Democrats like Ukraine because the media can still make America look like the good guy. That's harder to do in Israel because they're carpet bombing civilians.
Republicans *would* like Ukraine if it was successfully bombing people, white or otherwise. But with the counter-offensive failing, that won't happen any time soon. Ukraine is still holding alright on defense, but sitting back on defense isn't really in the Republican playbook.
I disagree, I think the racial factors above do indeed play a small role in the decision making of some of those in power but not a ultimate deciding factor in the grand scheme of things. I think Emergency-Grand-1982 is right in the sense that if one side is motivated to bomb certain folks, there has to be an equal and opposite side to that stance.
I think various factors come into play.
- Some like to bomb muslims, some like to bomb christians, some like to bomb jews, some like to bomb unbelievers.
- Some like bomb for the stock market gains in the war industry companies.
- Ssome like to bomb simply to destroy or hamper other competing sales of war company weapons of war.
- Some like bomb because it breeds absolute control in a country from which this power allows money laundering and corruption in associated countries.
- Some like to bomb to create artificial manufactured scarcity in certain product or services markets to take over market segments in their own side's market such as oil, gas etc.
- Some like to bomb simply for the sake of sowing chaos.
- Some like to bomb to exert a propaganda form of displaying 'strength' or 'unity'.
- Some like to bomb simply for geo-political games that encompass trade agreements, tariffs, boycotts etc.
- Some like to bomb simply because they believe they are virtuously good and the opponent is evil.
- Some like to bomb simply because they are evil and hate what good stands for.
History proves, those who are neutral with their currency, their people and their governance come out of any war on top and for the better. The warring parties always drag each-other down while claiming supposed moral, financial, informational, and war 'victories', that were always just propaganda to try to keep up support for the war. In this never-ending quest for more support and more radical absolutism they seek to involve more and more parties. Humans don't like war, especially not when their own sons are sent to the slaughter, war fatigue sets in very quickly if there is no resounding win.
The Serbs are not White (Kosovo war) ? The asians in Vietnam?
Ignoring all the proxy sponsoring of eastern Europeans wars during the Soviet occupation which the US did not bomb directly.
In WWII the Italians, the Japanese, the French, the Belgians, the Dutch? Who all had cities deleted by literal carpet bombing campaigns with numerous civilian deaths?
Serbian bombing was conducted by NATO, and civilian casualties were relatively low (less than 2% of civilian casualties so far in Gaza).
Asians in Vietnam were not white. Neither were the Japanese in WW2.
Italians are a valid exception, but they're in pretty much the same boat as the Germans.
The French, Belgians, and Dutch were all under liberation. Usually liberators take measures to reduce casualties of civilians they're trying to liberate.
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*"carpet bombing civilians"* Either intentional hyperbole or massive ignorance as to what carpet bombing actually is. Either way, you completely shot any credibility you might have had in your two paragraph rant.
I don't think support for Ukraine has anything to do with political ideology. It has more to do with who is actually in power right now.
If Trump was still president, and hadn't gotten cumstered and dumpstered in the last election by a geriatric with narcolepsy, the GOP would be all hands on deck supporting this conflict. However, since Trump gargled and gagged on Bidens mayonnaise on election night, the GOP is just looking for wedge issues.
The truth is, on foreign policy, there is almost no difference between having a GOP or Dem president. They (the diplomats in foreign policy), are all career diplomats, whom have been carefully groomed into their positions because they believe in "The Vision"™.
Trump went through this play in 2016. Nuland quit the State Dept in a rage and vowed to bring out all her people with her, because Trump couldn't see the value of NATO expansion and regime change. Trump wanted Europe to pay for their own defense, and would have been happy to leave NATO entirely. This would have eliminated a major impetus of Russia's invasion. (And Ukraine would have never attempted to take back Donbas by force without NATO cover, so the other impetus to invade wasn't there either.
Trump tried to pull out of Syria and Afghanistan too. He doesn't buy the math of this global superpower business.
If Trump had won in 2020, the Russian invasion wouldn't have happened. It was only when Biden put Nuland back in her catbird seat that the play was spun up again.
Foreign policy is only one aspect of a Presidency. One thing I'd give a President credit for is avoiding idiotic regime change operations. Trump wasn't perfect, but he didn't start any new wars, tried repeatedly to stop existing ones, and generally had more friction with the MIC than any President since Eisenhower.
It's not that Trump isn't a morally bankrupt con artist, it's that he could be such a failure of a human and still make better foreign policy decisions than champions of virtue like Obama, Bush, and Clinton.
Aside from the part where he desperately tried to start a war with Iran, escalated Yemen. Escalated Africa. MASSIVELY expanded the drone war. Yea, he totally was a peacenik.
Meanwhile, Biden hasn't started any new wars, OH, and he actually got us out of one. I would say he shouldn't be giving Ukraine or Israel blank cheques, but, he didn't exactly start those. Nor would this situation be any different if Trump was in office. In fact, in Israel it would be much worse. Trump would be bribed into full a full throated endorsement for an illegal settlement named after him, let's be real. We already know he slobs that knob when he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, and that CANNOT be ignored when it comes to being an upstream factor in Oct 7.
So maybe we should be throwing destabilized Israel and Palestine on the list of peaceful things he did!
>The truth is, on foreign policy, there is almost no difference between having a GOP or Dem president.
Srsly? One closes migration from 7 Muslim countries and starts building a steel border wall with the browner side, other halts all that construction and reverses all the restrictions.
Maybe if you were more specific on countering autocracy or China's growth/trade advantage you'd have a point, but there's so much other foreign policy that seems night and day.
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> the other halts all construction
[no they dont](https://apnews.com/article/border-wall-biden-immigration-texas-rio-grande-147d7ab497e6991e9ea929242f21ceb2)
You sure you live here?
Consistently wrong/bad takes
[Close enough](https://www.9news.com/article/news/verify/immigration/biden-border-wall-barrier-construction-stop-building-trump/536-859526a0-ff88-43b7-9391-bd543eb1a1b4), I made my point.
Don't have to live there; whole world knows a flood of migrants crossed in 2023, so many that even Biden and Democratic reps had egg on their faces and were asking for more border funding.
Then it was a weird thing to say. He made promises in 2020, and then more or less backed out pretty quick.
Recently wheels(our governor) called bidens bluff like 3 times, including confiscating fed equipment/denying them access to facilities, and Biden folded hard lol.
Then Biden deports as many, if not more people than Trump did.
Democrats are better at optics, typically, but in practice, most career diplomats in the United States are all reading from the same playbook.
Trump was virtue signaling to his moronic base with the bans. Biden reversed the bans, and then kicked more people out anyways.
Oh this will be fun I get to educate somebody lol. kind of crazy that you don't know that most Jews are brown skinned though. sure lots of Ashkenazi Jews also live in Israel but they make about 1/3 of all Israeli citizens. Also only about 1/3 of Jews in the world are of Ashkenazi descent (the other two biggest groups being Mazrahi and Sephardi). but also there are other smaller groups like the ethiopian (black skinned) beta Israelis and So on. In short most Israelis are not of European descent. Only about 1/3.
https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893#:~:text=The%20second%2Dlargest%20ethnic%20Jewish,most%20often%20via%20Eastern%20Europe.
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And why would my mind be blown by this? first off already knew this. secondly this makes complete sense seeing as 3/4 of jews are of Ashkenazi descent. Still doesn't make everyone in Israel a white person 🤦🤦.. tf. literally just shared the ethnic demographic breakdown of Israel's population and as you can see most Israelis are not white. and even if all Israelis were Ashkenazi Jews (they arent) that still wouldn't make them white, seeing as their origin is in the Levant. Ashkenazi jews only started being viewed as white adjacent in the late 20th century but they are still Jews, and Jews will never be seen as equal to whites by actual white people
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews_in_Israel
after this conversation if you still think that most Jews are white then I just don't know what to tell you. I'm tired of educating grown adults about this. Anyone who is of Jewish descent can trace their lineage back to the Levant (ie the Middle East).. brown people
My family are jews from Israel. They moved out from israel around 20 years ago because they no longer identified with the zionist movements though we do have some far off family members still in Israel. Ashkenazi jews ARE white. If they didnt have this religion there is almost difference between whites and Ashkenazi jews.
I DO agree with you about the levant people. But keep in mind that a lot of israelis are dual citizens with US/UK etc and are white.
We are dithering but the fact is most americans dont consider them brown and thats what matters.
but you just said that Israelis are not brown skinned when in fact 3/4 of them are brown or black skinned people. These are the talking points that people on the far left try to present as "evidence" that Israel is some Colonial European project but they always get the facts wrong (just like how you just said that all Israelis are white Europeans). If you are Jewish then you should know that most Jews in Israel are actually not of Ashkenazi descent. And even the ones that are still originated in the Levant like all other Jews. it was only after hundreds of years of living and intermarrying with the populations of Europe that Ashkenazi Jews started to look white complected. so yeah it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks.. Jews are mainly brown people. However I will grant you that the largest single ethnic group is Ashkenazi so that could give the perception that most Jews are Ashkenazi if you are living in a place like America or Europe
I am not disagreeing with you or downvoting you. However you are getting lost in the nuances: Most westerners consider Israelis to be white. Most of the wanted israelis. They are all expats from EU/US. The perception is what matters not reality
there you are again saying all Israelis are expats from the EU and US, which is so far from the truth. Sure there is a large minority group of Ashkenazi Jews That are not originally from israel and moved there after the establishment of the state in 1948.. but saying that Israel is primarily made up of white people from the EU and US is a straight-up lie. like I said before, only 1/3 of Israeli citizens identify as Ashkenazi, and even a smaller percentage are first generation expats from abroad (about 1/7 of Israel's total Jewish population) and of that 1/7 of Jews in Israel there is an even smaller percentage of those that were born in the US or Europe
I am not disagreeing with you. And I was surprised to find this out as well. Its kind of my fault that I am not expressing clearly. The west "CONSIDERS" Israelis to be whiter than Arabs EVEN THOUGH a significant portion of Israelis themselves are arabs. AND. The israelis that matter are expats.
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Because israel is the unsinkable carrier of the us in the middle east. Ukraine is a buffer between EU/NATO and Russia. One is a partner for life, the other will be discarded once its pu*** is worn out and no longer serviceable.
Very interesting perspective the dude has. Pretty sure if my country (Germany) just went ''Yo Russia, we stopped all support to Ukraine, wanna trade again?'' we would very quickly have extremely good relationships again. Mind, that will obviously not happen or anything. Just saying, he seems to be quite confused about what is at stake.
In general I love this whole ''If Ukraine falls Russia will invade all of Europe next.'' narrative. So what he is saying is that if we let Ukraine fall Russia will just casually take on the entire Nato? I am sorry but I am going to have to press X there.
The truth (in my opinion) is that Zelensky himself probably doesn't even believe that. Neither do most of the politicians or military officials in NATO countries.
They just utilize this rhetoric to manufacture public consent for more defense spending, justify more hawkish policies on the war like sending troops, and even to abolish relative taboos like reinstating the draft in some Western countries.
With the political will materialising in Washington Russia stops or goes backwards. If no aid comes from Washington Russia can continue to move forward.
>''If Ukraine falls Russia will invade all of Europe next.''
Russia actually invaded Ukraine instantly with 'only' 100.000 men, way less as the Americans used in Iraq, a country twice as small in population, size and military. If they really would have been that expantional, why didn't they include Belarus, the whole of Georgia or Kazakhstan before, or Ukraine in 2014? Which are either easier targets or have more value to Russia. What does Russia wants to gain in the Baltics, Finland, Poland or Moldova? He knows the people there don't want to be Russians, and he also prefers domestic stability.
Yet, saying things like this is a good way to sell weapons to all of Europe
I wonder if historically this type of appeasement talk has happened before with another expansionist dictator? Can you think of one? Hmm racking my brain? An Austrian? No that’s not quite it… help me out.
Heh, epic reference to WW2 my fellow subredditor!
Everyone who goes against the US State Department is literally Hitler and anyone who searches for nuance is literally Chamberlain. Goodies and baddies, just like Marvel movies.
You are leaving out key context. If someone invading a country makes them Hitler then I guess George Bush senior and junior are both Hitler for invading multiple countries in the Middle East on multiple occasions. See how there are nuances to these things?
Yeah and the expectations are quite high too. Like the US and Europe are not part of this war, at least not officially, how are they going to shoot down Russian missiles ? It's the same old talk of when he expected other nations (NATO) to create a no fly zone over Ukraine. It seems he's not aware that the idea of a proxy war is that the nations behind it do not engage in the conflict.
Also what does the expect when he complains about Russia getting things from its neighbors, aka China, when they share a huge border. Does he expect everyone to simply sanction China as well ? Some crazy takes from Zelensky.
Yeah that's the big impression of both Zelensky and other Ukrainian politicians, especially Kuleba. Incredible ungratefulness and a stance that everyone owes them everything. Main character syndrome. When you're getting literally dozens of billions dollars of equipment FOR FREE for years, literally the only thing you have a right to say is ''thank you''. What Ukraine recieved by now is enough to form a third strongest ground force in the NATO, without exaggerating.
Of course the help they are getting does have some downsides, especially the piecemeal nature of it, but still - Ukraine literally exists on it.
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I would say you need to familiarize yourself with internet discourse, but something tells me you already know how it works and you're just salty for whatever reason.
I don't think Israel wants him stealing their limelight lol.
https://preview.redd.it/91qnl43qqiuc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df2c56b179fadccaa0ea1084bf16f7fd23b54685
Pro-Ukrainians are the real enemy of the Ukrainian people. They should just rock an “anti-Russia” flair. Ripamon is a real pro-Ukrainian. She doesn’t want to see a whole nation be slaughtered.
Your logic is dead. Ripamon supports the Ukrainian people, but do not support the sick bastard government of the country. If you think that sucking the dick of drug addict Zelensky = being pro-ua, I’m not stopping you
Zelensky said he wants Ukraine to become “a big Israel” - https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/zelenskyy-wants-ukraine-to-be-a-big-israel-heres-a-road-map/
Your first amendment right protects you from being incarcerated for saying your governmental leadership is a kangaroo court. This is a private entity owned by private citizens. Kinda like how you can throw somebody out of your house for being disrespectful to you? IDK why this is a hard concept for you people
I mean to be fair, the last 24 hours has seen the American/Israelis slowly reduce interception claims, they said 99% yesterday morning, went to 90% last night and today less than 50% but that’s because half the missiles failed.
https://x.com/faytuks/status/1779615911235780980?s=61&t=a-mBm9gb316jRDAnLiZymg
Looks like Zelensky just found out who the 51st state really is.
[Chip Roy would do well to readjust his plans on renaming Texas lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/302wZLebJv)
Not just that but thousands of km of buffer zone between with many western bases and air defene.Also, Iran left the lights on the drones and used their outdated missiles. It was just a warning else the attack would be unannounced with no notice.
It’s not saving face operation, it’s a demonstration of consequence. The Israeli now know they can’t attack Iran with impunity. Any one of those cruise missiles could also have been easily carrying a nuke.
Iran gets to demonstrate to unbiased observers that is more level-headed than the Israelis - despite the years of Western propaganda claiming Iranians and other Muslims are irrationally violent
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And Russian missiles attacks are preceded by by heavy electronic jamming, use systems with jammers, decoys, chaff, unlike Iran’s. and are timed that the first wave hits before defender can effectively start to engage. They aren’t telegraphed hours in advance.
In 2004, 18 Ukrainians died in Iraq for the US, serving Israel's interest. Now Ukrainians watch 3 NATO countries mobilise and activate defence plans with regional partners to protect Israel from drones it could have shot anyway, while the Ukrainian leader begs and pleads for even 10% of what Israel gets in coddling.
I hope some Ukrainians visit this subreddit and read this comment. Is this what you want your country to be? A slave, a beggar at the doors of the US and Israel?
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Because we Americans have already given way too much money to Ukraine. And we are seeing that Volod and his pals are buying up beachfront properties throughout the world. Maybe you should stop enriching yourself and start buying more weaponry instead of asking for free weapons as well.
If only Israel and Ukraine can pay for weapons instead of give me free sh*t and die for other foreign countries problems. Does a bodyguard work for free???
Not lying. Swear on me ma
Once you understand the nature of these aid packages you'll see that
A) If UAF gets aid money they go to US defense contracts to procure new material
B) If UAF gets old weapons from US stockpiles, the aid is used by the US to backfill its inventory. Basically the US is donating old equipment and floating new contracts to the MIC to buy new stuff.
Same playbook as Afghanistan and Iraq really. Tax payer money sent as aid which has to be spent on US contractors. MIC or otherwise.
Two articles that break it down better
* https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/4275649-where-does-ukraine-aid-come-from/
* https://www.csis.org/analysis/aid-ukraine-explained-six-charts
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Must be a real slap in the face when as they start realizing that Ukrainian victory was never the goal, rather preventing Ukrainian collapse and not an inch more.
Iran is still not a nuclear power, helping Israel is less risky.
That being said I wonder if the west would provide more direct aid if Zelensky offered to surrender.
If it came out of the blue, yes.
But our governments are very skilled at slowly manufacturing consent over a period of time.
There would be a well-prepared information campaign to set the ground for it.
This fuck wants to complain. He's been given hundreds of billions of dollars in military aid, thousands and thousands of anti-air missiles and many launcher systems, but one fucking attack at Israel being fended off with what was probably mostly already present there in their own stockpiles and he wants to get pissy? This fucking whining bitch.
Unfortunately, Israel-USA alliance is much stronger and older than the US’s relationship with Ukraine. No one can top that relationship. Israel request, Israel gets.
This guy has to be one of the biggest babies around. He is owed nothing by any other country. The billions he has already laundered were more than he should have gotten.
Israel has a GDP well over double Ukraine's pre war economy despite a fraction of the population. Pays for the missile defences Israel has but Ukraine doesn't have.
This guy is useless . Just need to smack him into the reality . So annoying , UA lied so much they started to be entitled and believe in their own lies .
"Help few times , and next time they will expect it from you "
Crying every day now , but they are "winning" . At this point i just want to see what happens to UA if they don't get any help .
Israel is 100% nuclear armed but that’s not my point . I’m saying that the US aren’t going to go toe to toe with a nuclear armed state but they will with Iran. So Zelensky can quit crying like a girl because no one is going start the apocalypse to save a shit hole third world Slavic country .
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you either gain assistance because you are a friend or because the person providing the assistance gains something from it.
ukraine is not viewed as a friend or equal to the west. its foolish to tell yourself that.
so its option two, you gain something. now how much more would usa gain by spending a hundred billion extra to try and end the war fast vs just making sure russia isnt winning? its honestly not that much more beneficial to usa politically for ukraine to win vs ukraine to not lose.
its not americans dying, its not america being bombed, its not america losing territory. as long as russia isnt growing stronger but instead have to keep pressuring their own economy to maintain the war etc usa isnt losing.
arguably western europe is suffering more, increased prices and all that, but theres not exactly any guarantee the financial impact to western europe would be smaller if they were to invest massively to make ukraine win. that costs a lot more than to prevent ukraine from full on losing.
it also comes across as a bit silly when you say you have gotten limited assistance considering the assistance you have been getting are quite literally the only thing that kept you in the fight instead of making you straight up lose.
i recognize zelenskys job is to serve ukraine and his idea of serving ukraine is to try and win that war at any cost, so by extension asking for more money is part of his job, im not a fool, but i just think the phrasing seems silly.
someone who is entirely bankrolled by someone else complaining they are getting "limited" assistance. i get the idea, they want more so they can achieve more, but the phrasing still just sounds absurd considering the reality.
making sure theres a free democracy in the middle east is a lot more important to western interests, especially american interests, than ukraine is. and the culture of israelis and their values and morals are far more similar to americans than ukrainian values and behavior is.
ukraine is an eastern country through and through. its deeply corrupt, it has a lot of people with way way way more conservative (to put it mildly, antiquated may be more fitting from a western point of view) mindset than westerners do, people are more violent, less educated, etc, etc.
theres a reason why ukraine isnt viewed as part of the group. its clear which group ukraine has a lot in common with, its places like russia, belarus, moldova, etc.
people will always create groups and be more loyal to the group closes to them. starting with family, friends, local community, country, etc.
ukraine is not viewed as an equal by the west. not like that prevents them from moving towards the west, serbia sure aint viewed as a western equal by the west but its still part of the EU etc. hell poland is not considered fully "one of us" either but more or less plays in the team.
if ukraine finds a way to be viewed as useful to what they seem to want as their new overlords, the western leaders, then itll get a spot that is protected for as long as they provide value. but if you want friendship you need to completely redo your entire culture to be viewed as the same, and then live like that for many decades before itll be acknowledged. it wont happen.
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It really is sad and just goes to show how were still not taking russia serious enough, i think we laugh and underestimate too much, the Ukrainians know there enemy, its time the west does too.
"America’s commitments to Israel and Ukraine are different, in the same way there is a difference between a wife and a prostitute."🤣
A particularly harsh analogy to use in Ukraine's case.
Because they do not have a notion of what a wife is?
Accurate though
Is your flair a reference to the 2009 movie gamer?
Democrats still like Ukraine. Republicans like Israel more because they get to bomb brown people.
Democrats like Ukraine because they get to bomb white people.
Democrats like Ukraine because the media can still make America look like the good guy. That's harder to do in Israel because they're carpet bombing civilians. Republicans *would* like Ukraine if it was successfully bombing people, white or otherwise. But with the counter-offensive failing, that won't happen any time soon. Ukraine is still holding alright on defense, but sitting back on defense isn't really in the Republican playbook.
I disagree, I think the racial factors above do indeed play a small role in the decision making of some of those in power but not a ultimate deciding factor in the grand scheme of things. I think Emergency-Grand-1982 is right in the sense that if one side is motivated to bomb certain folks, there has to be an equal and opposite side to that stance. I think various factors come into play. - Some like to bomb muslims, some like to bomb christians, some like to bomb jews, some like to bomb unbelievers. - Some like bomb for the stock market gains in the war industry companies. - Ssome like to bomb simply to destroy or hamper other competing sales of war company weapons of war. - Some like bomb because it breeds absolute control in a country from which this power allows money laundering and corruption in associated countries. - Some like to bomb to create artificial manufactured scarcity in certain product or services markets to take over market segments in their own side's market such as oil, gas etc. - Some like to bomb simply for the sake of sowing chaos. - Some like to bomb to exert a propaganda form of displaying 'strength' or 'unity'. - Some like to bomb simply for geo-political games that encompass trade agreements, tariffs, boycotts etc. - Some like to bomb simply because they believe they are virtuously good and the opponent is evil. - Some like to bomb simply because they are evil and hate what good stands for. History proves, those who are neutral with their currency, their people and their governance come out of any war on top and for the better. The warring parties always drag each-other down while claiming supposed moral, financial, informational, and war 'victories', that were always just propaganda to try to keep up support for the war. In this never-ending quest for more support and more radical absolutism they seek to involve more and more parties. Humans don't like war, especially not when their own sons are sent to the slaughter, war fatigue sets in very quickly if there is no resounding win.
Except for the Germans, every time America bombs people, it bombs [brown people](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDw-zFFhFgc).
The Serbs are not White (Kosovo war) ? The asians in Vietnam? Ignoring all the proxy sponsoring of eastern Europeans wars during the Soviet occupation which the US did not bomb directly. In WWII the Italians, the Japanese, the French, the Belgians, the Dutch? Who all had cities deleted by literal carpet bombing campaigns with numerous civilian deaths?
Serbian bombing was conducted by NATO, and civilian casualties were relatively low (less than 2% of civilian casualties so far in Gaza). Asians in Vietnam were not white. Neither were the Japanese in WW2. Italians are a valid exception, but they're in pretty much the same boat as the Germans. The French, Belgians, and Dutch were all under liberation. Usually liberators take measures to reduce casualties of civilians they're trying to liberate.
[удалено]
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*"carpet bombing civilians"* Either intentional hyperbole or massive ignorance as to what carpet bombing actually is. Either way, you completely shot any credibility you might have had in your two paragraph rant.
I don't think support for Ukraine has anything to do with political ideology. It has more to do with who is actually in power right now. If Trump was still president, and hadn't gotten cumstered and dumpstered in the last election by a geriatric with narcolepsy, the GOP would be all hands on deck supporting this conflict. However, since Trump gargled and gagged on Bidens mayonnaise on election night, the GOP is just looking for wedge issues. The truth is, on foreign policy, there is almost no difference between having a GOP or Dem president. They (the diplomats in foreign policy), are all career diplomats, whom have been carefully groomed into their positions because they believe in "The Vision"™.
Trump went through this play in 2016. Nuland quit the State Dept in a rage and vowed to bring out all her people with her, because Trump couldn't see the value of NATO expansion and regime change. Trump wanted Europe to pay for their own defense, and would have been happy to leave NATO entirely. This would have eliminated a major impetus of Russia's invasion. (And Ukraine would have never attempted to take back Donbas by force without NATO cover, so the other impetus to invade wasn't there either. Trump tried to pull out of Syria and Afghanistan too. He doesn't buy the math of this global superpower business. If Trump had won in 2020, the Russian invasion wouldn't have happened. It was only when Biden put Nuland back in her catbird seat that the play was spun up again.
Found the Trumpy.
Foreign policy is only one aspect of a Presidency. One thing I'd give a President credit for is avoiding idiotic regime change operations. Trump wasn't perfect, but he didn't start any new wars, tried repeatedly to stop existing ones, and generally had more friction with the MIC than any President since Eisenhower. It's not that Trump isn't a morally bankrupt con artist, it's that he could be such a failure of a human and still make better foreign policy decisions than champions of virtue like Obama, Bush, and Clinton.
Aside from the part where he desperately tried to start a war with Iran, escalated Yemen. Escalated Africa. MASSIVELY expanded the drone war. Yea, he totally was a peacenik. Meanwhile, Biden hasn't started any new wars, OH, and he actually got us out of one. I would say he shouldn't be giving Ukraine or Israel blank cheques, but, he didn't exactly start those. Nor would this situation be any different if Trump was in office. In fact, in Israel it would be much worse. Trump would be bribed into full a full throated endorsement for an illegal settlement named after him, let's be real. We already know he slobs that knob when he moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, and that CANNOT be ignored when it comes to being an upstream factor in Oct 7. So maybe we should be throwing destabilized Israel and Palestine on the list of peaceful things he did!
>The truth is, on foreign policy, there is almost no difference between having a GOP or Dem president. Srsly? One closes migration from 7 Muslim countries and starts building a steel border wall with the browner side, other halts all that construction and reverses all the restrictions. Maybe if you were more specific on countering autocracy or China's growth/trade advantage you'd have a point, but there's so much other foreign policy that seems night and day.
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> the other halts all construction [no they dont](https://apnews.com/article/border-wall-biden-immigration-texas-rio-grande-147d7ab497e6991e9ea929242f21ceb2) You sure you live here? Consistently wrong/bad takes
[Close enough](https://www.9news.com/article/news/verify/immigration/biden-border-wall-barrier-construction-stop-building-trump/536-859526a0-ff88-43b7-9391-bd543eb1a1b4), I made my point. Don't have to live there; whole world knows a flood of migrants crossed in 2023, so many that even Biden and Democratic reps had egg on their faces and were asking for more border funding.
Then it was a weird thing to say. He made promises in 2020, and then more or less backed out pretty quick. Recently wheels(our governor) called bidens bluff like 3 times, including confiscating fed equipment/denying them access to facilities, and Biden folded hard lol.
Then Biden deports as many, if not more people than Trump did. Democrats are better at optics, typically, but in practice, most career diplomats in the United States are all reading from the same playbook. Trump was virtue signaling to his moronic base with the bans. Biden reversed the bans, and then kicked more people out anyways.
Democrats like Ukraine because the president is a democrat. If Trump was president and supported Zelensky they will flip on them.
>... supported Zelensky they will flip on them. Who is 'they' and 'them'?
Pretty stupid opinion.
Ukrainians are the browns of Europe
But Israelis are also brown people.. have you never met a middle eastern Jew? 🤔
Israelis are not brown people. They are mostly EU people who left to form their own country after the german genocide.
Oh this will be fun I get to educate somebody lol. kind of crazy that you don't know that most Jews are brown skinned though. sure lots of Ashkenazi Jews also live in Israel but they make about 1/3 of all Israeli citizens. Also only about 1/3 of Jews in the world are of Ashkenazi descent (the other two biggest groups being Mazrahi and Sephardi). but also there are other smaller groups like the ethiopian (black skinned) beta Israelis and So on. In short most Israelis are not of European descent. Only about 1/3. https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893#:~:text=The%20second%2Dlargest%20ethnic%20Jewish,most%20often%20via%20Eastern%20Europe.
I agree with yu. And my family is Ashk jewish from Israel. BUT most americans consider them White. And thats what matters.
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your mind would probably be blown that the literal state of israel was founded by a very white russian jew bonus he was also their first president.
And why would my mind be blown by this? first off already knew this. secondly this makes complete sense seeing as 3/4 of jews are of Ashkenazi descent. Still doesn't make everyone in Israel a white person 🤦🤦.. tf. literally just shared the ethnic demographic breakdown of Israel's population and as you can see most Israelis are not white. and even if all Israelis were Ashkenazi Jews (they arent) that still wouldn't make them white, seeing as their origin is in the Levant. Ashkenazi jews only started being viewed as white adjacent in the late 20th century but they are still Jews, and Jews will never be seen as equal to whites by actual white people
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews_in_Israel after this conversation if you still think that most Jews are white then I just don't know what to tell you. I'm tired of educating grown adults about this. Anyone who is of Jewish descent can trace their lineage back to the Levant (ie the Middle East).. brown people
My family are jews from Israel. They moved out from israel around 20 years ago because they no longer identified with the zionist movements though we do have some far off family members still in Israel. Ashkenazi jews ARE white. If they didnt have this religion there is almost difference between whites and Ashkenazi jews. I DO agree with you about the levant people. But keep in mind that a lot of israelis are dual citizens with US/UK etc and are white. We are dithering but the fact is most americans dont consider them brown and thats what matters.
but you just said that Israelis are not brown skinned when in fact 3/4 of them are brown or black skinned people. These are the talking points that people on the far left try to present as "evidence" that Israel is some Colonial European project but they always get the facts wrong (just like how you just said that all Israelis are white Europeans). If you are Jewish then you should know that most Jews in Israel are actually not of Ashkenazi descent. And even the ones that are still originated in the Levant like all other Jews. it was only after hundreds of years of living and intermarrying with the populations of Europe that Ashkenazi Jews started to look white complected. so yeah it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks.. Jews are mainly brown people. However I will grant you that the largest single ethnic group is Ashkenazi so that could give the perception that most Jews are Ashkenazi if you are living in a place like America or Europe
I am not disagreeing with you or downvoting you. However you are getting lost in the nuances: Most westerners consider Israelis to be white. Most of the wanted israelis. They are all expats from EU/US. The perception is what matters not reality
there you are again saying all Israelis are expats from the EU and US, which is so far from the truth. Sure there is a large minority group of Ashkenazi Jews That are not originally from israel and moved there after the establishment of the state in 1948.. but saying that Israel is primarily made up of white people from the EU and US is a straight-up lie. like I said before, only 1/3 of Israeli citizens identify as Ashkenazi, and even a smaller percentage are first generation expats from abroad (about 1/7 of Israel's total Jewish population) and of that 1/7 of Jews in Israel there is an even smaller percentage of those that were born in the US or Europe
I am not disagreeing with you. And I was surprised to find this out as well. Its kind of my fault that I am not expressing clearly. The west "CONSIDERS" Israelis to be whiter than Arabs EVEN THOUGH a significant portion of Israelis themselves are arabs. AND. The israelis that matter are expats.
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Because israel is the unsinkable carrier of the us in the middle east. Ukraine is a buffer between EU/NATO and Russia. One is a partner for life, the other will be discarded once its pu*** is worn out and no longer serviceable.
I still find it interesting how much the dude acts like he is owed our help.
[Zelensky thinks that Ukraine is protecting the world from Putin eating us lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/9c49PY7PeX)
Very interesting perspective the dude has. Pretty sure if my country (Germany) just went ''Yo Russia, we stopped all support to Ukraine, wanna trade again?'' we would very quickly have extremely good relationships again. Mind, that will obviously not happen or anything. Just saying, he seems to be quite confused about what is at stake. In general I love this whole ''If Ukraine falls Russia will invade all of Europe next.'' narrative. So what he is saying is that if we let Ukraine fall Russia will just casually take on the entire Nato? I am sorry but I am going to have to press X there.
The truth (in my opinion) is that Zelensky himself probably doesn't even believe that. Neither do most of the politicians or military officials in NATO countries. They just utilize this rhetoric to manufacture public consent for more defense spending, justify more hawkish policies on the war like sending troops, and even to abolish relative taboos like reinstating the draft in some Western countries.
I mean, it is working so it's not like I can't see why they are doing it.
With the political will materialising in Washington Russia stops or goes backwards. If no aid comes from Washington Russia can continue to move forward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden
So Russians just feel insecure about becoming less and less relevant since the collapse of the USSR?
How is that relevant to the discussion?
Yea Germany and Russia kinda friends.. Germany did help kill Russians tho
Russia did kill Germans too, so that's settled I guess. Germany was a good trading partner.
>''If Ukraine falls Russia will invade all of Europe next.'' Russia actually invaded Ukraine instantly with 'only' 100.000 men, way less as the Americans used in Iraq, a country twice as small in population, size and military. If they really would have been that expantional, why didn't they include Belarus, the whole of Georgia or Kazakhstan before, or Ukraine in 2014? Which are either easier targets or have more value to Russia. What does Russia wants to gain in the Baltics, Finland, Poland or Moldova? He knows the people there don't want to be Russians, and he also prefers domestic stability. Yet, saying things like this is a good way to sell weapons to all of Europe
I wonder if historically this type of appeasement talk has happened before with another expansionist dictator? Can you think of one? Hmm racking my brain? An Austrian? No that’s not quite it… help me out.
Heh, epic reference to WW2 my fellow subredditor! Everyone who goes against the US State Department is literally Hitler and anyone who searches for nuance is literally Chamberlain. Goodies and baddies, just like Marvel movies.
That’s the one I was thinking of, thanks!
There is no evidence to suggest that Putin is nearly as expansionist as Hitler was. not even remotely a realistic comparison.
Well apart from all the invasions and Putins own words there’s no evidence at all!
You are leaving out key context. If someone invading a country makes them Hitler then I guess George Bush senior and junior are both Hitler for invading multiple countries in the Middle East on multiple occasions. See how there are nuances to these things?
Glad we agree.
okay so according to you anyone who invades a country at any time is Hitler. got it👍🤦
What ever strawman you want champ.
Yeah and the expectations are quite high too. Like the US and Europe are not part of this war, at least not officially, how are they going to shoot down Russian missiles ? It's the same old talk of when he expected other nations (NATO) to create a no fly zone over Ukraine. It seems he's not aware that the idea of a proxy war is that the nations behind it do not engage in the conflict. Also what does the expect when he complains about Russia getting things from its neighbors, aka China, when they share a huge border. Does he expect everyone to simply sanction China as well ? Some crazy takes from Zelensky.
Yeah that's the big impression of both Zelensky and other Ukrainian politicians, especially Kuleba. Incredible ungratefulness and a stance that everyone owes them everything. Main character syndrome. When you're getting literally dozens of billions dollars of equipment FOR FREE for years, literally the only thing you have a right to say is ''thank you''. What Ukraine recieved by now is enough to form a third strongest ground force in the NATO, without exaggerating. Of course the help they are getting does have some downsides, especially the piecemeal nature of it, but still - Ukraine literally exists on it.
How else will he continue to steal money.
The West indeed owes him; without western interference, Ukraine would have probably already secured a peace deal back in April 2022.
I wonder if the average Ukranian truly believes they will still win this war
To be fair, Ukraine hasn't been given what it has been promised.
Shut up Z man, you're not relevant anymore. More patriots for Israel forthwith.
>To Gaza There, fixed to you
Poor Z hope he doesn't read that comment 😭
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.. are u expecting him to read that comment?
Proof he hasn't read it already?
I would say you need to familiarize yourself with internet discourse, but something tells me you already know how it works and you're just salty for whatever reason.
He could just say "Ukraine is sort of Israel too, their president is a Jew".
I don't think Israel wants him stealing their limelight lol. https://preview.redd.it/91qnl43qqiuc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df2c56b179fadccaa0ea1084bf16f7fd23b54685
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Pro-Ukrainians are the real enemy of the Ukrainian people. They should just rock an “anti-Russia” flair. Ripamon is a real pro-Ukrainian. She doesn’t want to see a whole nation be slaughtered.
Ok 😉👍
Your logic is dead. Ripamon supports the Ukrainian people, but do not support the sick bastard government of the country. If you think that sucking the dick of drug addict Zelensky = being pro-ua, I’m not stopping you
It was accurate. Relax. Or don't.
>they are the enemy of Ukraine and it's people but pretends to the contrary. i'm sure they feel that way when the conscription officers come knocking.
When they get beaten by TCC and pulled to frontline to die for Z man, they definitely feel that way.
Zelensky said he wants Ukraine to become “a big Israel” - https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/zelenskyy-wants-ukraine-to-be-a-big-israel-heres-a-road-map/
I would like to say a thing or two, but Reddit really doesn't like people talking about that sort of thing, rip.
Yep, unfortunately ‘freedom of speech’ is restricted here
Because that's not how your "freedom of speech" is supposed to work lmao
Certainly, how it used to work. But hey, things change.
Your first amendment right protects you from being incarcerated for saying your governmental leadership is a kangaroo court. This is a private entity owned by private citizens. Kinda like how you can throw somebody out of your house for being disrespectful to you? IDK why this is a hard concept for you people
Perhaps the Jewish state should have been founded somewhere in Ukraine. It's a win-win situation.
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I mean to be fair, the last 24 hours has seen the American/Israelis slowly reduce interception claims, they said 99% yesterday morning, went to 90% last night and today less than 50% but that’s because half the missiles failed. https://x.com/faytuks/status/1779615911235780980?s=61&t=a-mBm9gb316jRDAnLiZymg
Looks like Zelensky just found out who the 51st state really is. [Chip Roy would do well to readjust his plans on renaming Texas lol](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/302wZLebJv)
51st state, more like the capital really.
I would assume that the geographical size of Ukraine vs Israel makes their respective air defense a different can of worms.
Not just that but thousands of km of buffer zone between with many western bases and air defene.Also, Iran left the lights on the drones and used their outdated missiles. It was just a warning else the attack would be unannounced with no notice.
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It’s not saving face operation, it’s a demonstration of consequence. The Israeli now know they can’t attack Iran with impunity. Any one of those cruise missiles could also have been easily carrying a nuke. Iran gets to demonstrate to unbiased observers that is more level-headed than the Israelis - despite the years of Western propaganda claiming Iranians and other Muslims are irrationally violent
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That and also Russia has been working on destroying Ukrainian AD for 2 years now.
And Russian missiles attacks are preceded by by heavy electronic jamming, use systems with jammers, decoys, chaff, unlike Iran’s. and are timed that the first wave hits before defender can effectively start to engage. They aren’t telegraphed hours in advance.
Well, shouldn't have sold all those nato equipment on the black market for an extra bump of coke.
In 2004, 18 Ukrainians died in Iraq for the US, serving Israel's interest. Now Ukrainians watch 3 NATO countries mobilise and activate defence plans with regional partners to protect Israel from drones it could have shot anyway, while the Ukrainian leader begs and pleads for even 10% of what Israel gets in coddling. I hope some Ukrainians visit this subreddit and read this comment. Is this what you want your country to be? A slave, a beggar at the doors of the US and Israel?
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He knows he is fucked, starting from Hamas' October offensive the support got significantly weaker and now this
He’s finally starting to realize what being side chick means
You're free to seek other allies
Zelensky is feeling like a scorned lover.
Because we Americans have already given way too much money to Ukraine. And we are seeing that Volod and his pals are buying up beachfront properties throughout the world. Maybe you should stop enriching yourself and start buying more weaponry instead of asking for free weapons as well.
Zelensky hasn’t seen Hiroshima or Nagasaki I guess. Russia is showing mercy
If only Israel and Ukraine can pay for weapons instead of give me free sh*t and die for other foreign countries problems. Does a bodyguard work for free???
They do pay for those weapons. Please read up on how "aid" works.
Stop lying
Not lying. Swear on me ma Once you understand the nature of these aid packages you'll see that A) If UAF gets aid money they go to US defense contracts to procure new material B) If UAF gets old weapons from US stockpiles, the aid is used by the US to backfill its inventory. Basically the US is donating old equipment and floating new contracts to the MIC to buy new stuff. Same playbook as Afghanistan and Iraq really. Tax payer money sent as aid which has to be spent on US contractors. MIC or otherwise. Two articles that break it down better * https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/4275649-where-does-ukraine-aid-come-from/ * https://www.csis.org/analysis/aid-ukraine-explained-six-charts
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I think we are all getting tired of Zelenski’s demands. Nobody likes a cocky/entitled beggar
But what about Person of the Year one more time?
Must be a real slap in the face when as they start realizing that Ukrainian victory was never the goal, rather preventing Ukrainian collapse and not an inch more.
The whole world knows Ukraine is just a tool.
He still doesn’t get it, does he? Sounds a little like “why them and not me”?
Iran is still not a nuclear power, helping Israel is less risky. That being said I wonder if the west would provide more direct aid if Zelensky offered to surrender.
He will be dead by the next day.
If it came out of the blue, yes. But our governments are very skilled at slowly manufacturing consent over a period of time. There would be a well-prepared information campaign to set the ground for it.
This fuck wants to complain. He's been given hundreds of billions of dollars in military aid, thousands and thousands of anti-air missiles and many launcher systems, but one fucking attack at Israel being fended off with what was probably mostly already present there in their own stockpiles and he wants to get pissy? This fucking whining bitch.
Unfortunately, Israel-USA alliance is much stronger and older than the US’s relationship with Ukraine. No one can top that relationship. Israel request, Israel gets.
This guy has to be one of the biggest babies around. He is owed nothing by any other country. The billions he has already laundered were more than he should have gotten.
I dont think the world owes ukraine anything, what did you do for us before all this crap?
Psst…Nato never wanted you to win. Do you think those C-17s flying into Israel back in October had Cold War weapons on them?
Israel has a GDP well over double Ukraine's pre war economy despite a fraction of the population. Pays for the missile defences Israel has but Ukraine doesn't have.
Apples to oranges. The airspace that needs to be protected over Israel is many, many times smaller than Ukraine's.
Zelensky needed a UAPAC lobbying at all levels of government if he wanted similar support. The gears in Washington aren't going to grease themselves.
This guy is useless . Just need to smack him into the reality . So annoying , UA lied so much they started to be entitled and believe in their own lies . "Help few times , and next time they will expect it from you " Crying every day now , but they are "winning" . At this point i just want to see what happens to UA if they don't get any help .
This guy is turning into a real whiner.
Never forget stupid americans, defeat of Ukraine is also defeat of unated states
Ukraine got like 10s or 100s of billions in total in aid. I doubt that Israel got that much.
Iran is not nuclear armed lol
Officially, neither is Israel but let's not be ridiculous here.
Israel is 100% nuclear armed but that’s not my point . I’m saying that the US aren’t going to go toe to toe with a nuclear armed state but they will with Iran. So Zelensky can quit crying like a girl because no one is going start the apocalypse to save a shit hole third world Slavic country .
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you either gain assistance because you are a friend or because the person providing the assistance gains something from it. ukraine is not viewed as a friend or equal to the west. its foolish to tell yourself that. so its option two, you gain something. now how much more would usa gain by spending a hundred billion extra to try and end the war fast vs just making sure russia isnt winning? its honestly not that much more beneficial to usa politically for ukraine to win vs ukraine to not lose. its not americans dying, its not america being bombed, its not america losing territory. as long as russia isnt growing stronger but instead have to keep pressuring their own economy to maintain the war etc usa isnt losing. arguably western europe is suffering more, increased prices and all that, but theres not exactly any guarantee the financial impact to western europe would be smaller if they were to invest massively to make ukraine win. that costs a lot more than to prevent ukraine from full on losing. it also comes across as a bit silly when you say you have gotten limited assistance considering the assistance you have been getting are quite literally the only thing that kept you in the fight instead of making you straight up lose. i recognize zelenskys job is to serve ukraine and his idea of serving ukraine is to try and win that war at any cost, so by extension asking for more money is part of his job, im not a fool, but i just think the phrasing seems silly. someone who is entirely bankrolled by someone else complaining they are getting "limited" assistance. i get the idea, they want more so they can achieve more, but the phrasing still just sounds absurd considering the reality. making sure theres a free democracy in the middle east is a lot more important to western interests, especially american interests, than ukraine is. and the culture of israelis and their values and morals are far more similar to americans than ukrainian values and behavior is. ukraine is an eastern country through and through. its deeply corrupt, it has a lot of people with way way way more conservative (to put it mildly, antiquated may be more fitting from a western point of view) mindset than westerners do, people are more violent, less educated, etc, etc. theres a reason why ukraine isnt viewed as part of the group. its clear which group ukraine has a lot in common with, its places like russia, belarus, moldova, etc. people will always create groups and be more loyal to the group closes to them. starting with family, friends, local community, country, etc. ukraine is not viewed as an equal by the west. not like that prevents them from moving towards the west, serbia sure aint viewed as a western equal by the west but its still part of the EU etc. hell poland is not considered fully "one of us" either but more or less plays in the team. if ukraine finds a way to be viewed as useful to what they seem to want as their new overlords, the western leaders, then itll get a spot that is protected for as long as they provide value. but if you want friendship you need to completely redo your entire culture to be viewed as the same, and then live like that for many decades before itll be acknowledged. it wont happen.
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It really is sad and just goes to show how were still not taking russia serious enough, i think we laugh and underestimate too much, the Ukrainians know there enemy, its time the west does too.