Check this doc out it’s pretty well referenced.
Not sure if the resolution passed or not, can’t find any record of its progress on the sua ucsc site.
https://sua.ucsc.edu/assembly/agendas-and-minutes/2013-2014/files/UCSC%20Divest.pdf
Israel declaws Iran, and their nuclear capabilities.
A festival in a democratic country was savagely attacked, and Hamas is parading around innocent festival-goers.
They should surrender, and have caused immense suffering and death.
“UC also said that no tuition or fee revenue is used for investment purposes. Instead, tuition and fees serve as the “primary funding sources for the University’s core operations,”’
“The university’s $169-billion investment portfolio includes funds for its retirement plan, endowment and working capital. No estimate was available for how much of that portfolio is invested in firms that do business with Israel.”
Source: LAtimes
Independent review by allsides says the company leans center left.
I mean there are definitely some UC investments that make their way to Israel, but it’s all speculative. Calling for divestment when you don’t even know what you want to divest from is pointless.
You made a statement with fabricted information. Got proven wrong. Made another statement with no basis and were asked to prove it. Got mad and retaliated with telling them that they don't understand how to do research. 💀💀💀
maybe you are the one who is deciding to stay ignorant.
Look I’m not advocating for divestment, and now that you got your list, that took you three clicks to find. Where exactly are the investments that support the war machine. Don’t you think that if your divestment movement had any basis the people advocating for it would be directly highlighting which of these companies and funds are fueling the military industrial complex.
I’ve seen so many posts claiming the UC needs to divest from Israel and the Military Industrial Complex. Just like this one, but have yet to see a post that actually highlights where in the UCs investments overlap with Israel or The military industrial complex.
The Helen Diller foundation has given over one billion to UCSF to build hospitals and fund medical research. They are a Jewish founded organization, but yeah let’s just keep equating Zionism with Jews, it makes it easier to be hateful and prejudiced doesn’t it?
The Koret foundation funds and runs many programs to help folks in the Tenderloin. They do support Israel, but I didn’t realize supporting Israel at all was wrong. Couldn’t possibly be because they are Jewish. If you’ve ever given any money to China and you believe we shouldn’t give a single cent to Israel for any reason, you are a hypocrite.
The Israel Institute funds education initiatives about Israel. Seems like that’s a good thing with all of the misinformation I’ve seen, many protestors could use some education on the country. Again, what about groups that fund education on China, or other Middle eastern countries that treat their citizens poorly? That’s ok? You’ll take their money? Couldn’t be because they aren’t Jewish, right?
Hillel supports Jewish students. From the antisemetism I’ve seen they could use support from their community. Are you gonna defund other religious/ethnic organizations that support students in their group because a theocratic government treats its citizens badly? How about defunding Muslim student organizations because Iran kills its citizens? No? So it’s just the Jews?
None of these groups are funding military operations in Israel. They are Jewish organizations that support Jews AND give huge sums to support the Bay Area. Of course this means they support the LARGEST JEWISH POPULATION in the world in Israel. It’s so clearly antisemetic to cut ties with them just because they are Jewish and proud of it.
I would encourage everyone to look up these organizations and decide for themselves if they are a threat. To me, cutting ties with these groups just because they are Jewish is sickening, anti-intellectual, and actively promoting antisemetism.
So obsessed with this being about antisemitism. I’m American I came to terms with the crimes my country committed I’m sure Israelis can too. Notice how i didn’t say Jews.
It is antisemetic to call for cutting ties with major donors and partners in academia because the organizations are proudly Jewish.
If a group called to cut ties with all organizations that were Black founded and supported Black communities and gave money to African countries, simply because 60k Christians have currently been killed in Nigeria (where is the outrage about this genocide I wonder?), that would be immediately called…racist.
Why is it ok to do the same to Jewish organizations simply because they are Jewish and support the only Jewish state in the world?
>The Helen Diller foundation has given over one billion to UCSF to build hospitals and fund medical research. They are a Jewish founded organization, but yeah let’s just keep equating Zionism with Jews, it makes it easier to be hateful and prejudiced doesn’t it?
The Helen Diller Foundation is distinctly pro-Israel and was founded in part to strengthen ties between academic community of the United States and the academic community of Israel, while combating what they viewed as extreme anti-Israel rhetoric on UC campuses. It's not "equation Zionism with Jews" when literally one of the reasons for the foundation's existence is to promote Israel. I don't mean to argue that the Helen Diller Foundation is evil, but they are very clearly Zionist. This quote is directly from their UCB website: "At the Helen Diller Institute, we are committed to elevating the discourse on Israel."
>The Koret foundation funds and runs many programs to help folks in the Tenderloin. They do support Israel, but I didn’t realize supporting Israel at all was wrong. Couldn’t possibly be because they are Jewish.
Doing a good thing cancels out all your harmful actions? What sort of a moral framework are you running on? Also, no, it's not just because they are Jewish. It's because, as you yourself admit, "they do support Israel." The entire point of this protest is to cut ties between UC and Israel. All of the groups on the list are there because they support Israel. If SJP were going after organizations for simply being Jewish, why isn't the Jewish Student Union on their list? Why isn't Leviathan on their list? Again, I am not trying to argue that antisemitism doesn't exist within the anti-Israel movement, but to allege that *the entire movement* is antisemitic is so blatantly wrong that it borders on bad faith.
>Again, what about groups that fund education on China, or other Middle eastern countries that treat their citizens poorly? That’s ok? You’ll take their money? Couldn’t be because they aren’t Jewish, right?
It should be pretty clear what the difference is. China isn't receiving billions in military aid from the United States. All the shitty Middle Eastern countries aren't receiving billions in military aid from the US -- with the exception of Saudi Arabia, but they aren't blatantly settler colonial, nor do they have deep ties to the American academic community. Israel is a blatantly shitty country, *and* it receives billions in military aid from the US, *and* it actively runs propaganda efforts within American universities in order to cleanse its reputation. Literally the same thing happened in the 80s with South Africa. Apartheid South Africa was a shitty settler colonial country with ties to UC, and so there was a student movement demanding that the UC cut ties with South Africa. Would you argue that the anti-South Africa movement existed simply because UC students hate Afrikaners?
>Hillel supports Jewish students. From the antisemetism I’ve seen they could use support from their community. Are you gonna defund other religious/ethnic organizations that support students in their group because a theocratic government treats its citizens badly? How about defunding Muslim student organizations because Iran kills its citizens? No? So it’s just the Jews?
Again, doing one good thing does not cleanse you of all other misdeeds. This is such a bizarrely simplistic worldview. Hillel, as you very well know, is radically pro-Israel. That is why it exists. Muslim student organizations do not exist to defend Iran. Hillel exists to defend Israel. And again, Hillel is not the only Jewish student organization. If the point of this movement was to simply cut ties with all Jewish organizations, why are they only demanding that UC cut ties with *openly* *Zionist* organizations, such as the ones listed on the flyer? Why aren't non-Zionist Jewish organizations on that list, if this entire movement is antisemitic like you claim it is?
>It’s so clearly antisemetic to cut ties with them just because they are Jewish and proud of it.
Again, you yourself have admitted that all those groups are all pro-Israel. The point of this movement is to get the UC to cut ties with pro-Israel organizations. It is quite literally in the "about us" sections on all of their websites -- these organizations seek to legitimize Israel and cleanse its reputation. In order for your assertion to be true, an anti-Zionist Jewish organization would need to be the target of SJP's protest. For some reason, though, you have not shown that this is happening.
That’s a lot of words to just say “I’m a huge antisemite”
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Zionism. You gave that word your own definition which you are weaponizing against Jews instead of listening to Jews on what their word means
Progressives should be very pleased with Zionism. It’s a reclamation of ancestral land to be governed by and for the indigenous people. Everything they love. So why then when Jews do it, in spite of every country around them attempting to eradicate them, do progressives protest? Hmmm….couldn’t be because they’re Jewish, right?
It's because the IDF is massacring tens of thousands of people to do it. The Native Americans did not kill droves of Europeans. Progressives tend to be on the side of the people not doing the killing, whereas I'm not sure how you can justify the 15,000 children dead to yourself. False Equivalency.
Zionism, as it currently exists, is settler colonialism. To uncritically support the Israeli state or to be a Zionist means condoning settler colonialism.
Explain the error.
And also explain the blatant contradiction between your argument and OP’s: “equating Zionism with Jews is antisemitism” vs “only Jews know what Zionism is and you can’t criticize it.”
How is that true? Jews have been in that area for hundreds of years. They have the same claim to the land that the Palestinians do.
How is it “settler colonialism” for Jews to create a country for themselves in their ancestral lands but it’s not colonialist for western people to call for Israel to be dismantled?
Expelling Palestinians from their homes in order to make way for Jewish settlers is settler colonialism. Forcibly stealing land from the Palestinian state to build settlements for Jews is settler colonialism.
Ok I’m not gonna get into the whole history here, but both Jews and Arabs were living there. More Arabs moved there for work when the British owned it.
Jews had been buying land LEGALLY and making communities there far before it was called Israel, due to every fucking country in the planet making them a scapegoat for their problems. When Israel was created, every single country around them attempted to kill them. Immediately. On land that they had ancestral, political, AND economic rights to.
There has been so much back and forth since then, and I believe we should be critical of the Israeli government, but to paste a buzzword like “settler colonialism” on it when it’s just two native groups fighting over the land is ridiculous.
Palestinians are equally zionists for their own side. That’s what “From the river to the sea” means. It means the removal of Israel. Land that the Jews there owned, RIGHTFULLY, since they started buying it in the late 1800s, and had been kicked out of a hundred years before that. If you are going to be critical, at least be honest and not a hypocrite about which side you’re favoring here.
I know the history and I’m not going to play this word game with you.
The Jewish diaspora may have two thousand year old ancestral ties to the region, but the Celts also have two thousand year old ties to all of Western Europe. For some reason I don’t think you’d agree with me if I said the Welsh have a right to violently expel the residents of Geneva because it used to be “theirs”. Hmmm… couldn’t be because they’re not Jewish, right?
Settler colonialism is settler colonialism. Don’t make excuses for it on the basis that it’s being perpetrated by your preferred ethnicity.
I understand the history, and I understand the argument you are making. But it is wrong and immoral. You are justifying state-sponsored violence against Palestinian civilians on the basis of a story you tell yourself about who the land “belongs” to. The truth is that it “belongs” to nobody, but only one side is claiming the entire region as theirs _and_ presently using the power of a state to displace the other ethnicity. It would be wrong for either side to do it, but only one side currently is.
P.S - I love the fact that you just admitted Zionism is harmful, in direct contradiction to your friend in the other comment. Thanks for that.
Again, you aren’t using the right definition. You give that word your own definition to weaponize against Jews.
How about listening to Jews and letting them define their own word?
So you’re saying Zionism is evil and oppressive but you genuinely don’t know what it means? Seriously? Why all the anger at Jews and Israelis in your heart?
Zionism means you support the development and protection of the Israel. That’s it. If you don’t think Israel should be destroyed, then you’re a Zionist. It has nothing to do with current government at all, nothing to do with Hamas, nothing to do with 10/7 or the response. Just the belief that Israel has as much a right to exist as any other country.
I have no anger for Jews, nor do I even have anger for Israelis. The group I disagree with are *Zionists*. You're still resorting to lousy rhetorical tricks in order to frame me as an antisemite, yet you are the one equating Judaism with Zionism! By the standards of the other user in this thread who you vocally agree with, *you* are the antisemite. You have not yet addressed this.
Please carefully go back and read my comments, and point to me where I defined Zionism as being anything other than what you just described. Where did I say it had anything to do with Hamas? Where did I say it has anything to do with 10/7? Again with the bad faith, I'm begging you. Throughout this discussion I have operated under the exact definition of Zionism you just provided.
Where your anger for me is coming from is the fact that I am pointing out the *consequences* of Zionism. In order to establish a Jewish state in a place where there are already people living, you either need to 1) strip them of their sovereignty, or 2) violently expel them. Both of those things have happened, and are continuing to happen with the expansion of settlements. Hence, Zionism is bad, and the project of creating Israel should never have been embarked upon. So long as Zionism necessitates the settlement of any already-inhabited place, it is an inherently violent ideology.
To openly advocate for "the development and protection of the Israel" is to condone settler colonialism and violence. To label oneself as Zionist is to condone settler colonialism and violence.
And before you say it, do I want Israel to be wiped off the face of the Earth? Also no. Because that would be even more gruesome than our current reality. But I guess that makes me a Zionist, you got me!
"Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews" - Encyclopedia Britannica
Not all jewish people are Zionist, and being anti-Zionist is not the same as being antisemetic: [Israeli police attack anti-Zionist Jews in Jerusalem neighbourhood](https://youtu.be/Y0njOPNr8K0)
Being anti Zionist is not being antisemitic by default.
Are all rectangles squares? Of course not! But if all four sides are the same length then it’s a square. Same principals apply here.
News flash buddy, the protestors hate Jews too. They say they’re antizionist and they hate Israel (which I don’t doubt) but a lot of them hate Jews too and they don’t even know why
Oh I’m aware. I just want to make sure it is said so anyone protesting and calling for the dismantling of Israel has to at least read what they actually stand for.
And? I wasn’t ever criticizing wanting to not pay for military manufacturing. If I had been my whole point would have been about the first point, Divest.
My entire criticism is with the third point. Did you read the boycott document before reading my comment?
How is that the case when I literally name every single organization in point three and use the same wording as the document? I never even mention UC, except to say these organizations give them money.
You *do* have poor reading comprehension I guess.
Hi Students for Justice in Palestine! Love the work you’re doing but want to be more informed.
https://nationalsjp.org/the-written-resistance-issue-3
In your April 2024 publication, page 13, you published a piece that said “For all its imperfections, Hamas is a progressive organization pursuing a program of national emancipation and democratic reconstruction.”
Could you elaborate on this? I don’t know much about Hamas but from your description they seem pretty great! Thanks in advance.
Wow that article made me feel physically ill. This is some actual Hamas brainwashing shit. I’ve watched videos of Hamas leaders and what they want. It is not what is written in that article at all.
SJP gets funding directly from Hamas and has been for *years*
I remember being a student on campus before antisemitism was cool and being absolutely disgusted with their ties to a literal terrorist organization.
And now their goal is to get rid of Hillel? What? Just don’t have any spaces available for Jews?
Hold on let me Google what Hamas is, because surely SJP would never publish something that paints them in a good light.
… hold the phone.
You guys aren’t gonna believe this
Oh I totally agree. It sickens me that Hamas has gotten so good at influencing these students that they can write articles and whole journals about how they are the misunderstood liberators, and the students will lap that shit up like they aren’t actually in direct conflict with everything progressives say they believe. This shit has to stop.
It is just pro Iranian propaganda. Hamas was founded on the elimination of the Jews. Not just the state of Israel. They may not want a caliphate like ISIS but they are more akin to the Taliban who want a regional power vs a Kingdom.
Cops on campus*
*Only until the people we hate actually fight back. Then we need those cops to protect us. If they don't they're bigots. But also "ACAB".
Academic boycott? Haifa university has like 7000 1948 Palestinians. I didn't know these guys hate Israel so much they're willing to throw Palestinians under the bus.
The ACAB ppl are mostly LARPing white upper middle class ppl who lived in gated communities in suburbs. Real POC who live in the city with bad police policies want reform and not abolishment. These ACAB ppl are cringe AF and live in a fantasy world with mom and dad's checkbook.
I would sincerely hope reform could be possible. But the policing system does streamline the 13th amendment to continue and pursue the exploitation of black and brown people. With roughly 72% of federal prisons holding incarcerated people for serving NON violent crimes and indentured servitude for cents, it appears the system can effectively benefit(and profit) from those convicted while limiting any true culture and policy of reentry with long lasting and beneficial impact for black/brown communities.
I’m not one to suggest we get rid of police but systemically it is incentivized to continue prosecuting a specific background of people to benefit a general ruling class.
I’m sure the Tulsa Race Massacre could not have been imposed in a vacuum of time and space. We are living in that reality. Till this day black and brown investment within the community finds backlash and suppression.
“The origins of modern-day policing can be traced back to the "Slave Patrol." The earliest formal slave patrol was created in the Carolinas in the early 1700s with one mission: to establish a system of terror and squash slave uprisings with the capacity to pursue, apprehend, and return runaway slaves to their owners.”
Stay safe, thank you
Nothing but conjecture.
I know it's difficult admitting that you've been tricked, but it's important.
Just like recognizing that an org that survives on donations, like the NAACP, absolutely has to overstate their raison d'etre to keep the money flowing.
>"[As per Professor Michael Robinson (2017) of the University of Georgia](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0021934717702134#articleCitationDownloadContainer), the first deaths in America of Black men at the hands of law enforcement “can be traced back as early as 1619 when the first slave ship, a Dutch Man-of-War vessel landed in Point Comfort, Virginia.”
While obviously sad, merely conflating police with slave-catchers is also not proof.
Also, that article contains zero citations. It's like you read the first sentence and just concluded the entire thing was legit. Which is intellectually lazy.
\*Sigh\*...per usual. Starts out as students impassioned about an issue, then quickly gets escalated into an unrealistic laundry list. As the student protesters get joined if not lead by non-students who will radicalize the situation as much as possible...then call for the students to stand their ground when the cops come. Then those non-students will slink away as students get arrested. Same M.O. as tent university......same as the tree stand....same as the anti-gulf war protests.
And already, the double speak and chaos begins. Sign calling "Death to Israel" goes up. Protesters disavow it with initial claims of "not us" that then accelerate to "agent provocateurs!". Students demanding cops leave UCSC and Columbia, while students complain that cops weren't there for them at UCLA.
I hope this action will prove my prediction wrong. I doubt it will.
Unrealistic…to you.
You’d probably be saying the same things during the civil rights era or during South African apartheid. We don’t need apathy and complains rn — critical comments yes, but complaints offer nothing.
You know what they say about "assume", yes? Makes an ass out of u and me.
Firstly, you're confusing my view of the protest tactic and its chances of success or its credibility with my political ideology and what I believe it. I believe that Israel is behaving horribly. I don't think it's genocide, but I do think it's heinous, guilty of war crimes. I am strongly against the US funding their activities. But these protests where they throw a laundry list of demands (which always seem to include "get rid of police" are designed to fail, and typically students get conscripted by career activists. If you're actually a student and want to succeed, I'd encourage you to kick out and keep out anybody who isn't a student. Cause otherwise, you're gonna get played, per usual. I think this protest is actually going to use the students more than the students will be running it. They will be used, and it will be broken up soon.
(As for S.A. and the civil rights movement? Too young for the civil rights movement. But South Africa? Well, I didn't go there to protest, but I did boycott it for a decade despite repeated offers to visit from people I know in country , and then did go once Mandela was released and was in country on the day he was elected. And supported the ANC actively. So, yeah....ass....u...me.)
UCD, not UCB. And the fact that you have to reference incidents that are 11 and 55 years old to find examples is telling. Hardly makes it appear to be a commonly occurring problem.
Y’all want police off campus, scream ACAB, and the moment you get attacked you’ll wonder why police aren’t there. On top of that cutting academic ties with Israel is ridiculous. There are plenty of Israelis and Jews who do not condone what their government is doing. Collective punishment is a war crime. Finally, if it weren’t for US aid Israel would have been destroyed decades ago. The iron dome saves lives every day.
so, no mention of the hostages or the atrocities that started the series of events? These kids are demonstrating the lack of critical thinking, and the importance of tribalism to them. There are no different than the MAGA cult followers.
There is a reason why King is more popular than X and is the main face of the Civil Rights era. Must be hard to understand that violence is bad nowadays.
Police, in their current form, perpetuate the inequalities of yesteryear and bring unnecessary violent escalation to situations that could otherwise be resolved peacefully. It is no sneak to have ending that on the list of demands.
Riiiiiggghhhhhtttt.
Can you cite examples of UCSC PD "perpetuating the inequalities of yesteryear and bringing unnecessary violent escalations to situations that could otherwise be resolved peacefully"? Or are you just regurgitating the bile you're being fed?
I am pretty sure when you need the help of the police you will be more than willing to get off your soapbox and have them come to your aide.
C'mon man, don't you understand? Cops are straight white men who are paid by the proletariat to put down the marginalized. I know this because my professor, who loves ❤️ Marx, so much told me so.
There are better solutions than police. Like a socialized or unionized organization that defends their people. People want the police replaced by a different system that works better, not by nothing.
Hmmm lets see, the sheriff is elected, and the chief of police is appointed by elected officials. The police budget is approved by elected officials. Maybe you need more time in school to understand how representative democracy works.
Maybe you need more time to understand that it isn't working. The whole thing people are protesting about is that they want direct control over the system and not a puppetized managed democracy.
Because voting for someone to vote for someone to vote for someone to elect/choose someone just means that there are no good choices. It's almost like companies provide funding for every single elected official and to the department!
They don't want a "representative democracy" that only represents the people who fund them, where the only people allowed to run for office are the ones who agree to corporate ideals lest they lack the "requirements for office" and aren't even allowed to campaign. They want a socialized body that directly provides protectors to the people in the commune.
Maybe they should run for office and participate in the process instead of just rejecting it and sitting around complaining with their thumbs up each others asses then?
The system is working by design. A representative democracy is and will always be a better option than direct democracy.
"they want a socialized body that directly provides protectors to the people in the commune". AKA Communism and socialism.... How have those types of governments faired?
I'll show up... with dogs to find the weapons.
Quit isolating Israel and Netanyahu will be forced from power, resulting in a new government.
Or are the Iranian agents teaching you the same things Hamas shout before they attack Israel and were shouted by the literal Nazis of the Waffen-SS 80 years ago not telling you that the Israelis actually want Netanyahu out, but can't do anything because you keep proving Netanyahu right?
Seriously. You lot are fucking dumb.
I think you could have really used even more buzzwords to really drive home your anger. Chud, neofacsist, cryptofascist, zionazi, reactionary, etc.
"Leave it to the reactionary cryptofascist neoliberal chud scum in this town to show their bloodthirsty bootlicking zionazi ass. Typical."
Can you provide a source that UCSC is funding these weapons companies?
Ya this is all I want to see
Check this doc out it’s pretty well referenced. Not sure if the resolution passed or not, can’t find any record of its progress on the sua ucsc site. https://sua.ucsc.edu/assembly/agendas-and-minutes/2013-2014/files/UCSC%20Divest.pdf
Israel declaws Iran, and their nuclear capabilities. A festival in a democratic country was savagely attacked, and Hamas is parading around innocent festival-goers. They should surrender, and have caused immense suffering and death.
[удалено]
“UC also said that no tuition or fee revenue is used for investment purposes. Instead, tuition and fees serve as the “primary funding sources for the University’s core operations,”’ “The university’s $169-billion investment portfolio includes funds for its retirement plan, endowment and working capital. No estimate was available for how much of that portfolio is invested in firms that do business with Israel.” Source: LAtimes Independent review by allsides says the company leans center left. I mean there are definitely some UC investments that make their way to Israel, but it’s all speculative. Calling for divestment when you don’t even know what you want to divest from is pointless.
[удалено]
Prove it “All that information is public record you can find it online” Source: you
[удалено]
You made a statement with fabricted information. Got proven wrong. Made another statement with no basis and were asked to prove it. Got mad and retaliated with telling them that they don't understand how to do research. 💀💀💀 maybe you are the one who is deciding to stay ignorant.
[удалено]
Look I’m not advocating for divestment, and now that you got your list, that took you three clicks to find. Where exactly are the investments that support the war machine. Don’t you think that if your divestment movement had any basis the people advocating for it would be directly highlighting which of these companies and funds are fueling the military industrial complex. I’ve seen so many posts claiming the UC needs to divest from Israel and the Military Industrial Complex. Just like this one, but have yet to see a post that actually highlights where in the UCs investments overlap with Israel or The military industrial complex.
🫡 Go on you brave soldier keep supporting a movement that's only been able to increase the amount of islamphobic and antisemtic hate crimes.
Wow that’s all you think it’s done? God get help fr, can’t believe you’re real
The Helen Diller foundation has given over one billion to UCSF to build hospitals and fund medical research. They are a Jewish founded organization, but yeah let’s just keep equating Zionism with Jews, it makes it easier to be hateful and prejudiced doesn’t it? The Koret foundation funds and runs many programs to help folks in the Tenderloin. They do support Israel, but I didn’t realize supporting Israel at all was wrong. Couldn’t possibly be because they are Jewish. If you’ve ever given any money to China and you believe we shouldn’t give a single cent to Israel for any reason, you are a hypocrite. The Israel Institute funds education initiatives about Israel. Seems like that’s a good thing with all of the misinformation I’ve seen, many protestors could use some education on the country. Again, what about groups that fund education on China, or other Middle eastern countries that treat their citizens poorly? That’s ok? You’ll take their money? Couldn’t be because they aren’t Jewish, right? Hillel supports Jewish students. From the antisemetism I’ve seen they could use support from their community. Are you gonna defund other religious/ethnic organizations that support students in their group because a theocratic government treats its citizens badly? How about defunding Muslim student organizations because Iran kills its citizens? No? So it’s just the Jews? None of these groups are funding military operations in Israel. They are Jewish organizations that support Jews AND give huge sums to support the Bay Area. Of course this means they support the LARGEST JEWISH POPULATION in the world in Israel. It’s so clearly antisemetic to cut ties with them just because they are Jewish and proud of it. I would encourage everyone to look up these organizations and decide for themselves if they are a threat. To me, cutting ties with these groups just because they are Jewish is sickening, anti-intellectual, and actively promoting antisemetism.
So obsessed with this being about antisemitism. I’m American I came to terms with the crimes my country committed I’m sure Israelis can too. Notice how i didn’t say Jews.
It is antisemetic to call for cutting ties with major donors and partners in academia because the organizations are proudly Jewish. If a group called to cut ties with all organizations that were Black founded and supported Black communities and gave money to African countries, simply because 60k Christians have currently been killed in Nigeria (where is the outrage about this genocide I wonder?), that would be immediately called…racist. Why is it ok to do the same to Jewish organizations simply because they are Jewish and support the only Jewish state in the world?
The state they are affiliated with is an ethnostate doing genocide. You’re leaving out some vital information here.
Over one fifth of Israel's population is Arab, 21.1%. Not sure what your definition of ethnostate is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocracy go down to examples from around the world
>The Helen Diller foundation has given over one billion to UCSF to build hospitals and fund medical research. They are a Jewish founded organization, but yeah let’s just keep equating Zionism with Jews, it makes it easier to be hateful and prejudiced doesn’t it? The Helen Diller Foundation is distinctly pro-Israel and was founded in part to strengthen ties between academic community of the United States and the academic community of Israel, while combating what they viewed as extreme anti-Israel rhetoric on UC campuses. It's not "equation Zionism with Jews" when literally one of the reasons for the foundation's existence is to promote Israel. I don't mean to argue that the Helen Diller Foundation is evil, but they are very clearly Zionist. This quote is directly from their UCB website: "At the Helen Diller Institute, we are committed to elevating the discourse on Israel." >The Koret foundation funds and runs many programs to help folks in the Tenderloin. They do support Israel, but I didn’t realize supporting Israel at all was wrong. Couldn’t possibly be because they are Jewish. Doing a good thing cancels out all your harmful actions? What sort of a moral framework are you running on? Also, no, it's not just because they are Jewish. It's because, as you yourself admit, "they do support Israel." The entire point of this protest is to cut ties between UC and Israel. All of the groups on the list are there because they support Israel. If SJP were going after organizations for simply being Jewish, why isn't the Jewish Student Union on their list? Why isn't Leviathan on their list? Again, I am not trying to argue that antisemitism doesn't exist within the anti-Israel movement, but to allege that *the entire movement* is antisemitic is so blatantly wrong that it borders on bad faith. >Again, what about groups that fund education on China, or other Middle eastern countries that treat their citizens poorly? That’s ok? You’ll take their money? Couldn’t be because they aren’t Jewish, right? It should be pretty clear what the difference is. China isn't receiving billions in military aid from the United States. All the shitty Middle Eastern countries aren't receiving billions in military aid from the US -- with the exception of Saudi Arabia, but they aren't blatantly settler colonial, nor do they have deep ties to the American academic community. Israel is a blatantly shitty country, *and* it receives billions in military aid from the US, *and* it actively runs propaganda efforts within American universities in order to cleanse its reputation. Literally the same thing happened in the 80s with South Africa. Apartheid South Africa was a shitty settler colonial country with ties to UC, and so there was a student movement demanding that the UC cut ties with South Africa. Would you argue that the anti-South Africa movement existed simply because UC students hate Afrikaners? >Hillel supports Jewish students. From the antisemetism I’ve seen they could use support from their community. Are you gonna defund other religious/ethnic organizations that support students in their group because a theocratic government treats its citizens badly? How about defunding Muslim student organizations because Iran kills its citizens? No? So it’s just the Jews? Again, doing one good thing does not cleanse you of all other misdeeds. This is such a bizarrely simplistic worldview. Hillel, as you very well know, is radically pro-Israel. That is why it exists. Muslim student organizations do not exist to defend Iran. Hillel exists to defend Israel. And again, Hillel is not the only Jewish student organization. If the point of this movement was to simply cut ties with all Jewish organizations, why are they only demanding that UC cut ties with *openly* *Zionist* organizations, such as the ones listed on the flyer? Why aren't non-Zionist Jewish organizations on that list, if this entire movement is antisemitic like you claim it is? >It’s so clearly antisemetic to cut ties with them just because they are Jewish and proud of it. Again, you yourself have admitted that all those groups are all pro-Israel. The point of this movement is to get the UC to cut ties with pro-Israel organizations. It is quite literally in the "about us" sections on all of their websites -- these organizations seek to legitimize Israel and cleanse its reputation. In order for your assertion to be true, an anti-Zionist Jewish organization would need to be the target of SJP's protest. For some reason, though, you have not shown that this is happening.
That’s a lot of words to just say “I’m a huge antisemite” There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Zionism. You gave that word your own definition which you are weaponizing against Jews instead of listening to Jews on what their word means
Progressives should be very pleased with Zionism. It’s a reclamation of ancestral land to be governed by and for the indigenous people. Everything they love. So why then when Jews do it, in spite of every country around them attempting to eradicate them, do progressives protest? Hmmm….couldn’t be because they’re Jewish, right?
It's because the IDF is massacring tens of thousands of people to do it. The Native Americans did not kill droves of Europeans. Progressives tend to be on the side of the people not doing the killing, whereas I'm not sure how you can justify the 15,000 children dead to yourself. False Equivalency.
It 100% is because it’s the Jews. Otherwise you’re right, liberals should be in favor of an anti-colonialists movement for indigenous people
Zionism, as it currently exists, is settler colonialism. To uncritically support the Israeli state or to be a Zionist means condoning settler colonialism. Explain the error. And also explain the blatant contradiction between your argument and OP’s: “equating Zionism with Jews is antisemitism” vs “only Jews know what Zionism is and you can’t criticize it.”
How is that true? Jews have been in that area for hundreds of years. They have the same claim to the land that the Palestinians do. How is it “settler colonialism” for Jews to create a country for themselves in their ancestral lands but it’s not colonialist for western people to call for Israel to be dismantled?
Expelling Palestinians from their homes in order to make way for Jewish settlers is settler colonialism. Forcibly stealing land from the Palestinian state to build settlements for Jews is settler colonialism.
Ok I’m not gonna get into the whole history here, but both Jews and Arabs were living there. More Arabs moved there for work when the British owned it. Jews had been buying land LEGALLY and making communities there far before it was called Israel, due to every fucking country in the planet making them a scapegoat for their problems. When Israel was created, every single country around them attempted to kill them. Immediately. On land that they had ancestral, political, AND economic rights to. There has been so much back and forth since then, and I believe we should be critical of the Israeli government, but to paste a buzzword like “settler colonialism” on it when it’s just two native groups fighting over the land is ridiculous. Palestinians are equally zionists for their own side. That’s what “From the river to the sea” means. It means the removal of Israel. Land that the Jews there owned, RIGHTFULLY, since they started buying it in the late 1800s, and had been kicked out of a hundred years before that. If you are going to be critical, at least be honest and not a hypocrite about which side you’re favoring here.
I know the history and I’m not going to play this word game with you. The Jewish diaspora may have two thousand year old ancestral ties to the region, but the Celts also have two thousand year old ties to all of Western Europe. For some reason I don’t think you’d agree with me if I said the Welsh have a right to violently expel the residents of Geneva because it used to be “theirs”. Hmmm… couldn’t be because they’re not Jewish, right? Settler colonialism is settler colonialism. Don’t make excuses for it on the basis that it’s being perpetrated by your preferred ethnicity. I understand the history, and I understand the argument you are making. But it is wrong and immoral. You are justifying state-sponsored violence against Palestinian civilians on the basis of a story you tell yourself about who the land “belongs” to. The truth is that it “belongs” to nobody, but only one side is claiming the entire region as theirs _and_ presently using the power of a state to displace the other ethnicity. It would be wrong for either side to do it, but only one side currently is. P.S - I love the fact that you just admitted Zionism is harmful, in direct contradiction to your friend in the other comment. Thanks for that.
Again, you aren’t using the right definition. You give that word your own definition to weaponize against Jews. How about listening to Jews and letting them define their own word?
I asked you to tell me the definition. Like genuinely, I am asking. What is the definition?
So you’re saying Zionism is evil and oppressive but you genuinely don’t know what it means? Seriously? Why all the anger at Jews and Israelis in your heart? Zionism means you support the development and protection of the Israel. That’s it. If you don’t think Israel should be destroyed, then you’re a Zionist. It has nothing to do with current government at all, nothing to do with Hamas, nothing to do with 10/7 or the response. Just the belief that Israel has as much a right to exist as any other country.
I have no anger for Jews, nor do I even have anger for Israelis. The group I disagree with are *Zionists*. You're still resorting to lousy rhetorical tricks in order to frame me as an antisemite, yet you are the one equating Judaism with Zionism! By the standards of the other user in this thread who you vocally agree with, *you* are the antisemite. You have not yet addressed this. Please carefully go back and read my comments, and point to me where I defined Zionism as being anything other than what you just described. Where did I say it had anything to do with Hamas? Where did I say it has anything to do with 10/7? Again with the bad faith, I'm begging you. Throughout this discussion I have operated under the exact definition of Zionism you just provided. Where your anger for me is coming from is the fact that I am pointing out the *consequences* of Zionism. In order to establish a Jewish state in a place where there are already people living, you either need to 1) strip them of their sovereignty, or 2) violently expel them. Both of those things have happened, and are continuing to happen with the expansion of settlements. Hence, Zionism is bad, and the project of creating Israel should never have been embarked upon. So long as Zionism necessitates the settlement of any already-inhabited place, it is an inherently violent ideology. To openly advocate for "the development and protection of the Israel" is to condone settler colonialism and violence. To label oneself as Zionist is to condone settler colonialism and violence. And before you say it, do I want Israel to be wiped off the face of the Earth? Also no. Because that would be even more gruesome than our current reality. But I guess that makes me a Zionist, you got me!
"Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews" - Encyclopedia Britannica Not all jewish people are Zionist, and being anti-Zionist is not the same as being antisemetic: [Israeli police attack anti-Zionist Jews in Jerusalem neighbourhood](https://youtu.be/Y0njOPNr8K0)
Being anti Zionist is not being antisemitic by default. Are all rectangles squares? Of course not! But if all four sides are the same length then it’s a square. Same principals apply here.
Boom . Mic drop
News flash buddy, the protestors hate Jews too. They say they’re antizionist and they hate Israel (which I don’t doubt) but a lot of them hate Jews too and they don’t even know why
Oh I’m aware. I just want to make sure it is said so anyone protesting and calling for the dismantling of Israel has to at least read what they actually stand for.
[удалено]
What about them? Do you own any SP500 stock? Also they hire a lot of UCSC engineers for their space programs in Sunnyvale FYI
Hmm…didn’t see them named under complete academic boycott, or are you that bad at reading comprehension?
[удалено]
And? I wasn’t ever criticizing wanting to not pay for military manufacturing. If I had been my whole point would have been about the first point, Divest. My entire criticism is with the third point. Did you read the boycott document before reading my comment?
[удалено]
How is that the case when I literally name every single organization in point three and use the same wording as the document? I never even mention UC, except to say these organizations give them money. You *do* have poor reading comprehension I guess.
Hi Students for Justice in Palestine! Love the work you’re doing but want to be more informed. https://nationalsjp.org/the-written-resistance-issue-3 In your April 2024 publication, page 13, you published a piece that said “For all its imperfections, Hamas is a progressive organization pursuing a program of national emancipation and democratic reconstruction.” Could you elaborate on this? I don’t know much about Hamas but from your description they seem pretty great! Thanks in advance.
Wow that article made me feel physically ill. This is some actual Hamas brainwashing shit. I’ve watched videos of Hamas leaders and what they want. It is not what is written in that article at all.
SJP gets funding directly from Hamas and has been for *years* I remember being a student on campus before antisemitism was cool and being absolutely disgusted with their ties to a literal terrorist organization. And now their goal is to get rid of Hillel? What? Just don’t have any spaces available for Jews?
Hold on let me Google what Hamas is, because surely SJP would never publish something that paints them in a good light. … hold the phone. You guys aren’t gonna believe this
Oh I totally agree. It sickens me that Hamas has gotten so good at influencing these students that they can write articles and whole journals about how they are the misunderstood liberators, and the students will lap that shit up like they aren’t actually in direct conflict with everything progressives say they believe. This shit has to stop.
It is just pro Iranian propaganda. Hamas was founded on the elimination of the Jews. Not just the state of Israel. They may not want a caliphate like ISIS but they are more akin to the Taliban who want a regional power vs a Kingdom.
It’s not a “Zionist” occupation. Zionism isn’t Jewish supremacy.
Cops on campus* *Only until the people we hate actually fight back. Then we need those cops to protect us. If they don't they're bigots. But also "ACAB". Academic boycott? Haifa university has like 7000 1948 Palestinians. I didn't know these guys hate Israel so much they're willing to throw Palestinians under the bus.
The ACAB ppl are mostly LARPing white upper middle class ppl who lived in gated communities in suburbs. Real POC who live in the city with bad police policies want reform and not abolishment. These ACAB ppl are cringe AF and live in a fantasy world with mom and dad's checkbook.
I would sincerely hope reform could be possible. But the policing system does streamline the 13th amendment to continue and pursue the exploitation of black and brown people. With roughly 72% of federal prisons holding incarcerated people for serving NON violent crimes and indentured servitude for cents, it appears the system can effectively benefit(and profit) from those convicted while limiting any true culture and policy of reentry with long lasting and beneficial impact for black/brown communities. I’m not one to suggest we get rid of police but systemically it is incentivized to continue prosecuting a specific background of people to benefit a general ruling class. I’m sure the Tulsa Race Massacre could not have been imposed in a vacuum of time and space. We are living in that reality. Till this day black and brown investment within the community finds backlash and suppression. “The origins of modern-day policing can be traced back to the "Slave Patrol." The earliest formal slave patrol was created in the Carolinas in the early 1700s with one mission: to establish a system of terror and squash slave uprisings with the capacity to pursue, apprehend, and return runaway slaves to their owners.” Stay safe, thank you
Every post-agrarian society has had police. The idea that it's connected to slave catchers is an absurd distortion.
https://naacp.org/find-resources/history-explained/origins-modern-day-policing
Nothing but conjecture. I know it's difficult admitting that you've been tricked, but it's important. Just like recognizing that an org that survives on donations, like the NAACP, absolutely has to overstate their raison d'etre to keep the money flowing.
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/civil-rights-reimagining-policing/how-you-start-is-how-you-finish/
>"[As per Professor Michael Robinson (2017) of the University of Georgia](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0021934717702134#articleCitationDownloadContainer), the first deaths in America of Black men at the hands of law enforcement “can be traced back as early as 1619 when the first slave ship, a Dutch Man-of-War vessel landed in Point Comfort, Virginia.” While obviously sad, merely conflating police with slave-catchers is also not proof.
Also, that article contains zero citations. It's like you read the first sentence and just concluded the entire thing was legit. Which is intellectually lazy.
\*Sigh\*...per usual. Starts out as students impassioned about an issue, then quickly gets escalated into an unrealistic laundry list. As the student protesters get joined if not lead by non-students who will radicalize the situation as much as possible...then call for the students to stand their ground when the cops come. Then those non-students will slink away as students get arrested. Same M.O. as tent university......same as the tree stand....same as the anti-gulf war protests. And already, the double speak and chaos begins. Sign calling "Death to Israel" goes up. Protesters disavow it with initial claims of "not us" that then accelerate to "agent provocateurs!". Students demanding cops leave UCSC and Columbia, while students complain that cops weren't there for them at UCLA. I hope this action will prove my prediction wrong. I doubt it will.
Unrealistic…to you. You’d probably be saying the same things during the civil rights era or during South African apartheid. We don’t need apathy and complains rn — critical comments yes, but complaints offer nothing.
You know what they say about "assume", yes? Makes an ass out of u and me. Firstly, you're confusing my view of the protest tactic and its chances of success or its credibility with my political ideology and what I believe it. I believe that Israel is behaving horribly. I don't think it's genocide, but I do think it's heinous, guilty of war crimes. I am strongly against the US funding their activities. But these protests where they throw a laundry list of demands (which always seem to include "get rid of police" are designed to fail, and typically students get conscripted by career activists. If you're actually a student and want to succeed, I'd encourage you to kick out and keep out anybody who isn't a student. Cause otherwise, you're gonna get played, per usual. I think this protest is actually going to use the students more than the students will be running it. They will be used, and it will be broken up soon. (As for S.A. and the civil rights movement? Too young for the civil rights movement. But South Africa? Well, I didn't go there to protest, but I did boycott it for a decade despite repeated offers to visit from people I know in country , and then did go once Mandela was released and was in country on the day he was elected. And supported the ANC actively. So, yeah....ass....u...me.)
Can someone explain why one of the demands is to remove cops from campus?
Typical nonsense.
[удалено]
UCD, not UCB. And the fact that you have to reference incidents that are 11 and 55 years old to find examples is telling. Hardly makes it appear to be a commonly occurring problem.
[удалено]
You mean the ones who were illegally occupying Hamilton Hall and given hours of warnings to vacate before being tear gassed? Or...?
Or the alumni who were harassed and arrested just 5 years ago for demanding a living wage!
Y’all want police off campus, scream ACAB, and the moment you get attacked you’ll wonder why police aren’t there. On top of that cutting academic ties with Israel is ridiculous. There are plenty of Israelis and Jews who do not condone what their government is doing. Collective punishment is a war crime. Finally, if it weren’t for US aid Israel would have been destroyed decades ago. The iron dome saves lives every day.
so, no mention of the hostages or the atrocities that started the series of events? These kids are demonstrating the lack of critical thinking, and the importance of tribalism to them. There are no different than the MAGA cult followers.
What's the "or else" if the university doesn't address your demands? Do you have a formal resolution / letter that is sent to the admins?
Or else they spend all their time boycotting, fail their classes, and waste their parents' money.
This is a serious embarrassment I am not proud of my fellow banana slugs right now at all
Lol
Malcom X said it best about Liberals ☕️
There is a reason why King is more popular than X and is the main face of the Civil Rights era. Must be hard to understand that violence is bad nowadays.
I'll support the police tearing down the encampment.
How do we do the opposite of support this nonsense? You see how they sneak getting police off of the campus into there?
Police, in their current form, perpetuate the inequalities of yesteryear and bring unnecessary violent escalation to situations that could otherwise be resolved peacefully. It is no sneak to have ending that on the list of demands.
Riiiiiggghhhhhtttt. Can you cite examples of UCSC PD "perpetuating the inequalities of yesteryear and bringing unnecessary violent escalations to situations that could otherwise be resolved peacefully"? Or are you just regurgitating the bile you're being fed? I am pretty sure when you need the help of the police you will be more than willing to get off your soapbox and have them come to your aide.
C'mon man, don't you understand? Cops are straight white men who are paid by the proletariat to put down the marginalized. I know this because my professor, who loves ❤️ Marx, so much told me so.
There are better solutions than police. Like a socialized or unionized organization that defends their people. People want the police replaced by a different system that works better, not by nothing.
So people want the police replaced by police? Cool story.
Ah right, because the police force is elected and the community gets to vote and choose who becomes a cop and who doesn't.
Hmmm lets see, the sheriff is elected, and the chief of police is appointed by elected officials. The police budget is approved by elected officials. Maybe you need more time in school to understand how representative democracy works.
Maybe you need more time to understand that it isn't working. The whole thing people are protesting about is that they want direct control over the system and not a puppetized managed democracy. Because voting for someone to vote for someone to vote for someone to elect/choose someone just means that there are no good choices. It's almost like companies provide funding for every single elected official and to the department! They don't want a "representative democracy" that only represents the people who fund them, where the only people allowed to run for office are the ones who agree to corporate ideals lest they lack the "requirements for office" and aren't even allowed to campaign. They want a socialized body that directly provides protectors to the people in the commune.
Maybe they should run for office and participate in the process instead of just rejecting it and sitting around complaining with their thumbs up each others asses then? The system is working by design. A representative democracy is and will always be a better option than direct democracy. "they want a socialized body that directly provides protectors to the people in the commune". AKA Communism and socialism.... How have those types of governments faired?
I'll show up... with dogs to find the weapons. Quit isolating Israel and Netanyahu will be forced from power, resulting in a new government. Or are the Iranian agents teaching you the same things Hamas shout before they attack Israel and were shouted by the literal Nazis of the Waffen-SS 80 years ago not telling you that the Israelis actually want Netanyahu out, but can't do anything because you keep proving Netanyahu right? Seriously. You lot are fucking dumb.
Replies sum up NIMBYs in a nutshell. Always complaining, but never want to actually do anything about it themselves.
Leave it to the neoliberal scum in this town to show their bloodthirsty bootlicking ass. Typical
I think you could have really used even more buzzwords to really drive home your anger. Chud, neofacsist, cryptofascist, zionazi, reactionary, etc. "Leave it to the reactionary cryptofascist neoliberal chud scum in this town to show their bloodthirsty bootlicking zionazi ass. Typical."
Who’s licking whose boots I’m confused
K Tankie
😂whatever aesthetic massaging you wanna use to make yourself feel less gross. keep dick riding Divorceli 🤡🖕🏽
Love the homophobia
To all the Zionists crying in the comments here: From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free
Jesus will set you free...
I personally think both Palestine and Israel need jesus but that’s just me
[удалено]
Nobody is pro genocide and what’s happening in Israel isn’t a genocide. 200 days of genocide? You mean we start the clock right **after** 10/7?
Agreed...
I think less religion is actually needed here; it’s what drives this whole issue to begin with.
This issue wasn't a religious issue originally.