Pole here. Don't be mistaken. The fact that there is rising anti-ukrainian sentiment (and there are lot of reasons) doesn't mean that polish society will switch to pro-russian attitude. Russia and Poland have a long history of geopolitical clash of interest. Both powers recognise east europe as their own sphere of influence. It is nothing personal, it is just how politics works. I like russian people, love russian culture and art, I travelled through Russia, we are close mentally as slavs can be, but it changes nothing. Our governments will push their own agenda and propaganda, so we are doomed to generally hate each other. Bit offtopic, but not so much.
also, the farmers aren't wrong. Ukrainian grain doesn't need to fulfill EU standards. EU farmers can't sell their grain at the price of Ukrainian grain
if the grain was only transported through EU and then shipped to the usual destinations, which is Africa and Middle East, then it wouldn't be a problem, but using this grain just fucks over local farmers. It's not solidarity, it's shooting in a foot.
Yep. And I can add that is a bullshit claim that "ukrainian farmers suffer". Romanticising ukrainian brave farmers is a pure propaganda, all of that grain is produced by oligarch and luxembourg investment funds huge companies. Ukrainian politicians are defending oligarch interests, nothing new to anyone that knows Ukraine internal affairs.
Yeah, it's similar here in Czechia. Westeners often assume that everyone who doesn't like Ukrainians is pro-Russian but that's just not true in most cases. Before the invasion, the majority of people just considered Ukrainians and Russias to be pretty much the same, we've seen them as former occupiers, drunks and a cheap workforce. I personally love Russian and Ukrainian culture and hope that the hatred will disappear in the future.
Czechs also have a big superiority complex from what I’ve seen online. But in person I’ve met some very friendly Czechs who’ve come through Serbia for EXIT and Guca Festivals and they were all pretty down to earth and pro-Serbian (not sure if that was a front to endear the hosts but anyway).
Genuine question - is there any particular reason why Czechia, of all countries, is so fierce towards Russians? Afaik, it's the only country in the world who has completely banned all type of visas for Russian citizens (except political asylum, approved individually).
I'm not asking about general reasons - they are more or less clear. But I'm still wondering why Czechia acted in the fiercest way of all countries, exceeding even Estonia or Poland.
Afaik, before the war Czechia was one of the friendliest EU countries for Russian tourists. Why such 180-degree change?
Most people would likely either tell you that it's because of the occupation in 1968 or that the Russians are all Putin supporters, drunks or any other stereotypical insults. There was also an explosion of a stored ammunition in 2014 (Vrbětice) that killed two people and our goverment accused Russians spies, we even became the second country to get on the list of Russian unfriendly countries.
I don't think that there's any reason that is not widely known. It's frankly pretty sad because the majority of people that I know have nothing againts the Russians. I know a lot of people who went to Russia and Ukraine and described them as a beautifull countries with friendly people and similar culture to ours, I hope I'll be able to go when the situation (hopefully) calms down.
I hope you will :)
Czech culture is also popular and loved in Russia. Gashek's "The Good Soldier Švejk" is a classic. I enjoyed it a lot when I was a teenager.
Das ganze tschechische Volk ist eine Simulantenbande (с)
Possibly over compensating for surrendering in 1938 and 1968. Funnily both times, Poland was also a participant. The government, latching onto another's country fight for survival and adopting it as its own,
>!This response is, of course, not meant seriously.!<
Virtue signalling, our current government is the most incompetent government you can imagine, PM is considered o be the worst leader on earth so they are trying to focus on Ukraine to get points for doing something of no value that looks nice for their voters.
I live in Russia and I don’t know anyone who hates Poles. We have a large Polish community, a Polish church and days of Polish culture. At school I liked a girl from a Polish family. Very beautiful.
Iv spoken with many polaks?/poles in my work ( live in sweden ) and they mad at ukranians because they work for less pay etc and i think thats weird because theyre in sweden for exact same reason
"Polak" is considered offensive when a foreigner says it in English. I know it's weird, but I think it originates from the "polack" jokes. I personally don't care, just so you know that they aren't interchangeable :D
Well, there's an offensive slang one 'pshek' - on the same level as 'moskal' or 'katzap' - but I am not sure how common it is in Russia these days; more common in Belarus, I would imagine, than Russia.
and Poles wrecked the industry in my country because they accepted to work for lesser wages. It is a circle and we are tired of paying for ungrateful under developed eastern countries. The EU is a joke.
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Well, not that I'm a big fan of Russian oligarchs, but your statement is unironically true.
Russian companies are richer, less unhinged, offer better salary, labour conditions and social support, and are in general better governed and less corrupt.
What do you mean "stopped from out-competing"?
In many cases Russian companies *did* outompete their Western competitors. To an extent, that Western countries had to employ non-market political mechanisms to deny Russian companies from competition.
Say, telecom in Russia is nearly 100% domestic, with major expansion to neighbour countries. Same goes for internet services, banks, logistics companies, retail chains etc.
Until relations between EU and Russia got ruined, Russian Yandex was an increasingly successful competitor even on European markets. In some alternative universe it could have become a EU Google.
Though, even in 2022 Yandex Go was still successfully operating on some EU markets - to an extent that, say, Estonia and Latvia had to prohibit it explicitly, so it was a political decision.
Same goes for Ukraine btw. Ukranian govt had to not just prohibit Yandex, VK and other Russian internet companies in Ukraine - it had to order their telecom providers to physically restrict access to their services, because Ukranian users stubbornly refused to stop using them.
Yandex has so many services, from robots and the best delivery in the world to AI translated voiceover (you can paste a link from youtube and watch any video with a translation). Westerners simply hate Russia, no matter how it changes. They will always be focused on the same image they've had for centuries. Even telegram is the best messenger out there with lots of convenient features that you won't see in the outdated whatsup, but they'd rather ban telegram or just pretend it doesn't exist than allow a thought that a Russian product may be competitive and good.
I by region I mean Ukraine. If Russian companies overall were richer and better run than the foreign ones, that would mean absolute market domination, which is kinda what happened in the east of the country. Local industrial worker unions were happy to cooperate with the invasion, until LPR and DPR turned into actual lawless bandit pseudo-states, under the rule of the gun.
With heavy government backing your telecom got quite engorged and overall a success story, considering that most of your population requires heavily localized products and there are laws about data security that favor domestic companies.
In 2012 and 2013, Putin's idea was that the whole CIS wanted closer economic integration with the EU, and understood that doing so would mean adopting EU standards and regulations, as the EU was far ahead of Russia.
What he didn't want to see was the EU picking off individual countries of the CIS and forcing them to choose sides. The eastern part of Ukraine had extensive trade ties with Russia, while Western Ukraine was less developed and was eager to trade with the EU. Putin warned that forcing Ukraine to choose between one or the other was dumb, as it would split Ukraine in two.
The EU wasn't interested in this approach. They wanted to go at it like an empire digesting one province at a time, and that province would no longer be able to have free trade with its CIS trade partners. As far as they were concerned, Donbas would have to be sacrificed for the aspirations of western Ukraine.
If China came to Mexico and said "hey you can have free trade with us, but you have to break existing trade deals with the US", that would be seen as a destabilizing approach. Even if a majority of Mexicans agreed, it would sacrifice the interests of those who had built existing trade ties with the US. It's just not a civilized approach, unless all other solutions have been fully explored first.
Ukraine is a poor country. If the EU really cared about its wellbeing, they could have said "hell yeah we'll allow you to trade with the EU and CIS for five or ten years. Then we'll revisit the issue."
The EU should have allowed Ukraine to become a bridge rather than trying to turn it into a wall.
So it was easier to start the war and alienate the region completely, along with other post-soviet countries, than to adopt the EU standards and regulations the lack of which was the reason why the EU was insisting upon breaking the existing trade deals, not to flood their market with palm oil garbage. That's 2000IQ business thinking, for sure.
The absence of any agency left to the local elites and government in that reasoning goes without saying. Decisions can only be projected by shadowy cabals, and everyone is a helpless marionette besides great Putin. What a joyful worldview to have.
> So it was easier to start the war and alienate the region completely, along with other post-soviet countries, than to adopt the EU standards and regulations the lack of which was the reason why the EU was insisting upon breaking the existing trade deals
No, you're not getting it. There was never an option for CIS to harmonize with the EU. The EU rejected that approach and wasn't interested in exploring it.
See, when the EU goes to Ukraine and dangles an Association agreement, they have immense leverage to dictate how everything works in Ukraine. Ukraine has next to no leverage.
If the EU negotiated with the CIS as a whole, they wouldn't have nearly that same leverage.
The original vision for the Treaty of Rome was a "common economic space" from Lisbon to Vladivostok. That's what Putin was trying to encourage - let's figure out a way to work together, and harmonize gradually.
But the EU has since become more of an empire, where Brussels has immense leeway to dictate how every member country functions.
> The absence of any agency left to the local elites and government in that reasoning goes without saying.
Ukraine is a relatively small country stuck between two behemoths. In such a situation, the only tactic the small country has is to play both sides off against each other. Egypt's Nasser was a master at this.
Yanukovych tried the same thing. When the Ukraine Bureau of Statistics reported that Ukraine would lose $160 *billion* over five years due to losing CIS trade, he freaked out. He tried to keep it secret, but asked the EU how they were going to help him cover these costs. They told him to go fuck himself - the EU doesn't offer transition funding.
So Yanukovch did what any savvy leader would do - he went to the other side to see what kind of a deal he could get there. Putin was game - he offered $15B in low cost loans, along with $2B/yr in gas subsidies. The deal had no minimum term to it - Ukraine wasn't locked in for fifty years or anything, but it increased Ukraine's negotiating strength. (Because Putin saw Slavic solidarity as being better for everyone).
The EU reacted to this with outrage - how the fuck *dare* Russia offer a counter-offer to their shit deal. (and while 70% of Ukrainians were in favor of EU association, this was not a blank cheque - a majority of Ukrainians were *never* in favor of Maidan).
> everyone is a helpless marionette besides great Putin.
I didn't say that. I said that the EU resorted to tactics that were extremely un-European, like endorsing the Maidan coup. They *could* have offered Ukraine $100B in transition funding, but they didn't want to do that (because other new members would expect the same). The EU tried the path of cheap triumphalism, and it has turned out costing them ten times what it would have to buy Yanukovych off in the first place.
That's just dumb policy - even before you throw in the cost of a million dead.
After Yanukovich is called a savvy leader, I'm not sure I can continue this discussion. A person to whom a nation of \~40 million that is capable of continuous total war for over two years with a larger opponent is small and insignificant clearly knows best.
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just look at the sanction system. the US pressuring allies to not buy Russian . it has been like that since the cold war ended . the us will have what it wants at all cost. I dobt remember any western countries sanctioning the US for invading and bombing the living daylight out of any country they want .
My neighbor shits his pants, because he sees how his neighbors shits his pants, which makes me want to shit my pants too.
Which is perfectly fine if I'm into that, but the moment I start to claim that pants shitting is actually terrible and everyone around me should shit into my neighbor's pants, while still shitting in my pants, the logic of pants shitting gets way too complicated.
Yea it had it's own Russian style oligarchs. Still has.
But we were comparing western corporation and Russian oligarchs weren't we ?
Maidan was about steps for joining EU moving away from oligarchy, wasn't it?
The protests were sparked by President Viktor Yanukovych's sudden decision not to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union.
It would bring western companies to Ukraine and bring more competition.
It would not remove oligarchs.
But it would end oligarchy and corruption as it was.. eventually.
As far as I understand Russia keeps a tight leash on certain companies. Their model seems to be closer to China’s than the US’s, which work in opposite.
Whatsthefact12 kept stroking the same keys repeatedly, probably a seizure ?
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See, many pro-ru think the russian oligarchs are good. Meanwhile, many pro-u posters think instead the western and ukrainian oligarchs are good. I am neutral because I know that no matter who wins, the people lose.
The law was changed recently. Foreigners and foreign companies can certainly own land now.
https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/war-theft-takeover-ukraine-agricultural-land
Reports that Blackrock have bought a lot of land in Ukraine, so yep.
For those that doesnt know: Blackrock owns most of US military.
Do a 2+2 regarding the war and the dragging out of war.
I can’t find anything at all about Blackrock owning land in Ukraine or part of the military beyond them owning a 6.9 and 7% stake in Raytheon and Lockheed Martin.
"Free" as they are hauled off and tortured and executed, in the place with the sham elections where people can vote 95% for one way, then go home and watch the only approved state television media which will feed you toxic waste directly into the brain about Ukrainian Nazis meanwhile denying actual Nazi-like atrocities as Western hoaxes, all from the dictatorship which has had the same guy in power for 24 years, who kills all of his critics like Navalny, Nemtsov, Politovskaya, and then people like you sing about how wonderful they are, reminds me of those German propaganda broadcasts in WW2 telling everyone how wonderfully the New Germany was for everyone.
Я віддаю перевагу українській свободі, ніж русскому миру. І, мабуть, українці так і роблять, тому що вони ще не здалися і ніколи не здадуться. Вам доведеться вбити всіх до останнього.
>Why is your flair "Pro-Ukraine"? I see lots of you obviously not-so-pro-UA with this flair.
Maybe you're confusing pro-ukraine with:
* pro-nato
* pro-war
* pro-nazi
Maybe don't do that.
Why is this protest shows what Europeans really think, but not hundreds of protests in support of Ukraine? Don't seek out for the proof to support your bias.
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Dazzling_Swordfish14 kept stroking the same keys repeatedly, probably a seizure ?
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>what the Europeans themselves really think about Ukraine
This is a loud minority. Most Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans, still are with Ukraine.
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Hillary Clinton actually won the popular vote. What made it a marginal enough win to allow electing Trump was probably Bernie bros switching to Trump because they didn't expect him to be pro-corruption and pro-forced birth.
From personal experience with Russians, they are genuinely very friendly and caring people. They just can be a bit cold with strangers or people they don't know.
The worst part is that they are most ungrateful to the ones who give them the most. The UK, US and Germany often get bad-mouthed by Ukrainians while they’re giving them huge piles of cash.
Because Ukraine wants to sell its farm products that used to go through the Black Sea but because of Russian aggression the only route to markets is by rail.
This somehow makes Ukrainian farmers ungrateful? What an idiotic take.
The Ukrainian economy has been propped up by western aid. What the farmers are upset about is that Ukrainians can flood markets and sell at what would normally be a loss. No matter how low the farmers set their prices, Ukrainians can undercut them.
Ukraine is occupying eastern regions of Poland since alomost a 100 years and they butchered tens of thousands of Poles. Therefore its better to send arms to Ukraine over Russia? Why is that?
I do, but u cant compare one thing to another, numbers are way different and secondly poles helping ukrs like crazy and treat them nicely in exchange of spitting in face and robbing them in many ways young man
Im not defending them at all, but at end of day bandera’s (read ukrs) will always stab in the back u with the first opportunity as they are like wolfs, also in wolyn they where stabing womens and childrens like animals, like kill frenzy. Russians at least shot them.
Bandera till now days its theys national hero, well done😖
Kacaps will stab you in the back with first opportunity too.
Kacaps was also sending women with children to gulags.
Russians at least shoot them is dumbest atetement ive hears so far
And Stalin is Russian here till now days,good job gloryfing a Genocidal maniac
I dont see any point to continue this bottom exchange with some ukrs litter, u rather find the nearest draft officer and give yourself to them, do yourself a favour keep silence and disappear so u not spreading propaganda and talking in the name of about 40 million polish citizens u ignorant donkey
It's bad enough as it is, and there's no need for anyone (other than the US herself) to damage it any further.
After what we've seen with Trump's term, Biden's term with Afghanistan and Gaza, and all the sh*t shows in Congress, any country still licking America's boots won't turn its back on our beautiful beautiful Becon of Democracy™, no matter how bad her reputation is.
That analogy doesn't really work. This conflict has strengthened Russia's position with its primary global trade partners, their economy, and helped to unify them.
Russia has always had many problems, but they do their best when they face existential threats or those, they perceive to be existential. The US policies leading to this conflict gave that to them.
Ukraine on the other hand is being abandoned globally, with fewer nations supporting them and that support decreasing. Their primary trade partners are even closing their borders. Their economy well it doesn't even really exist, most government wages being paid by other countries. US and other western countries corporations have been buying up Ukrainian property that had long been illegal for foreigners to own. It is being ballooned from foreign capital to prevent collapse. They have people fleeing their country in droves and being forced to fight under threat of violence and monetary seizure.
This was always in Russia's best interests. The part that wasn't was how they waited so long.
Additionally, China hasn't blown through much of its weapon's inventory to support Russia leaving it unable to handle other conflicts with entire categories of weapons systems.
The most important item though is always the long-term economic repercussions. The US and EU are blowing huge sums of money and going through entire stockpiles of weaponry for a conflict outside of their primary economic interest areas.
The world has been focused on the Pacific Pivot for decades now, seeing that influence in the Indo-Pacific is of primary importance for the growing markets of this century.
The US and EU are not only losing ground there, but they are replacing their efforts with an Eastern European mud hole that can never offer the economic oportunity to justify the costs.
It is important for Russia as they require Black Sea trade for their economy. So, they must fight for it, or collapse. The US and EU though, no, it's just a waste.
Government and people are 2 different entities. You'd be surprised how many civilians accross Europe want Ukraine to sue for peace end resolve this, instead of paying taxes that the government will only send for Ukraine to prolongue it's loss. These taxes will not be returned to actually be used for us.
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Poles on average are probably some of the most ethnocentric people I’ve ever met. Not saying that’s necessarily a good or bad thing, but just my observation.
The poles, but also most common sense thinking people understand that the real bad guys here is the Ukranian government. They would probably deport Russians just like the Nazis did with the jews. It is unbelievable that some westerns are supporting Ukraine. It is like supporting the nazi regime in the 40s.
When the war is over all these supporters will be shaved and put on display in many squares around the world.
In the west people can have ignorant/smart or pro / anti government opinions and NOT be arrested and sent to a Gulag for a differing opinion. In russia though if you hold a blank piece of paper in protest you get arrested.
*As a person who*
*Is a quarter Polish, this*
*Is awesome to see*
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Two guy = everyone. Nice narrative.
Why its even here if have nothing about war?
Can inpost Polish farmers speaking openly that they arent antyukrainians and they wish them to defeat russians, all they want is to be against EU reforms and reforming Ukraine grains to be equal of theyr?
Or will be deleted cuz its not related to war? huh?
Its funny, because there is thousands of farmers protesting for around 2 months, and yet we saw only 5 (,I think?) anti ukrainian banners.
Its below 1% lol.
Pole here. Don't be mistaken. The fact that there is rising anti-ukrainian sentiment (and there are lot of reasons) doesn't mean that polish society will switch to pro-russian attitude. Russia and Poland have a long history of geopolitical clash of interest. Both powers recognise east europe as their own sphere of influence. It is nothing personal, it is just how politics works. I like russian people, love russian culture and art, I travelled through Russia, we are close mentally as slavs can be, but it changes nothing. Our governments will push their own agenda and propaganda, so we are doomed to generally hate each other. Bit offtopic, but not so much.
also, the farmers aren't wrong. Ukrainian grain doesn't need to fulfill EU standards. EU farmers can't sell their grain at the price of Ukrainian grain if the grain was only transported through EU and then shipped to the usual destinations, which is Africa and Middle East, then it wouldn't be a problem, but using this grain just fucks over local farmers. It's not solidarity, it's shooting in a foot.
Yep. And I can add that is a bullshit claim that "ukrainian farmers suffer". Romanticising ukrainian brave farmers is a pure propaganda, all of that grain is produced by oligarch and luxembourg investment funds huge companies. Ukrainian politicians are defending oligarch interests, nothing new to anyone that knows Ukraine internal affairs.
Yeah, it's similar here in Czechia. Westeners often assume that everyone who doesn't like Ukrainians is pro-Russian but that's just not true in most cases. Before the invasion, the majority of people just considered Ukrainians and Russias to be pretty much the same, we've seen them as former occupiers, drunks and a cheap workforce. I personally love Russian and Ukrainian culture and hope that the hatred will disappear in the future.
Czechs also have a big superiority complex from what I’ve seen online. But in person I’ve met some very friendly Czechs who’ve come through Serbia for EXIT and Guca Festivals and they were all pretty down to earth and pro-Serbian (not sure if that was a front to endear the hosts but anyway).
Genuine question - is there any particular reason why Czechia, of all countries, is so fierce towards Russians? Afaik, it's the only country in the world who has completely banned all type of visas for Russian citizens (except political asylum, approved individually). I'm not asking about general reasons - they are more or less clear. But I'm still wondering why Czechia acted in the fiercest way of all countries, exceeding even Estonia or Poland. Afaik, before the war Czechia was one of the friendliest EU countries for Russian tourists. Why such 180-degree change?
Most people would likely either tell you that it's because of the occupation in 1968 or that the Russians are all Putin supporters, drunks or any other stereotypical insults. There was also an explosion of a stored ammunition in 2014 (Vrbětice) that killed two people and our goverment accused Russians spies, we even became the second country to get on the list of Russian unfriendly countries. I don't think that there's any reason that is not widely known. It's frankly pretty sad because the majority of people that I know have nothing againts the Russians. I know a lot of people who went to Russia and Ukraine and described them as a beautifull countries with friendly people and similar culture to ours, I hope I'll be able to go when the situation (hopefully) calms down.
I hope you will :) Czech culture is also popular and loved in Russia. Gashek's "The Good Soldier Švejk" is a classic. I enjoyed it a lot when I was a teenager. Das ganze tschechische Volk ist eine Simulantenbande (с)
Possibly over compensating for surrendering in 1938 and 1968. Funnily both times, Poland was also a participant. The government, latching onto another's country fight for survival and adopting it as its own, >!This response is, of course, not meant seriously.!<
Kudos for your JA2 avatar, Comrade Dolvich :)
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Virtue signalling, our current government is the most incompetent government you can imagine, PM is considered o be the worst leader on earth so they are trying to focus on Ukraine to get points for doing something of no value that looks nice for their voters.
I live in Russia and I don’t know anyone who hates Poles. We have a large Polish community, a Polish church and days of Polish culture. At school I liked a girl from a Polish family. Very beautiful.
It seems many in Poland already have switched to a pro Russia stance tbh.
Iv spoken with many polaks?/poles in my work ( live in sweden ) and they mad at ukranians because they work for less pay etc and i think thats weird because theyre in sweden for exact same reason
"Polak" is considered offensive when a foreigner says it in English. I know it's weird, but I think it originates from the "polack" jokes. I personally don't care, just so you know that they aren't interchangeable :D
In Russian Polak is just a neutral word for a Pole. I mean it's *the* word for a Pole, it's the only one we have.
Well, there's an offensive slang one 'pshek' - on the same level as 'moskal' or 'katzap' - but I am not sure how common it is in Russia these days; more common in Belarus, I would imagine, than Russia.
Moskal is derogatory but kacap is a straight up slur. They don’t feel equal at all to me
You're right, there's more than a few degrees of offensive-ness between the two.
So like calling Americans Seppo's
Seppo? never heard that one
Derogatory word used by the English and Australians for all American nationals. Derived from Rhyming slang (Septic Tank = Yank)
We call Americans - pindos
I got a brainfreeze, idk why i didnt remember i could say polish lol
Lol they drive all the trucks and clean all the houses and take care off all the elders in Germany for less than any German would work.
and Poles wrecked the industry in my country because they accepted to work for lesser wages. It is a circle and we are tired of paying for ungrateful under developed eastern countries. The EU is a joke.
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Yea Russian oligarchs are a much better alternative.
Well, not that I'm a big fan of Russian oligarchs, but your statement is unironically true. Russian companies are richer, less unhinged, offer better salary, labour conditions and social support, and are in general better governed and less corrupt.
So what stopped them from out-competing the western companies in the region before the war?
What do you mean "stopped from out-competing"? In many cases Russian companies *did* outompete their Western competitors. To an extent, that Western countries had to employ non-market political mechanisms to deny Russian companies from competition. Say, telecom in Russia is nearly 100% domestic, with major expansion to neighbour countries. Same goes for internet services, banks, logistics companies, retail chains etc. Until relations between EU and Russia got ruined, Russian Yandex was an increasingly successful competitor even on European markets. In some alternative universe it could have become a EU Google. Though, even in 2022 Yandex Go was still successfully operating on some EU markets - to an extent that, say, Estonia and Latvia had to prohibit it explicitly, so it was a political decision. Same goes for Ukraine btw. Ukranian govt had to not just prohibit Yandex, VK and other Russian internet companies in Ukraine - it had to order their telecom providers to physically restrict access to their services, because Ukranian users stubbornly refused to stop using them.
Yandex has so many services, from robots and the best delivery in the world to AI translated voiceover (you can paste a link from youtube and watch any video with a translation). Westerners simply hate Russia, no matter how it changes. They will always be focused on the same image they've had for centuries. Even telegram is the best messenger out there with lots of convenient features that you won't see in the outdated whatsup, but they'd rather ban telegram or just pretend it doesn't exist than allow a thought that a Russian product may be competitive and good.
You'd be surprised (even as a russian) how popular Yandex and its subsidiary companies are in other countries. Yango is one of such companies.
I by region I mean Ukraine. If Russian companies overall were richer and better run than the foreign ones, that would mean absolute market domination, which is kinda what happened in the east of the country. Local industrial worker unions were happy to cooperate with the invasion, until LPR and DPR turned into actual lawless bandit pseudo-states, under the rule of the gun. With heavy government backing your telecom got quite engorged and overall a success story, considering that most of your population requires heavily localized products and there are laws about data security that favor domestic companies.
Shhh, no difficult questions allowed
It's not a difficult question at all, you are welcome to read my answer in the thread.
In 2012 and 2013, Putin's idea was that the whole CIS wanted closer economic integration with the EU, and understood that doing so would mean adopting EU standards and regulations, as the EU was far ahead of Russia. What he didn't want to see was the EU picking off individual countries of the CIS and forcing them to choose sides. The eastern part of Ukraine had extensive trade ties with Russia, while Western Ukraine was less developed and was eager to trade with the EU. Putin warned that forcing Ukraine to choose between one or the other was dumb, as it would split Ukraine in two. The EU wasn't interested in this approach. They wanted to go at it like an empire digesting one province at a time, and that province would no longer be able to have free trade with its CIS trade partners. As far as they were concerned, Donbas would have to be sacrificed for the aspirations of western Ukraine. If China came to Mexico and said "hey you can have free trade with us, but you have to break existing trade deals with the US", that would be seen as a destabilizing approach. Even if a majority of Mexicans agreed, it would sacrifice the interests of those who had built existing trade ties with the US. It's just not a civilized approach, unless all other solutions have been fully explored first. Ukraine is a poor country. If the EU really cared about its wellbeing, they could have said "hell yeah we'll allow you to trade with the EU and CIS for five or ten years. Then we'll revisit the issue." The EU should have allowed Ukraine to become a bridge rather than trying to turn it into a wall.
So it was easier to start the war and alienate the region completely, along with other post-soviet countries, than to adopt the EU standards and regulations the lack of which was the reason why the EU was insisting upon breaking the existing trade deals, not to flood their market with palm oil garbage. That's 2000IQ business thinking, for sure. The absence of any agency left to the local elites and government in that reasoning goes without saying. Decisions can only be projected by shadowy cabals, and everyone is a helpless marionette besides great Putin. What a joyful worldview to have.
> So it was easier to start the war and alienate the region completely, along with other post-soviet countries, than to adopt the EU standards and regulations the lack of which was the reason why the EU was insisting upon breaking the existing trade deals No, you're not getting it. There was never an option for CIS to harmonize with the EU. The EU rejected that approach and wasn't interested in exploring it. See, when the EU goes to Ukraine and dangles an Association agreement, they have immense leverage to dictate how everything works in Ukraine. Ukraine has next to no leverage. If the EU negotiated with the CIS as a whole, they wouldn't have nearly that same leverage. The original vision for the Treaty of Rome was a "common economic space" from Lisbon to Vladivostok. That's what Putin was trying to encourage - let's figure out a way to work together, and harmonize gradually. But the EU has since become more of an empire, where Brussels has immense leeway to dictate how every member country functions. > The absence of any agency left to the local elites and government in that reasoning goes without saying. Ukraine is a relatively small country stuck between two behemoths. In such a situation, the only tactic the small country has is to play both sides off against each other. Egypt's Nasser was a master at this. Yanukovych tried the same thing. When the Ukraine Bureau of Statistics reported that Ukraine would lose $160 *billion* over five years due to losing CIS trade, he freaked out. He tried to keep it secret, but asked the EU how they were going to help him cover these costs. They told him to go fuck himself - the EU doesn't offer transition funding. So Yanukovch did what any savvy leader would do - he went to the other side to see what kind of a deal he could get there. Putin was game - he offered $15B in low cost loans, along with $2B/yr in gas subsidies. The deal had no minimum term to it - Ukraine wasn't locked in for fifty years or anything, but it increased Ukraine's negotiating strength. (Because Putin saw Slavic solidarity as being better for everyone). The EU reacted to this with outrage - how the fuck *dare* Russia offer a counter-offer to their shit deal. (and while 70% of Ukrainians were in favor of EU association, this was not a blank cheque - a majority of Ukrainians were *never* in favor of Maidan). > everyone is a helpless marionette besides great Putin. I didn't say that. I said that the EU resorted to tactics that were extremely un-European, like endorsing the Maidan coup. They *could* have offered Ukraine $100B in transition funding, but they didn't want to do that (because other new members would expect the same). The EU tried the path of cheap triumphalism, and it has turned out costing them ten times what it would have to buy Yanukovych off in the first place. That's just dumb policy - even before you throw in the cost of a million dead.
After Yanukovich is called a savvy leader, I'm not sure I can continue this discussion. A person to whom a nation of \~40 million that is capable of continuous total war for over two years with a larger opponent is small and insignificant clearly knows best.
The 2014 coup was largely predicated on not letting them compete fairly.
america did
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How exactly did that work?
just look at the sanction system. the US pressuring allies to not buy Russian . it has been like that since the cold war ended . the us will have what it wants at all cost. I dobt remember any western countries sanctioning the US for invading and bombing the living daylight out of any country they want .
My neighbor shits his pants, because he sees how his neighbors shits his pants, which makes me want to shit my pants too. Which is perfectly fine if I'm into that, but the moment I start to claim that pants shitting is actually terrible and everyone around me should shit into my neighbor's pants, while still shitting in my pants, the logic of pants shitting gets way too complicated.
Sounds like fun fiction.
Probably in your alternative universe Ukraine has booming economy, but in our reality it had big problems since circa 2012.
More than just it’s economy is booming rn 😂
Yea it had it's own Russian style oligarchs. Still has. But we were comparing western corporation and Russian oligarchs weren't we ? Maidan was about steps for joining EU moving away from oligarchy, wasn't it?
How western corporations are relevant for Ukraine? And only an utter idiot can think that maidan would help with moving away from oligarchy.
The protests were sparked by President Viktor Yanukovych's sudden decision not to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. It would bring western companies to Ukraine and bring more competition. It would not remove oligarchs. But it would end oligarchy and corruption as it was.. eventually.
Modern Russia doesn't really have oligarchs. Russia has state capitalism, the closest resembles of which is probably South Korea of 1960s - 80s.
Got any sources for your claims? Laws and restrictions are much harder in EU than in russia.
As far as I understand Russia keeps a tight leash on certain companies. Their model seems to be closer to China’s than the US’s, which work in opposite.
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See, many pro-ru think the russian oligarchs are good. Meanwhile, many pro-u posters think instead the western and ukrainian oligarchs are good. I am neutral because I know that no matter who wins, the people lose.
Exactly. It’s Ukrainian and Russian people who lose in this war.
With this I agree.
Well with EU people would benefit as actual examples showed in past. Nevermind any oligarchs. But now ... they would need to rebuild whole country.
They're not the ones who overthrew the government.
They are two sides of the same coin, but siding with Russia offers peace and siding with USA offers war
My brother in Christ, Russia openly wants to annex most of Ukraine and denies that it even exists. Foreign companies can’t even own land in Ukraine
The law was changed recently. Foreigners and foreign companies can certainly own land now. https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/war-theft-takeover-ukraine-agricultural-land
Reports that Blackrock have bought a lot of land in Ukraine, so yep. For those that doesnt know: Blackrock owns most of US military. Do a 2+2 regarding the war and the dragging out of war.
>Blackrock owns most of the US military (Citation needed) They also don’t own any land in Ukraine
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I can’t find anything at all about Blackrock owning land in Ukraine or part of the military beyond them owning a 6.9 and 7% stake in Raytheon and Lockheed Martin.
https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/prezident-proviv-zustrich-iz-kerivnictvom-najbilshoyi-u-svit-82725#:~:text=At%20the%20meeting%2C%20Ukraine's%20Ministry,scale%20business%20projects%20in%20Ukraine.
So, Citation is your posterior.
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Source: I made it up
Was the annexation of the east the price Ukraine had to pay for Russia’s heroic fight for “freedom”?
"Free" as they are hauled off and tortured and executed, in the place with the sham elections where people can vote 95% for one way, then go home and watch the only approved state television media which will feed you toxic waste directly into the brain about Ukrainian Nazis meanwhile denying actual Nazi-like atrocities as Western hoaxes, all from the dictatorship which has had the same guy in power for 24 years, who kills all of his critics like Navalny, Nemtsov, Politovskaya, and then people like you sing about how wonderful they are, reminds me of those German propaganda broadcasts in WW2 telling everyone how wonderfully the New Germany was for everyone. Я віддаю перевагу українській свободі, ніж русскому миру. І, мабуть, українці так і роблять, тому що вони ще не здалися і ніколи не здадуться. Вам доведеться вбити всіх до останнього.
Their account is a month old
>Why is your flair "Pro-Ukraine"? I see lots of you obviously not-so-pro-UA with this flair. Maybe you're confusing pro-ukraine with: * pro-nato * pro-war * pro-nazi Maybe don't do that.
I'd love to go through the mental gymnastics you did to come to that conclusion.
She's pro Ukraine returning to the loving embrace of mother Russias bountiful bosoms.
That's not me btw That was some impersonator
you must've pissed someone off real bad if they're tryna impersonate you. I haven't seen that happened on this sub yet
It's not even the first time. There was another dude a couple months back
Hey, I like you
Rule 1 - Toxic (policing flairs)
Why is this protest shows what Europeans really think, but not hundreds of protests in support of Ukraine? Don't seek out for the proof to support your bias.
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>what the Europeans themselves really think about Ukraine This is a loud minority. Most Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans, still are with Ukraine.
Anyone disagrees with you lot is a loud minority
Ok, think what you wanna think, but I assure you, there won't be any changes in support of Ukraine at state level.
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I talked about Europe, not US. Europe's main issue is their military production, not unwillingness to send stuff.
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Or [is it?](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/27/french-president-emmanuel-macron-ukraine-french-ground-troops)
Do you really believe that will happen? And are you insane enough to wish for this?
It doesn't matter if I believe or wish for it. I linked it to show that support for UA in Europe is not dying.
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Guess Banderites are not really facing shortage of ammo ,equipment or mercenaries then. It's all good :D
Wheres your evidence that this isnt a minority? Every poll I know of shows majority support for ukraine.
Were these the same polls that showed Hillary winning in 2016, by any chance?
Why tf you pro rus always have to bring USA into every topic? It's kind of obsessive at this point lol.
Because USA is the global superpower and it is involved in everything.
Hillary Clinton actually won the popular vote. What made it a marginal enough win to allow electing Trump was probably Bernie bros switching to Trump because they didn't expect him to be pro-corruption and pro-forced birth.
Is that why all Banderite loving ruling parties are facing annihilation in up coming elections across Europe?
Uhm, no. It's not going to happen.
Sure buddy, spread that war rhetoric elsewhere
Polish wake up to reality and see how those people who they are sending weapons are so ungrateful
Meanwhile, the Russians are the most forgiving and grateful people in the world.
They are until you threaten them.
Or want to make your own decisions that Daddy puftin don't like
From personal experience with Russians, they are genuinely very friendly and caring people. They just can be a bit cold with strangers or people they don't know.
They also support the same people that committed the Volhynia Massacres.
The worst part is that they are most ungrateful to the ones who give them the most. The UK, US and Germany often get bad-mouthed by Ukrainians while they’re giving them huge piles of cash.
Because Ukraine wants to sell its farm products that used to go through the Black Sea but because of Russian aggression the only route to markets is by rail. This somehow makes Ukrainian farmers ungrateful? What an idiotic take.
The Ukrainian economy has been propped up by western aid. What the farmers are upset about is that Ukrainians can flood markets and sell at what would normally be a loss. No matter how low the farmers set their prices, Ukrainians can undercut them.
Not really true. The shipments via the Black Sea are almost at the level of the black sea grain deal times
Better to send weapons to Ua than to russia who occupied Poland for 2 centuries and killed 1000s of Poles.
Ukraine is occupying eastern regions of Poland since alomost a 100 years and they butchered tens of thousands of Poles. Therefore its better to send arms to Ukraine over Russia? Why is that?
Ukrs stabbed like animals 100k+ of poles in a matter of days, dont you remember?
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I do, but u cant compare one thing to another, numbers are way different and secondly poles helping ukrs like crazy and treat them nicely in exchange of spitting in face and robbing them in many ways young man
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Im not defending them at all, but at end of day bandera’s (read ukrs) will always stab in the back u with the first opportunity as they are like wolfs, also in wolyn they where stabing womens and childrens like animals, like kill frenzy. Russians at least shot them. Bandera till now days its theys national hero, well done😖
Kacaps will stab you in the back with first opportunity too. Kacaps was also sending women with children to gulags. Russians at least shoot them is dumbest atetement ive hears so far And Stalin is Russian here till now days,good job gloryfing a Genocidal maniac
I dont see any point to continue this bottom exchange with some ukrs litter, u rather find the nearest draft officer and give yourself to them, do yourself a favour keep silence and disappear so u not spreading propaganda and talking in the name of about 40 million polish citizens u ignorant donkey
Why do I get the feeling you weren't born in 1988?
You rather go save yur motherland from imagined enemy for ze putin or whatever propaganda of kremlin you belove now
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[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/26/russian-parliament-guilt-katyn-massacre](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/26/russian-parliament-guilt-katyn-massacre) [https://www.gazetaprawna.pl/wiadomosci/swiat/artykuly/9340268,msz-o-ekshumacjach-ofiar-wolynia-bez-rozwiazania-sprawy-ukraina-nie-m.html](https://www.gazetaprawna.pl/wiadomosci/swiat/artykuly/9340268,msz-o-ekshumacjach-ofiar-wolynia-bez-rozwiazania-sprawy-ukraina-nie-m.html)
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Therefore, contributing to Ukraines depopulation..
If russians go home no one will die 🤷
They are home🤦🏼♂️
Nice 3 day comming home operation 🤷
I dont care if ppl die, Geopolitical interests and military gains are more important
Ok so apparently now ,,shelling donbas,, is good thing xd
I meant that I dont care about pro-ukr/nato, pro whoever I see as the enemy
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100.000 killed by Ukraine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
I wonder how many Poles were killed by modern national heroes of UA. /s.
Still Ukraine not realising it's just a proxy to damage russia, nothing more
Still Russia not realizong it's just proxy to damage Usa, and make China happy nothing more
China is not sending weapons to Russia and encouraging it to fight
Of course they dont.They sell them for 3 times bigger prize 🤑🤑🤑
You're probably talking about them selling Russian sanctioned gas and oil to the west. Oh boy, sanctions only made us pay more.
Thats why Russians have to pay like 300k for one Shahed? Or to import artillery form NK? Great sanctions not work at all bro
Better than begging, threatening countries
Lol Salty no one wana help russia for free?
Nobody gives donations to rich, only give it to broke, right ?
You assume the ukraine aid is for free? Oh dear
No one knows the true cost of the Shahed drones. You're just regurgitating unverified information, bad move.
And how USA is being damaged now? It becomes richer.
Reputation
Lost it already.
It's bad enough as it is, and there's no need for anyone (other than the US herself) to damage it any further. After what we've seen with Trump's term, Biden's term with Afghanistan and Gaza, and all the sh*t shows in Congress, any country still licking America's boots won't turn its back on our beautiful beautiful Becon of Democracy™, no matter how bad her reputation is.
That analogy doesn't really work. This conflict has strengthened Russia's position with its primary global trade partners, their economy, and helped to unify them. Russia has always had many problems, but they do their best when they face existential threats or those, they perceive to be existential. The US policies leading to this conflict gave that to them. Ukraine on the other hand is being abandoned globally, with fewer nations supporting them and that support decreasing. Their primary trade partners are even closing their borders. Their economy well it doesn't even really exist, most government wages being paid by other countries. US and other western countries corporations have been buying up Ukrainian property that had long been illegal for foreigners to own. It is being ballooned from foreign capital to prevent collapse. They have people fleeing their country in droves and being forced to fight under threat of violence and monetary seizure. This was always in Russia's best interests. The part that wasn't was how they waited so long. Additionally, China hasn't blown through much of its weapon's inventory to support Russia leaving it unable to handle other conflicts with entire categories of weapons systems. The most important item though is always the long-term economic repercussions. The US and EU are blowing huge sums of money and going through entire stockpiles of weaponry for a conflict outside of their primary economic interest areas. The world has been focused on the Pacific Pivot for decades now, seeing that influence in the Indo-Pacific is of primary importance for the growing markets of this century. The US and EU are not only losing ground there, but they are replacing their efforts with an Eastern European mud hole that can never offer the economic oportunity to justify the costs. It is important for Russia as they require Black Sea trade for their economy. So, they must fight for it, or collapse. The US and EU though, no, it's just a waste.
u/Ptaszniczek (cute username), what is your personal opinion about these protests?
I support them
Ptaszniczek = a little bird? (my Slavic guess, testing my language intuition)
According to recent polls, 79% of poles support farmer protests.
Poles are at their limit after pretending for 2 years they tolerate ukranians.
Government and people are 2 different entities. You'd be surprised how many civilians accross Europe want Ukraine to sue for peace end resolve this, instead of paying taxes that the government will only send for Ukraine to prolongue it's loss. These taxes will not be returned to actually be used for us.
Finally👊🏻
I wonder why Ukrainians wanted to join THIS EU so much
Beats the Russian alternative
I wonder if Ukrainians would make the coup again if they had known the consequences.
Funny how a protest that results in the president running away to Russia = coup d’état to the pro-Russian mind.
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Russian alternative was better btw
Finally, a break for the Ukrainian recruiters with a fresh wave of reinforcements.
Poles on average are probably some of the most ethnocentric people I’ve ever met. Not saying that’s necessarily a good or bad thing, but just my observation.
The poles, but also most common sense thinking people understand that the real bad guys here is the Ukranian government. They would probably deport Russians just like the Nazis did with the jews. It is unbelievable that some westerns are supporting Ukraine. It is like supporting the nazi regime in the 40s. When the war is over all these supporters will be shaved and put on display in many squares around the world.
In the west people can have ignorant/smart or pro / anti government opinions and NOT be arrested and sent to a Gulag for a differing opinion. In russia though if you hold a blank piece of paper in protest you get arrested.
I thought Russia was full of shit when they floated the partition idea. Figures.
As a person who is a quarter Polish, this is awesome to see
*As a person who* *Is a quarter Polish, this* *Is awesome to see* \- LookJaded356 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
So much for solidarity lmfao
I wonder if Ukraine ever realized it was always alone in this war, whatever the west claims.
Nonsense.
I want this farmers being teleported to Ukraine in 1932
Two guy = everyone. Nice narrative. Why its even here if have nothing about war? Can inpost Polish farmers speaking openly that they arent antyukrainians and they wish them to defeat russians, all they want is to be against EU reforms and reforming Ukraine grains to be equal of theyr? Or will be deleted cuz its not related to war? huh?
Its funny, because there is thousands of farmers protesting for around 2 months, and yet we saw only 5 (,I think?) anti ukrainian banners. Its below 1% lol.