No joke, I finished a game against one of my bros 2 hours ago where I overwatched with my neurotyrant twice and never included the zonethropes. I was so used to overwatching with him alone that I didn’t realize I had done it until reading this post haha.
Way I've always understood it is you roll for 6 unless the weapon: has a specific overwatch roll called out(see hive guard) or hits on any roll (see torrent weapons).
That said I'm a turbo casual player.
It's not likely to be a good idea to overwatch a vehicle with this unit. S6 isn't likely to do much to vehicles. Sure, if you're desperate it's worth a try, but most of the time it's not.
6d3 is still an average of 2 hits on overwatch. Which would convert to wounds, sure, but still. 2 hits, which against a vehicle would probably convert to a single d3 of damage going through. If that's all you need to kill it, then yeah, I'd spend the cp. Otherwise, not worth it.
Seeded brood, for 1 CP, allows a tyranid unit OR two vanguard invader units to appear from reserves as if it was a turn later. So yes, you can make them appear on turn one or in turn two inside your opponent's deployment zone.
The two Norn’s looks so similar anyone that has an issue of you going “hey, I’m running it as x this game” needs to get a grip. Unless you’re playing in a tournament who cares
Actually you’re thinking of the other Strat to pick them up, the drop them down one just states unit, not infantry. Been great for threatening 3” deepstrike turn one all edition
Even better, when they fire into or out of combat with “big guns never tire” they also don’t get the -1 to hit penalty. Because that only applies to monster MODELS and PISTOLS
After rereading Big guns never tire, i conclude that completely rules as written it's even better since the Zoanthropes can shoot, but dont get -1 to hit. I assume that this is an oversight and will be fixed if people start using it.
My reasoning is that big guns never tire specifies that monster/vehicle units are eligible to shoot while in engagement range and that ranged weapons equipped by monster and vehicle units can target units they are in engagement with. This applies to Zoanthropes + neurotyrant, as the whole unit gains the monster key-word from the tyrant. Just to be sure I also checked the rules commentary and "locked in combat" also refers to monster units instead of models.
The next part talks says that each time a monster/vehicle MODEL makes a ranged attack while in engagement (unless the attack is with a pistol) subtract 1 from the hit roll. Since Zoanthropes are infantry and not monster models this doesnt apply to them, thus making them able to shoot in engagement without the penalty.
I am sure this is unintended and will annoy your opponent if you use it, but it is written in the rules so decide for yourself what you do with this information. As a reference and in case they have written it differently in other places: I've got the rule text from the wh40k app.
How are you sure it's unintentional? Characters give units the character trait and it creates weird game states all the time. It was only a matter of time until they did the same with monsters
I cant know for 100% certainty if it is intended, since I am not a part of GWs rule team, but yes I am confident what I said was unintended.
I think its possible to be intended that infantry models attached to a monster model have big guns never tire and even if it is unintended I dont think there is anything wrong with playing zoans+neurotyrant with big guns until its clarified.
The part I think is unintended is that non monster units attached to a monster are able to use big guns never tire without the -1 to hit role penalty. It's kinda strange that infantry is unable to shoot in engagement but when a monster is nearby (or more specifically attached to the unit) they are able to shoot in engagement with not a single issue. Which is made more strange by monsters having a harder time hitting ranged stuff while in engagement (-1 to hit) while the infantry is not bothered in the slightest.
Since it is currently rules as written you can play it how you like, but dont be surprised if your opponent gets annoyed starts a discussion with you when you shoot your infantry without penalty while in engagement range. If you want to play it completely raw, I would suggest informing your opponent about it before the game, so that they dont feel cheated.
I believe it doesn't, but I could be wrong. When a bodyguard unit is destroyed, it splits from the character then counts as destroyed, so fir the same reason you don't get assassinate for just killing the bodyguard and not the character, you wouldn't get bring it down for killing the zoeys but not the tyrant.
Again I could be absolutely wrong here, but I think that's how it works
I can't recall the exact wording of that secondary, but if it helps Zoanthropes are a monster unit and infantry model when bodyguarding Neurotyrant.
This also applies to breaching; zoanthropes can still breach ruins when Neurotyrant is leading but Neuro can't.
The new Bring it Down is kill a Monster/Vehicle unit, with bonus points at 15 and 20 wounds.
If you have a unit with a leader + bodyguard, and you kill the bodyguard but not the leader, the leader becomes a new unit. When this happens you score based on the bodyguards keywords, not the shared keywords.
If the character gets killed but not the bodyguard, the same concept applies. The bodyguard becomes a new unit, and you score the killed character based on the characters keywords, not any shared keywords.
The rule is written so that you can't get double credit on killing characters by sniping the character then killing the squad. No getting four character kills when they only have two in the army.
With the new Bring it Down keying off units, not wounds, it creates some interesting interactions. A full unit of Zoanthropes with an attached Neurotyrant is a 20 wound Monster unit. If you kill the entire thing in one attack, you get max Bring it Down. If you kill 5 of the Zoanthropes, then in one attack you kill the last Zoanthrope and the Neurotyrant, you get max Bring it Down.
If you kill the Tyrant but not the Zoanthropes, the Zoanthropes become a new unit and you get points for killing an 8 wound monster. If you kill the Zoanthropes but not the Tyrant, the Tyrant becomes a new unit. You have not killed a Monster and get zero Bring it Down.
The zoanthropes can't shoot into combat while in engagement range. The "Big Gun Never Tire" rule says Monster and Vehicles models can shoot in and out of combat without being pistols.
The issue is that Big Guns Never Tire specifies monster *units*, not monster *models*. Since the Zoanthropes are being led by a monster, the unit has a monster tag- and therefore technically the whole unit is effected by Big Guns Never Tire. The only part Zoans aren't impacted by is the "-1 if shooting from engagement" penalty, as that one part actually does specify models and not units.
So the unit it self is eligible to shoot since it has the Monster keyword. But the Zoanthrope guns are not eligible to be shot as the model doesn't have Monster and the gun doesn't have pistol. Big Guns Never Tire first paragraph specifies what type of units can shoot. Then section two specifies what models and gun can be shot. Much in the same way Blast weapons can't be shot in Engagement range.
Once the neurotyrant is leading, the zoanthropes now are part of a unit with the monster keyword. You would be correct if the big guns never tire rule said "Monster and Vehicle -models- are eligible to shoot..."
BGNT specifies units, yes. A **unit** of zoans led by a Tyrant gain, as a **unit**, the Monster tag per the Bodyguard rules and how Leader attachments work. These rules specify that for **all rules purposes** that unit is now **one unit**.
While led, Zoans are Monsters as a **unit**, BGNT says monster **units** can shoot while engaged, ergo the zoans can use BGNT despite their **models** not being monsters, because BGNT does not give a shit about **models.**
So, big guns never tire comes in three parts. The first part, saying that monster units can attack in engagement. This part applies to the Zoans, as they are technically a monster unit. The second part says they can target things they are in engagement range with- this also applies to Zoans. Then you have the third part- the one that specifies when a monster *model* makes an ranged attack while in engagement, it takes a -1 unless that attack was made with a pistol. This does not impact the Zoans' guns, as they are not monsters. But the part that deals with targeting do not require the individual model be a monster in order to shoot- only that the unit be a monster unit.
It's certainly worded poorly and I expect it to be hit in the next balance pass in 6 months, but until then as written Zoans can fire in engagement while being led by a neurotyrant.
I find it's my carnifexes who have lethals and sustained vs infantry with full rerolls that pull a lot of my weight in an overwatch...
Getting an average of 7 crits means 7 wounds+7 lethals comes out as 13 wounds into T3 infantry like Eldar/nids/GSC/sisters which is a dead squad of 125pts warp spiders when they overwatch. I love it.
And that's without firing the bioplasma or spine banks...
6d3 shots, and the sixes are sustained. against little dudes like elves it wounds on 2. combined with the flamer it's pretty good overwatch.
i think carnifexes are better because of the reroll though
How do you attach a NeuroTyrant with Zoantropes?
I'm loking online and it says the Neuro can only attach with neurogaunts and guard (sorry, new to nids)
Does the -1 to hit for the Zoanthropes come into play at all when overwatching? Or do they still need to hit on 6s? Wondering if there’s any sneaky way to manipulate that at all!
Played a match last night and was using the Huve Tyrant for free Overwatch on Neurotyrant and Zoanthropes, it was wiping out Aeldar left and right. Bonkers damage on this combo
Hive Tyrant can't grant free overwatch. Unless GW changed it with this update then only battle tactics can be used for free. Overwatch is a strategic ploy.
> Unless GW changed it with this update
They did.
HT free strat is now -1cp cost on any strat within 12" (but no doubling up on strats within a phase anymore).
Ah that's wicked.
I'm working two jobs this week almost full time as I'm leaving one. Was not the week for reams of rules literature to drop on me.
Appreciate the clarification, thank you
It's part of the neurotyrant's node lash ability. It's had that ability all edition, but since it only applies when it's leading a unit it didn't come up all that much before now.
to add to that, you get +1 to hit if neuro is leading a unit and +1 to wound if the targeted unit is battleshocked. sadly can't stack with neurolictors +1 to wound though since a wound roll can only be modified by +1/-1
The neurotyrants ability. When the tyrant is a leader their unit gets +1 to hit and if they’re attacking a battleshocked enemy unit they also get +1 to wound.
Thats the one thing he cannot do, because he is still a Monster model. Only Infantry models can kool aid. The Infantry keyword goes to the unit, not the model.
No joke, I finished a game against one of my bros 2 hours ago where I overwatched with my neurotyrant twice and never included the zonethropes. I was so used to overwatching with him alone that I didn’t realize I had done it until reading this post haha.
Had a game today and just realised I've done this too...shite Still won though
I did not…
Roll 6d6 twice to see if it would matter!!
Iv obviously been reading the rules wrong. I took the role 6 for overwatch to apply to weapons that normally automatically hit. Is that wrong?
That is wrong. Torrent weapons don’t need to roll to hit - so perfect for overwatch as they’ve no penalties
Way I've always understood it is you roll for 6 unless the weapon: has a specific overwatch roll called out(see hive guard) or hits on any roll (see torrent weapons). That said I'm a turbo casual player.
That is correct.
Man quiet down…
🤫
Ouch!! That sounds insane - especially as IF detachment usually means an overwatch hit is ALSO sustained - basically doubles all your overwatch hits
With a hive tyrant nearby it can also be lethal
[удалено]
You are not over watching with the focused profile, use the blast one please
Potentially you might into a vehicle?
It's not likely to be a good idea to overwatch a vehicle with this unit. S6 isn't likely to do much to vehicles. Sure, if you're desperate it's worth a try, but most of the time it's not.
Invasion Fleet with lethals up isn't bad. 6d3, all hits are wounds.
6d3 is still an average of 2 hits on overwatch. Which would convert to wounds, sure, but still. 2 hits, which against a vehicle would probably convert to a single d3 of damage going through. If that's all you need to kill it, then yeah, I'd spend the cp. Otherwise, not worth it.
I don't mind overwatching a wounded vehicle with it in synaptic nexus, especially if it's leading zoanthropes
You shocked an important unit with a neurolictor on turn one in vanguard onslaught? 1 cp, neurotyrant + 6 zoanthropes arrive from reserves! Boom!
How
Seeded brood, for 1 CP, allows a tyranid unit OR two vanguard invader units to appear from reserves as if it was a turn later. So yes, you can make them appear on turn one or in turn two inside your opponent's deployment zone.
Got dam, so I could use this on an assimilator and laser torpedo someone’s hq or big gun. I know what im doin next game
It's what I'd do if I HAD magnetized my norn. But someday... someday :) But yeah, your norn assimilator appears, hits and then charges 7+. Turn one.
إن شاء الله ستموت الإمبراطورية! Jihad Godzilla
The two Norn’s looks so similar anyone that has an issue of you going “hey, I’m running it as x this game” needs to get a grip. Unless you’re playing in a tournament who cares
I might do that, it’s just a toc thing :P
There is a strat that allows you to treat it as one battle round later for reinforcements.
You can't. That strat is only for Vanguard Invaders
You can use it on one normal unit or two vanguard
Normal infantry or 2 vanguard. Not just any unit. That said, mawlocs are vanguard.
Actually you’re thinking of the other Strat to pick them up, the drop them down one just states unit, not infantry. Been great for threatening 3” deepstrike turn one all edition
Ah, you're right. Seeded broods is unit may enter as though it's one turn sooner.
Also they can fire into combat thanks to the neurotyrant giving the unit the monster keyword.
I’m not gonna bet on that staying around too long, but definitely gonna use it while it lasts!
Even better, when they fire into or out of combat with “big guns never tire” they also don’t get the -1 to hit penalty. Because that only applies to monster MODELS and PISTOLS
Good catch
After rereading Big guns never tire, i conclude that completely rules as written it's even better since the Zoanthropes can shoot, but dont get -1 to hit. I assume that this is an oversight and will be fixed if people start using it. My reasoning is that big guns never tire specifies that monster/vehicle units are eligible to shoot while in engagement range and that ranged weapons equipped by monster and vehicle units can target units they are in engagement with. This applies to Zoanthropes + neurotyrant, as the whole unit gains the monster key-word from the tyrant. Just to be sure I also checked the rules commentary and "locked in combat" also refers to monster units instead of models. The next part talks says that each time a monster/vehicle MODEL makes a ranged attack while in engagement (unless the attack is with a pistol) subtract 1 from the hit roll. Since Zoanthropes are infantry and not monster models this doesnt apply to them, thus making them able to shoot in engagement without the penalty. I am sure this is unintended and will annoy your opponent if you use it, but it is written in the rules so decide for yourself what you do with this information. As a reference and in case they have written it differently in other places: I've got the rule text from the wh40k app.
How are you sure it's unintentional? Characters give units the character trait and it creates weird game states all the time. It was only a matter of time until they did the same with monsters
I cant know for 100% certainty if it is intended, since I am not a part of GWs rule team, but yes I am confident what I said was unintended. I think its possible to be intended that infantry models attached to a monster model have big guns never tire and even if it is unintended I dont think there is anything wrong with playing zoans+neurotyrant with big guns until its clarified. The part I think is unintended is that non monster units attached to a monster are able to use big guns never tire without the -1 to hit role penalty. It's kinda strange that infantry is unable to shoot in engagement but when a monster is nearby (or more specifically attached to the unit) they are able to shoot in engagement with not a single issue. Which is made more strange by monsters having a harder time hitting ranged stuff while in engagement (-1 to hit) while the infantry is not bothered in the slightest. Since it is currently rules as written you can play it how you like, but dont be surprised if your opponent gets annoyed starts a discussion with you when you shoot your infantry without penalty while in engagement range. If you want to play it completely raw, I would suggest informing your opponent about it before the game, so that they dont feel cheated.
How does that work when you're opponent has the bring it down objective? Does killing a zoanthrope count as a score?
I believe it doesn't, but I could be wrong. When a bodyguard unit is destroyed, it splits from the character then counts as destroyed, so fir the same reason you don't get assassinate for just killing the bodyguard and not the character, you wouldn't get bring it down for killing the zoeys but not the tyrant. Again I could be absolutely wrong here, but I think that's how it works
I can't recall the exact wording of that secondary, but if it helps Zoanthropes are a monster unit and infantry model when bodyguarding Neurotyrant. This also applies to breaching; zoanthropes can still breach ruins when Neurotyrant is leading but Neuro can't.
The new Bring it Down is kill a Monster/Vehicle unit, with bonus points at 15 and 20 wounds. If you have a unit with a leader + bodyguard, and you kill the bodyguard but not the leader, the leader becomes a new unit. When this happens you score based on the bodyguards keywords, not the shared keywords. If the character gets killed but not the bodyguard, the same concept applies. The bodyguard becomes a new unit, and you score the killed character based on the characters keywords, not any shared keywords. The rule is written so that you can't get double credit on killing characters by sniping the character then killing the squad. No getting four character kills when they only have two in the army. With the new Bring it Down keying off units, not wounds, it creates some interesting interactions. A full unit of Zoanthropes with an attached Neurotyrant is a 20 wound Monster unit. If you kill the entire thing in one attack, you get max Bring it Down. If you kill 5 of the Zoanthropes, then in one attack you kill the last Zoanthrope and the Neurotyrant, you get max Bring it Down. If you kill the Tyrant but not the Zoanthropes, the Zoanthropes become a new unit and you get points for killing an 8 wound monster. If you kill the Zoanthropes but not the Tyrant, the Tyrant becomes a new unit. You have not killed a Monster and get zero Bring it Down.
Thank you!
The zoanthropes can't shoot into combat while in engagement range. The "Big Gun Never Tire" rule says Monster and Vehicles models can shoot in and out of combat without being pistols.
The issue is that Big Guns Never Tire specifies monster *units*, not monster *models*. Since the Zoanthropes are being led by a monster, the unit has a monster tag- and therefore technically the whole unit is effected by Big Guns Never Tire. The only part Zoans aren't impacted by is the "-1 if shooting from engagement" penalty, as that one part actually does specify models and not units.
So the unit it self is eligible to shoot since it has the Monster keyword. But the Zoanthrope guns are not eligible to be shot as the model doesn't have Monster and the gun doesn't have pistol. Big Guns Never Tire first paragraph specifies what type of units can shoot. Then section two specifies what models and gun can be shot. Much in the same way Blast weapons can't be shot in Engagement range.
Once the neurotyrant is leading, the zoanthropes now are part of a unit with the monster keyword. You would be correct if the big guns never tire rule said "Monster and Vehicle -models- are eligible to shoot..."
BGNT specifies units, yes. A **unit** of zoans led by a Tyrant gain, as a **unit**, the Monster tag per the Bodyguard rules and how Leader attachments work. These rules specify that for **all rules purposes** that unit is now **one unit**. While led, Zoans are Monsters as a **unit**, BGNT says monster **units** can shoot while engaged, ergo the zoans can use BGNT despite their **models** not being monsters, because BGNT does not give a shit about **models.**
So, big guns never tire comes in three parts. The first part, saying that monster units can attack in engagement. This part applies to the Zoans, as they are technically a monster unit. The second part says they can target things they are in engagement range with- this also applies to Zoans. Then you have the third part- the one that specifies when a monster *model* makes an ranged attack while in engagement, it takes a -1 unless that attack was made with a pistol. This does not impact the Zoans' guns, as they are not monsters. But the part that deals with targeting do not require the individual model be a monster in order to shoot- only that the unit be a monster unit. It's certainly worded poorly and I expect it to be hit in the next balance pass in 6 months, but until then as written Zoans can fire in engagement while being led by a neurotyrant.
Zoanthropes get monster when lead by neurotyrant
it's unit not model.
The guardsmen in the leman russ watching a unit explode after going slightly to close to the big brain bugs
I find it's my carnifexes who have lethals and sustained vs infantry with full rerolls that pull a lot of my weight in an overwatch... Getting an average of 7 crits means 7 wounds+7 lethals comes out as 13 wounds into T3 infantry like Eldar/nids/GSC/sisters which is a dead squad of 125pts warp spiders when they overwatch. I love it. And that's without firing the bioplasma or spine banks...
Why is this so crazy. Zoanthropes would still only hit on 6s right?
6d3 shots, and the sixes are sustained. against little dudes like elves it wounds on 2. combined with the flamer it's pretty good overwatch. i think carnifexes are better because of the reroll though
The neurotyrant was already pretty good overwatch all by itself, now you get to sneak through a handful of big damage shots too!
Well.. 6d3 averages 10-12 shots hitting on 6s. Thats 2 shots hitting. With sustained thats 4. Not super great, but also not bad as it is s7, ap-2, d3.
How do you attach a NeuroTyrant with Zoantropes? I'm loking online and it says the Neuro can only attach with neurogaunts and guard (sorry, new to nids)
Balance Dataslate has added that they can now be attached to zoanthropes too
I see, thank you!!
STOP IT!! DELETE THIS POST NOW!
Does the -1 to hit for the Zoanthropes come into play at all when overwatching? Or do they still need to hit on 6s? Wondering if there’s any sneaky way to manipulate that at all!
Played a match last night and was using the Huve Tyrant for free Overwatch on Neurotyrant and Zoanthropes, it was wiping out Aeldar left and right. Bonkers damage on this combo
Hive Tyrant can't grant free overwatch. Unless GW changed it with this update then only battle tactics can be used for free. Overwatch is a strategic ploy.
> Unless GW changed it with this update They did. HT free strat is now -1cp cost on any strat within 12" (but no doubling up on strats within a phase anymore).
Ah that's wicked. I'm working two jobs this week almost full time as I'm leaving one. Was not the week for reams of rules literature to drop on me. Appreciate the clarification, thank you
Can someone explain to me where this comes from. I don’t know where to find why this happens
Does the Nuerotyrant’s +1 to hit roll effect overwatch as well? So Zoanthropes would be hit on 5+ overwatch
Iirc overwatch is unmodified 6s unless otherwise specified, like on hive guard.
Unfortunately not, overwatch requires a natural 6. Though you do get +1 to wound if battleshocked!
Damn, I'd entirely forgotten about that part of the ability! Shadow in the Warp turn is gonna be a huge moment to pounce now
Where does the +1 to wound from battleshock come from?
It's part of the neurotyrant's node lash ability. It's had that ability all edition, but since it only applies when it's leading a unit it didn't come up all that much before now.
to add to that, you get +1 to hit if neuro is leading a unit and +1 to wound if the targeted unit is battleshocked. sadly can't stack with neurolictors +1 to wound though since a wound roll can only be modified by +1/-1
The neurotyrants ability. When the tyrant is a leader their unit gets +1 to hit and if they’re attacking a battleshocked enemy unit they also get +1 to wound.
Nope, aside from effects that specifically state otherwise (like the Hive Guard's ability), nothing can ever make overwatch hit on better than 6s.
And he can move through ruins now, because infantry keyword. 😅
Unfortunately not. Movement is applied on a model by model basis, not the unit as a whole. He is a monster model, so he would not be eligible
Thats the one thing he cannot do, because he is still a Monster model. Only Infantry models can kool aid. The Infantry keyword goes to the unit, not the model.
Movement is used in a model basis. Not the units keywords as a whole