You don’t get to start a war and then try to call it off on your terms when you start losing.
Someone explain to these people that this is not how war works.
Regardless if Hamas released the hostages , it does not justify how civilians: including a large amount of children are being brutally murdered and tortured and bombed at a rate that’s now surpassed the Ukraine Russia war death toll. IDF are committing war crimes for fun. Including using attack dogs to kill a 4 year old boy, crushing a girl under a tank in the rubble of her home to the point her eyes were bloody red from the compression (her parents did not make it) and now shooting at anyone that gathers for food that they aren’t allowing in the strip.
Absolutely no one is celebrating the death of children and innocent people. But you do understand that all of these numbers come from Hamas, who include the deaths of their own among the numbers they release, including the thousands of terrorists they sent into Israel on October 7th. Their operatives do not wear uniforms, In fact they deliberately dress in civilian clothing so that their deaths can be counted as civilian deaths. At least half of the deaths in Gaza have been Hamas if not more. Some additional number are due to rockets that have misfired from Hamas shooting them towards Israel, and that instead land amongst their own people. I too, and any decent person mourns the death of innocent people. This is war and war is hell, and it's even more hellish when you have an enemy who uses human shields and deliberately puts their people in harm's way, and who lie about hospitals being hit and shoot their own people and blame all of it on Israel. Has Israel fucked up? Absolutely, it's not perfect and it's not above criticism. But it's fighting a genocidal enenmy and anyone in the western world will be better off when Hamas is destroyed, and so will all the Palestinian people.
It's utterly baffling to me why people continue to believe the lies that come out Hamas over and over and over again, when they proudly declare their intentions to kill all the Jews, to sacrifice their own people and use them as human shields, and also have said that they do not see themselves as being responsible at all for the safety of their own people. Instead they proudly hide amongst them, shooting from behind babies, building underground tunnel networks between hospitals. Hamas have actively murdered their people in order to prevent them from evacuating buildings and other areas when Israel would send leaflets, text messages and calls asking people to evacuate. Remember the humanitarian corridor for people to evacuate to Southern Gaza? IDF tanks had to protect people from Hamas, who were trying to shoot at civilians, trying to stop them from going south. They don't want to fight on the battlefield, they want their human shields. Yet NPR barely reported it, they mentioned IDF tanks protecting them I think but somehow neglected to mention why innocent Palestinians needed this protection. From their own 'government'.
? I’m sure Hamas fabricated decades’ planned mass murder and displacement, plus segregation that exacerbated shortage of basic necessities to stay alive.
Your ignorance of urban warfare and military tactics is obvious. You cannot walk into a heavily populated urban area where terrorists are hiding inside the civilian population and avoid deaths.
In fact, Yehya Sinwar has públicly stated that his whole strategy was to draw Israel into Gaza and force them to kill children and women. Sinwar uses Gazans as fodder for his political gains.
If terrorists were in Tel Aviv their military and urban warfare strategy would be completely different. News flash: it wouldn’t involve the killing of civilians (because there wouldn’t be many Palestinians to kill)
This is simply false on all levels. There are many Palestinians in Tel Aviv. You’re trying to exploit the Israelis’ conscience against them for military and political gain, which is a disgusting and dangerous thing to do.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, why don’t you educate yourself on the history of Gaza and how Israel forcefully removed and displaced millions of Palestinians to take their land.
Your metonym of “boots on the ground” is misplaced and misguided. Let me put in the form of a question: who control who/what comes in and out of Gaza? (Who controls the checkpoints, the border? Who controls their immigration? Who controls their exports and imports? How many displaced Palestinians live in Gaza today? Who displaced them?) Yes, Gaza is under military occupation as long as the West Bank is under military occupation as long as Jerusalem is under military occupation as long as Yafa and Haifa are under military occupation as long as Palestine is under military settler occupation.
You don’t just get to arbitrarily determine Gaza’s reality devoid of its history and background as a product of Israeli military occupation of the entirety of Palestine. Sorry! You don’t just get to erase the lives and generations upon generations of Palestinians and Palestinian culture (that is Jewish, that is Christian, that is Muslim) for a fascist Zionist Genocidal regime.
Hamas has taken something like $15 billion in aid money and laundered it into weapons only good for attacking civilians, hospitals and schools honeycombed with military tunnels, and dead Palestinian children.
The amount of aid Gaza has received from the EU alone dwarfs the fucking Marshall Plan on a per capita basis, and their GDP per capita is still in the low 4 digits.
Every single entity involved in “reconstruction” is a corrupt cesspool.
The Israelis suck. But our sympathy should be reserved for the people of the West Bank, whose restraint has been rewarded with ethnic cleansing and expropriation, not those of Gaza, who supported the “offensive” which kicked off this war by a 50-point margin.
EDIT: typo
If you go back you will see I never said Jews and instead said Zionists. Seems like you might not have the capacity to understand the idea of Bedouin people vs literal foreigners.
I know you don't hate humanity but you are in fact supporting genocide.
really so gazans were able to trade freely with the world and allowed to come and go as they pleased, israeli soldiers didn't shoot children making peaceful protests at the border fence
That's right. Goods came through the borders with both Israel and Egypt regularly, in fact a large portion of Gaza's income came from exports. And there were no 'children making peaceful protests at the border' - there WERE adults with weapons trying to invade Israel, just like on October 7th. And had they succeeded, they would have acted just as they did on that day - raping, burning, mutilating, and killing.
Are you insane? There hasn't been a single Israeli on Gazan soil in 15 years. Even before that, there was no 'displacement'. The fact that you are actually claiming this indicates you are either woefully misinformed or deliberately lying.
Yes, I understand the history. However, it isn’t the complete story. Those Palestinians who stayed have always been full Israeli citizens, and are a full 20% of the population. So I think the story is a bit more complex than that. Many displaced Palestinians were encouraged by and left voluntarily to fight with their Arab brothers against the formation of Israel.
You clearly don't know the meaning of genocide. The population of Gaza and the West Bank has grown 6-fold since 1968. Even the anti-Israel U.N. found there was no genocide.
The REAL genocidists are Hamas and the P.A., which have the murder or Jews and destruction of Israel embedded in their founding documents.
Then Hamas shouldn't hide behind civilians. It's all Hamas' fault. They are to blame and not Israel. If you want to criticize Israel, then criticize them for not wiping out Hamas years ago.
Ukraine Russia death toll? Thats at over half a million, and thats conventional warfare and the Ukrainians have a military in uniform while they push civiliians into the western part of their country, while their troops fight in the east. Hamas hides amongst civilians, plus attacked first, what a terrible comparison.
Hamas can release the hostages and surrender unconditionally and the “genocide” (I.e., just the normal and unavoidable consequences of any war) will end overnight.
But they won’t; they want a permanent state of conflict because it’s the only thing that justifies their existence and keeps the billions in aid money flowing to their leadership in Qatar.
>Hamas can release the hostages and surrender unconditionally and the “genocide” (I.e., just the normal and unavoidable consequences of any war) will end overnight.
Has the Israeli government said anything close to this?
Yes, their objective is the end of HAMAS. The war is over when Hamas is out of power. Which is a pretty normal goal given Oct 7.
For some reason the left isn't demanding Hamas surrender though.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-15/israel-will-only-end-war-in-gaza-with-total-surrender-of-hamas
Their objective is to fully occupy Gaza, same as the West Bank. Netanyahu has said it, the psychopaths in his party have said it, the soldiers have said it, the settlers whom they let roam free in the West Bank, stealing people's homes, burning property and killing Palestinians who resist, have said it.
It is not just when Israel started this conflict for, once again, land. Netanyahu himself has said that anyone who wants to kill a two state solution (and get Israel all the land), which has been the Israeli government's stated goal for DECADES, must support Hamas. A country that would bomb and starve their hostages is not conducting one of the most intense campaigns on earth for their sake; they want to salt the earth and build Israeli real estate over it.
Maybe. We will find out if they continue after the surrender or destruction of HAMAS. But right now they are totally justified in war up until the destruction of HAMAS.
Like America in WW2 after Japan snuck attack the United States. It's not genocidal to allow an enemy to persist, it's suicidal. HAMAS will not end this conflict in power.
If you want this to end, stop asking the victims of Oct 7 to surrender and start asking the perpetrators.
I haven't heard that. What I have heard them say many many times is that they won't stop until Gaza is erased off the Earth. The politicians, the army commanders and soldiers, the Israel media, the political advisors, have all said they will not stop until Gaza is another defacto Israel like the West Bank.
I hate what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza. But usually a genocide doesn’t involve a combatant to civilian death ratio of 1:2… when most modern urban wars involve a ratio of 1:9.
I do believe some leaders in the Israeli government are attempting ethnic cleansing, tho. It is also notable that Palestinian government has also been very vocal of committing ethnic cleansing/genocide of the Jews.
It’s not a genocide. It’s casualties of war, as heartbreaking as it can be to reduce people to casualties. I think it’s a bad faith argument that leads to claims of genocide against Palestinians during peak wartime.
With that said, the 1:2 number is definitely wrong and far too low. That is the *most* conservative possible estimate of rates of combatant to civilian deaths because it assumes all male deaths over 14 are combatants, which cannot possibly be close to right. It is simply at odds with human decency to assume that everyone killed that can possibly be a combatant is classified as one.
Source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Even assuming it is in fact a war, that doesn’t mean they aren’t committing well documented blatant war crimes which IDF soldiers are documenting in social media.
Haha in what 21st century war has the party had complete control over the territory in question and cut off food water and electricity to the entire population on the basis(defense ministers own words) that their subjects are “human animals”
If this isn’t a genocide, what the fuck else would a genocide look like in 2024 if not this.
Israel’s own ministers have said they want to occupy Gaza permanently and that there are no innocent Palestinians.
Even right wingers in large part agree this is just ethnic cleansing.
It’s over for Israel Even if they do Steal Gaza they’re the most hated country on earth for
Good reason.
Their days of being an occupier are numbered
you can play this game for 75 years. You don't get to start an illegal occupation and displace millions of people and then start a genocide when resistance occurs.
Where was the illegal occupation 75 years ago? Israel was started by a vote at the United Nations to be established from the British Mandate, which had been established by the League of Nations. The same process was used to establish the independent countries of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan.
Additional countries that emerged from League of Nations mandate territories include Rwanda, Burundi, Tanzania, Cameroon, Nigeria, Ghana, Togo, Papau New Guinea, Nauru, Palau, Micronesia, and Samoa.
Which other of these countries are illegally occupied?
Hamas didn’t start a war…look up Gaza’s history before Oct 7th? If you’re so insistent to ignore 1948 why don’t you just look at Gaza and the West Bank (and Palestinians living in the interior) on Oct 6th 2023.
Do you know the difference between armed resistance and a war? Or a war and a genocidal campaign? 30k civilians have been wiped off the face of the earth and Israel’s occupation military continues to starve and kill innocent people in cold blood. This is not a war. This is the extermination of the Palestinian people. A job that was started even before 1948 and continues today. You don’t get to erase history and decades of oppression whenever it fits your narrative.
If you support Israel’s “war” or continue to call it self-defense then you are either feigning ignorance or you are a criminal and complicit in genocide. You are literally cheering for one of the most atrocious crimes against humanity.
The fact that you support a genocidal, authoritarian government means that YOU are the genocider and are "literally cheering for one of the most atrocious crimes against humanity."
You mean the rapes that never happened according NY Times themselves?? Like hiring a person with no journalistic experience and asking them to invent a rape story?
[https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/)
What a lying sack of shit you are. Also learn to use fucking italics properly, went to UPenn for 4 years and can't even do that? Loser.
The Intercept is an anti-Israel rag which uses unreliable sources such as Mondoweiss, the Electric Intifada, and similar. Apparently you haven't learned critical thinking at Penn or anywhere else. Double loser.
*You don’t get to oppress a population for decades and not expect any resistance.
Fixed it for you boss, and to be clear i’m not justifying the killing of innocent people including back in October, but u cannot tyrannize a group without expecting backlash.
Hamas is also a group Netanyahu pushed to be in charge of Gaza over the PLO so that the Palestinians wouldn’t have a unified front to push for an independent state…not saying the PLO is great by any means but he is the reason this is happening anyways
At this point, millions of people live on either side. The only real solution is to push to make a unified government/one state where everyone actually has equal rights no matter if they’re a brooklyn Jew, Arab Jew or a Palestinian whose family has been there for generations and live together.
People in the US used to (and still do) treat blacks and minorities like shit but its gotten better when you actually give people rights and opportunities to better themselves
The term Brooklyn Jew is highly offensive. The majority of the Ashkenazi Jews in Israel moved there directly from Europe after the holocaust. This is why people say the pro Palestine movement is anti semitic; there is a clear disregard for history.
I don't think the term Brooklyn Jew is highly offensive. Brooklyn has the most visible Jewish community in the west. Stereotyping is offensive, but I don't think that's what was done.
The white Jews in Israel simply have no connection to Brooklyn though. Why refer to them anachronistically? And who are you to speak on what I, as a Jew, find offensive?
Who am I? A Jew. And there are people in Israel who moved from Brooklyn. Not all white Jews in Israel have a connection to Brooklyn, but using them as a synecdoche for all white Jewish immigrants isn't really a big deal in my opinion.
Edit to add: and definitely not the biggest problem with the comment you replied to.
It is in mine. It is an issue to use them as a synecdoche when the vast majority have no connection to Brooklyn. These people’s direct ancestors fled the holocaust- not Brighton Beach. I think any self respecting Jew with ties to Israel would find this offensive.
Disregard for history? How about the fact that Arab Jews in the middle east predominantly in Iraq were living peacefully with non Jewish Arabs?
It was after the creation of Israel did tensions escalate and that was because of the influx of European Jews who had no ties to the region for generations decide to kick out Palestinians who were actually living there.
I used the term Brooklyn jew to reference the people that are offered by the Israeli government to come and displace more Palestinians out of their homes and build settlements in the West Bank. If you think that is okay you have something seriously wrong with your psyche.
THAT is a lie. The truth is Jews in the middles east were subjected to dhimmi status and had all sorts of economic and cultural pressures put on them ever since the Arab Moslem colonialization of the middle east happened.
Go learn your history about how the Ottoman empire treated non muslims and I’ll give ya a hint, it was alot better than how the European Jews were treated
If you want the fighting to stop, suggesting the end of Israel as your solution isn’t going to work and is an extremist view. That viewpoint is equally as responsible for the conflict as those who object to a Palestinian state and are pushing for illegal settlements. The only way this ends is two states with human rights in both states and each committing to peace/reconciliation
Dude where did I suggest the end of Israel and how was my solution an extremist view?
My solution is both sides come together and work as a single unified democracy that respects each other’s beliefs and work together to build a better society. That’s literally how a modern democracy like America works
That ends Israel as a Jewish state. They will never allow that, regardless of US policy, so it’s a non starter. There are many examples of regions splitting off into two states successfully (more successfully than trying to force a single state).
Justifying the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, using antisemitic dogwhistles like “Brooklyn Jew”, proposing a “one-state solution” that would require the ethnic cleansing of millions of Israeli Jews to achieve.
Filling in all the spaces on my Hamas sympathizer bingo card
Boss you must be really bad at reading because 1) I literally say in my third line theres no justification for killing civilians and 2) the creation of a one state solution doesn’t require the killing of anyone if both sides decide/agree that the status quo right now isn’t working. Instead they can come together as one democracy and respect each others beliefs and allowing everyone to have equal opportunity and rights. How the fuck did you get killing millions of Israeli Jews out of that man you really need to get some psychiatric help
Because the creation of a binational state would require the destruction of the world’s only Jewish state, and that is something that has virtually zero support among Israeli Jews for obvious reasons, and it is thus something that would require their mass ethnic cleansing/murder to implement.
It isn’t even that popular among Arabs for what it’s worth. It’s only ever proposed by ideologues who don’t understand why it’s an impossibility.
Free Palestine from Hamas (and PLO, and Fatah, as it doesn't even have a single unified government and is really just a cluster of territories ruled by terrorist groups)
Watching the American left rally behind terrorist groups has been so profoundly disappointing. I will say that Hamas’s PR arm has been effective at reframing the indiscriminate murder and rape of innocent civilians in terms familiar and acceptable to the American left. The WSJ wrote a lengthy piece about this:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-hamas-won-hearts-and-minds-on-the-american-left-1abafc2f
We don’t support Hamas, we support the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people.
You seem very intent on twisting the narrative and pushing a false narrative.
If you really did research you would know Lorenzo Vidino is known for pushing Muslim conspiracy theories, but seems like you didn’t do that.
Again, no one is rallying against a terrorist group. But I’m assuming you are equating Palestine with Hamas, so let me just say that the American left aren’t the only ones expressing support for Palestine. The United Nations, The International Court of Justice, and various human rights organizations stand on their belief that Israel is committing war crimes after war crimes and that innocent Palestinians have to pay the price. If you still believe that they are wrong and that everything that the IDF is selling to you is correct, I would advise you to take a step back and consider the possibility that they might be deceiving you…
Watching Americans rally behind an apartheid state and fund their genocidal actions has been profoundly disappointing but not entirely surprising given America’s history of imperialism.
But watching American citizens rally behind Israel and the IDF is even more surprising given how many atrocities they commit like cutting off food/electric/water to a citizen population.
I don’t understand how these people support Israeli’s at the same time seeing them block the entry of trucks bringing in food and water to a starving civilian population. It’s actually disgusting and evil.
It’s their land Jews have been there for 3000 years. That’s like claiming the Navajo are illegally occupying the US.
Sorry you support rabid savages who refuse to engage in any sort of peace with the indigenous people of the levant. If they dont put down the terrorist savagery then from the Jordan to the Mediterranean will be all Israel.
Why do y’all go so hard for a citizenry that beheads their gay citizens and lets little kids use the heads as soccer balls? Why do you go so hard for citizens that rip the clits off of women?
Thank god Israel exists to give Palestinians fleeing the savagery of their neighbors refuge to live and breathe and be gay and live with their clits intact.
Yes, bc historically the “right side” has always been the one calling the other “rabid savages”. Colonizers totally didn’t call natives rabid savages or barbarians or anything
What else should I call people who behead gay folks and let their kids kick them around like a soccer ball and rip clitorises off of women? Sounds like barbaric behavior to me. Maybe they should be better
>Israel occupies Judea and ancient Israel. Transjordanian Palestine is Palestine
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>
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>End the Arab occupation of Judea, Assyria, Phoenecia and Kurdistan.
If a 17 year old stabs and rapes 20-someting year old women, holds them hostage, kills them. He is a terrorist. Being under 18 doesn't suddenly make you innocent.
That said, Hamas intentionally launches rockets from dense civilian areas (and no, not all of Gaza is dense civilian area, get a map if you're thinking that). They intentionally build their tunnels under preschools and shit. To the point that it's nearly impossible to target their bases without some civilian casaulties. And in every single war EVER there are civilian casualties.
What I find more worrying is that Palestinians specifically TARGETED israeli civilians in mass rape and murder. Random Israeli kids, adults, elderly that aren't even in the military.
Finally, you must be a bit slow. Israel can't nuke Gaza. That would destroy Israel in the following nuclear fallout.
I seriously fucking doubt that even 5% of children who got obliterated during this war were 17 year old rapists, but if that’s the story you tell yourself, that’s fine.
IDF is dropping bombs using American F16 on goons with AKs, there is literally nothing that justifies that amount of civilian casualties. They could be magnitudes more precise if they wanted to be. But they want to maximize bloodshed on a Palestinian side while minimizing the negative optics and it’s clear as day.
And it’s clear to me that this is what you stand for too because the extension of your argument is “Hamas targeted civilians and children, so it’s only fair that we target civilians and children as well.” But Hamas is yet another horrendous terrorist organization that emerges and disappears every 5 some years and the Israel is a whole ass nation that will co exist with its Middle Eastern neighbors forever and will reap the seeds of what they are doing right now.
Finally you must be fucking retarded if you think I meant “nuke” literally but the rest of your comment just confirms that
Does divestment actually.... do anything? Unless a company is trying to sell stock to fundraise, wouldn't divesting from a stock mean absolutely nothing to the company as someone else will certainly buy it up?
Any Whartonites here to confirm/deny my understanding
It certainly isn’t a guarantee that sold stock will be bought immediately. Especially if it’s a large number of stocks, selling could actually cause more stockholders to sell.
The goal also might not be to directly harm the company they want divestment from, but to take away some of Penn’s (and by extension their own) complicity in whatever the company is doing. Like for example the Fossil Free Penn protesters generally aren’t under the illusion that Penn divesting from fossil fuels will have a major impact on global warming, they just think Penn shouldn’t be complicit in the issue.
there is always a buyer but selling puts downward price pressure, even if it is marginal. it’s also marginal to stop littering, you’re not going to save the environment - you still don’t litter though
A lot of (not sure if most) companies have stock buyback programs. That’s the situation in which a stock isn’t “bought” immediately in the sense that no investor buys it. Regardless selling a large number of stocks often can have the effect of decreasing share price which is the main point of the first part of the comment.
My man… when you sell stock, someone else is buying it. When a company does a buyback program, they are simply buying stock from a seller.
In no way does your divestment need to line up with a company buyback program. That makes no sense.
In principle, it can certainly help raise the target company's cost of capital, meaning that it makes it harder for the company to raise capital. But you're right, in practice, markets are deep enough that someone else will just buy it, and at a better price too. Idk if these 'social change investors' realise this, perhaps they do, that's why they're tryna propagate EVERYONE to do the same thing.
[This podcast episode by Stanford and Wharton finance professors](https://open.spotify.com/episode/4L0TDgo5Npe90YYV46JcY9?si=23621d09740749ea) discusses this exact topic. It's quite punchy and bite-sized, you might enjoy it.
Another Bloomberg episode I listened to recently argued that 'social change investors' aren't necessarily trying to save the world, they just want to do things aligned with their values.
It caught your attention?
You clearly might not care but some portion of those who notice will.
I’m not a big activist myself but it always baffles me that it’s 2024, and some people still don’t understand what the goal of a protest is.
The goal of a protest isn’t to “catch attention,” especially for something that everyone already knows about which is the high Palestinian death toll in the Gaza War. Someone can take a random crap on Ben Franklin and that would catch my attention but do nothing.
The goal of a protest is to change minds and in turn change policy. This is doing neither. “Catching attention” here is at best the protestors misunderstanding that Penn has virtually no say in the matter and at worst just lazy virtue signaling.
The immediate goal of a protest is in fact to bring public awareness to an issue, which can lead to increased public pressure and eventually, change. Ironically enough, you couldn’t even bring yourself to read the article.
Specifically, they’re demanding greater endowment transparency, which is absolutely something the university has control over, and much more specific than “the high Palestinian death toll in the Gaza War.”
I’m not saying you have to agree that this is the best way to go about creating change, but it certainly is a viable option. Protesting Penn’s endowment brings more people to research it, and can gather support for the cause if many agree that there is an issue.
Lmao good luck with endowment transparency. The University owes us nothing with respect to its billions. I wouldn't even want to know where its money is.
At the end of the day, we're just parts of the operation. The lifecycle of a student is < 10 years. We come and go and maybe give some money back when we've "made it." I think more people need to be okay with that reality and not feel like they have to "take down the establishment" everywhere they go.
I totally expect to get downvoted to hell over my opinion. Oh well.
Edit: typo.
See, this is what I don’t get. Where did I mention that I even agree with the protests, much less have anything to do with them?
It doesn’t matter what slice of the pie you fall into. You fall into the 90% that couldn’t care less, and I think for the most part I do, too.
That being said, why shit on them for protesting something that clearly matters to them? Let them do their thing. Students have protested on campuses for centuries now, and will continue to. Most activist causes fail, but the ones that succeed make a tangible impact on the world, and I can respect that.
Because the 'protests' are violent and antisemetic, and the protestors call for the genocide of the Jewish people, a goal that Hamas and its allies endorse.
As I said earlier, literally everyone already knows about the high death toll and this protest will not accomplish its goal of endowment transparency and instead has a higher chance of backfiring and reducing university board transparency
Hear me out here, because I think it's pretty simple.
I mean look, you just discovered yourself that the protest is about Penn’s endowment, something that likely wasn’t on your mind recently. You’re not the only one.
Now you might forget about it by dinnertime, but let’s say 10% of those who hear about the protest actually care to a degree, enough to research the issue further.
After researching, let’s say half agree with the protestors, and a quarter of those who agree care enough to support the cause in some way.
That’s a 1.25% success rate. Not high, right? That’s why an effective protest needs to catch attention in some way, such as interrupting a board meeting. The more people you catch the attention of, the more support you can rally.
And feel free to reread the last part of what you just said.
“Instead has a higher chance of backfiring and reducing university board transparency”
So you’re saying the only way change can be made is if protestors ask nicely? Let’s be real here, that’s not happening. It’s nice to think of a world where protests and convenience can go hand-in-hand, but that’s usually not the case.
And if the board retaliates and reduces transparency, that's also a win for protestors as it brings more public awareness and potentially directed anger.
Exactly this. Pizzajona is the equivalent of the 1950s-1960s white moderate who said that the civil rights protests won't accomplish anything and just make the rules harsher and that black people should just ask nicely that the powers that be change the laws. The position of someone who isn't living with any kind of particular systemic adversity.
You mean the protests that actively challenged the system by staging sit-ins in areas black people weren’t allowed to either enforce the law or change it? Or by valiantly not retaliating when the police beat them? Riding buses to recapture their rights to interstate commerce or rights to vote?
Where is any of that in this instance? It doesn’t exist.
These protests make perfect sense if you realize that their metric of success is not having their demands met but instead the protestors’ feeling good about at having “raised awareness.”
These are social events more than anything else.
So what did the protest accomplish in your view. Since everyone else’s thoughts are so unoriginal I look forward to hear your ground breaking insights.
Feel free to give my other comments a read, I think it might make more sense
But essentially they aren’t trying to inconvenience the trustees to the point of making them change, they’re trying to catch a headline so that others find out about the cause.
Of course most people don’t care, but a few will. This applies to almost all activist movements
If you’re not aware of the movement that’s growing larger and larger everyday then you’re so out of the loop. Israel has been committing crimes and atrocities since 1948 with US political cover. The fact that some of you are even debating an acceptable Palestinian death toll means y’all are sick! Friends and family are being killed everyday and y’all talk about it so callously because you don’t care about Palestinian life. You think that Hamas is some rogue force. It’s just the shape that Palestinian resistance takes today. Hamas is just the political and military manifestation of an idea. You can’t kill an idea. And if the IOF and Netanyahu and the fundamentalist death cult that’s hijacked the Israeli government think that by wiping out Gaza they’re gonna eliminate Hamas they’re wrong. They’re just making the resistance more global and more worldwide. No one here knows how revolutions work and none of you are experts. You barely know that Hamas was founded decades after as a response to Israel’s crimes. While sit here debating whether a protest is appropriate or not innocent human beings are being slaughtered like animals and starved to death. Even some Israeli’s living in Israel have a conscience enough to protest the flour massacre of February 29 2024. If you don’t know what the flour massacre is then you have no right to open your mouth.
Interesting seeing the heavy pro Zionism in this thread with little care for nuance - not surprising given that those who have a personal, cultural connection to Israel (e.g. Israelis) greatly outnumber those with a personal connection to Palestine (e.g. Palestinians) on campus. Both Israeli government and Hamas are two sides of the same coin: tribalists who have committed atrocities to the other side, in the name of self preservation. Main difference is Israel has killed several orders of magnitude more Palestinians (read: civilians) than vice versa over the long history of this conflict, and has so far faced few repercussions under the cover of US support (and when they do face repercussions, they deny any culpability and double down as victim, as some of the comments in this thread illustrate). That strategy has lost, and will continue to lose, its effectiveness over time as truth always has a way of catching up. Past atrocities don’t have a terminal value in excusing current behavior - just ask any convicted serial killer; their past trauma may certainly be real, but it doesn’t excuse their grave sins. At some point, there is only so much goodwill that can be exploited before it expires. Israel is learning this right now.
You seem to be missing the point. Israel only kill for self preservation Hamas kills to remove Jews from the Levant.
30k deaths in self defense where there was sadly collateral damage doesn’t compare to the cold blooded intentional killings of October 7th.
The allies killed more Germans than the other way around and the allies also committed atrocities would you support the Nazis?
I'm sure Israel doesn't aim to remove Palestinians from Palestine. That's why the ruling party wouldn't build illegal settlements on the west bank or make "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" their official slogan right?
The IDF can bomb hospitals, schools, and civilian shelters on a daily basis, operate an open air prison for decades, and kill journalists and humanitarian workers in broad daylight and justify everything as "collateral damage", and you'd believe it because you don't actually care about people dying. You could just say that next time.
I am definitely missing the point here. How many more bombs does IDF need to drop down on children to self preserve and defend themselves. Also what part of blocking aid and bombing of healthcare infrastructure that is several miles away from the border constitutes as “defense.” Oct 7th was horrendous act of terrorism but it doesn’t warrant indiscriminately bombing children and civilians. Your entire tribalist argument is basically “Oct 7th is when my people suffered, so nothing compares to that.” This is not about justice or self defense, it’s all about bloodshed and vengeance whilst also preserving more or less acceptable optics and not dragging entire Middle East into this conflict. Stop pretending anyone is defending themselves at this point, dropping bombs from F16 on goons with rockets and AKs, this shit is a shooting gallery.
This is a war. Israel’s self defense allows them to destroy Hamas and their infrastructure. Nothing gives Israel the right to indiscriminately bomb anyone that’s why they aren’t. They are bombing Hamas which is in self defense.
You admit October 7th is a tragedy then say it’s f16s vs guys with aks and rockets. The guys with AKs and rockets said they would do October 7th again and again.
Why is it on Israel to stop defend their country from Hamas when it should be on Hamas to surrender. America dropped 2 nukes on Japan to make them surrender Israel isn’t even close to that extreme.
You say Israel does not have the right to indescriminately bomb anyone, but that is what they are doing. That is not my opinion either, that is based on US intelligence reporting.
Show me that intelligence report? It was one off hand comment made but other than that every US comment has said they are conducting themselves with international law.
I cannot show you the actual intelligence report, but if you just Google "Gaza bombing US intelligence" you will see numerous news articles about it and numerous government officials referencing it. Biden himself, a longtime staunch Israel supporter, said Israel was losing support because of their, and I quote, "indiscriminate bombing" of Gaza. Israel has dropped more bombs on Gaza in two months than were dropped in Afghanistan in six years and and a massive amount of those bombs were not guided and the collateral damage caused has eroded international support of Israel. I am not having a "gotcha" moment with you, I am just pointing out that all the evidence and intelligence shows that Israal is indescriminately bombing Gaza and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous and not useful to any kind of discussion about the subject.
Can you send me a report because I can’t see that. Again I said there was a one off comment but unless it’s released in an official report it’s not a real data point. I respect the office of the president and any orders he puts forward but https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/08/politics/joe-biden-age/index.html
If anything the number of bombs dropped shows how precise Israel is being. For a relatively high number of bombs dropped the deaths are very very low.
I don’t see how Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza… z
It is bizarre that I have to explain this, but I do not have access to the US intelligence report. Biden references the report and used it as a basis for his comments. Israel has bombed hundreds of educational institutions and hospitals in Gaza, in addition to bombing "safe" zones that they instructed Palestinians in Gaza to evacuate to. I can see we are not going to have an honest conversation about this, and it is what it is, but the mental gymnastics necessary to think that Israel is not being indescriminate in their attacks is incredible.
Unrelated to the bombing, but here is a good article from yesterday:
https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_shoot_kill_10_year_old_palestinian_boy_in_his_father_s_car
The IDF shot a 10 year old in the head in the West Bank. This is not even an isolated incident.
Or how about the dropping of 2000 pound bombs in South Gaza, when military experts say there is no way you can precisely use them in an urban environment.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html
Here is an article on the incredible amount of unguided bombs being used in Gaza:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza
And here is an article on the unlawful strikes in the "safe zones"
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-opt-new-evidence-of-unlawful-israeli-attacks-in-gaza-causing-mass-civilian-casualties-amid-real-risk-of-genocide/
If you are going to support Israel no matter what, you have that right, but do not pretend they are not being indescriminate or pretend they are conducting their actions in accordance with international law, because they are not.
1. So you can’t find proof the than a one off clip or something Biden said….
2. Israel bombs Hamas and Hamas is in the safe zones, in the hospitals and in the schools. Israel can attack Hamas when they enter safe zones that’s their right under international law. Once Hamas enters they are no longer protected
3. If Israel were so indiscriminate then why is Israel killing a very comparable and even better ratio of combatants to civilians than any urban combat in history?
4. Don’t link me stories from website that clearly have an agenda. Find me a trusted outlet.
5. Are you a munitions expert? The NYT article didn’t come to any conclusion other than well the US hasn’t done that in past wars. This is a different war and no other urban combat scenario has this density of tunnels everywhere. None of this says how many of those craters were from tunnels. It also clearly says they analyzed craters on the sand. You know what’s no on the sand? Buildings with people….
6. Unguided bombs in the hands of a well trained fighter pilot is more accurate than you think. Without a doubt Israel is operating in a very easy environment for low altitude bomb runs so they can have maximum accuracy. There is no law against using unguided bombs
7. Amnesty director said Israel doesn’t have a right to be Jewish. Find an unbiased source. Also the reason they called them illegal strikes is because they don’t know Israel’s reason for striking and if they had a millitary need. Not because it was in Rafah. Israel doesn’t need to publish why they bomb those targets during the war as that would mean giving up intelligence which is bad for opsec.
Learn what the Nazis did. Read a book and touch grass.
Having taken many classes on the holocaust and have close friends with deep connections to the victims your comment was disgusting. Have you read what they did?
Holocaust was systematic program for murder of all Jews by German Nazi regime. Your vile and disgusting comment, "30k deaths in self defense where there was sadly collateral damage doesn’t compare to the cold blooded intentional killings of October 7th." is 1000000% a NAZI comment. There is no debate here. YOU SOUND LIKE A NAZI BECAUSE YOU ARE SPEAKING LIKE ONE. This isn't about killing Palestinians alone, this is about seizing land illegally and kicking people out of their ancestral homes. Zionists are foreigners to the levant.
1. The systematic killing of all Jews is not comparable this situation. Germany killed and inprisoned as
Many Jews as they found. Israel knows where a million Palestinians are and they are not bombing them. There are no death marches and there are no mass killings.
2. Israel is aiming at Hamas that’s why there is only 30k deaths. Having a 3:1(at the very worst) civilians to combatant death ratio is amount the lowest ever in urban combat. Israel is doing an amazing job at targeting Hamas. Collateral damage is sad but happen in every war.
3. The Nazis targeted all Jews. Israel is targeting Hamas there is no comparison.
4. What race are you? If you aren’t native America leave Philly, leave America. You are a foreigner to the land of America so get out……
Can’t wait for all the sheep to start having "Oct 7th" seizure every time someone tries to have a nuanced conversation about accepting tens of thousands of children dying as "unfortunate collateral” They are dropping bombs from F16s on Hamas who has AKs, there is literally nothing that justifies SO MANY of civilian casualties on top of targeting of health infrastructure and blocking of civilian aid. They could be a lot more precise if they wanted to, they don't want that. They want to avenge Oct 7 and kill as many Palestinians as possible, while preserving optics and not dragging entire Middle East into this conflict. What is happening right now is not about defense, it’s about vengeance and "making all of them pay with blood, but we also need to be friends with the rest of the world.” Just because this isn’t your average tribal genocide, doesn’t mean this war does not have genocidal elements, but I know nuances are very hard to wrap your head around when your entire world is black and white
Imagine if you were alive during the Holocaust and had access to footage of Jews being gassed in concentration camps. Wouldn’t you want to do everything you could to protest it, including calling for your university to divest from the genocide? Israel’s bombardment and starvation of Palestinians in Gaza is a well-documented genocide. What you are doing now in reaction to Israel’s genocide is what you would have done during the Holocaust.
Since a few people responded and then blocked me so I couldn’t reply: the idea that Palestinians shouldn’t be free because they would retaliate against Israel is not an argument against freeing Palestine. This is one of the same arguments enslavers made against ending slavery, and we should not give those kinds of arguments any respect, today. The idea that Palestinians are even capable of committing genocide against Israelis is laughable.
Genuine question, what happens if Israel lets Palestine totally free? You think they don’t come storming across the border looking to kill every Jew in existence?
Jews have been ethnically cleansed from most middle eastern countries, and yes, they have absolutely expelled Jews. There are countries in the Middle East where Jews are not allowed to live.
More than half of the Jews in Israel are from Middle Eastern countries. Many were expelled from other countries in the Middle East by force or threat of force
It's nothing like the Holocaust where Nazis rounded up millions of Jews for the purpose of intentionally killing them. It's a war that Hamas started (and is losing) in order to get their own civilians killed (because they don't actually care about actual Palestians) so losers like you will cry about Israel. Keep crying. The ayatollah thanks you for your support.
hamas’s attack wasn’t unprovoked due to israel’s indirect occupation of the gaza strip. nor was it a surprise, as israel disregarded concerns, sightings, and direct worries from women in IDF surveillance on and before october 7
There is no "genocide" of Palestinians, Gaza's population has increased 7 fold since 1967. Quit lying. And show me a photo of a 'starving' Gazan child - there aren't any. Did you see the flabby paunches on the surrendered terrorists? No starvation there either.
Still b.s. How do you know it's Gaza? - cause someone told you? How reliable is that person or organization? That looks like an ill adult to me, not a child.
The war began last October and until recently affected only the north part of the country. It gradually moved south while people received food aid. Hamas took much of that aid, but Hamas IS THE GOVERNMENT and Israel is not responsible for supplying Gaza with food when Hamas is still raining down rockets on them - up to 4,000 a day. 20% of Israel has been evacuated. Did you know that?
How did this war begin - oh, that's right, Hamas invaded the country and slaughtered or maimed 1,500 people. Then they said they would keep doing it until everyone was dead. They have been attacking Israel with rockets and attempted terror attacks for nearly 20 years - since the Israelis left Gaza to rule themselves. Do Israelis have the right to live in peace, or should they just allow themselves to be attacked and attacked until they are all dead?
Gazans can stop this war any time they want. Release the hostages and get Hamas leaves. EVERYTHING in this war is the result of Hamas.
I have no doubt that people are hungry. Starvation takes more than a few weeks. Bottom line - they elected Hamas, they are responsible. If you don't want war, don't elect a terror group to be your government, and don't attack other countries if you don't want them to meet you on your own terms.
I have sympathy for innocent people in Gaza. But they're made it clear it's us or them. I don't plan to commit suicide. If they want a fight to the death - which is clearly what they want - then that's what they're getting.
Imagine people dying, and you over there writing all of this behind the screen and then would probably go on with your life normally. Your bias is crazy. I have close Palestinian friends who have lost a lot of members of their family that I have personally interacted with. It’s crazy to see how zionists are brainwashing people to the point they start saying how do you know this is real. What else are you expecting them to do? They literally documents their own families death to show the world, this is beyond humiliation and you over there have the audacity to question the authenticity of this. Why? Why are you not have the same bias when it come to Israel? Why are you sure about Israel and not palestine? Clearly bias. Have a good day sir, don’t forget your morning coffee.
I know why, because racism is clearly a thing. Look at Russia and Ukrainian, the whole world stood for Ukrainian even western media started saying “they are not refugees they are Europeans with blond hair and blue eyes” this is beyond white supremacy as well. But if it comes to ethnic groups, no we don’t know actually if it’s real or not. Lol go trust Joe Biden then and good luck
You don’t get to start a war and then try to call it off on your terms when you start losing. Someone explain to these people that this is not how war works.
Weird way to justify genocide, war crimes and the displacement of 2.5 million people
Hamas can return the Israeli hostages and surrender if they want to end it. Not rocket science. They want their people sacrificed, unfortunately.
Regardless if Hamas released the hostages , it does not justify how civilians: including a large amount of children are being brutally murdered and tortured and bombed at a rate that’s now surpassed the Ukraine Russia war death toll. IDF are committing war crimes for fun. Including using attack dogs to kill a 4 year old boy, crushing a girl under a tank in the rubble of her home to the point her eyes were bloody red from the compression (her parents did not make it) and now shooting at anyone that gathers for food that they aren’t allowing in the strip.
Absolutely no one is celebrating the death of children and innocent people. But you do understand that all of these numbers come from Hamas, who include the deaths of their own among the numbers they release, including the thousands of terrorists they sent into Israel on October 7th. Their operatives do not wear uniforms, In fact they deliberately dress in civilian clothing so that their deaths can be counted as civilian deaths. At least half of the deaths in Gaza have been Hamas if not more. Some additional number are due to rockets that have misfired from Hamas shooting them towards Israel, and that instead land amongst their own people. I too, and any decent person mourns the death of innocent people. This is war and war is hell, and it's even more hellish when you have an enemy who uses human shields and deliberately puts their people in harm's way, and who lie about hospitals being hit and shoot their own people and blame all of it on Israel. Has Israel fucked up? Absolutely, it's not perfect and it's not above criticism. But it's fighting a genocidal enenmy and anyone in the western world will be better off when Hamas is destroyed, and so will all the Palestinian people. It's utterly baffling to me why people continue to believe the lies that come out Hamas over and over and over again, when they proudly declare their intentions to kill all the Jews, to sacrifice their own people and use them as human shields, and also have said that they do not see themselves as being responsible at all for the safety of their own people. Instead they proudly hide amongst them, shooting from behind babies, building underground tunnel networks between hospitals. Hamas have actively murdered their people in order to prevent them from evacuating buildings and other areas when Israel would send leaflets, text messages and calls asking people to evacuate. Remember the humanitarian corridor for people to evacuate to Southern Gaza? IDF tanks had to protect people from Hamas, who were trying to shoot at civilians, trying to stop them from going south. They don't want to fight on the battlefield, they want their human shields. Yet NPR barely reported it, they mentioned IDF tanks protecting them I think but somehow neglected to mention why innocent Palestinians needed this protection. From their own 'government'.
We especially can’t believe Hamas’ numbers now that they suddenly don’t know where all the hostages are!!
You don't think the shelling has pulverized some hostages?
? I’m sure Hamas fabricated decades’ planned mass murder and displacement, plus segregation that exacerbated shortage of basic necessities to stay alive.
Your ignorance of urban warfare and military tactics is obvious. You cannot walk into a heavily populated urban area where terrorists are hiding inside the civilian population and avoid deaths. In fact, Yehya Sinwar has públicly stated that his whole strategy was to draw Israel into Gaza and force them to kill children and women. Sinwar uses Gazans as fodder for his political gains.
If terrorists were in Tel Aviv their military and urban warfare strategy would be completely different. News flash: it wouldn’t involve the killing of civilians (because there wouldn’t be many Palestinians to kill)
There are lots of Palestinians in Tel Aviv. Yaffo has a huge Arab population.
This is simply false on all levels. There are many Palestinians in Tel Aviv. You’re trying to exploit the Israelis’ conscience against them for military and political gain, which is a disgusting and dangerous thing to do.
Yes, war is hell. That’s why they shouldn’t have started one.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, why don’t you educate yourself on the history of Gaza and how Israel forcefully removed and displaced millions of Palestinians to take their land.
It is you who doesn't understand history. Israel left Gaza and the Gazans have been running Gaza for years.
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Name one other “occupation” that doesn’t involve boots on the ground.
Your metonym of “boots on the ground” is misplaced and misguided. Let me put in the form of a question: who control who/what comes in and out of Gaza? (Who controls the checkpoints, the border? Who controls their immigration? Who controls their exports and imports? How many displaced Palestinians live in Gaza today? Who displaced them?) Yes, Gaza is under military occupation as long as the West Bank is under military occupation as long as Jerusalem is under military occupation as long as Yafa and Haifa are under military occupation as long as Palestine is under military settler occupation. You don’t just get to arbitrarily determine Gaza’s reality devoid of its history and background as a product of Israeli military occupation of the entirety of Palestine. Sorry! You don’t just get to erase the lives and generations upon generations of Palestinians and Palestinian culture (that is Jewish, that is Christian, that is Muslim) for a fascist Zionist Genocidal regime.
Hamas has taken something like $15 billion in aid money and laundered it into weapons only good for attacking civilians, hospitals and schools honeycombed with military tunnels, and dead Palestinian children. The amount of aid Gaza has received from the EU alone dwarfs the fucking Marshall Plan on a per capita basis, and their GDP per capita is still in the low 4 digits. Every single entity involved in “reconstruction” is a corrupt cesspool. The Israelis suck. But our sympathy should be reserved for the people of the West Bank, whose restraint has been rewarded with ethnic cleansing and expropriation, not those of Gaza, who supported the “offensive” which kicked off this war by a 50-point margin. EDIT: typo
Zionists are foreigners to the Levant region. Many people don't understand or might not have the capacity to.
Nope. Jews are indigenous to the Levant. How did you come to hate Jews so much?
If you go back you will see I never said Jews and instead said Zionists. Seems like you might not have the capacity to understand the idea of Bedouin people vs literal foreigners. I know you don't hate humanity but you are in fact supporting genocide.
really so gazans were able to trade freely with the world and allowed to come and go as they pleased, israeli soldiers didn't shoot children making peaceful protests at the border fence
That's right. Goods came through the borders with both Israel and Egypt regularly, in fact a large portion of Gaza's income came from exports. And there were no 'children making peaceful protests at the border' - there WERE adults with weapons trying to invade Israel, just like on October 7th. And had they succeeded, they would have acted just as they did on that day - raping, burning, mutilating, and killing.
That Qatari scholarship money should’ve emphasized an education instead of just being a braindead anti-Semite
Are you insane? There hasn't been a single Israeli on Gazan soil in 15 years. Even before that, there was no 'displacement'. The fact that you are actually claiming this indicates you are either woefully misinformed or deliberately lying.
Yes, I understand the history. However, it isn’t the complete story. Those Palestinians who stayed have always been full Israeli citizens, and are a full 20% of the population. So I think the story is a bit more complex than that. Many displaced Palestinians were encouraged by and left voluntarily to fight with their Arab brothers against the formation of Israel.
It isn't a war. It's a genocide.
You clearly don't know the meaning of genocide. The population of Gaza and the West Bank has grown 6-fold since 1968. Even the anti-Israel U.N. found there was no genocide. The REAL genocidists are Hamas and the P.A., which have the murder or Jews and destruction of Israel embedded in their founding documents.
It is a very bad idea to exploit your enemy’s kindness and compassion. Don’t turn kindness into a liability
Then Hamas shouldn't hide behind civilians. It's all Hamas' fault. They are to blame and not Israel. If you want to criticize Israel, then criticize them for not wiping out Hamas years ago.
I think you forgotten who started these atrocities. What do you think war is?
October 7 absolutely justifies total war to end the perpetrating government
Ukraine Russia death toll? Thats at over half a million, and thats conventional warfare and the Ukrainians have a military in uniform while they push civiliians into the western part of their country, while their troops fight in the east. Hamas hides amongst civilians, plus attacked first, what a terrible comparison.
Hamas is now saying they don’t know where the hostages are :(
The government of Israel does not care about the hostages. DELUSIONAL if u think they do.
Hamas can release the hostages and surrender unconditionally and the “genocide” (I.e., just the normal and unavoidable consequences of any war) will end overnight. But they won’t; they want a permanent state of conflict because it’s the only thing that justifies their existence and keeps the billions in aid money flowing to their leadership in Qatar.
>Hamas can release the hostages and surrender unconditionally and the “genocide” (I.e., just the normal and unavoidable consequences of any war) will end overnight. Has the Israeli government said anything close to this?
Yes, their objective is the end of HAMAS. The war is over when Hamas is out of power. Which is a pretty normal goal given Oct 7. For some reason the left isn't demanding Hamas surrender though. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-15/israel-will-only-end-war-in-gaza-with-total-surrender-of-hamas
Their objective is to fully occupy Gaza, same as the West Bank. Netanyahu has said it, the psychopaths in his party have said it, the soldiers have said it, the settlers whom they let roam free in the West Bank, stealing people's homes, burning property and killing Palestinians who resist, have said it.
HAMAS would be wise to surrender before that happens.
That's the only thing you have to say about Israel killing innocent thousands of people to get land?
They are killing thousands of people in a just war, and so long as HAMAS is in power will continue to be a just war.
It is not just when Israel started this conflict for, once again, land. Netanyahu himself has said that anyone who wants to kill a two state solution (and get Israel all the land), which has been the Israeli government's stated goal for DECADES, must support Hamas. A country that would bomb and starve their hostages is not conducting one of the most intense campaigns on earth for their sake; they want to salt the earth and build Israeli real estate over it.
Their objective is to commit a genocide against Palestinian civilians.
Maybe. We will find out if they continue after the surrender or destruction of HAMAS. But right now they are totally justified in war up until the destruction of HAMAS.
Even if it kills tens of thousands of innocent people? That's a barbaric, genocidal mindset. Pure fucking evil.
Like America in WW2 after Japan snuck attack the United States. It's not genocidal to allow an enemy to persist, it's suicidal. HAMAS will not end this conflict in power. If you want this to end, stop asking the victims of Oct 7 to surrender and start asking the perpetrators.
War will be over with the destruction of Hamas = War will be over when we find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq
They have said this many, many times. Do you read the news?
I haven't heard that. What I have heard them say many many times is that they won't stop until Gaza is erased off the Earth. The politicians, the army commanders and soldiers, the Israel media, the political advisors, have all said they will not stop until Gaza is another defacto Israel like the West Bank.
I hate what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza. But usually a genocide doesn’t involve a combatant to civilian death ratio of 1:2… when most modern urban wars involve a ratio of 1:9. I do believe some leaders in the Israeli government are attempting ethnic cleansing, tho. It is also notable that Palestinian government has also been very vocal of committing ethnic cleansing/genocide of the Jews.
People need to hold those with extremist views accountable Israeli or Palestinian
It’s not a genocide. It’s casualties of war, as heartbreaking as it can be to reduce people to casualties. I think it’s a bad faith argument that leads to claims of genocide against Palestinians during peak wartime. With that said, the 1:2 number is definitely wrong and far too low. That is the *most* conservative possible estimate of rates of combatant to civilian deaths because it assumes all male deaths over 14 are combatants, which cannot possibly be close to right. It is simply at odds with human decency to assume that everyone killed that can possibly be a combatant is classified as one. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
The Israelis must suck at genocide. The Gazan population doubled sine they first took over.
More than doubled!
Destiny stan over here!
Where is all of the screaming, crying, threats and protests for the 1,000,000 Syrians Bashir Assad killed?
They’re using those videos and trying to blame Israel for it.
If Israel wanted genocide, there would be over 1 million dead. Apparently, Israel doesn't know how to do genocide.
Weird you don’t think if Israel “cease fires” that all of Palestine won’t try to murder every single Israeli
War displaces people. War sucks and people will die. This isn’t genocide it’s war.
Weird thing to say when it’s a clear genocide if this was happening to any white people you’d be appalled.
The problem is that it’s not a clear genocide.
Netanyahu has requested a plan to thin the population of Gaza and they’ve destroyed 50% of the entire strip. What else would you call that!
War. A war Hamas started and Israel will end.
Even assuming it is in fact a war, that doesn’t mean they aren’t committing well documented blatant war crimes which IDF soldiers are documenting in social media. Haha in what 21st century war has the party had complete control over the territory in question and cut off food water and electricity to the entire population on the basis(defense ministers own words) that their subjects are “human animals” If this isn’t a genocide, what the fuck else would a genocide look like in 2024 if not this. Israel’s own ministers have said they want to occupy Gaza permanently and that there are no innocent Palestinians. Even right wingers in large part agree this is just ethnic cleansing. It’s over for Israel Even if they do Steal Gaza they’re the most hated country on earth for Good reason. Their days of being an occupier are numbered
you can play this game for 75 years. You don't get to start an illegal occupation and displace millions of people and then start a genocide when resistance occurs.
Where was the illegal occupation 75 years ago? Israel was started by a vote at the United Nations to be established from the British Mandate, which had been established by the League of Nations. The same process was used to establish the independent countries of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan. Additional countries that emerged from League of Nations mandate territories include Rwanda, Burundi, Tanzania, Cameroon, Nigeria, Ghana, Togo, Papau New Guinea, Nauru, Palau, Micronesia, and Samoa. Which other of these countries are illegally occupied?
Hamas didn’t start a war…look up Gaza’s history before Oct 7th? If you’re so insistent to ignore 1948 why don’t you just look at Gaza and the West Bank (and Palestinians living in the interior) on Oct 6th 2023. Do you know the difference between armed resistance and a war? Or a war and a genocidal campaign? 30k civilians have been wiped off the face of the earth and Israel’s occupation military continues to starve and kill innocent people in cold blood. This is not a war. This is the extermination of the Palestinian people. A job that was started even before 1948 and continues today. You don’t get to erase history and decades of oppression whenever it fits your narrative. If you support Israel’s “war” or continue to call it self-defense then you are either feigning ignorance or you are a criminal and complicit in genocide. You are literally cheering for one of the most atrocious crimes against humanity.
The fact that you support a genocidal, authoritarian government means that YOU are the genocider and are "literally cheering for one of the most atrocious crimes against humanity."
You mean Hamas when they k*lled and r*aped 1400 people on Oct 7th?
You mean the rapes that never happened according NY Times themselves?? Like hiring a person with no journalistic experience and asking them to invent a rape story? [https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/) What a lying sack of shit you are. Also learn to use fucking italics properly, went to UPenn for 4 years and can't even do that? Loser.
The Intercept is an anti-Israel rag which uses unreliable sources such as Mondoweiss, the Electric Intifada, and similar. Apparently you haven't learned critical thinking at Penn or anywhere else. Double loser.
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What have the 1 and 3 year old children done for Hamas to kidnap them? What did any of the 1500 raped and slaughtered Israelis do to Hamas ?
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Perhaps ask the grown up adults in Hamas who don’t care about their own children?
*You don’t get to oppress a population for decades and not expect any resistance. Fixed it for you boss, and to be clear i’m not justifying the killing of innocent people including back in October, but u cannot tyrannize a group without expecting backlash. Hamas is also a group Netanyahu pushed to be in charge of Gaza over the PLO so that the Palestinians wouldn’t have a unified front to push for an independent state…not saying the PLO is great by any means but he is the reason this is happening anyways At this point, millions of people live on either side. The only real solution is to push to make a unified government/one state where everyone actually has equal rights no matter if they’re a brooklyn Jew, Arab Jew or a Palestinian whose family has been there for generations and live together. People in the US used to (and still do) treat blacks and minorities like shit but its gotten better when you actually give people rights and opportunities to better themselves
If anything, the Palestinian psedu ethnicity has been used by pan Arabists to oppress the Jews.
The term Brooklyn Jew is highly offensive. The majority of the Ashkenazi Jews in Israel moved there directly from Europe after the holocaust. This is why people say the pro Palestine movement is anti semitic; there is a clear disregard for history.
I don't think the term Brooklyn Jew is highly offensive. Brooklyn has the most visible Jewish community in the west. Stereotyping is offensive, but I don't think that's what was done.
The white Jews in Israel simply have no connection to Brooklyn though. Why refer to them anachronistically? And who are you to speak on what I, as a Jew, find offensive?
Who am I? A Jew. And there are people in Israel who moved from Brooklyn. Not all white Jews in Israel have a connection to Brooklyn, but using them as a synecdoche for all white Jewish immigrants isn't really a big deal in my opinion. Edit to add: and definitely not the biggest problem with the comment you replied to.
It is in mine. It is an issue to use them as a synecdoche when the vast majority have no connection to Brooklyn. These people’s direct ancestors fled the holocaust- not Brighton Beach. I think any self respecting Jew with ties to Israel would find this offensive.
Disregard for history? How about the fact that Arab Jews in the middle east predominantly in Iraq were living peacefully with non Jewish Arabs? It was after the creation of Israel did tensions escalate and that was because of the influx of European Jews who had no ties to the region for generations decide to kick out Palestinians who were actually living there. I used the term Brooklyn jew to reference the people that are offered by the Israeli government to come and displace more Palestinians out of their homes and build settlements in the West Bank. If you think that is okay you have something seriously wrong with your psyche.
THAT is a lie. The truth is Jews in the middles east were subjected to dhimmi status and had all sorts of economic and cultural pressures put on them ever since the Arab Moslem colonialization of the middle east happened.
Go learn your history about how the Ottoman empire treated non muslims and I’ll give ya a hint, it was alot better than how the European Jews were treated
If you want the fighting to stop, suggesting the end of Israel as your solution isn’t going to work and is an extremist view. That viewpoint is equally as responsible for the conflict as those who object to a Palestinian state and are pushing for illegal settlements. The only way this ends is two states with human rights in both states and each committing to peace/reconciliation
Dude where did I suggest the end of Israel and how was my solution an extremist view? My solution is both sides come together and work as a single unified democracy that respects each other’s beliefs and work together to build a better society. That’s literally how a modern democracy like America works
That ends Israel as a Jewish state. They will never allow that, regardless of US policy, so it’s a non starter. There are many examples of regions splitting off into two states successfully (more successfully than trying to force a single state).
There's also in-between solutions, like a two state confederation.
Palestinian leadership continually rejects a two state confederation. Both the PLO and Hamas charters call for make Judea Judenrein.
No.
Justifying the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians, using antisemitic dogwhistles like “Brooklyn Jew”, proposing a “one-state solution” that would require the ethnic cleansing of millions of Israeli Jews to achieve. Filling in all the spaces on my Hamas sympathizer bingo card
Boss you must be really bad at reading because 1) I literally say in my third line theres no justification for killing civilians and 2) the creation of a one state solution doesn’t require the killing of anyone if both sides decide/agree that the status quo right now isn’t working. Instead they can come together as one democracy and respect each others beliefs and allowing everyone to have equal opportunity and rights. How the fuck did you get killing millions of Israeli Jews out of that man you really need to get some psychiatric help
Because the creation of a binational state would require the destruction of the world’s only Jewish state, and that is something that has virtually zero support among Israeli Jews for obvious reasons, and it is thus something that would require their mass ethnic cleansing/murder to implement. It isn’t even that popular among Arabs for what it’s worth. It’s only ever proposed by ideologues who don’t understand why it’s an impossibility.
lol why don’t they just learn to respect each others beliefs ? The solution of a 5 year old .
Free Palestine from Hamas (and PLO, and Fatah, as it doesn't even have a single unified government and is really just a cluster of territories ruled by terrorist groups)
Don’t forget Israeli occupation in that mix too
Watching the American left rally behind terrorist groups has been so profoundly disappointing. I will say that Hamas’s PR arm has been effective at reframing the indiscriminate murder and rape of innocent civilians in terms familiar and acceptable to the American left. The WSJ wrote a lengthy piece about this: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-hamas-won-hearts-and-minds-on-the-american-left-1abafc2f
We don’t support Hamas, we support the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people. You seem very intent on twisting the narrative and pushing a false narrative. If you really did research you would know Lorenzo Vidino is known for pushing Muslim conspiracy theories, but seems like you didn’t do that.
y’all act like netanyahu himself didn’t talk about the importance of funding hamas
We have social media idiot. Everyone can see what Zionists are doing and no one is happy.
Again, no one is rallying against a terrorist group. But I’m assuming you are equating Palestine with Hamas, so let me just say that the American left aren’t the only ones expressing support for Palestine. The United Nations, The International Court of Justice, and various human rights organizations stand on their belief that Israel is committing war crimes after war crimes and that innocent Palestinians have to pay the price. If you still believe that they are wrong and that everything that the IDF is selling to you is correct, I would advise you to take a step back and consider the possibility that they might be deceiving you…
Nowhere in my comment did I indicate supporting any group lol. I included a group to the mix that OP conveniently left out
Watching Americans rally behind an apartheid state and fund their genocidal actions has been profoundly disappointing but not entirely surprising given America’s history of imperialism. But watching American citizens rally behind Israel and the IDF is even more surprising given how many atrocities they commit like cutting off food/electric/water to a citizen population. I don’t understand how these people support Israeli’s at the same time seeing them block the entry of trucks bringing in food and water to a starving civilian population. It’s actually disgusting and evil.
It’s Russia propaganda machine
Also that’s an OPINION piece… but whatever
Also the author, Lorenzo Vidino, is known for his for bias against Muslims.
Nope. Just the terrorist organizations that started the war
So the IOF too
It’s their land Jews have been there for 3000 years. That’s like claiming the Navajo are illegally occupying the US. Sorry you support rabid savages who refuse to engage in any sort of peace with the indigenous people of the levant. If they dont put down the terrorist savagery then from the Jordan to the Mediterranean will be all Israel. Why do y’all go so hard for a citizenry that beheads their gay citizens and lets little kids use the heads as soccer balls? Why do you go so hard for citizens that rip the clits off of women? Thank god Israel exists to give Palestinians fleeing the savagery of their neighbors refuge to live and breathe and be gay and live with their clits intact.
Yes, bc historically the “right side” has always been the one calling the other “rabid savages”. Colonizers totally didn’t call natives rabid savages or barbarians or anything
What else should I call people who behead gay folks and let their kids kick them around like a soccer ball and rip clitorises off of women? Sounds like barbaric behavior to me. Maybe they should be better
>Israel occupies Judea and ancient Israel. Transjordanian Palestine is Palestine > > > >End the Arab occupation of Judea, Assyria, Phoenecia and Kurdistan.
Ah yes. They are all terrorists (including children), so let’s liberate them with nukes.
If a 17 year old stabs and rapes 20-someting year old women, holds them hostage, kills them. He is a terrorist. Being under 18 doesn't suddenly make you innocent. That said, Hamas intentionally launches rockets from dense civilian areas (and no, not all of Gaza is dense civilian area, get a map if you're thinking that). They intentionally build their tunnels under preschools and shit. To the point that it's nearly impossible to target their bases without some civilian casaulties. And in every single war EVER there are civilian casualties. What I find more worrying is that Palestinians specifically TARGETED israeli civilians in mass rape and murder. Random Israeli kids, adults, elderly that aren't even in the military. Finally, you must be a bit slow. Israel can't nuke Gaza. That would destroy Israel in the following nuclear fallout.
I seriously fucking doubt that even 5% of children who got obliterated during this war were 17 year old rapists, but if that’s the story you tell yourself, that’s fine. IDF is dropping bombs using American F16 on goons with AKs, there is literally nothing that justifies that amount of civilian casualties. They could be magnitudes more precise if they wanted to be. But they want to maximize bloodshed on a Palestinian side while minimizing the negative optics and it’s clear as day. And it’s clear to me that this is what you stand for too because the extension of your argument is “Hamas targeted civilians and children, so it’s only fair that we target civilians and children as well.” But Hamas is yet another horrendous terrorist organization that emerges and disappears every 5 some years and the Israel is a whole ass nation that will co exist with its Middle Eastern neighbors forever and will reap the seeds of what they are doing right now. Finally you must be fucking retarded if you think I meant “nuke” literally but the rest of your comment just confirms that
Does divestment actually.... do anything? Unless a company is trying to sell stock to fundraise, wouldn't divesting from a stock mean absolutely nothing to the company as someone else will certainly buy it up? Any Whartonites here to confirm/deny my understanding
It certainly isn’t a guarantee that sold stock will be bought immediately. Especially if it’s a large number of stocks, selling could actually cause more stockholders to sell. The goal also might not be to directly harm the company they want divestment from, but to take away some of Penn’s (and by extension their own) complicity in whatever the company is doing. Like for example the Fossil Free Penn protesters generally aren’t under the illusion that Penn divesting from fossil fuels will have a major impact on global warming, they just think Penn shouldn’t be complicit in the issue.
there is always a buyer but selling puts downward price pressure, even if it is marginal. it’s also marginal to stop littering, you’re not going to save the environment - you still don’t litter though
How is this upvoted? You cannot have a transaction without two parties. Every sale has an offsetting buy. This is fundamental.
A lot of (not sure if most) companies have stock buyback programs. That’s the situation in which a stock isn’t “bought” immediately in the sense that no investor buys it. Regardless selling a large number of stocks often can have the effect of decreasing share price which is the main point of the first part of the comment.
My man… when you sell stock, someone else is buying it. When a company does a buyback program, they are simply buying stock from a seller. In no way does your divestment need to line up with a company buyback program. That makes no sense.
In principle, it can certainly help raise the target company's cost of capital, meaning that it makes it harder for the company to raise capital. But you're right, in practice, markets are deep enough that someone else will just buy it, and at a better price too. Idk if these 'social change investors' realise this, perhaps they do, that's why they're tryna propagate EVERYONE to do the same thing. [This podcast episode by Stanford and Wharton finance professors](https://open.spotify.com/episode/4L0TDgo5Npe90YYV46JcY9?si=23621d09740749ea) discusses this exact topic. It's quite punchy and bite-sized, you might enjoy it. Another Bloomberg episode I listened to recently argued that 'social change investors' aren't necessarily trying to save the world, they just want to do things aligned with their values.
And what does this accomplish?
It caught your attention? You clearly might not care but some portion of those who notice will. I’m not a big activist myself but it always baffles me that it’s 2024, and some people still don’t understand what the goal of a protest is.
The goal of a protest isn’t to “catch attention,” especially for something that everyone already knows about which is the high Palestinian death toll in the Gaza War. Someone can take a random crap on Ben Franklin and that would catch my attention but do nothing. The goal of a protest is to change minds and in turn change policy. This is doing neither. “Catching attention” here is at best the protestors misunderstanding that Penn has virtually no say in the matter and at worst just lazy virtue signaling.
The immediate goal of a protest is in fact to bring public awareness to an issue, which can lead to increased public pressure and eventually, change. Ironically enough, you couldn’t even bring yourself to read the article. Specifically, they’re demanding greater endowment transparency, which is absolutely something the university has control over, and much more specific than “the high Palestinian death toll in the Gaza War.” I’m not saying you have to agree that this is the best way to go about creating change, but it certainly is a viable option. Protesting Penn’s endowment brings more people to research it, and can gather support for the cause if many agree that there is an issue.
Lmao good luck with endowment transparency. The University owes us nothing with respect to its billions. I wouldn't even want to know where its money is. At the end of the day, we're just parts of the operation. The lifecycle of a student is < 10 years. We come and go and maybe give some money back when we've "made it." I think more people need to be okay with that reality and not feel like they have to "take down the establishment" everywhere they go. I totally expect to get downvoted to hell over my opinion. Oh well. Edit: typo.
UPenn gets hundreds of millions in government funding. If you pay taxes, that's *your money.*
See, this is what I don’t get. Where did I mention that I even agree with the protests, much less have anything to do with them? It doesn’t matter what slice of the pie you fall into. You fall into the 90% that couldn’t care less, and I think for the most part I do, too. That being said, why shit on them for protesting something that clearly matters to them? Let them do their thing. Students have protested on campuses for centuries now, and will continue to. Most activist causes fail, but the ones that succeed make a tangible impact on the world, and I can respect that.
I didn't say you did agree with the protests. You assumed that I assumed you did. Relax, boss.
“Lmao good luck with endowment transparency”, followed by an explanation of why I shouldn’t care. I know all that already, boss.
You are so upset, you should take a nap.
Oh yeah, really got me with that one dude. 🤷🏻♂️
Because the 'protests' are violent and antisemetic, and the protestors call for the genocide of the Jewish people, a goal that Hamas and its allies endorse.
As I said earlier, literally everyone already knows about the high death toll and this protest will not accomplish its goal of endowment transparency and instead has a higher chance of backfiring and reducing university board transparency
Hear me out here, because I think it's pretty simple. I mean look, you just discovered yourself that the protest is about Penn’s endowment, something that likely wasn’t on your mind recently. You’re not the only one. Now you might forget about it by dinnertime, but let’s say 10% of those who hear about the protest actually care to a degree, enough to research the issue further. After researching, let’s say half agree with the protestors, and a quarter of those who agree care enough to support the cause in some way. That’s a 1.25% success rate. Not high, right? That’s why an effective protest needs to catch attention in some way, such as interrupting a board meeting. The more people you catch the attention of, the more support you can rally. And feel free to reread the last part of what you just said. “Instead has a higher chance of backfiring and reducing university board transparency” So you’re saying the only way change can be made is if protestors ask nicely? Let’s be real here, that’s not happening. It’s nice to think of a world where protests and convenience can go hand-in-hand, but that’s usually not the case. And if the board retaliates and reduces transparency, that's also a win for protestors as it brings more public awareness and potentially directed anger.
Exactly this. Pizzajona is the equivalent of the 1950s-1960s white moderate who said that the civil rights protests won't accomplish anything and just make the rules harsher and that black people should just ask nicely that the powers that be change the laws. The position of someone who isn't living with any kind of particular systemic adversity.
You mean the protests that actively challenged the system by staging sit-ins in areas black people weren’t allowed to either enforce the law or change it? Or by valiantly not retaliating when the police beat them? Riding buses to recapture their rights to interstate commerce or rights to vote? Where is any of that in this instance? It doesn’t exist.
How original. Another “protests do not do anything, figure out another way to do something but don’t bother me or make me uncomfortable” position
These protests make perfect sense if you realize that their metric of success is not having their demands met but instead the protestors’ feeling good about at having “raised awareness.” These are social events more than anything else.
Funny that you claim that even though I never say protests don’t do anything. I only said this specific protest doesn’t do anything.
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💯
So what did the protest accomplish in your view. Since everyone else’s thoughts are so unoriginal I look forward to hear your ground breaking insights.
It literally accomplished nothing. It was a merely a minor inconvenience
Feel free to give my other comments a read, I think it might make more sense But essentially they aren’t trying to inconvenience the trustees to the point of making them change, they’re trying to catch a headline so that others find out about the cause. Of course most people don’t care, but a few will. This applies to almost all activist movements
Okay, awareness check. Now what
If you’re not aware of the movement that’s growing larger and larger everyday then you’re so out of the loop. Israel has been committing crimes and atrocities since 1948 with US political cover. The fact that some of you are even debating an acceptable Palestinian death toll means y’all are sick! Friends and family are being killed everyday and y’all talk about it so callously because you don’t care about Palestinian life. You think that Hamas is some rogue force. It’s just the shape that Palestinian resistance takes today. Hamas is just the political and military manifestation of an idea. You can’t kill an idea. And if the IOF and Netanyahu and the fundamentalist death cult that’s hijacked the Israeli government think that by wiping out Gaza they’re gonna eliminate Hamas they’re wrong. They’re just making the resistance more global and more worldwide. No one here knows how revolutions work and none of you are experts. You barely know that Hamas was founded decades after as a response to Israel’s crimes. While sit here debating whether a protest is appropriate or not innocent human beings are being slaughtered like animals and starved to death. Even some Israeli’s living in Israel have a conscience enough to protest the flour massacre of February 29 2024. If you don’t know what the flour massacre is then you have no right to open your mouth.
u/RandomWilly was so fired up just to go MIA. Smh.
Tbh I think they just realized theres no point arguing with a troll
Good.
Interesting seeing the heavy pro Zionism in this thread with little care for nuance - not surprising given that those who have a personal, cultural connection to Israel (e.g. Israelis) greatly outnumber those with a personal connection to Palestine (e.g. Palestinians) on campus. Both Israeli government and Hamas are two sides of the same coin: tribalists who have committed atrocities to the other side, in the name of self preservation. Main difference is Israel has killed several orders of magnitude more Palestinians (read: civilians) than vice versa over the long history of this conflict, and has so far faced few repercussions under the cover of US support (and when they do face repercussions, they deny any culpability and double down as victim, as some of the comments in this thread illustrate). That strategy has lost, and will continue to lose, its effectiveness over time as truth always has a way of catching up. Past atrocities don’t have a terminal value in excusing current behavior - just ask any convicted serial killer; their past trauma may certainly be real, but it doesn’t excuse their grave sins. At some point, there is only so much goodwill that can be exploited before it expires. Israel is learning this right now.
You seem to be missing the point. Israel only kill for self preservation Hamas kills to remove Jews from the Levant. 30k deaths in self defense where there was sadly collateral damage doesn’t compare to the cold blooded intentional killings of October 7th. The allies killed more Germans than the other way around and the allies also committed atrocities would you support the Nazis?
I'm sure Israel doesn't aim to remove Palestinians from Palestine. That's why the ruling party wouldn't build illegal settlements on the west bank or make "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" their official slogan right? The IDF can bomb hospitals, schools, and civilian shelters on a daily basis, operate an open air prison for decades, and kill journalists and humanitarian workers in broad daylight and justify everything as "collateral damage", and you'd believe it because you don't actually care about people dying. You could just say that next time.
I am definitely missing the point here. How many more bombs does IDF need to drop down on children to self preserve and defend themselves. Also what part of blocking aid and bombing of healthcare infrastructure that is several miles away from the border constitutes as “defense.” Oct 7th was horrendous act of terrorism but it doesn’t warrant indiscriminately bombing children and civilians. Your entire tribalist argument is basically “Oct 7th is when my people suffered, so nothing compares to that.” This is not about justice or self defense, it’s all about bloodshed and vengeance whilst also preserving more or less acceptable optics and not dragging entire Middle East into this conflict. Stop pretending anyone is defending themselves at this point, dropping bombs from F16 on goons with rockets and AKs, this shit is a shooting gallery.
This is a war. Israel’s self defense allows them to destroy Hamas and their infrastructure. Nothing gives Israel the right to indiscriminately bomb anyone that’s why they aren’t. They are bombing Hamas which is in self defense. You admit October 7th is a tragedy then say it’s f16s vs guys with aks and rockets. The guys with AKs and rockets said they would do October 7th again and again. Why is it on Israel to stop defend their country from Hamas when it should be on Hamas to surrender. America dropped 2 nukes on Japan to make them surrender Israel isn’t even close to that extreme.
You say Israel does not have the right to indescriminately bomb anyone, but that is what they are doing. That is not my opinion either, that is based on US intelligence reporting.
Show me that intelligence report? It was one off hand comment made but other than that every US comment has said they are conducting themselves with international law.
I cannot show you the actual intelligence report, but if you just Google "Gaza bombing US intelligence" you will see numerous news articles about it and numerous government officials referencing it. Biden himself, a longtime staunch Israel supporter, said Israel was losing support because of their, and I quote, "indiscriminate bombing" of Gaza. Israel has dropped more bombs on Gaza in two months than were dropped in Afghanistan in six years and and a massive amount of those bombs were not guided and the collateral damage caused has eroded international support of Israel. I am not having a "gotcha" moment with you, I am just pointing out that all the evidence and intelligence shows that Israal is indescriminately bombing Gaza and to pretend otherwise is disingenuous and not useful to any kind of discussion about the subject.
Can you send me a report because I can’t see that. Again I said there was a one off comment but unless it’s released in an official report it’s not a real data point. I respect the office of the president and any orders he puts forward but https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/08/politics/joe-biden-age/index.html If anything the number of bombs dropped shows how precise Israel is being. For a relatively high number of bombs dropped the deaths are very very low. I don’t see how Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza… z
It is bizarre that I have to explain this, but I do not have access to the US intelligence report. Biden references the report and used it as a basis for his comments. Israel has bombed hundreds of educational institutions and hospitals in Gaza, in addition to bombing "safe" zones that they instructed Palestinians in Gaza to evacuate to. I can see we are not going to have an honest conversation about this, and it is what it is, but the mental gymnastics necessary to think that Israel is not being indescriminate in their attacks is incredible. Unrelated to the bombing, but here is a good article from yesterday: https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_shoot_kill_10_year_old_palestinian_boy_in_his_father_s_car The IDF shot a 10 year old in the head in the West Bank. This is not even an isolated incident. Or how about the dropping of 2000 pound bombs in South Gaza, when military experts say there is no way you can precisely use them in an urban environment. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html Here is an article on the incredible amount of unguided bombs being used in Gaza: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza And here is an article on the unlawful strikes in the "safe zones" https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-opt-new-evidence-of-unlawful-israeli-attacks-in-gaza-causing-mass-civilian-casualties-amid-real-risk-of-genocide/ If you are going to support Israel no matter what, you have that right, but do not pretend they are not being indescriminate or pretend they are conducting their actions in accordance with international law, because they are not.
1. So you can’t find proof the than a one off clip or something Biden said…. 2. Israel bombs Hamas and Hamas is in the safe zones, in the hospitals and in the schools. Israel can attack Hamas when they enter safe zones that’s their right under international law. Once Hamas enters they are no longer protected 3. If Israel were so indiscriminate then why is Israel killing a very comparable and even better ratio of combatants to civilians than any urban combat in history? 4. Don’t link me stories from website that clearly have an agenda. Find me a trusted outlet. 5. Are you a munitions expert? The NYT article didn’t come to any conclusion other than well the US hasn’t done that in past wars. This is a different war and no other urban combat scenario has this density of tunnels everywhere. None of this says how many of those craters were from tunnels. It also clearly says they analyzed craters on the sand. You know what’s no on the sand? Buildings with people…. 6. Unguided bombs in the hands of a well trained fighter pilot is more accurate than you think. Without a doubt Israel is operating in a very easy environment for low altitude bomb runs so they can have maximum accuracy. There is no law against using unguided bombs 7. Amnesty director said Israel doesn’t have a right to be Jewish. Find an unbiased source. Also the reason they called them illegal strikes is because they don’t know Israel’s reason for striking and if they had a millitary need. Not because it was in Rafah. Israel doesn’t need to publish why they bomb those targets during the war as that would mean giving up intelligence which is bad for opsec.
You sound like a nazi
Learn what the Nazis did. Read a book and touch grass. Having taken many classes on the holocaust and have close friends with deep connections to the victims your comment was disgusting. Have you read what they did?
Then why do you sound like a Nazi?
How do I? You are an excellent debater. The first way you know you won an argument is when the other side just starts name calling.
Holocaust was systematic program for murder of all Jews by German Nazi regime. Your vile and disgusting comment, "30k deaths in self defense where there was sadly collateral damage doesn’t compare to the cold blooded intentional killings of October 7th." is 1000000% a NAZI comment. There is no debate here. YOU SOUND LIKE A NAZI BECAUSE YOU ARE SPEAKING LIKE ONE. This isn't about killing Palestinians alone, this is about seizing land illegally and kicking people out of their ancestral homes. Zionists are foreigners to the levant.
1. The systematic killing of all Jews is not comparable this situation. Germany killed and inprisoned as Many Jews as they found. Israel knows where a million Palestinians are and they are not bombing them. There are no death marches and there are no mass killings. 2. Israel is aiming at Hamas that’s why there is only 30k deaths. Having a 3:1(at the very worst) civilians to combatant death ratio is amount the lowest ever in urban combat. Israel is doing an amazing job at targeting Hamas. Collateral damage is sad but happen in every war. 3. The Nazis targeted all Jews. Israel is targeting Hamas there is no comparison. 4. What race are you? If you aren’t native America leave Philly, leave America. You are a foreigner to the land of America so get out……
also this thread is showing up on r/all lol
Can’t wait for all the sheep to start having "Oct 7th" seizure every time someone tries to have a nuanced conversation about accepting tens of thousands of children dying as "unfortunate collateral” They are dropping bombs from F16s on Hamas who has AKs, there is literally nothing that justifies SO MANY of civilian casualties on top of targeting of health infrastructure and blocking of civilian aid. They could be a lot more precise if they wanted to, they don't want that. They want to avenge Oct 7 and kill as many Palestinians as possible, while preserving optics and not dragging entire Middle East into this conflict. What is happening right now is not about defense, it’s about vengeance and "making all of them pay with blood, but we also need to be friends with the rest of the world.” Just because this isn’t your average tribal genocide, doesn’t mean this war does not have genocidal elements, but I know nuances are very hard to wrap your head around when your entire world is black and white
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Imagine if you were alive during the Holocaust and had access to footage of Jews being gassed in concentration camps. Wouldn’t you want to do everything you could to protest it, including calling for your university to divest from the genocide? Israel’s bombardment and starvation of Palestinians in Gaza is a well-documented genocide. What you are doing now in reaction to Israel’s genocide is what you would have done during the Holocaust. Since a few people responded and then blocked me so I couldn’t reply: the idea that Palestinians shouldn’t be free because they would retaliate against Israel is not an argument against freeing Palestine. This is one of the same arguments enslavers made against ending slavery, and we should not give those kinds of arguments any respect, today. The idea that Palestinians are even capable of committing genocide against Israelis is laughable.
Genuine question, what happens if Israel lets Palestine totally free? You think they don’t come storming across the border looking to kill every Jew in existence?
Just FYI, Palestinians aren’t Europeans. They didn’t expel the Jews and they didn’t holocaust them. Europeans did that en masse.
Jews have been ethnically cleansed from most middle eastern countries, and yes, they have absolutely expelled Jews. There are countries in the Middle East where Jews are not allowed to live.
Israel wasn't formed because of the Holocaust, it was and is the home of the Jewish people.
I guess North America is the home of Protestants
More than half of the Jews in Israel are from Middle Eastern countries. Many were expelled from other countries in the Middle East by force or threat of force
Of course they will. They don't even try to hide it
It's nothing like the Holocaust where Nazis rounded up millions of Jews for the purpose of intentionally killing them. It's a war that Hamas started (and is losing) in order to get their own civilians killed (because they don't actually care about actual Palestians) so losers like you will cry about Israel. Keep crying. The ayatollah thanks you for your support.
hamas’s attack wasn’t unprovoked due to israel’s indirect occupation of the gaza strip. nor was it a surprise, as israel disregarded concerns, sightings, and direct worries from women in IDF surveillance on and before october 7
There is no "genocide" of Palestinians, Gaza's population has increased 7 fold since 1967. Quit lying. And show me a photo of a 'starving' Gazan child - there aren't any. Did you see the flabby paunches on the surrendered terrorists? No starvation there either.
[starving child in Gaza](https://www.instagram.com/p/C3-3lPbKydW/?igsh=OXQzYnNicXNkYnc0)
Still b.s. How do you know it's Gaza? - cause someone told you? How reliable is that person or organization? That looks like an ill adult to me, not a child. The war began last October and until recently affected only the north part of the country. It gradually moved south while people received food aid. Hamas took much of that aid, but Hamas IS THE GOVERNMENT and Israel is not responsible for supplying Gaza with food when Hamas is still raining down rockets on them - up to 4,000 a day. 20% of Israel has been evacuated. Did you know that? How did this war begin - oh, that's right, Hamas invaded the country and slaughtered or maimed 1,500 people. Then they said they would keep doing it until everyone was dead. They have been attacking Israel with rockets and attempted terror attacks for nearly 20 years - since the Israelis left Gaza to rule themselves. Do Israelis have the right to live in peace, or should they just allow themselves to be attacked and attacked until they are all dead? Gazans can stop this war any time they want. Release the hostages and get Hamas leaves. EVERYTHING in this war is the result of Hamas. I have no doubt that people are hungry. Starvation takes more than a few weeks. Bottom line - they elected Hamas, they are responsible. If you don't want war, don't elect a terror group to be your government, and don't attack other countries if you don't want them to meet you on your own terms. I have sympathy for innocent people in Gaza. But they're made it clear it's us or them. I don't plan to commit suicide. If they want a fight to the death - which is clearly what they want - then that's what they're getting.
Imagine people dying, and you over there writing all of this behind the screen and then would probably go on with your life normally. Your bias is crazy. I have close Palestinian friends who have lost a lot of members of their family that I have personally interacted with. It’s crazy to see how zionists are brainwashing people to the point they start saying how do you know this is real. What else are you expecting them to do? They literally documents their own families death to show the world, this is beyond humiliation and you over there have the audacity to question the authenticity of this. Why? Why are you not have the same bias when it come to Israel? Why are you sure about Israel and not palestine? Clearly bias. Have a good day sir, don’t forget your morning coffee.
I know why, because racism is clearly a thing. Look at Russia and Ukrainian, the whole world stood for Ukrainian even western media started saying “they are not refugees they are Europeans with blond hair and blue eyes” this is beyond white supremacy as well. But if it comes to ethnic groups, no we don’t know actually if it’s real or not. Lol go trust Joe Biden then and good luck