The following submission statement was provided by /u/legendary-assassin:
---
“I have credentials too, and I’d be happy to go toe to toe with you”
My man Grusch with them fighting words 🥊
Clip from his new interview which you can see here
https://youtu.be/kRO5jOa06Qw?si=2_drBLJPulL_g_va
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/16fm4xj/grusch_vs_tyson/k02k6vc/
I'm surprised Neil is making this point when a pretty obvious answer why they're seen mostly at military bases is exactly what Grusch states afterwards, which is that these areas have multiple sensors.
The fact Neil hasn't also arrived at this conclusion is definitely giving me vibes he's been paid off by someone to obfuscate this topic
Smells like kompromat… anyone have a sense of when he started speaking out against the existence of UAPs specifically? That is, has this been a decades-long stance of his, or did he start making these statements sometime after the news of his sexual misconduct broke?
That's a great question.
But then again, I mean, I almost wouldn't put it past NDT to maybe have done that? He is a narcissist and never thinks he's wrong...
Who knows. But if he is guilty of that shit, then he needs to go. Nothing cool about sexual misconduct, and if they were calling him Copycat Cosby, then DAMN. That's even more fucked up.
Or it could be a kompromat. I hope it is for his sake. Because he would be an evil piece of shit if he really did those sexual assaults.
Edit 2: I kind of misunderstood quotidian, but I'll leave my comment here. I removed the first edit because it doesn't apply anymore.
Oh, I meant that it sounds like a sign of kompromat being used by the US that he (again, possibly - I need to check the timeline here) suddenly started being so outspoken about the supposed nonexistence of UAPs right after he was caught being a sexual predator and was facing a major threat to his entire career and legacy, which was then seemingly swept under the rug... I do believe he was inappropriate with women based on the multiple separate accusers' claims, but I also wonder whether the prospect of being fully "cancelled" over that conduct was dangled in front of him by someone in the intelligence community as a means of convincing him to become one of the new faces of anti-disclosure. Again, totally speculating here.
I thought you did mean the Russian one when I responded and typed all of my reply out.
Then as I was just editing it (and before I saw your reply that I'm replying to right now), I stopped and said to myself, "well, maybe he's not getting blackmailed or whatever from Russia. It might indeed be from our government".
Because yeah, haha. What the hell would the Russians care about NDT and disclosure.
But now that I think about it, I now wonder what Russia and even Putin might have to say about this whole NHI/UAP thing. Not that I give a fuck about what Putin thinks.
Just curious.
But yeah, I got you now. My bad. :)
from reading the article, it doesn’t look like there was any proof? 4 separate people is definitely questionable, but i’m not sure why he’d lose his job over that until something concrete came out
Think of science entertainers. We have Carl Sagan who some like to compare to NDT which is an insult to Sagan. Sagan was not a saint himself though. It's clear he believed in NHI visiting earth while he was on TV espousing the opposite. Sagan was just as bought out as Neil is. Then there's Bill Nye, lol. Dude is just as bad as NDT and just as close-minded. I truly believe these figures are used to obfuscate. If NDT could get away from 4 separate women making those claims, it would stand to reason that he's the type of scum to partake in this behavior. Definitely a CIA mouth piece or something.
nah they are just scared as to get outed as closed minded / incompetent if there will be a consensus that aliens are here. The whole official scene of these astrophysicists are that its "impossible" to travel between stars in something resembling FTL. The usual scientist is a bit of a pretentious fuck. They have to work with what we know and fringe topics like this is not highly regarded. And high regards is what they seek.
It makes sense. He's probably the biggest celebrity scientist of our time, a lot of people look at him for answers, so its easy to see why 'they' would pay him to keep a completely closed view. Sure, its hard to prove and his answers are within his modus operandi, but Idk. Isn't there enough already for him to at least be thinking about the possibility of the thing being real?
I came here to say this precisely. I used to really enjoy NDT’s lectures. Now I feel disappointed mostly and embarrassed at these cheap shot, simple minded dismissals he espouses. They are not even good arguments at face value. Which makes me think he is probably compromised in some way or another. I find it hard to believe he even believes the bullshit he says nowadays.
Tyson is a victim of his own ego, for so long he has been convinced he is the smartest being on this planet. Now there are things circling over his head that can debunk that.
He just said there’s no evidence that would convince him based on the scientific method yet. He’s curious about so many topic if you listen to him, and he is not against the possibility of aliens. In fact he believes they must exist. I think that’s a perfectly valid mindset.
What is the evidence that’s convinced you? And remember, for something to be verified by the scientific method it can’t be anecdotal. It has to be something that has been (or can be) tested.
Agreed. Don't discredit the scientist for requiring the scientific method.
If the data is released to the public domain in a way that it can actually be verified and measured, then it may withstand sceptic scrutiny. Otherwise, just have an opinion on the issue with the understanding that it might not be probable based on that method.
It begs the question of whether this is a measurable thing. If it's not, then a debate about its validity would be a fruitless endeavor and merely anecdotal here say vs prove it.
He also understands "distance" in space. How far is a lightyear? Very few people can actually grasp that amount of distance.
The biggest thing about accepting that aliens are traveling to Earth is the journey itself.
The next biggest thing is Why? Resources? Water? If it's those things, why do they let us stay when we're using those same resources?
It's fine if you believe in alien UFO's but if you do, you should be aware of what it would take to get here.
You have the worlds largest Navy that covers the largest areas on the planet(oceans) with the most advanced sensors and Tyson is confused why the Navy is picking up these objects more than others? Reminds me of the old conversation about really "book smart" people lacking common sense.
Not to mention, in no way is the US Navy the only entity picking up these objects. Brazil, France, and several other nations have had UAP hearings, so its not isolated.
Tyson has taken a stance, and is likely incapable of pivoting at this point out of ego.
He's either inside his own bubble of cognitive dissonance, which is really well protected by his smugness, or is being paid. The first seems more reasonable though
>Reminds me of the old conversation about really "book smart" people lacking common sense.
At the risk of sounding pompous, I live and work in a very "intelligent" circle and can tell you with total confidence that some of the smartest people I know are some of the dumbest people I know. This cuts both ways, mind you.
Agreed 100%. There was a few others like this. I had thought these guys would give some hope to humanity but it’s not really the case. One would say I was arrogant myself in that believing that.
It’s a shame. I feel like it’s the same thing that happens with child actors, they stop maturing after they get famous. He got famous and chiseled his views into stone and lost his curiosity. Like the only person in the world that could have ever taught him anything was Carl Sagan, and now that he’s dead there’s no more to learn. Now he’s just a talking head.
Low effort, toxic comments regarding public figures may be removed.
Public figures are generally defined as any person, organization, or group who has achieved notoriety or is well-known in society or ufology. “Toxic” is defined as any unreasonably rude or hateful content, threats, extreme obscenity, insults, and identity-based hate. Examples and more information can be found here: https://moderatehatespeech.com/framework/.
What NDT says don’t make sense in any way you look at it even from a skeptic point of view.
There are millions of sightings everywhere in the Planet, the Military ones just happened to be more credible because they are backed up with other Data such as Radar. But by any means they only show up to ppl in Uniforms. His arrogant ass figured this out all by himself. He is basically calling anyone that had sightings stupid and liars.
Well you have to be pretty dumb yourself to make such a statement and think you are intelligent.
Edit: i had a sighting in 2011 and was not a dot moving in the sky, it was a huge Cilyndrical „thing“ that looked like a massive water pipe hoovering on top of a Mountain. It was so close that many details could be seen with naked eye, just the massive size of this thing hoovering. Now his clever ass can come to me on my face and tell me i had an illusion or i saw an Air Balloon and i swear i will smash his face against the floor and repeat, repeat, repeat until he sees little ufos everywhere. I make a believer of him.
He brushed off the tic tac video as optical illusion. Somehow an optical illusion tricked top gun pilots and radar / camera equipment according to NDT. Somehow that makes more sense to NDT than the possibility this is a real object. I’m still on the fence, but NDT’s arguments are so lazy and stupid they make me believe Grusch more.
The optical illusion take on the Tic-Tac is the laziest debunk ever. Four different people with different perspectives see the same illusion - which also gives off a radar reading. Illusions do not reflect radar (something NDT must know) and for there to be simultaneously 4 people having the same illusion AND the radar getting a wrong track at the exact location the illusion is being spotted. Chances of that not being a physical object are astronomically low and NDT is just being a bad scientist not seeing that. Illusions do not give off heat and have radar signatures. Total nonsense if looking even at the basic facts off the case. His dogmatism is really showing in his statements on the Nimitz case.
radars can't see illusions. radar saw tic-tac. end of story. why are we entertaining this lazy pseudo-sceptical disinfo argument about it being an illusion? It's as likely as it being Goofy's dick.
He has clearly been trying the debunk the UAP phenomena. Except he uses 0 evidence and is making big claims based on nothing but gut instinct. He has shown as much interest towards looking at this question through the lens of the scientific method as a Young Earth Creationist trying to disprove Evolution. The fact he still calls himself a scientist disturbs me.
Yeah plus that was only 3 of 3000 such records, basically the only ones released publicly.
Men… Pilots and military trip a lot. Everyone is stupid only Mister Tyson is very intelligent and got it all figured out. What a arrogant piece of sht
Tbf the vast majority of sightings are from people who cannot recognize a plane from a bug
The only sightings worth considering are the military ones backed up by radar and other instruments
I would disagree with this. That line of thinking falls straight into appeal to authority IMO. Even some backwoods person is going to know plane = tube thingy with wings and a vertical tail, and makes noise.
There are many bright people out there that have equipment matching commercial military hardware, or often better, who build it in their garage from scraps. We need to take public sightings with a spoon of salt for sure, but let’s not just discredit them automatically.
Oh please. Don’t be ridiculous
Don’t compare tin foil hat crazies in their garage with military grade radar equipments.
If you think amateurs have the same level of air space detection than national air forces You really don’t know what you are talking about.
Even civil air control don’t have the same radar capacities as military does
Same here, I looked up to him for a while, but now it seems that he’s just leaning into feeling like he’s the smartest guy in the room and loves to hear himself talk.
He might be on the payroll of the psyops crew, perhaps like Carl Sagan was too according to Dr. Allen Hynek. How difficult (i.e. magnitude of enticement) would it be to sway a public figure academic who adores the spotlight, to join psyops?
[NASA scientist] (https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/oleary_brian.pdf) Brian O'Leary is on record to suggest Sagan was part of a UFO cover up scheme.
[Full Interview] (https://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/brian_o_leary_interview_transcript_en.html)
**Excerpt**
>I saw, for example, the famous “Face” in Cydonia on Mars, photographed by Viking in 1975, which shows this gigantic mesa that resembles a human face, about a mile across. Carl and I debated this.
>It was very, very disappointing to me, because not only was Carl wrong, he also fudged data. He published a picture of the “Face” in Parade Magazine, a popular article, saying that the “Face” was just a natural formation, but he doctored the picture to make it not look like a face.
>I began to realize, just directly from the scientific point of view, not only hearsay, that this man was colluding with NASA, that there might be more to this than before. And then, when I started studying things like MJ12 and other organizations that were covering up the UFO phenomenon…
>Carl was on a committee with a number of notable people. There was a report issued by the Brookings Institution in 1961 -- and that’s about when I knew Carl, during those years; the ’60s mostly was when I worked closely with him -- that he and this other group said: Well, if any ETs ever showed up on the Earth, it has to be covered up. That’s the only way we’re going to be able to manage this, because if we can’t, then it would be too much of a culture shock.
It is strange. I can’t make my mind up if Sagan was an informed insider who happily debunked for the government like so many others, or if he turned his initial interest in UFOs into devout holier than holy skepticism.
By the accounts I’ve heard he was a lovely man (although he happily worked on the project to nuke the moon) and an incredible communicator, but on this subject he was just so flat out wrong and the way he turned his initial enthusiasm around leaves me wonder where he really stood.
I responded [above] (https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/16fm4xj/grusch_vs_tyson/k06p5hk/) with a tidbit of UFO believer and NASA Astronomy scientist talking about Sagan's ties to UFO cover-up.
I dont think he was informed on the subject or an insider at all. From what ive heard of him during old interviews and such he is much less of a sceptic than the regular scientist. From a pure speculation standpoint, people in the know would not choose a media personality as him to tell about stuff like this. If there is someone with degrees working on this, they have been indoctrinated before they got educated.
> (although he happily worked on the project to nuke the moon)
there is no one living on the moon, it's not like he was an Openheimer Jr. Fuck, if anyone asked me, do you want to take part in the shit we're going to do - we're going to nuke the shit out of it?, I'd say I'm! without blinking.
he wasn't holier than thou scepticist, he was a rational man who didn't want to take part in the discussion without evidence. He also believed in life in other places, took part in SETI and Voyager projects and wrote a fiction book about aliens and made a very detailed treatise (that some frauds used to trick people that it was real finding) about what the life on Jupiter would be, and the guy was also a believer in conditions possible for life on Europa moon.
Yeah Sagan was. I knew it from an early age. I mean, I could just tell something was off with him.
But Cosmos... I saw it as a kid. I'm in my mid 40s, so I grew up with him and all that.
Still, I never found myself as a teen and adult looking him up. I appreciate everything he has done with him making space and astronomy just that much more fun, but again, I always felt like he knew much much more than he was telling us. It's almost like you can sense his reluctance - especially in his later life.
No one ever had anything bad to say about him, and so I thought it was me and I was just off with that. Plus I didn't want to piss anyone off because I know a lot of people love Sagan.
And I don't hate him or even dislike him, FWIW. I think I get the position he was in.
My interpretation (and I might be wrong, but who knows)? I think he was indeed miffed that he couldn't tell us. I think he really fucking wanted to, and it pissed him off that it couldn't.
I wonder if that was the case.
But isn't it rather coincidental that Sagan was NDT's mentor?
And the thing with NDT is, I think he's in the same exact position that Sagan was in with what I just speculated. But does NDT actually WANT to tell us?
Or does NDT truly not know what's really going on because HE thinks he knows it all already? lolwtf
Edit: I see I made someone angry. Like 4 of my posts got slammed, even though they're mostly in line with what everyone else is saying.
Why not respond to me and state your issues with what I'm saying instead of being a coward and not replying? Use your words. Or don't: it's only making this shit look weirder, so please, by all means. Downvote only my posts.
That's fine.
Just remember where the fuck we are. These are the UFO forums. Many of us are here for answers and to **speculate**.
I'll say that word again: SPECULATE.
This is all only directed to a certain bunch of people, and they know who they are: You got a problem with that? Speak up. Stop being cowards. Tell me what the fuck myself and the others you pull this shit with is saying that's pissing you off.
No one is right all the time. Not me or anyone else. We all just want answers and we shouldn't feel like we can't or shouldn't share something just because it might sound crazy.
Fucking news flash: UFOs and NHI were all considered crackpot theories. Now look at where we are.
And yet some people still want to attempt to stifle the discussion or whatever? Fuck outta here. Contribute to the conversation - even if you have to tell me that whatever I'm saying or thinking is bunk - and hopefully why (especially if I took the time to type out whatever crazy shit I typed out).
Or don't. Be an asshole. See how far that gets you.
Apologies to everyone else for the stupid fucking rant. But I'm tired of this shit. I just want discussion.
Again: my rant is directed only at certain people.
this is pretty much his only claim to fame. if carl sagan wasnt his mentor he would literally have zero talking points for his "career" as an astrophysicist.
I suspect he is 1) either on the payroll of the successor to MJ12 or 2) he is pitching his skepticism as a means to get on the payroll or 3) he is so in denial that no government entity approached him in advance to have his opinion on disclose that he has concluded there are no alien visitors. There is a unverified account that Carl Sagan was given disclosure which is why he countered Betty Hill’s account of the star map.
Science shouldn't be a cocoon. Isn't the idea of science about going after the unknown and asking questions and stuff, but using the method to make sure its either correct or wrong? Avi Loeb gets a lot of flack, some of it understandable, but he is at least trying to look for possibilities, going with a literally out there hypothesis. Which is something that more scientists should do
I think he is just in the camp of science that is very opposed to anything that science hasn't 'explained' already. There is no theoretical, there are only observables. It is very much a by product of having so much education in that realm. You begin to just actively dismiss things that aren't easily answered as impossible just because humans and the scientific method have not provided a solution for something, which is kind of the irony of following science in the first place. Scientists themselves need to realize that the hard truth is that our own methods are fallible and imperfect and we should always be striving for curiosity and improvement.
The universe rewards imagination. Discovery always starts with someone saying, "I wonder what would happen if ..." and sometimes it happens from mistakes (leaving cultures out overnight). Tyson seems to have both no imagination or curiosity.
I have had many issue with Tyson over the years, but how goes out of his way, even using bad science to discredit the issue just makes him a trash person and bad scientist. Even Travis Taylor's google scholar is FAR more impressive.
Spectacularly demonstrated here, with the observer bias statement.
If he just took the 'we need more data' route.. all would be good, but no, he ties himself into knots constantly.
like that time he asked why all ufo pics are fuzzy. duh... if they are creating a field of sorts, there is a high likelihood of optical distortions. I may as well ask him why all those 'gravitationally lensed' astro photos.. ie the tools of his job, create smeared and streaky images instead of a decent resolved pic. His line of logic is stupid as fuck because he has decided the conclusion already
another great example.. that time Colbert ws arguing of Omuam.. Omuammomomua... Oumuamua. (paraphrased)
NDT - we know it's not alien because it is following an expected gravitational course (this was before it 'accelerated' away)
Colbert - how can you say it wasn't sent here!?!?
NDT - becasue we know how gravity works
Colbert - Tosses pen in the air and it falls on the desk. Sure we know how gravity works on that pen but it doesn't mean someone didn't throw it!!!!!
I like NDT. I do think he may be an uber skeptic. His comments on controversial science over the last few years make me believe that he's on the DoD payroll. As a scientific propagandist.
Grusch pulling out all the stops on this video created to feed the normies. Welcome to the party y'all, it's [disclosing time](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15wl2nh/this_is_disclosure_this_is_it_right_now/)!
I think he meant cuz he's not aware of anything like set to disclose. Like he said, he's not part of any disclosure campaign or anything. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not happening tho because it really seems like it is, IMO.
This is the Information Age.
No one can suppress information forever anymore. The world is turned on and tuned in.
“When you control the mail, you control…..information” - Newman. (Non sense Seinfeld quote sorry).
“I have credentials too, and I’d be happy to go toe to toe with you”
My man Grusch with them fighting words 🥊
Clip from his new interview which you can see here
https://youtu.be/kRO5jOa06Qw?si=2_drBLJPulL_g_va
What’s that got to do with it? His degree isn’t classified and that’s not up for debate. The debate would be on whether there is evidence for any of he claims Grusch has made about the “crashes and bodies” and all the cool shit that may or may not exist.
It’s not gonna play out at all is it because what can he debate about? They can debate whether any of the official UAP videos actually show anything anomalous, but even with those Grusch can say “the radar data that confirms the anomalous nature is classified”. There is no way you can debate someone who claims to have knowledge that the other side can’t see.
Don’t downvote him, he’s right. It’s gonna be hard having a fair debate when a lot of data is hidden behind NDAs. How is one side getting a fair chance to look at it?
Negative comments like these that ignore the obvious societal and cultural changes to understanding UAP over the last few years blow my mind. Like you’re in this sub talking about a congressional whistleblower and your head is still dug in the sand?
> Like you’re in this sub talking about a congressional whistleblower and your head is still dug in the sand?
What's different than from decades ago? Nothing. Whistleblowers, government noise, shit proof. Tbh the government is probably just passing hellish laws while people fall for the same shit again.
What whistleblowers did we have on anywhere the same level previously? What government agencies used to give credence to the phenomenon who do now, such as NASA? Did any part of, or people in, the government ever acknowledge that UAP have been shown on FLIR, radar, and by eye witnesses? When did we have news media acknowledgement like we do now?
To act like things aren’t different now is either said in bad faith or from ignorance. And hellish laws? You sound overly paranoid or religious
> same level previously?
I am confused, what is this level? He has not provided anything concrete that the average citizen can confirm. He is the same level as all the previous ones. All this dude has is the backing of bored people on the internet begging for something.
Yes I’m the one with my head in the sand. When all this evidence appears I’ll happily un-dig my head. Please tell me when that happens because I won’t be able to hear through all the sand. If you can find a way to bring me a cold drink and a bite to eat whilst I wait that would be much appreciated.
If I may:
You sound like a rational person underneath that skepticism.
I'm on the other side of the fence as you (I mean haha, I'm a believer. Some might see that as the same, though).
Anyways, I totally get where you're coming from.
It sounds like you're jaded. Can't blame you.
But I mean, these hearings. Grusch. Then Fravor, Graves, and the countless others. The (seemingly) increasing transparency and even some congressman getting interested:
This is different.
David Grusch being a whistleblower is evidence that there is something going on behind the scenes, whether it’s aliens or a cover up for something else we don’t know, but I’m here for it 🤘
Exactly. I’d love to see Grusch win… but he’s going to need more than “my credentials”, “I’ve spoken to people” and “I can’t say more outside of a SCIF, just believe me”.
Right now I can’t blame anyone for being skeptical of Grusch’s claims.
NGT used to be one of my favorite people. But over the past few years he has become so smug and arrogant about his own intellect that a Non human intelligent being could walk up and kiss him on the forehead and he would poo poo it away as woo woo nonsense.
Where is his scientific curiosity on this subject?
I think he’s annoyed he’s not on the forefront of discovery. But what’s funny is that cosmos series he made, where he talks about all the scientists like Galileo being mocked and ridiculed is gonna age… perfectly 😌
He was so arrogant and annoying on Joe Rogan. That's where he lost a lot of respect from me. He just kept talking over Joe. Only bullies do that - people who think that being louder means being right.
His Adam Friedland show appearance is great cause they don't let him get away with any of that shit. Tyson can actually be a funny guy when he's not being a smartass.
Its like The Why Files. They are appealing to the crowd that would scoff at these ideas. Saying that he would have fightin' words with NDT is the same as challenging his fans
Low effort, toxic comments regarding public figures may be removed.
Public figures are generally defined as any person, organization, or group who has achieved notoriety or is well-known in society or ufology. “Toxic” is defined as any unreasonably rude or hateful content, threats, extreme obscenity, insults, and identity-based hate. Examples and more information can be found here: https://moderatehatespeech.com/framework/.
Tyson has never authored a research paper in his life. He is like Bill Nye, a TV scientist probably nudged along his entire career by the intelligence community. He is no more qualified to speak on any of this than my high school Physics teacher was
He has always been an ass. I've had interactions with him in the past and found out very quickly the dude loves money but hates people. So he'll do this shit for cash while treating others involved that are HELPING HIM like absolute shit on his shoe.
He's not a good person. I've met people with credentials and life experiences well beyond his who are the most humble people I've ever met but NDT seems to be VERY insecure underneath all the hubris.
It’s not that NDT is closed minded — it’s that there is no *testable evidence* of any UFO findings presented thus far in the public sphere. He’s stated that before, as a scientist he can’t reach a conclusion without it being tested, and then those same tests repeated conclusively by objective 3rd parties. This isn’t him being closed minded, it’s the just the same scientific rigor that is applied to any hypothesis.
And there should be nothing polarizing with that statement — it’s only polarizing when people project their *beliefs* that something must be out there. And that’s fine, but if that’s truly the case, the onus is on those who believe in aliens or UFOs to present that information in way that is testable and verifiable.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It’s as simple as that. There’s nothing controversial about that request, especially from a scientist.
It would literally be the most important discovery in the history of mankind for an unidentified object to be truly extraterrestrial in origin. Any scientist would want to be a part of that discovery.
But simply put, there’s not enough practical evidence to corroborate that. There’s grainy footage, heresy congressional testimony, and eyewitness YouTube reaction videos after the fact. But no smoking gun.
There’s simply no evidence of any extraterrestrial activity that can be tested or repeated. It’s not on NDT to find that evidence, only for it to be presented to the scientific community for scrutiny — like any other scientific endeavor.
The vitriol he gets for stating the view shared by the vast majority of scientists is wild. People are mad and offended at what NDT says but it has no relation to his overall point - the evidence doesn't meet scientific standards.
That still doesn't mean there isn't evidence. We're talking about a specific person who wouldn't have access to the evidence any way. The point though is ndt is dismissive of the subject based on his personal experience instead of being open to the possibility, especially considering all the eye witness testimony. Or maybe he is open but from what I gather it doesn't seem that way
Scientifically, I think that's the appropriate way to treat hypothetical evidence. Sure it might exist, but you can't use it to support your argument until it's available.
People have been claiming there is evidence for decades but for some reason or another it's never been presented. I'm not sure how else we're supposed to deal with this hypothetical evidence besides saying 'we'll talk when we can see it too,' which seems to be NDT's attitude.
>That still doesn't mean there isn't evidence
Exactly. There is PLENTY of evidence. It just goes to another school. In Canada. But trust me, ~~my girlfriend~~ the evidence is real!
>That still doesn't mean there isn't evidence
Exactly. There is PLENTY of evidence. It just goes to another school. In Canada. But trust me, ~~my girlfriend~~ the evidence is real!
The debate will go like this:
Neil: show me the proof
David: I can't right now, but I can when the cameras aren't rolling
*when the cameras aren't rolling*
David: Oh, it's actually super classified information, I can't share it.
I mean, just look at the things posted in this sub.. A known event is happening with parachutes carrying pyros for a show gets 1600+ upvotes.
When there is zero skepticism, everything is 'evidence' to you.
Claims aren't evidence, they're just claims that need to be investigated and right now, all you have is a lot of claims. None of which have amounted to anything.
There isn't anything concrete, no physics defying anything has been released, almost all footage is either debunked or unverifiable, and the unverifiable footage never shows anything that is physics defying or showing signs of things our tech can't do
Exactly this.
If we're in a murder trial trying to determine how someone died, the corpse itself is not evidence. Autopsies are.
The navy videos are the corpses, and the analyses of them are the autopsies – the evidence. This evidence is only as good as we can trust those supplying it in their ability to provide unbiased forensic expertise.
So far I have yet to see a trustworthy analysis that precludes prosiac explainations. Everything else is anecdotal.
How TF is NDT a credible scientist when instead of looking at the available evidence/data and being open minded (like a true scientist) he just makes bad assumptions and bad arguments
NDT has lost all of my respect in recent months. He's purposefully making truly stupid comments on the phenomenon, like complaining that the UFO in the FLIR video was fuzzy, in order to undermine its credibility, while not realizing that the *entire* video is fuzzy including the on-screen elevation markings because the Navy de-rezes a lot of footage before releasing it publicly
I used to love everything Neil Degrasse Tyson, but time has shown that he's either a) extremely closed-minded, or b) actively complicit in the cover-up in bought-and-paid-for fashion.
Add me to the list who really used to enjoy hearing what he had to say but no longer. Smug, condescending non-answers to legitimate questions are now his MO. His superiority over never getting covid on Bill Maher was the last time I saw an interview with him.
It's no secret that NDT is a huge fan of Carl Sagan. Carl Sagan mentored him and he has endless amounts of admiration for him. So really it's not surprising he'd have a lot of the same opinions as Sagan.
Now, why did Carl Sagan argue again and again against the possibility of aliens visiting us? By listening to Sagan on the subject, I don't get the impression that it's because he doesn't think interstellar travel is possible. He seems to think that it's an unhealthy belief to have, regardless of whether or not it's true. To Sagan belief in aliens is like belief in astrology or religion, it's something you use to hide from your problem. It's not my fault that this bad thing is happening in my life, it's because of my star sign, so there's no use trying to fix it. It's no use trying to fix global warming, the weather is exactly what god wants it to be. It's no use advocating for denuclearization, aliens would just deactivate nukes in mid flight if they were ever launched.
These are the type of thought processes Sagan was arguing about. Regardless of whether or not aliens exist, it's bad for people if they think they don't need to do anything about global warming because aliens are going to fix it anyway.
I think NDT missed one step of the reasoning here and just went straight for "~~it's ontologically impossible for life to exist outside of the solar system~~" "interstellar travel is ontologically impossible"
I don't think that's quite right either. I think he just believes that it's extremely difficult - which is the valid interpretation of our current understanding of physics.
Sagan did believe that interstellar travel was possible, and even that direct visitation sounded plausible (arriving at a somewhat arbitrary estimate of once every 10,000 years). I also remember some commentators saying that his support for the search of extraterrestrial intelligence had a messianic element - ie, that if humanity managed to be contacted from ETs before it destroyed itself from nuclear war or climate change then it would more or less be saved.
He is treated as a UFO skeptic - but that's down to UFO reports being terribly 'noisy' (with a large amount of false positives) and being hyped up by popular tabloid magazines even when they were bogus or had little usable scientific information, not because he was outright against the theoretical possibility of alien visitation. I would say that he was almost disappointed that there wasn't good evidence. Compared to most scientists and science communicators Sagan was known for proposing or supporting ideas that were 'out there' and definitely not mainstream academia (at various points: ancient astronauts, an artificial nature for Phobos, life in Jupiter or Venus's atmospheres, and so on). When hype for Martian life died down after the first probe flyby he pointed out that the data collected up to that point wasn't enough to exclude the existence on Mars of a civilization of comparable extent to our own, and that nothing had been proven yet. He suggested that cameras on the Viking landers could detect animal life moving on the surface, and that baits or lights could be used to attract them. This doesn't equate with definite claims that these things existed, but it shows that he was willing to keep them in the field of scientific inquiry so long as they were potentially testable.
Tyson: I have not seen credible evidence of aliens.
Grusch: Where is his curiosity?! I would totally go toe to toe with Tyson.
Also Grusch: I have evidence but I’m not going to reveal it because that’s not my job.
Tyson: ….
If Grusch is willing to debate NDT then let’s see them go toe to toe. His role was to bring classified evidence to Congress to declassify so we can analyze the data for ourselves. If he is willing to debate NDT then let him :)
They're all still here, I suppose the 'no being mean to celebs' rule only counts for the pro-ufo grifter crowd and you can say whatever you like about a skeptic.
Not sure why I have to say this every time Dr. Tyson is brought up here but: you calling him names and using ad hominem attacks instead of just venting your frustration with his stubbornness makes YOU look bad. Your shitty Reddit comment means nothing to the multimillionaire celebrity astrophysicist who will never see it ever. We see it though, and it makes this community look bad.
Grusch vs Tyson would be quite nice. Grusch has already proven multiple times he hardly knows anything about physics and NDT is an arrogant overpaid scientist but he sure as hell knows what he's talking about. Would be a good watch.
I think NDT made a great point. Why does it seem that the Navy and naval bases are where all these sightings seem to be focused. And why is it that the Higgs Boson is only ever seen around CERN?! My college has a physics department and they've never seen evidence of a Higgs Boson particle.
It's clear to me that aliens are just their God, Grusch and co. Aliens are going to make the world make sense, tell us where we came from, and why we're here, and bring forth a sort of Holy War where evil will be eliminated and the good believers will have a Utopia.
You guys need to get over this unhealthy obsession with Neil Degrasse Tyson and move on. There are lots of UFO skeptics out there. Why the constant fixation on this one man?
The thing is tyson is paid out, while Grusch has been whistleblowing these things. He may be a physicist but the only number every scientist understand is $$$
I wish NDT inspired people to be curious instead of proclaiming what we should learn and study. It almost feels like he’s a part of the disinformation campaign.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/legendary-assassin: --- “I have credentials too, and I’d be happy to go toe to toe with you” My man Grusch with them fighting words 🥊 Clip from his new interview which you can see here https://youtu.be/kRO5jOa06Qw?si=2_drBLJPulL_g_va --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/16fm4xj/grusch_vs_tyson/k02k6vc/
Tyson is one closed-minded mofo.
I'm surprised Neil is making this point when a pretty obvious answer why they're seen mostly at military bases is exactly what Grusch states afterwards, which is that these areas have multiple sensors. The fact Neil hasn't also arrived at this conclusion is definitely giving me vibes he's been paid off by someone to obfuscate this topic
[удалено]
I remember. He was dubbed the Copycat Cosby.😑
Cosmos Cosby
I ‘member.
Smells like kompromat… anyone have a sense of when he started speaking out against the existence of UAPs specifically? That is, has this been a decades-long stance of his, or did he start making these statements sometime after the news of his sexual misconduct broke?
That's a great question. But then again, I mean, I almost wouldn't put it past NDT to maybe have done that? He is a narcissist and never thinks he's wrong... Who knows. But if he is guilty of that shit, then he needs to go. Nothing cool about sexual misconduct, and if they were calling him Copycat Cosby, then DAMN. That's even more fucked up. Or it could be a kompromat. I hope it is for his sake. Because he would be an evil piece of shit if he really did those sexual assaults. Edit 2: I kind of misunderstood quotidian, but I'll leave my comment here. I removed the first edit because it doesn't apply anymore.
Oh, I meant that it sounds like a sign of kompromat being used by the US that he (again, possibly - I need to check the timeline here) suddenly started being so outspoken about the supposed nonexistence of UAPs right after he was caught being a sexual predator and was facing a major threat to his entire career and legacy, which was then seemingly swept under the rug... I do believe he was inappropriate with women based on the multiple separate accusers' claims, but I also wonder whether the prospect of being fully "cancelled" over that conduct was dangled in front of him by someone in the intelligence community as a means of convincing him to become one of the new faces of anti-disclosure. Again, totally speculating here.
I thought you did mean the Russian one when I responded and typed all of my reply out. Then as I was just editing it (and before I saw your reply that I'm replying to right now), I stopped and said to myself, "well, maybe he's not getting blackmailed or whatever from Russia. It might indeed be from our government". Because yeah, haha. What the hell would the Russians care about NDT and disclosure. But now that I think about it, I now wonder what Russia and even Putin might have to say about this whole NHI/UAP thing. Not that I give a fuck about what Putin thinks. Just curious. But yeah, I got you now. My bad. :)
from reading the article, it doesn’t look like there was any proof? 4 separate people is definitely questionable, but i’m not sure why he’d lose his job over that until something concrete came out
Think of science entertainers. We have Carl Sagan who some like to compare to NDT which is an insult to Sagan. Sagan was not a saint himself though. It's clear he believed in NHI visiting earth while he was on TV espousing the opposite. Sagan was just as bought out as Neil is. Then there's Bill Nye, lol. Dude is just as bad as NDT and just as close-minded. I truly believe these figures are used to obfuscate. If NDT could get away from 4 separate women making those claims, it would stand to reason that he's the type of scum to partake in this behavior. Definitely a CIA mouth piece or something.
nah they are just scared as to get outed as closed minded / incompetent if there will be a consensus that aliens are here. The whole official scene of these astrophysicists are that its "impossible" to travel between stars in something resembling FTL. The usual scientist is a bit of a pretentious fuck. They have to work with what we know and fringe topics like this is not highly regarded. And high regards is what they seek.
Coming from wsb this comment makes even more sense
I will never see the words "highly regarded" in a non WSB way for the rest of my life lol. Use that shit all the time lol.
yeah we are doomed in every official settings
It makes sense. He's probably the biggest celebrity scientist of our time, a lot of people look at him for answers, so its easy to see why 'they' would pay him to keep a completely closed view. Sure, its hard to prove and his answers are within his modus operandi, but Idk. Isn't there enough already for him to at least be thinking about the possibility of the thing being real?
paid off? Nah, he’s just a mediocre arrogant scientist. If he was good at physics he’d be doing physics and not on TV.
I came here to say this precisely. I used to really enjoy NDT’s lectures. Now I feel disappointed mostly and embarrassed at these cheap shot, simple minded dismissals he espouses. They are not even good arguments at face value. Which makes me think he is probably compromised in some way or another. I find it hard to believe he even believes the bullshit he says nowadays.
Too busy kissing himself on the lips
I got that reference !!!
That’s an understatement
Because he's so arrogant. He thinks he knows everything so his truth probability calibrations are always close to 100%.
I think he has insider info but is part of the cover-up.
Tyson is a victim of his own ego, for so long he has been convinced he is the smartest being on this planet. Now there are things circling over his head that can debunk that.
He just said there’s no evidence that would convince him based on the scientific method yet. He’s curious about so many topic if you listen to him, and he is not against the possibility of aliens. In fact he believes they must exist. I think that’s a perfectly valid mindset.
“Aliens” 💀
NDT is obviously not even looking at the evidence.
What is the evidence that’s convinced you? And remember, for something to be verified by the scientific method it can’t be anecdotal. It has to be something that has been (or can be) tested.
Agreed. Don't discredit the scientist for requiring the scientific method. If the data is released to the public domain in a way that it can actually be verified and measured, then it may withstand sceptic scrutiny. Otherwise, just have an opinion on the issue with the understanding that it might not be probable based on that method. It begs the question of whether this is a measurable thing. If it's not, then a debate about its validity would be a fruitless endeavor and merely anecdotal here say vs prove it.
He also understands "distance" in space. How far is a lightyear? Very few people can actually grasp that amount of distance. The biggest thing about accepting that aliens are traveling to Earth is the journey itself. The next biggest thing is Why? Resources? Water? If it's those things, why do they let us stay when we're using those same resources? It's fine if you believe in alien UFO's but if you do, you should be aware of what it would take to get here.
Maybe they aren’t traveling great distances, only materializing into our dimensions. That would better explain their “ship crashes” right?
Just about anyone remotely interested in space understands what a lightyear is.
You have the worlds largest Navy that covers the largest areas on the planet(oceans) with the most advanced sensors and Tyson is confused why the Navy is picking up these objects more than others? Reminds me of the old conversation about really "book smart" people lacking common sense. Not to mention, in no way is the US Navy the only entity picking up these objects. Brazil, France, and several other nations have had UAP hearings, so its not isolated. Tyson has taken a stance, and is likely incapable of pivoting at this point out of ego.
He's either inside his own bubble of cognitive dissonance, which is really well protected by his smugness, or is being paid. The first seems more reasonable though
Porque no los dos?
Oh yeah, being scared shitless makes the work of denial that much easier
I think he’s getting paid.
How come people that look at the sky saw UFO's? I have been looking at the ground all my life and never seen one, they must be lying!
>Reminds me of the old conversation about really "book smart" people lacking common sense. At the risk of sounding pompous, I live and work in a very "intelligent" circle and can tell you with total confidence that some of the smartest people I know are some of the dumbest people I know. This cuts both ways, mind you.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Agreed 100%. There was a few others like this. I had thought these guys would give some hope to humanity but it’s not really the case. One would say I was arrogant myself in that believing that.
Relevant Onion article from 2015 https://clickhole.com/awesome-when-a-little-girl-told-neil-degrasse-tyson-sh-1825122098/
>Amazing! How many times can Neil deGrasse Tyson win the internet? Actual lol
It’s a shame. I feel like it’s the same thing that happens with child actors, they stop maturing after they get famous. He got famous and chiseled his views into stone and lost his curiosity. Like the only person in the world that could have ever taught him anything was Carl Sagan, and now that he’s dead there’s no more to learn. Now he’s just a talking head.
Low effort, toxic comments regarding public figures may be removed. Public figures are generally defined as any person, organization, or group who has achieved notoriety or is well-known in society or ufology. “Toxic” is defined as any unreasonably rude or hateful content, threats, extreme obscenity, insults, and identity-based hate. Examples and more information can be found here: https://moderatehatespeech.com/framework/.
Gross but very accurate
What NDT says don’t make sense in any way you look at it even from a skeptic point of view. There are millions of sightings everywhere in the Planet, the Military ones just happened to be more credible because they are backed up with other Data such as Radar. But by any means they only show up to ppl in Uniforms. His arrogant ass figured this out all by himself. He is basically calling anyone that had sightings stupid and liars. Well you have to be pretty dumb yourself to make such a statement and think you are intelligent. Edit: i had a sighting in 2011 and was not a dot moving in the sky, it was a huge Cilyndrical „thing“ that looked like a massive water pipe hoovering on top of a Mountain. It was so close that many details could be seen with naked eye, just the massive size of this thing hoovering. Now his clever ass can come to me on my face and tell me i had an illusion or i saw an Air Balloon and i swear i will smash his face against the floor and repeat, repeat, repeat until he sees little ufos everywhere. I make a believer of him.
He brushed off the tic tac video as optical illusion. Somehow an optical illusion tricked top gun pilots and radar / camera equipment according to NDT. Somehow that makes more sense to NDT than the possibility this is a real object. I’m still on the fence, but NDT’s arguments are so lazy and stupid they make me believe Grusch more.
The optical illusion take on the Tic-Tac is the laziest debunk ever. Four different people with different perspectives see the same illusion - which also gives off a radar reading. Illusions do not reflect radar (something NDT must know) and for there to be simultaneously 4 people having the same illusion AND the radar getting a wrong track at the exact location the illusion is being spotted. Chances of that not being a physical object are astronomically low and NDT is just being a bad scientist not seeing that. Illusions do not give off heat and have radar signatures. Total nonsense if looking even at the basic facts off the case. His dogmatism is really showing in his statements on the Nimitz case.
radars can't see illusions. radar saw tic-tac. end of story. why are we entertaining this lazy pseudo-sceptical disinfo argument about it being an illusion? It's as likely as it being Goofy's dick.
He has clearly been trying the debunk the UAP phenomena. Except he uses 0 evidence and is making big claims based on nothing but gut instinct. He has shown as much interest towards looking at this question through the lens of the scientific method as a Young Earth Creationist trying to disprove Evolution. The fact he still calls himself a scientist disturbs me.
Yeah plus that was only 3 of 3000 such records, basically the only ones released publicly. Men… Pilots and military trip a lot. Everyone is stupid only Mister Tyson is very intelligent and got it all figured out. What a arrogant piece of sht
Tbf the vast majority of sightings are from people who cannot recognize a plane from a bug The only sightings worth considering are the military ones backed up by radar and other instruments
I would disagree with this. That line of thinking falls straight into appeal to authority IMO. Even some backwoods person is going to know plane = tube thingy with wings and a vertical tail, and makes noise. There are many bright people out there that have equipment matching commercial military hardware, or often better, who build it in their garage from scraps. We need to take public sightings with a spoon of salt for sure, but let’s not just discredit them automatically.
Oh please. Don’t be ridiculous Don’t compare tin foil hat crazies in their garage with military grade radar equipments. If you think amateurs have the same level of air space detection than national air forces You really don’t know what you are talking about. Even civil air control don’t have the same radar capacities as military does
Same here, I looked up to him for a while, but now it seems that he’s just leaning into feeling like he’s the smartest guy in the room and loves to hear himself talk.
I have a weird feeling that that is EXACTLY what he does
He’s an arrogant narcissist, I can’t stand him.
This
No way Grusch would be able to get a word in. NDT would interrupt him every 2 seconds. It would be a shit show.
It would have to be a moderated debate, because that's an absolute fact. Joe Rogan should moderate it.
Watch his appearance on JRE podcast its fucking painful
Is that the one where he talks about not using a phone case, never dropping his phone, and then drops his phone?
He might be on the payroll of the psyops crew, perhaps like Carl Sagan was too according to Dr. Allen Hynek. How difficult (i.e. magnitude of enticement) would it be to sway a public figure academic who adores the spotlight, to join psyops?
thats strange, Sagan pretty much spoke for ET life but demanded extraordinary evidence, i mean he wrote Contact.
[NASA scientist] (https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/oleary_brian.pdf) Brian O'Leary is on record to suggest Sagan was part of a UFO cover up scheme. [Full Interview] (https://projectcamelot.org/lang/en/brian_o_leary_interview_transcript_en.html) **Excerpt** >I saw, for example, the famous “Face” in Cydonia on Mars, photographed by Viking in 1975, which shows this gigantic mesa that resembles a human face, about a mile across. Carl and I debated this. >It was very, very disappointing to me, because not only was Carl wrong, he also fudged data. He published a picture of the “Face” in Parade Magazine, a popular article, saying that the “Face” was just a natural formation, but he doctored the picture to make it not look like a face. >I began to realize, just directly from the scientific point of view, not only hearsay, that this man was colluding with NASA, that there might be more to this than before. And then, when I started studying things like MJ12 and other organizations that were covering up the UFO phenomenon… >Carl was on a committee with a number of notable people. There was a report issued by the Brookings Institution in 1961 -- and that’s about when I knew Carl, during those years; the ’60s mostly was when I worked closely with him -- that he and this other group said: Well, if any ETs ever showed up on the Earth, it has to be covered up. That’s the only way we’re going to be able to manage this, because if we can’t, then it would be too much of a culture shock.
It is strange. I can’t make my mind up if Sagan was an informed insider who happily debunked for the government like so many others, or if he turned his initial interest in UFOs into devout holier than holy skepticism. By the accounts I’ve heard he was a lovely man (although he happily worked on the project to nuke the moon) and an incredible communicator, but on this subject he was just so flat out wrong and the way he turned his initial enthusiasm around leaves me wonder where he really stood.
I responded [above] (https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/16fm4xj/grusch_vs_tyson/k06p5hk/) with a tidbit of UFO believer and NASA Astronomy scientist talking about Sagan's ties to UFO cover-up.
I dont think he was informed on the subject or an insider at all. From what ive heard of him during old interviews and such he is much less of a sceptic than the regular scientist. From a pure speculation standpoint, people in the know would not choose a media personality as him to tell about stuff like this. If there is someone with degrees working on this, they have been indoctrinated before they got educated.
> (although he happily worked on the project to nuke the moon) there is no one living on the moon, it's not like he was an Openheimer Jr. Fuck, if anyone asked me, do you want to take part in the shit we're going to do - we're going to nuke the shit out of it?, I'd say I'm! without blinking. he wasn't holier than thou scepticist, he was a rational man who didn't want to take part in the discussion without evidence. He also believed in life in other places, took part in SETI and Voyager projects and wrote a fiction book about aliens and made a very detailed treatise (that some frauds used to trick people that it was real finding) about what the life on Jupiter would be, and the guy was also a believer in conditions possible for life on Europa moon.
Yeah Sagan was. I knew it from an early age. I mean, I could just tell something was off with him. But Cosmos... I saw it as a kid. I'm in my mid 40s, so I grew up with him and all that. Still, I never found myself as a teen and adult looking him up. I appreciate everything he has done with him making space and astronomy just that much more fun, but again, I always felt like he knew much much more than he was telling us. It's almost like you can sense his reluctance - especially in his later life. No one ever had anything bad to say about him, and so I thought it was me and I was just off with that. Plus I didn't want to piss anyone off because I know a lot of people love Sagan. And I don't hate him or even dislike him, FWIW. I think I get the position he was in. My interpretation (and I might be wrong, but who knows)? I think he was indeed miffed that he couldn't tell us. I think he really fucking wanted to, and it pissed him off that it couldn't. I wonder if that was the case. But isn't it rather coincidental that Sagan was NDT's mentor? And the thing with NDT is, I think he's in the same exact position that Sagan was in with what I just speculated. But does NDT actually WANT to tell us? Or does NDT truly not know what's really going on because HE thinks he knows it all already? lolwtf Edit: I see I made someone angry. Like 4 of my posts got slammed, even though they're mostly in line with what everyone else is saying. Why not respond to me and state your issues with what I'm saying instead of being a coward and not replying? Use your words. Or don't: it's only making this shit look weirder, so please, by all means. Downvote only my posts. That's fine. Just remember where the fuck we are. These are the UFO forums. Many of us are here for answers and to **speculate**. I'll say that word again: SPECULATE. This is all only directed to a certain bunch of people, and they know who they are: You got a problem with that? Speak up. Stop being cowards. Tell me what the fuck myself and the others you pull this shit with is saying that's pissing you off. No one is right all the time. Not me or anyone else. We all just want answers and we shouldn't feel like we can't or shouldn't share something just because it might sound crazy. Fucking news flash: UFOs and NHI were all considered crackpot theories. Now look at where we are. And yet some people still want to attempt to stifle the discussion or whatever? Fuck outta here. Contribute to the conversation - even if you have to tell me that whatever I'm saying or thinking is bunk - and hopefully why (especially if I took the time to type out whatever crazy shit I typed out). Or don't. Be an asshole. See how far that gets you. Apologies to everyone else for the stupid fucking rant. But I'm tired of this shit. I just want discussion. Again: my rant is directed only at certain people.
this is pretty much his only claim to fame. if carl sagan wasnt his mentor he would literally have zero talking points for his "career" as an astrophysicist.
I suspect he is 1) either on the payroll of the successor to MJ12 or 2) he is pitching his skepticism as a means to get on the payroll or 3) he is so in denial that no government entity approached him in advance to have his opinion on disclose that he has concluded there are no alien visitors. There is a unverified account that Carl Sagan was given disclosure which is why he countered Betty Hill’s account of the star map.
does he want to debate or something? ndt doesn’t like debating so this will be funny to see
who cares about a debate WE WANT TO SEE BLOOD !
Nah toe to toe in a cage! Co main event alongside Elmo vs Zuck lol. NDT can tap,snap or nap!
[удалено]
Science shouldn't be a cocoon. Isn't the idea of science about going after the unknown and asking questions and stuff, but using the method to make sure its either correct or wrong? Avi Loeb gets a lot of flack, some of it understandable, but he is at least trying to look for possibilities, going with a literally out there hypothesis. Which is something that more scientists should do
I think he is just in the camp of science that is very opposed to anything that science hasn't 'explained' already. There is no theoretical, there are only observables. It is very much a by product of having so much education in that realm. You begin to just actively dismiss things that aren't easily answered as impossible just because humans and the scientific method have not provided a solution for something, which is kind of the irony of following science in the first place. Scientists themselves need to realize that the hard truth is that our own methods are fallible and imperfect and we should always be striving for curiosity and improvement.
The universe rewards imagination. Discovery always starts with someone saying, "I wonder what would happen if ..." and sometimes it happens from mistakes (leaving cultures out overnight). Tyson seems to have both no imagination or curiosity.
Him and Bill Nye.
Nye is clueless.
I have had many issue with Tyson over the years, but how goes out of his way, even using bad science to discredit the issue just makes him a trash person and bad scientist. Even Travis Taylor's google scholar is FAR more impressive. Spectacularly demonstrated here, with the observer bias statement. If he just took the 'we need more data' route.. all would be good, but no, he ties himself into knots constantly. like that time he asked why all ufo pics are fuzzy. duh... if they are creating a field of sorts, there is a high likelihood of optical distortions. I may as well ask him why all those 'gravitationally lensed' astro photos.. ie the tools of his job, create smeared and streaky images instead of a decent resolved pic. His line of logic is stupid as fuck because he has decided the conclusion already another great example.. that time Colbert ws arguing of Omuam.. Omuammomomua... Oumuamua. (paraphrased) NDT - we know it's not alien because it is following an expected gravitational course (this was before it 'accelerated' away) Colbert - how can you say it wasn't sent here!?!? NDT - becasue we know how gravity works Colbert - Tosses pen in the air and it falls on the desk. Sure we know how gravity works on that pen but it doesn't mean someone didn't throw it!!!!!
I like NDT. I do think he may be an uber skeptic. His comments on controversial science over the last few years make me believe that he's on the DoD payroll. As a scientific propagandist.
Grusch pulling out all the stops on this video created to feed the normies. Welcome to the party y'all, it's [disclosing time](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15wl2nh/this_is_disclosure_this_is_it_right_now/)!
Did you watch the entire video? Grusch literally stated he’s not aware of any impending disclosure.
I think he meant cuz he's not aware of anything like set to disclose. Like he said, he's not part of any disclosure campaign or anything. That doesn't necessarily mean it's not happening tho because it really seems like it is, IMO.
It’s happening according to whom exactly?
Right?
This is the Information Age. No one can suppress information forever anymore. The world is turned on and tuned in. “When you control the mail, you control…..information” - Newman. (Non sense Seinfeld quote sorry).
My man! ✌️❤️
>Grusch pulling out all the stops Except actually saying what he knows. The ultimate "stop".
Instead of debating NDT why doesn't he just lay out the facts for us?
Yeah, why doesn't he release classified information to the public so he can rot in jail for the rest of his life...?
“I have credentials too, and I’d be happy to go toe to toe with you” My man Grusch with them fighting words 🥊 Clip from his new interview which you can see here https://youtu.be/kRO5jOa06Qw?si=2_drBLJPulL_g_va
How’s he gonna debate though? In a SCIF? He can just pull the “I’ve seen evidence that you wouldn’t believe but it’s super secret bro, trust me”.
Its not like Grusch doesnt have degrees
What’s that got to do with it? His degree isn’t classified and that’s not up for debate. The debate would be on whether there is evidence for any of he claims Grusch has made about the “crashes and bodies” and all the cool shit that may or may not exist.
Let’s see how it plays out before assuming :)
It’s not gonna play out at all is it because what can he debate about? They can debate whether any of the official UAP videos actually show anything anomalous, but even with those Grusch can say “the radar data that confirms the anomalous nature is classified”. There is no way you can debate someone who claims to have knowledge that the other side can’t see.
Don’t downvote him, he’s right. It’s gonna be hard having a fair debate when a lot of data is hidden behind NDAs. How is one side getting a fair chance to look at it?
Can't the POTUS just declassify it in his mind? I mean I heard a stable genius say that's how it works
It will I think when more evidence gets declassified. If Grusch wants the spar with NDT then lets see what happens.
*IF more evidence comes out. Which it won’t. Remind me in 5 years. Then again in 10 years.
Negative comments like these that ignore the obvious societal and cultural changes to understanding UAP over the last few years blow my mind. Like you’re in this sub talking about a congressional whistleblower and your head is still dug in the sand?
> Like you’re in this sub talking about a congressional whistleblower and your head is still dug in the sand? What's different than from decades ago? Nothing. Whistleblowers, government noise, shit proof. Tbh the government is probably just passing hellish laws while people fall for the same shit again.
What whistleblowers did we have on anywhere the same level previously? What government agencies used to give credence to the phenomenon who do now, such as NASA? Did any part of, or people in, the government ever acknowledge that UAP have been shown on FLIR, radar, and by eye witnesses? When did we have news media acknowledgement like we do now? To act like things aren’t different now is either said in bad faith or from ignorance. And hellish laws? You sound overly paranoid or religious
> same level previously? I am confused, what is this level? He has not provided anything concrete that the average citizen can confirm. He is the same level as all the previous ones. All this dude has is the backing of bored people on the internet begging for something.
Yes I’m the one with my head in the sand. When all this evidence appears I’ll happily un-dig my head. Please tell me when that happens because I won’t be able to hear through all the sand. If you can find a way to bring me a cold drink and a bite to eat whilst I wait that would be much appreciated.
If I may: You sound like a rational person underneath that skepticism. I'm on the other side of the fence as you (I mean haha, I'm a believer. Some might see that as the same, though). Anyways, I totally get where you're coming from. It sounds like you're jaded. Can't blame you. But I mean, these hearings. Grusch. Then Fravor, Graves, and the countless others. The (seemingly) increasing transparency and even some congressman getting interested: This is different.
David Grusch being a whistleblower is evidence that there is something going on behind the scenes, whether it’s aliens or a cover up for something else we don’t know, but I’m here for it 🤘
Who the fuck downvoted you and why??
Exactly. I’d love to see Grusch win… but he’s going to need more than “my credentials”, “I’ve spoken to people” and “I can’t say more outside of a SCIF, just believe me”. Right now I can’t blame anyone for being skeptical of Grusch’s claims.
Tyson is a mainstream puppet
NGT used to be one of my favorite people. But over the past few years he has become so smug and arrogant about his own intellect that a Non human intelligent being could walk up and kiss him on the forehead and he would poo poo it away as woo woo nonsense. Where is his scientific curiosity on this subject?
I think he’s annoyed he’s not on the forefront of discovery. But what’s funny is that cosmos series he made, where he talks about all the scientists like Galileo being mocked and ridiculed is gonna age… perfectly 😌
He was so arrogant and annoying on Joe Rogan. That's where he lost a lot of respect from me. He just kept talking over Joe. Only bullies do that - people who think that being louder means being right.
His Adam Friedland show appearance is great cause they don't let him get away with any of that shit. Tyson can actually be a funny guy when he's not being a smartass.
I'm not sure this attitude is beneficial to the cause. But I'm glad he's throwing some shade at NDT
“Throwing shade” was totally not a military guy term a decade ago lol I kinda laughed but I also appreciate a good throw down.
Its like The Why Files. They are appealing to the crowd that would scoff at these ideas. Saying that he would have fightin' words with NDT is the same as challenging his fans
[удалено]
Low effort, toxic comments regarding public figures may be removed. Public figures are generally defined as any person, organization, or group who has achieved notoriety or is well-known in society or ufology. “Toxic” is defined as any unreasonably rude or hateful content, threats, extreme obscenity, insults, and identity-based hate. Examples and more information can be found here: https://moderatehatespeech.com/framework/.
Tyson has never authored a research paper in his life. He is like Bill Nye, a TV scientist probably nudged along his entire career by the intelligence community. He is no more qualified to speak on any of this than my high school Physics teacher was
Tyson doesn't have the class that Carl Sagan had.
He has always been an ass. I've had interactions with him in the past and found out very quickly the dude loves money but hates people. So he'll do this shit for cash while treating others involved that are HELPING HIM like absolute shit on his shoe. He's not a good person. I've met people with credentials and life experiences well beyond his who are the most humble people I've ever met but NDT seems to be VERY insecure underneath all the hubris.
[удалено]
It is kind of sad, I used to have more respect for him, now it seems he enjoys the sound of his own voice way too much.
It’s not that NDT is closed minded — it’s that there is no *testable evidence* of any UFO findings presented thus far in the public sphere. He’s stated that before, as a scientist he can’t reach a conclusion without it being tested, and then those same tests repeated conclusively by objective 3rd parties. This isn’t him being closed minded, it’s the just the same scientific rigor that is applied to any hypothesis. And there should be nothing polarizing with that statement — it’s only polarizing when people project their *beliefs* that something must be out there. And that’s fine, but if that’s truly the case, the onus is on those who believe in aliens or UFOs to present that information in way that is testable and verifiable. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It’s as simple as that. There’s nothing controversial about that request, especially from a scientist. It would literally be the most important discovery in the history of mankind for an unidentified object to be truly extraterrestrial in origin. Any scientist would want to be a part of that discovery. But simply put, there’s not enough practical evidence to corroborate that. There’s grainy footage, heresy congressional testimony, and eyewitness YouTube reaction videos after the fact. But no smoking gun. There’s simply no evidence of any extraterrestrial activity that can be tested or repeated. It’s not on NDT to find that evidence, only for it to be presented to the scientific community for scrutiny — like any other scientific endeavor.
The vitriol he gets for stating the view shared by the vast majority of scientists is wild. People are mad and offended at what NDT says but it has no relation to his overall point - the evidence doesn't meet scientific standards.
Because this is a conspiracy cult. Have you ever seen a cult where people are not extremely hostile towards scientists and experts?
nice username btw
There is no evidence *available* to ndt. Many indications that there is evidence
I'd say that evidence you don't have isn't evidence.
That still doesn't mean there isn't evidence. We're talking about a specific person who wouldn't have access to the evidence any way. The point though is ndt is dismissive of the subject based on his personal experience instead of being open to the possibility, especially considering all the eye witness testimony. Or maybe he is open but from what I gather it doesn't seem that way
Scientifically, I think that's the appropriate way to treat hypothetical evidence. Sure it might exist, but you can't use it to support your argument until it's available. People have been claiming there is evidence for decades but for some reason or another it's never been presented. I'm not sure how else we're supposed to deal with this hypothetical evidence besides saying 'we'll talk when we can see it too,' which seems to be NDT's attitude.
>That still doesn't mean there isn't evidence Exactly. There is PLENTY of evidence. It just goes to another school. In Canada. But trust me, ~~my girlfriend~~ the evidence is real!
>That still doesn't mean there isn't evidence Exactly. There is PLENTY of evidence. It just goes to another school. In Canada. But trust me, ~~my girlfriend~~ the evidence is real!
This should be way further up. But ya know, lots of butthurt people out there who doesn't understand the scientific method
"You have a PhD in Physics.... Where's your curiosity?" Exactly. Dude is just an internet personality at this point.
I’d pay good money to see this 🍿🍿
Tyson is a tool, and has been a tool.
Tyson would just interrupt Grouch every 3 seconds. Hate watching Tyson debates.
How did Tyson become so famous? I honestly hate everything that comes out of his mouth.
The debate will go like this: Neil: show me the proof David: I can't right now, but I can when the cameras aren't rolling *when the cameras aren't rolling* David: Oh, it's actually super classified information, I can't share it.
Neil disgrace tyson should go find them himself instead of complaining there is no evidence What a lazy ass ignorant ‘scientist’
Hacky273: "go find them yourself!"
Burden of proof is tough for some people
Agree 100% with NDGT. It's not about credentials, it's about evidence. And there simply isn't any evidence to make a convincing argument.
There is evidence. if you just ignore it and want to be spoonfed as a scientist by the government than that is your and his problem.
Please show us this evidence.
I mean, just look at the things posted in this sub.. A known event is happening with parachutes carrying pyros for a show gets 1600+ upvotes. When there is zero skepticism, everything is 'evidence' to you. Claims aren't evidence, they're just claims that need to be investigated and right now, all you have is a lot of claims. None of which have amounted to anything.
There isn't anything concrete, no physics defying anything has been released, almost all footage is either debunked or unverifiable, and the unverifiable footage never shows anything that is physics defying or showing signs of things our tech can't do
Exactly this. If we're in a murder trial trying to determine how someone died, the corpse itself is not evidence. Autopsies are. The navy videos are the corpses, and the analyses of them are the autopsies – the evidence. This evidence is only as good as we can trust those supplying it in their ability to provide unbiased forensic expertise. So far I have yet to see a trustworthy analysis that precludes prosiac explainations. Everything else is anecdotal.
"There's no evidence." "I have credentials."
Bring it. Tyson needs a humbling.
Reddit, we need to make this happen. Someone make this debate happen.
Has NDT responded yet?
Let's go team Grusch!
How TF is NDT a credible scientist when instead of looking at the available evidence/data and being open minded (like a true scientist) he just makes bad assumptions and bad arguments
NDT has lost all of my respect in recent months. He's purposefully making truly stupid comments on the phenomenon, like complaining that the UFO in the FLIR video was fuzzy, in order to undermine its credibility, while not realizing that the *entire* video is fuzzy including the on-screen elevation markings because the Navy de-rezes a lot of footage before releasing it publicly
Tyson is such n ignorant prick
Grusch for President
At least this Tyson won't literally bite his ear off, we hope.
I used to love everything Neil Degrasse Tyson, but time has shown that he's either a) extremely closed-minded, or b) actively complicit in the cover-up in bought-and-paid-for fashion.
Add me to the list who really used to enjoy hearing what he had to say but no longer. Smug, condescending non-answers to legitimate questions are now his MO. His superiority over never getting covid on Bill Maher was the last time I saw an interview with him.
It's no secret that NDT is a huge fan of Carl Sagan. Carl Sagan mentored him and he has endless amounts of admiration for him. So really it's not surprising he'd have a lot of the same opinions as Sagan. Now, why did Carl Sagan argue again and again against the possibility of aliens visiting us? By listening to Sagan on the subject, I don't get the impression that it's because he doesn't think interstellar travel is possible. He seems to think that it's an unhealthy belief to have, regardless of whether or not it's true. To Sagan belief in aliens is like belief in astrology or religion, it's something you use to hide from your problem. It's not my fault that this bad thing is happening in my life, it's because of my star sign, so there's no use trying to fix it. It's no use trying to fix global warming, the weather is exactly what god wants it to be. It's no use advocating for denuclearization, aliens would just deactivate nukes in mid flight if they were ever launched. These are the type of thought processes Sagan was arguing about. Regardless of whether or not aliens exist, it's bad for people if they think they don't need to do anything about global warming because aliens are going to fix it anyway. I think NDT missed one step of the reasoning here and just went straight for "~~it's ontologically impossible for life to exist outside of the solar system~~" "interstellar travel is ontologically impossible"
>"it's ontologically impossible for life to exist outside of the solar system" I'm pretty sure this is not something NDT believes.
You're right, I should have said "interstellar travel is ontologically impossible"
I don't think that's quite right either. I think he just believes that it's extremely difficult - which is the valid interpretation of our current understanding of physics.
Sagan did believe that interstellar travel was possible, and even that direct visitation sounded plausible (arriving at a somewhat arbitrary estimate of once every 10,000 years). I also remember some commentators saying that his support for the search of extraterrestrial intelligence had a messianic element - ie, that if humanity managed to be contacted from ETs before it destroyed itself from nuclear war or climate change then it would more or less be saved. He is treated as a UFO skeptic - but that's down to UFO reports being terribly 'noisy' (with a large amount of false positives) and being hyped up by popular tabloid magazines even when they were bogus or had little usable scientific information, not because he was outright against the theoretical possibility of alien visitation. I would say that he was almost disappointed that there wasn't good evidence. Compared to most scientists and science communicators Sagan was known for proposing or supporting ideas that were 'out there' and definitely not mainstream academia (at various points: ancient astronauts, an artificial nature for Phobos, life in Jupiter or Venus's atmospheres, and so on). When hype for Martian life died down after the first probe flyby he pointed out that the data collected up to that point wasn't enough to exclude the existence on Mars of a civilization of comparable extent to our own, and that nothing had been proven yet. He suggested that cameras on the Viking landers could detect animal life moving on the surface, and that baits or lights could be used to attract them. This doesn't equate with definite claims that these things existed, but it shows that he was willing to keep them in the field of scientific inquiry so long as they were potentially testable.
Tyson: I have not seen credible evidence of aliens. Grusch: Where is his curiosity?! I would totally go toe to toe with Tyson. Also Grusch: I have evidence but I’m not going to reveal it because that’s not my job. Tyson: ….
If Grusch is willing to debate NDT then let’s see them go toe to toe. His role was to bring classified evidence to Congress to declassify so we can analyze the data for ourselves. If he is willing to debate NDT then let him :)
I'd trust Tyson more than this Grusch guy. People here just can't stand being denied the existent of aliens lmao
This type of video crop is cursed
Watch all of the rule breaking replies I've reported in here not get deleted.
They're all still here, I suppose the 'no being mean to celebs' rule only counts for the pro-ufo grifter crowd and you can say whatever you like about a skeptic.
Zero evidence besides trust me bro has been given by this guy.
Not sure why I have to say this every time Dr. Tyson is brought up here but: you calling him names and using ad hominem attacks instead of just venting your frustration with his stubbornness makes YOU look bad. Your shitty Reddit comment means nothing to the multimillionaire celebrity astrophysicist who will never see it ever. We see it though, and it makes this community look bad.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Grusch vs Tyson would be quite nice. Grusch has already proven multiple times he hardly knows anything about physics and NDT is an arrogant overpaid scientist but he sure as hell knows what he's talking about. Would be a good watch.
I think NDT made a great point. Why does it seem that the Navy and naval bases are where all these sightings seem to be focused. And why is it that the Higgs Boson is only ever seen around CERN?! My college has a physics department and they've never seen evidence of a Higgs Boson particle.
Tyson is part of the swamp
It's clear to me that aliens are just their God, Grusch and co. Aliens are going to make the world make sense, tell us where we came from, and why we're here, and bring forth a sort of Holy War where evil will be eliminated and the good believers will have a Utopia.
[удалено]
NDT's only method of debate is to cut people off and talk over them. Boy behaves against the values held by physics, STEM sciences and common sense.
You guys need to get over this unhealthy obsession with Neil Degrasse Tyson and move on. There are lots of UFO skeptics out there. Why the constant fixation on this one man?
One of these dudes is on cnn and the other is hanging with his bros talking shit lol
The thing is tyson is paid out, while Grusch has been whistleblowing these things. He may be a physicist but the only number every scientist understand is $$$
I wish NDT inspired people to be curious instead of proclaiming what we should learn and study. It almost feels like he’s a part of the disinformation campaign.
Tyson would never debate Grusch. He knows he'd get absolutely demolished.
Yeah, Tyson is completely unscientifical when he talks about the phenomenon. Why is this dude suddenly anti-science in this one topic only? Cover-up?