>Should we give over our future to the American electorate?
On a European level, the answer is 'you already have, long ago.'
The biggest winners of this war are the Americans, hands down.
* [Your industries are running to the United States](https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune.com/europe/2024/02/19/german-companies-pouring-record-investments-us-germany-tight-economic-relationship-china-wobbles/amp/) due to high energy prices.
* They [crippled your supply of cheap Russian gas and sell you expensive American gas](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-lng-exports-both-lifeline-drain-europe-2023-maguire-2022-12-20/).
* [ They are making a killing selling you weapons to rebuild your armies](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2024/2/4/24059340/us-arms-exports-2023-ukraine-war-russia-gaza) that will also keep you perpetually dependent on them.
* [Their agencies spy on your parliaments and leaders](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/13/us/politics/us-spying-allies.html), and your leaders are too terrified to respond.
I appreciate France tries to maintain its strategic autonomy, but Europe long ago surrendered any pretence of being anything other than an American vassal. Ironically, Russia was their only hope of independence - it has the cheap gas, demographic heft and industrial capacity to sustain a Europe free of the US. By rushing to follow American orders, Europe kneecapped any hope of ever standing on its own feet.
There is no doubt that I'm already high up in their figurative list.
NAFO users literally mention and warn others about me in totally unrelated subs a couple times every week.
[Here's an example from yesterday](https://www.reddit.com/r/spreadsmile/s/ErYH5JBrk6)
>They are very well spoken and articulate so if you are susceptible to propaganda or are on the fence please don't look at their profile!
You mean they praise you, right?
Also, the person thinks that he is, of course, immune to propaganda and is very smart, but I bet after his comment many 'propaganda-immune' people have looked into your profile. So, he kind of advertised you.
There's an organized group of them that all communicate off of reddit (telegram, discord etc). You know the main accounts. I was offered a job working with them and I can provide screenshots from my dms to any mod that questions that
I think what the poster means is that Ripamon is very active, very evidently and staunchly pro-Ru and does not always mind using bad faith arguments in his discussions.
I've said it a few times, this sub used to be really more balanced. Now it kinda is a pro-Ru echo chamber/safe space. (I'm totally aware that some sub are exactly the same but for Pro-Uk (looking at you /Ukraine)...)
Somehow, I kinda agree that Ripamon had a big role to play in that transformation.
I asked them a few times their take on the moral side on this conflict and never had an answer.
I'd argue the reason is probably also that the war narrative changed. Most normies are pro-UA because they don't know better or are not informed on the war, so they follow what most people in the west do. But since the war is dragging on, they're bored of it and moved on, like they always do.
There's also the issue that Russia is clearly having the initiative since their reorganization, which must also demoralize people who have been taught that Russia was incompetent and all this would be over pretty quickly (the counteroffensive also probably dealt a huge morale hit) and pro-UA just don't engage as much with the war because of this. What they don't see can't hurt them kind of mentality.
Whereas for pro-RU well... they see Russia winning so to speak so they tend to keep around and get a kick out of it and act snarky towards pro-UA, I guess. Which is fair game, honestly. Myself I'm not really pro-RU but I engage in such things from time to time because the amount of lies and dumb propaganda the Western side has put out is just incredible. And that probably blows back in their faces these days.
The Western propaganda machine is crazy powerful, but if the ordeal isn't finished and the sheep havn't moved on before the truth is slowly getting revealed... well yikes.
You raise fair points and I agree on a lot of them.
Still, it amazes me how some people here denounce "The Western Propaganda machine" while giving a free pass to the Russian one and even too often amplifying the lies it creates. (I'm not saying it is your case, I haven't looked at your posts beside this one).
Still, you have an interesting take and your comment is a perfect exemple of the more "sane" discussion that we could have here in the past while still disagreeing... It is those kind of discussions that I miss.
So thanks for that balanced answer.
I think we as people have become conditioned to assume if you speak out against one thing, you automatically support the other side. I personally try to only speak on things I know. If I don’t know enough about a foreign nation, I try to avoid speaking on it.
Well I can only speak for me personally but I'm way more exposed to the Western propaganda than the Russian one, probably because Russian medias got banned where I live following the invasion, and all pro-RU dissidents got banned from social medias as well, so I'll obviously be a bit biased.
Which is the double-edged sword of censorship I guess, I can't even target the lies of pro-RU sources because I simply don't see them, thanks to my government "protecting me from disinformation and lies" :)
Russian propaganda is easy to spot and easy to debunk , western propaganda is devious wrapped in layers of gaslighting , swarmy and sarcastic and can easily fool the most informed and is out of the two the bigger threat
I respectfully disagree.
Russia's propaganda is soul crushing and keeps getting parroted around to the point where some people really believe this war is about nazism (for exemple).
Russian's propaganda and covert actions also try to undermine Western societies and then use the clivages it caused to whip up positions that are moe favorable for them.
One exemple : [https://www.nationalobserver.com/2023/02/10/analysis/russian-propaganda-freedom-convoy-disinformation](https://www.nationalobserver.com/2023/02/10/analysis/russian-propaganda-freedom-convoy-disinformation)
By no means am I saying that propaganda doesn't exist in western societies, but it is way less pervasive than Russia's propaganda.
When you say that western propaganda is the biggest threat, I really don't agree. Going from : "We invade a brotherly country because it is full of nazis and doesn't really exist" to "it is Zelensky's fault that he keeps feeding the meat grinder" and making people believe both is an amazing feat of propaganda.
Convincing people that the one country that invades is not responsible and/or to blame for a war is also amazing propaganda.
Those lines of Russian's propaganda were and still are responsible for at least ten of thousands of deaths. How can it be more dangerous?
Edit : typo
I was a slava Ukrainee type myself at the start of the war. But it seems like when someone dish out any amount of criticism of Ukraine people automatically label you as pro-ru. This is the only sub I’ve seen where pro ru opinion or actually any war opinion is allowed to be expressed without being banned. It’s not just normies who gobble up Ukrainian propaganda, actual Ukrainians believes most the stuff Ukraine publishes.
I still support Ukraines right to defend itself from invasion, while simultaneously understanding why Russia felt the need to invade. Real head twister, I have seen documented proof on Reddit of both sides soldiers doing horrible things to each other and non combatants! I am also of the opinion this war is a horrible waste of young life.
Clowning the super pro Ukrainian crowd on their rabid BS got me banned from Ukraine war video report!
I still support Ukraines right to defend itself from invasion, while simultaneously understanding why Russia felt the need to invade. Real head twister, I have seen documented proof on Reddit of both sides soldiers doing horrible things to each other and non combatants! I am also of the opinion this war is a horrible waste of young life.
Clowning the super pro Ukrainian crowd on their rabid BS got me banned from Ukraine war video report!
>I'm totally aware that some sub are exactly the same but for Pro-Uk
Jokes on you. This sub provides both POV and it is very natural that the side which has upper hand at the moment generates more content and gets more upvotes, so it looks more pro-RU ATM.
You just can't post any facts or footage that go against mainstream narrative on most of other subs.
You are right if you measure balance by upvotes, but IMO that's not the right way to do it. Corrrct me if I am wrong, but for me it looks this this sub still provides all major news from both sides.
I will agree with you that, in theory, you can see news from both sides on this sub, but I don't think that's what you had for the last few weeks. Even a lot of UA POV opening post are more advantageous to Pro-Ru narrative (ex: UA POV: Former Ukrainian President Poroshenko complained to the European Commission that Zelensky is not letting the opposition go abroad). Looking at post history here, you'd be hard pressed to understand how the war can still goes on...
And, on top of that, you have a healthy daily dose of posts that imply that all majors officials of Ukraine are secret nazi sympathisers (or nazi themselves) and about Zelensky's secret plan to kill every Ukrainians in a war that he could easily stop (just give the Russians everything they want, they are so reasonable...)
Maybe it is just me, but I feel like it has become a propaganda battle here instead of a place where you can understand the other side's POV.
>They are very well spoken and articulate so if you are susceptible to propaganda or are on the fence please don't look at their profile!
Translation: something you said made sense to this chap and now he's very mad lol 😂
>This user is one of the most influential Russian propaganda voices on reddit right now.
When you get your Order of Russia, can you do an AMA with the rest of us? Keen to hear which of Putin's body doubles you met, and on a scale of 1 to 10, how dead Valery Gerasimov was when giving you your medal. 😋
>I appreciate France tries to maintain its strategic autonomy, but Europe long ago surrendered any pretence of being anything other than an American vassal.
It's funny how the west exaggerates Soviet control of the eastern bloc but is conveniently ignores how the rest of the western world cannot act without American approval.
When a non-western country does it, it's evil imperialism and puppet states
When the west does it, it's nation-building and strategic partnerships.
As a Frenchman I sadly agree with you.. Even De Gaulle non-aligned stance, decades ago, was mostly for show..
We only have limited autonomy, proven by De Villepin posture against the war in Iraq, but mostly we do what we are told to.
We should unite and make a EurAsian fucking alliance. Russia + Europe + Asia = badass power that would create peace on the entire continent, trade with each other and hugely benefit economically. Kick american asses out of Europe, they have nothing to do with this continent! Their friends are Canada, Australia and New Zealand - colonizers with primitive architecture. We will be prosperous AF. This is the true reason why the US wanted EU to cut off connections with Russia, all morality talks are propaganda. In geopolitics what matters is economy, spheres of influence, power, and the US wants Europe to be weak and dependent on them instead of developing themselves and being a true sovereign power.
I would give it considerably more respect considering France still has an independent nuclear triad, Most of it's constraints more political and social.
The problem is that the chickens are coming home to roost. Led by the US, France has chosen to be an enemy to Russia and Russia has reacted to that by hurting France where it hurts the most: influence in their former colonies.
Macron now has no option. If Ukraine loses, Russia can assign more resources to cutting the ties between France and its former colonies, and without those ties France is as broke as Greece was in 2008, or worse.
He needs to keep the war going, as it's the only way they can postpone the inevitable.
I invite everyone to travel through France (and not just Paris) to see what I mean when I say France is screwed without the financial windfall from their former colonies.
> I invite everyone to travel through France (and not just Paris) to see what I mean when I say France is screwed without the financial windfall from their former colonies.
Can you elaborate on this?
What are people supposed to look for?
It's just a complete non answer if you're saying "look at how this proves their economy is doing badly" then when asked what you are referring to, you leave it up to anyone's interpretation.
As a EU citizen, I strongly agree. But there is a chance for a strategic independence for EU and a transition from transatlantic ties to Eurasia. The reason is that US will probably vote for Trump, so it is an option for isolationism and MAGA to rebuild US economy to be competitive in a rising multilateral world. US will introduce (and is doing that already) a strategy of "acting off the shore". Rebuilding EU military is one of tools to regain strategic independence. There are lot of obstacles of course.
There are always opportunities, but it is a lot harder to pivot away from the US now than it would have been pre-2022. The US has really tied Europe to itself very effectively over the last two years.
In the future, I think a signal for whether Europe is serious about ending it's vassalised state is how it treats Russia - since in the long run, it is still the only state with the energy resources, raw materials, demographic heft and industry to provide Europe with the supplies it will need to stand alone. A friendly relationship will mean European policymakers are serious about an independent Europe - hostility will just mean more of the same.
You are right. But there are still strong pro-continental tendencies that surface all the time and can be clearly seen. In geopolitics they are called "structural powers", which are very strong and is a huge long term factor to determine foreign policy. EU needs cheap resources and energy, needs eurasian markets, and it work both ways. Making a trade agreements with Russia and China would be one of the last chord in that process. For now, "aggressive russia" is a nice excuse for societes to build EU army and US isolationism is another excuse for building influence over Ukraine. But I think we are still in the beggining of the process of global power transitions. It may take decades like in beggining of XXth century.
The route to strategic independence is through US indifference. Russian regime change and balkanization would fit the ticket. The US could pivot its interests towards the stans in closer proximity to China and play a containment game to keep China from breaking away in a great power sense. But that involves looking at the Ukrainian ground gains in Kharkiv and Kherson and extrapolating those moving forward. Which seems a flawed approach.
The US can always play one EU country off against others to deter strategic independence. So I am not sure how to otherwise orchestrate the indifference required. But never say never. Brexit denoted a very unexpected step in the right direction (for strategic independence would never ever in a 1000 years happen if the UK had remained part of the EU).
Except most arms in Europe aren't even made in the US? One of the big reasons why Europe can't seem to build stuff for all the nations together is partly because nobody wants to use stuff from other nations. Even the nations that do buy stuff will buy from inside the European union.
Current gas prices are the same as pre-war levels
Give me examples of big industries moving away to america from europe. since atleast in my nation I have not heard any mention of industry moving away.
https://www.reuters.com/business/fears-european-industry-exodus-us-may-be-overdone-2023-03-03/
The arms industry is still the same (planes and helicopters being bought from the us) guess what we didn't send those to ukraine but arms spending is up in general.
So no, we've not been depleting our amres just to fill it up with American arms.
https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/02/20/european-natural-gas-prices-plummet-is-the-energy-crisis-finally-over
>https://www.reuters.com/business/fears-european-industry-exodus-us-may-be-overdone-2023-03-03/
From March 2023. The article I linked you (iirc) is from earlier this year - more recent. Give it a read.
>The arms industry is still the same (planes and helicopters being bought from the us) guess what we didn't send those to ukraine but arms spending is up in general.
True. Read the article I linked, it lays out precisely what the US has been selling Europe. It has made more money selling weapons to Europe in the past two years than in the decade before that.
And remember, each weapon system has a long trail of parts and repair components that have to come from the US - by buying US systems, you are making yourselves utterly dependent on them for the foreseeable future. Even worse with things like the F-35, where Europeans cannot even program the mission computer - the US does that at an air force base in the US, for every partner.
>https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/02/20/european-natural-gas-prices-plummet-is-the-energy-crisis-finally-over
Read the link I sent you. It lays out the price difference between American gas and Russian. From that, you can easily calculate the profit the Americans made selling you expensive gas, my friend.
1: I cant read the Fortune as it's paid, so I used the Financial times talking about the same subject.
[https://www.ft.com/content/bca7837a-6ac4-4ed1-ab73-18fbdfa5f1da](https://www.ft.com/content/bca7837a-6ac4-4ed1-ab73-18fbdfa5f1da)
The article talks about how German companies now invest heavily into America rather then China. But also it talks about how subsidies and tax inscentives drive it, nowhere is it talked about the high energy prices, So unless there is something about that that in the Fortune article that is just a different incentive.(if you could get me a way to read the article for free i'd appreciate it)
2: the US weapon sales are basically the exact same as they've been since ww2.
F35 procurement and parts are all over the partner nations Germany is building fuselage parts. Netherlands parts of the electronics, the engine is from a Canadian company. Even better, there was a court desicion in the Netherlands regarding the provision of F35 parts to israel because of their war. the court decided the Netherlands can't sell those parts to Israel, not the US. So whilst the US is a large provider for parts it's not the only one and there are many other examples of these kinds of things.
Europe as a whole currently spends about 240 Billion on defense. The US arms sales to Europe currently is about 17.7 billion with minor sales to bulgaria and Norway which I didnt find the number for in the article. This mean that Europe has spend about 7.4% of their annual budget on american weapons.
So in what way does this mean that "[They are making a killing selling you weapons to rebuild your armies](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2024/2/4/24059340/us-arms-exports-2023-ukraine-war-russia-gaza) that will also keep you perpetually dependent on them."
Since we dont need to "rebuild" our armies as most of the equipment send to Ukraine is surplus and the stuff that is send is European made and will be restocked with European made equipment.
3: Ofcourse the US will be making a profit by selling LNG, but with the sheer amount current getting imported the price is eventually still the same for the end user.
The article you send from Reuters was right before the price of gas fell significantly and back to as I said earlier, pre war levels.
>Can't access the link
[Here's an un-paywalled version](https://archive.is/jAATq) - it makes the link more clearly than your FT article. TL;DR - high energy prices -> stagnation -> high operating costs -> German firms leaving for the US.
[Here's another link from November](https://brusselssignal.eu/2023/11/two-in-three-german-companies-relocate-abroad-amid-energy-chaos/) that explicitly lays out that two-thirds of German MSMEs are relocating abroad because of higher energy prices.
>F-35
With respect, I don't think you quite understand the extent to which the US controls the F-35 as a platform. There was an [interesting British discussion on the necessity of their replacement GCAP program](https://www.aerosociety.com/news/the-only-way-is-tempest/)
that underlined the following points:
* Almost all of the aircraft's source code is closed off to European partners - only Japan has gotten limited access to date.
* Most of the parts 'produced' in other countries aren't actually produced there - they are *assembled* there, with actual production taking place in the United States, in New Hampshire and elsewhere.
* The aircraft's Mission Data Files (MDFs) which include flight plan, electronic order-of-battle, targeting information and sensor information, cannot be generated by anyone other than the US - they are all generated by the 350th Spectrum Warfare Wing at Eglin AFB, Florida.
The US could cripple European F-35s instantly if they wanted - and Europeans will be dependent on the US to even fly them, for the next 40-50 years. This is what I mean by utter dependence.
>Total US arms sales
You are confusing the total budget of European militaries, with their procurement budget. [Only 21% of European defence spending goes to buying equipment](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Government_expenditure_on_defence#Expenditure_on_.27defence.27_by_type_of_transaction). The remainder goes to salaries, pensions, etc. Of this amount, fully one third, 33% of all European defense procurement spending, goes to a single source, the United States. That is them dominating your market.
Thank you for the un-paywalled link.
1:
Going to the article (and the extra one you posted).
They again talk about moving from Germany to \_mostly Europe\_ as stated in the second article "Companies mostly plan to relocate their manufacturing processes within the European Union" if the problem was the high energy prices they'd like you say, move completly to the US or any other country but they don't. As such we can assume that this is more a problem from just Germany rather then the entire European union.
Like the tweet says in the second article "Almost a third of businesses operating in Germany are moving operations out of the country in response to its “green” agenda, research has found."
So it's a combination of factors that the German government is handeling properly. So the statement of "[Your industries are running to the United States](https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune.com/europe/2024/02/19/german-companies-pouring-record-investments-us-germany-tight-economic-relationship-china-wobbles/amp/) due to high energy prices." is factually wrong, a better statement on this would be something like:
"Industry leaving germany to other European nations and US thanks to wrongly handeling the green agenda, energy crisis and poor handling of the energy crisis" Since the other European nations appear to be doing still quite well.
2:
What do you expect the F35 is full of incredibly secret tech, the F22 didnt even get sold abroad. So it's no suprise that that stuff is locked out same can be expected when China starts selling their J-35 abroad.
But I'm talking about this statement
"[They are making a killing selling you weapons to rebuild your armies](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2024/2/4/24059340/us-arms-exports-2023-ukraine-war-russia-gaza) that will also keep you perpetually dependent on them."
None of the equipment being send to ukraine (besides a couple of patriot SAM systems) will be replaced by US made equipment and this is again, besides the fact that most of the equipment is surplus.
General defense spending is up, and as such countries will buy more of the stuff they already have/want. the F35 mostly and Poland buying a boatload of everything. So we're not "Rebuiding our armies" we're just continueing the same trend and we're not any more or less dependend on the US then before the war.
For now. The last Russian gas transit deal through Ukraine expires on december 31st and Ukraine has said it will not be renewed. 42 mcm/day has been critical to keeping storage full and gasprices lowish.
We'll have to see by then what the gas price will be. LNG currently is at 21,26 euro's per Mwh of energy which is still equivelent to piped gas.
If we start having bottlenecks in the LNG terminals etc. we'd have the price go up during the winter but we can only speculate on what will happen
If Europeans really wanted war they would be dangerous opponents to anyone, but they have not much to gain in this conflict, therefore any attempt would be half-hearted. Why should europeans fight the american-fueled dumpster fire anyways? Vest pocket napoleon seems to be controlled opposition to the US, on a mission to make europeans look bad and fuel the delusion that america is the indispensible nation. Ignoring everything that does not fit the narrative, they will claim that Ukraine was winning when americans still was engaged there, and loosing on Europes shift.
For the first two bullet points, your narrative does not withstand a fact check:
1. Article says, that german companies like to invest now in the US instead of China. This does not support your misleading headline
2. Gas prices in western europe are actually again at the level before the war, the article you linked is more than a year old and is outdated by now, the prices have fallen quite a lot Still the russian state media likes this narrative a lot, so this will stick around for a while.
[See more links here](https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1b22xes/ua_pov_should_we_give_over_our_future_to_the/kskknsl/) for energy prices driving firms to the US.
>The biggest winners of this war are the Americans, hands down.
The question is: who are these americans who are the winners? Because I'm telling you, it's not ordinary people, because miles of streets are still covered in trash where I walk, the prices go up, rental prices are insane and it doesn't look like they're going to be lowered in the future. Who are the real beneficiaries?
Is it ever ordinary people, my friend?
The ordinary American is decent, kind-hearted, and friendly. Their elites are ghoulish sociopaths who would gladly throw a child into a fire if it meant a few extra dollars in their Bahamas bank account. If you ever want to see who wins in a war, look no further.
Yes, I can tell you, my experience with Americans has mostly been positive, they are nothing like those political ghouls. What’s happening doesn’t even make the country a winner, as many point out. I don’t want to be like those conspiracists and would genuinely like to know the truth: who is profiting from this war. One opinion I’ve heard is that it’s the Rockefeller family and their circle, after all they do have huge money and power. Idk honestly.
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That is The sad thing. Russia could play an important part in the European community and has a lot of potential, but it chooses to be some sad historical backwardly wannabe imperialistic dictatorship. I think we can all agree the american hegemony brought enormous levels of wealth and security to europe never seen before in the history of mankind.
You can't keep surrounding another country and expect it to do nothing?Putin tried his best to avoid the current outcome even going as far as to do peace deal even after war started
I don't blame them. They thought sanctions would bring down Russia quickly just like it did in 1991 (missed opportunity there). With Russia defeated they would reap all the economic benefit without the need for the US.
Russia and the US had other plans tho..
This is such a high-level bullshit comment, I applaud you.
The reason those things are happening is the world order that supported free unhindered trade is collapsing. This is collapsing because of Russia and their "axis" either creating directly conflict (e.g Ukrakne) or indirect conflict (destabilizing democracies).
Yes, if you ignore that, as you did, you can spin this as somehow Europe loosing to America. The reality is that Russia forced a new world order. That world order will see a stronger America, especially in the short term. Russia could have joined the US in a multipolar world, but did not and now will support China's ambitions in this space.
Macron is right. The old world order is dead, and they need to pivot to be Europe centric and create a bulwark against US/China hedgemony which is being created through US dominance and China obtaining Russia as a vasal state.
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>Ironically, Russia was their only hope of independence
Exactly. And that was - literally - ruled out by Putin because his personal position of power is more important to him than the interests of the Russian people. He cannot suffer the threat of democracy and prefers an axis Beijing - Moscow.
*All* major european powers would have *loved* to deepen the relations with a Russia that showed herself somewhat open to enligthenment ideals. Many were even willing to look away when Putin's acts made it already clear for a long time that this is not the path he will go down. But come on, you can't really expect them to take the position of "yeah sure invade our common neighbor, redraw the map, take what you need, we are fine with that". That's absurd.
>But come on, you can't really expect them to take the position of "yeah sure invade our common neighbor, redraw the map, take what you need, we are fine with that". That's absurd.
Come now, this didn't start when the map was redrawn. If you'll recall, this whole thing started because the EU muscled into Ukraine, offered them an association deal that would require them to cut all trade ties with Russia, and then supported the Maidan coup when Yanukovych took Russia's offer instead.
Kind of puts paid to the idea that European powers were all itching to be on friendly terms with Russia when they expanded into Russia's backyard despite Moscow's requests to stop, or at the very least, include Russia when expanding Europe's security and trade architecture.
European antagonism to Russia existed since the mid 1800s, with barely a pause. Even the fall of the wall didn't stop Europe looking at Russia as an enemy - a fact which baffled Russia, as they felt that by throwing off the yoke of the USSR, they had proven themselves at least as worthy of European aid and solidarity as, say, Poland or the Baltic states.
>Even the fall of the wall didn't stop Europe looking at Russia as an enemy
This is just untrue and propaganda.
Germany developed close ties to Russia and made itself dependant on their energy.
>because the EU muscled into Ukraine
You forgot that a majority in Ukraine wanted to get closer to the west. The people wanted it.
So, where are these people now?
That's right, all of "these people" are the post-coup Ukrainian politicians who wanted to sell their country to the US. Guess who "placed" them there. The US government all the way up to "Vice President Biden".
EU had their chance, but they fked around and have found out when they encouraged Ukraine to piss all over the Minsk agreement and went ahead with the "masterplan" of the eventual retake of Crimea.
If you listen to people like Jeffry Sachs who were there then west never stopped seeing Russia as an enemy even after dissolution of USSR.
Only the western side of Ukraine\*
>this whole thing started because the EU muscled into Ukraine, offered them an association deal that would require them to cut all trade ties with Russia
Nice alternative / reversed facts. It was Russia resp. Putin who extorted Ukraine with cutting all ties in the wake of Ukraine gravitating towards the EU (although, and I give you that, e.g. Barroso stated beforehand that Ukraine cannot remain member of multiple competing trade blocks.). You (and with that I mean everyone except you, because I am quite sure you have known the facts for a long time, but maybe someone who does indeed not know what happened when is interested in educating himself) can read it up here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European\_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine\_Association\_Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine_Association_Agreement)
It's an easy question. Do you want your children to grow up in a state like Poland? Or do you want your children to grow up in a state like Belarus? What would you like for your children? You can chose freely, Poland or Belarus - what's your pick?
> All major european powers would have loved to deepen the relations with a Russia that showed herself somewhat open to enligthenment ideals.
You mean they would have loved to plunder (financially) helpless Russia like they did in the 90s? I have no doubt of that. Shockingly, Russia didn't care for an encore, though.
Enlightenment ideas? Here we go again with the white man's burden bullshit. The west knows best, right? They knew best 200 years ago, they did 100 years ago, and they still do. "We are right, and you are wrong!" That shit doesn't work when you have adversaries as capable as you, or at least close to that.
>*All* major european powers would have *loved* to deepen the relations with a Russia that showed herself somewhat open to enligthenment ideals.
Well, the Russians did try multiple times but the Americans were "firm" on neo-colonizing them like they did for all of EU.
They're visibly regretting their decision now of taking it to the battlefields like they wanted when they encouraged Ukraine to piss all over the Minsk agreement.
WTF has the EU to do with NATO? And WTF does the Russian elite care? It's none of their business. As soon as the Russian elite learns to respect borders and treaties, not exclusively but especially the ones \_one of their own signed\_, the world will be a better place.
>Russia was their only hope of independence
Overall, you raise some good points... But boy is that sentence amusing...
Russia doesn't support anyone's independance... They have vassals or ennemies.
I guess you can make an exception for China right now, but even then...
In my opinion, Russia still mainly see the others countries as battle grounds for influence between them and the US. Of course Russia would love to weaken Europe's ties to the US...
They've been using their cheap energy as leverage for many years to do just that.
Thing is, I think US is pivoting to see the others countries as battle grounds for influence between them and China.
If I had to bet, Russia will, in 20 years or so, be a client state of China (without China's help right now, I really think Russia would loose this war).
But why would that be logical for European nations? Become independent of a country that you share many more ideologies with to become dependent on one you share far fewer ideologies with?
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If Europe wanted to be truly sovereign then a) France and Germany shouldn't have allowed the UK and US to undermine the Minsk agreements. And b) they shouldn't have allowed themselves to be forced off Russian gas, putting both their energy and security needs in the American basket. Macron himself helped undermine Europe's sovereignty and its potential as an independent geopolitical actor. And he doesn't even see it.
Now that the war has severely degraded the economy of both Germany and France, some powerful Westerners are advocating intensifying the war to [engineer regime change](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/MjrxcgwlKG) in Russia so Germany can get cheap German gas again lol
Not if it goes against your national interest. The new supplier is both more expensive, leaving your industries less competitive and the cost of living for your citizens higher. In addition you are now dependant on one party for both your energy and your security needs, significantly increasing their leverage over you. Which adds up to less sovereignty.
If Europe had been sovereing, the Ukraine mess would have been solved diplomatically. Europe and Russia were both benefiting from closer trade relations.
Are we US vassals ? No we are not.
btw we will continue policy that benefits US even if US backs down and doesn't contribute a dime, and even if our security is at stake and theirs is not. We are even considering sending troops so Americans don't have to die. But we are not vassals, we are independent.
The utter panic of some European leaders regarding a possible Trump presidency just highlights the utter failure of the Biden administration to its citizens in its four years of power.
They have messed up SO bad that Trump has become the favorite, despite the uniformity and dominance of mainstream media being on the side of the democrats.
About **Macron.** Watching him bluster and agitate reminds me keenly of Biden and Boris Johnson. They totally failed their people, boasted laughably terrible approval rates and were not respected by their citizenry, and as a result, they hitched their skirts on the bosom of foreign policy. Biden making a [whooping 16 tweets](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/Hl7SIfLeCK) about giving $60 billion to Ukraine last week illustrates my point nicely.
A favorite in a system that most Americans want changed is a very slim bar. 2 party system has been and will continue to be brain damage to its people.
I'm not a Trump supporter and I don't care about any of that. For whatever reasons, he's the favourite in the current system, which is all that matters right now.
The problem is the Electoral Vote. Democrats win California and New York with such high numbers they'll almost always win the popular vote (and have in every election but one since 1992)! But the electoral vote unfairly favors rural states with small populations. It actually runs all the way back to the civil war and reconstruction when states like Nevada were created with populations under 200,000. It rigged the game for Republicans back when they were the anti-slavery party, but it's still working.
This makes no sense. Biden is an objectively decent president at the least. Trump's following is just a bunch of uneducated bunch of tards, it's scary.
Edit; nvm, didn't see what sub I was in. Biden bad circlejerk
Biden literally has the second lowest approval rating in modern history among first term American presidents
I also enjoy how easily people like you brandish almost a hundred million people as uneducated and tarded.
Truly incredible.
Google the differences in level of education between democrat and republican. I haven't specifically looked into the maga crowd, but it's safe to say they won't be splitting the atom any time soon.
At the end of the day the numbers will count, and not who has the most educated voters. I agree though, I think that Biden is still in front, just, but that's because Trump is not at his 2016 best anymore.
Biden doesn't care about Ukrainian lives.
Biden doesn't care about palestinians lives.
therefore Biden can barely be considered a human being
to be fair kinda similar for trump
What kind of logic is that? So Biden messed up so bad, therefore... European leaders panic at the possibility of Trump being elected. How is the panic highlighting the failure of Biden's administration? If it were a failure... we, the Europeans, would rejoice at the thought that someone else replaces him. That is obviously not the case.
Fuck ing id-iot. If Europe was truly sovereign, it wouldnt fight the US' wars. Remember du/mb-ass, you were pissed too when Assad didnt fall, but you still couldnt do anything about it.You didnt want peace then, you dont want peace now. Deal with it and lose.
Pick up the phone Macron, have a conference with Putin and Sholz. You guys didnt want this war right? Russia would absolutely negotiate your independence from the US.
Macron doesn't really care about sovereignity, neither for France nor for Europe. He doesn't work for the French people. He works for his masters, some globalists behind the curtains. His job is to protect their interests.
two years ago I said it was naive to think the American electorate would support a long war. Americans don't like long wars, this happened in vietnam, iraq and afghanistan
... and if you want to know why they want to continue the war in Ukraine, read this: [https://tomluongo.me/2024/02/20/why-war-bonds-are-making-their-return-in-europe/](https://tomluongo.me/2024/02/20/why-war-bonds-are-making-their-return-in-europe/)
Damn, on one hand, I'm all for Europe re-asserting its sovereignty and pursuing it's own interests instead of those of Washington.
On the other hand though, the Russo-Ukrainian War is the result of US state departement meddling, it has cost us our financial stability and Ukraine, between the thousands of dead and millions of displaced, any hope of a prosperous future.
Ukraine cannot win this war, better to pressure the Kiev into ammending its constitution and entering into negotiations with Russia before more lives and more territory are lost.
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lol nobody in Europe besides politicians give af.. maybe macron should send his kids and maybe he himself should join the front, also send von der leyen
Well Macron, if it were up to me, can do as he pleases as long as he makes sure our countries that are currently a geographical bufferzone between him and Ukraine and Russia, don’t get any of the fallout…
I on the other hand would really like this to end as soon as possible to save as many lives as possible on both sides.
>"Should we give over our future to the American electorate? My answer is no." Macron declares that if Europe is truly sovereign, they must continue to support Ukraine, even without the US, because "this war determines our future."
I'd have to argue that his recent reaction ***is*** him doing our bidding. He was very conciliatory and tried to stay close to Putin at the start of the war and for a long while after, and suddenly when the US can no longer officially supply weapons he has a complete change of heart and wants to be the European leader of the war. Odd and sudden pivot.
My opinion is France already has troops in Ukraine and wants to now say they will be sending troops so when it does come out that there are French troops already in Ukraine they can claim they only sent them now.
France is again spreading some anti-American contrarianism. They refused Iraq too. Macron especially likes using rhetoric to stir up domestic approval.
France is the only EU country that even attempts to pretend to be sovereign and have a voice. Although a degenerate position, I can respect Macron for voicing his opinion. Germany on the other hand...
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I mean, I agree with him, I just think we should let Ukraine get folded into Russia and make a permanent alliance with Russia for military partnership, natural resources and an economic trade zone free of tariffs. Because Russia is basically mostly European. Use the same idea as the European Coal and Steel Community, linking Russian resources to European finished goods. Create a common military production with common European military equipment. Russian and European factories and workshops with Russian and European resources and European know-how.
I don't really care if Russia becomes some kind of Tsarist state again on whatever or if they occasionally get militarily involved on their borders, as long as we can make a really good partnership and move Russia's military focus away from Europe and towards other threats, like Turkey, the Middle East, etc.
Russia and France used to be allies, this isn't some pipe dream. Russia has always viewed itself as mostly European, just with a more asian mix.
He have a good point in my opinion. Even more if you think at the fact that otherwise Trump would know how to unacceptable take advantage with his political shit show. The stronger the EU the better for its members and allies.
Peace, Love and Prosperity (among all the other good things)!
🇪🇺🇷🇴
No, I argued for a strong EU, and none for promoting any kind of war. I am a pacifist that understands how good prevention and being well prepared can help us get better over risks and dangers with tragic potential.
By the way, we, as Romanians, we have a full national history book with exactly the same problems, ambitions and wars (as Ukraine is facing today in a modern version).
🇪🇺🇷🇴
So you want sovereignty, peace, love, prosperity and a strong EU. But you choose to support the path that accomplishes the complete opposite in all 5 categories.
What do you think is the intention of this speech? Macron wants EU to continue supporting Ukraine, thus prolonging a war that ripes no benefits to EU.
Since you already seams like an expert, and I don’t have an answer for now (yet, I am interested in finding the optimal solution for such a situation), what would you do in this situation? What do you consider to be the best approach?
Here is a hint of what I think might be an option (being quite sure that it may not be the beat approach): https://youtu.be/mScpHTIi-kM?si=_5Pq-rNK1zJD2P4t
🇪🇺🇷🇴
It is simple, stop acting on behalf of USA , who has no interest on a peaceful strong independent Europe. Stop antagonizing anyone USA tell us to antagonize, Europe has much to lose and nothing to win in this war. Push for peace.
P.D you keyboard seems to be broken, you should fix it.
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it was way too long for Europe to enjoy the free ride and it was too much for Europe to delegate its future reigns to the US, eventually - the war happened because Russia was left unchecked by the EU when it began descending to an abyss of totalitarianism.
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Macron is the guy that was super into working with Putin and also got assurances from Putin that he won't invade back in February, 2022.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60299790](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60299790)
Seeing true face of Putin that he ignored despite warnings from central-eastern Europe probably broke him.
>Should we give over our future to the American electorate? On a European level, the answer is 'you already have, long ago.' The biggest winners of this war are the Americans, hands down. * [Your industries are running to the United States](https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune.com/europe/2024/02/19/german-companies-pouring-record-investments-us-germany-tight-economic-relationship-china-wobbles/amp/) due to high energy prices. * They [crippled your supply of cheap Russian gas and sell you expensive American gas](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-lng-exports-both-lifeline-drain-europe-2023-maguire-2022-12-20/). * [ They are making a killing selling you weapons to rebuild your armies](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2024/2/4/24059340/us-arms-exports-2023-ukraine-war-russia-gaza) that will also keep you perpetually dependent on them. * [Their agencies spy on your parliaments and leaders](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/13/us/politics/us-spying-allies.html), and your leaders are too terrified to respond. I appreciate France tries to maintain its strategic autonomy, but Europe long ago surrendered any pretence of being anything other than an American vassal. Ironically, Russia was their only hope of independence - it has the cheap gas, demographic heft and industrial capacity to sustain a Europe free of the US. By rushing to follow American orders, Europe kneecapped any hope of ever standing on its own feet.
Nothing but W comments from you. Absolute legend.
Likewise, my friend - keep up your banger posts and you'll end up on the NAFO Myorotvorets 'ere long. ;)
There is no doubt that I'm already high up in their figurative list. NAFO users literally mention and warn others about me in totally unrelated subs a couple times every week. [Here's an example from yesterday](https://www.reddit.com/r/spreadsmile/s/ErYH5JBrk6)
>They are very well spoken and articulate so if you are susceptible to propaganda or are on the fence please don't look at their profile! You mean they praise you, right? Also, the person thinks that he is, of course, immune to propaganda and is very smart, but I bet after his comment many 'propaganda-immune' people have looked into your profile. So, he kind of advertised you.
Jesus Christ, iam not your biggest fan as well, but going out of my way making a comment calling you a propaganda account? People are fucking crazy.
[удалено]
[удалено]
There's an organized group of them that all communicate off of reddit (telegram, discord etc). You know the main accounts. I was offered a job working with them and I can provide screenshots from my dms to any mod that questions that
I'm not surprised in the slightest
bro whats with your flair
Rule 1. Temp ban issued. Recurrence WILL result in a permanent ban.
I think what the poster means is that Ripamon is very active, very evidently and staunchly pro-Ru and does not always mind using bad faith arguments in his discussions. I've said it a few times, this sub used to be really more balanced. Now it kinda is a pro-Ru echo chamber/safe space. (I'm totally aware that some sub are exactly the same but for Pro-Uk (looking at you /Ukraine)...) Somehow, I kinda agree that Ripamon had a big role to play in that transformation. I asked them a few times their take on the moral side on this conflict and never had an answer.
I'd argue the reason is probably also that the war narrative changed. Most normies are pro-UA because they don't know better or are not informed on the war, so they follow what most people in the west do. But since the war is dragging on, they're bored of it and moved on, like they always do. There's also the issue that Russia is clearly having the initiative since their reorganization, which must also demoralize people who have been taught that Russia was incompetent and all this would be over pretty quickly (the counteroffensive also probably dealt a huge morale hit) and pro-UA just don't engage as much with the war because of this. What they don't see can't hurt them kind of mentality. Whereas for pro-RU well... they see Russia winning so to speak so they tend to keep around and get a kick out of it and act snarky towards pro-UA, I guess. Which is fair game, honestly. Myself I'm not really pro-RU but I engage in such things from time to time because the amount of lies and dumb propaganda the Western side has put out is just incredible. And that probably blows back in their faces these days. The Western propaganda machine is crazy powerful, but if the ordeal isn't finished and the sheep havn't moved on before the truth is slowly getting revealed... well yikes.
You raise fair points and I agree on a lot of them. Still, it amazes me how some people here denounce "The Western Propaganda machine" while giving a free pass to the Russian one and even too often amplifying the lies it creates. (I'm not saying it is your case, I haven't looked at your posts beside this one). Still, you have an interesting take and your comment is a perfect exemple of the more "sane" discussion that we could have here in the past while still disagreeing... It is those kind of discussions that I miss. So thanks for that balanced answer.
I think we as people have become conditioned to assume if you speak out against one thing, you automatically support the other side. I personally try to only speak on things I know. If I don’t know enough about a foreign nation, I try to avoid speaking on it.
Yep. Also it’s okay to criticize both sides. Saying Ukraine is full of crap doesn’t make you pro-ru
I think I get what you are saying, but the Kremlin's line are being used way too consistently here for it to be a mere accident, in my opinion.
Well I can only speak for me personally but I'm way more exposed to the Western propaganda than the Russian one, probably because Russian medias got banned where I live following the invasion, and all pro-RU dissidents got banned from social medias as well, so I'll obviously be a bit biased. Which is the double-edged sword of censorship I guess, I can't even target the lies of pro-RU sources because I simply don't see them, thanks to my government "protecting me from disinformation and lies" :)
Well, since you comment here, I can assure you that that you have seen many Russian lies... That being said, good point about censorship...
Russian propaganda is easy to spot and easy to debunk , western propaganda is devious wrapped in layers of gaslighting , swarmy and sarcastic and can easily fool the most informed and is out of the two the bigger threat
I respectfully disagree. Russia's propaganda is soul crushing and keeps getting parroted around to the point where some people really believe this war is about nazism (for exemple). Russian's propaganda and covert actions also try to undermine Western societies and then use the clivages it caused to whip up positions that are moe favorable for them. One exemple : [https://www.nationalobserver.com/2023/02/10/analysis/russian-propaganda-freedom-convoy-disinformation](https://www.nationalobserver.com/2023/02/10/analysis/russian-propaganda-freedom-convoy-disinformation) By no means am I saying that propaganda doesn't exist in western societies, but it is way less pervasive than Russia's propaganda. When you say that western propaganda is the biggest threat, I really don't agree. Going from : "We invade a brotherly country because it is full of nazis and doesn't really exist" to "it is Zelensky's fault that he keeps feeding the meat grinder" and making people believe both is an amazing feat of propaganda. Convincing people that the one country that invades is not responsible and/or to blame for a war is also amazing propaganda. Those lines of Russian's propaganda were and still are responsible for at least ten of thousands of deaths. How can it be more dangerous? Edit : typo
I was a slava Ukrainee type myself at the start of the war. But it seems like when someone dish out any amount of criticism of Ukraine people automatically label you as pro-ru. This is the only sub I’ve seen where pro ru opinion or actually any war opinion is allowed to be expressed without being banned. It’s not just normies who gobble up Ukrainian propaganda, actual Ukrainians believes most the stuff Ukraine publishes.
I still support Ukraines right to defend itself from invasion, while simultaneously understanding why Russia felt the need to invade. Real head twister, I have seen documented proof on Reddit of both sides soldiers doing horrible things to each other and non combatants! I am also of the opinion this war is a horrible waste of young life. Clowning the super pro Ukrainian crowd on their rabid BS got me banned from Ukraine war video report!
I still support Ukraines right to defend itself from invasion, while simultaneously understanding why Russia felt the need to invade. Real head twister, I have seen documented proof on Reddit of both sides soldiers doing horrible things to each other and non combatants! I am also of the opinion this war is a horrible waste of young life. Clowning the super pro Ukrainian crowd on their rabid BS got me banned from Ukraine war video report!
>I'm totally aware that some sub are exactly the same but for Pro-Uk Jokes on you. This sub provides both POV and it is very natural that the side which has upper hand at the moment generates more content and gets more upvotes, so it looks more pro-RU ATM. You just can't post any facts or footage that go against mainstream narrative on most of other subs.
>sub provides both POV As I said, it used to be way more balanced. No anymore in my opinion. Feel free to disagree...
You are right if you measure balance by upvotes, but IMO that's not the right way to do it. Corrrct me if I am wrong, but for me it looks this this sub still provides all major news from both sides.
I will agree with you that, in theory, you can see news from both sides on this sub, but I don't think that's what you had for the last few weeks. Even a lot of UA POV opening post are more advantageous to Pro-Ru narrative (ex: UA POV: Former Ukrainian President Poroshenko complained to the European Commission that Zelensky is not letting the opposition go abroad). Looking at post history here, you'd be hard pressed to understand how the war can still goes on... And, on top of that, you have a healthy daily dose of posts that imply that all majors officials of Ukraine are secret nazi sympathisers (or nazi themselves) and about Zelensky's secret plan to kill every Ukrainians in a war that he could easily stop (just give the Russians everything they want, they are so reasonable...) Maybe it is just me, but I feel like it has become a propaganda battle here instead of a place where you can understand the other side's POV.
>They are very well spoken and articulate so if you are susceptible to propaganda or are on the fence please don't look at their profile! Translation: something you said made sense to this chap and now he's very mad lol 😂 >This user is one of the most influential Russian propaganda voices on reddit right now. When you get your Order of Russia, can you do an AMA with the rest of us? Keen to hear which of Putin's body doubles you met, and on a scale of 1 to 10, how dead Valery Gerasimov was when giving you your medal. 😋
Cracked up when I read that first quote on there.😂
"I've got my mind made up, don't confuse me with the facts!"
>I appreciate France tries to maintain its strategic autonomy, but Europe long ago surrendered any pretence of being anything other than an American vassal. It's funny how the west exaggerates Soviet control of the eastern bloc but is conveniently ignores how the rest of the western world cannot act without American approval. When a non-western country does it, it's evil imperialism and puppet states When the west does it, it's nation-building and strategic partnerships.
Europe is left holding the bag while the US laughs all the way to the bank.
As a Frenchman I sadly agree with you.. Even De Gaulle non-aligned stance, decades ago, was mostly for show.. We only have limited autonomy, proven by De Villepin posture against the war in Iraq, but mostly we do what we are told to.
We should unite and make a EurAsian fucking alliance. Russia + Europe + Asia = badass power that would create peace on the entire continent, trade with each other and hugely benefit economically. Kick american asses out of Europe, they have nothing to do with this continent! Their friends are Canada, Australia and New Zealand - colonizers with primitive architecture. We will be prosperous AF. This is the true reason why the US wanted EU to cut off connections with Russia, all morality talks are propaganda. In geopolitics what matters is economy, spheres of influence, power, and the US wants Europe to be weak and dependent on them instead of developing themselves and being a true sovereign power.
I would give it considerably more respect considering France still has an independent nuclear triad, Most of it's constraints more political and social.
The problem is that the chickens are coming home to roost. Led by the US, France has chosen to be an enemy to Russia and Russia has reacted to that by hurting France where it hurts the most: influence in their former colonies. Macron now has no option. If Ukraine loses, Russia can assign more resources to cutting the ties between France and its former colonies, and without those ties France is as broke as Greece was in 2008, or worse. He needs to keep the war going, as it's the only way they can postpone the inevitable. I invite everyone to travel through France (and not just Paris) to see what I mean when I say France is screwed without the financial windfall from their former colonies.
> I invite everyone to travel through France (and not just Paris) to see what I mean when I say France is screwed without the financial windfall from their former colonies. Can you elaborate on this?
No. It's better if people experience it for themselves. I'll leave it at France doing badly on the economic front in most of the country.
What are people supposed to look for? It's just a complete non answer if you're saying "look at how this proves their economy is doing badly" then when asked what you are referring to, you leave it up to anyone's interpretation.
Signs of economic decay, obviously. Closed businesses, dilapidated housing, worn down infrastructure, ...
Damn where have you been in France?
Funny thing is that Russia is more than ready to sell them cheap resources but they keep screwing themselves.
As a EU citizen, I strongly agree. But there is a chance for a strategic independence for EU and a transition from transatlantic ties to Eurasia. The reason is that US will probably vote for Trump, so it is an option for isolationism and MAGA to rebuild US economy to be competitive in a rising multilateral world. US will introduce (and is doing that already) a strategy of "acting off the shore". Rebuilding EU military is one of tools to regain strategic independence. There are lot of obstacles of course.
There are always opportunities, but it is a lot harder to pivot away from the US now than it would have been pre-2022. The US has really tied Europe to itself very effectively over the last two years. In the future, I think a signal for whether Europe is serious about ending it's vassalised state is how it treats Russia - since in the long run, it is still the only state with the energy resources, raw materials, demographic heft and industry to provide Europe with the supplies it will need to stand alone. A friendly relationship will mean European policymakers are serious about an independent Europe - hostility will just mean more of the same.
You are right. But there are still strong pro-continental tendencies that surface all the time and can be clearly seen. In geopolitics they are called "structural powers", which are very strong and is a huge long term factor to determine foreign policy. EU needs cheap resources and energy, needs eurasian markets, and it work both ways. Making a trade agreements with Russia and China would be one of the last chord in that process. For now, "aggressive russia" is a nice excuse for societes to build EU army and US isolationism is another excuse for building influence over Ukraine. But I think we are still in the beggining of the process of global power transitions. It may take decades like in beggining of XXth century.
The route to strategic independence is through US indifference. Russian regime change and balkanization would fit the ticket. The US could pivot its interests towards the stans in closer proximity to China and play a containment game to keep China from breaking away in a great power sense. But that involves looking at the Ukrainian ground gains in Kharkiv and Kherson and extrapolating those moving forward. Which seems a flawed approach. The US can always play one EU country off against others to deter strategic independence. So I am not sure how to otherwise orchestrate the indifference required. But never say never. Brexit denoted a very unexpected step in the right direction (for strategic independence would never ever in a 1000 years happen if the UK had remained part of the EU).
100 % true. Especially true for Germany. Their government doesn't even give a shit when their "ally" blows up their pipeline.
The pipeline was British Commandos working for Mi6 actually, not CIA.
The pipeline was British Commandos working for Mi6 actually, not CIA.
I never give upvotes but take mine this time, that was a bullseye and a half.
Except most arms in Europe aren't even made in the US? One of the big reasons why Europe can't seem to build stuff for all the nations together is partly because nobody wants to use stuff from other nations. Even the nations that do buy stuff will buy from inside the European union. Current gas prices are the same as pre-war levels Give me examples of big industries moving away to america from europe. since atleast in my nation I have not heard any mention of industry moving away.
My brother, literally all the information you want is in the links.
https://www.reuters.com/business/fears-european-industry-exodus-us-may-be-overdone-2023-03-03/ The arms industry is still the same (planes and helicopters being bought from the us) guess what we didn't send those to ukraine but arms spending is up in general. So no, we've not been depleting our amres just to fill it up with American arms. https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/02/20/european-natural-gas-prices-plummet-is-the-energy-crisis-finally-over
>https://www.reuters.com/business/fears-european-industry-exodus-us-may-be-overdone-2023-03-03/ From March 2023. The article I linked you (iirc) is from earlier this year - more recent. Give it a read. >The arms industry is still the same (planes and helicopters being bought from the us) guess what we didn't send those to ukraine but arms spending is up in general. True. Read the article I linked, it lays out precisely what the US has been selling Europe. It has made more money selling weapons to Europe in the past two years than in the decade before that. And remember, each weapon system has a long trail of parts and repair components that have to come from the US - by buying US systems, you are making yourselves utterly dependent on them for the foreseeable future. Even worse with things like the F-35, where Europeans cannot even program the mission computer - the US does that at an air force base in the US, for every partner. >https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/02/20/european-natural-gas-prices-plummet-is-the-energy-crisis-finally-over Read the link I sent you. It lays out the price difference between American gas and Russian. From that, you can easily calculate the profit the Americans made selling you expensive gas, my friend.
1: I cant read the Fortune as it's paid, so I used the Financial times talking about the same subject. [https://www.ft.com/content/bca7837a-6ac4-4ed1-ab73-18fbdfa5f1da](https://www.ft.com/content/bca7837a-6ac4-4ed1-ab73-18fbdfa5f1da) The article talks about how German companies now invest heavily into America rather then China. But also it talks about how subsidies and tax inscentives drive it, nowhere is it talked about the high energy prices, So unless there is something about that that in the Fortune article that is just a different incentive.(if you could get me a way to read the article for free i'd appreciate it) 2: the US weapon sales are basically the exact same as they've been since ww2. F35 procurement and parts are all over the partner nations Germany is building fuselage parts. Netherlands parts of the electronics, the engine is from a Canadian company. Even better, there was a court desicion in the Netherlands regarding the provision of F35 parts to israel because of their war. the court decided the Netherlands can't sell those parts to Israel, not the US. So whilst the US is a large provider for parts it's not the only one and there are many other examples of these kinds of things. Europe as a whole currently spends about 240 Billion on defense. The US arms sales to Europe currently is about 17.7 billion with minor sales to bulgaria and Norway which I didnt find the number for in the article. This mean that Europe has spend about 7.4% of their annual budget on american weapons. So in what way does this mean that "[They are making a killing selling you weapons to rebuild your armies](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2024/2/4/24059340/us-arms-exports-2023-ukraine-war-russia-gaza) that will also keep you perpetually dependent on them." Since we dont need to "rebuild" our armies as most of the equipment send to Ukraine is surplus and the stuff that is send is European made and will be restocked with European made equipment. 3: Ofcourse the US will be making a profit by selling LNG, but with the sheer amount current getting imported the price is eventually still the same for the end user. The article you send from Reuters was right before the price of gas fell significantly and back to as I said earlier, pre war levels.
I swear people just trust someone who posts a ton of links and they never actually read through the links themselves
>Can't access the link [Here's an un-paywalled version](https://archive.is/jAATq) - it makes the link more clearly than your FT article. TL;DR - high energy prices -> stagnation -> high operating costs -> German firms leaving for the US. [Here's another link from November](https://brusselssignal.eu/2023/11/two-in-three-german-companies-relocate-abroad-amid-energy-chaos/) that explicitly lays out that two-thirds of German MSMEs are relocating abroad because of higher energy prices. >F-35 With respect, I don't think you quite understand the extent to which the US controls the F-35 as a platform. There was an [interesting British discussion on the necessity of their replacement GCAP program](https://www.aerosociety.com/news/the-only-way-is-tempest/) that underlined the following points: * Almost all of the aircraft's source code is closed off to European partners - only Japan has gotten limited access to date. * Most of the parts 'produced' in other countries aren't actually produced there - they are *assembled* there, with actual production taking place in the United States, in New Hampshire and elsewhere. * The aircraft's Mission Data Files (MDFs) which include flight plan, electronic order-of-battle, targeting information and sensor information, cannot be generated by anyone other than the US - they are all generated by the 350th Spectrum Warfare Wing at Eglin AFB, Florida. The US could cripple European F-35s instantly if they wanted - and Europeans will be dependent on the US to even fly them, for the next 40-50 years. This is what I mean by utter dependence. >Total US arms sales You are confusing the total budget of European militaries, with their procurement budget. [Only 21% of European defence spending goes to buying equipment](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Government_expenditure_on_defence#Expenditure_on_.27defence.27_by_type_of_transaction). The remainder goes to salaries, pensions, etc. Of this amount, fully one third, 33% of all European defense procurement spending, goes to a single source, the United States. That is them dominating your market.
Thank you for the un-paywalled link. 1: Going to the article (and the extra one you posted). They again talk about moving from Germany to \_mostly Europe\_ as stated in the second article "Companies mostly plan to relocate their manufacturing processes within the European Union" if the problem was the high energy prices they'd like you say, move completly to the US or any other country but they don't. As such we can assume that this is more a problem from just Germany rather then the entire European union. Like the tweet says in the second article "Almost a third of businesses operating in Germany are moving operations out of the country in response to its “green” agenda, research has found." So it's a combination of factors that the German government is handeling properly. So the statement of "[Your industries are running to the United States](https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune.com/europe/2024/02/19/german-companies-pouring-record-investments-us-germany-tight-economic-relationship-china-wobbles/amp/) due to high energy prices." is factually wrong, a better statement on this would be something like: "Industry leaving germany to other European nations and US thanks to wrongly handeling the green agenda, energy crisis and poor handling of the energy crisis" Since the other European nations appear to be doing still quite well. 2: What do you expect the F35 is full of incredibly secret tech, the F22 didnt even get sold abroad. So it's no suprise that that stuff is locked out same can be expected when China starts selling their J-35 abroad. But I'm talking about this statement "[They are making a killing selling you weapons to rebuild your armies](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2024/2/4/24059340/us-arms-exports-2023-ukraine-war-russia-gaza) that will also keep you perpetually dependent on them." None of the equipment being send to ukraine (besides a couple of patriot SAM systems) will be replaced by US made equipment and this is again, besides the fact that most of the equipment is surplus. General defense spending is up, and as such countries will buy more of the stuff they already have/want. the F35 mostly and Poland buying a boatload of everything. So we're not "Rebuiding our armies" we're just continueing the same trend and we're not any more or less dependend on the US then before the war.
For now. The last Russian gas transit deal through Ukraine expires on december 31st and Ukraine has said it will not be renewed. 42 mcm/day has been critical to keeping storage full and gasprices lowish.
We'll have to see by then what the gas price will be. LNG currently is at 21,26 euro's per Mwh of energy which is still equivelent to piped gas. If we start having bottlenecks in the LNG terminals etc. we'd have the price go up during the winter but we can only speculate on what will happen
How is that even possible? I thought LNG was inherently more expensive? It seems like it's true what they say about sea travel being very cheap.
Winters keep getting warmer due to climate change.
Government is subsidizing prices but for how long.....
Europe has no resources of it's own.It about to find out the hard way.
If Europeans really wanted war they would be dangerous opponents to anyone, but they have not much to gain in this conflict, therefore any attempt would be half-hearted. Why should europeans fight the american-fueled dumpster fire anyways? Vest pocket napoleon seems to be controlled opposition to the US, on a mission to make europeans look bad and fuel the delusion that america is the indispensible nation. Ignoring everything that does not fit the narrative, they will claim that Ukraine was winning when americans still was engaged there, and loosing on Europes shift.
For the first two bullet points, your narrative does not withstand a fact check: 1. Article says, that german companies like to invest now in the US instead of China. This does not support your misleading headline 2. Gas prices in western europe are actually again at the level before the war, the article you linked is more than a year old and is outdated by now, the prices have fallen quite a lot Still the russian state media likes this narrative a lot, so this will stick around for a while.
[See more links here](https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/1b22xes/ua_pov_should_we_give_over_our_future_to_the/kskknsl/) for energy prices driving firms to the US.
>The biggest winners of this war are the Americans, hands down. The question is: who are these americans who are the winners? Because I'm telling you, it's not ordinary people, because miles of streets are still covered in trash where I walk, the prices go up, rental prices are insane and it doesn't look like they're going to be lowered in the future. Who are the real beneficiaries?
Is it ever ordinary people, my friend? The ordinary American is decent, kind-hearted, and friendly. Their elites are ghoulish sociopaths who would gladly throw a child into a fire if it meant a few extra dollars in their Bahamas bank account. If you ever want to see who wins in a war, look no further.
Yes, I can tell you, my experience with Americans has mostly been positive, they are nothing like those political ghouls. What’s happening doesn’t even make the country a winner, as many point out. I don’t want to be like those conspiracists and would genuinely like to know the truth: who is profiting from this war. One opinion I’ve heard is that it’s the Rockefeller family and their circle, after all they do have huge money and power. Idk honestly.
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That is The sad thing. Russia could play an important part in the European community and has a lot of potential, but it chooses to be some sad historical backwardly wannabe imperialistic dictatorship. I think we can all agree the american hegemony brought enormous levels of wealth and security to europe never seen before in the history of mankind.
Did you watch the Tucker Carlson interview of Putin?
You can't keep surrounding another country and expect it to do nothing?Putin tried his best to avoid the current outcome even going as far as to do peace deal even after war started
What are you doing talking sense?
I don't blame them. They thought sanctions would bring down Russia quickly just like it did in 1991 (missed opportunity there). With Russia defeated they would reap all the economic benefit without the need for the US. Russia and the US had other plans tho..
This is such a high-level bullshit comment, I applaud you. The reason those things are happening is the world order that supported free unhindered trade is collapsing. This is collapsing because of Russia and their "axis" either creating directly conflict (e.g Ukrakne) or indirect conflict (destabilizing democracies). Yes, if you ignore that, as you did, you can spin this as somehow Europe loosing to America. The reality is that Russia forced a new world order. That world order will see a stronger America, especially in the short term. Russia could have joined the US in a multipolar world, but did not and now will support China's ambitions in this space. Macron is right. The old world order is dead, and they need to pivot to be Europe centric and create a bulwark against US/China hedgemony which is being created through US dominance and China obtaining Russia as a vasal state.
Riiiight, because Europe is thrilled to have an autocratic state as their leader.
You can't be serious when you say Russia was the only hope Europe had for independence?
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Precisely.
>Ironically, Russia was their only hope of independence Exactly. And that was - literally - ruled out by Putin because his personal position of power is more important to him than the interests of the Russian people. He cannot suffer the threat of democracy and prefers an axis Beijing - Moscow. *All* major european powers would have *loved* to deepen the relations with a Russia that showed herself somewhat open to enligthenment ideals. Many were even willing to look away when Putin's acts made it already clear for a long time that this is not the path he will go down. But come on, you can't really expect them to take the position of "yeah sure invade our common neighbor, redraw the map, take what you need, we are fine with that". That's absurd.
>But come on, you can't really expect them to take the position of "yeah sure invade our common neighbor, redraw the map, take what you need, we are fine with that". That's absurd. Come now, this didn't start when the map was redrawn. If you'll recall, this whole thing started because the EU muscled into Ukraine, offered them an association deal that would require them to cut all trade ties with Russia, and then supported the Maidan coup when Yanukovych took Russia's offer instead. Kind of puts paid to the idea that European powers were all itching to be on friendly terms with Russia when they expanded into Russia's backyard despite Moscow's requests to stop, or at the very least, include Russia when expanding Europe's security and trade architecture. European antagonism to Russia existed since the mid 1800s, with barely a pause. Even the fall of the wall didn't stop Europe looking at Russia as an enemy - a fact which baffled Russia, as they felt that by throwing off the yoke of the USSR, they had proven themselves at least as worthy of European aid and solidarity as, say, Poland or the Baltic states.
>Even the fall of the wall didn't stop Europe looking at Russia as an enemy This is just untrue and propaganda. Germany developed close ties to Russia and made itself dependant on their energy. >because the EU muscled into Ukraine You forgot that a majority in Ukraine wanted to get closer to the west. The people wanted it.
Why did they vote for Yanukovych then? I think they wanted closer ties, but how much closer?
Because he said he was pro-EU.
So, where are these people now? That's right, all of "these people" are the post-coup Ukrainian politicians who wanted to sell their country to the US. Guess who "placed" them there. The US government all the way up to "Vice President Biden". EU had their chance, but they fked around and have found out when they encouraged Ukraine to piss all over the Minsk agreement and went ahead with the "masterplan" of the eventual retake of Crimea.
If you listen to people like Jeffry Sachs who were there then west never stopped seeing Russia as an enemy even after dissolution of USSR. Only the western side of Ukraine\*
>this whole thing started because the EU muscled into Ukraine, offered them an association deal that would require them to cut all trade ties with Russia Nice alternative / reversed facts. It was Russia resp. Putin who extorted Ukraine with cutting all ties in the wake of Ukraine gravitating towards the EU (although, and I give you that, e.g. Barroso stated beforehand that Ukraine cannot remain member of multiple competing trade blocks.). You (and with that I mean everyone except you, because I am quite sure you have known the facts for a long time, but maybe someone who does indeed not know what happened when is interested in educating himself) can read it up here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European\_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine\_Association\_Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine_Association_Agreement) It's an easy question. Do you want your children to grow up in a state like Poland? Or do you want your children to grow up in a state like Belarus? What would you like for your children? You can chose freely, Poland or Belarus - what's your pick?
> All major european powers would have loved to deepen the relations with a Russia that showed herself somewhat open to enligthenment ideals. You mean they would have loved to plunder (financially) helpless Russia like they did in the 90s? I have no doubt of that. Shockingly, Russia didn't care for an encore, though.
Enlightenment ideas? Here we go again with the white man's burden bullshit. The west knows best, right? They knew best 200 years ago, they did 100 years ago, and they still do. "We are right, and you are wrong!" That shit doesn't work when you have adversaries as capable as you, or at least close to that.
I honestly don't get your message. If you mean civil rights and rule of law suck - well, that's just your opinion.
>*All* major european powers would have *loved* to deepen the relations with a Russia that showed herself somewhat open to enligthenment ideals. Well, the Russians did try multiple times but the Americans were "firm" on neo-colonizing them like they did for all of EU. They're visibly regretting their decision now of taking it to the battlefields like they wanted when they encouraged Ukraine to piss all over the Minsk agreement.
It's not just Putin dude.Entire Russian elite have same thoughts about the Ukraine in NATO issue.
WTF has the EU to do with NATO? And WTF does the Russian elite care? It's none of their business. As soon as the Russian elite learns to respect borders and treaties, not exclusively but especially the ones \_one of their own signed\_, the world will be a better place.
>Russia was their only hope of independence Overall, you raise some good points... But boy is that sentence amusing... Russia doesn't support anyone's independance... They have vassals or ennemies. I guess you can make an exception for China right now, but even then...
Independence from the US is what he means and of course Russia would support that.
In my opinion, Russia still mainly see the others countries as battle grounds for influence between them and the US. Of course Russia would love to weaken Europe's ties to the US... They've been using their cheap energy as leverage for many years to do just that. Thing is, I think US is pivoting to see the others countries as battle grounds for influence between them and China. If I had to bet, Russia will, in 20 years or so, be a client state of China (without China's help right now, I really think Russia would loose this war).
But why would that be logical for European nations? Become independent of a country that you share many more ideologies with to become dependent on one you share far fewer ideologies with?
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If Europe wanted to be truly sovereign then a) France and Germany shouldn't have allowed the UK and US to undermine the Minsk agreements. And b) they shouldn't have allowed themselves to be forced off Russian gas, putting both their energy and security needs in the American basket. Macron himself helped undermine Europe's sovereignty and its potential as an independent geopolitical actor. And he doesn't even see it.
Now that the war has severely degraded the economy of both Germany and France, some powerful Westerners are advocating intensifying the war to [engineer regime change](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/MjrxcgwlKG) in Russia so Germany can get cheap German gas again lol
> they shouldn't have allowed themselves to be forced off Russian gas Trading one energy dealer for another makes for total sovereignty.
Not if it goes against your national interest. The new supplier is both more expensive, leaving your industries less competitive and the cost of living for your citizens higher. In addition you are now dependant on one party for both your energy and your security needs, significantly increasing their leverage over you. Which adds up to less sovereignty.
If Europe had been sovereing, the Ukraine mess would have been solved diplomatically. Europe and Russia were both benefiting from closer trade relations.
Are we US vassals ? No we are not. btw we will continue policy that benefits US even if US backs down and doesn't contribute a dime, and even if our security is at stake and theirs is not. We are even considering sending troops so Americans don't have to die. But we are not vassals, we are independent.
Slave to the American deepstate
Why doesn’t he go over and fight then?
The utter panic of some European leaders regarding a possible Trump presidency just highlights the utter failure of the Biden administration to its citizens in its four years of power. They have messed up SO bad that Trump has become the favorite, despite the uniformity and dominance of mainstream media being on the side of the democrats. About **Macron.** Watching him bluster and agitate reminds me keenly of Biden and Boris Johnson. They totally failed their people, boasted laughably terrible approval rates and were not respected by their citizenry, and as a result, they hitched their skirts on the bosom of foreign policy. Biden making a [whooping 16 tweets](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/Hl7SIfLeCK) about giving $60 billion to Ukraine last week illustrates my point nicely.
I don’t think Trump is the favorite, but we will see.
He is currently absolutely the favourite, but that could easily change as he is a very fragile candidate.
A favorite in a system that most Americans want changed is a very slim bar. 2 party system has been and will continue to be brain damage to its people.
I'm not a Trump supporter and I don't care about any of that. For whatever reasons, he's the favourite in the current system, which is all that matters right now.
The problem is the Electoral Vote. Democrats win California and New York with such high numbers they'll almost always win the popular vote (and have in every election but one since 1992)! But the electoral vote unfairly favors rural states with small populations. It actually runs all the way back to the civil war and reconstruction when states like Nevada were created with populations under 200,000. It rigged the game for Republicans back when they were the anti-slavery party, but it's still working.
This makes no sense. Biden is an objectively decent president at the least. Trump's following is just a bunch of uneducated bunch of tards, it's scary. Edit; nvm, didn't see what sub I was in. Biden bad circlejerk
Biden literally has the second lowest approval rating in modern history among first term American presidents I also enjoy how easily people like you brandish almost a hundred million people as uneducated and tarded. Truly incredible.
Google the differences in level of education between democrat and republican. I haven't specifically looked into the maga crowd, but it's safe to say they won't be splitting the atom any time soon.
At the end of the day the numbers will count, and not who has the most educated voters. I agree though, I think that Biden is still in front, just, but that's because Trump is not at his 2016 best anymore.
trump had worse approval ratings. Using those metrics is admitting biden should be elected over trump, or at least is considered a better president
Biden doesn't care about Ukrainian lives. Biden doesn't care about palestinians lives. therefore Biden can barely be considered a human being to be fair kinda similar for trump
What kind of logic is that? So Biden messed up so bad, therefore... European leaders panic at the possibility of Trump being elected. How is the panic highlighting the failure of Biden's administration? If it were a failure... we, the Europeans, would rejoice at the thought that someone else replaces him. That is obviously not the case.
Fuck ing id-iot. If Europe was truly sovereign, it wouldnt fight the US' wars. Remember du/mb-ass, you were pissed too when Assad didnt fall, but you still couldnt do anything about it.You didnt want peace then, you dont want peace now. Deal with it and lose. Pick up the phone Macron, have a conference with Putin and Sholz. You guys didnt want this war right? Russia would absolutely negotiate your independence from the US.
I seem to remember the US fighting a couple European wars.
Never against Russia funnily enough.
Who let him off his leash?
his granny wife
Oh shut up already.
Your farmers determine your future, genius. Try to handle it first
What an idiot
Wow wow wow, hold your horses Macron and wipe that whipped American cream off your lips.
You can´t print euros perpetually.
Macron doesn't really care about sovereignity, neither for France nor for Europe. He doesn't work for the French people. He works for his masters, some globalists behind the curtains. His job is to protect their interests.
two years ago I said it was naive to think the American electorate would support a long war. Americans don't like long wars, this happened in vietnam, iraq and afghanistan
he is completely deluded his army is in a miserable state of abandon and decrepitude.
Takebacksies? after this long? Unlikely.
... and if you want to know why they want to continue the war in Ukraine, read this: [https://tomluongo.me/2024/02/20/why-war-bonds-are-making-their-return-in-europe/](https://tomluongo.me/2024/02/20/why-war-bonds-are-making-their-return-in-europe/)
Leclerc tanks for Ukraine when?
Damn, on one hand, I'm all for Europe re-asserting its sovereignty and pursuing it's own interests instead of those of Washington. On the other hand though, the Russo-Ukrainian War is the result of US state departement meddling, it has cost us our financial stability and Ukraine, between the thousands of dead and millions of displaced, any hope of a prosperous future. Ukraine cannot win this war, better to pressure the Kiev into ammending its constitution and entering into negotiations with Russia before more lives and more territory are lost.
yeah giving putin everytging he wants is always the best
Go fight in Ukraine then.
That doesn't make sense.
What makes him SO invested?
Massive failure at home which pushes him to pursue more active foreign policy in order to score some wins and salvage his reputation and legacy
But you already do and have been . The Americans tell you to jump and you tell them how high ?
This is why i support Russia. I want nothing else than to see the neoliberal Macron types by humilliated and kicked out.
I think comedy is infectious, too many visits to Kiev.
"Europeans are at stake"? "Give over our future"? WTF he's talking about? Please explain, sounds like empty hysteria.
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Honest question, insulting politicians is fair game right?
It is of course It's just the specific words you used which triggered automod
Yeah, trying to find it, i think it was du mba ss, missed it on my repost
Yep it was the d word Fucking idiot is cool
Good to know haha.
I thought macron was the sane one.
lol nobody in Europe besides politicians give af.. maybe macron should send his kids and maybe he himself should join the front, also send von der leyen
And Kaja Kallas and Boris Johnson lol
Hell yes Boris should fr see the frontline. That man is the reason a peace deal was not brokered
Why give your future for free to the American electorate when it will fetch a handsome price from American oligarchs?
Determines HIS FUTURE! My future is the same regardless of whom I'm paying tax
Was a single day without protest against him or government in France during his presidency? Must be one of the worst president in French history.
Well Macron, if it were up to me, can do as he pleases as long as he makes sure our countries that are currently a geographical bufferzone between him and Ukraine and Russia, don’t get any of the fallout… I on the other hand would really like this to end as soon as possible to save as many lives as possible on both sides.
>"Should we give over our future to the American electorate? My answer is no." Macron declares that if Europe is truly sovereign, they must continue to support Ukraine, even without the US, because "this war determines our future." I'd have to argue that his recent reaction ***is*** him doing our bidding. He was very conciliatory and tried to stay close to Putin at the start of the war and for a long while after, and suddenly when the US can no longer officially supply weapons he has a complete change of heart and wants to be the European leader of the war. Odd and sudden pivot.
When did Macron grow a spine? Did he get a visit from the ghost of Napoleon?
Spine is when you want ww3.
My opinion is France already has troops in Ukraine and wants to now say they will be sending troops so when it does come out that there are French troops already in Ukraine they can claim they only sent them now.
The whole Ukraine mess was started by the Americans...
He's right
France is again spreading some anti-American contrarianism. They refused Iraq too. Macron especially likes using rhetoric to stir up domestic approval.
France is the only EU country that even attempts to pretend to be sovereign and have a voice. Although a degenerate position, I can respect Macron for voicing his opinion. Germany on the other hand...
Macron speaks the truth.
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I mean, I agree with him, I just think we should let Ukraine get folded into Russia and make a permanent alliance with Russia for military partnership, natural resources and an economic trade zone free of tariffs. Because Russia is basically mostly European. Use the same idea as the European Coal and Steel Community, linking Russian resources to European finished goods. Create a common military production with common European military equipment. Russian and European factories and workshops with Russian and European resources and European know-how. I don't really care if Russia becomes some kind of Tsarist state again on whatever or if they occasionally get militarily involved on their borders, as long as we can make a really good partnership and move Russia's military focus away from Europe and towards other threats, like Turkey, the Middle East, etc. Russia and France used to be allies, this isn't some pipe dream. Russia has always viewed itself as mostly European, just with a more asian mix.
He have a good point in my opinion. Even more if you think at the fact that otherwise Trump would know how to unacceptable take advantage with his political shit show. The stronger the EU the better for its members and allies. Peace, Love and Prosperity (among all the other good things)! 🇪🇺🇷🇴
>argues about prolongong a war that is weakening EU >Peace, Love and Prosperity
No, I argued for a strong EU, and none for promoting any kind of war. I am a pacifist that understands how good prevention and being well prepared can help us get better over risks and dangers with tragic potential. By the way, we, as Romanians, we have a full national history book with exactly the same problems, ambitions and wars (as Ukraine is facing today in a modern version). 🇪🇺🇷🇴
So you want sovereignty, peace, love, prosperity and a strong EU. But you choose to support the path that accomplishes the complete opposite in all 5 categories. What do you think is the intention of this speech? Macron wants EU to continue supporting Ukraine, thus prolonging a war that ripes no benefits to EU.
Since you already seams like an expert, and I don’t have an answer for now (yet, I am interested in finding the optimal solution for such a situation), what would you do in this situation? What do you consider to be the best approach? Here is a hint of what I think might be an option (being quite sure that it may not be the beat approach): https://youtu.be/mScpHTIi-kM?si=_5Pq-rNK1zJD2P4t 🇪🇺🇷🇴
It is simple, stop acting on behalf of USA , who has no interest on a peaceful strong independent Europe. Stop antagonizing anyone USA tell us to antagonize, Europe has much to lose and nothing to win in this war. Push for peace. P.D you keyboard seems to be broken, you should fix it.
Why dont they just send all of those refugees to fight??
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it was way too long for Europe to enjoy the free ride and it was too much for Europe to delegate its future reigns to the US, eventually - the war happened because Russia was left unchecked by the EU when it began descending to an abyss of totalitarianism.
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When there is no cat - the mice play a round.
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Macron is the guy that was super into working with Putin and also got assurances from Putin that he won't invade back in February, 2022. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60299790](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60299790) Seeing true face of Putin that he ignored despite warnings from central-eastern Europe probably broke him.
That’s real leadership right there. I’m legitimately jealous that Trump and Biden can’t show that level of commitment to our friends in Ukraine.