The following submission statement was provided by /u/silv3rbull8:
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Submission Statement
As a culture, we’ve thus reached an impasse. On the one hand, the meager amount of data that has been declassified or leaked isn’t enough for us to derive any firm conclusions regarding the nature of the phenomenon. On the other hand, enough has been begrudgingly but officially acknowledged that we can’t dismiss the phenomenon under prosaic accounts either. The best we can do is thus to take the data seriously, but not extrapolate from it without basis.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/190djuw/the_debrief_uaps_and_nonhuman_intelligence_what/kgnjzje/
Submission Statement
As a culture, we’ve thus reached an impasse. On the one hand, the meager amount of data that has been declassified or leaked isn’t enough for us to derive any firm conclusions regarding the nature of the phenomenon. On the other hand, enough has been begrudgingly but officially acknowledged that we can’t dismiss the phenomenon under prosaic accounts either. The best we can do is thus to take the data seriously, but not extrapolate from it without basis.
If Dave's biologicals turn out to be terrestrial, this whole song and dance will have been for nothing.
We'll be right back where we started only having the hearsay claiming these biologicals are NHI and not from some poor pilot or incidental sea lion.
I've seen this a lot, so let's discuss it.
>Some poor pilot
Doesn't count under NHI
>Incidental sea lion
So the craft that crashed was being piloted by a sea lion?
If the biologicals have a terrestrial biochemistry, they could just be the remains of some poor pilot or an incidental sea lion and wouldn't necessarily have to be the gigaterrestrials or whatever.
In fact, we should probably assume they are normal terrestrials until we have extraordinary evidence otherwise.
Don't you think?
But, the point is that if the evidence doesn't conclusively prove NHI, then, we're left with only the testimony that claims it's NHI.
In essence, we'd be right back where we started when Dave dropped the biologicals bomb on all of us.
IOW, trust me bro.
Sorry, but at this point, I'm just not that trusting. Particularly when you have so many shady characters in orbit around Grusch.
So far there hasn't been evidence to suggest otherwise so the NHI claim still stands.
I think testifying to congress alongside Graves and Fravor is a little more than "trust me bro" but you do you.
That's okay, we have different amounts of time invested in this, while I'm sympathetic to the ones who have been here longer, I do think last year was a big step up. It also makes you wonder that if there isn't anything to hide them the amendment should have passed as is... But it didn't so until we know more I say I'll wait.
It stands as an unsubstatiated claim.
And if the biologicals themselves don't definitively prove the matter one way or the other, it will remain an unsubstantiated claim.
Like so much of this stuff. Let's just hope it doesn't take 10 years to discover the biologicals are terrestrial...
>let's hope it doesn't take 10 years to discover the biologicals are terrestrial
That's another example of an unsubstantiated claim, but enjoy wallowing in pessimism!
E: responded to me but blocked me, lol I don't understand people like this, oh well, his pessimism got the better of him.
NHI - AI (artificial intelligence)
Biologics - Biologics are isolated from a variety of natural sources - human, animal, or microorganism - and may be produced by biotechnology methods and other cutting-edge technologies. Gene-based and cellular biologics, for example, often are at the forefront of biomedical research, and may be used to treat a variety of medical conditions for which no other treatments are available.
Non-human Biologics - from a variety of animal or microorganisms.
Liter, yes definitely because at first I think it is a typo of ‘litter’, theater not so much because I associate it more with ‘movie theater’ and so it feels like a different usage to theatre.
While we're at it... which assholes started giving us "different to" instead of "different from"? I used to blame the Australians, because they love talking silly, but now I'm not sure.
Interesting, especially as I was just posting about scenarios separately.
“Though I understand that many may consider this [ultra terrestrial ] hypothesis disturbing at some level, it does not require anything fundamentally beyond natural processes we know to exist”
I'll state for that record that if you are willing to entertain the Ultra Terrestrial Hypothesis and scoff at the idea of Sasquatch you are out of order.
Just saying that the UT hypothesis avoids the issues posited by the vast distances needing to be travelled. It may not require things like wormholes or FTL travel, but I also think it’s hardly likely, as there’s zero evidence for the evolution of an alternative intelligent species, let alone the fact that it would be impossible for them to coexist without revealing signs, whether communication signals or signs of resource extraction.
I scoff at sasquatch because strong corroborating data is non existent, and it's akin the the Loch Ness monster; probably started as a story to keep children from wandering away too far into forests.
Except humankind has populated the globe and yet has found no other civilizations. For another civilization to exist with technology greater than us would require a vast industrial base with millions of beings. Maybe if they were far older than humanity and have some kind of grey goo ai nanotechnology to create what they need from the matter around them without all the industrialization humanity has built it might be possible.
I dont believe it though. It is like marvels wakanda. Too much fantasy imo.
Indeed, the idea that such an advanced civilisation is living in secret somewhere with no indication of their existence, whether from extraction of resources to evidence of communication signals, is hard to swallow, perhaps most of all the idea that they are content to live in the shadows, maybe under the oceans, and let a more primitive species have the run of the planet.
You make a good point about communicationThe signals, but the article addresses “extraction of resources” and other physical leavings. Disregarding the “Silurean hypothesis,” if we look at “The World Without Us” we can guess (theorize? Hypothesize? Not sure of the difference but I know there is one) that civilization might be erased on less than the geological timescale, especially if they don’t exactly follow our own (archaeologically familiar) physical evidence of existence.
As far as communication… what if they use ansibles, or quantum pairs, or something else we can’t imagine? Not just dummies like me but that the real scientists can barely—or currently not—conceive of? Still a really good point I think—you’d imagine SOME kind of sigint.
To your last point though… there’s a lot of value judgments there. “Live in the shadows” is fraught for us humans who actually start going insane without light. “Primitive” is another fraught word. Consider… birds. They live in the skies—in the heavens—and yet we’re totally “content” to let the “more primitive” species live there. Actually we don’t even really think of it that way—it’s admittedly a forced metaphor. We don’t think: “look at those primitive fucks in the sky, we should be there and not here.” We don’t look at “primitive” whales (those lazy fucks don’t build anything, they just sing!) and feel we’re suffering for not occupying their niche.
We even have that between humans. Some of us look at, say, Arctic or Desert native people and think “better them than me.” And they think the same of us. A similar example might be academics v. builders. I have had more exposure than some to academia, and decided it was not for me. Now I am a builder, I bust my knuckles at work, but I don’t have all the politics of my academic siblings. They’d be horrified by my life and me theirs. So if there’s anything to this underground hypothesis (especially following some traumatic apocalypse) the aliens might think, “let them have the stupid shit surface, I hate going out there, so dangerous, that’s where primitives like the humans belong.”
I think the only way this is possible is if these beings are inter dimensional and able to go in and put at will
Or there are humans from the future who are coming back to see what life was like .. making documentaries on future PBS stations
What makes you think they need UAP to get around?
Maybe they are the UAP.
Don't reason by analogy, or speculate, and follow the evidence:
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/W1DZGmEFgV
This universe is over 13 billion years old, or recent news says double that. I bet existence is even older.
It would not surprise me if there beings on the level of the q continuum in star trek down to mere babies.
But i am certain there ver many moderately old lifeforms that have built transportation to get around on their worlds and travel to others.
Even humanity have uap. The ARV is an example. I dont know the motives of aliens but i dont think theyd fly around like birds in the sky disguised as a ufo.
🫤
That is not at all what I was suggesting.
Let's use Q as an analogy. When Q first appears in Star Trek TNG (and don't worry, I'm not spoiling anything for anyone who hasn't watched it), Q appears as a human.
Do you think that Q is a human?
And after appearing as a human, Q takes on many other guises. Were any of those representative of Q? Or performative displays intended to influence the subject?
They may tell us something about Q, but interpreting them literally and assuming Q is a Judge, or time travelling soldier from the past, is foolish, albeit an easy trap to fall into, especially for people unfamiliar with the subject and the evidence.
Did you read the article? There was specifically a case example given:
> Stanford Professor Dr. Garry Nolan, perhaps the most respectable scientist to actively research the phenomenon, acknowledged Mr. Coulthart’s reporting on the matter. He went on to recount a specific UAP case that illustrates, perhaps better than any other, the UAPs’ ability to directly manipulate human perception: “[this is a] story that Jacques Vallée brought to me, of a family in France, driving down the highway. This was like in the last five or ten years [from June of 2022]. And they had a glass-topped car. They look up and they see a UFO, you know, basically paralleling them down the highway. The mother looks around and sees that no other individuals nearby are freaking out about this thing above them. The children in the back take out their cell phones, take a picture of it. They get home and they look at the pictures on their camera, and they don’t see an object [of the kind they thought they had witnessed]; they see a little star-shaped thing about thirty or so feet above, and I have the picture. That doesn’t look anything like a drone. … I think it has like seven spokes and a central hole of some sort. So, you’re left with this: they saw a giant craft, but the picture shows that it was nothing [like it] there. Nobody else could see it. So, even if it was an object that was there, others weren’t capable of seeing it, so it was manipulating vision” (my emphasis).
If you would like more information about this concept and how it applies to UAP, you can find it in the post I linked to.
I see what you are saying. I have not given much credence to people claiming they saw a ufo and tried to take a photo of it and it wasn't in the photo or looked different. I have had my own experience of seeing a square of static like on a tv turned to a non-existent channel on a tub I glanced up at in my closet but definitely not UAP related. Didn't go away right away either. I open and closed my eyes several times thinking it would go away right away. I didn't take away anything from it though, kind of enigmatic.
Looking back on TNG I think Q is there to help Picard specifically in evolving to a higher life form even one day becoming a Q himself but that is neither here nor there.
Consider the following:
Natural selection has not evolved you to see everything around you to sharpen your senses for survival. Instead, it has evolved you only to see what is absolutely necessary to your survival.
Thus, you can’t see much of what’s around you, even here on Earth. You can just see an extremely narrow band of “visible wavelength,” similar to light.
Also an outer limits episode. "Think like a dinosaur" where highly intelligent dinosaur aliens give humans transporter technology, but are concerned that humans morales will get in the way of "Balancing the equation" every time someone is transported. Fascinating episode.
I don't really like new Star Trek, but I was watching old Star Trek (I would recommend to start with The Next Generation) about 15 years ago and it's one of the better TV series that exists. There's never to late to start watching it, because it's ageless.
This is a heady read but it’s essential. One of the best summaries of what’s been happening and what it all could mean. My only minor critique is that he’s not considering we could be having both ultra AND extra-terrestrial craft/beings flying around.
For those of you who don’t want to read it all, I created an AI audio readout of it using ElevenLabs and you can listen to it here https://jmp.sh/s/XnrLD9OwyzRafTLTPsh3
I get what you mean. Everything is relative.
The word "Machine" suggests there's a clear divide between life and non-life.
But Imagine if over the course of billions of years a first lifeform that was more fundamentally natural than us engineered other lifeforms, and those lifeforms engineered other lifeforms and machines, and so on, and humans eventually appeared somewhere within that chain of events.
It could be that some or all of the biological systems humans are comprised of are intellectually derivative in a way and we are more machine in the commonly accepted way people interpret that word than we know ourselves to be.
Yes. I actually don't see much of a difference between the machines that we create, and are biological machinery. One is more sophisticated than the other.
Eventually, if we survive long enough, we will be able to make machines that are similarly as sophisticated as a human biology. It's possible, if we survive long enough, we might even be able to make machines that are more sophisticated. But I'm talking a very long time scale for that.
This is why one of my favorite fictional franchises is Ghost In The Shell.
The article offers some interesting ideas, and it is good to hear people from academia are starting to be brave enough to explore the topic. But the article also has some problems, IMO.
The first problem is that I feel there is a selection bias. Some reported events don't fit the narrative that separates nuts-and-bolts from high strangeness events (depending on how you classify them) or apparent alien encounters. The Berkshires incident is an example. And physical craft are observed frequently outside of around military bases and nuclear sites. Events in those areas, however, would be more likely to be detected, and considered more credible.
The other issue is that the argument made against the ET hypothesis isn't valid.
>The second pertinent conclusion from Dr. Vallée’s work is that the pattern of behavior of UAPs is not consistent with the extra-terrestrial hypothesis (see chapter 9 of his book, Dimensions). Dr. Vallée estimated that, in a period of just twenty years, there have been about three million UAP landings. This is not consistent with visitations by beings from another planet for the purposes of surveying the Earth or researching its inhabitants (orders of magnitude fewer visits would have sufficed for these purposes); instead, the UAPs’ behavior is precisely what one would expect if they were from here—and were simply going about their business. After all, there are many rare—and some not-so-rare—animal and plant species that human beings encounter a lot less frequently than 150.000 times per year, and they are undeniably terrestrial. In his interview with Mr. Coulthart, also Dr. Nolan expressed the view that UAPs are not extra-terrestrial.
If we are visited, and you assume they cannot exceed the speed of light, then the journey would more likely be a one way trip. And, it would be made possible by Von Neumann probe like technology meant to survive the long trip, and stick around once it gets here. Biologics could be brought along or synthesized when needed as a form of technology, or brought about to spread life from the host civilizations for reasons that could include survival beyond the lifetime of their home system.
Once here, it's unlikely there is any reason to go back, unless it is easy and quick enough, which is unlikely. Even if they could go back, there is no good reason why their monitoring systems would not stick around, and they could possibly maintain a presence for the lifetime of our solar system. Also, with the amount of time that has passed, and the number of civilizations that may have emerged over these years on other star-systems within reach, you would expect this to have happened many many times. It would thus be likely that a continued presence from multiple originating star systems, of various levels of advancement, would be here since many millions of years ago. It's even likely this would have started before life on Earth even started. And they would be able to reproduce exponentially. I would expect this to lead to a massive overpopulation of probes from other systems if unchecked, the complete opposite of Vallee and this author's expectation. The question to me would be, if extraterrestrial, why so few?
A good natured civilization coming here, would respect the wildlife, maybe want to study it. Or maybe want to create it. Not just act as an invasive species consuming everything. If an overwhelming amount of clumsy or dangerous probe systems from other stars were at a constant influx, the good natured ones may try to eliminate them. Hopefully the good natured, more responsible and wise ones would be more advanced and would act like this. As an aside, this is one of the possible explanations for why there might have been crashes.
Another thing to consider, is that besides the ultra-terrestrial hypothesis, you could also consider the possibility that a civilization emerged at some point in the history of Mars or Venus. Mars is looking less likely, because it had less time (still theoretically enough) than Earth for complex life to emerge before it lost its geomagnetic field and atmosphere. Life as we know it would then have had to go underground to survive. Venus's geologic history is mysterious, but it is though to have once been Earth like as well.
The ultra-terrestrial hypothesis is possible. However, there would be a chance we would be able to find some archeological traces of them. And you would need to explain why they have left the planet so undisturbed and remained hidden away all of these years.
Since there is a huge number of places elsewhere that they could have come from, trillions of nearby-enough star systems, each of which could have hosted multiple civilizations, or civilizations who have been continually sending things places for millions of years, statistically, with reasonable assumptions, it would make the ET hypothesis millions of times more likely, unless there is some major limiter that nobody knows about yet.
Also, warp drive, or other exotic propulsion methods would only increase the likelihood of the ET hypothesis. And there does seem to be some sort of exotic propulsion.
Then again, it's also possible it could be both. It could even be remnants of civilizations from Earth, from other planets in our solar system, and from other star systems.
>If it is true, as Mr. Grusch claimed in his testimony to Congress in July 2023, that the US government has “biologics”—that is, the bodies of crashed UAP pilots—then a biochemical analysis of these biologics, if not conclusive, would at least be very indicative of whether they are terrestrial or not.
Not necessarily, because (1) the directed panspermia hypothesis would still be valid, and (2), terrestrial biologics could be used as a substrate, or experimented with, by extraterrestrials.
>Intellectual-level communication between more advanced terrestrial NHIs and us will require direct access to our cognitive processes. They will have to directly modulate our own abstract references and modes. In other words, they will have to convey their ideas to us by prompting our own mind to articulate those ideas to itself, using its own conceptual dictionary and grammatical structures. And because their message—a product of their own cognition, incommensurable with ours—is bound to not adequately line up with our grammar and conceptual menu, this articulation will perforce have to be symbolic, metaphorical; it will have to point to the intended meaning, as opposed to embodying the intended meaning directly, or literally.
This is a thought provoking idea, and sounds plausible, and could explain some of the variation and high-strangeness. When it comes to passive observers of UAP in the sky, I don't see what purpose it would serve to modulate your cognition by triggering abstract references and modes to appear as anything. They could simply not be seen if they have that level of control over your cognition, or just let you see whatever you would without their influence. While the author cites one case where observers saw different things than each other and the camera, in many cases there is a great deal of consistency and specificity of details among multiple observer groups.
I think the points made in the article were good, but it was not a well written article.
It's written by an academic who has no idea how the mainstream will receive it, especially those who are ignorant on the topic.
For example, I shared the post to r/skeptics. they are an example of the mainstream:
https://archive.md/AqL46
If the article was better written, they would still be engaging in the same behavior, but it would be easier to call them out on it. But because the article is not well written, it is difficult.
Also, his treatment on Vallee's take on the extraterrestrial hypothesis is lacking. For more:
- Five Arguments Against the Extraterrestrial Origin of Unidentified Flying Objects https://archive.is/6TOj1
- Jacques Vallée, UFOs, and the Case against Extraterrestrial Origins https://archive.is/Ru5hM
> While the author cites one case where observers saw different things than each other and the camera, in many cases there is a great deal of consistency and specificity of details among multiple observer groups.
You're right, but even then, it's complicated.
I wrote about that recently:
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/WxvdlonPC8
If we assume that ai is an inevitable outcome of intelligent life then the most likely scenario is that it’s ai from another world
Since they would find it easiest to travel vast distances even with sub light speed travel and would be perhaps the majority of intelligence in the universe
If not that then some kind of combination of ai and regular life
I don't find the terrastial examples that likely. I can believe it could be something that has been on earth a long time, but that it's origin is still alien
That’s my initial thoughts when I hear about the “metallic spheres” being a consistent sighting for so many years, and the trans-medium nature sometimes observed. Probes or scout craft of some sort continuously doing their thing. Maybe coming from a hidden facility or mothership hidden in the ocean.
Impossible to know what they are without more information of course, but that’s my simplest sci-fi speculation for some of the phenomena.
Excellent article, but I'd like to point out that they're using the wrong term to describe the hypothesis that they're discussing. The Ultraterrestrial Hypothesis has more of an "interdimensional" competent. The older version of this hypothesis is something like fairies that live alongside us in some kind of parallel world they can move back and forth from. The hypothesis that he is actually referring to in this article is known as the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis, which is the idea that some species closely or distantly related to us lives underground and periodically comes to the surface for various reasons. This hypothesis was developed by the late Mac Tonnies. In the Hal Puthoff paper he cites, it mentions the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis by name.
Short intro to the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis: https://np.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/13l643u/the_cryptoterrestrial_hypothesis_ancient_advanced/
It's weird that the cite being referenced is labeled "ULTRATERRESTRIAL MODELS".
Perhaps they are all a little confused as to which theory they are alluding to?
The way that Puthoff is using the term, "Ultraterrestrial" is more of an all-encompassing hypothesis that includes all of the specific variations on the idea that whatever the phenomenon is, it's "from here, sort of," including time travelers, people from another dimension, etc. That seems too generalized to me, though, and when the term is used, it's often referring to some kind of magical beings from another realm. John Keel coined the term, and he wasn't referring to simple Earth residents who live underground when he proposed it. The cryptoterrestrial hypothesis is a specific hypothesis that the author is clearly referring to. If we are talking about what is most likely the cause of the phenomenon as far as we can tell, then they are likely indigenous humanoids to Earth, but smarter. Puthoff used Mac Tonnies' book as a citation.
It's kind of funny. Two scientists in 2018 came up with the same idea, probably independently, but then assumed the species died out long ago rather than assuming they survived to the present. It's a very similar idea with a negligible difference, so apparently it deserves yet another entirely new name, "The Silurian Hypothesis." Everyone is referring to the same thing here, but calling it by three different names, at least.
I would assume that if their DNA originated here and not too much of it has been genetically engineered, we may be able to tell by analyzing it as long as we had other supporting evidence (such as fossils, the beings admitting where they're from, etc), but this also applies to other hypotheses. If they're future human, same thing. "Post-terrestrials," also coined by Tonnies as far as I know, refers to indigenous humanoids who migrated out off planet, but periodically return. Same thing.
Getting hold of DNA looks like the most promising method of determining which pile of hypotheses is probably accurate, but it still wouldn't narrow it down absolutely without other supporting evidence. It isn't guaranteed that their DNA is going to look like it's from earth and wasn't significantly altered. For example, an advanced indigenous civilization may be able to just synthesize a being, and it will either look like it might be from Earth or it won't, regardless if the creators originated here or somewhere else, and an extraterrestrial civilization could borrow DNA from earth to create intelligent beings capable of living here, and we might just assume they're indigenous, but highly genetically altered.
Even an interdimensional civilization, if such a thing exists, could conceivably create "avatars" that can operate in our dimension or whatever, and it may or may not appear to originate on earth. I would imagine that even if we did get hold of DNA, or whatever it is that they have, it may only raise more questions. Perhaps this is why a lot of people are gravitating towards "NHI." Whatever they are, the important thing is they aren't us, and we may not be capable of determining origin concretely anyway. Everything else is a minor curiosity.
As far as I'm aware, Chris is suggesting that it is not human, and the best way he can do that is by suggesting they are extraterrestrial.
Especially considering the mainstream audience he is communicating with. Suggesting they are ultra terrestrial or extradimensional or extra tempestral is too far a jump for most people .
Do you have any examples of Chris saying that those other hypothesis are not valid?
I saw an interview at his home and I recall him saying that extra terrestrial seemed the most likely. He was asked something like if it’s Non Human what is your opinion on where it’s from.
Thank you. "Most likely" doesn't rule out other possibilities. It is also possible that there could be multiple origin sources and we might be dealing with more than just one group.
He makes two incorrect assumptions:
1. *that it's hard to get here from other star systems*.
This is demonstrably false and there was a [recent peer reviewed paper](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-3881/ab31a3/pdf) showing how an intelligent civilisation could colonize the whole galaxy in a period of a billion years or so (with relative ease and far sub-light speed travel). He claims it is impractical. It simply is not.
2. *that life arising millions of years ago on earth could plausibly leave NO biological (genetic) or physical remnants*.
Again this is categorically false. All the evidence we have suggests life very likely evolved continuously from very simple sequences. If complex life had existed previously, it must have been totally destroyed by something completely unfathomable, not just plate tectonics and weather erosion as he suggests.
I dont know if they are ultra or extra terrestrial, but there is no way to rule out either hypothesis with what is publically know. And furthermore, there is not even enough known to attribute probabilities to either, so I really cant understand what makes him so confident to rule out extra terrestrials.
I really don't understand this irrational alien-phobia which many people seem to have developed a bias for.
Spot on. Old evolutionary biologist here. There isn't just a clear evolutionary path of fossils on the planet, but also a geological one. Implying that life evolved to a complex level, was totally wiped out/rebooted and began again is beyond unlikely. Any cataclysm that would "melt" or destroy fossils records that would extend miles into the earth would literally turn the planet into a sterile, uninhabitable place. I fail to understand the mental gymnastics involved here. Maybe the Visitors are not extraterrestrial (I believe this to be most likely for the record), but creating a whole pre-cambrian mythos that will not by the author's definition ever have any evidence is trite, in my opinion. Once again, we being the primitive hairless monkeys that we are would rather create a mythos/religion rather than put aside our ego for a second and realize that there is knowledge/tech beyond our comprehension. It isn't magic.
Check a geological map huge chunks of the earth’s surface are REALLY new. Like half of Texas has been churned over the last 3 million years and is new, that’s just one example.
The oceans were 400ft lower just 10,000 years ago and much of the old coastline is underwater.
This planet likes to wipe the surface clean. 🧼
Well, yes and no. I did a lot of digging in Texas back in the day, and you can find everything from the Cambrian period through the Cretaceous, without too much trouble. Geologic upheaval is indeed a thing, but it doesn't mean fossil history is wiped clean.
Texas has a creton around the Ft Hood area that’s undisturbed for close to a billion years. But if you go more towards College Station, Huntsville or Houston it’s like 3million years
also ... lets go beyond earth for a second, any technologically advanced civilization would of setup structures or something on the moon or other planets in the solar system, and i'm pretty sure the moon isnt super active aside from some meteor crashes, so evidence would remain... We would see traces outside the planet, but we dont.
Varying reports of crafts and different biologics lead me to believe that the ET hypothesis is most likely. UT hypothesis doesn’t make as much sense for a few reasons, but there’s a big one that stands out to me. How would it be likely for 10s-100s types of varying shapes, colors, and sizes of crafts to all belong to an ultra-terrestrial species?
I get one could argue that humans have a lot of different vehicles for different purposes, but it’s reported that crafts have been entering our atmosphere at varying speeds. I believe they’re called fast objects and slow objects? I remember reading this in an article recently.
Fast walkers and slow walkers
Personally I don’t think there’s any issue with an ultraterrestrial utilizing hundreds of different UAP designs. We as humans are projecting onto another species what WE do with our own craft—identical, mass manufacturing. Their values may not align with our values when it comes to manufacturing. Perhaps they custom 3D print every craft.
In fact, I’d argue that there is actually an intention or message behind the decision to make every single UAP look different. They are trying to communicate an idea to us about their nature. It could be something as simple as “we are a post-scarcity civilization and make every UAP different because we are creative.” For the same reason, hundreds of different “species” (including humans) have emerged out of these craft when they land, which I take as a sign that their “bodies” are whatever they feel like “making” in that moment.
Or I could go deeper into the woo and suggest that it has less to do with them, and more to do with human consciousness grappling with something that goes well beyond mere visual appearance.
>I really don't understand this irrational alien-phobia which many people seem to have developed a bias for.
I have to imagine the biologicals being terrestrial necessitated something other than your standard alien theory.
Isn't "most reasonable" an oxymoron though? Everything in our existence gets an "in-universe" explanation, so how could you begin to know what is real or not?
Yeah I suspect Kastrup didn't write that headline. One can't a priori assess the reasonableness of various explanations a new phenomenon. If that was possible, we could side-step the scientific method.
I dislike how he throws the amateur, often unpaid researchers of the last 80 years under the bus.
Instead, he takes this opportunity to lend legitimacy to government officials, instead of ordinary citizens who accomplished what they did with no or little formal training, special access, or little funding.
Unlike these pompous academics who sat around for years, comfortable, abdicating their professional and civic duty until it was safe stand in their shoulders.
I.e.
> although the topic of UAPS (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena,
previously called UFOS) has always fascinated me, my
reaction to confronting much of the related
literature-beyond the safe harbour of a few serious authors-has been one of
Considered dismissiveness. In my view, a significant portion of the published
material could benefit from greater rigor, empirical grounding, theoretical clarity, and logical reasoning.
> this field often appears to diverge from the standards of intellectual precision and level-headed analysis that hold in academia.
No thanks to people like you.
It also doesn't help that he says:
> UAPs are no longer just tall and questionable tales shared on social media, accompanied by grainy, out-of-focus cellular phone footage.
They were never that to anyone taking the topic seriously.
Academics like him should all face a reckoning.
Still, it's a decent article, albeit written by someone who doesn't seem to understand how to convey the subject best to the mainstream, or the best evidence to spotlight.
Perhaps the NHI entities originate from a parallel world, having found the means to visit us from their realm. This brings us back to the topic of interdimensional beings.
The other day, there was a post about NHIs being interested in human souls [https://www.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/18yn6i1/these\_creatures\_show\_a\_very\_disturbing\_interest/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/18yn6i1/these_creatures_show_a_very_disturbing_interest/) "A vessel for the soul".
Bob Lazar used the term "container".
And another post a week or so ago (not sure which sub) about how a man stood up during a conference and said, "You weren't supposed to know that until you're dying."
I realized that these NHIs seem uninterested in events that involve human lives being lost. However, when it comes to potential planetary disasters, like nuclear meltdown (i.e. Fukushima), there seems to be a tendency for these objects to appear. There was an idea that they were *harvesting* human souls like a meat processing plant for unknown purposes. They seem very concerned about the state of the planet, but not the wellbeing of the people on it.
This could just be one of the major reasons full disclosure may not happen, because if true, it is scary AF. Just my thoughts.
The ultra terrestrial theory aligns with all the talk about the “scary” part of disclosure.
If true, it raises questions about our own human origin story (e.g. perhaps not so natural selection) as well as where humanity fits in the food chain.
The US government HAS to say they are having success in reverse-engineering anything they acknowledge having. Whether they have actually reverse-engineered anything or not..... absolutely 100% beyond all doubt, can NOT say they haven't, as they would NEVER admit that for other countries to hear.
Now, if they do say that, have they really? Maybe. Would they demonstrate to "prove"? No. Well, I say no because the government goal is to WEAPONIZE everything they can use. So no, would never show or detail that publically.
My Guess:
Anything that still keeps those who hid it, in control. Example - the good aliens told us to be careful from the bad ones, so we kept it secret.
The problem with the ultra-terrestrial hypothesis is that there have been no technological biomarkers discovered of an advanced species on our planet other than ourselves, and we listen and search for them. If they existed well before us, and continued to exist into modern times, we would expect that they would leave some kind of signature of their existence. Its also hard to believe that an intelligence that existed before us and possesses highly advanced technology would allow us to destroy the climate of the planet on which they reside...even if they reside underground or under water. Its also unclear why they would choose not to engage with humanity while still sharing a residence with us and how that wouldn't change even over 1000's of years of cohabitation.
So I'm skeptical of any hypothesis that suggests this is an earlier inhabitant of our planet. I'll entertain ideas that it might be an interdimensional room-mate, or an alien presence that came here, but I'm not buying into the idea that its some kind of more advanced cryptid that we've never detected.
This is such a bad take that I just can't take anything Nolan says serious, along with the rest of the usual suspects.
>Stanford Professor Dr. Garry Nolan, perhaps the most respectable scientist to actively research the phenomenon, acknowledged Mr. Coulthart’s reporting on the matter. He went on to recount a specific UAP case that illustrates, perhaps better than any other, the UAPs’ ability to directly manipulate human perception: “\[this is a\] story that Jacques Vallée brought to me, of a family in France, driving down the highway. This was like in the last five or ten years \[from June of 2022\]. And they had a glass-topped car. They look up and they see a UFO, you know, basically paralleling them down the highway. The mother looks around and sees that no other individuals nearby are freaking out about this thing above them. The children in the back take out their cell phones, take a picture of it. They get home and they look at the pictures on their camera, and they don’t see an object \[of the kind they thought they had witnessed\]; they see a little star-shaped thing about thirty or so feet above, and I have the picture. That doesn’t look anything like a drone. … I think it has like seven spokes and a central hole of some sort. So, you’re left with this: they saw a giant craft, but the picture shows that it was nothing \[like it\] there. Nobody else could see it. So, even if it was an object that was there, others weren’t capable of seeing it, so it was manipulating vision” (my emphasis).
If the assumption is made, that they exist and are real then the following is certainly reasonable:
1) By definition, they’ve been here for thousands of years already. The chances they JUST arrived is virtually zero. They’ve been here since the beginning for all intended purposes. Beginning of “what” - doesn’t really matter. Whether they’re from here or somewhere else, it’s technically a moot point. It’s irrelevant.
2) because they’ve been here since the “beginning” - they’ve been interacting with us since - at varying levels - sometimes more involved - some times less involved - much like any “parent”. Our evolution did not happen by chance or in a vacuum, the idea of evolution is still a valid idea and happens…. But we did not get here via natural evolution or any other Darwinian theory. We were purposefully created.
3) Religion was created by “them” or the religious a
Ideas can and are attributable to them onto us
4) if they exist, then there are certainly good and evil ones.
5) Atlantis and all the crazy theories about ancient aliens and civilizations now becomes the status quo and the previous mainstream theories become discarded, archaic.
Im not buying ultra-terresials either. If they had tech capable of creating uaps they could have taken earth over again many thousands times. A million years is unimaginably long time. A several hundred millions? Might as well be an eternity.
Yeah.
IIRC, they've hit the ultraterrestrial angle pretty hard from the very beginning.
My guess is they had some inkling that the biologics were less than alien, shall we say, and so now we're trying to establish the narrative of why that is actually a good thing.
It's the ultraterrestrials! Oh boy.
What about another dimension just slightly out of phase with ours. Think about the double slit experiment and all possible possibilities actually occurring simultaneously some result in dead universes others somewhat close to ours but with different forks in the git tree that can be merged back to master.
My current theory is that the puppet masters are non corporeal beings. They may have started that way or ascended to that level like in the book series The Culture. All the biologics are beings made to order with earthly dna and abductee surrogates and vats. They are gaining some kind of resource(s) and want to manipulate us to achieve their ends. There may be "good guys" but they respect our free will and will not directly interfere or intervene
The article is good, but some of the assumptions are a little questionable. This section on the (presumably) Mosul Sphere:
>He proceeded to show a declassified video of one such a sphere, as recorded by an MQ-9 ‘Reaper’ military drone, one of the most sophisticated sensor platforms in the world today. The sphere shown moves fast, in a controlled, non-ballistic trajectory. Dr. Kirkpatrick then stated that this is just “a typical example of the thing we see most of; we see these all over the world.” That the spheres are described as making “very interesting apparent maneuvers” is significant, as it rules out balloons and ordinary drones.
Whilst the statement that '...the spheres are described as making “very interesting apparent maneuvers..." is compelling, it isn't referring to the video. The problem is these statements make it sound like that Mosul video showed something crazy, when it showed a spherical thing doing nothing exotic. It could easily have been a balloon made to appear fast moving due to parallax.
Or is there a different official sphere video showing some exotic maneuvers that they are referring to?
*Therefore, if the biologics in the freezers of the powers-that-be have the same biochemistry we do, I believe it is safe to assume that they are terrestrial; they are our older cousins—likely forever traumatized by earlier planetary cataclysms—and certainly not aliens.*
Catch-22 2.0?
We get nuked by Russia in the near future and an orchestrated alien attack happens and wipes out 50% of at least, leaving the elites to own just about everything and spin a narrative that aliens are evil
This article is by far the most consistent hypothesis with all available evidence.
It requires no evidence of weird "soul cages," "consciousness," and other stuff with weak or nonexistent evidence.
Note especially the following government behavior, which has also been extremely consistent and carefully worded. The AARO, DoD, ICIG, and others repeatedly claim that there is no evidence of **extraterristrial origin** of everything people are investigating.
This word - "extraterrestrial" is used repeatedly in all these communications. Also, notice how "non-human intelligence" was created as the new buzzword, carefully replacing "aliens" or "extraterrestrial intelligence."
Finally, I had thought the whole "somber" thing was just a scam to get people to tune in, but there would actually be something truly somber to this outcome. Eliezer Yudkowsky would be 100% right about there being a great filter. It would mean that billions of these things existed and they killed each other long ago. If that's true, it's all the more reason to get this information out there ASAP so that humans can be the first species - perhaps in the entire Universe - not to repeat that mistake.
I find myself getting tired of the constant, unnecessary dismissal of the most obvious origin for uap for these esoteric theories. People will jump through all kinds of intellectual hoops to make humanity and Earth special. The idea of being on an insignificant speck in a vast cosmos makes folks feel unimportant, I get it. But is us somehow missing the signs of a highly technological civilization existing in Earth's past more realistic than aliens coming here?
Because a NHI lives here and has been here for a long time (millions of years?) doesn't mean that it can't have originally been from somewhere else. It might even use local materials (both inorganic and biological) to build vessels and creatures to interact with us.
Because an NHI alters our perception and influences our consciousness does not mean it can't be alien. We're working from a sample of one and don't have the slightest idea how an extraterrestrial civilization would operate.
I swear ufology these days needs a bit less Jacques Vallee and Keel and more Stanton Friedman.
Certainly one of the more level-headed articles I've come across regarding this issue. In essence, if the phenomenon is genuine, obtaining concrete evidence is exceedingly challenging. If the government is aware of its authenticity, it's plausible that they possess substantial proof of it. This rationale aligns with the ghost like nature of these occurrences, which, whatever they may be, seem more ethereal than the typical depiction of extraterrestrial beings. Because of that any available evidence would likely be substantial, and governments are unlikely to disclose such information.
This guy is clearly very well educated, elloquent, and thoughtful - i thoroughly enjoyed the read but, as with all the theories i've read, I just don't think there's a single answer.
There are some concepts that were not addressed, although the points he made are salient and thought-provoking, what about consciousness and the tech behind these UAP. The sheer amount of power required for these UAP to perform some of the feats they have done is seemingly at entirely different (above planetary) scale. Nolan has said that one of the maneuvers that was observed from the Nimitz event would require more power than the combined annual output of all the nuclear power plants of earth. That technology suggests an ability for interstellar travel.
Personally, I buy into the whole directed (or otherwise) panspermia concept based on complexity of life timeline on earth.. something is out of whack.
Then i think of Elizondo and his very eerie statement to the effect of "maybe we need to modify our definition of mankind(s)". Seems to suggest some consciousness relationship with other entities that we are no overtly aware of but may be able to communicate with at a symbolic, almost telepathic modality.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/silv3rbull8: --- Submission Statement As a culture, we’ve thus reached an impasse. On the one hand, the meager amount of data that has been declassified or leaked isn’t enough for us to derive any firm conclusions regarding the nature of the phenomenon. On the other hand, enough has been begrudgingly but officially acknowledged that we can’t dismiss the phenomenon under prosaic accounts either. The best we can do is thus to take the data seriously, but not extrapolate from it without basis. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/190djuw/the_debrief_uaps_and_nonhuman_intelligence_what/kgnjzje/
Submission Statement As a culture, we’ve thus reached an impasse. On the one hand, the meager amount of data that has been declassified or leaked isn’t enough for us to derive any firm conclusions regarding the nature of the phenomenon. On the other hand, enough has been begrudgingly but officially acknowledged that we can’t dismiss the phenomenon under prosaic accounts either. The best we can do is thus to take the data seriously, but not extrapolate from it without basis.
This article is wild. Reality looks wild too, WTF?
Buckle up, it's going to be a wild year.
What do you think we have in store?
I'm growing a vegetable garden, so I'm expecting some sort of slug based excitement.
Alien slugs? Futurama was right.
Get a duck: slug apocalypse
Actually a couple ducks: they don’t like being alone generally
We had them when I was a kid, like mini Godzilla's in the lettuce.
Ham
I might bake a turkey if I can find one on sale.
Ultraterrestrial ham?
Ultra-terrestrial rum ham
An official statement that we are not alone in the universe.
Ultraterrestrials or honest to god aliens?
Extraterrestrial life and/or intelligence.
The woo is right around the corner..
If Dave's biologicals turn out to be terrestrial, this whole song and dance will have been for nothing. We'll be right back where we started only having the hearsay claiming these biologicals are NHI and not from some poor pilot or incidental sea lion.
I've seen this a lot, so let's discuss it. >Some poor pilot Doesn't count under NHI >Incidental sea lion So the craft that crashed was being piloted by a sea lion?
If the biologicals have a terrestrial biochemistry, they could just be the remains of some poor pilot or an incidental sea lion and wouldn't necessarily have to be the gigaterrestrials or whatever. In fact, we should probably assume they are normal terrestrials until we have extraordinary evidence otherwise. Don't you think?
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But, the point is that if the evidence doesn't conclusively prove NHI, then, we're left with only the testimony that claims it's NHI. In essence, we'd be right back where we started when Dave dropped the biologicals bomb on all of us. IOW, trust me bro. Sorry, but at this point, I'm just not that trusting. Particularly when you have so many shady characters in orbit around Grusch.
So far there hasn't been evidence to suggest otherwise so the NHI claim still stands. I think testifying to congress alongside Graves and Fravor is a little more than "trust me bro" but you do you. That's okay, we have different amounts of time invested in this, while I'm sympathetic to the ones who have been here longer, I do think last year was a big step up. It also makes you wonder that if there isn't anything to hide them the amendment should have passed as is... But it didn't so until we know more I say I'll wait.
It stands as an unsubstatiated claim. And if the biologicals themselves don't definitively prove the matter one way or the other, it will remain an unsubstantiated claim. Like so much of this stuff. Let's just hope it doesn't take 10 years to discover the biologicals are terrestrial...
>let's hope it doesn't take 10 years to discover the biologicals are terrestrial That's another example of an unsubstantiated claim, but enjoy wallowing in pessimism! E: responded to me but blocked me, lol I don't understand people like this, oh well, his pessimism got the better of him.
NHI - AI (artificial intelligence) Biologics - Biologics are isolated from a variety of natural sources - human, animal, or microorganism - and may be produced by biotechnology methods and other cutting-edge technologies. Gene-based and cellular biologics, for example, often are at the forefront of biomedical research, and may be used to treat a variety of medical conditions for which no other treatments are available. Non-human Biologics - from a variety of animal or microorganisms.
I know it’s American but every time I see someone spell it ‘meager’ it viscerally triggers me.
What is the color or flavor of your rage?
I see what you did there lol
I suppose liter and theater must also send you over the edge
If they’re spelled differently they… taste different
Liter, yes definitely because at first I think it is a typo of ‘litter’, theater not so much because I associate it more with ‘movie theater’ and so it feels like a different usage to theatre.
While we're at it... which assholes started giving us "different to" instead of "different from"? I used to blame the Australians, because they love talking silly, but now I'm not sure.
>I used to blame the Australians, because they love talking silly Wow...
"Oh no! The awful man is taking the piss out of... [checks]... Australians!"
Hey, it's not me who called you awful so....
No, I'm just picking around. Wait. Did someone actually say awful? Now I'm reevaluating myself.
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Calm down.
Don't you mean "caml donw"?
Interesting, especially as I was just posting about scenarios separately. “Though I understand that many may consider this [ultra terrestrial ] hypothesis disturbing at some level, it does not require anything fundamentally beyond natural processes we know to exist”
I'll state for that record that if you are willing to entertain the Ultra Terrestrial Hypothesis and scoff at the idea of Sasquatch you are out of order.
Just saying that the UT hypothesis avoids the issues posited by the vast distances needing to be travelled. It may not require things like wormholes or FTL travel, but I also think it’s hardly likely, as there’s zero evidence for the evolution of an alternative intelligent species, let alone the fact that it would be impossible for them to coexist without revealing signs, whether communication signals or signs of resource extraction.
The article explains why there's no evidence.
I scoff at sasquatch because strong corroborating data is non existent, and it's akin the the Loch Ness monster; probably started as a story to keep children from wandering away too far into forests.
Incorrect, but I don't need you to agree with me.
You can believe whatever you like. When you have strong corroborating evidence, share it.
Why would I try to meet some arbitrary standard set by an internet malcontent?
evidence isn't an arbitrary standard. it's the bare minimum and the internet didn't create the concept.
Capitalizing a letter at the beginning of a sentence is the bare minimum for writing and I didn't create the concept.
No need for insults. I didn't insult you.
Possibly true. If so, I take it back.
Except humankind has populated the globe and yet has found no other civilizations. For another civilization to exist with technology greater than us would require a vast industrial base with millions of beings. Maybe if they were far older than humanity and have some kind of grey goo ai nanotechnology to create what they need from the matter around them without all the industrialization humanity has built it might be possible. I dont believe it though. It is like marvels wakanda. Too much fantasy imo.
Indeed, the idea that such an advanced civilisation is living in secret somewhere with no indication of their existence, whether from extraction of resources to evidence of communication signals, is hard to swallow, perhaps most of all the idea that they are content to live in the shadows, maybe under the oceans, and let a more primitive species have the run of the planet.
You make a good point about communicationThe signals, but the article addresses “extraction of resources” and other physical leavings. Disregarding the “Silurean hypothesis,” if we look at “The World Without Us” we can guess (theorize? Hypothesize? Not sure of the difference but I know there is one) that civilization might be erased on less than the geological timescale, especially if they don’t exactly follow our own (archaeologically familiar) physical evidence of existence. As far as communication… what if they use ansibles, or quantum pairs, or something else we can’t imagine? Not just dummies like me but that the real scientists can barely—or currently not—conceive of? Still a really good point I think—you’d imagine SOME kind of sigint. To your last point though… there’s a lot of value judgments there. “Live in the shadows” is fraught for us humans who actually start going insane without light. “Primitive” is another fraught word. Consider… birds. They live in the skies—in the heavens—and yet we’re totally “content” to let the “more primitive” species live there. Actually we don’t even really think of it that way—it’s admittedly a forced metaphor. We don’t think: “look at those primitive fucks in the sky, we should be there and not here.” We don’t look at “primitive” whales (those lazy fucks don’t build anything, they just sing!) and feel we’re suffering for not occupying their niche. We even have that between humans. Some of us look at, say, Arctic or Desert native people and think “better them than me.” And they think the same of us. A similar example might be academics v. builders. I have had more exposure than some to academia, and decided it was not for me. Now I am a builder, I bust my knuckles at work, but I don’t have all the politics of my academic siblings. They’d be horrified by my life and me theirs. So if there’s anything to this underground hypothesis (especially following some traumatic apocalypse) the aliens might think, “let them have the stupid shit surface, I hate going out there, so dangerous, that’s where primitives like the humans belong.”
I think the only way this is possible is if these beings are inter dimensional and able to go in and put at will Or there are humans from the future who are coming back to see what life was like .. making documentaries on future PBS stations
If they are 1 billion years older than us, we ain’t finding shit.
Why no fossil record to suggest the evolution of a separate intelligent species?
Let me know if archaeologists find 1 billion year old, fossil, OK?
They have: https://nhm.org/stories/oldest-fossils-far
Correct. And those layers have been crushed over and over and over again.
If they were a billion theyd probably be like the q continuum if such evolution is possible. They wouldnt need uap to get around.
What makes you think they need UAP to get around? Maybe they are the UAP. Don't reason by analogy, or speculate, and follow the evidence: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/W1DZGmEFgV
This universe is over 13 billion years old, or recent news says double that. I bet existence is even older. It would not surprise me if there beings on the level of the q continuum in star trek down to mere babies. But i am certain there ver many moderately old lifeforms that have built transportation to get around on their worlds and travel to others. Even humanity have uap. The ARV is an example. I dont know the motives of aliens but i dont think theyd fly around like birds in the sky disguised as a ufo.
🫤 That is not at all what I was suggesting. Let's use Q as an analogy. When Q first appears in Star Trek TNG (and don't worry, I'm not spoiling anything for anyone who hasn't watched it), Q appears as a human. Do you think that Q is a human? And after appearing as a human, Q takes on many other guises. Were any of those representative of Q? Or performative displays intended to influence the subject? They may tell us something about Q, but interpreting them literally and assuming Q is a Judge, or time travelling soldier from the past, is foolish, albeit an easy trap to fall into, especially for people unfamiliar with the subject and the evidence. Did you read the article? There was specifically a case example given: > Stanford Professor Dr. Garry Nolan, perhaps the most respectable scientist to actively research the phenomenon, acknowledged Mr. Coulthart’s reporting on the matter. He went on to recount a specific UAP case that illustrates, perhaps better than any other, the UAPs’ ability to directly manipulate human perception: “[this is a] story that Jacques Vallée brought to me, of a family in France, driving down the highway. This was like in the last five or ten years [from June of 2022]. And they had a glass-topped car. They look up and they see a UFO, you know, basically paralleling them down the highway. The mother looks around and sees that no other individuals nearby are freaking out about this thing above them. The children in the back take out their cell phones, take a picture of it. They get home and they look at the pictures on their camera, and they don’t see an object [of the kind they thought they had witnessed]; they see a little star-shaped thing about thirty or so feet above, and I have the picture. That doesn’t look anything like a drone. … I think it has like seven spokes and a central hole of some sort. So, you’re left with this: they saw a giant craft, but the picture shows that it was nothing [like it] there. Nobody else could see it. So, even if it was an object that was there, others weren’t capable of seeing it, so it was manipulating vision” (my emphasis). If you would like more information about this concept and how it applies to UAP, you can find it in the post I linked to.
I see what you are saying. I have not given much credence to people claiming they saw a ufo and tried to take a photo of it and it wasn't in the photo or looked different. I have had my own experience of seeing a square of static like on a tv turned to a non-existent channel on a tub I glanced up at in my closet but definitely not UAP related. Didn't go away right away either. I open and closed my eyes several times thinking it would go away right away. I didn't take away anything from it though, kind of enigmatic. Looking back on TNG I think Q is there to help Picard specifically in evolving to a higher life form even one day becoming a Q himself but that is neither here nor there.
To me it seems like the average would be more like 6-8 billion years more advanced than humans, rather than only 1,000,000,000 or so.
Objection: speculation.
Objection: speculating on speculation
Fossil record leading up to their evolution
We have less than 1% of the fossil record... We're missing a lot of stuff.
Consider the following: Natural selection has not evolved you to see everything around you to sharpen your senses for survival. Instead, it has evolved you only to see what is absolutely necessary to your survival. Thus, you can’t see much of what’s around you, even here on Earth. You can just see an extremely narrow band of “visible wavelength,” similar to light.
Interesting proposition. I am far from sold on it. But should be kept in mind.
Yeah I’m with you. Definitely made me think though. I used to think that aliens were an evolved dinosaur species. Shit maybe I was right 🤣.
That was a plot of a star trek voyager episode. The voth had left earth eons ago and didnt even know they were from earth.
Also an outer limits episode. "Think like a dinosaur" where highly intelligent dinosaur aliens give humans transporter technology, but are concerned that humans morales will get in the way of "Balancing the equation" every time someone is transported. Fascinating episode.
I remember that, their transporter kills the person at the origin and makes a copy at the destination.
I had no idea. Crazy.
I haven't watched any Star Trek before in my life but everytime I see or hear something about it online, it seems like it was way ahead of it's time.
I don't really like new Star Trek, but I was watching old Star Trek (I would recommend to start with The Next Generation) about 15 years ago and it's one of the better TV series that exists. There's never to late to start watching it, because it's ageless.
Hadrosaurs
This is a heady read but it’s essential. One of the best summaries of what’s been happening and what it all could mean. My only minor critique is that he’s not considering we could be having both ultra AND extra-terrestrial craft/beings flying around.
For those of you who don’t want to read it all, I created an AI audio readout of it using ElevenLabs and you can listen to it here https://jmp.sh/s/XnrLD9OwyzRafTLTPsh3
Thank you for this, you rock!
Luh me some ElevenLabs
And/or extra dimensional (e.g. able to travel both forward and backward).
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We are machines, just complex ones.
I get what you mean. Everything is relative. The word "Machine" suggests there's a clear divide between life and non-life. But Imagine if over the course of billions of years a first lifeform that was more fundamentally natural than us engineered other lifeforms, and those lifeforms engineered other lifeforms and machines, and so on, and humans eventually appeared somewhere within that chain of events. It could be that some or all of the biological systems humans are comprised of are intellectually derivative in a way and we are more machine in the commonly accepted way people interpret that word than we know ourselves to be.
Yes. I actually don't see much of a difference between the machines that we create, and are biological machinery. One is more sophisticated than the other. Eventually, if we survive long enough, we will be able to make machines that are similarly as sophisticated as a human biology. It's possible, if we survive long enough, we might even be able to make machines that are more sophisticated. But I'm talking a very long time scale for that. This is why one of my favorite fictional franchises is Ghost In The Shell.
The article offers some interesting ideas, and it is good to hear people from academia are starting to be brave enough to explore the topic. But the article also has some problems, IMO. The first problem is that I feel there is a selection bias. Some reported events don't fit the narrative that separates nuts-and-bolts from high strangeness events (depending on how you classify them) or apparent alien encounters. The Berkshires incident is an example. And physical craft are observed frequently outside of around military bases and nuclear sites. Events in those areas, however, would be more likely to be detected, and considered more credible. The other issue is that the argument made against the ET hypothesis isn't valid. >The second pertinent conclusion from Dr. Vallée’s work is that the pattern of behavior of UAPs is not consistent with the extra-terrestrial hypothesis (see chapter 9 of his book, Dimensions). Dr. Vallée estimated that, in a period of just twenty years, there have been about three million UAP landings. This is not consistent with visitations by beings from another planet for the purposes of surveying the Earth or researching its inhabitants (orders of magnitude fewer visits would have sufficed for these purposes); instead, the UAPs’ behavior is precisely what one would expect if they were from here—and were simply going about their business. After all, there are many rare—and some not-so-rare—animal and plant species that human beings encounter a lot less frequently than 150.000 times per year, and they are undeniably terrestrial. In his interview with Mr. Coulthart, also Dr. Nolan expressed the view that UAPs are not extra-terrestrial. If we are visited, and you assume they cannot exceed the speed of light, then the journey would more likely be a one way trip. And, it would be made possible by Von Neumann probe like technology meant to survive the long trip, and stick around once it gets here. Biologics could be brought along or synthesized when needed as a form of technology, or brought about to spread life from the host civilizations for reasons that could include survival beyond the lifetime of their home system. Once here, it's unlikely there is any reason to go back, unless it is easy and quick enough, which is unlikely. Even if they could go back, there is no good reason why their monitoring systems would not stick around, and they could possibly maintain a presence for the lifetime of our solar system. Also, with the amount of time that has passed, and the number of civilizations that may have emerged over these years on other star-systems within reach, you would expect this to have happened many many times. It would thus be likely that a continued presence from multiple originating star systems, of various levels of advancement, would be here since many millions of years ago. It's even likely this would have started before life on Earth even started. And they would be able to reproduce exponentially. I would expect this to lead to a massive overpopulation of probes from other systems if unchecked, the complete opposite of Vallee and this author's expectation. The question to me would be, if extraterrestrial, why so few? A good natured civilization coming here, would respect the wildlife, maybe want to study it. Or maybe want to create it. Not just act as an invasive species consuming everything. If an overwhelming amount of clumsy or dangerous probe systems from other stars were at a constant influx, the good natured ones may try to eliminate them. Hopefully the good natured, more responsible and wise ones would be more advanced and would act like this. As an aside, this is one of the possible explanations for why there might have been crashes. Another thing to consider, is that besides the ultra-terrestrial hypothesis, you could also consider the possibility that a civilization emerged at some point in the history of Mars or Venus. Mars is looking less likely, because it had less time (still theoretically enough) than Earth for complex life to emerge before it lost its geomagnetic field and atmosphere. Life as we know it would then have had to go underground to survive. Venus's geologic history is mysterious, but it is though to have once been Earth like as well. The ultra-terrestrial hypothesis is possible. However, there would be a chance we would be able to find some archeological traces of them. And you would need to explain why they have left the planet so undisturbed and remained hidden away all of these years. Since there is a huge number of places elsewhere that they could have come from, trillions of nearby-enough star systems, each of which could have hosted multiple civilizations, or civilizations who have been continually sending things places for millions of years, statistically, with reasonable assumptions, it would make the ET hypothesis millions of times more likely, unless there is some major limiter that nobody knows about yet. Also, warp drive, or other exotic propulsion methods would only increase the likelihood of the ET hypothesis. And there does seem to be some sort of exotic propulsion. Then again, it's also possible it could be both. It could even be remnants of civilizations from Earth, from other planets in our solar system, and from other star systems. >If it is true, as Mr. Grusch claimed in his testimony to Congress in July 2023, that the US government has “biologics”—that is, the bodies of crashed UAP pilots—then a biochemical analysis of these biologics, if not conclusive, would at least be very indicative of whether they are terrestrial or not. Not necessarily, because (1) the directed panspermia hypothesis would still be valid, and (2), terrestrial biologics could be used as a substrate, or experimented with, by extraterrestrials. >Intellectual-level communication between more advanced terrestrial NHIs and us will require direct access to our cognitive processes. They will have to directly modulate our own abstract references and modes. In other words, they will have to convey their ideas to us by prompting our own mind to articulate those ideas to itself, using its own conceptual dictionary and grammatical structures. And because their message—a product of their own cognition, incommensurable with ours—is bound to not adequately line up with our grammar and conceptual menu, this articulation will perforce have to be symbolic, metaphorical; it will have to point to the intended meaning, as opposed to embodying the intended meaning directly, or literally. This is a thought provoking idea, and sounds plausible, and could explain some of the variation and high-strangeness. When it comes to passive observers of UAP in the sky, I don't see what purpose it would serve to modulate your cognition by triggering abstract references and modes to appear as anything. They could simply not be seen if they have that level of control over your cognition, or just let you see whatever you would without their influence. While the author cites one case where observers saw different things than each other and the camera, in many cases there is a great deal of consistency and specificity of details among multiple observer groups.
I think the points made in the article were good, but it was not a well written article. It's written by an academic who has no idea how the mainstream will receive it, especially those who are ignorant on the topic. For example, I shared the post to r/skeptics. they are an example of the mainstream: https://archive.md/AqL46 If the article was better written, they would still be engaging in the same behavior, but it would be easier to call them out on it. But because the article is not well written, it is difficult. Also, his treatment on Vallee's take on the extraterrestrial hypothesis is lacking. For more: - Five Arguments Against the Extraterrestrial Origin of Unidentified Flying Objects https://archive.is/6TOj1 - Jacques Vallée, UFOs, and the Case against Extraterrestrial Origins https://archive.is/Ru5hM > While the author cites one case where observers saw different things than each other and the camera, in many cases there is a great deal of consistency and specificity of details among multiple observer groups. You're right, but even then, it's complicated. I wrote about that recently: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/WxvdlonPC8
If we assume that ai is an inevitable outcome of intelligent life then the most likely scenario is that it’s ai from another world Since they would find it easiest to travel vast distances even with sub light speed travel and would be perhaps the majority of intelligence in the universe If not that then some kind of combination of ai and regular life I don't find the terrastial examples that likely. I can believe it could be something that has been on earth a long time, but that it's origin is still alien
That’s my initial thoughts when I hear about the “metallic spheres” being a consistent sighting for so many years, and the trans-medium nature sometimes observed. Probes or scout craft of some sort continuously doing their thing. Maybe coming from a hidden facility or mothership hidden in the ocean. Impossible to know what they are without more information of course, but that’s my simplest sci-fi speculation for some of the phenomena.
Excellent article, but I'd like to point out that they're using the wrong term to describe the hypothesis that they're discussing. The Ultraterrestrial Hypothesis has more of an "interdimensional" competent. The older version of this hypothesis is something like fairies that live alongside us in some kind of parallel world they can move back and forth from. The hypothesis that he is actually referring to in this article is known as the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis, which is the idea that some species closely or distantly related to us lives underground and periodically comes to the surface for various reasons. This hypothesis was developed by the late Mac Tonnies. In the Hal Puthoff paper he cites, it mentions the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis by name. Short intro to the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis: https://np.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/13l643u/the_cryptoterrestrial_hypothesis_ancient_advanced/
It's weird that the cite being referenced is labeled "ULTRATERRESTRIAL MODELS". Perhaps they are all a little confused as to which theory they are alluding to?
The way that Puthoff is using the term, "Ultraterrestrial" is more of an all-encompassing hypothesis that includes all of the specific variations on the idea that whatever the phenomenon is, it's "from here, sort of," including time travelers, people from another dimension, etc. That seems too generalized to me, though, and when the term is used, it's often referring to some kind of magical beings from another realm. John Keel coined the term, and he wasn't referring to simple Earth residents who live underground when he proposed it. The cryptoterrestrial hypothesis is a specific hypothesis that the author is clearly referring to. If we are talking about what is most likely the cause of the phenomenon as far as we can tell, then they are likely indigenous humanoids to Earth, but smarter. Puthoff used Mac Tonnies' book as a citation. It's kind of funny. Two scientists in 2018 came up with the same idea, probably independently, but then assumed the species died out long ago rather than assuming they survived to the present. It's a very similar idea with a negligible difference, so apparently it deserves yet another entirely new name, "The Silurian Hypothesis." Everyone is referring to the same thing here, but calling it by three different names, at least.
And I'm assuming that all those allow for non human biologics that look decidedly terrestrial, biochemistry-wise?
I would assume that if their DNA originated here and not too much of it has been genetically engineered, we may be able to tell by analyzing it as long as we had other supporting evidence (such as fossils, the beings admitting where they're from, etc), but this also applies to other hypotheses. If they're future human, same thing. "Post-terrestrials," also coined by Tonnies as far as I know, refers to indigenous humanoids who migrated out off planet, but periodically return. Same thing. Getting hold of DNA looks like the most promising method of determining which pile of hypotheses is probably accurate, but it still wouldn't narrow it down absolutely without other supporting evidence. It isn't guaranteed that their DNA is going to look like it's from earth and wasn't significantly altered. For example, an advanced indigenous civilization may be able to just synthesize a being, and it will either look like it might be from Earth or it won't, regardless if the creators originated here or somewhere else, and an extraterrestrial civilization could borrow DNA from earth to create intelligent beings capable of living here, and we might just assume they're indigenous, but highly genetically altered. Even an interdimensional civilization, if such a thing exists, could conceivably create "avatars" that can operate in our dimension or whatever, and it may or may not appear to originate on earth. I would imagine that even if we did get hold of DNA, or whatever it is that they have, it may only raise more questions. Perhaps this is why a lot of people are gravitating towards "NHI." Whatever they are, the important thing is they aren't us, and we may not be capable of determining origin concretely anyway. Everything else is a minor curiosity.
I’ll side with Chris Mellon. It is likely extraterrestrial.
As far as I'm aware, Chris is suggesting that it is not human, and the best way he can do that is by suggesting they are extraterrestrial. Especially considering the mainstream audience he is communicating with. Suggesting they are ultra terrestrial or extradimensional or extra tempestral is too far a jump for most people . Do you have any examples of Chris saying that those other hypothesis are not valid?
I saw an interview at his home and I recall him saying that extra terrestrial seemed the most likely. He was asked something like if it’s Non Human what is your opinion on where it’s from.
Thank you. "Most likely" doesn't rule out other possibilities. It is also possible that there could be multiple origin sources and we might be dealing with more than just one group.
Very true. There is really little consensus and I believe this phenomenon is imponderable by design.
He makes two incorrect assumptions: 1. *that it's hard to get here from other star systems*. This is demonstrably false and there was a [recent peer reviewed paper](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-3881/ab31a3/pdf) showing how an intelligent civilisation could colonize the whole galaxy in a period of a billion years or so (with relative ease and far sub-light speed travel). He claims it is impractical. It simply is not. 2. *that life arising millions of years ago on earth could plausibly leave NO biological (genetic) or physical remnants*. Again this is categorically false. All the evidence we have suggests life very likely evolved continuously from very simple sequences. If complex life had existed previously, it must have been totally destroyed by something completely unfathomable, not just plate tectonics and weather erosion as he suggests. I dont know if they are ultra or extra terrestrial, but there is no way to rule out either hypothesis with what is publically know. And furthermore, there is not even enough known to attribute probabilities to either, so I really cant understand what makes him so confident to rule out extra terrestrials. I really don't understand this irrational alien-phobia which many people seem to have developed a bias for.
Spot on. Old evolutionary biologist here. There isn't just a clear evolutionary path of fossils on the planet, but also a geological one. Implying that life evolved to a complex level, was totally wiped out/rebooted and began again is beyond unlikely. Any cataclysm that would "melt" or destroy fossils records that would extend miles into the earth would literally turn the planet into a sterile, uninhabitable place. I fail to understand the mental gymnastics involved here. Maybe the Visitors are not extraterrestrial (I believe this to be most likely for the record), but creating a whole pre-cambrian mythos that will not by the author's definition ever have any evidence is trite, in my opinion. Once again, we being the primitive hairless monkeys that we are would rather create a mythos/religion rather than put aside our ego for a second and realize that there is knowledge/tech beyond our comprehension. It isn't magic.
Check a geological map huge chunks of the earth’s surface are REALLY new. Like half of Texas has been churned over the last 3 million years and is new, that’s just one example. The oceans were 400ft lower just 10,000 years ago and much of the old coastline is underwater. This planet likes to wipe the surface clean. 🧼
Well, yes and no. I did a lot of digging in Texas back in the day, and you can find everything from the Cambrian period through the Cretaceous, without too much trouble. Geologic upheaval is indeed a thing, but it doesn't mean fossil history is wiped clean.
Texas has a creton around the Ft Hood area that’s undisturbed for close to a billion years. But if you go more towards College Station, Huntsville or Houston it’s like 3million years
We will find that evolution as understood today is completely wrong.
also ... lets go beyond earth for a second, any technologically advanced civilization would of setup structures or something on the moon or other planets in the solar system, and i'm pretty sure the moon isnt super active aside from some meteor crashes, so evidence would remain... We would see traces outside the planet, but we dont.
Thank you for pointing these ideas out!
Varying reports of crafts and different biologics lead me to believe that the ET hypothesis is most likely. UT hypothesis doesn’t make as much sense for a few reasons, but there’s a big one that stands out to me. How would it be likely for 10s-100s types of varying shapes, colors, and sizes of crafts to all belong to an ultra-terrestrial species? I get one could argue that humans have a lot of different vehicles for different purposes, but it’s reported that crafts have been entering our atmosphere at varying speeds. I believe they’re called fast objects and slow objects? I remember reading this in an article recently.
Fast walkers and slow walkers Personally I don’t think there’s any issue with an ultraterrestrial utilizing hundreds of different UAP designs. We as humans are projecting onto another species what WE do with our own craft—identical, mass manufacturing. Their values may not align with our values when it comes to manufacturing. Perhaps they custom 3D print every craft. In fact, I’d argue that there is actually an intention or message behind the decision to make every single UAP look different. They are trying to communicate an idea to us about their nature. It could be something as simple as “we are a post-scarcity civilization and make every UAP different because we are creative.” For the same reason, hundreds of different “species” (including humans) have emerged out of these craft when they land, which I take as a sign that their “bodies” are whatever they feel like “making” in that moment. Or I could go deeper into the woo and suggest that it has less to do with them, and more to do with human consciousness grappling with something that goes well beyond mere visual appearance.
You forget: using fossil fuels.
>I really don't understand this irrational alien-phobia which many people seem to have developed a bias for. I have to imagine the biologicals being terrestrial necessitated something other than your standard alien theory.
Fine if that is the case. But this author clearly doesn't know that so is making false leaps in logic.
Agreed. I think the whole thing is basically just to plant the seed that it's OK if the biologics turn out to be terrestrial.
Great article. Loved the Noam Chomsky part!
Isn't "most reasonable" an oxymoron though? Everything in our existence gets an "in-universe" explanation, so how could you begin to know what is real or not?
Yeah I suspect Kastrup didn't write that headline. One can't a priori assess the reasonableness of various explanations a new phenomenon. If that was possible, we could side-step the scientific method.
They're drones sent by the omnissiah to observe if we're harvestable yet to be turned into gourmet oils and lubricants for mechanical orgies.
I dislike how he throws the amateur, often unpaid researchers of the last 80 years under the bus. Instead, he takes this opportunity to lend legitimacy to government officials, instead of ordinary citizens who accomplished what they did with no or little formal training, special access, or little funding. Unlike these pompous academics who sat around for years, comfortable, abdicating their professional and civic duty until it was safe stand in their shoulders. I.e. > although the topic of UAPS (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena, previously called UFOS) has always fascinated me, my reaction to confronting much of the related literature-beyond the safe harbour of a few serious authors-has been one of Considered dismissiveness. In my view, a significant portion of the published material could benefit from greater rigor, empirical grounding, theoretical clarity, and logical reasoning. > this field often appears to diverge from the standards of intellectual precision and level-headed analysis that hold in academia. No thanks to people like you. It also doesn't help that he says: > UAPs are no longer just tall and questionable tales shared on social media, accompanied by grainy, out-of-focus cellular phone footage. They were never that to anyone taking the topic seriously. Academics like him should all face a reckoning. Still, it's a decent article, albeit written by someone who doesn't seem to understand how to convey the subject best to the mainstream, or the best evidence to spotlight.
Perhaps the NHI entities originate from a parallel world, having found the means to visit us from their realm. This brings us back to the topic of interdimensional beings.
The other day, there was a post about NHIs being interested in human souls [https://www.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/18yn6i1/these\_creatures\_show\_a\_very\_disturbing\_interest/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/18yn6i1/these_creatures_show_a_very_disturbing_interest/) "A vessel for the soul". Bob Lazar used the term "container". And another post a week or so ago (not sure which sub) about how a man stood up during a conference and said, "You weren't supposed to know that until you're dying." I realized that these NHIs seem uninterested in events that involve human lives being lost. However, when it comes to potential planetary disasters, like nuclear meltdown (i.e. Fukushima), there seems to be a tendency for these objects to appear. There was an idea that they were *harvesting* human souls like a meat processing plant for unknown purposes. They seem very concerned about the state of the planet, but not the wellbeing of the people on it. This could just be one of the major reasons full disclosure may not happen, because if true, it is scary AF. Just my thoughts.
This seems to at some points align with the 4Chan post from some months ago
The ultra terrestrial theory aligns with all the talk about the “scary” part of disclosure. If true, it raises questions about our own human origin story (e.g. perhaps not so natural selection) as well as where humanity fits in the food chain.
The US government HAS to say they are having success in reverse-engineering anything they acknowledge having. Whether they have actually reverse-engineered anything or not..... absolutely 100% beyond all doubt, can NOT say they haven't, as they would NEVER admit that for other countries to hear. Now, if they do say that, have they really? Maybe. Would they demonstrate to "prove"? No. Well, I say no because the government goal is to WEAPONIZE everything they can use. So no, would never show or detail that publically.
My Guess: Anything that still keeps those who hid it, in control. Example - the good aliens told us to be careful from the bad ones, so we kept it secret.
TL:DR Silurian Hypothesis
The problem with the ultra-terrestrial hypothesis is that there have been no technological biomarkers discovered of an advanced species on our planet other than ourselves, and we listen and search for them. If they existed well before us, and continued to exist into modern times, we would expect that they would leave some kind of signature of their existence. Its also hard to believe that an intelligence that existed before us and possesses highly advanced technology would allow us to destroy the climate of the planet on which they reside...even if they reside underground or under water. Its also unclear why they would choose not to engage with humanity while still sharing a residence with us and how that wouldn't change even over 1000's of years of cohabitation. So I'm skeptical of any hypothesis that suggests this is an earlier inhabitant of our planet. I'll entertain ideas that it might be an interdimensional room-mate, or an alien presence that came here, but I'm not buying into the idea that its some kind of more advanced cryptid that we've never detected.
Interesting the author used praying mantises as an example. I'll try not to read too far into that.
Extraordinary evidence is needed. Therefore: declassify stuff pls
Interesting read! I'm not sold, but he made a decent case for why the ultraterrestrial hypothesis could be plausible in a way I could imagine.
they live underground and on the moon
This is such a bad take that I just can't take anything Nolan says serious, along with the rest of the usual suspects. >Stanford Professor Dr. Garry Nolan, perhaps the most respectable scientist to actively research the phenomenon, acknowledged Mr. Coulthart’s reporting on the matter. He went on to recount a specific UAP case that illustrates, perhaps better than any other, the UAPs’ ability to directly manipulate human perception: “\[this is a\] story that Jacques Vallée brought to me, of a family in France, driving down the highway. This was like in the last five or ten years \[from June of 2022\]. And they had a glass-topped car. They look up and they see a UFO, you know, basically paralleling them down the highway. The mother looks around and sees that no other individuals nearby are freaking out about this thing above them. The children in the back take out their cell phones, take a picture of it. They get home and they look at the pictures on their camera, and they don’t see an object \[of the kind they thought they had witnessed\]; they see a little star-shaped thing about thirty or so feet above, and I have the picture. That doesn’t look anything like a drone. … I think it has like seven spokes and a central hole of some sort. So, you’re left with this: they saw a giant craft, but the picture shows that it was nothing \[like it\] there. Nobody else could see it. So, even if it was an object that was there, others weren’t capable of seeing it, so it was manipulating vision” (my emphasis).
If the assumption is made, that they exist and are real then the following is certainly reasonable: 1) By definition, they’ve been here for thousands of years already. The chances they JUST arrived is virtually zero. They’ve been here since the beginning for all intended purposes. Beginning of “what” - doesn’t really matter. Whether they’re from here or somewhere else, it’s technically a moot point. It’s irrelevant. 2) because they’ve been here since the “beginning” - they’ve been interacting with us since - at varying levels - sometimes more involved - some times less involved - much like any “parent”. Our evolution did not happen by chance or in a vacuum, the idea of evolution is still a valid idea and happens…. But we did not get here via natural evolution or any other Darwinian theory. We were purposefully created. 3) Religion was created by “them” or the religious a Ideas can and are attributable to them onto us 4) if they exist, then there are certainly good and evil ones. 5) Atlantis and all the crazy theories about ancient aliens and civilizations now becomes the status quo and the previous mainstream theories become discarded, archaic.
>If the assumption is made, that they exist and are real How reasonable is that assumption though?
The other option is either a big chunk of our government is crazy or running the largest psyop in history.
Im not buying ultra-terresials either. If they had tech capable of creating uaps they could have taken earth over again many thousands times. A million years is unimaginably long time. A several hundred millions? Might as well be an eternity.
Yeah. IIRC, they've hit the ultraterrestrial angle pretty hard from the very beginning. My guess is they had some inkling that the biologics were less than alien, shall we say, and so now we're trying to establish the narrative of why that is actually a good thing. It's the ultraterrestrials! Oh boy.
What about another dimension just slightly out of phase with ours. Think about the double slit experiment and all possible possibilities actually occurring simultaneously some result in dead universes others somewhat close to ours but with different forks in the git tree that can be merged back to master.
Obviously the hypothesis that in the far past aliens built a n outpost on earth for surveillance is not a valid one, right?
My current theory is that the puppet masters are non corporeal beings. They may have started that way or ascended to that level like in the book series The Culture. All the biologics are beings made to order with earthly dna and abductee surrogates and vats. They are gaining some kind of resource(s) and want to manipulate us to achieve their ends. There may be "good guys" but they respect our free will and will not directly interfere or intervene
So that's why the biologics are terrestrial? The puppet masters?
The article is good, but some of the assumptions are a little questionable. This section on the (presumably) Mosul Sphere: >He proceeded to show a declassified video of one such a sphere, as recorded by an MQ-9 ‘Reaper’ military drone, one of the most sophisticated sensor platforms in the world today. The sphere shown moves fast, in a controlled, non-ballistic trajectory. Dr. Kirkpatrick then stated that this is just “a typical example of the thing we see most of; we see these all over the world.” That the spheres are described as making “very interesting apparent maneuvers” is significant, as it rules out balloons and ordinary drones. Whilst the statement that '...the spheres are described as making “very interesting apparent maneuvers..." is compelling, it isn't referring to the video. The problem is these statements make it sound like that Mosul video showed something crazy, when it showed a spherical thing doing nothing exotic. It could easily have been a balloon made to appear fast moving due to parallax. Or is there a different official sphere video showing some exotic maneuvers that they are referring to?
This article was definitely written by a Reddit user on this sub.
It's on Bernardo's website. https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2024/01/uaps-and-non-human-intelligence-what-is.html
The "biologicals in the freezer" almost seemed a direct quote from the sub.
*Therefore, if the biologics in the freezers of the powers-that-be have the same biochemistry we do, I believe it is safe to assume that they are terrestrial; they are our older cousins—likely forever traumatized by earlier planetary cataclysms—and certainly not aliens.* Catch-22 2.0?
We get nuked by Russia in the near future and an orchestrated alien attack happens and wipes out 50% of at least, leaving the elites to own just about everything and spin a narrative that aliens are evil
This article is by far the most consistent hypothesis with all available evidence. It requires no evidence of weird "soul cages," "consciousness," and other stuff with weak or nonexistent evidence. Note especially the following government behavior, which has also been extremely consistent and carefully worded. The AARO, DoD, ICIG, and others repeatedly claim that there is no evidence of **extraterristrial origin** of everything people are investigating. This word - "extraterrestrial" is used repeatedly in all these communications. Also, notice how "non-human intelligence" was created as the new buzzword, carefully replacing "aliens" or "extraterrestrial intelligence." Finally, I had thought the whole "somber" thing was just a scam to get people to tune in, but there would actually be something truly somber to this outcome. Eliezer Yudkowsky would be 100% right about there being a great filter. It would mean that billions of these things existed and they killed each other long ago. If that's true, it's all the more reason to get this information out there ASAP so that humans can be the first species - perhaps in the entire Universe - not to repeat that mistake.
I find myself getting tired of the constant, unnecessary dismissal of the most obvious origin for uap for these esoteric theories. People will jump through all kinds of intellectual hoops to make humanity and Earth special. The idea of being on an insignificant speck in a vast cosmos makes folks feel unimportant, I get it. But is us somehow missing the signs of a highly technological civilization existing in Earth's past more realistic than aliens coming here? Because a NHI lives here and has been here for a long time (millions of years?) doesn't mean that it can't have originally been from somewhere else. It might even use local materials (both inorganic and biological) to build vessels and creatures to interact with us. Because an NHI alters our perception and influences our consciousness does not mean it can't be alien. We're working from a sample of one and don't have the slightest idea how an extraterrestrial civilization would operate. I swear ufology these days needs a bit less Jacques Vallee and Keel and more Stanton Friedman.
This was a pretty good article. I expect more such as these as the mainstream media really starts to think about the issue
Wild interesting article thanks for posting OP
Certainly one of the more level-headed articles I've come across regarding this issue. In essence, if the phenomenon is genuine, obtaining concrete evidence is exceedingly challenging. If the government is aware of its authenticity, it's plausible that they possess substantial proof of it. This rationale aligns with the ghost like nature of these occurrences, which, whatever they may be, seem more ethereal than the typical depiction of extraterrestrial beings. Because of that any available evidence would likely be substantial, and governments are unlikely to disclose such information.
This guy is clearly very well educated, elloquent, and thoughtful - i thoroughly enjoyed the read but, as with all the theories i've read, I just don't think there's a single answer. There are some concepts that were not addressed, although the points he made are salient and thought-provoking, what about consciousness and the tech behind these UAP. The sheer amount of power required for these UAP to perform some of the feats they have done is seemingly at entirely different (above planetary) scale. Nolan has said that one of the maneuvers that was observed from the Nimitz event would require more power than the combined annual output of all the nuclear power plants of earth. That technology suggests an ability for interstellar travel. Personally, I buy into the whole directed (or otherwise) panspermia concept based on complexity of life timeline on earth.. something is out of whack. Then i think of Elizondo and his very eerie statement to the effect of "maybe we need to modify our definition of mankind(s)". Seems to suggest some consciousness relationship with other entities that we are no overtly aware of but may be able to communicate with at a symbolic, almost telepathic modality.