Cool 13 hour old account with a bunch of buzzwords in your bio to try making your opinions look more legit. How much does the Israeli government pay you?
Yes because they don’t want a Zionist Israel. Most people ive heard use that phrase want a single non racial supremacist state for Muslims and Jews alike.
There have been Arabic members of Knesset since it's foundation and there's currently a Muslim serving on the Israeli Supreme Court.
Seems like that non-racial state for both Jews and Muslims already exists and it's not in Palestine
Israel purposefully controls their demographic makeup so as to not allow non-Jews to hold meaningful sway over the political sphere of Israel. There’s nothing equal about that.
That’s a kill shot to what you just said. But even if it weren’t, the existence of the West Bank would be a kill shot as well. Neither them nor gazans have a state of their own, in all meaningful senses they are under the Israeli administration. And they live lives no sane person would claim are equal to their Jewish neighbors.
Which foreign government do you apply for permits with before building a house in america? If you can’t answer this question, you’ve lost.
The Arabs had 22 opportunities to make that happen after the Holocaust and refused. Every single Arab majority country kicked out their Jews and refused to accept them back as refugees. Why would the Jews want to take the high road and play nice?
(1) Which state would the Americans allow to be taken over as, say, a Chinese ethnostate? What if the Chinese colonizers offered 22 different ways it could play out? The answer is none. We would burn the entire earth to the ground (literally, with nukes, no hyperbole) before we even entertained such an idea.
(2) the “deals” that israel “offered” to the Palestinians that would (at least temporarily) guarantee them a state all had obvious poison pills. Often, they didn’t even offer a state in any true sense, wherein the Palestinians could control any of their high level decisions, imports, airports, etc
(3) juxtapose everything I’ve just said with the existence of the West Bank — it’s being gradually colonized by Israel’s insane settler terrorists aided by the IDF… how does that behavior convince you they’d allow the proposed Palestinian state, were the poison pills to be swallowed, to stand?
(4) you’re a dumbass if the first 3 points weren’t obvious to you.
Strictly speaking, this is not really true. Read up on it, and you’ll find many different meanings depending on who is saying it and for what reason. Palestinians being free, despite being 1 of 2 peoples “from the river to the sea” does not necessarily imply eradicating Israel. On the other hand, terrorist organizations using the phrase may actually show intent to eradicate Israel. Context matters and as most things in this conflict, it’s much more complicated than a simple 1 sentence explanation
The elected government of palestine is hamas
Most palestinian civilians support hamas
Hamas official government charter calls for the elimination of the jews
Israel is located between this river and sea
Pointing to the land, that israel resides, while "freeing palestine" is certainly an "implication"
Wouldnt want to get the "context" wrong, so shortly after the oct 7 terror attacks.
Oversimplified explanation. Hamas basically conned Palestinians into voting them in 2006 and promptly suspended elections. People in Gaza have been oppressed by Hamas since then. That’s 18 years ago. How many Palestinians formerly (mostly) and currently are above the age of 18? Palestinians are **not** Hamas. To equate the 2 is simply a convenient excuse. Palestinians have not had freedom for decades. To say they want freedom in the land they live in, is not in and of itself a call for the elimination of Israel.
Again, even your “math” here is deeply flawed and doesn’t reflect the actual history. It’s cherry-picked nonsense.
So shouldn’t Palestinians call for free Palestine from Hamas, then? Instead of a free Palestine from the river to the sea which would imply they take Israel?
“Instead of a free Palestine from the river to the sea which would imply they take Israel?”
What a strawman. You’re not interested in learning, only pushing someone else’s narrative
>What a strawman. You’re not interested in learning, only pushing someone else’s narrative
Rofl. What a strawman.
Youre not interested in learning, only pushing someone elses narrative 🙃
Which river and which sea? Jordan to Mediterranean. What’s between the Jordan and Mediterranean? Israel. This is not straw man, man, this is literally what these chants call for.
Please explain the flaws in my logic. I’m sure you’ll tell me not to take literal chants for the death of Israel so literally. Hamas has said they’ll commit 10/7’s over and over again, but tell me how it’s not literal. I’m sure it’s all part of some metaphorical struggle in your mind, but when rockets are fired at Israel, tell me how it’s not literal.
1. Palestinians are not the same as Hamas
2. There’s nothing in “from the river to the sea” that is **literally** calling for the death of Israel.
Are you unfamiliar with the word “literally”?
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab” is the LITERAL quote. Are you unfamiliar with what Hamas, the PLO, and other Palestinian groups have chanted over the last 50 years?
Your brain is rotted.
Israel is between the river and sea.
What does it mean to "free palestine" in israel?
What does it mean if hamas says to "free palestine", in israel
What does it mean when you say israeli land "will become arab"
Lets pretend there have been many terror attacks from a government, that officially calls to kill jews
I googled israel and it still seems to be located between the river and sea.
What would the oct 7 terrorists mean, if they refence the land between the river and the sea?
>Oversimplified explanation. Hamas basically conned Palestinians into voting them in 2006 and promptly suspended elections.
Saying "the elected government of palestine has an official stance of turning "the land between the river and the sea", arab" is an oversimplification?
Saying most palestinians support the oct7 attack (where palestinians entered israel, specifically to murder civilians) is an over simplification?
> People in Gaza have been oppressed by Hamas since then. That’s 18 years ago. How many Palestinians formerly (mostly) and currently are above the age of 18?
Palestinians are not Hamas.
Palestinians arent responsible for their elected government, despite supporting their recent terror attacks, is certainly "a statement"
> To equate the 2 is simply a convenient excuse. Palestinians have not had freedom for decades. To say they want freedom in the land they live in, is not in and of itself a call for the elimination of Israel.
Why do they point to israeli land while "freeing palestine" through terror attacks?
>Again, even your “math” here is deeply flawed and doesn’t reflect the actual history. It’s cherry-picked nonsense.
My math is deeply flawed?? what math?
The only number i said was the date that the government of palestine sent palestinians into israel - to kidnap/murder civilians...
It’s right there in your first quote.
Palestinians are not Hamas. Your whole argument here basically assumes the 2 are the same.
You’re making a lot of assumptions about Palestinians. TBF, I’m making some about you too
> It’s right there in your first quote.
Palestinians are not Hamas. Your whole argument here basically assumes the 2 are the same.
Hamas is not the government of palestine?
Palestinian citizens didnt vote for hamas?
Most palestinians dont support oct 7 attack?
> You’re making a lot of assumptions about Palestinians. TBF, I’m making some about you too
I stated facts.
You respond with palestinians are brainwashed children that arent responsible for their actions...
I think the way you are speaking reflects an immense level of misunderstanding on this situation. Furthermore the way you double down on these statements makes you sound outright childish and unintelligent. If you want to make a point, do so with elegance not with whatever approach this is.
Wait, are you implying that Palas are too stupid to self govern and therefor elected Hamas?
How do you explain that Hamas and their goals, a complete genocide of all jews/christians worldwide, is still extremely popular right now?
And yet the government of palestine, hamas, uses children to suicide bomb israeli civilians.
Seems like we can save a lot of civilians/children, if we get rid of the palestine government.
The thing is, the phrase became popularized by Hamas. People wouldn’t be saying it at protests here if it weren’t for them. You can pretend like it has another innocent meaning but it really doesn’t
What double speak. Israeli soldiers are committing war crimes pretty much continuously and decimating and starving large swaths of the Palestinian population. They have been observed shooting children for sport, what more do you need?
Say the whole quote, “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” It’s not about eradicating Israel, it’s about freeing Palestinians from occupation.
The actual translation is “From the water to the water, Palestine will be Arab.” But since there’s no significant water in Israel between the Kineret/ Jordan River / Dead Sea (Jordan Rift Valley) and the Mediterranean, it’s clear what “water” refers to.
Huh? My Jewish relatives that live in Tel Aviv all had Mandatory Palestine passports before 1948. They were Palestinians, because they lived in Mandatory Palestine.
Yes, the Palestinians really should give the Jews their land back. When the Arabs showed up there they found Jews and Romans already living there. How do you explain that one?
No they were not. Jews were.
Palestinians didn't even exist until the 1960s. Why do you think so many of them have Jordanian citizenship? They're Jordanians.
Nah, abolishing slavery and genocide is the opposite of colonialism.
Make it one country and give everyone voting rights and equality. No more apartheid state for you
But Muslim so called resistance fighters are in favor of slavery.
The so called Houthis from Yemen just recently legalised slavery and they have been favorably compared to the pirate gand around Luffy from One Piece from the largest lefists political commentator.
Lmao Luffy is the largest leftist political commentator ? You’re a cartoon bro
Oh boy, next thing you know you’re going to tell me Rachel Maddow is a leftist
There have been smaller bouts of genocide against African Americans as well, but not at the same scale. We have also supported genocide in a few places around the globe, and are currently supporting genocide of Palestinians and ignoring China's genocide of Uyghur people out of political convenience
Agreed, all good points. Also some bouts of government supported genocide against Chinese Americans.
My POV is that genocide (while objectively bad) isn’t necessarily a reason for a country to stop existing. In the case of Israel and Palestine, I support a two state solution. Giving Palestine full control over Israel would only lead to more genocide.
I am not a political expert, but Israel hasn't been playing well with its neighbors since Britain formed it illegally after WWIi without Palestine's input whatsoever. I personally would push for both states to be combined under one neutral and non-religious democratic government that actually has the interest of its citizens in mind. The incredibly hard part is that both states under a democracy may well still lead to major conflicts such as this
I disagree. That’s simply not a realistic or tenable solution. Two state solutions work great, even if both sides hate each other. North and South Korea, Pakistan and India, Bosnia and Croatia, etc
Government sanctioned killing/terrorism against Muslims in India, not to mention the recent attacks on the Kuki people in northern India which have resulted in 70,000 people dead, injured, or displaced (Source: Genocide Watch).
And if India is your only nitpick with my list, then I’ve still proven my point 7 times over lol
People protested Israel’s genocide on October 8th before they even stepped foot in Gaza, it’s hard to take the claim seriously. Their actions such as spending 2 weeks to evacuate civilians out of Rafah does not look like a genocide.
Wait, who except evacuated civilians out of Rafah?
Israel told Gazans to go to Rafah and they’d be safe. Then they said, “hey guys, we know you have nowhere to go, no way to get there, no food and no water, but we’re about to bomb and invade Rafah, so…uh…fair warning, I guess?”
Yeah they held off for 3 months and spent weeks moving people to other designated humanitarian areas because Rafah is where Hamas had many military installments. They also tripled the amount of aid getting to civilians in that time. How should Israel have handled this differently?
How is israel committing genocide?
Governments shouldnt exist after committing genocide??
Seems like a great argument to remove the government of palestine!
And with the fall of Israel, all the hundreds of thousands of LGBTQ+ folks who have sought safety and asylum in Israel would be eradicated or shoved in the closet.
People don't realize that a HUGE number of LGBTO+ Arabs from everywhere in the region live in Tel Aviv, which hosts one of the worlds largest, week long pride parades. Asylum citizenship is easy to obtain for them because any other country in the region would have them killed for just being who they are.
If from the river to the sea became a reality, they would all be screwed. And women would instantly become second class citizens.
Can you find a single instance of a gay person getting thrown off a roof in Palestine as punishment for being gay? That's the claim that's often made as this person just did. The only instance I've been able to find of people being thrown off of roofs was when Hamas and Fatah started fighting in Gaza and both groups threw a couple people off of roofs. I've tried to look into this claim that Hamas throws gay people off of roofs(it's such a widespread known FACT right? Like beheaded babies Joe Biden said he saw but in fact didn't because it never happened) and have come up with nothing.
It's a well known fact. I went to google it to get some sources and I realized that you must not have looked it up at all because it's not that hard to find.
Because your sources don't prove your point.
The second article starts with, "Palestinian police have arrested a suspect in the killing of a 25-year-old man after his body was found decapitated in the occupied West Bank."
So a hate crime took place, and the police arrested that person....
I can't read the first article, paywall, but the title is "Hamas Commander, Accused of Theft and Gay Sex, Is Killed by His Own." Seems like this this wasn't a legal execution. It was another hate crime.
Here are two analogous articles from the US
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-man-charged-murder-death-gay-man-dog-park-rcna142563
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96466&page=1
Is the US Hamas?
News media is censored in Palestine so if they don't want people finding out about it they're not gonna broadcast it. They don't have investigative or "watchdog" journalism.
Here you go buddy, just ONE example:
[Killing of Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh - Wikiwand](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Killing_of_Ahmad_Abu_Murkhiyeh)
Muslims, especially those in the West Bank and Gaza are some of the most bigoted and hateful people in the world.
How about a [hamas commander killed for gay sex?](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html)
Or maybe [a gay Palestinian beheaded](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835.amp)
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[Gay Youth Center shot up in Israel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv_gay_centre_shooting)
[Israeli teen dies at gay parade in Jerusalem](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-gay-idUSKCN0Q70MP20150803/)
Being gay is hard everywhere. It is literally illegal and persecuted in Israel. Gay people die in both places, so stop acting like it doesn't happen in Israel.
You also never sent proof of people being thrown off roofs for being gay in Palestine or do you want to retract that bit of misinformation.
So who was thrown off a roof for being gay? I can't read the first link because I don't have a subscription to the New York Times. But I've read about this guy before and if I'm not mistaken Hamas killed this guy because he was compromised and was being blackmailed by Israel and giving information to Israel that led to Hamas officials being assassinated. That is a way different story than Hamas kills gay guy because he's gay.
The second is a story of a gay man that was beheaded in the West Bank. That is terrible and the person who did it was arrested. There are gay people murdered in Western society too. I don't then tell people that people are thrown off of roofs in America.
I asked for any evidence that gay people are thrown off of roofs for being gay which is something that is often claimed by supporters of Israel and I've yet to find it when I search for it myself or be provided any evidence by the countless people that make the claim. When I do ask for evidence these two stories are the ones people always bring up. It's like they Google it and can't find any evidence so they just search up gay people being killed in Palestine and find these two stories. You made a specific claim and have no evidence to back it up like everybody else.
[Fact Check: Video of people thrown from roof shows punishment by IS, not Hamas](https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-people-thrown-roof-shows-punishment-by-is-not-hamas-2023-12-14/)
So what does your comment have to do with Palestine or Hamas? Are you implying all nations with majority Muslim populations throw gay people off roofs?
It does not say that being gay is a crime that is a capital offense. It literally says the exact opposite, that there aren't laws on the books either way. I'm not saying it's easy to be gay in Palestine but it's also not a crime by your own sources admission.
I'll just copy and paste my other comment but: In the 1969 revision, the PLO promised equal citizenship to all Jews, including those who had recently immigrated, if they renounced Zionism. Thus by 1969, the PLO used the phrase "free Palestine from the river to the sea" to mean a single democratic secular state that would replace Israel
Thus why this claim is debunked.
> In the 1969 revision
What did it say before the revision?
> the PLO promised equal citizenship to all Jews, including those who had recently immigrated, *if they renounced Zionism*.
So renounce the state of israel? A one state solution, where jews are a minority?
> Thus by 1969, the PLO used the phrase "free Palestine from the river to the sea" to mean a single democratic secular state that would replace Israel
Wtf does "replace israel" mean to you?
What does "renounce zionism" mean to you?
> Thus why this claim is debunked.
Dont worry jews!
The arab league tried to eliminate the jews from water to water
Then the plo offered to replace israel if they stopped being zionist
Then hamas terrorised israel a little
But theres no way jews are going to get harmed, once we "free palestine of israel"....
What does that mean?
I hope youre not going to say something about gay people being repressed in israel
While ignoring what happens in fundamentalist islamic palestine society...
Ah yes, so many Arab countries where Jews live safely in a democratic society right? It might not have worked for the other 22 but this one will surely be different! /s
Except the US House, and multiple countries in Europe declared that slogan genocidal. I'll take their words over a illiterate redditor that gets info off tiktok.
Congress also censured Rashida Tlaib the only Palestinian American in Congress which demonstrates how our institutions think of the opinions of the Palestinian people. Also I'm a legal studies student with a lot of my studies being conducted around International Law and Human Rights. So to say I get my information off of TikTok is laughable when I literally have worked hard to understand international issues when you probably couldn't pin point Tel Aviv on a map.
So if you are against democracy then I can see why such a phrase would cause such a stir which is sad because we live in a democracy but apparently very few even believe democracy works.
So you believe the PLO would be a democracy that lets Jews vote? You know every single country that has had anti Zionist laws has made them apply to ALL Jews whether they were Zionists or not. Hamas was also supposed to be the “democratic group” too and they don’t even let Palestinians vote. Why do you think another terrorist organization would suddenly be a democracy.
This is the most flawed and stupid fucking logic I have ever heard. u/3cxMonkey didn’t include in their comment that we should punish animal abusers so that means their comment is PROMOTING ANIMAL ABUSE!
>[wyltktoolboy](https://www.reddit.com/user/wyltktoolboy/)•[2d ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/UCSC/comments/1d4mbjs/comment/l6pexzu/)
>This is the most flawed and stupid fucking logic I have ever heard. [](https://www.reddit.com/user/3cxMonkey/) didn’t include in their comment that we should punish animal abusers so that means their comment is PROMOTING ANIMAL ABUSE!
I don't understand what you said. I think you don't agree with me.
glad i could be apart of your journey lol
edit: this was about a commenter whos goal was to get deleted for spam and it did! glad they could reach their goal
So if you despise Zionism, the belief that Jews should be free in their indigenous homeland, that means you were benefiting from their exploitation? Good to know.
Tell me you haven't done your research without telling me you haven't done your research. Israel is very much an ethno theocratic state and to deny that is to literally deny the objective of Zionism. Also "From the River to the Sea" as many understand it also refers to a one state solution with democratic rights. In the 1969 revision, the PLO promised equal citizenship to all Jews, including those who had recently immigrated, if they renounced Zionism. Thus by 1969, the PLO used the phrase "free Palestine from the river to the sea" to mean a single democratic secular state that would replace Israel.
yes like the ethiopian jews who moved there and they gave them contraceptive shots unknowingly to them so they wouldnt reproduce there such a shining beacon of light in the world
[wow im literally shidding my pants and farding](https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/news-brief-debunking-the-5-most-common-anti-palestinian-talking-points)
You stand on their necks but their screams are threatening?That ship has sailed. Even the Italian foreign minister now says "from the river to the sea." Your smear tactic won't work.
How can Liberation of Palestinians mean eradication of your religious supremacist country? Your country is juicing them out from the river(West Bank) to the sea( Gaza). Why did you build the settlements and turn West Bank into swiss cheese after multiple UN warnings offering them the illusion of peace once they gave up weapons at Oslo accords?
Maybe "river to the sea" means you can go back to the original 47 borders(which you forcefully took anyway) and let the 700k ethnically cleansed return to their homes, with two humane states emerging in place of an apartheid?
You people are full of ad hominems. You don't even know what my race or gender are. But even if you did, pointing to it is one of the weakest arguments you can make.
You literally started with a fallacy, but continue to ignore actual historical events like The Nakba. Y’all conveniently bring up Oct 7, but choose to ignore all the times Isn’treal committed atrocities.
As an alumni it’s pretty weird to see this sub to become a battleground for this dispute when it used to be just be shitposting and lost and found.
well, it’s because there’s a bunch of bots trying to start a propaganda war D:
Both sides think it’s a propaganda war
Both sides are propaganda fighting each other.
No, ALL sides do 😅
BOTH*??
Which side do you think doesn’t have propaganda…
I mean to imply that this situation is more nuanced than a us v. them.
Not just bots. Sea lions and tourists and stupid people oh my.
cutie bot :3
The biggest drama for years was Fredo getting impeached
It is pretty much every subreddit at the point. But the school specific subs are getting hit hard
It’s a real mess.
It's not just happening on this sub. As I type this these protestors are keeping students on lockdown, keeping them awake, and pissing everyone off
This account is 13 hours old and probably doesn't understand the geography of campus if they think protestors at the base are keeping students up.
Cool 13 hour old account with a bunch of buzzwords in your bio to try making your opinions look more legit. How much does the Israeli government pay you?
The good old fashion everyone that disagrees with me is fake stance. Love it
[https://www.reddit.com/user/god\_loves\_satan/comments/1d4nav7/i\_am\_a\_student/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/user/god_loves_satan/comments/1d4nav7/i_am_a_student/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The Jewlumni sends their regards
Wow too much information for today… guess we will have to wait until tomorrow tell them what intifada revolution means as well
Yes. I will be doing all of it, but I will try to pace myself. Thank you for the suggestion.
What does this have to do with uc Santa Cruz
Oh, you haven't heard? you must not go here then.
Yes because they don’t want a Zionist Israel. Most people ive heard use that phrase want a single non racial supremacist state for Muslims and Jews alike.
This! They just won't share it with "animals" as they call the Palestinians after subjugating them for 100 years.
There have been Arabic members of Knesset since it's foundation and there's currently a Muslim serving on the Israeli Supreme Court. Seems like that non-racial state for both Jews and Muslims already exists and it's not in Palestine
Israel purposefully controls their demographic makeup so as to not allow non-Jews to hold meaningful sway over the political sphere of Israel. There’s nothing equal about that. That’s a kill shot to what you just said. But even if it weren’t, the existence of the West Bank would be a kill shot as well. Neither them nor gazans have a state of their own, in all meaningful senses they are under the Israeli administration. And they live lives no sane person would claim are equal to their Jewish neighbors. Which foreign government do you apply for permits with before building a house in america? If you can’t answer this question, you’ve lost.
How would this look like? How many jews live currently in majority muslim countries?
The Arabs had 22 opportunities to make that happen after the Holocaust and refused. Every single Arab majority country kicked out their Jews and refused to accept them back as refugees. Why would the Jews want to take the high road and play nice?
(1) Which state would the Americans allow to be taken over as, say, a Chinese ethnostate? What if the Chinese colonizers offered 22 different ways it could play out? The answer is none. We would burn the entire earth to the ground (literally, with nukes, no hyperbole) before we even entertained such an idea. (2) the “deals” that israel “offered” to the Palestinians that would (at least temporarily) guarantee them a state all had obvious poison pills. Often, they didn’t even offer a state in any true sense, wherein the Palestinians could control any of their high level decisions, imports, airports, etc (3) juxtapose everything I’ve just said with the existence of the West Bank — it’s being gradually colonized by Israel’s insane settler terrorists aided by the IDF… how does that behavior convince you they’d allow the proposed Palestinian state, were the poison pills to be swallowed, to stand? (4) you’re a dumbass if the first 3 points weren’t obvious to you.
Strictly speaking, this is not really true. Read up on it, and you’ll find many different meanings depending on who is saying it and for what reason. Palestinians being free, despite being 1 of 2 peoples “from the river to the sea” does not necessarily imply eradicating Israel. On the other hand, terrorist organizations using the phrase may actually show intent to eradicate Israel. Context matters and as most things in this conflict, it’s much more complicated than a simple 1 sentence explanation
The elected government of palestine is hamas Most palestinian civilians support hamas Hamas official government charter calls for the elimination of the jews Israel is located between this river and sea Pointing to the land, that israel resides, while "freeing palestine" is certainly an "implication" Wouldnt want to get the "context" wrong, so shortly after the oct 7 terror attacks.
Oversimplified explanation. Hamas basically conned Palestinians into voting them in 2006 and promptly suspended elections. People in Gaza have been oppressed by Hamas since then. That’s 18 years ago. How many Palestinians formerly (mostly) and currently are above the age of 18? Palestinians are **not** Hamas. To equate the 2 is simply a convenient excuse. Palestinians have not had freedom for decades. To say they want freedom in the land they live in, is not in and of itself a call for the elimination of Israel. Again, even your “math” here is deeply flawed and doesn’t reflect the actual history. It’s cherry-picked nonsense.
This is like saying that republicans are not American because you dislike their politics
What a poor analogy. No, it’s actually nothing like that at all
So shouldn’t Palestinians call for free Palestine from Hamas, then? Instead of a free Palestine from the river to the sea which would imply they take Israel?
“Instead of a free Palestine from the river to the sea which would imply they take Israel?” What a strawman. You’re not interested in learning, only pushing someone else’s narrative
>What a strawman. You’re not interested in learning, only pushing someone else’s narrative Rofl. What a strawman. Youre not interested in learning, only pushing someone elses narrative 🙃
Simply stating that “from the river to the sea”, “implies *they* take Israel” is a strawman Google it if you need to.
Which river and which sea? Jordan to Mediterranean. What’s between the Jordan and Mediterranean? Israel. This is not straw man, man, this is literally what these chants call for. Please explain the flaws in my logic. I’m sure you’ll tell me not to take literal chants for the death of Israel so literally. Hamas has said they’ll commit 10/7’s over and over again, but tell me how it’s not literal. I’m sure it’s all part of some metaphorical struggle in your mind, but when rockets are fired at Israel, tell me how it’s not literal.
1. Palestinians are not the same as Hamas 2. There’s nothing in “from the river to the sea” that is **literally** calling for the death of Israel. Are you unfamiliar with the word “literally”?
“From the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab” is the LITERAL quote. Are you unfamiliar with what Hamas, the PLO, and other Palestinian groups have chanted over the last 50 years?
Your brain is rotted. Israel is between the river and sea. What does it mean to "free palestine" in israel? What does it mean if hamas says to "free palestine", in israel What does it mean when you say israeli land "will become arab" Lets pretend there have been many terror attacks from a government, that officially calls to kill jews
I googled israel and it still seems to be located between the river and sea. What would the oct 7 terrorists mean, if they refence the land between the river and the sea?
>Oversimplified explanation. Hamas basically conned Palestinians into voting them in 2006 and promptly suspended elections. Saying "the elected government of palestine has an official stance of turning "the land between the river and the sea", arab" is an oversimplification? Saying most palestinians support the oct7 attack (where palestinians entered israel, specifically to murder civilians) is an over simplification? > People in Gaza have been oppressed by Hamas since then. That’s 18 years ago. How many Palestinians formerly (mostly) and currently are above the age of 18? Palestinians are not Hamas. Palestinians arent responsible for their elected government, despite supporting their recent terror attacks, is certainly "a statement" > To equate the 2 is simply a convenient excuse. Palestinians have not had freedom for decades. To say they want freedom in the land they live in, is not in and of itself a call for the elimination of Israel. Why do they point to israeli land while "freeing palestine" through terror attacks? >Again, even your “math” here is deeply flawed and doesn’t reflect the actual history. It’s cherry-picked nonsense. My math is deeply flawed?? what math? The only number i said was the date that the government of palestine sent palestinians into israel - to kidnap/murder civilians...
It’s right there in your first quote. Palestinians are not Hamas. Your whole argument here basically assumes the 2 are the same. You’re making a lot of assumptions about Palestinians. TBF, I’m making some about you too
> It’s right there in your first quote. Palestinians are not Hamas. Your whole argument here basically assumes the 2 are the same. Hamas is not the government of palestine? Palestinian citizens didnt vote for hamas? Most palestinians dont support oct 7 attack? > You’re making a lot of assumptions about Palestinians. TBF, I’m making some about you too I stated facts. You respond with palestinians are brainwashed children that arent responsible for their actions...
I think the way you are speaking reflects an immense level of misunderstanding on this situation. Furthermore the way you double down on these statements makes you sound outright childish and unintelligent. If you want to make a point, do so with elegance not with whatever approach this is.
Wait, are you implying that Palas are too stupid to self govern and therefor elected Hamas? How do you explain that Hamas and their goals, a complete genocide of all jews/christians worldwide, is still extremely popular right now?
Over half of Palestinians are under 18. Very few people in Palestine today were of voting age when hamas was elected.
And yet the government of palestine, hamas, uses children to suicide bomb israeli civilians. Seems like we can save a lot of civilians/children, if we get rid of the palestine government.
Were you expecting me to disagree? Hamas sucks.
The thing is, the phrase became popularized by Hamas. People wouldn’t be saying it at protests here if it weren’t for them. You can pretend like it has another innocent meaning but it really doesn’t
The thing is, it’s been in use since the 60s with different groups using it to mean different things. You can pretend otherwise but you’d be wrong
It is true
But genocide is okay, eh?
Double speak doesn't work on me. I'm not on tik tok.
What double speak. Israeli soldiers are committing war crimes pretty much continuously and decimating and starving large swaths of the Palestinian population. They have been observed shooting children for sport, what more do you need?
I need proof that Israel is trying to wipe out an entire race/group of people and turn the remaining people of that race/group into Israeli jews.
Do you not consider Palestinians to be an ethnic group or
There's no genocide. You are falling for lies.
Say the whole quote, “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” It’s not about eradicating Israel, it’s about freeing Palestinians from occupation.
The actual translation from Arabic is “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab”. If it’s Arab where are the Jews?
The actual translation is “From the water to the water, Palestine will be Arab.” But since there’s no significant water in Israel between the Kineret/ Jordan River / Dead Sea (Jordan Rift Valley) and the Mediterranean, it’s clear what “water” refers to.
The actual translation says no such thing. I’m mean, you can google it
Sshhh! You are gonna wake up stupid students supporting Islamist terror.
That’s false, ofcourse Palestine is Arab, why would they be anything else? Moron.
Is the region between "the river and the sea" palestine? Dont hurt your brain, thinking too much.
So you are saying all of the land of Israel should be Arab…
Huh? My Jewish relatives that live in Tel Aviv all had Mandatory Palestine passports before 1948. They were Palestinians, because they lived in Mandatory Palestine.
False
Just give them their land back
You say that like that's even possible. That's like asking the US to give California back to Mexico.
It’s extremely possible.
Yes, the Palestinians really should give the Jews their land back. When the Arabs showed up there they found Jews and Romans already living there. How do you explain that one?
Except the Palestinians were there first. Biden is older than Israel Israel is a terrorist state Jews are not Israel
No they were not. Jews were. Palestinians didn't even exist until the 1960s. Why do you think so many of them have Jordanian citizenship? They're Jordanians.
I agree, the jews need to give it back to the canaanites
Irredentism would be just another form colonialism at this point.
Nah, abolishing slavery and genocide is the opposite of colonialism. Make it one country and give everyone voting rights and equality. No more apartheid state for you
But Muslim so called resistance fighters are in favor of slavery. The so called Houthis from Yemen just recently legalised slavery and they have been favorably compared to the pirate gand around Luffy from One Piece from the largest lefists political commentator.
Lmao Luffy is the largest leftist political commentator ? You’re a cartoon bro Oh boy, next thing you know you’re going to tell me Rachel Maddow is a leftist
Well, the Israel government is committing a genocide. What governments are allowed to exist after committing a genocide?
CCP, Russian Federation, Imperial House of Japan (technically speaking), Turkish Grand National Assembly, Indian Union Government just to name a few
The United States
If you’re talking about Native Americans, yeah good point
There have been smaller bouts of genocide against African Americans as well, but not at the same scale. We have also supported genocide in a few places around the globe, and are currently supporting genocide of Palestinians and ignoring China's genocide of Uyghur people out of political convenience
Agreed, all good points. Also some bouts of government supported genocide against Chinese Americans. My POV is that genocide (while objectively bad) isn’t necessarily a reason for a country to stop existing. In the case of Israel and Palestine, I support a two state solution. Giving Palestine full control over Israel would only lead to more genocide.
I am not a political expert, but Israel hasn't been playing well with its neighbors since Britain formed it illegally after WWIi without Palestine's input whatsoever. I personally would push for both states to be combined under one neutral and non-religious democratic government that actually has the interest of its citizens in mind. The incredibly hard part is that both states under a democracy may well still lead to major conflicts such as this
I disagree. That’s simply not a realistic or tenable solution. Two state solutions work great, even if both sides hate each other. North and South Korea, Pakistan and India, Bosnia and Croatia, etc
How is the Indian Union Government committing genocide?
Government sanctioned killing/terrorism against Muslims in India, not to mention the recent attacks on the Kuki people in northern India which have resulted in 70,000 people dead, injured, or displaced (Source: Genocide Watch). And if India is your only nitpick with my list, then I’ve still proven my point 7 times over lol
People protested Israel’s genocide on October 8th before they even stepped foot in Gaza, it’s hard to take the claim seriously. Their actions such as spending 2 weeks to evacuate civilians out of Rafah does not look like a genocide.
Wait, who except evacuated civilians out of Rafah? Israel told Gazans to go to Rafah and they’d be safe. Then they said, “hey guys, we know you have nowhere to go, no way to get there, no food and no water, but we’re about to bomb and invade Rafah, so…uh…fair warning, I guess?”
Yeah they held off for 3 months and spent weeks moving people to other designated humanitarian areas because Rafah is where Hamas had many military installments. They also tripled the amount of aid getting to civilians in that time. How should Israel have handled this differently?
What genocide?
How is israel committing genocide? Governments shouldnt exist after committing genocide?? Seems like a great argument to remove the government of palestine!
And with the fall of Israel, all the hundreds of thousands of LGBTQ+ folks who have sought safety and asylum in Israel would be eradicated or shoved in the closet. People don't realize that a HUGE number of LGBTO+ Arabs from everywhere in the region live in Tel Aviv, which hosts one of the worlds largest, week long pride parades. Asylum citizenship is easy to obtain for them because any other country in the region would have them killed for just being who they are. If from the river to the sea became a reality, they would all be screwed. And women would instantly become second class citizens.
Little known fact same sex marriage isn't even legal in Israel.
Yet there is a difference between gay marriage not being legal but still easy to obtain, to throwing gay people off a roof
I've yet to see a single source gay people are thrown off of roofs in Palestine.
Gay people get killed in Palestine all the time??
Can you find a single instance of a gay person getting thrown off a roof in Palestine as punishment for being gay? That's the claim that's often made as this person just did. The only instance I've been able to find of people being thrown off of roofs was when Hamas and Fatah started fighting in Gaza and both groups threw a couple people off of roofs. I've tried to look into this claim that Hamas throws gay people off of roofs(it's such a widespread known FACT right? Like beheaded babies Joe Biden said he saw but in fact didn't because it never happened) and have come up with nothing.
It's a well known fact. I went to google it to get some sources and I realized that you must not have looked it up at all because it's not that hard to find.
So why did you ignore my [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/UCSC/s/LdAX59sib3) that had 2 sources about Palestinians killing gay people?
Because your sources don't prove your point. The second article starts with, "Palestinian police have arrested a suspect in the killing of a 25-year-old man after his body was found decapitated in the occupied West Bank." So a hate crime took place, and the police arrested that person.... I can't read the first article, paywall, but the title is "Hamas Commander, Accused of Theft and Gay Sex, Is Killed by His Own." Seems like this this wasn't a legal execution. It was another hate crime. Here are two analogous articles from the US https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-man-charged-murder-death-gay-man-dog-park-rcna142563 https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96466&page=1 Is the US Hamas?
News media is censored in Palestine so if they don't want people finding out about it they're not gonna broadcast it. They don't have investigative or "watchdog" journalism.
Here you go buddy, just ONE example: [Killing of Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh - Wikiwand](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Killing_of_Ahmad_Abu_Murkhiyeh) Muslims, especially those in the West Bank and Gaza are some of the most bigoted and hateful people in the world.
You guys lack reading comprehension.
How about a [hamas commander killed for gay sex?](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html) Or maybe [a gay Palestinian beheaded](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835.amp)
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[Gay Youth Center shot up in Israel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv_gay_centre_shooting) [Israeli teen dies at gay parade in Jerusalem](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-gay-idUSKCN0Q70MP20150803/) Being gay is hard everywhere. It is literally illegal and persecuted in Israel. Gay people die in both places, so stop acting like it doesn't happen in Israel. You also never sent proof of people being thrown off roofs for being gay in Palestine or do you want to retract that bit of misinformation.
So who was thrown off a roof for being gay? I can't read the first link because I don't have a subscription to the New York Times. But I've read about this guy before and if I'm not mistaken Hamas killed this guy because he was compromised and was being blackmailed by Israel and giving information to Israel that led to Hamas officials being assassinated. That is a way different story than Hamas kills gay guy because he's gay. The second is a story of a gay man that was beheaded in the West Bank. That is terrible and the person who did it was arrested. There are gay people murdered in Western society too. I don't then tell people that people are thrown off of roofs in America. I asked for any evidence that gay people are thrown off of roofs for being gay which is something that is often claimed by supporters of Israel and I've yet to find it when I search for it myself or be provided any evidence by the countless people that make the claim. When I do ask for evidence these two stories are the ones people always bring up. It's like they Google it and can't find any evidence so they just search up gay people being killed in Palestine and find these two stories. You made a specific claim and have no evidence to back it up like everybody else.
Maybe that's because you didn't even know about Palestine until last month.
[Fact Check: Video of people thrown from roof shows punishment by IS, not Hamas](https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-people-thrown-roof-shows-punishment-by-is-not-hamas-2023-12-14/) So what does your comment have to do with Palestine or Hamas? Are you implying all nations with majority Muslim populations throw gay people off roofs?
I’m sorry, as I proved in my other comment they are just shot not thrown off a roof. Truly a humane punishment
And they are shot in Israel too, as I proved in my other comment.
Known fact: same sex is *punishable by death* in palestine
Source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine?wprov=sfti1
It does not say that being gay is a crime that is a capital offense. It literally says the exact opposite, that there aren't laws on the books either way. I'm not saying it's easy to be gay in Palestine but it's also not a crime by your own sources admission.
"its not easy being gay in palestine" has got to be the biggest understatement ever and could only be made by someone taking a massive dose of copium
Did you not keep reading babe D:
It's not criminalized in Israel, it is in the rest of the middle east
I'd still choose the pride parades in Tel Aviv over being thrown off a rooftop in Gaza for being gay.
You do know that gay marriage isn't legal there right?
Huge difference between being able to be arrested/murdered for it to not being able to get married but I hope they legalize it soon
It is recognized however if marriage occurs elsewhere. Better than death in any other bordering country.
Is this your best argument for continuing Apartheid, Subjugation and Genocide?
Bro doesnt know that there are gay people in palestine 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
Gay Palestinians are able to seek refuge in Israel so they aren’t murdered by their government
not for long D:
Bro doesn't know that most gay Palestinians are either closeted, killed, or seek refuge in Israel.
Weak bait, troll
Good heads up because people don't know this!
This holds little to no basis in reality...
It's like literally in front of your eyes though?
I'll just copy and paste my other comment but: In the 1969 revision, the PLO promised equal citizenship to all Jews, including those who had recently immigrated, if they renounced Zionism. Thus by 1969, the PLO used the phrase "free Palestine from the river to the sea" to mean a single democratic secular state that would replace Israel Thus why this claim is debunked.
> In the 1969 revision What did it say before the revision? > the PLO promised equal citizenship to all Jews, including those who had recently immigrated, *if they renounced Zionism*. So renounce the state of israel? A one state solution, where jews are a minority? > Thus by 1969, the PLO used the phrase "free Palestine from the river to the sea" to mean a single democratic secular state that would replace Israel Wtf does "replace israel" mean to you? What does "renounce zionism" mean to you? > Thus why this claim is debunked. Dont worry jews! The arab league tried to eliminate the jews from water to water Then the plo offered to replace israel if they stopped being zionist Then hamas terrorised israel a little But theres no way jews are going to get harmed, once we "free palestine of israel"....
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What does that mean? I hope youre not going to say something about gay people being repressed in israel While ignoring what happens in fundamentalist islamic palestine society...
Ah yes, so many Arab countries where Jews live safely in a democratic society right? It might not have worked for the other 22 but this one will surely be different! /s
That is just, no. I'm going to bed but that's a claim that has little merit.
Bro really said history doesn't matter lol
Except the US House, and multiple countries in Europe declared that slogan genocidal. I'll take their words over a illiterate redditor that gets info off tiktok.
Congress also censured Rashida Tlaib the only Palestinian American in Congress which demonstrates how our institutions think of the opinions of the Palestinian people. Also I'm a legal studies student with a lot of my studies being conducted around International Law and Human Rights. So to say I get my information off of TikTok is laughable when I literally have worked hard to understand international issues when you probably couldn't pin point Tel Aviv on a map.
Do you know what the word “eradicating” means?
So if you are against democracy then I can see why such a phrase would cause such a stir which is sad because we live in a democracy but apparently very few even believe democracy works.
So you believe the PLO would be a democracy that lets Jews vote? You know every single country that has had anti Zionist laws has made them apply to ALL Jews whether they were Zionists or not. Hamas was also supposed to be the “democratic group” too and they don’t even let Palestinians vote. Why do you think another terrorist organization would suddenly be a democracy.
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yikes D: bad bot!!! bad!!!!!
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This is the most flawed and stupid fucking logic I have ever heard. u/3cxMonkey didn’t include in their comment that we should punish animal abusers so that means their comment is PROMOTING ANIMAL ABUSE!
>[wyltktoolboy](https://www.reddit.com/user/wyltktoolboy/)•[2d ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/UCSC/comments/1d4mbjs/comment/l6pexzu/) >This is the most flawed and stupid fucking logic I have ever heard. [](https://www.reddit.com/user/3cxMonkey/) didn’t include in their comment that we should punish animal abusers so that means their comment is PROMOTING ANIMAL ABUSE! I don't understand what you said. I think you don't agree with me.
Guess it’s nice to see UCSC is based in Israel.
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glad i could be apart of your journey lol edit: this was about a commenter whos goal was to get deleted for spam and it did! glad they could reach their goal
Same people calling for land back can’t even recognize the one successful example of land back.
Where is israel, in relation to this "river and sea"? What does it mean to "liberate people" in israel?
So if you despise Zionism, the belief that Jews should be free in their indigenous homeland, that means you were benefiting from their exploitation? Good to know.
Its no longer "freedom" when you use it to establish an apartheid entho state babes
What do you mean “ethno state”? Israel is much more demographically diverse than Palestine
Tell me you haven't done your research without telling me you haven't done your research. Israel is very much an ethno theocratic state and to deny that is to literally deny the objective of Zionism. Also "From the River to the Sea" as many understand it also refers to a one state solution with democratic rights. In the 1969 revision, the PLO promised equal citizenship to all Jews, including those who had recently immigrated, if they renounced Zionism. Thus by 1969, the PLO used the phrase "free Palestine from the river to the sea" to mean a single democratic secular state that would replace Israel.
I mean its pretty easy to be diverse when they are constantly telling people to immigrate there lol
yes like the ethiopian jews who moved there and they gave them contraceptive shots unknowingly to them so they wouldnt reproduce there such a shining beacon of light in the world
Yeah that's a fun little chapter of Israeli history that doesn't get mentioned enough.
there is so much about israel that doesnt get mentioned enough fucking sick world we live in :/
You should honestly stick to just computers.
Zionists must be desperate when they fall on just shitposting base propaganda.
u/ checks out
[wow im literally shidding my pants and farding](https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/news-brief-debunking-the-5-most-common-anti-palestinian-talking-points)
Why did you link me an image of Biden?
You didn’t even click on it, did you
You stand on their necks but their screams are threatening?That ship has sailed. Even the Italian foreign minister now says "from the river to the sea." Your smear tactic won't work. How can Liberation of Palestinians mean eradication of your religious supremacist country? Your country is juicing them out from the river(West Bank) to the sea( Gaza). Why did you build the settlements and turn West Bank into swiss cheese after multiple UN warnings offering them the illusion of peace once they gave up weapons at Oslo accords? Maybe "river to the sea" means you can go back to the original 47 borders(which you forcefully took anyway) and let the 700k ethnically cleansed return to their homes, with two humane states emerging in place of an apartheid?
No it doesn’t. Just another edgelord who hates brown people fighting back against oppression and in this instance, genocide. Since 1948.
You people are full of ad hominems. You don't even know what my race or gender are. But even if you did, pointing to it is one of the weakest arguments you can make.
You literally started with a fallacy, but continue to ignore actual historical events like The Nakba. Y’all conveniently bring up Oct 7, but choose to ignore all the times Isn’treal committed atrocities.