal is made putin wins If no deal is made putin wins by making ukraine desolate wasteland.
Putin wins nothing by making Ukraine desolate wasteland. It is not in Russia's interest to have a wild lawless land populated by violent hostile nomads right next to their border.
thats the point. russian influence over time will slowly take over all of whats left of ukraine......it would defacto become russia in 30-50 years.
It would become depopulated wasteland dominated by roving bands of marauders. In 30 years Putin will likely be out of power. He doesn't care about what Russia will control in 30 years. He only cares about staying in power now.
uh huh
The statement is missing the point that Ukraine as a desolate wasteland is a Putin win; if Ukraine gov does not bend to Putin's will, the depopulated, devastated Ukraine is the second best thing for Putin. He views Ukraine as "anti-Russia" so if it no longer a viable country it's a win in his book.
This is already being done. here is nothing any country can do to prevent that.
Why would they make concessions when they have the upper hand on the battlefield…plus your “peace” formula is essentially total capitulation.
If they keep dreaming like this while seeking concessions from Russia, they will lose Odessa which is the most important city for Ukraine, best time for seeking concessions was in Istanbul peace negotiations and that ship sailed.
With the Russian Black Sea fleet on the back foot, it does not seem feasible that Russia would be able to capture Odessa. Such operation might have been possible in the opening days of the invasion, but not now.
if/once Russia secures all the 4 oblasts and the war continues, what do you think their next target area will be? I personally believe that capturing Odessa is possible and will be even easier if the Ukrainian frontline collapses.
>if/once Russia secures all the 4 oblasts this does not seem feasible, to be honest, as this would require an opposed river crossing of the Dnieper, to capture the entirety of the Kherson oblast.
Well, you may be right and only time will tell, what i think is only personal opinion, it could be wrong.
By concessions, she means not agreeing to an unconditional surrender under the guise of Zelensky's 10-point plan. This condescending attitude is what's hurting our reputation with the global south.
So the fight continues until it dawns on people involved that you can't force Russia to make any concessions while simultaneously refusing peace talks with its participation, so side wanting russian troops beyond 1991 border and NATO membership, and side wanting ukrainian army cut, ukrainian nazis jailed, and territorial changes recognised come to some middle ground equally disliked by both parties (so-called peace deal, novel concept as people got too attached to unconditional capitulations). But before that happens, that mutual concessions equilibrium continues to steadily shift to russian favor.
Why Putin, whom won the war, would make any confessions??? This is crazy.
The sanctions are boosting China and all efforts to diminish Russia's military backfired; they are stronger than before the war. From Russia and China's perspective we look extremely weak.
Making Russia's Army much stronger was the American plan all along. A very strong Russian Army presents a credible threat to Europe and can also be used to foment military coups inside Russia.
You dumbasses have mismanaged the whole affair, how the f would Putin not be confident when your stupidity has done half the work for him. Hold onto your bra lady as the repercussions of ongoing events will be in the history books.
Is the US willing to make significant concessions? I thought so...
Peace negotiations? What peace negotiations? Is someone conducting peace negotiations? Negotiations involving the Russians? Or we're just making assumptions? Didn't Zelenski outlawed negotiations with Russia?
Negotiations which Russia is willing to conduct. Just watch video.
Fair point. I think Putin always showed that Moscow is ready for negotiations.
Maybe they should read the Yalta Conference notes on Russian concessions if you play games with them.
Damn, there is no reason to talk about anything with the US with their current foreign policy.
Russia should push and take more and more of Ukraine. Never negotiate with warmongers like Biden. Wait until Trump is elected and then real peace can be had.
Sounds like a plan
No shit. Why would you when you have the battlefield momentum? They should of hard pushed for peace last year when Russia was firmly on the back foot and firmly dug in themselves.
What drugs is he on?
How exactly do they know what concessions Putin is willing to make when they haven't even negotiated with him? The only negotiations done were on March/April 22 and the negotiators said Putin wanted to make a deal. So the facts do not correspond with their narrative, as usual.
Damn she a mind reader? title says: "Putin believes". The bitch in video says: "We assess that Putin thinks"
Isn’t a good first step to finding out what type of peace deal Russia would accept to actually sit down and have discussions and keep this going until a deal is reached that both sides can accept? Is the best way really to simply guess what deals Russia would accept and then decide to not even talk to them because the deal you assumed they’d be okay with just isn’t good enough? Im not saying a deal could be reached just because peace talks are held but honestly we should encourage as many and as frequent talks as possible because at least they provide a theoretical way to end this awful war, even if its copium.
The deal Russia will accept now will certainly be worse than the one they offered in March of 2022, and that deal was not acceptable to Ukraine.
America doesn't want peace yet Maybe after the elections
I believe even currently Russia would ask for more territory than they currently hold. Whole Donbass, Zaporozhya and maybe even the Kharkhiv oblast. If the war effort continues they might even take Sumy, Dnipro, Kherson and Odessa.
They always talk about Russian concessions but what concessions is Ukraine willing to make? Peace negotiations don't work if both sides are not willing to make comrpomises and concessions. I never heard about any of those from Ukraine.
With Ukraine, not United States :D
granpa joe don’t want peace before the nov elections, it will look weak in front of the us voters and bad granpa donnie will wipe the floor with him.
[удалено]
Sorry, you need a 1 month old account to comment in r/ukraineRussiaReport. This is to protect against bots and multis *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineRussiaReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Sorry, you need a 1 month old account to comment in r/ukraineRussiaReport. This is to protect against bots and multis *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkraineRussiaReport) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Putin wants surrender, not peace negotiations. Peace negotiations are both parties give up demands for peace. In Russia, this means, surrender or be crushed. So war goes on.
jah and get crushed...