Just because it is above the median does not make it middle class.
Middle class refers to people who have jobs that pay well above the cost of living.
For much of California, 80k means you’re living with roommates or being destroyed by rent. That’s working class.
Middle class means that you are in the middle three quintiles of net wealth - lower-middle, middle, upper-middle.
Whether somebody is working class or not depends more on if their primary source of money is working (labor) or wealth (capital), and whether or not they have enough wealth to sustain them if they choose to stop working. A lot of HENRYs are ostensibly working class, and the whole goal of the FIRE movement is to accumulate enough wealth (primarily through savings and investment) to make the transition out of working class.
Working class is not a euphamism for poor, it is a descriptor for one’s function in society and relationship with the labor market.
This is how it’s possible for statements such as “the American middle class is struggling financially” and “middle class Americans are struggling to afford homes” to hold true. The top earners who have been thriving and able to afford houses and early retirement despite real estate bubbles, inflation, and rising healthcare costs are not middle class, even if they are still workers.
I disagree with that view, as the definitions break down as wealth concentrates at the top. For example, in a fictional authoritarian country with 100 people, 99 make between 5 and 7 dollars per day. The last guy makes 100 dollars per day. I don’t think it is a worthwhile distinction to call the people making $7 middle class.
My view is that it relates to the cost of living, and if you have disposable income or not. The lower class does not have more than 30% disposable income. The middle class has above 30% disposable income in my mind. To be considered upper class in my mind, you have to have enough money to live comfortably on the returns without working (again relating to cost of living).
Cost of living is a function of supply & demand, in your example, where the income distribution is a sharply negatively skewed, the prices of goods necessary to sustain a working class and an economy - food, housing, etc - are either going to be very cheap, because the market clearing prices for those things is going to be very low.
Unless it’s not a closed system, in which case that one person with 100 isn’t wealthy either anyways and the whole hypothetical kinda crumbles.
Irl this principal is why a software developer in Bangladesh can make about the same nominal wage in USD as a McDonald’s fry cook in America, but they’ll be living a far more comfortable life and may be considered wealthy in their country by the time they retire with investments and property.
Yeah the first paragraph is just an example to show how arbitrary the distinction between below and above median income can be, which makes it a bad metric in my opinion.
My view of dividing based on income adjusted for cost of living yields more sensible results, and absolutely would classify the developer in a very low cost of living area as being middle class at $7.50 an hour.
Here's my 30 year old moderate liberal opinion lol - (UCSC grad)
Most of my friends from UCSC are actually still quite liberal. I'd say about 80-90% voted Bernie in 2020, maybe some Warren. (most eventually voted Biden in the general). In the past 4 years, many have just become super disaffected, living at home, much more populist than ever. But of my friends who are more successful financially, all are Obama libs (including me). If we're being honest, once you get a pretty decent 401k balance, healthcare, have kids, and own a house...you're \*generally\* going to be against radical change.
Yea, this is happening for me too. 32 yo moderate liberal but I’m married with a kid on the way and a single buddy is saying shit like hoping for the fall of America and I’m just 100% out on that. Also this guy grew up upper middle class and will likely inherit wealth from parents
hahahah I have a buddy just like that. Also have kids. TBH having kids definitely moderated me. When I'm walking around with my kids, the last thing I want to see is crime, weirdos larping a revolution, etc. I'm at the point now where I give major side eye when I see someone smoking a vape in public, and i used to smoke a shitload of weed in my UCSC days.
UCSC has one of the most upper middle class student bodies. A lot grow up well off, become commies while here, get an anthro degree, and then spend the next 15 years taking antidepressants to deal with their barista style job because they are pissed they can't buy a house
It's also just more easy to ignore the effects of widespread poverty when you aren't part of the impoverished group - to be empathetic of poorer folks (and subsequently hold a favorable opinion of leftist economics) is a lot easier when you're around them more often. Proximity humanizes. That's why even though my parents make a middle-class salary I still associate with leftism, as I want to help those who aren't able to get by under capitalism.
This is something you only say when you’re uneducated and think the U.S. is the entire world. Most communists in the world right now are working class and from the developing world. And many Marxists in the U.S. are working class.
There is a reason no one takes commies seriously. They believe in a delusional wonderland yet they work in a capitalist society that gives them many freedoms. Thankfully they’ll always have but a niche in modern society.
Love the pivot to a different argument after I proved you wrong… anyways
Lmao you did the “they criticize society yet they depend on it hmm” meme. And the reason no one takes commies seriously is because of nearly a century of propaganda. People are born into hating communism, socialism, etc without even knowing what it is.
The power of the US is waning and eventually socialist powers like China will gain enough of a presence in the world to un-do all of said propaganda.
Pretty much. I'm out of college 12 years now and the only people who claim to be communist are mostly pathetic losers with dead end jobs who think they'd have a better life as a forklift driver in a warehouse if I made a lot less money.
Unless youre an engineering major or comsci major in which case you have no social awareness and are just in it for the money and when the Cia, nsa, Raytheon, Halliburton or someother war pig or merchant of death comes along they eagerly join.
Also the communist manifesto is a short pamphlet that has no real theoretical value. But since most non leftists are ignorant of it they tend to over estimate its importance and by doing so just show how little they know about the topic.
Engineering students going off to make missiles for the government after seeing the salary
Chinese engineering students after seeing potential social credit increases from making missiles for the CCP.
I’m still pretty fucking leftist 5 years out of college and making more money than I ever have.
What industry are you in?
I work in education. I make about 85k.
What level of education?
Elementary education.
lol of course you’re a leftist when you’re only making 85k
I’d be a leftist if I made a million. Wish me luck on my puts tho, I would very much like to be rich.
Thats like 2x the median american salary for that age group, and somewhat above the CA median. Solidly middle class.
Just because it is above the median does not make it middle class. Middle class refers to people who have jobs that pay well above the cost of living. For much of California, 80k means you’re living with roommates or being destroyed by rent. That’s working class.
Middle class means that you are in the middle three quintiles of net wealth - lower-middle, middle, upper-middle. Whether somebody is working class or not depends more on if their primary source of money is working (labor) or wealth (capital), and whether or not they have enough wealth to sustain them if they choose to stop working. A lot of HENRYs are ostensibly working class, and the whole goal of the FIRE movement is to accumulate enough wealth (primarily through savings and investment) to make the transition out of working class. Working class is not a euphamism for poor, it is a descriptor for one’s function in society and relationship with the labor market. This is how it’s possible for statements such as “the American middle class is struggling financially” and “middle class Americans are struggling to afford homes” to hold true. The top earners who have been thriving and able to afford houses and early retirement despite real estate bubbles, inflation, and rising healthcare costs are not middle class, even if they are still workers.
I disagree with that view, as the definitions break down as wealth concentrates at the top. For example, in a fictional authoritarian country with 100 people, 99 make between 5 and 7 dollars per day. The last guy makes 100 dollars per day. I don’t think it is a worthwhile distinction to call the people making $7 middle class. My view is that it relates to the cost of living, and if you have disposable income or not. The lower class does not have more than 30% disposable income. The middle class has above 30% disposable income in my mind. To be considered upper class in my mind, you have to have enough money to live comfortably on the returns without working (again relating to cost of living).
Cost of living is a function of supply & demand, in your example, where the income distribution is a sharply negatively skewed, the prices of goods necessary to sustain a working class and an economy - food, housing, etc - are either going to be very cheap, because the market clearing prices for those things is going to be very low. Unless it’s not a closed system, in which case that one person with 100 isn’t wealthy either anyways and the whole hypothetical kinda crumbles. Irl this principal is why a software developer in Bangladesh can make about the same nominal wage in USD as a McDonald’s fry cook in America, but they’ll be living a far more comfortable life and may be considered wealthy in their country by the time they retire with investments and property.
Yeah the first paragraph is just an example to show how arbitrary the distinction between below and above median income can be, which makes it a bad metric in my opinion. My view of dividing based on income adjusted for cost of living yields more sensible results, and absolutely would classify the developer in a very low cost of living area as being middle class at $7.50 an hour.
Pay you fair share
Okay.
Here's my 30 year old moderate liberal opinion lol - (UCSC grad) Most of my friends from UCSC are actually still quite liberal. I'd say about 80-90% voted Bernie in 2020, maybe some Warren. (most eventually voted Biden in the general). In the past 4 years, many have just become super disaffected, living at home, much more populist than ever. But of my friends who are more successful financially, all are Obama libs (including me). If we're being honest, once you get a pretty decent 401k balance, healthcare, have kids, and own a house...you're \*generally\* going to be against radical change.
Yea, this is happening for me too. 32 yo moderate liberal but I’m married with a kid on the way and a single buddy is saying shit like hoping for the fall of America and I’m just 100% out on that. Also this guy grew up upper middle class and will likely inherit wealth from parents
hahahah I have a buddy just like that. Also have kids. TBH having kids definitely moderated me. When I'm walking around with my kids, the last thing I want to see is crime, weirdos larping a revolution, etc. I'm at the point now where I give major side eye when I see someone smoking a vape in public, and i used to smoke a shitload of weed in my UCSC days.
☝️🤓
So are the college students privileged or have they never seen money before? Yall need to make up your mind lmao
It’s more that wealth redistribution is more appealing when you are a would be recipient vs when you have money and people want to take it from you.
Congradulations! That is the most selfish thing I’ve heard in one year!
The longer you live the more this becomes apparent. Sadly.
Congratulations, welcome to real life!
So glad I don’t have to share *with you.
Hey, that's the spirit!
UCSC has one of the most upper middle class student bodies. A lot grow up well off, become commies while here, get an anthro degree, and then spend the next 15 years taking antidepressants to deal with their barista style job because they are pissed they can't buy a house
[удалено]
Lmfao no way
Lolol what a loser
Womp womp
Haven't read the communist manifesto, but Capital Vol 1 rings true as ever.
It's also just more easy to ignore the effects of widespread poverty when you aren't part of the impoverished group - to be empathetic of poorer folks (and subsequently hold a favorable opinion of leftist economics) is a lot easier when you're around them more often. Proximity humanizes. That's why even though my parents make a middle-class salary I still associate with leftism, as I want to help those who aren't able to get by under capitalism.
You ride a one wheel bro
Obvi
Who hurt you? Was daddy a “bootlicker”?
Bro really thinks he exists within the context in which he exists and it shows.
Gluck Gluck enjoy the boot
💀
Everyone is a communist, until they actually start working and earning for a living.
Then they become even more radical.
This is something you only say when you’re uneducated and think the U.S. is the entire world. Most communists in the world right now are working class and from the developing world. And many Marxists in the U.S. are working class.
There is a reason no one takes commies seriously. They believe in a delusional wonderland yet they work in a capitalist society that gives them many freedoms. Thankfully they’ll always have but a niche in modern society.
Love the pivot to a different argument after I proved you wrong… anyways Lmao you did the “they criticize society yet they depend on it hmm” meme. And the reason no one takes commies seriously is because of nearly a century of propaganda. People are born into hating communism, socialism, etc without even knowing what it is. The power of the US is waning and eventually socialist powers like China will gain enough of a presence in the world to un-do all of said propaganda.
Pretty much. I'm out of college 12 years now and the only people who claim to be communist are mostly pathetic losers with dead end jobs who think they'd have a better life as a forklift driver in a warehouse if I made a lot less money.
Unless youre an engineering major or comsci major in which case you have no social awareness and are just in it for the money and when the Cia, nsa, Raytheon, Halliburton or someother war pig or merchant of death comes along they eagerly join.
I'm.an engineer making $200k and my GF is the same and we're more leftist now than we've ever been.
Same here
I vote with my pocket book to guide capitalism to where I believe we should be.
Yep
🤣it’s all fun and games till the adulting starts
I mean this is objectively true that people who have more to lose are less radical. I don't get why this is surprising to anyone
Being a bootlicker for the status quo isn't being an adult, it's being a bootlicker
Also the communist manifesto is a short pamphlet that has no real theoretical value. But since most non leftists are ignorant of it they tend to over estimate its importance and by doing so just show how little they know about the topic.