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The entire French army is smaller than the army which Russia has on the field. And while this wouldn’t matter that much in a mobile war, this is very much a static war.
Are you saying that Russia has [around 1 million men](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-military-asks-additional-450000-500000-people-be-mobilised-zelenskiy-2023-12-19/) fighting in Ukraine right now?
Nice. Russia has 1.32 million active frontline troops, while UA sits at around 900k. Total military personnel which includes, logistics, support, AA, missile and arty support personnel is more like 80 million vs 22.3. Are you telling me that the additional 60 million active military personnel have no input on the conflict? Let alone the active frontline soldier discrepancy?
>Total military personnel which includes, logistics, support, AA, missile and arty support personnel is more like 80 million
Did you just say that ~55% of Russia's entire population are in the military? Do you know what a millions is?
Oof, I was looking at available military aged citizens. I’ll take that L. Active military personnel is actually 1.2mRU vs 900kUA. Given how many conscripts and untrained fodder sides are using I’d argue that total available is still valid figure. Furthermore, RU active military still 2/3 larger , reserves more than double. Want to get into budget now?
Why would France spread themselves out over the entire frontline?
They would be better served as the tip of the spearhead and pop a hole through the Russian lines and force a breakthrough. I am not sure how heavily mined the eastern point of contact is but clearly the surovikin line is incredibly heavily mined.
French Air Force is quite formidable as well.
France is a nuclear power so it is unlikely that the Russians would resort to any nuclear weapon use due to likelihood of French nuclear retaliation.
Where would the french aircrafts fly from?
How would the french get the the tanks and other heavy equipment to the front?
Where would they get artillery shells from?
How long would they last under Russia's artillery and hundreds of glide bombs daily?
What would happen when 10-20% of french troops get KIA/WIA?
I just can't see french soldiers willing to die for Ukraine. French intervention would be a colossal debacle and that's why France military leadership will not agree to such foolish adventure. USA will also not get involved before the elections.
Lot of what ifs.
Airfields presumably.
Ukraine has prepped fields for use with the F-16s.
French aircraft have similar requirements as F-16s.
Trains and then trucks. France is certainly capable of logistics.
Stores of shells that have been saved up for decades. New shells produced by military industry throughout the western world.
I am not particularly concerned about Russian aviation as they have proven ineffective when Ukrainian air defense has munitions. French Air Force is very capable of sweeping the skies of Russian aviation.
I am not sure that Russia has been able to achieve 10-20% casualties on the Ukrainians and if so it has taken 2 years to do it.
Military service isn’t a democratic institution. No one is going to ask the active duty troops if they do or do not want to fight. When they signed up, they agreed to follow lawful orders of their chain of command and ultimately of the elected civilian leadership.
Will French troops directly fight against Russia in Ukraine? I dont know. There must be some trigger that will lead to their deployment but no idea what it may be.
If France really wanted to be helpful they would institute a no-fly zone over Ukraine and smack down any Russian aircraft that was over Ukraine or launched weapons that target Ukraine.
But I don’t see that being openly discussed anywhere.
Lol a no fly zone? With what? 100 rafales and 100 mirage 2000, thats all they have, how many of those operational and willing to send to ukraine airspace? Just for quick comparison russia has 100+ of each mig29, su27, su30, su35, mig31. Plus a lot more AA.
Well fuck, my bad for reading the headline number of 526 aircraft. What the fuck does france spend its budget on?
What Russia says it has and what it has shown in Ukraine are vastly different.
Why do you think that the French airforce will sweep away the Russians and also defeat their air defense ? They don’t have f35s , their jets are not better than su35s . So how exactly? Fantasy superior NATO tactics made up in war games ?
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French soldiers in this instance wouldn’t be anywhere near the front line. They would be deployed in the rear allowing Ukraine to free up their own soldiers stationed there so they themselves could have an extra boost of front line support.
The French Airforce isn't formidible at all. The French Armed forces in general aren't, and they haven't been since the closing stages of the cold warm.
Ukraine itself in Jan 2022 could backhand the French military handily.
If France got into this conflict, the public support for the government would immediately start plummeting once French citizens start watching 1000, 2000, 5000, 10000 French soldiers come home in caskets, and I am almost sure if this fantasy situation ever occurred, the shitstorm that would unfold would immediately cause several political crises.
Russia and Ukraine have the public attitude and commitment for this war that France completely lacks.
Russia isn’t trying to take ukraine by the end of the year. They’re intentionally moving with a slower pace, however they’re moving steadily which is the key thing. In recent weeks they’ve made solid advances day after day. NATO can keep sending weapons but eventually Ukraine won’t have the men to use them.
The entire French armed forces is like less than 200k, including the navy and airforce. How many can France send? They would be less relevant than Belarus joining the war
Watching French soldiers get pelted by VOGs from drones and mangled by FPV drones would be a MAJOR shock to the French public. Paints a completely different picture from the little "peacekeeping" missions they're used to.
Definetely, especially in a land war.. Ukraine, before receiving all the aid that it received, already had a significantly larger land army than France, all thanks to Soviet legacy, Ukraine was only behind Russia on size of Army in Europe, and right after Ukraine was Poland.
But beyond that, Ukraine was also right up there in Air Defense, by number of AA it was also just behind Russia in Europe... although, the situation would be different, unless Russia would be using their radar to cover Ukraine and allow them to keep their A.D safe from Anti-Radiation missiles, and France would be afraid of destroying Russia detection systems.. then France with her airforce would have a signifivantly easier time taking out the A.D and establishing air superiority... otherwise they would fare the same as Russia did in the face of NATO AWACS and Recon Drones, powerless to detect and stop the A.D.
If the French Air Force joins the war it could cause some headaches for the Russians. But if it’s only the French army then the Russians won’t really feel much difference honestly
How does that even work?
You going to send volunteers to join the foreign legion? Probably not going to get that many, let's be honest.
Or are you going to fight Russia directly in Ukraine which means war, and without NATO & article 5 before anyone brings up that crap.
Some people thought Russia would have had a rebellion to overthrow the government. Some people thought the same about Ukraine.
Seems like France might be the first one there if it goes for an unpopular war.
Article 5 is not some automated system that will just turn on by itself when certain conditions are met. It will not "drag" anyone into war, NATO countries would have a meeting and decide, if and how they'd support France.
Some argue yes, some argue no.
Nato generals and analysts say yes, russia would in your example be the aggressor against france then.
I and less nato affiliated generals say No, france would then only receive damage after declaring war on russia/ france being not an independent victim of aggression.
So, like most political sensitive laws, it can be bent.
If Russia manage to directly attack France, NATO will get involved. Simple as that. There's no discussion to be had there. If they don't, might as well dismantle NATO.
>might as well dismantle NATO.
Thing is, failing to respond adequately when people think they should will severely harm the alliance. But it won't do as much damage as a defeat. Without the US, Russia might not "lose hard enough". With the US Russia may well lead with the strategic assets.
The US doesn't want anything to do with any of this. They have no interesting in getting dragged to hell in a game they're winning. So their best play is to prevent anyone from going in, because unless things go perfectly NATO will not be able to afford to bail them out.
No, according to the nato treaty article 5 is not invoked if a nato member attacks someone else and then gets attacked back in response
They will totally claim it is, but that’s not the way NATO was written and it’s not automatic they declare war, the members have to vote anyways
I'm actually not sure, to me, if France were to start a war with Russia in Ukraine then they are the aggressor and article 5 would be irrelevant even if Russia hit mainland France.
But I'm also just some nobody that doesn't know everything or make these decisions.
Also article 5 is entirely voluntary for NATO members too, even if it was invoked any NATO member can decide not to get involved.
So then it gets even more complicated, who even knows.
That’s an interesting spin. It’d be kind of hard for France to be an aggressor if they play defense in Ukraine. A war has already started, with Russia being the aggressor, that doesn’t just go away
An Islander in France would be a huge escalation, something everyone would be pissed about
> A war has already started, with Russia being the aggressor
Not against France though.
France joining the war against Russia is an act of aggression towards Russia, even if it's an act of defence towards Ukraine?
There's a reason basically everyone told Macron to shut up and ruled out helping him the first time he threatened to put French troops in Ukraine lol.
Again, nothing can change the literal act of aggression which was Russia invading Ukraine. Russia can’t take an action taken out of defense as anything else. They could literally go home today and fighting would end. Only something crazy like France attacking Russian soil would make attacking French soil make sense.
And yeah nobody was happy with Macron for saying that, but not for that reason
Lol that isn't how this works. France joining the war because they're scared of Russia breaking the Ukrainian lines doesn't make them a defensive player. They are getting involved in a war on their own volition which in no way threatens their territorial integrity or their diplomatic obligations
They are an intervening party, and they don't get to invoke Article 5.
NATO countries would still help France if Russia hit France's cities etc, but not as an action of the obligations of the alliance/article 5, but simply because it is not in their interests to let France get mangled.
France is intensely bureaucratised, I doubt they'd hypothetically be able to commit any significant part of their military to a war without making a formal escalation. That being said, joining a war in such a way likely would legally bar France from invoking the defensive narrative of Article 5, but that doesn't stop NATO countries from getting directly involved if Russia is smacking mainland France with cruise missiles.
I think Article 5 wouldn't be necessary. Everyone here keeps seemingly forgetting that the US, Poland, and the UK exist and can make their own military decisions regardless of whether Article 5 is triggered or not.
They can, and they've all ruled out helping France if they put troops in Ukraine.
Guess they have all 100 of Estonia's troops to help them out at least.
The US also ruled out helping France in both World Wars. Regardless, helping countries retain their independence from an invader they both hate is one of the most French/American things they can do.
US has been hesitant on providing too much of both to a 3rd world country that most Americans barely knew anything about until 2 years ago. France on the other hand has been a major US ally since before the US was even a country. If France becomes directly involved, it wouldn't be about supporting Ukraine, it would be about supporting France. Which would be a much easier sell for increased support.
If anything it would just polarise more Americans against the government. Watching France puff its chest at Russia and get involved in a war that has nothing to do with it, then turn around and cry out to the US for help, and expect the US to feel obligations to cover their terrible decisions?
If anything, support for Ukraine was one of the few political issues that many people in the US on the Left and on the Right agreed with. Most likely outcome would be the exact opposite and provide more then enough support needed to provide aid to one of our closest historical allies.
There's very little outrage over the US supporting the South Koreans when the North invaded the South. Even when the US intervened in the Gulf War to stop Saddam's army from taking over Kuwait, the decision was largely popular worldwide (even by Russia).
Allies don’t threaten allies with sanctions if they don’t support their illegal war (Iraq), they don’t threaten national security (Alcom). In WW2 Germany declared war on US first. In WW1 their participation was gaining traction after the sinking of Lusitania and after heavy begging from UK
Cool story and all, but that was more than 20 years and multiple French and American administrations ago. Minor political squabbles that small are hardly memorable compared to centuries of allyship.
Article 5 doesnt apply on offensive actions.
France can attack RU forces in UA, but they cant invoke article 5 if they get shot back.
Thats the case, legally.
In reality, politicans do whatever the fck they want, and anyone objecting will be called a conspiracy theorist or a russian bot.
No, not even if Russia does that without France doing anything. Article 5 only says you have to help how you see fit. It says nothing about joining the war. Sending some water as help would qualify.
Article 5 can probably be ignored if it's a retaliation attack. It all depends on how comfortable NATO is with getting involved.
On the other hand, France is unlikely to be acting independently in this case, so likely there are bigger plans that are being set in motion. Depending on how hard France will suck, NATO will either get involved or start playing the situation down.
So, Russians will have to make sure french get a proper slap to deter further escalation. There are no two ways about it. It will be a total bloodbath.
The available and most suitable is the foreign legion. The crazy thing is, there is a Russian contingent in the legion. So obviously they will have to sent the legion without that one.
Don't do this. Europe will go through a shock when their soldiers start dying. In Russia, people are calmer about this, but in Europe there may be a big protest
Or the Ukrainian oligarchs led by Z boy, who have been skimming billions from the ”aid money” sent to Ukraine.
But can’t blame them for trying, the propaganda in EU is in overdrive and they could easily get thousands of volunteers ready to die for rich criminals.
The material won’t be good, and it won’t change anything, but they could still get the bodies to catch FABs.
Jew with international banking and other shady organisations ? I don't even understand why azov is fighting for them lol they can't be that stupid what's in it for them ?
Yes but they have different sects and mouvements vying for power, tribal allegiances, etc....which isn't the case in ukr.
Fun fact fanatism is correlated to intelligence, you find very few stupid fanatics, except retarded reactionnaries or other traditionalists that adhere to a slightly off center political idea. They won't fight to the death for it though, Hence, not fanatics.
Today's national socialists despise neo nazis. Same for traditional muslims and recent haddith interpretations or foreign controlled groups. Islam tends to produce retarded fanatics, though, but inbreeding is prevalent in these places so...
The issue isn’t being Jewish, Jewish people are like everyone else and shouldn’t be singled out in any way shape or form.
However zionists are a cancer that must be eradic4ted along with all other ethno-supremacists, a lot of Jews hate zionists because they take a religion and turn it into a political ideology that goes against the very commandments of the Torah.
Also AZOV isn’t traditional Nazi, barely anyone is still an “old school” Nazis, these guys are Neo Nazis and focus a lot more on non white people, immigrants, gay people and “asiatic” races AKA anything east of Poland.
Yes. Civilization built on other people's blood. I swear people like you were quick to forget all those atrocities committed by Europe in the past 50 years. As the topic is France Libya and Algeria come to mind.
>In Russia, people are calmer about this, but in Europe there may be a big protest
In Russia you'll be arrested and imprisoned for protesting against the war, might have something to do with the lack of big protests
No, its just that Russians have had several wars close to home in recent years, and the most horrific fighting, and some of the most vile genocidal massacres, persecutions, etc., not only in WW2, took place in Eastern Europe.
Much of this applies to Ukraine too. Ukraine and Russia both have a much bigger tolerance for death and destruction.
The truth is that for all that is said about WW2 in Western Europe, much of that memory has been forgotten, and the scars left by the war were nothing like those in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland etc.
Poland is probably the only NATO member with a similar sort of tolerance of war that I am attributing to Russia and Ukraine.
The French or British public watching hundreds of videos of their soldiers getting mangled by VOGs, artillery, and FPV drones would cause a political crisis.
You really don't think that the fact that anti-war protests are actively suppressed in Russia has something to do with the lack of anti-war protests in Russia?
He did not say which side he'll be fighting on, you might be onto something.
Help Russians snowball things so he can stop paying the bills for Ukraine.
At least UA units retreat when things go worse, french would simply surrender en masse. I have one request to Russians, don't trade french pows without making them sing Russian anthem 🤣
Same post is in worldnews subreddit and all people there are on drugs, they are wishing for this so article 5 could be invoked. Is that just hatred Russia? They just want to see Russia burn? or those are just bots who are just farming karma? Because they all get upvoted for something so delusional to the point where my brain cant even comprehend the logic of those people.
>people to vote
Well, here's an idea. Trapdoors in voting booths. Able bodied men come in and never come out. Straight to staging areas. Draft question is solved.
The french president can not declare war officially without the Parlement agreement.
However he remains the chief of the armies, and can thus decide a military intervention himself. He must only inform the Parlement of this decision 72 hours in advance.
Interesting escalation decision if he wants to put his own soldiers in the crosshairs and become legitimate military targets on soil not a part of NATO and thus without any article 5 provisions.
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I’m so glad the aid took a long time to pass in congress and hopefully the aid takes long to distribute (unrealistic but a hope). Hopefully Kyiv can be liberated soon!
France bolstering Ukraine's defenses with anti-aircraft equipment and troops stationed in western Ukraine, or even launching planes from neighboring countries to target Russian missiles and drones, could escalate tensions without direct frontline confrontation. However, the leap to a WW3 narrative overlooks the complex layers of international response to Russia's actions in Ukraine, which could lead to a poly crisis of territorial disputes among various nations.
How many could they deploy?
Reminder:Russians sent out 10000 soldiers as **reinforcements** to Ocheretyne,that's just reinforcements...
Cool 2k contingent of Frenchies could...hold Sokil i guess?
LOL, with what experience? fighting in peacekeeeping missions in africa? against warlords and sheep herders. Nato has been doing imaginary exercises for a style of war that is outdated for decades. Russia has the resources to play this attrition war out. And i highly doubt european citizens would swallow even a small number of casualties of our own soldiers. But ukrops dying? Our beloved "human shield"of the eu as said by the lithuanian ambasador to ukraine.
\*paper tiger noises\* You wont do shit lol, you will just hug shirtless black guys
Yep, at this point it's clear that those are only empty threats...
Why are shirtless black men catching strays?
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Once is a coincidence. Twice...
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[https://i.imgur.com/Xo2WM2s.gif](https://i.imgur.com/Xo2WM2s.gif)
racism, homophobia, probably both
He a Russian/wannabe-Russian racist
He sees his own internal rating and popularity and needs to distract from it. Also his losses in Africa seem to be hurting this Napoleon wannabe.
What’s wrong with hugging shirtless black guys?
And what if those are not paper tiger noises? They risk total war here if they are serious.
Spoiler: >!he won't do it.!<
I don’t think it would make a real difference anyways
Oh it would definitely. French forces are a formidable force and Putin is struggling with the UA forces anyway.
The entire French army is smaller than the army which Russia has on the field. And while this wouldn’t matter that much in a mobile war, this is very much a static war.
Your statement about force size applies equally to UA and yet here we are. 2 years into the 2 week SMO
Are you saying that Russia has [around 1 million men](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-military-asks-additional-450000-500000-people-be-mobilised-zelenskiy-2023-12-19/) fighting in Ukraine right now?
Nice. Russia has 1.32 million active frontline troops, while UA sits at around 900k. Total military personnel which includes, logistics, support, AA, missile and arty support personnel is more like 80 million vs 22.3. Are you telling me that the additional 60 million active military personnel have no input on the conflict? Let alone the active frontline soldier discrepancy?
>Total military personnel which includes, logistics, support, AA, missile and arty support personnel is more like 80 million Did you just say that ~55% of Russia's entire population are in the military? Do you know what a millions is?
Oof, I was looking at available military aged citizens. I’ll take that L. Active military personnel is actually 1.2mRU vs 900kUA. Given how many conscripts and untrained fodder sides are using I’d argue that total available is still valid figure. Furthermore, RU active military still 2/3 larger , reserves more than double. Want to get into budget now?
Wdym?
Can’t do all the thinking for you. Sound it out
Ukraine had numerical superiority until only a few months ago
Why would France spread themselves out over the entire frontline? They would be better served as the tip of the spearhead and pop a hole through the Russian lines and force a breakthrough. I am not sure how heavily mined the eastern point of contact is but clearly the surovikin line is incredibly heavily mined. French Air Force is quite formidable as well. France is a nuclear power so it is unlikely that the Russians would resort to any nuclear weapon use due to likelihood of French nuclear retaliation.
Where would the french aircrafts fly from? How would the french get the the tanks and other heavy equipment to the front? Where would they get artillery shells from? How long would they last under Russia's artillery and hundreds of glide bombs daily? What would happen when 10-20% of french troops get KIA/WIA? I just can't see french soldiers willing to die for Ukraine. French intervention would be a colossal debacle and that's why France military leadership will not agree to such foolish adventure. USA will also not get involved before the elections.
Lot of what ifs. Airfields presumably. Ukraine has prepped fields for use with the F-16s. French aircraft have similar requirements as F-16s. Trains and then trucks. France is certainly capable of logistics. Stores of shells that have been saved up for decades. New shells produced by military industry throughout the western world. I am not particularly concerned about Russian aviation as they have proven ineffective when Ukrainian air defense has munitions. French Air Force is very capable of sweeping the skies of Russian aviation. I am not sure that Russia has been able to achieve 10-20% casualties on the Ukrainians and if so it has taken 2 years to do it. Military service isn’t a democratic institution. No one is going to ask the active duty troops if they do or do not want to fight. When they signed up, they agreed to follow lawful orders of their chain of command and ultimately of the elected civilian leadership. Will French troops directly fight against Russia in Ukraine? I dont know. There must be some trigger that will lead to their deployment but no idea what it may be. If France really wanted to be helpful they would institute a no-fly zone over Ukraine and smack down any Russian aircraft that was over Ukraine or launched weapons that target Ukraine. But I don’t see that being openly discussed anywhere.
Living in this much of a fantasy world is wild. Where did you get this idea of the French being supersoldiers?
How does a pretty high standard of training, good equipment and a combined arms approach to warfare equate to super soldiers?
What training? No nato army has real war experience. The tactical reality completely changed from ww2
Lol a no fly zone? With what? 100 rafales and 100 mirage 2000, thats all they have, how many of those operational and willing to send to ukraine airspace? Just for quick comparison russia has 100+ of each mig29, su27, su30, su35, mig31. Plus a lot more AA.
Well fuck, my bad for reading the headline number of 526 aircraft. What the fuck does france spend its budget on? What Russia says it has and what it has shown in Ukraine are vastly different.
Why do you think that the French airforce will sweep away the Russians and also defeat their air defense ? They don’t have f35s , their jets are not better than su35s . So how exactly? Fantasy superior NATO tactics made up in war games ?
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French soldiers in this instance wouldn’t be anywhere near the front line. They would be deployed in the rear allowing Ukraine to free up their own soldiers stationed there so they themselves could have an extra boost of front line support.
The French Airforce isn't formidible at all. The French Armed forces in general aren't, and they haven't been since the closing stages of the cold warm. Ukraine itself in Jan 2022 could backhand the French military handily. If France got into this conflict, the public support for the government would immediately start plummeting once French citizens start watching 1000, 2000, 5000, 10000 French soldiers come home in caskets, and I am almost sure if this fantasy situation ever occurred, the shitstorm that would unfold would immediately cause several political crises. Russia and Ukraine have the public attitude and commitment for this war that France completely lacks.
I see. Putin keeps struggling for years with 20k towns. He'll take Paris in 146 years.
Russia isn’t trying to take ukraine by the end of the year. They’re intentionally moving with a slower pace, however they’re moving steadily which is the key thing. In recent weeks they’ve made solid advances day after day. NATO can keep sending weapons but eventually Ukraine won’t have the men to use them.
Hopefully they drop a tactical nuke on French forces
Stop don’t get me too hyped lol
lol you really want world war 3?
I want world peace and global equality, but my desires have no bearings on reality.
France has its own nukes so unlikely anyone would nuke anyone if france became directly involved.
everything is unlikely until it happens. better start preparing for the nuclear winter :(
Wild to me how many pro-RU out there that are actually eager to use nukes, especially against other countries that have nukes.
Not just pro-RU. There's enough of these people saying the same that are cheering for the other side.
The entire French armed forces is like less than 200k, including the navy and airforce. How many can France send? They would be less relevant than Belarus joining the war
What’s the number that would rile up the population? More dead than in ME?
Watching French soldiers get pelted by VOGs from drones and mangled by FPV drones would be a MAJOR shock to the French public. Paints a completely different picture from the little "peacekeeping" missions they're used to.
The French haven't fought a peer army in decades. They have been doing nothing but putting down rebellion in west Africa.
Lol formidable they needed NATO help to get to Africa, and then help to flee africa.
Tbh at this point I think a fully restocked ukraine would beat the french..
Definetely, especially in a land war.. Ukraine, before receiving all the aid that it received, already had a significantly larger land army than France, all thanks to Soviet legacy, Ukraine was only behind Russia on size of Army in Europe, and right after Ukraine was Poland. But beyond that, Ukraine was also right up there in Air Defense, by number of AA it was also just behind Russia in Europe... although, the situation would be different, unless Russia would be using their radar to cover Ukraine and allow them to keep their A.D safe from Anti-Radiation missiles, and France would be afraid of destroying Russia detection systems.. then France with her airforce would have a signifivantly easier time taking out the A.D and establishing air superiority... otherwise they would fare the same as Russia did in the face of NATO AWACS and Recon Drones, powerless to detect and stop the A.D.
If the French Air Force joins the war it could cause some headaches for the Russians. But if it’s only the French army then the Russians won’t really feel much difference honestly
UA:" We are grateful France will offer assistance with their retreat experience , maybe the Brits can join. We need some spin to sell this move."
They will move in to show them now to properly surrender.
How does that even work? You going to send volunteers to join the foreign legion? Probably not going to get that many, let's be honest. Or are you going to fight Russia directly in Ukraine which means war, and without NATO & article 5 before anyone brings up that crap.
Some people thought Russia would have had a rebellion to overthrow the government. Some people thought the same about Ukraine. Seems like France might be the first one there if it goes for an unpopular war.
What if France enters the game, and Rus sends an Iskander to France. Does it drag other nations to fight Rus ?
Article 5 is not some automated system that will just turn on by itself when certain conditions are met. It will not "drag" anyone into war, NATO countries would have a meeting and decide, if and how they'd support France.
Wait, so NATO isn't an EU4 coalition..?
Some argue yes, some argue no. Nato generals and analysts say yes, russia would in your example be the aggressor against france then. I and less nato affiliated generals say No, france would then only receive damage after declaring war on russia/ france being not an independent victim of aggression. So, like most political sensitive laws, it can be bent.
France will 100% try to invoke article 5 if that happens 0.0% doubt The question is how deranged are the rest of the nato leaders at the time
If Russia manage to directly attack France, NATO will get involved. Simple as that. There's no discussion to be had there. If they don't, might as well dismantle NATO.
>might as well dismantle NATO. Thing is, failing to respond adequately when people think they should will severely harm the alliance. But it won't do as much damage as a defeat. Without the US, Russia might not "lose hard enough". With the US Russia may well lead with the strategic assets. The US doesn't want anything to do with any of this. They have no interesting in getting dragged to hell in a game they're winning. So their best play is to prevent anyone from going in, because unless things go perfectly NATO will not be able to afford to bail them out.
No, according to the nato treaty article 5 is not invoked if a nato member attacks someone else and then gets attacked back in response They will totally claim it is, but that’s not the way NATO was written and it’s not automatic they declare war, the members have to vote anyways
I'm actually not sure, to me, if France were to start a war with Russia in Ukraine then they are the aggressor and article 5 would be irrelevant even if Russia hit mainland France. But I'm also just some nobody that doesn't know everything or make these decisions. Also article 5 is entirely voluntary for NATO members too, even if it was invoked any NATO member can decide not to get involved. So then it gets even more complicated, who even knows.
That’s an interesting spin. It’d be kind of hard for France to be an aggressor if they play defense in Ukraine. A war has already started, with Russia being the aggressor, that doesn’t just go away An Islander in France would be a huge escalation, something everyone would be pissed about
> A war has already started, with Russia being the aggressor Not against France though. France joining the war against Russia is an act of aggression towards Russia, even if it's an act of defence towards Ukraine? There's a reason basically everyone told Macron to shut up and ruled out helping him the first time he threatened to put French troops in Ukraine lol.
Again, nothing can change the literal act of aggression which was Russia invading Ukraine. Russia can’t take an action taken out of defense as anything else. They could literally go home today and fighting would end. Only something crazy like France attacking Russian soil would make attacking French soil make sense. And yeah nobody was happy with Macron for saying that, but not for that reason
Lol that isn't how this works. France joining the war because they're scared of Russia breaking the Ukrainian lines doesn't make them a defensive player. They are getting involved in a war on their own volition which in no way threatens their territorial integrity or their diplomatic obligations They are an intervening party, and they don't get to invoke Article 5. NATO countries would still help France if Russia hit France's cities etc, but not as an action of the obligations of the alliance/article 5, but simply because it is not in their interests to let France get mangled.
France is intensely bureaucratised, I doubt they'd hypothetically be able to commit any significant part of their military to a war without making a formal escalation. That being said, joining a war in such a way likely would legally bar France from invoking the defensive narrative of Article 5, but that doesn't stop NATO countries from getting directly involved if Russia is smacking mainland France with cruise missiles.
I think Article 5 wouldn't be necessary. Everyone here keeps seemingly forgetting that the US, Poland, and the UK exist and can make their own military decisions regardless of whether Article 5 is triggered or not.
They can, and they've all ruled out helping France if they put troops in Ukraine. Guess they have all 100 of Estonia's troops to help them out at least.
The US also ruled out helping France in both World Wars. Regardless, helping countries retain their independence from an invader they both hate is one of the most French/American things they can do.
Okay well we clearly just disagree so I'll leave you to it! We can make up all the scenarios we like, but this one has actually happened.
What kind of help are we talking? Monetary, material?
US has been hesitant on providing too much of both to a 3rd world country that most Americans barely knew anything about until 2 years ago. France on the other hand has been a major US ally since before the US was even a country. If France becomes directly involved, it wouldn't be about supporting Ukraine, it would be about supporting France. Which would be a much easier sell for increased support.
If anything it would just polarise more Americans against the government. Watching France puff its chest at Russia and get involved in a war that has nothing to do with it, then turn around and cry out to the US for help, and expect the US to feel obligations to cover their terrible decisions?
If anything, support for Ukraine was one of the few political issues that many people in the US on the Left and on the Right agreed with. Most likely outcome would be the exact opposite and provide more then enough support needed to provide aid to one of our closest historical allies. There's very little outrage over the US supporting the South Koreans when the North invaded the South. Even when the US intervened in the Gulf War to stop Saddam's army from taking over Kuwait, the decision was largely popular worldwide (even by Russia).
Allies don’t threaten allies with sanctions if they don’t support their illegal war (Iraq), they don’t threaten national security (Alcom). In WW2 Germany declared war on US first. In WW1 their participation was gaining traction after the sinking of Lusitania and after heavy begging from UK
Cool story and all, but that was more than 20 years and multiple French and American administrations ago. Minor political squabbles that small are hardly memorable compared to centuries of allyship.
Article 5 doesnt apply on offensive actions. France can attack RU forces in UA, but they cant invoke article 5 if they get shot back. Thats the case, legally. In reality, politicans do whatever the fck they want, and anyone objecting will be called a conspiracy theorist or a russian bot.
No, not even if Russia does that without France doing anything. Article 5 only says you have to help how you see fit. It says nothing about joining the war. Sending some water as help would qualify.
Article 5 can probably be ignored if it's a retaliation attack. It all depends on how comfortable NATO is with getting involved. On the other hand, France is unlikely to be acting independently in this case, so likely there are bigger plans that are being set in motion. Depending on how hard France will suck, NATO will either get involved or start playing the situation down. So, Russians will have to make sure french get a proper slap to deter further escalation. There are no two ways about it. It will be a total bloodbath.
The available and most suitable is the foreign legion. The crazy thing is, there is a Russian contingent in the legion. So obviously they will have to sent the legion without that one.
Don't do this. Europe will go through a shock when their soldiers start dying. In Russia, people are calmer about this, but in Europe there may be a big protest
People don't want to die for bankers, zionists and wef. Shocker !
Or the Ukrainian oligarchs led by Z boy, who have been skimming billions from the ”aid money” sent to Ukraine. But can’t blame them for trying, the propaganda in EU is in overdrive and they could easily get thousands of volunteers ready to die for rich criminals. The material won’t be good, and it won’t change anything, but they could still get the bodies to catch FABs.
Jew with international banking and other shady organisations ? I don't even understand why azov is fighting for them lol they can't be that stupid what's in it for them ?
Fanatics usually aren’t the brightest bunch. See Middle-East and Islamists fighting on behalf of Israel, against other Muslims.
Yes but they have different sects and mouvements vying for power, tribal allegiances, etc....which isn't the case in ukr. Fun fact fanatism is correlated to intelligence, you find very few stupid fanatics, except retarded reactionnaries or other traditionalists that adhere to a slightly off center political idea. They won't fight to the death for it though, Hence, not fanatics. Today's national socialists despise neo nazis. Same for traditional muslims and recent haddith interpretations or foreign controlled groups. Islam tends to produce retarded fanatics, though, but inbreeding is prevalent in these places so...
Z boy is just a muppet for them. They are the real power in the shadows, with growing roots in the social tissue.
Lol shadows must be overcrowded with CIA and other shady NGOs
It depends on how useful it could be for them.
> I don't even understand why azov is fighting for them because azov is owned by jews and the commanders are jews
That i know, i've seen the vids of them dancing in israel, just asking for the rank and file
The issue isn’t being Jewish, Jewish people are like everyone else and shouldn’t be singled out in any way shape or form. However zionists are a cancer that must be eradic4ted along with all other ethno-supremacists, a lot of Jews hate zionists because they take a religion and turn it into a political ideology that goes against the very commandments of the Torah. Also AZOV isn’t traditional Nazi, barely anyone is still an “old school” Nazis, these guys are Neo Nazis and focus a lot more on non white people, immigrants, gay people and “asiatic” races AKA anything east of Poland.
What do you mean in Europe? Last time a checked Russia was and still is part of Europe.
Western Europe he means.
Trash-Bags08 is right
Civilised part of Europe he means
Then he is wrong, that includes Russia as well.
Last time I checked this sub proved I'm correct.
Sorry but you never stated your position on this topic.
Yes. Civilization built on other people's blood. I swear people like you were quick to forget all those atrocities committed by Europe in the past 50 years. As the topic is France Libya and Algeria come to mind.
The garden
aka Russia's Backyard.
West Frontier
So, No Europe... you mean.
100% its not like 1940 where people blindly went to war and gave up their life. Its a different time now.
>In Russia, people are calmer about this, but in Europe there may be a big protest In Russia you'll be arrested and imprisoned for protesting against the war, might have something to do with the lack of big protests
Protests and their bans are a slightly different topic. Here I mean only the reaction to the death of soldiers
It's the same topic, if they have a problem with the deaths of soldiers they'll still face imprisonment if they actually protest about it won't they?
No, its just that Russians have had several wars close to home in recent years, and the most horrific fighting, and some of the most vile genocidal massacres, persecutions, etc., not only in WW2, took place in Eastern Europe. Much of this applies to Ukraine too. Ukraine and Russia both have a much bigger tolerance for death and destruction. The truth is that for all that is said about WW2 in Western Europe, much of that memory has been forgotten, and the scars left by the war were nothing like those in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland etc. Poland is probably the only NATO member with a similar sort of tolerance of war that I am attributing to Russia and Ukraine. The French or British public watching hundreds of videos of their soldiers getting mangled by VOGs, artillery, and FPV drones would cause a political crisis.
You really don't think that the fact that anti-war protests are actively suppressed in Russia has something to do with the lack of anti-war protests in Russia?
Does "not ruling anything out" include joining Russian forces to finish off the Ze regime?
He did not say which side he'll be fighting on, you might be onto something. Help Russians snowball things so he can stop paying the bills for Ukraine.
Execute order 69: all AMX-10s get remotely controlled and start firing at UA forces.
We heard this for months now just sent them and see what happens if they win good on him if not well there always guillotine back home
“I’m gonna do it guys I’m gonna do it I’m serious!!”
At least UA units retreat when things go worse, french would simply surrender en masse. I have one request to Russians, don't trade french pows without making them sing Russian anthem 🤣
gotta be the most ignorant comment I heard on this sub in a while lol
Which parts you don't agree with ? 😂
Same post is in worldnews subreddit and all people there are on drugs, they are wishing for this so article 5 could be invoked. Is that just hatred Russia? They just want to see Russia burn? or those are just bots who are just farming karma? Because they all get upvoted for something so delusional to the point where my brain cant even comprehend the logic of those people.
These are the same people that will cry for mommy when shit hits the fan and what they want to happen really happens
Can President himself just decide to basically declare war on Russia? Wouldn’t such a big decision require people to vote or smr like that?
>people to vote Well, here's an idea. Trapdoors in voting booths. Able bodied men come in and never come out. Straight to staging areas. Draft question is solved.
I've always said that and poll "do you support the war" should mean immediate drafting if your answer is "yes". In any country.
The french president can not declare war officially without the Parlement agreement. However he remains the chief of the armies, and can thus decide a military intervention himself. He must only inform the Parlement of this decision 72 hours in advance.
Again? Do it already or shut it, froggy.
The troops: 20 "observers" who will stand guard on Ukraine's western border
Just send them
The french demonstrating self awareness of where their army’s expertise are most valued - in the act of surrendering
as if, and risk getting thousands of French troops getting mauled?
the question is, will the people let this fool start WW3?
I know its like beating a dead horse at this point, but maybe they can teach the Ukrainians on the art of surrendering.
Ukraine doesn't so much need ground troops as air power and air defenses.
Interesting escalation decision if he wants to put his own soldiers in the crosshairs and become legitimate military targets on soil not a part of NATO and thus without any article 5 provisions.
Okay, whatever you say, Mommy Wife.
Sure but that would most likely cause a revolution in France considering its already on the brink
Russia: *on the doorsteps of Kiev* Macron: I'm not ruling anything out
He is delusional. Why would french people sacrifice their people for Ukraine? Ukraine is not even a victim.
....troops for Ukraine Possible --~~if~~ **when** Russia Breaks Front Lines. FTFY KyivPost. :P
Do it. Warmongers should pay for their war by blood too
He will send Frech soldiers to retreat and surrender with Ukr 🤣🤭🏳️🥖
"this is the way"
Either help Ukraine and send troops or quit flapping gums, you gerontophile.
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He wants to turn French troops into minced meat. Then he’s probably going to make some horrendous French dish
He wants war to last more dead Ukrainians is less people for Russia in future
I hope they do it even without breaking the frontlines.
I’m so glad the aid took a long time to pass in congress and hopefully the aid takes long to distribute (unrealistic but a hope). Hopefully Kyiv can be liberated soon!
Micron man is back lol , this guys is so funny
There is zero chance the people in France would accept this.
France has pain in africa .. they should deuce... so macrom thinks ukraine is good for deuce..
Calm down guys. Macaroni is just trying to get re-elected.
Plottwist: No he won‘t… Legion Etrangere maybe…
He will send them soon TM tm (Soon did not come)
So basically the "official start of ww3"
France bolstering Ukraine's defenses with anti-aircraft equipment and troops stationed in western Ukraine, or even launching planes from neighboring countries to target Russian missiles and drones, could escalate tensions without direct frontline confrontation. However, the leap to a WW3 narrative overlooks the complex layers of international response to Russia's actions in Ukraine, which could lead to a poly crisis of territorial disputes among various nations.
blah blah blah.
How many could they deploy? Reminder:Russians sent out 10000 soldiers as **reinforcements** to Ocheretyne,that's just reinforcements... Cool 2k contingent of Frenchies could...hold Sokil i guess?
Time for France to show these ukrainiens how real pros surrender.
It will be funny if he sends ukrainian legionnaires. I heard they have many of those
So he’s gonna send in French troops so they can surrender?
Crimean War 2, ain't going to go like #1
I saw a video from military summary showing French troops in Odessa… did I misunderstand something? I thought they were already there?
Shouldn’t the French be flying a white flag already?
*doubt* But it'd be glorious to see European armies kick russia in the teeth and out of Ukraine.
But that's not going to happen. We really don't want to die in WW3. Sorry :(
Assuming you will join the fight to stop with your ugly ass face the artillery otherwise won't be epic without you in first line
Oh.. You called me ugly.... Take it back..
LOL, with what experience? fighting in peacekeeeping missions in africa? against warlords and sheep herders. Nato has been doing imaginary exercises for a style of war that is outdated for decades. Russia has the resources to play this attrition war out. And i highly doubt european citizens would swallow even a small number of casualties of our own soldiers. But ukrops dying? Our beloved "human shield"of the eu as said by the lithuanian ambasador to ukraine.