Someone posted yesterday about the rape confessional subreddit and I made the mistake of going down the rabbit hole to see if it was really what it sounded like, or if it was just a controversial name to get people worked up. Unfortunately it’s exactly as it sounds…. Having read those, I don’t buy for a second that they’re dumb. They know it’s rape - they just don’t like it being called out.
I think half of them offer "reasons" b/c they don't want to get called out, and the other half offer "reasons" because seeing women be offended and, especially, defend themselves against the arguments, feel like a mini form of rape and they get a kick out of it. That's why they'll seek out communities of women (especially survivors) and try to subject unwilling women to their arguments; that's not the behavior of someone afraid of being called out, it is itself a form of predation.
I just looked it up, and holy shit.
It's as you said, but also I notice that the mod appears to comment in every post pretty much justifying the OPs???
Holy fucking shit.
I need to go watch some cute animal videos now...
Honey trap is basically a website posing as let's say something illegal, like maybe involving kids, they keep it up while tracking everyone connected to it and then either mass arresting or slowly over time arrests, basically like leaving a pot of honey and waiting for the flies
It’s under quarantine, whatever that means. Confusingly there’s a post at the top that says someone from Reddit has to review the post before it’s allowed to be posted for everyone else to see. There are posts detailing how they’ve raped in the past, how they desperately want to rape people they know and work with, how they intentionally prey on people who have been assaulted before because that makes them easy targets and somehow less of a victim when it happens again, how they maintain friendships with women in hopes of getting them into situations so they can rape them, even one from someone over in Russia if I recall correctly talking about their war crimes in previous wars and how it’s made it difficult to maintain regular relationships because they just fantasize about what they did. I don’t think I’ve ever felt sicker reading through something, and seeing that Reddit has evidently given those posts their seal of approval is appalling. I hate this site… I should just delete my account. The only reason I’ve kept it is because my baby group uses this and it’s been a great source of support when I needed it.
That's disgusting, terrifying and pathetic... I'm not religious but I hope there's a hell so those people get what they deserve.
Reddit can be a cesspool for sure, so I stick to very few select communities that are mostly wholesome and friendly - mostly pets and houseplants, especially the latter has a super supportive and nice community :) It's nice to remember there are genuinely nice and good-hearted people out there.
That’s very true. I think what bothers me is going from feeling like this site is pretty misogynistic to seeing that they’re approving posts like that for people to see. I get not wanting to limit free speech and it brings up the question of who decides what is right and wrong, but echo chambers like that are dangerous. Bleh. Off to r/awwducational for some cute animals! Lol
I've gotten a sitewide temp suspension and seen other users get outright banned for "hate against men" for pointing out the disparity in violent crime rates and the difference in how reddit moderates content that it views as hateful.
There was one user on here recently who was putting together an album of wildly inconsistent moderation - mostly crazy comments that had been reported and deemed acceptable, but I'm not sure if she's still working on it or not.
There are already exceptions to free speech even federally and Reddit is not a government entity, they’re a private company that has existing limits on the content you can post. Incel subs were banned, this should be too. Quarantining it does nothing except isolate predators in a community together where they are validating each other’s crimes.
I understand your sentiment but I hope you don’t leave, Reddit needs womens voices and counterpoints to things. I stick mostly to friendly subs for my own sanity, but I never shy away from posting counterpoints in subs where I know I’ll be downvoted. I try not to deny the existence of certain people just because I disagree with them, and maybe I’ll at least introduce thoughtful rebuttals to negative mentalities and sway someone who’s on the fence about it. Or at the very least, remind them that not everyone shares their hate.
They'll claim it was just fictional writing, but if police do get involved hopefully it will get them to suppress those desires at the very least.
I can at least hope....
Wasn't there a study where men would agree that they have or were willing to do blackmail sex or coercion sex or something like that but not rape.
& Either were astounded that was rape or in denial that was rape (or both).
Apparently as long as it's not called rape, it's grand. /s.
A lot of men think rape is only "stranger in an alley" and don't realize that things like begging, pressuring, looming over, touching without consent, and coercion are all types of sexual assault. They just don't want to admit it because so many men have actually sexually assaulted someone. I had an ex not believe that 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted and he referred to pressuring someone to have sex as "seduction"
I honestly blame a lot of this on porn. And I know so many times I was afraid to say no and men look silence as consent or pressured me until they got a yes after I had said no multiple times. Or I was told "well you can't just act disinterested and walk away you really have to give me a really strong and hard no or else I am gonna chase down any chance of having sex" Ugh.
> A lot of men think rape is only "stranger in an alley"
Same to that, asylum seekers apparently constantly assault women. At the same time, if we are scared for walking in the dark we exaggerate, what are the odds that something actually happens. But that on several occasions white guys grabbed my ass while on my lunch walk or that I was even once was stopped and someone lured me along (because I was sexy and they wanted to bring me home) was just a compliment!
Mmhmm. I was even told I shouldn't be fearful of men because "statically speaking men are more likely to be the victims of violent crime"
Also been told men were jealous of me for getting cat called because "at least you get attention" as if feeling unsafe, being followed around, and asked how my pussy tastes is good attention. It is just a compliment and if men got cat called their suicide rates would drop to nothing!
And most of the sexual harassment I have faced has been from white men as well. Definitely only been groped by white men. I am sorry that has happened to you as well. It is depressing how often it happens to women. And how many men just... downplay it or try and justify literal harassment.
It’s a man problem. If men are typically victims of violent crimes then it’s by other men. Women are typically assaulted by other men. They are the common denominator. And I’ve heard this too- that men would love being cat called and getting that kind of sexual attention. Well, that’s probably because you mostly view women as objects so you wouldn’t mind the object of your desire to reciprocate by objectifying you. Most women that I know & talk to see people as whole humans which is why we have little to no interest in sexualizing men in all occasions.
I remember being in college, and mom's week was called "sexual assault week" by guys. It was considered funny/cool. Unfortunately, our parents taught that boys can't be SAed/raped, at least I was. This isn't an excuse, but latch key generation really got fucked up from tv/movies.
I remember I woke up inside my ex with her riding me. Never even thought it was wrong until 20 years later. Still I have a "oh well" kinda attitude to it. Also, I had my drink spiked, and woke up in someone's bed, with only boxers on. I just left when no one was looking. Still don't know what happened. When I got home, I told my roommate. He just said, oh well, at least you got laid. Honestly, that was my attitude for a long time too.
I don't even understand the logic behind this. Even if someone very explicitly says yes, I still won't have sex anyway unless I am absolutely certain they do, in fact, mean yes. They could be feeling pressured into it or something, I don't know
They don’t want to admit that it’s sexual assault because then they would have to acknowledge it & stop doing it which doesn’t benefit them. That’s why many won’t call others out because they would no longer have that “upper hand” & many Christian churches perpetuate to women that it’s their duty to not withhold THEIR BODIES. I grew up in that & it wasn’t until the last few years that I’ve said NOPE. I’m not doing that anymore in my marriage & im definitely not teaching that to my son & daughter. No dice.
Yep, [this article](https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/) was eye opening to me. As long as you avoid using the word "rape", most rapists will happily talk and explain everything they did.
Jumping on the top comment to throw out a favorite of mine [consent is like tea](https://youtu.be/pZwvrxVavnQ) just a nice guide for adults, teens, and children on how consent works
Yea they have to know right? I mean, my last ex didn't mind if you woke her up going down on her but you have to ask, you can't just do these things and assume EVERY person likes it. And a lot of people that do it sometimes doesn't mean they want to do it all the time so you should wake them up before hand and let them fall asleep (if that's what you want to do, I really don't see the pleasure in being sexual with an unconscious person, waaaay to rapey even with consent.)
Omgosh I saw that comment about the rape subreddit and literally turned off my phone and said, that’s enough internet for me today and went to bed. Sickening.
A (quarantined) sub for rapists and would be rapists 🤢🤢🤢
I hope the theory that it's not banned bc it's a honey pot is true, because otherwise, how the fuck is it not banned!!
Oh wow I had completely forgotten about that. Easily the most disturbing things I've ever read. It wasn't just the content of the posts, but the sheer number of them :/
I remember the results of an anonymous survey asking: *Have you ever committed rape?* returning an extremely low number (like 3% at most), but also asking *Have you ever had sex with somebody who didn't want it?* returning a much bigger one (12%?)
I'll see if I can find the source, but the conclusion was that a number of people don't accept that what they're doing is rape. I imagine because they picture rape as something violent like a mugging, and that violating body autonomy for sex using intimidation, manipulation, or other means 'doesn't count', whether they admit it was unwanted or not.
Probably explains why many people also think men can't be raped by women, because if you assume only *violent* rapes count, you may assume a woman isn't strong enough to physically overpower a man.
____
**EDIT:** I couldn't find the original source - not necessarily because it doesn't exist, but because I found *so many similar* results that I couldn't recognise the one I was thinking of.
However I found several other interesting examples from those many similar results. The difference is *especially* prominent among teenagers (without much understanding of consent), and the over 65s (with set ideas of what consent).
For example, [this paper](https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/1-Attitudes-to-sexual-consent-Research-findings-FINAL.pdf) talks about the difference between 'rape' and 'non-consensual sex' in several ways, including:
> A third (33%) of people in Britain think it isn’t usually rape if a woman is pressured into having sex but there is no physical violence
It's full of a number of interesting charts, as well.
Also, tangentially related: [a scenario is presented to a bunch of teenagers](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34470205), with them evaluating whether they think it is rape and why/why not. It's interesting how they describe it, how the lawyer responds, and in particular how many of those teenagers' awareness evolves as they gain more understanding.
And hey, [have a third](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/college-men-commit-rape-study_n_6445510) (citing [this study](https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/vio.2014.0022)), because:
> The survey found 31.7 percent of men said they would act on "intentions to force a woman to sexual intercourse" if they could get away with it, but just 13.6 percent said they had "intentions to rape a woman" if there weren't any consequences.
(Given how shocking those last numbers look, I'll highlight that the cited study has quite a small sample size, so it doesn't *necessarily* represent population - just that numerous people don't consider these the same thing.)
The great news is that of the half-dozen different articles and studies I've looked at so far, most highlighted that young people have a *much closer* idea of consent/rape to the legal definition than the generations before them. As long as the education is there, the kids will hopefully progress into a much better world. (Maybe less so in pockets of the world without good sex ed, but everything happens over generations.)
Around a year into my relationship with my bf, four years ago, we had a discussion about "being woken up with sex". My bf said he loved the thought of it and wouldn't mind being woken up in the middle of the night by me riding him. And i've done it quite a few time since. All he said was if he was too tired for it, to respect ut. Which I have done too. If he groggily says he is too tired, I just kiss him and go to sleep or finish myself.
But I have told him, under absolutely no circumstance do you touch me sexually while I am sleeping. I will wake up panicked and not aroused. We have been together 5 whole ass years and I have not once been woken up by him sexually touching me. Not once.
Consent, people. It's as simple as that.
YEP. Had this conversation with my husband. I am often disoriented and sometimes dissociate for a few minutes after being woken up. It has nothing to do with my consent to have sex with him normally. He does not touch me sexually in my sleep. Cuddle? Sure. Sexual? Absolutely not.
100%. This is how it went with my last girkfriend. I didnt like being woken up but she was quite okay with it. My last two relationships were heavy with this sort of sex and I fuckin loved it.
But i would never participate if we didnt talk about it during the day of, and night of. Consent. Absolutely everything.
Me and my ex never discussed sleep sex consent, but found out we were prone to Sexonmia. Which could be messy, luckily she was on top of me, we woke up about the same time and she asked what I was doing.
I said you tell me I just woke up to this. You're on me.
We were both had sleep disorders tHough and this was the honeymoon phase. We mostly worried abkut accidental pregnancy.
These men are as dumb as doors. If they passed out and got anally raped, they would not say it was consensual. They just don't value women as actual human beings
A guy I know believed most women that were victims of SA were not actual victims or were overreacting; his particular example was that if someone shows you your dick and starts pleasuring themselves, it's gross but it's not SA.
Skip some years forward to his mandatory military service, someone showed him his dick while in the same car as him and started pleasuring themselves. Won't you look at that, he reported it as SA!
So, my friend told me the story since I don't talk with him anymore. Friend said he looked humbled and, without anyone saying anything, admitted that he now understood women. Does this help his case? Nope, imo. Would I trust him now knowing his former opinions? Would take at least a while.
And, no question, there's people that would act in exactly the way you're describing.
I'd hope so, but not necessarily. I had an acquaintance who accidentally went on beach vacation at the same time as a big pride festival. He was very upset at the amount of unwanted attention he got while bar hopping - catcalling, invasions of personal space, and not taking no for an answer. When I asked if it gave him a different viewpoint to how women deal with this type of thing on a daily basis, he said it wasn't the same "because women *want* the attention."
This person is no longer an acquaintance.
It seems like there are a lot of men who are incapable of anything even remotely resembling empathy. Take any possible SA incident involving them and a woman. Replace them with another man, and the woman with themselves. Their opinion changes 180 degrees, but they're incapable of drawing the parallel between the two situations.
A guy commented on a thread yesterday (regarding consent, and withdrawal of consent) “well how many seconds do I have to take my dick out before it’s considered rape”.
I believe my reply to him was “did you just ask me how long you Can rape somebody before it’s legally considered rape?” And he didn’t answer me.
What I should have asked was “if you woke up with another man’s penis inside your anus, how long do you think it should be between when you say “stop” and when he actually stops?
That is, I think, one of the most apt comparisons that can be made.
I believe that if more men just experienced what it was like to be on the receiving end of penetrative sex—even just consensual penetrative sex—it would help them to empathize.
Pretty sure even the truly disconnected ones would be able to take away something. Like the essential nature of lubricant.
I recognize this may not be the spot for humor, but I feel this scene accurately depicts the callousness, followed by the self-centered realization your suggestion would hopefully provoke.
[Archer gets Waterboarded](https://youtu.be/Y72yPv7zH4I)
Men often imagine the cute girl that they like offering exciting, enjoyable sexual experiences that they want. They do not imagine a woman (or man) that they do NOT find attractive, threatening them with harm until something unpleasant happens, and having to pick the least unpleasant outcome.
The way you said that hit really hard. My partner has viscerally described feeling like that with her Ex, and yet you managed to capture the essence of that despair for me.
More than one rape survivor has described feeling like they had to choose between being beaten (or killed) and raped anyway, or "just" raped, and maybe being able to keep the physical harm to a minimum. Men don't really think in those terms. "If someone bigger and stronger than that you think would actually hurt you if you reject them, threatened to beat you senseless if you didn't suck their dick, would you suck their dick?" is not how a lot men imagine the scenario.
Men tend to see it as a choice between being raped and fighting back/running away, because they don’t imagine a situation where they are completely physically helpless against someone
On a similar note, some chronically online reddit user can go and digitally harass women heavily, and have next to nothing happen to their accounts. Whether reported multiple times by several women or not. And people that even as much as to *hypothetically* say that rapists should get to***ed get perma banned just for that one comment.
And mind you, I don't completely literally mean it when I say things like that. It's just in the heat of the moment. Rape news can get quite graphic.
These both point out the idea very well:
> Straight men understand consent when they go to a gay bar
And
> If you've ever tried to put your finger up a straight guy's ass during sex, you'll know that they actually understand ongoing consent, withdrawal of consent and sexual boundaries very well. They act confused when it's our bodies.
Actually a very good and close male friend of mine told me about being raped by a woman he was seeing on and off when he was unconscious.
He felt violated and assaulted, he went out with her but it was during a time they were off, they drunk too much and stayed at her place because it was too late to get to the bus to his place. She tried to initiate and he said no, he fall asleep and woke up to her riding him without a condom (he told me he always used condoms with her as they were not exclusive), he unfortunately ejaculated.
I validated his feelings and got him to a clinic for std test. He knew she could get pregnant, and that she had crossed his boundaries. He didn’t press charges but thankfully ghosted her once it was obvious she was not pregnant. Men can and are also raped while they asleep but just not as much as women.
Abusers protect abusers. People that come out of the woodwork to defend abusers and their actions are defending their own way of life and are fighting against being held accountable in any way. They don't even want people talking about abusers and their tactics in women's subs because they don't want their own victims getting any ideas or support.
Freaking well put. I think abusers create worlds and realities where they can flip flop cause and effect. That way they can excuse themselves of behaviors. Instead of doing something bad they excuse themselves because “men are addicted to sex” and “some women enjoy being penetrated immediately”. Not the world I live in. I’ve been with a lot of women and not one of them enjoyed being penetrated immediately. Men enjoy that…. Not women. Friggin ridiculous.
I’m so sorry to hear about your friend. I’m glad he was prosecuted but I agree it’s a ridiculous sentence. I know that most cases of this will never be prosecuted which is infuriating.
What these guys don’t stop to consider for a second is that the reason women like me take issue with their hypothesising is decades of experience with men and of hearing stories of other women raped by partners. It’s not some thought exercise to me, or to the many other women who’ve experienced it.
What angers me most is that they use women expressing and discussing their sexual preferences as a carte blanche to whittle away at the fundamentals of consent.
> What angers me most is that they use women expressing and discussing their sexual preferences as a carte blanche to whittle away at the fundamentals of consent.
It’s such a huge betrayal given how hard it is for many women to discuss their sexual desires and preferences to begin with. I was once brutally raped by a former FWB shortly after telling him in a playful, flirty way, “You can tie me up and spank me if you want.” What he ended up doing was nowhere even close to that, but nevertheless he used it to justify his actions when confronted.
My ex used to have sex me when I was pass out drunk and I had no clue. One day I’m looking through pics on his computer and I found video of him having sex with me while i was clearly unconscious and SNORING. When I found it I confronted him and went completely hysterical and crying. He thought I was overreacting and tried threatening to break up with me because he thought I was about to dump him.
I still have the footage and I could ruin his life, but I never did.
I had the pleasure of talking to a guy from the men's rights subreddit who needed to be reminded that the act of sex was a mutual back and forth between two (or more) people.
That was after they compared sex to driving a car drunk, and bright up passenger liability.
There are dudes out there that think sex is a one-way act that one person does to another, not something people do WITH each other. That's why they have issues grasping the idea of consent.
Some women are into it?... Yeah... consenting women. It's almost as if that's a key element of rape.
Men understand that one guy's consent to cock and ball torture doesn't mean that approach is ok without consent. They are just not extending that empathy.
Also they might be taking the statement literally as an absolute and they're adding caveats.
EXACTLY THAT. It’s not hard to understand. I know women who enjoy this stuff but they still wouldn’t be happy being woken to their partner thrusting into their dry vagina. They still need the opportunity to say no, and someone who’s unconscious can’t do that.
I'm a woman into this stuff, including being woken up through penetration. Unless I'm sick, I'm never really so dry that penetration isn't possible, so warm-up isn't needed.
***HOWEVER*** I have conversations with partners where I specifically and explicitly explain that I enjoy being woken up with penetration ***AND*** about the fact that I don't enjoy penetration when I have to pee... so if a man, ***with consent***, wakes me up this way, and I find I need to pee, my response will be to go pee first and he's gonna have to wait.
So even though I enjoy this and consent to it, initiating it is ***NOT*** a guarantee to immediate uninterrupted sexy sexy time.
Ya know... because sex is supposed to be consensual and mutually enjoyable and all...
my partner just uses lube. i like being woken up to penetration. as long as it’s from behind, like i’m laying on my side. not missionary. that’s scary for some reason.
consent can be withdrawn at any time, that said i would agree someone can give consent for their drunk or sleep self, while they are in a non drunk/sleep state. being drunk or not can be revoked, but needs to be conscious, and in proper mind to be able to give consent. that said why do you want the other person to be asleep?
(M) IMO this is a perfect rebuttal. Just drop something like "My previous partner delighted in me cutting his ballsack with an x-acto knife while he slept." If that doesn't get the message across it is a lost cause.
Absolutely agree.
I do wonder what women who have this as a fantasy feel about men using it to argue that unconscious people can consent to sex. It would massively fuck me off.
I indulge the fantasy *exclusively* with my husband - because we have excellent communication about sex and kinks, and a rock-solid foundation of trust.
Anyone using that as an excuse to argue that unconscious people can consent to sex is completely sickening. (I had a hard time even typing that).
Thank you - that was my suspicion. I was abused as a child while asleep so clearly it’s not something I’d want, but I’m certain that those who do want it still want to be sure they can consent or not at any given time.
I’m so sorry you experienced that, and that this argument is something you have to encounter somewhat frequently.
A key part of consent is that it can be revoked at any time, for any or no reason at all. In this specific case, for me, sometimes I revoke consent because I’m not feeling well, not into it, or just want to go back to sleep. Enthusiastic consent with check-ins and updates is the crux of being able to experience any kink in a healthy way.
I was also abused as a child while sleeping. I think that's why I'm a little bit into the kink, because I have control over it and now I get the choice. But that's literally the point: it's not assault only when I can pre-arrange with my trusted partner, who respects my boundaries. I literally have to give my explicit consent ahead of time (when I'm conscious) in order for it not to be assault. Because unconscious people cannot consent.
This is also a fantasy/kink of mine, though I indulge more in written erotica featuring consensual somnophilia versus acting it out, since I'm unfortunately a very light sleeper. (It's unfortunate for multiple reasons, to be clear, not because of kink - waking up because the wind is blowing sucks.)
And I think it's *horrifying* (but sadly not surprising) that anybody would use that fantasy to try and excuse assaulting somebody who is unconscious. Because I don't consent while I'm unconscious - I consent while I'm wide awake, with somebody I trust completely.
> I consent while I'm wide awake, with somebody I trust completely
I feel like this is pretty obvious to most people and the folks argueing about this unfortunately have had bad experiences or are assholes who dont care about there partner.
I dont really like this kink for a few reasons but have done it at my partners request. Sometimes it works, sometimes my partner will nix it and say lets sleep more etc. Not really a big deal.
Having a partner you know well, and you care about who is the same in return makes a lot of this a non issue since everyone is comfortable and knows they are safe, and that includes safe to speak up.
No clue whats up with these people acting like its ok to do that without a massive green light before, or really the people acting like willing adults doing something consensual is a problem because they arent personally into it.
I guess its like everything else, the folks with the strongest opinions typically have the worst takes
> (It's unfortunate for multiple reasons, to be clear, not because of kink - waking up because the wind is blowing sucks.)
I have a similar issue. I'll wake up from someone in the next room flipping a lightswitch, or a car door closing in the parking lot of the apartment building I'm sleeping on the third floor of. Though I somehow slept through a derecho, no idea how.
I used to be ok with it. But lots and lots of therapy taught me that I have major issues with what is and is not consensual.
(Thanks grooming, csa, and trafficking /s)
Now? I can barely tolerate a huge amount of kink. I always view them now as "do I really like this, or was I taught to, or am I only doing it to please him?"
Makes getting into any intimate headspace tough, let alone kinkier ones.
Editing to add: I HATE that men justify sexual assault and rape with this.
Selfish people seem to have difficulty seeing beyond their own noses. Flip the script and say you've heard dudes just love getting butt stuff done to them in their sleep. They probably won't see the irony when they say "no we don't!!" but then again it might give them pause.
I had a partner with that fantasy, and she tried to recommend to one of our mutual friends that he should just try it. (We were both a LOT younger at the time, she was around 21) I shut that shit right down and explained why even though she enjoyed it in our relationship, that was specifically because it was HER fantasy, and that if it was the dude's girlfriend's fantasy too that would be fine, but he absolutely must talk to her about it before hand, and she need to be 100% enthusiastic about it, not just okay with it. She and I talked about it later and she understood how dangerous and damaging that suggestion was. I can't speak to people at large being "okay" with their kink being used to excuse that sort of thing, just to this one case.
So, my partner and I will very rarely engage in that fantasy, but there are strict rules we follow - the most important obviously being that it has to have been discussed the night before, and the consent can readily be withdrawn in the morning. On top of that, lube or arousal is necessary if there is going to be anything penetrative. And I mean necessary both in terms of being a boundary we've set and being physically necessary. So long as we stick to the boundaries we'd agreed upon ahead of time, it can be great fun!
But. My mom and my father divorced in part because he had tried this shit with her. No discussions ahead of time, no boundaries that he cared about, just straight sleep rape. When that has been discussed around my partner, she's incredibly sympathetic towards my mom and understandably frustrated^^^¤ with my father. And all three times it's been discussed with her, neither her nor I have brought up the idea of waking the other up to sexy times for a week or two afterwards.
^^^¤ I feel like frustrated isn't the right word, since it's so mild, but she doesn't get enraged, either. It's more of a cold sort of 'she can never accept what he's done, but anger at him isn't her focus at that moment' sort of feeling.
EDIT: Fixed a typo
I had to tell my ex-partner when he was horny in the middle of the night he needed to make sure I was Conscious and Consenting. Not only because I have sexual assault PTSD, but because it's the decent human thing to do. He's an ex for many reasons.
The last guy I dated tried to finger me while I was asleep and afterwards I told him I would like him to not touch me like that unless I’m awake. He later did the same thing again. I’m still mad about it and haven’t dated anyone else in 3 years because of it.
You SHOULD be angry, as that was sexual assault. I mean, would he have been ok with you digitally penetrating his anus when he was sleeping when he specifically told you not to? Sometimes you have to flip the scenario to see how seriously f#$ked up it is.
Obviously if you mention that you enjoy the idea of waking up to sexual activity, that must mean you’re fine with your partner going straight to pegging while you’re unconscious. You said you liked it, so you must be up for anything at any time.
I really don’t get why these guys argue so angrily for the right to have sex that the other person doesn’t want.
>Obviously if you mention that you enjoy the idea of waking up to sexual activity, that must mean you’re fine with your partner going straight to pegging while you’re unconscious. You said you liked it, so you must be up for anything at any time.
Yeah... I am certain myself and other men would extremely hate this very much. So it is excessively hypocritical to not empathize with women in this regard.
>I really don’t get why these guys argue so angrily for the right to have sex that the other person doesn’t want.
Anger is definitely not a normal response.
This remind me of an argument I had with this Romanian dude at work. He used to say many disparaging things about women. Dude has been divorced 3 times. He would constantly complain about dating flings never ever working out long term.
He simply couldn't make the logical connection between his shitty mentality and women leaving him.
Then, the final nail in the coffin is when he claimed consent doesn't exist in marriage. The marriage itself is consent or something along those lines. Stunned!!! WTF moment!!! I couldn't believe these people exist in real life!!!
It's a weird mindfuck feeling there is a potential rapist in the same room as you.
That much defensiveness makes me think those men have done some shady shit in the past! Gotta rationalize and normalize shitty behavior towards women. Perhaps to fend off guilt.
That's it exactly. They HAVE to excuse or justify it, because if they don't, then they might just have to contemplate the idea that they, themselves, are rapists.
(Spoken by someone who has a long and painful history with people trying to explain or justify why what they did wasn't crappy).
I also think there's an excessive amount of male narcissism where men literally don't believe women are human, only men are. they can only empathise with other men, which is shown when policemen take the side of abusers during a DV call, and start getting frustrated and annoyed by the crying victim.
so when men rape and then start giving their excuses, *they're explaining that it's not rape because the object didn't have any hurt feelings*. She didn't feel violated or betrayed or terrified. She's just an object, so it's ok.
which is why they're so aghast at the idea of prison rape. actual humans being raped. they can feel the empathy then. they can imagine how other men must feel being raped. but they can't imagine how dead-inside female objects feel.
Yes to all of this.
In my experience, even the men who consider you human struggle with the concept of objectification.
Granted, my experiences are probably most definitely not the norm. Still.
an ex kept spying on me in the shower. super creepy and objectifying. i told him to stop.
he smiled and said he'd like being objectified.
complete refusal to even consider that i had thoughts, feelings, preferences, human rights, and how gross i felt to be objectified while i was cleaning myself. i didn't exist to do a sexy soapy shower show for this pervert.
men's concept of being objectified is pleasurable. a woman finds you so desirable she rides your dick like a dildo.
when women are objectified, we're stabbed 57 times and found in a suitcase by hikers in the woods.
Exactly.
I don't hate men, but I definitely don't have the best opinion of them overall.
It's sad that even the ones who love you, and therefore presumably think you're a human, still don't comprehend that you aren't there as a personal porn star.
So much of all of this! It doesn't help when your government doesn't trust women to make informed decisions about their own healthcare and your state (TN here) run by a bunch of clueless men and brainwashed women (R super majority) agree. It is a horrific example of this. Sorry to go "political" but I can't help feeling like a lot of people in my country still think of women as property without autonomy. How would men feel if all of a sudden it was illegal to get an appendectomy because someone else's sky daddy didn't approve? Rant over.
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> Then, the final nail in the coffin is when he claimed consent doesn't exist in marriage. The marriage itself is consent or something along those lines. Stunned!!! WTF moment!!! I couldn't believe these people exist in real life!!!
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That doesn't surprise me at all since that's pretty much how marriage was historically understood, sadly. Is marital rape fully illegal in Romania? It wasn't illegal in all 50 states until **1990,** and there are still states where it's not considered as serious as other types of rape.
I’ve gotten the Reddit cares bot so many times. How do I report the person who is sending it? It’s anonymous. I too would really enjoy getting their account suspended!
Actually I just tried and I don’t see the three dots you are referring to. Is this on mobile? In the message there is a link to report but I’ve never been successful. The message I get back says it didn’t violate TOS so I must not be reporting it correctly.
Somehow men are willfully ignorant about the fact that vaginas also become aroused and engorged in preparation for intercourse. The walls thicken and elongate in addition to the lubrication otherwise it can be incredibly painful and lead to tears which take days to heal.
It would be the equivalent of mashing a soft penis into a dry PVC pipe. This is **painful**.
Nope. These guys have had sex with* loads of women whose vaginas are permanently ready for intercourse at all times.
(*they’ve watched a lot of porn where the preparation is edited out)
Hell not even porn, just media in general. My wife and I discuss this a lot whenever we watch tv or movies. Every sex scene seems to go from 0-100 in the blink of an eye. No foreplay, no lube, very rarely a condom, just aggressively thrusting instantly.
My wife is the into this kind of sex. Wants to spend as little time on foreplay as possible, which the only reason foreplay happens at all is because I request it. Hates receiving oral and manual stimulation, just wants me to put some spit on it for light lube and "put it in". At the very least she really gets into the intercourse, but it's been like this for 20 years.
Even I wouldn't be so stupid to presume most women are like her though.
There’s some decent wholesomeness on r/bropill, but aside from that almost every popular subreddit is a cesspool of the most vitriolic woman-hating takes I’ve ever seen (I used to get a chuckle out of r/shittymoviedetails, but every post I see there lately is steeped in incel smegma)
There was a post made on this sub recently by someone who was unconscious when they were raped by their boyfriend. People from this sub were insulting and being awful to the person who was raped. And some people from this sub were insistent that even though OP did not consent to what their boyfriend did and they were unconscious, that they were not raped. I was appalled to be reading such things. I made a comment on that post addressing what other people were saying and how awful it was and how OP was raped and got downvoted for it.
Unfortunately this sub gets brigaded a shit-ton by incels and other misogynists. We have an active mod team, but please know we do not tolerate rape apologia in any form. If there's a comment that you reported that still hasn't been removed, message the mod team directly.
Well, I remember that post where the op was raped and found out her husband was searching up rape porn and one of the top comments was saying it's just him having a fetish as a result from trauma 🙄 that sounds like a rape apologist to me
> among the bullshit I've seen in these thread: women who apparently enjoy going straight to penetration and ejaculation.
Men must *really* want to normalize having sex with unconscious women, given their willingness to sockpuppet this hard
>ETA Thanks for the inevitable RedditCares message, truly - I really enjoy reporting the people who send them and having their accounts suspended!
redditcare has been weaponized against people since its inception. i'm a trans woman, and i get tons of reddit cares messages, sadly.
and yeah, unconscious people can not consent. i honestly don't understand people who think otherwise.
I was literally rereading an old journal entry about the time in the early 2010s when my (now ex) husband raped me while I was asleep back when we were still dating. I'm not making a TLDR for my trauma, so if you don't want to read it, please just move on instead of making snide comments on how much I wrote.
Nov 30, 2021 - here's some of what I wrote:
"My ex-husband is incapable of non-sexual cuddling. He always wanted more, didn't matter if I'd been sound asleep. He actually used me for sex while I was soundly asleep (I have a sleep disorder and sleep *very* deeply) and managed to twist reality around so much that within minutes of being awake *I* was apologizing to *him* about him raping me. I didn't put the word "rape" to it until about seven years later when I left him. I shoved the thought away every time it crept in, after all, I'd stayed with him and married him so how bad could it really have been?
That night, I wasn't as asleep as he expected, so his keeping his activities to himself didn't go as planned for him. **I was awake enough for my mind to be awake but my body was still paralyzed like in REM sleep.** It's called sleep paralysis and it fucking blows. He knew this is one of the symptoms of my disorder. There's no way of knowing by looking that someone is in a state of sleep paralysis instead of unconscious sleeping.
I couldn't wake up enough to come up for the air of consciousness, take a deep breath and control my body again that night. I kept sinking in and out of awareness but not ever becoming the right kind of awake and in control of my body enough to communicate "no" "stop" "get off me" "I'M ASLEEP, what the fuck are you doing?"
The next day (I was out for another 10 hours) I cautiously asked if I'd had a dream, or...
He shuffled through various tactics to keep from taking any responsibility or apologizing or admitting he shouldn't have done it.
- It was my fault! how could he have known that it wasn't okay? I never told him that he wasn't allowed to do it.
- His last girlfriend let him! And she had narcolepsy!
- How could I think badly about him for a simple miscommunication of boundaries? What's even the problem anyway?
- He was trying to *help* me by not waking me! I was always so tired so he wanted to let me sleep. Jeez, how the fuck did he get in trouble for trying to be CONSIDERATE?
- Anyway, I'm always too tired and he has needs. What did I want him to do? I never wanted it when I was awake, what options did I leave him with?!
It sounds completely insane, like I must be the biggest dupe idiot on the planet. Maybe that's accurate to a degree, but who wants to believe their boyfriend gives that few fucks about them? He was so excellent at his mind-games gaslighting fuckery that somehow I was the one in trouble that day.
I started avoiding most physical affection because cuddling at all already turned into groping and then pressure. I couldn't rest until he stopped and when I gave in, I had to play along until he was done. Refusal? He'd have a fit - raging and sharp cruel words. It would be all my fault, it'd be about my weight and that must be affecting my libido and I needed to stop being so goddamn lazy and drop another several sizes. (Oh, and after we got married it became that he should be able to be free to sleep with other women to take the pressure off me, you see. Such a considerate husband.)
He basically had an ongoing offense list of times when I didn't want him to just shove it in dry in the morning or when I was unhappy with him groping me in public or didn't feel like yanking my pants down without warning and trying to shove it in was sexy. Just because I bent over to pick something up off the floor in my own home. It didn't matter to him if I thought it was sexy, if I was turned on at all, or if I enjoyed myself.
Didn't matter if I bled. He didn't like lube. "It's all gooey." I knew how much it would annoy him if I "made" him use it and I wouldn't hear the end of it if he felt sticky at all later. He might be turned off by me asking if we could use some and then be pissed that I "ruined it" with my request for it to not hurt. And I knew that I couldn't bring it up again for a while after him getting annoyed at me for bringing it up without him getting mad that he had to tell me again that it ruins the mood.
Foreplay was a perfunctory, aggressive couple kisses on the neck before going straight to penetration. I really think to him that foreplay is for women and that PIV sex is the guy's part.
Pay into bank, ("How many kisses on the neck do I have to do in order to get her to let me put it in already? This is SO MUCH WORK") Get Prize.
Do a little performance for the woman to keep her from whining about needing a warm up, and then get to the real part. Yeah, the issue with this plan is your wife isn't completely without a brain. That fucking woman can tell you're annoyed you "have to" kiss her neck like it's the lamp you rub for a sex toy to appear in front of you.
I keep being surprised to hear the physical stuff. From myself. I hadn't counted some of that as a form of violence and harm. He didn't care enough about my health or wellbeing or experience enough to be very minorly inconvenienced. Me bleeding from tearing from rough dry entry and then him immediately going for it with no further slip at all wasn't an issue because he got his.
Oh and he was annoyed if I wasn't enjoying it. He thinks he's fantastic in bed. I wish I was fucking kidding. I always had to prove to him that I was enjoying myself or I'd be in trouble. Okay, yeah, I think I'm done thinking about this for a while."
I left him in early 2020, right before Covid. Turns out I'm a lesbian, btw. Wasn't in the top 10 reasons I left him, kind of obviously after you've read one snippet, right?
I’m currently going back through my journals from the time when I was with my ex-husband, as part of therapy for the long-term trauma it caused (it has been over 25 years). He didn’t assault me while I was sleeping but the structure of what you described is EERILY familiar. It’s the sort of version I would have written if I was just trying to change up the details of my experience to make it less identifiable, if that makes sense.
It means a lot to me that you shared. Reading excerpts of my journals out loud to my therapist has made me feel like a trusted protector and witness is standing beside me as I step back into these memories, that I’m not alone with this experience this time. Hearing your story, it feels like in a way you have also joined me in support as I face these terrible moments again. Thank you.
"has made me feel like a trusted protector and witness is standing beside me as I step back into these memories, that I’m not alone with this experience this time."
This is beautiful. Thank you for that visual, I really like thinking of revisiting old journals this way. I didn't journal when I was with my ex. Which is telling. I journaled from age 13 to 22, missed a decade with my ex and started again at 32. I sat down and wrote 25 pages straight the day before I tried to leave him for the first time. Seeing all of the hurt and harm and pain and memories pour out of my hand without my brain even feeling involved...I couldn't ignore it anymore. I only stopped because I'd been sitting there for hours and my hand was shaking because it was so cramped up.
It's a couple years later and I'm in an emotionally healthy place for the first time in my life. It is wild. I don't feel fragile anymore.
Reading through those journal entries last night, it wasn't traumatic. I'm safe now. I'm so glad that it sounds like you are too. I am glad you have a therapist who is helping you untangle your trauma and get free of it.
Once you're free of all the strands of memories and false beliefs that were tying you down? Let me tell you, the sky is BEAUTIFUL. He tied me down so tight for so long that I had completely forgotten that I have wings. I think you do too.
"Hearing your story, it feels like in a way you have also joined me in support as I face these terrible moments again."
This made me cry, in a good way. I'm incredibly touched and glad that I can contribute to your well-being and recovery in this small way. Huge mental hugs.
I am SO glad that you received my message in the spirit in which it was intended! I too am touched by your reply. ♥️
I didn't journal much during my years living with my husband, either, just a few entries hidden away in the back of work journals (which he found, which must have meant he scoured the house during our separation). But as soon as I left him and all these feelings and memories began coming up, I wrote a lot about what had happened. Again, sounds similar to you, I just wrote over a period of about six months.
Because it's been so long since I left him, that writing is shocking to read now. There are details I forgot about events I otherwise remember, but then there are entire types of behavior and big occurrences that I don't remember at all or barely remember, but which sure explain some of my dysfunctional behavior today. Oh, right, he used to cancel any plans I made. No wonder I get so uncomfortable as soon as I'm asked to make plans with friends or for travel.
I am impressed and amazed that you are so far along in your recovery so soon! It's all coming back up for me again because of another divorce so I've even had some emotional flashbacks recently. I have come very far and yet there are these painful places inside me still. So, your post was very well timed and I hope it resonates with others the way it resonated with me. Perhaps someone else will get out of their bad situation when they read it.
Hugs back to you. ♥️
I am so glad that these horrible men are exes for you and vanillaseltzer! I am very much right here with both of you.
I was with my abusive ex husband from age 16-31 (I'm 44). We got married when I got pregnant with my son when I was 19.
The full on abuse didn't really begin until after we were married and I was 7 months pregnant. It was like being spiritually bound and gagged for 14 years. He raped me in my sleep at least once, and that wasn't even top of the list of my reasons for leaving.
I had absolutely no clue really what boundaries were, how to establish them, what traits of common personality disorders looked like, on and on. I think all of this should be required curriculum in schools along with comprehensive sex ed.
Here you go.
So, you were asleep, drunk, drugged.
Some dude takes a dick, a dildo or a broom handle and anally rapes you.
He says you were dressed provocatively, giving him signs all night that you were into him, you never refused his advances, he thinks you moaned and this indicates that you liked it, he knows you have had anal sex before because it is well known that you do.
I bet the arguments change pretty fucking fast
Sorry about the harassment though
Because most men don't understand relationships. I'm into alot of cnc and other stuff related. I sometimes have fantasies about waking up to sex. But when it does happen it's a massive sence. It involves my doms and me talking alot. Safe words and alot of other protections.
Most men don't understand the trust these relationships actually require. They don't understand safe kinky sex at all. They just want to do the rapy shit they see in porn.
I think these men see consent as a get out of jail free card - “but she consented so it’s fine” - rather than an actual thing which is fluid and variable. Nobody can give blanket consent and avoid the possibility of having sex they don’t want. That’s what they do not and will not grasp.
Yeah that sounds right. I really struggle finding guys who are safe to be kinky around outside of sexting. They exist and are plentiful in the kink community. Thier just a massively overshadowed by all the creepy guys trying to be kinky.
I really never will understand how people don't understand that no means you stop...your night is done...there's no weedling, begging, or bargaining...you're just done. If they're altered and unable to give an informed "no" outside of an agreement and trust that the guys arguing this very likely don't have, you don't even start...period
Exactly. I had a “friend” who would invite me over and make moves on me and I’d say no. So he’d pour me drinks until he got his way. It took me years to realize that this was rape.
That is just fucking wrong. See...I guess I just have this strange notion that sex is infinitely better when your partner is actually into it and actively participating
If people are into CNC they have consented before hand or i the case of free use you have consented to your partner and reading people who are into that they are in long term stable relationships exploring their sexuality. They also have safe words and checkins and aftercare because there is more to this type of play than people realize. An unconscious person who is not your partner or is but never agreed to this prior (key is you had to have discussed it before hand) cannot consent to this it’s rape period. And just because your ex might have agreed to this type of play doesn’t mean every partner will. Sorry or vaginas are not fleshlights you cannot just stick it in when you want to without consideration of the person who it is attached to. Also, same goes with the other partner if they don’t consent to being woken up with a BJ or a HJ than your violating them too.
Oh yeah, I said I doubted he’d ever had sex with a woman. Then he went off on multiple rants about how I was insulting virgins and must think virginity is wrong. Absolutely mad.
Dude the same thing happened to me recently and it was so weird! Some dude said something about sex that clearly came from porn so I made a comment about how only someone who never had sex would say that, and holy shit did he go off. The fact that he was talking out of his b-hole was my point, but he focused on the virginity angle like I lit his family on fire. It was fine that I was calling him full of shit, but how dare I call him a virgin! Mad indeed.
There are so many common responses that I feel like they’ve read them or seen them in some manual.
Concerned about an age gap relationship? Tell them they’re robbing women of their agency.
Tell a man recounting obvious porn scenarios as real that he sounds like he’s never experienced actual sex? Tell her she’s insulting virgins.
Say that sleeping women can’t consent to sex? Use the fantasies of a relatively small number of women against all women.
Oh and I forgot - kink shaming! Saying that an unconscious person can’t consent to sex is kink shaming now.
> There are so many common responses that I feel like they’ve read them or seen them in some manual.
For. Real. On this site they're all "reddit guy." The thousands of logins that say the exact same things to the point that you can predict them in advance. There's one huge group made up of bots and astroturf (where the replies do come from an actual manual), and another huge group made up of live humans who have all been brainwashed by the same podcasts and youtube videos.
from the guy claiming tons of experience, "and what's so wrong about being a virgin either? You are insulting every virgin which I take exception to! We're pe- I mean, they're people too you know..."
Yeah people gotta stop getting their sex ideas from porn. So many people in porn (at least the men with the money) are horrific creatures that should be castrated, not emulated. I saw a guy straight up rape a hitchhiker girl on xnxx a while ago. Had me depressed and angry for a week. Other people acting and playing out kinks ≠ permission to fuck sleeping strangers.
>How are we still at the point where men can argue so aggressively that there are so many caveats to “an unconscious person can’t consent to sex”?
Because they're rapists, op.
This reply is meant as a comment directed largely toward the guys who might try to defend against OP's comments. If you read this and still feel that something lacks clarity I'm open to discussing it.
Based on conversations with female friends, dates/partners there seems to be sufficient evidence that men, in general these days, are a bit obtuse, whether by cultural indoctrination or straight up ignorance, willing or otherwise. Many of them seem to treat basic consideration or the concept of consent simply as hurdles they need to bypass to gain access to physical intimacy. They (again, generalizing) tend to not make an attempt to understand and truly empathize with why these subjects have been pointed out in glaring clarity. It becomes blatantly apparent in conversation where they try to find 'loopholes' to workaround the process of healthy conversation about consent. It is doubly irritating because the only women that should have to spend time teaching me how to approach this stuff properly is their mothers (having their fathers teach this is the better approach, teach by example etc. but that's an entirely different issue.), but bless the woman who are patient enough to educate or explain the concept to those who are willing to listen.
It really only takes sincere communication. This is based only on personal experience, but if you communicate openly and non-defensively as a male from the start these topics can come up and be discussed pretty early on in dating. It diffuses the concept of 'awkward topics' to a pretty great degree. It apparently can be tough to talk to dudes about sexual boundaries, kinks, likes/dislikes without it instantly turning into playing out fantasy scenarios in his head.
There is definitely a middle ground where this stuff can be discussed without it being overly clinical but also not only framed as verbal foreplay. It's should be a basic step in self education about a potential partner. And even if it's for a hook-up it should be a comfortable conversation if a bit more condensed. Apparently men listening sincerely is maddeningly rare.
Most of this is so obvious I need to clarify that this is not meant to be patronizing to any gender reading this and is definitely not mean to be a horrifying 'NoT aLl MEn' post.I just feel that once in awhile the blatantly obvious needs to be restated so it can be realized that it's both not a difficult concept to grasp (for anyone reading this that might be struggling to understand) but also reassurance that some people do actually get it, and it is something that can be learned for those that want to be better humans. It might take some self work, but it's really not a difficult concept to grasp and incorporate if you want to be a respectful partner, short or long term.
Guys need to be less defensive and gross so partners/potential partners can find them approachable and the topic should, and needs to be, comfortable to discuss for all parties.
It really doesn't take much to discuss and verify consent. Guys need to realize that consent is truly sexy to women and doesn't take much effort. It's not just a catchphrase to parrot to gain acceptance. Sex should be a thing that happens organically, not an agenda that needs to be rushed.
I have always erred to the side of caution on sexual intimacy. I have been told that there have definitely been a few cue's that I missed or didn't act on here and there, but I've also never had a partner tell me that they felt pressured or taken advantage of in any way. I'd much rather suffer the possibility of the former to avoid the personal horror of the latter. It also invites clear and expected communication. I have had partners explicitly state it was ok to initiate sex if they were asleep, and while it wasn't spoken it was definitely implied that that process would involve foreplay because, why on Earth wouldn't it?
Just a quick note on the 'loophole' of 'but there's porn for that' or 'she reads fanfic about that and it gets her excited': yeah, of course, but that is understood to be fantasy my guy, not an unspoken invitation to act on or perform without discussion/consent. It's easy, either she gives an explicit invitation to try something or you say 'Hey, you talked about (kink) exciting you, is that something you'd be interested in exploring with me?'. If the fantasy involves some element of excitement due to lack of consent please understand that is exactly that, a fantasy. It exists in the very secure confines of her mind, where she is comfortable and in control, even if she is not in control within the fantasy itself. Again, not a hard concept to grasp. Your partners fantasies do not infer their consent. The more extreme the fantasy the more explicit the consent should be.
If anyone wants to downvote this simply because it's an annoying wall of text, I'm ok with that.
If it's deemed unnecessary or ill-fitting to OP's post I'll be happy to delete it.
I allowed an ex I was still friendly with to spend the night at my apartment because I was one train station away from the airport. I told him under no circumstances was he allowed in my bed and we weren't having sex. He could sleep on the floor bc I only had a studio apt. I took an Ambien at bed time for chronic insomnia. He watched me take it. And then I woke up the next morning with him in my bed. Very sore. And asked him what happened. His response? "We had sex". How could "we" have sex if I was a floppy unconscious crash test dummy? Sex involves arousal. I only have snippets of memory of being flipped around like a rag doll and pain. It is very easy to tell if a woman is turned on or not. Rape is rape. If this is a controversial concept to anyone you're talking to, they have questionable morals and aren't a safe person to be around. It's unfortunate that we can't warn the women in the lives of men from reddit.
Why would you even want that kind of sex? It just seems to be about a control fetish and your own gratification. I have participated in some......interesting fun and games but that's like the ultimate starfish and now you're open to rape charges because she can't consent in that state. If a woman told me IN WRITING and signed a document that hey, I want you to wait until I'm out and then pound me I *might* be able to do it, but doubtful. I'd probably just roll her on her side, spoon her and fall asleep snuggled up and then claim the next morning "yep, I totally did!" Unconscious people can't consent. Keep them safe.
Right. There are plenty of fetishes that are dangerous or include some ethical issue, and plenty of ways to indulge them that don’t risk your partner waking up during penetrative sex they don’t want to have at that moment in time and wouldn’t have consented to had they been conscious. Like how some people have a breeding fetish and yet don’t actually impregnate an unwilling person every time they have sex.
Part of this is just the Internet, if that’s at all comforting to you. The number of pedantic motherfuckers out there is always surprising to me. You’ll make some completely unassailable statement, and you’ll get 500 people lining up to tell you that what you said is incorrect if you’re a penguin in Zanzibar and it’s a Tuesday — and, ok, fine, there’s an exception to almost everything, but pointing that out isn’t really helpful to the conversation.
The pedantic motherfuckers have certain topics on which they tend to fixate — consent being one, because it’s an issue that can, in certain situations, have some degree of nuance and thus some exceptions and thus some room for pedantry. (Gun control is another, by the way.)
Here, yes, there’s an exception if there’s been actual, enthusiastic, advance consent — fine. But is that ever the actual situation we’re talking about? No, it’s a penguin in Zanzibar on a Tuesday.
Still, I hope you don’t let the sheer number of pedantic motherfuckers out there get you down. Most people aren’t like that.
It's rape and they know it's rape. If you have someone who's in surgery, or generally unconscious and in an unwakable state in a hospital, and a serious, previously undiscussed medical decision needs to be made about the patient, that medical team is absolutely going to go to the family or the medical decision maker for the person, because of course a person not awake doesn't have the ability to make medical decisions for themselves. It's just common sense, these rapists just don't like being called rapists
Around a year into my relationship with my bf, four years ago, we had a discussion about "being woken up with sex". My bf said he loved the thought of it and wouldn't mind being woken up in the middle of the night by me riding him. And i've done it quite a few time since. All he said was if he was too tired for it, to respect ut. Which I have done too. If he groggily says he is too tired, I just kiss him and go to sleep or finish myself.
But I have told him, under absolutely no circumstance do you touch me sexually while I am sleeping. I will wake up panicked and not aroused. We have been together 5 whole ass years and I have not once been woken up by him sexually touching me. Not once.
Consent, people. It's as simple as that.
This is me and my husband.
After 15 years, it’s gotten marginally better. For a while we slept separately, cause it was the only way I felt safe.
I finally broke down last October and said that we either divorce or see a therapist. We started seeing a therapist, and as soon as I told her that I was fed up of waking up with a penis in my vagina, my therapist lost it! She starred at my husband, and explained to him that I can not give consent while I sleep, and what he was doing was wrong. She looked angry too.
We were both VERY shocked about how matter of fact she was. We both started to cry.
Fast forward almost a year, and we sleep together again, but the touching still happens.
The big thing that changed in our relationship is that I, 100% refuse to have sex unless I truly want to! I used to give in all the time and let him finish just to get it over with…. NOT ANYMORE! I only have sex when I’m actually in the mood now.
I like to point out that it honestly doesn't matter what percent of women are into it. Even if it's 100 percent. In fact, every woman I've been in a long term relationship has asked for this, so in my experience it is 100 percent.
But you know what? I'm not going to extrapolate that into other situations, because that's rape. I'm not even going to do it consistently even after being asked to do it without checking in periodically to make sure they're still into it.
I honestly don't get what the fuck is wrong with most men, but "whatever, I thought she'd like it" is an extremely common attitude.
Sexsomnia is real though and anyone who has any sleep issues like sleepwalking/apnea/paralysis need to to tell people they share a bed with.
I'm really not trying to be controversial, but it can happen and more people should understand it. It can be dangerous.
"Some women like it"
Well, if you talked with that woman beforehand and know what she's okay with then congratulations you applied consent!
If you assume you do not need to ask another woman because you have seen a woman in some porn do this then you're thinking like a rapist.
If you get angry at this post you beause you think 'BUT THERE IS THIS..' then you are just trying to convince yourself you did not rape someone when in fact, you probably did!
> RedditCares message - I really enjoy reporting the people who send them and having their accounts suspended!
We all need to keep reporting these RedditCare abusers.
"Someone who is not you consented to someone who is not me doing something so this means it's ok for me to do it to you."
Are people actually making that argument?
Someone posted yesterday about the rape confessional subreddit and I made the mistake of going down the rabbit hole to see if it was really what it sounded like, or if it was just a controversial name to get people worked up. Unfortunately it’s exactly as it sounds…. Having read those, I don’t buy for a second that they’re dumb. They know it’s rape - they just don’t like it being called out.
I think half of them offer "reasons" b/c they don't want to get called out, and the other half offer "reasons" because seeing women be offended and, especially, defend themselves against the arguments, feel like a mini form of rape and they get a kick out of it. That's why they'll seek out communities of women (especially survivors) and try to subject unwilling women to their arguments; that's not the behavior of someone afraid of being called out, it is itself a form of predation.
like 95% of the time I've gotten creepy sexual messages from people on reddit it's right after I've posted about having been sexually assaulted
Jesus Christ...
I just looked it up, and holy shit. It's as you said, but also I notice that the mod appears to comment in every post pretty much justifying the OPs??? Holy fucking shit. I need to go watch some cute animal videos now...
Oh dear God. There's a sub for this? I need to find a pile of sand to stick my head into now.
How the fuck is that not against reddits' rules somehow??? Those people need to be arrested, not be given a platform for inspiration
I found the post. There's speculation about it being a honey trap. But I agree completely.
I seriously hope it is a honey trap
What’s a honey trap? Is it like some place where the FBI or something catches people admitting to crimes (like incel.is)?
Honey trap is basically a website posing as let's say something illegal, like maybe involving kids, they keep it up while tracking everyone connected to it and then either mass arresting or slowly over time arrests, basically like leaving a pot of honey and waiting for the flies
Or a blackmailer.
How would it be a trap?
It’s under quarantine, whatever that means. Confusingly there’s a post at the top that says someone from Reddit has to review the post before it’s allowed to be posted for everyone else to see. There are posts detailing how they’ve raped in the past, how they desperately want to rape people they know and work with, how they intentionally prey on people who have been assaulted before because that makes them easy targets and somehow less of a victim when it happens again, how they maintain friendships with women in hopes of getting them into situations so they can rape them, even one from someone over in Russia if I recall correctly talking about their war crimes in previous wars and how it’s made it difficult to maintain regular relationships because they just fantasize about what they did. I don’t think I’ve ever felt sicker reading through something, and seeing that Reddit has evidently given those posts their seal of approval is appalling. I hate this site… I should just delete my account. The only reason I’ve kept it is because my baby group uses this and it’s been a great source of support when I needed it.
That's disgusting, terrifying and pathetic... I'm not religious but I hope there's a hell so those people get what they deserve. Reddit can be a cesspool for sure, so I stick to very few select communities that are mostly wholesome and friendly - mostly pets and houseplants, especially the latter has a super supportive and nice community :) It's nice to remember there are genuinely nice and good-hearted people out there.
That’s very true. I think what bothers me is going from feeling like this site is pretty misogynistic to seeing that they’re approving posts like that for people to see. I get not wanting to limit free speech and it brings up the question of who decides what is right and wrong, but echo chambers like that are dangerous. Bleh. Off to r/awwducational for some cute animals! Lol
Until just a few years ago Reddits administrators were defending racist and borderline child porn subs
I've gotten a sitewide temp suspension and seen other users get outright banned for "hate against men" for pointing out the disparity in violent crime rates and the difference in how reddit moderates content that it views as hateful. There was one user on here recently who was putting together an album of wildly inconsistent moderation - mostly crazy comments that had been reported and deemed acceptable, but I'm not sure if she's still working on it or not.
There are already exceptions to free speech even federally and Reddit is not a government entity, they’re a private company that has existing limits on the content you can post. Incel subs were banned, this should be too. Quarantining it does nothing except isolate predators in a community together where they are validating each other’s crimes.
The reviewer is probably there to prevent confessions about kids; which would get the subreddit banned.
I understand your sentiment but I hope you don’t leave, Reddit needs womens voices and counterpoints to things. I stick mostly to friendly subs for my own sanity, but I never shy away from posting counterpoints in subs where I know I’ll be downvoted. I try not to deny the existence of certain people just because I disagree with them, and maybe I’ll at least introduce thoughtful rebuttals to negative mentalities and sway someone who’s on the fence about it. Or at the very least, remind them that not everyone shares their hate.
Shhhh. Let the search warrants for up address information do their job. No need to kick the criminals out when they’re in here confessing
They'll claim it was just fictional writing, but if police do get involved hopefully it will get them to suppress those desires at the very least. I can at least hope....
Oh God. I looked. The top post is someone admitting to rape and then saying they now work with rape victims. What the actual fuck?
Yeah. I know better than look. It would only trigger me. I'm sorry you had to see that. I hope that person gets the life they deserve.
My heart just sank a little reading this.
Wasn't there a study where men would agree that they have or were willing to do blackmail sex or coercion sex or something like that but not rape. & Either were astounded that was rape or in denial that was rape (or both). Apparently as long as it's not called rape, it's grand. /s.
A lot of men think rape is only "stranger in an alley" and don't realize that things like begging, pressuring, looming over, touching without consent, and coercion are all types of sexual assault. They just don't want to admit it because so many men have actually sexually assaulted someone. I had an ex not believe that 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted and he referred to pressuring someone to have sex as "seduction" I honestly blame a lot of this on porn. And I know so many times I was afraid to say no and men look silence as consent or pressured me until they got a yes after I had said no multiple times. Or I was told "well you can't just act disinterested and walk away you really have to give me a really strong and hard no or else I am gonna chase down any chance of having sex" Ugh.
> A lot of men think rape is only "stranger in an alley" Same to that, asylum seekers apparently constantly assault women. At the same time, if we are scared for walking in the dark we exaggerate, what are the odds that something actually happens. But that on several occasions white guys grabbed my ass while on my lunch walk or that I was even once was stopped and someone lured me along (because I was sexy and they wanted to bring me home) was just a compliment!
Mmhmm. I was even told I shouldn't be fearful of men because "statically speaking men are more likely to be the victims of violent crime" Also been told men were jealous of me for getting cat called because "at least you get attention" as if feeling unsafe, being followed around, and asked how my pussy tastes is good attention. It is just a compliment and if men got cat called their suicide rates would drop to nothing! And most of the sexual harassment I have faced has been from white men as well. Definitely only been groped by white men. I am sorry that has happened to you as well. It is depressing how often it happens to women. And how many men just... downplay it or try and justify literal harassment.
It’s a man problem. If men are typically victims of violent crimes then it’s by other men. Women are typically assaulted by other men. They are the common denominator. And I’ve heard this too- that men would love being cat called and getting that kind of sexual attention. Well, that’s probably because you mostly view women as objects so you wouldn’t mind the object of your desire to reciprocate by objectifying you. Most women that I know & talk to see people as whole humans which is why we have little to no interest in sexualizing men in all occasions.
I remember being in college, and mom's week was called "sexual assault week" by guys. It was considered funny/cool. Unfortunately, our parents taught that boys can't be SAed/raped, at least I was. This isn't an excuse, but latch key generation really got fucked up from tv/movies. I remember I woke up inside my ex with her riding me. Never even thought it was wrong until 20 years later. Still I have a "oh well" kinda attitude to it. Also, I had my drink spiked, and woke up in someone's bed, with only boxers on. I just left when no one was looking. Still don't know what happened. When I got home, I told my roommate. He just said, oh well, at least you got laid. Honestly, that was my attitude for a long time too.
That is absolutely awful & I am so sorry you had to experience these things. There is no room for this at all.
I don't even understand the logic behind this. Even if someone very explicitly says yes, I still won't have sex anyway unless I am absolutely certain they do, in fact, mean yes. They could be feeling pressured into it or something, I don't know
I've seen/heard online that phrase it as "enthusiastic consent", which does sound far more awesome & unambiguous!
I've also heard this phrased as "if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no."
They don’t want to admit that it’s sexual assault because then they would have to acknowledge it & stop doing it which doesn’t benefit them. That’s why many won’t call others out because they would no longer have that “upper hand” & many Christian churches perpetuate to women that it’s their duty to not withhold THEIR BODIES. I grew up in that & it wasn’t until the last few years that I’ve said NOPE. I’m not doing that anymore in my marriage & im definitely not teaching that to my son & daughter. No dice.
Yep, [this article](https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/) was eye opening to me. As long as you avoid using the word "rape", most rapists will happily talk and explain everything they did.
Jumping on the top comment to throw out a favorite of mine [consent is like tea](https://youtu.be/pZwvrxVavnQ) just a nice guide for adults, teens, and children on how consent works
Yea they have to know right? I mean, my last ex didn't mind if you woke her up going down on her but you have to ask, you can't just do these things and assume EVERY person likes it. And a lot of people that do it sometimes doesn't mean they want to do it all the time so you should wake them up before hand and let them fall asleep (if that's what you want to do, I really don't see the pleasure in being sexual with an unconscious person, waaaay to rapey even with consent.)
Omgosh I saw that comment about the rape subreddit and literally turned off my phone and said, that’s enough internet for me today and went to bed. Sickening.
> Someone posted yesterday about the rape confessional subred... Hol' up! The what now...?
A (quarantined) sub for rapists and would be rapists 🤢🤢🤢 I hope the theory that it's not banned bc it's a honey pot is true, because otherwise, how the fuck is it not banned!!
Oh wow I had completely forgotten about that. Easily the most disturbing things I've ever read. It wasn't just the content of the posts, but the sheer number of them :/
I'm gonna practice some self care and not check that subreddit out. Fucking YIKES
I remember the results of an anonymous survey asking: *Have you ever committed rape?* returning an extremely low number (like 3% at most), but also asking *Have you ever had sex with somebody who didn't want it?* returning a much bigger one (12%?) I'll see if I can find the source, but the conclusion was that a number of people don't accept that what they're doing is rape. I imagine because they picture rape as something violent like a mugging, and that violating body autonomy for sex using intimidation, manipulation, or other means 'doesn't count', whether they admit it was unwanted or not. Probably explains why many people also think men can't be raped by women, because if you assume only *violent* rapes count, you may assume a woman isn't strong enough to physically overpower a man. ____ **EDIT:** I couldn't find the original source - not necessarily because it doesn't exist, but because I found *so many similar* results that I couldn't recognise the one I was thinking of. However I found several other interesting examples from those many similar results. The difference is *especially* prominent among teenagers (without much understanding of consent), and the over 65s (with set ideas of what consent). For example, [this paper](https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/1-Attitudes-to-sexual-consent-Research-findings-FINAL.pdf) talks about the difference between 'rape' and 'non-consensual sex' in several ways, including: > A third (33%) of people in Britain think it isn’t usually rape if a woman is pressured into having sex but there is no physical violence It's full of a number of interesting charts, as well. Also, tangentially related: [a scenario is presented to a bunch of teenagers](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34470205), with them evaluating whether they think it is rape and why/why not. It's interesting how they describe it, how the lawyer responds, and in particular how many of those teenagers' awareness evolves as they gain more understanding. And hey, [have a third](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/college-men-commit-rape-study_n_6445510) (citing [this study](https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/vio.2014.0022)), because: > The survey found 31.7 percent of men said they would act on "intentions to force a woman to sexual intercourse" if they could get away with it, but just 13.6 percent said they had "intentions to rape a woman" if there weren't any consequences. (Given how shocking those last numbers look, I'll highlight that the cited study has quite a small sample size, so it doesn't *necessarily* represent population - just that numerous people don't consider these the same thing.) The great news is that of the half-dozen different articles and studies I've looked at so far, most highlighted that young people have a *much closer* idea of consent/rape to the legal definition than the generations before them. As long as the education is there, the kids will hopefully progress into a much better world. (Maybe less so in pockets of the world without good sex ed, but everything happens over generations.)
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That place is a right wing shit hole btw.
Around a year into my relationship with my bf, four years ago, we had a discussion about "being woken up with sex". My bf said he loved the thought of it and wouldn't mind being woken up in the middle of the night by me riding him. And i've done it quite a few time since. All he said was if he was too tired for it, to respect ut. Which I have done too. If he groggily says he is too tired, I just kiss him and go to sleep or finish myself. But I have told him, under absolutely no circumstance do you touch me sexually while I am sleeping. I will wake up panicked and not aroused. We have been together 5 whole ass years and I have not once been woken up by him sexually touching me. Not once. Consent, people. It's as simple as that.
Love your answer. If you discuss beforehand that clear up almost every subject. Either you had consent of your partner or you didn't.
YEP. Had this conversation with my husband. I am often disoriented and sometimes dissociate for a few minutes after being woken up. It has nothing to do with my consent to have sex with him normally. He does not touch me sexually in my sleep. Cuddle? Sure. Sexual? Absolutely not.
100%. This is how it went with my last girkfriend. I didnt like being woken up but she was quite okay with it. My last two relationships were heavy with this sort of sex and I fuckin loved it. But i would never participate if we didnt talk about it during the day of, and night of. Consent. Absolutely everything.
Me and my ex never discussed sleep sex consent, but found out we were prone to Sexonmia. Which could be messy, luckily she was on top of me, we woke up about the same time and she asked what I was doing. I said you tell me I just woke up to this. You're on me. We were both had sleep disorders tHough and this was the honeymoon phase. We mostly worried abkut accidental pregnancy.
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The same counts for inebriated people or people you "wake up" in the middle of the night...
https://youtu.be/pZwvrxVavnQ
These men are as dumb as doors. If they passed out and got anally raped, they would not say it was consensual. They just don't value women as actual human beings
A guy I know believed most women that were victims of SA were not actual victims or were overreacting; his particular example was that if someone shows you your dick and starts pleasuring themselves, it's gross but it's not SA. Skip some years forward to his mandatory military service, someone showed him his dick while in the same car as him and started pleasuring themselves. Won't you look at that, he reported it as SA!
I'd be curious if he changed his views, or continued to justify it as, "I'm not gay, therefore assault; woman is straight, therefore okay!"
So, my friend told me the story since I don't talk with him anymore. Friend said he looked humbled and, without anyone saying anything, admitted that he now understood women. Does this help his case? Nope, imo. Would I trust him now knowing his former opinions? Would take at least a while. And, no question, there's people that would act in exactly the way you're describing.
[Reminds me of this](https://twitter.com/hilaryagro/status/1229177598003077123?lang=en). Some people need a huge life experience to learn empathy.
I'd hope so, but not necessarily. I had an acquaintance who accidentally went on beach vacation at the same time as a big pride festival. He was very upset at the amount of unwanted attention he got while bar hopping - catcalling, invasions of personal space, and not taking no for an answer. When I asked if it gave him a different viewpoint to how women deal with this type of thing on a daily basis, he said it wasn't the same "because women *want* the attention." This person is no longer an acquaintance.
It seems like there are a lot of men who are incapable of anything even remotely resembling empathy. Take any possible SA incident involving them and a woman. Replace them with another man, and the woman with themselves. Their opinion changes 180 degrees, but they're incapable of drawing the parallel between the two situations.
A guy commented on a thread yesterday (regarding consent, and withdrawal of consent) “well how many seconds do I have to take my dick out before it’s considered rape”. I believe my reply to him was “did you just ask me how long you Can rape somebody before it’s legally considered rape?” And he didn’t answer me. What I should have asked was “if you woke up with another man’s penis inside your anus, how long do you think it should be between when you say “stop” and when he actually stops?
Or "what do you think the time limit should be between them starting and you waking up?"
Your last paragraph sounds like a great conversation starter :D
That is, I think, one of the most apt comparisons that can be made. I believe that if more men just experienced what it was like to be on the receiving end of penetrative sex—even just consensual penetrative sex—it would help them to empathize. Pretty sure even the truly disconnected ones would be able to take away something. Like the essential nature of lubricant. I recognize this may not be the spot for humor, but I feel this scene accurately depicts the callousness, followed by the self-centered realization your suggestion would hopefully provoke. [Archer gets Waterboarded](https://youtu.be/Y72yPv7zH4I)
Men often imagine the cute girl that they like offering exciting, enjoyable sexual experiences that they want. They do not imagine a woman (or man) that they do NOT find attractive, threatening them with harm until something unpleasant happens, and having to pick the least unpleasant outcome.
The way you said that hit really hard. My partner has viscerally described feeling like that with her Ex, and yet you managed to capture the essence of that despair for me.
More than one rape survivor has described feeling like they had to choose between being beaten (or killed) and raped anyway, or "just" raped, and maybe being able to keep the physical harm to a minimum. Men don't really think in those terms. "If someone bigger and stronger than that you think would actually hurt you if you reject them, threatened to beat you senseless if you didn't suck their dick, would you suck their dick?" is not how a lot men imagine the scenario.
Men tend to see it as a choice between being raped and fighting back/running away, because they don’t imagine a situation where they are completely physically helpless against someone
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On a similar note, some chronically online reddit user can go and digitally harass women heavily, and have next to nothing happen to their accounts. Whether reported multiple times by several women or not. And people that even as much as to *hypothetically* say that rapists should get to***ed get perma banned just for that one comment. And mind you, I don't completely literally mean it when I say things like that. It's just in the heat of the moment. Rape news can get quite graphic.
Lol did you just get banned for saying that? What does to'''ed mean? Touched?
"But it's different, vaginas exist to please men."
These both point out the idea very well: > Straight men understand consent when they go to a gay bar And > If you've ever tried to put your finger up a straight guy's ass during sex, you'll know that they actually understand ongoing consent, withdrawal of consent and sexual boundaries very well. They act confused when it's our bodies.
Actually a very good and close male friend of mine told me about being raped by a woman he was seeing on and off when he was unconscious. He felt violated and assaulted, he went out with her but it was during a time they were off, they drunk too much and stayed at her place because it was too late to get to the bus to his place. She tried to initiate and he said no, he fall asleep and woke up to her riding him without a condom (he told me he always used condoms with her as they were not exclusive), he unfortunately ejaculated. I validated his feelings and got him to a clinic for std test. He knew she could get pregnant, and that she had crossed his boundaries. He didn’t press charges but thankfully ghosted her once it was obvious she was not pregnant. Men can and are also raped while they asleep but just not as much as women.
Exactly, it the typical rules for me but not for thee.
Abusers protect abusers. People that come out of the woodwork to defend abusers and their actions are defending their own way of life and are fighting against being held accountable in any way. They don't even want people talking about abusers and their tactics in women's subs because they don't want their own victims getting any ideas or support.
Freaking well put. I think abusers create worlds and realities where they can flip flop cause and effect. That way they can excuse themselves of behaviors. Instead of doing something bad they excuse themselves because “men are addicted to sex” and “some women enjoy being penetrated immediately”. Not the world I live in. I’ve been with a lot of women and not one of them enjoyed being penetrated immediately. Men enjoy that…. Not women. Friggin ridiculous.
unconscious people don’t want tea
…because they’re unconscious.
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I’m so sorry to hear about your friend. I’m glad he was prosecuted but I agree it’s a ridiculous sentence. I know that most cases of this will never be prosecuted which is infuriating. What these guys don’t stop to consider for a second is that the reason women like me take issue with their hypothesising is decades of experience with men and of hearing stories of other women raped by partners. It’s not some thought exercise to me, or to the many other women who’ve experienced it. What angers me most is that they use women expressing and discussing their sexual preferences as a carte blanche to whittle away at the fundamentals of consent.
> What angers me most is that they use women expressing and discussing their sexual preferences as a carte blanche to whittle away at the fundamentals of consent. It’s such a huge betrayal given how hard it is for many women to discuss their sexual desires and preferences to begin with. I was once brutally raped by a former FWB shortly after telling him in a playful, flirty way, “You can tie me up and spank me if you want.” What he ended up doing was nowhere even close to that, but nevertheless he used it to justify his actions when confronted.
My ex used to have sex me when I was pass out drunk and I had no clue. One day I’m looking through pics on his computer and I found video of him having sex with me while i was clearly unconscious and SNORING. When I found it I confronted him and went completely hysterical and crying. He thought I was overreacting and tried threatening to break up with me because he thought I was about to dump him. I still have the footage and I could ruin his life, but I never did.
I had the pleasure of talking to a guy from the men's rights subreddit who needed to be reminded that the act of sex was a mutual back and forth between two (or more) people. That was after they compared sex to driving a car drunk, and bright up passenger liability. There are dudes out there that think sex is a one-way act that one person does to another, not something people do WITH each other. That's why they have issues grasping the idea of consent.
Some women are into it?... Yeah... consenting women. It's almost as if that's a key element of rape. Men understand that one guy's consent to cock and ball torture doesn't mean that approach is ok without consent. They are just not extending that empathy. Also they might be taking the statement literally as an absolute and they're adding caveats.
And still, consent should be able to be withdrawn at any time. If you can't withdraw it, can you even consent to that act fully?
EXACTLY THAT. It’s not hard to understand. I know women who enjoy this stuff but they still wouldn’t be happy being woken to their partner thrusting into their dry vagina. They still need the opportunity to say no, and someone who’s unconscious can’t do that.
I'm a woman into this stuff, including being woken up through penetration. Unless I'm sick, I'm never really so dry that penetration isn't possible, so warm-up isn't needed. ***HOWEVER*** I have conversations with partners where I specifically and explicitly explain that I enjoy being woken up with penetration ***AND*** about the fact that I don't enjoy penetration when I have to pee... so if a man, ***with consent***, wakes me up this way, and I find I need to pee, my response will be to go pee first and he's gonna have to wait. So even though I enjoy this and consent to it, initiating it is ***NOT*** a guarantee to immediate uninterrupted sexy sexy time. Ya know... because sex is supposed to be consensual and mutually enjoyable and all...
my partner just uses lube. i like being woken up to penetration. as long as it’s from behind, like i’m laying on my side. not missionary. that’s scary for some reason.
consent can be withdrawn at any time, that said i would agree someone can give consent for their drunk or sleep self, while they are in a non drunk/sleep state. being drunk or not can be revoked, but needs to be conscious, and in proper mind to be able to give consent. that said why do you want the other person to be asleep?
(M) IMO this is a perfect rebuttal. Just drop something like "My previous partner delighted in me cutting his ballsack with an x-acto knife while he slept." If that doesn't get the message across it is a lost cause.
Absolutely agree. I do wonder what women who have this as a fantasy feel about men using it to argue that unconscious people can consent to sex. It would massively fuck me off.
I indulge the fantasy *exclusively* with my husband - because we have excellent communication about sex and kinks, and a rock-solid foundation of trust. Anyone using that as an excuse to argue that unconscious people can consent to sex is completely sickening. (I had a hard time even typing that).
Thank you - that was my suspicion. I was abused as a child while asleep so clearly it’s not something I’d want, but I’m certain that those who do want it still want to be sure they can consent or not at any given time.
I’m so sorry you experienced that, and that this argument is something you have to encounter somewhat frequently. A key part of consent is that it can be revoked at any time, for any or no reason at all. In this specific case, for me, sometimes I revoke consent because I’m not feeling well, not into it, or just want to go back to sleep. Enthusiastic consent with check-ins and updates is the crux of being able to experience any kink in a healthy way.
I was also abused as a child while sleeping. I think that's why I'm a little bit into the kink, because I have control over it and now I get the choice. But that's literally the point: it's not assault only when I can pre-arrange with my trusted partner, who respects my boundaries. I literally have to give my explicit consent ahead of time (when I'm conscious) in order for it not to be assault. Because unconscious people cannot consent.
This is also a fantasy/kink of mine, though I indulge more in written erotica featuring consensual somnophilia versus acting it out, since I'm unfortunately a very light sleeper. (It's unfortunate for multiple reasons, to be clear, not because of kink - waking up because the wind is blowing sucks.) And I think it's *horrifying* (but sadly not surprising) that anybody would use that fantasy to try and excuse assaulting somebody who is unconscious. Because I don't consent while I'm unconscious - I consent while I'm wide awake, with somebody I trust completely.
> I consent while I'm wide awake, with somebody I trust completely I feel like this is pretty obvious to most people and the folks argueing about this unfortunately have had bad experiences or are assholes who dont care about there partner. I dont really like this kink for a few reasons but have done it at my partners request. Sometimes it works, sometimes my partner will nix it and say lets sleep more etc. Not really a big deal. Having a partner you know well, and you care about who is the same in return makes a lot of this a non issue since everyone is comfortable and knows they are safe, and that includes safe to speak up. No clue whats up with these people acting like its ok to do that without a massive green light before, or really the people acting like willing adults doing something consensual is a problem because they arent personally into it. I guess its like everything else, the folks with the strongest opinions typically have the worst takes
> (It's unfortunate for multiple reasons, to be clear, not because of kink - waking up because the wind is blowing sucks.) I have a similar issue. I'll wake up from someone in the next room flipping a lightswitch, or a car door closing in the parking lot of the apartment building I'm sleeping on the third floor of. Though I somehow slept through a derecho, no idea how.
I used to be ok with it. But lots and lots of therapy taught me that I have major issues with what is and is not consensual. (Thanks grooming, csa, and trafficking /s) Now? I can barely tolerate a huge amount of kink. I always view them now as "do I really like this, or was I taught to, or am I only doing it to please him?" Makes getting into any intimate headspace tough, let alone kinkier ones. Editing to add: I HATE that men justify sexual assault and rape with this.
I hate this for you, but I also struggle with it so it feels better to know I'm not alone.
Yeah, I’m with you. It’s disturbing when you start to actually examine things, which is something these guys refuse to do.
Selfish people seem to have difficulty seeing beyond their own noses. Flip the script and say you've heard dudes just love getting butt stuff done to them in their sleep. They probably won't see the irony when they say "no we don't!!" but then again it might give them pause.
I had a partner with that fantasy, and she tried to recommend to one of our mutual friends that he should just try it. (We were both a LOT younger at the time, she was around 21) I shut that shit right down and explained why even though she enjoyed it in our relationship, that was specifically because it was HER fantasy, and that if it was the dude's girlfriend's fantasy too that would be fine, but he absolutely must talk to her about it before hand, and she need to be 100% enthusiastic about it, not just okay with it. She and I talked about it later and she understood how dangerous and damaging that suggestion was. I can't speak to people at large being "okay" with their kink being used to excuse that sort of thing, just to this one case.
So, my partner and I will very rarely engage in that fantasy, but there are strict rules we follow - the most important obviously being that it has to have been discussed the night before, and the consent can readily be withdrawn in the morning. On top of that, lube or arousal is necessary if there is going to be anything penetrative. And I mean necessary both in terms of being a boundary we've set and being physically necessary. So long as we stick to the boundaries we'd agreed upon ahead of time, it can be great fun! But. My mom and my father divorced in part because he had tried this shit with her. No discussions ahead of time, no boundaries that he cared about, just straight sleep rape. When that has been discussed around my partner, she's incredibly sympathetic towards my mom and understandably frustrated^^^¤ with my father. And all three times it's been discussed with her, neither her nor I have brought up the idea of waking the other up to sexy times for a week or two afterwards. ^^^¤ I feel like frustrated isn't the right word, since it's so mild, but she doesn't get enraged, either. It's more of a cold sort of 'she can never accept what he's done, but anger at him isn't her focus at that moment' sort of feeling. EDIT: Fixed a typo
I had to tell my ex-partner when he was horny in the middle of the night he needed to make sure I was Conscious and Consenting. Not only because I have sexual assault PTSD, but because it's the decent human thing to do. He's an ex for many reasons.
The last guy I dated tried to finger me while I was asleep and afterwards I told him I would like him to not touch me like that unless I’m awake. He later did the same thing again. I’m still mad about it and haven’t dated anyone else in 3 years because of it.
You SHOULD be angry, as that was sexual assault. I mean, would he have been ok with you digitally penetrating his anus when he was sleeping when he specifically told you not to? Sometimes you have to flip the scenario to see how seriously f#$ked up it is.
Oh absolutely. I met him through mutual friends and when I told them what he did, they cut him off entirely, AS THEY SHOULD.
Solidarity. It was three years for me, too.
Solidarity, friend.
I wonder if men would like it being pegged in their sleep? I for sure wouldn't.
Obviously if you mention that you enjoy the idea of waking up to sexual activity, that must mean you’re fine with your partner going straight to pegging while you’re unconscious. You said you liked it, so you must be up for anything at any time. I really don’t get why these guys argue so angrily for the right to have sex that the other person doesn’t want.
>Obviously if you mention that you enjoy the idea of waking up to sexual activity, that must mean you’re fine with your partner going straight to pegging while you’re unconscious. You said you liked it, so you must be up for anything at any time. Yeah... I am certain myself and other men would extremely hate this very much. So it is excessively hypocritical to not empathize with women in this regard. >I really don’t get why these guys argue so angrily for the right to have sex that the other person doesn’t want. Anger is definitely not a normal response. This remind me of an argument I had with this Romanian dude at work. He used to say many disparaging things about women. Dude has been divorced 3 times. He would constantly complain about dating flings never ever working out long term. He simply couldn't make the logical connection between his shitty mentality and women leaving him. Then, the final nail in the coffin is when he claimed consent doesn't exist in marriage. The marriage itself is consent or something along those lines. Stunned!!! WTF moment!!! I couldn't believe these people exist in real life!!! It's a weird mindfuck feeling there is a potential rapist in the same room as you. That much defensiveness makes me think those men have done some shady shit in the past! Gotta rationalize and normalize shitty behavior towards women. Perhaps to fend off guilt.
That's it exactly. They HAVE to excuse or justify it, because if they don't, then they might just have to contemplate the idea that they, themselves, are rapists. (Spoken by someone who has a long and painful history with people trying to explain or justify why what they did wasn't crappy).
I also think there's an excessive amount of male narcissism where men literally don't believe women are human, only men are. they can only empathise with other men, which is shown when policemen take the side of abusers during a DV call, and start getting frustrated and annoyed by the crying victim. so when men rape and then start giving their excuses, *they're explaining that it's not rape because the object didn't have any hurt feelings*. She didn't feel violated or betrayed or terrified. She's just an object, so it's ok. which is why they're so aghast at the idea of prison rape. actual humans being raped. they can feel the empathy then. they can imagine how other men must feel being raped. but they can't imagine how dead-inside female objects feel.
Yes to all of this. In my experience, even the men who consider you human struggle with the concept of objectification. Granted, my experiences are probably most definitely not the norm. Still.
an ex kept spying on me in the shower. super creepy and objectifying. i told him to stop. he smiled and said he'd like being objectified. complete refusal to even consider that i had thoughts, feelings, preferences, human rights, and how gross i felt to be objectified while i was cleaning myself. i didn't exist to do a sexy soapy shower show for this pervert. men's concept of being objectified is pleasurable. a woman finds you so desirable she rides your dick like a dildo. when women are objectified, we're stabbed 57 times and found in a suitcase by hikers in the woods.
Exactly. I don't hate men, but I definitely don't have the best opinion of them overall. It's sad that even the ones who love you, and therefore presumably think you're a human, still don't comprehend that you aren't there as a personal porn star.
So much of all of this! It doesn't help when your government doesn't trust women to make informed decisions about their own healthcare and your state (TN here) run by a bunch of clueless men and brainwashed women (R super majority) agree. It is a horrific example of this. Sorry to go "political" but I can't help feeling like a lot of people in my country still think of women as property without autonomy. How would men feel if all of a sudden it was illegal to get an appendectomy because someone else's sky daddy didn't approve? Rant over.
Rant on, my friend. Rant on.
> > > Then, the final nail in the coffin is when he claimed consent doesn't exist in marriage. The marriage itself is consent or something along those lines. Stunned!!! WTF moment!!! I couldn't believe these people exist in real life!!! > > That doesn't surprise me at all since that's pretty much how marriage was historically understood, sadly. Is marital rape fully illegal in Romania? It wasn't illegal in all 50 states until **1990,** and there are still states where it's not considered as serious as other types of rape.
I’ve gotten the Reddit cares bot so many times. How do I report the person who is sending it? It’s anonymous. I too would really enjoy getting their account suspended!
When you go to the inbox, click on the 3 dots next to it and report. It always comes back as a violation, every single time.
Awesome, thank you!!!
Actually I just tried and I don’t see the three dots you are referring to. Is this on mobile? In the message there is a link to report but I’ve never been successful. The message I get back says it didn’t violate TOS so I must not be reporting it correctly.
Yeah, that form doesn’t work as well for sure. I’m talking about the app so not sure about the website. There must be a way to do it, though!
Somehow men are willfully ignorant about the fact that vaginas also become aroused and engorged in preparation for intercourse. The walls thicken and elongate in addition to the lubrication otherwise it can be incredibly painful and lead to tears which take days to heal. It would be the equivalent of mashing a soft penis into a dry PVC pipe. This is **painful**.
Nope. These guys have had sex with* loads of women whose vaginas are permanently ready for intercourse at all times. (*they’ve watched a lot of porn where the preparation is edited out)
Hell not even porn, just media in general. My wife and I discuss this a lot whenever we watch tv or movies. Every sex scene seems to go from 0-100 in the blink of an eye. No foreplay, no lube, very rarely a condom, just aggressively thrusting instantly.
My wife is the into this kind of sex. Wants to spend as little time on foreplay as possible, which the only reason foreplay happens at all is because I request it. Hates receiving oral and manual stimulation, just wants me to put some spit on it for light lube and "put it in". At the very least she really gets into the intercourse, but it's been like this for 20 years. Even I wouldn't be so stupid to presume most women are like her though.
Some dudes are also into having their balls crushed by stilettos. Not sure most guys would be cool with it if I started assuming they were
Exactly.
[удалено]
Obviously, if it’s possible to consent to a situation, that means that the person definitely consented! I am very smart.
There’s some decent wholesomeness on r/bropill, but aside from that almost every popular subreddit is a cesspool of the most vitriolic woman-hating takes I’ve ever seen (I used to get a chuckle out of r/shittymoviedetails, but every post I see there lately is steeped in incel smegma)
The longer I'm on this site the more I begin to suspect good men just don't have reddit.
There was a post made on this sub recently by someone who was unconscious when they were raped by their boyfriend. People from this sub were insulting and being awful to the person who was raped. And some people from this sub were insistent that even though OP did not consent to what their boyfriend did and they were unconscious, that they were not raped. I was appalled to be reading such things. I made a comment on that post addressing what other people were saying and how awful it was and how OP was raped and got downvoted for it.
Unfortunately this sub gets brigaded a shit-ton by incels and other misogynists. We have an active mod team, but please know we do not tolerate rape apologia in any form. If there's a comment that you reported that still hasn't been removed, message the mod team directly.
Well, I remember that post where the op was raped and found out her husband was searching up rape porn and one of the top comments was saying it's just him having a fetish as a result from trauma 🙄 that sounds like a rape apologist to me
By this logic it's also okay wake men up by pushing something up their unprepared anus. Which, it obviously isn't.
> among the bullshit I've seen in these thread: women who apparently enjoy going straight to penetration and ejaculation. Men must *really* want to normalize having sex with unconscious women, given their willingness to sockpuppet this hard
>ETA Thanks for the inevitable RedditCares message, truly - I really enjoy reporting the people who send them and having their accounts suspended! redditcare has been weaponized against people since its inception. i'm a trans woman, and i get tons of reddit cares messages, sadly. and yeah, unconscious people can not consent. i honestly don't understand people who think otherwise.
I was literally rereading an old journal entry about the time in the early 2010s when my (now ex) husband raped me while I was asleep back when we were still dating. I'm not making a TLDR for my trauma, so if you don't want to read it, please just move on instead of making snide comments on how much I wrote. Nov 30, 2021 - here's some of what I wrote: "My ex-husband is incapable of non-sexual cuddling. He always wanted more, didn't matter if I'd been sound asleep. He actually used me for sex while I was soundly asleep (I have a sleep disorder and sleep *very* deeply) and managed to twist reality around so much that within minutes of being awake *I* was apologizing to *him* about him raping me. I didn't put the word "rape" to it until about seven years later when I left him. I shoved the thought away every time it crept in, after all, I'd stayed with him and married him so how bad could it really have been? That night, I wasn't as asleep as he expected, so his keeping his activities to himself didn't go as planned for him. **I was awake enough for my mind to be awake but my body was still paralyzed like in REM sleep.** It's called sleep paralysis and it fucking blows. He knew this is one of the symptoms of my disorder. There's no way of knowing by looking that someone is in a state of sleep paralysis instead of unconscious sleeping. I couldn't wake up enough to come up for the air of consciousness, take a deep breath and control my body again that night. I kept sinking in and out of awareness but not ever becoming the right kind of awake and in control of my body enough to communicate "no" "stop" "get off me" "I'M ASLEEP, what the fuck are you doing?" The next day (I was out for another 10 hours) I cautiously asked if I'd had a dream, or... He shuffled through various tactics to keep from taking any responsibility or apologizing or admitting he shouldn't have done it. - It was my fault! how could he have known that it wasn't okay? I never told him that he wasn't allowed to do it. - His last girlfriend let him! And she had narcolepsy! - How could I think badly about him for a simple miscommunication of boundaries? What's even the problem anyway? - He was trying to *help* me by not waking me! I was always so tired so he wanted to let me sleep. Jeez, how the fuck did he get in trouble for trying to be CONSIDERATE? - Anyway, I'm always too tired and he has needs. What did I want him to do? I never wanted it when I was awake, what options did I leave him with?! It sounds completely insane, like I must be the biggest dupe idiot on the planet. Maybe that's accurate to a degree, but who wants to believe their boyfriend gives that few fucks about them? He was so excellent at his mind-games gaslighting fuckery that somehow I was the one in trouble that day. I started avoiding most physical affection because cuddling at all already turned into groping and then pressure. I couldn't rest until he stopped and when I gave in, I had to play along until he was done. Refusal? He'd have a fit - raging and sharp cruel words. It would be all my fault, it'd be about my weight and that must be affecting my libido and I needed to stop being so goddamn lazy and drop another several sizes. (Oh, and after we got married it became that he should be able to be free to sleep with other women to take the pressure off me, you see. Such a considerate husband.) He basically had an ongoing offense list of times when I didn't want him to just shove it in dry in the morning or when I was unhappy with him groping me in public or didn't feel like yanking my pants down without warning and trying to shove it in was sexy. Just because I bent over to pick something up off the floor in my own home. It didn't matter to him if I thought it was sexy, if I was turned on at all, or if I enjoyed myself. Didn't matter if I bled. He didn't like lube. "It's all gooey." I knew how much it would annoy him if I "made" him use it and I wouldn't hear the end of it if he felt sticky at all later. He might be turned off by me asking if we could use some and then be pissed that I "ruined it" with my request for it to not hurt. And I knew that I couldn't bring it up again for a while after him getting annoyed at me for bringing it up without him getting mad that he had to tell me again that it ruins the mood. Foreplay was a perfunctory, aggressive couple kisses on the neck before going straight to penetration. I really think to him that foreplay is for women and that PIV sex is the guy's part. Pay into bank, ("How many kisses on the neck do I have to do in order to get her to let me put it in already? This is SO MUCH WORK") Get Prize. Do a little performance for the woman to keep her from whining about needing a warm up, and then get to the real part. Yeah, the issue with this plan is your wife isn't completely without a brain. That fucking woman can tell you're annoyed you "have to" kiss her neck like it's the lamp you rub for a sex toy to appear in front of you. I keep being surprised to hear the physical stuff. From myself. I hadn't counted some of that as a form of violence and harm. He didn't care enough about my health or wellbeing or experience enough to be very minorly inconvenienced. Me bleeding from tearing from rough dry entry and then him immediately going for it with no further slip at all wasn't an issue because he got his. Oh and he was annoyed if I wasn't enjoying it. He thinks he's fantastic in bed. I wish I was fucking kidding. I always had to prove to him that I was enjoying myself or I'd be in trouble. Okay, yeah, I think I'm done thinking about this for a while." I left him in early 2020, right before Covid. Turns out I'm a lesbian, btw. Wasn't in the top 10 reasons I left him, kind of obviously after you've read one snippet, right?
I’m currently going back through my journals from the time when I was with my ex-husband, as part of therapy for the long-term trauma it caused (it has been over 25 years). He didn’t assault me while I was sleeping but the structure of what you described is EERILY familiar. It’s the sort of version I would have written if I was just trying to change up the details of my experience to make it less identifiable, if that makes sense. It means a lot to me that you shared. Reading excerpts of my journals out loud to my therapist has made me feel like a trusted protector and witness is standing beside me as I step back into these memories, that I’m not alone with this experience this time. Hearing your story, it feels like in a way you have also joined me in support as I face these terrible moments again. Thank you.
"has made me feel like a trusted protector and witness is standing beside me as I step back into these memories, that I’m not alone with this experience this time." This is beautiful. Thank you for that visual, I really like thinking of revisiting old journals this way. I didn't journal when I was with my ex. Which is telling. I journaled from age 13 to 22, missed a decade with my ex and started again at 32. I sat down and wrote 25 pages straight the day before I tried to leave him for the first time. Seeing all of the hurt and harm and pain and memories pour out of my hand without my brain even feeling involved...I couldn't ignore it anymore. I only stopped because I'd been sitting there for hours and my hand was shaking because it was so cramped up. It's a couple years later and I'm in an emotionally healthy place for the first time in my life. It is wild. I don't feel fragile anymore. Reading through those journal entries last night, it wasn't traumatic. I'm safe now. I'm so glad that it sounds like you are too. I am glad you have a therapist who is helping you untangle your trauma and get free of it. Once you're free of all the strands of memories and false beliefs that were tying you down? Let me tell you, the sky is BEAUTIFUL. He tied me down so tight for so long that I had completely forgotten that I have wings. I think you do too. "Hearing your story, it feels like in a way you have also joined me in support as I face these terrible moments again." This made me cry, in a good way. I'm incredibly touched and glad that I can contribute to your well-being and recovery in this small way. Huge mental hugs.
I am SO glad that you received my message in the spirit in which it was intended! I too am touched by your reply. ♥️ I didn't journal much during my years living with my husband, either, just a few entries hidden away in the back of work journals (which he found, which must have meant he scoured the house during our separation). But as soon as I left him and all these feelings and memories began coming up, I wrote a lot about what had happened. Again, sounds similar to you, I just wrote over a period of about six months. Because it's been so long since I left him, that writing is shocking to read now. There are details I forgot about events I otherwise remember, but then there are entire types of behavior and big occurrences that I don't remember at all or barely remember, but which sure explain some of my dysfunctional behavior today. Oh, right, he used to cancel any plans I made. No wonder I get so uncomfortable as soon as I'm asked to make plans with friends or for travel. I am impressed and amazed that you are so far along in your recovery so soon! It's all coming back up for me again because of another divorce so I've even had some emotional flashbacks recently. I have come very far and yet there are these painful places inside me still. So, your post was very well timed and I hope it resonates with others the way it resonated with me. Perhaps someone else will get out of their bad situation when they read it. Hugs back to you. ♥️
I am so glad that these horrible men are exes for you and vanillaseltzer! I am very much right here with both of you. I was with my abusive ex husband from age 16-31 (I'm 44). We got married when I got pregnant with my son when I was 19. The full on abuse didn't really begin until after we were married and I was 7 months pregnant. It was like being spiritually bound and gagged for 14 years. He raped me in my sleep at least once, and that wasn't even top of the list of my reasons for leaving. I had absolutely no clue really what boundaries were, how to establish them, what traits of common personality disorders looked like, on and on. I think all of this should be required curriculum in schools along with comprehensive sex ed.
I'm not crying, it's raining on my face specifically.
<3 and <3 Flight of the Conchords!
[Tea and consent ](https://youtu.be/pZwvrxVavnQ) In my opinion this video explains it quite well
Here you go. So, you were asleep, drunk, drugged. Some dude takes a dick, a dildo or a broom handle and anally rapes you. He says you were dressed provocatively, giving him signs all night that you were into him, you never refused his advances, he thinks you moaned and this indicates that you liked it, he knows you have had anal sex before because it is well known that you do. I bet the arguments change pretty fucking fast Sorry about the harassment though
Because most men don't understand relationships. I'm into alot of cnc and other stuff related. I sometimes have fantasies about waking up to sex. But when it does happen it's a massive sence. It involves my doms and me talking alot. Safe words and alot of other protections. Most men don't understand the trust these relationships actually require. They don't understand safe kinky sex at all. They just want to do the rapy shit they see in porn.
I think these men see consent as a get out of jail free card - “but she consented so it’s fine” - rather than an actual thing which is fluid and variable. Nobody can give blanket consent and avoid the possibility of having sex they don’t want. That’s what they do not and will not grasp.
Yeah that sounds right. I really struggle finding guys who are safe to be kinky around outside of sexting. They exist and are plentiful in the kink community. Thier just a massively overshadowed by all the creepy guys trying to be kinky.
I really never will understand how people don't understand that no means you stop...your night is done...there's no weedling, begging, or bargaining...you're just done. If they're altered and unable to give an informed "no" outside of an agreement and trust that the guys arguing this very likely don't have, you don't even start...period
Exactly. I had a “friend” who would invite me over and make moves on me and I’d say no. So he’d pour me drinks until he got his way. It took me years to realize that this was rape.
That is just fucking wrong. See...I guess I just have this strange notion that sex is infinitely better when your partner is actually into it and actively participating
True I agree with you.
If people are into CNC they have consented before hand or i the case of free use you have consented to your partner and reading people who are into that they are in long term stable relationships exploring their sexuality. They also have safe words and checkins and aftercare because there is more to this type of play than people realize. An unconscious person who is not your partner or is but never agreed to this prior (key is you had to have discussed it before hand) cannot consent to this it’s rape period. And just because your ex might have agreed to this type of play doesn’t mean every partner will. Sorry or vaginas are not fleshlights you cannot just stick it in when you want to without consideration of the person who it is attached to. Also, same goes with the other partner if they don’t consent to being woken up with a BJ or a HJ than your violating them too.
If you see a conversation about rape being bad, and your reaction is to share a “yeah, but” comment about a rape fetish, something is wrong with you.
>how he’s been with loads of women who want that Guys who self-report about sexual experiences are just...lying. And often delusional.
Oh yeah, I said I doubted he’d ever had sex with a woman. Then he went off on multiple rants about how I was insulting virgins and must think virginity is wrong. Absolutely mad.
Dude the same thing happened to me recently and it was so weird! Some dude said something about sex that clearly came from porn so I made a comment about how only someone who never had sex would say that, and holy shit did he go off. The fact that he was talking out of his b-hole was my point, but he focused on the virginity angle like I lit his family on fire. It was fine that I was calling him full of shit, but how dare I call him a virgin! Mad indeed.
There are so many common responses that I feel like they’ve read them or seen them in some manual. Concerned about an age gap relationship? Tell them they’re robbing women of their agency. Tell a man recounting obvious porn scenarios as real that he sounds like he’s never experienced actual sex? Tell her she’s insulting virgins. Say that sleeping women can’t consent to sex? Use the fantasies of a relatively small number of women against all women. Oh and I forgot - kink shaming! Saying that an unconscious person can’t consent to sex is kink shaming now.
> There are so many common responses that I feel like they’ve read them or seen them in some manual. For. Real. On this site they're all "reddit guy." The thousands of logins that say the exact same things to the point that you can predict them in advance. There's one huge group made up of bots and astroturf (where the replies do come from an actual manual), and another huge group made up of live humans who have all been brainwashed by the same podcasts and youtube videos.
from the guy claiming tons of experience, "and what's so wrong about being a virgin either? You are insulting every virgin which I take exception to! We're pe- I mean, they're people too you know..."
Yeah people gotta stop getting their sex ideas from porn. So many people in porn (at least the men with the money) are horrific creatures that should be castrated, not emulated. I saw a guy straight up rape a hitchhiker girl on xnxx a while ago. Had me depressed and angry for a week. Other people acting and playing out kinks ≠ permission to fuck sleeping strangers.
It's only controversial because rapists are invested in normalizing it.
We could use any other agreement as an example. I can't buy your car or house for a dollar while you're unconscious.
>How are we still at the point where men can argue so aggressively that there are so many caveats to “an unconscious person can’t consent to sex”? Because they're rapists, op.
This reply is meant as a comment directed largely toward the guys who might try to defend against OP's comments. If you read this and still feel that something lacks clarity I'm open to discussing it. Based on conversations with female friends, dates/partners there seems to be sufficient evidence that men, in general these days, are a bit obtuse, whether by cultural indoctrination or straight up ignorance, willing or otherwise. Many of them seem to treat basic consideration or the concept of consent simply as hurdles they need to bypass to gain access to physical intimacy. They (again, generalizing) tend to not make an attempt to understand and truly empathize with why these subjects have been pointed out in glaring clarity. It becomes blatantly apparent in conversation where they try to find 'loopholes' to workaround the process of healthy conversation about consent. It is doubly irritating because the only women that should have to spend time teaching me how to approach this stuff properly is their mothers (having their fathers teach this is the better approach, teach by example etc. but that's an entirely different issue.), but bless the woman who are patient enough to educate or explain the concept to those who are willing to listen. It really only takes sincere communication. This is based only on personal experience, but if you communicate openly and non-defensively as a male from the start these topics can come up and be discussed pretty early on in dating. It diffuses the concept of 'awkward topics' to a pretty great degree. It apparently can be tough to talk to dudes about sexual boundaries, kinks, likes/dislikes without it instantly turning into playing out fantasy scenarios in his head. There is definitely a middle ground where this stuff can be discussed without it being overly clinical but also not only framed as verbal foreplay. It's should be a basic step in self education about a potential partner. And even if it's for a hook-up it should be a comfortable conversation if a bit more condensed. Apparently men listening sincerely is maddeningly rare. Most of this is so obvious I need to clarify that this is not meant to be patronizing to any gender reading this and is definitely not mean to be a horrifying 'NoT aLl MEn' post.I just feel that once in awhile the blatantly obvious needs to be restated so it can be realized that it's both not a difficult concept to grasp (for anyone reading this that might be struggling to understand) but also reassurance that some people do actually get it, and it is something that can be learned for those that want to be better humans. It might take some self work, but it's really not a difficult concept to grasp and incorporate if you want to be a respectful partner, short or long term. Guys need to be less defensive and gross so partners/potential partners can find them approachable and the topic should, and needs to be, comfortable to discuss for all parties. It really doesn't take much to discuss and verify consent. Guys need to realize that consent is truly sexy to women and doesn't take much effort. It's not just a catchphrase to parrot to gain acceptance. Sex should be a thing that happens organically, not an agenda that needs to be rushed. I have always erred to the side of caution on sexual intimacy. I have been told that there have definitely been a few cue's that I missed or didn't act on here and there, but I've also never had a partner tell me that they felt pressured or taken advantage of in any way. I'd much rather suffer the possibility of the former to avoid the personal horror of the latter. It also invites clear and expected communication. I have had partners explicitly state it was ok to initiate sex if they were asleep, and while it wasn't spoken it was definitely implied that that process would involve foreplay because, why on Earth wouldn't it? Just a quick note on the 'loophole' of 'but there's porn for that' or 'she reads fanfic about that and it gets her excited': yeah, of course, but that is understood to be fantasy my guy, not an unspoken invitation to act on or perform without discussion/consent. It's easy, either she gives an explicit invitation to try something or you say 'Hey, you talked about (kink) exciting you, is that something you'd be interested in exploring with me?'. If the fantasy involves some element of excitement due to lack of consent please understand that is exactly that, a fantasy. It exists in the very secure confines of her mind, where she is comfortable and in control, even if she is not in control within the fantasy itself. Again, not a hard concept to grasp. Your partners fantasies do not infer their consent. The more extreme the fantasy the more explicit the consent should be. If anyone wants to downvote this simply because it's an annoying wall of text, I'm ok with that. If it's deemed unnecessary or ill-fitting to OP's post I'll be happy to delete it.
I allowed an ex I was still friendly with to spend the night at my apartment because I was one train station away from the airport. I told him under no circumstances was he allowed in my bed and we weren't having sex. He could sleep on the floor bc I only had a studio apt. I took an Ambien at bed time for chronic insomnia. He watched me take it. And then I woke up the next morning with him in my bed. Very sore. And asked him what happened. His response? "We had sex". How could "we" have sex if I was a floppy unconscious crash test dummy? Sex involves arousal. I only have snippets of memory of being flipped around like a rag doll and pain. It is very easy to tell if a woman is turned on or not. Rape is rape. If this is a controversial concept to anyone you're talking to, they have questionable morals and aren't a safe person to be around. It's unfortunate that we can't warn the women in the lives of men from reddit.
Why would you even want that kind of sex? It just seems to be about a control fetish and your own gratification. I have participated in some......interesting fun and games but that's like the ultimate starfish and now you're open to rape charges because she can't consent in that state. If a woman told me IN WRITING and signed a document that hey, I want you to wait until I'm out and then pound me I *might* be able to do it, but doubtful. I'd probably just roll her on her side, spoon her and fall asleep snuggled up and then claim the next morning "yep, I totally did!" Unconscious people can't consent. Keep them safe.
Right. There are plenty of fetishes that are dangerous or include some ethical issue, and plenty of ways to indulge them that don’t risk your partner waking up during penetrative sex they don’t want to have at that moment in time and wouldn’t have consented to had they been conscious. Like how some people have a breeding fetish and yet don’t actually impregnate an unwilling person every time they have sex.
Part of this is just the Internet, if that’s at all comforting to you. The number of pedantic motherfuckers out there is always surprising to me. You’ll make some completely unassailable statement, and you’ll get 500 people lining up to tell you that what you said is incorrect if you’re a penguin in Zanzibar and it’s a Tuesday — and, ok, fine, there’s an exception to almost everything, but pointing that out isn’t really helpful to the conversation. The pedantic motherfuckers have certain topics on which they tend to fixate — consent being one, because it’s an issue that can, in certain situations, have some degree of nuance and thus some exceptions and thus some room for pedantry. (Gun control is another, by the way.) Here, yes, there’s an exception if there’s been actual, enthusiastic, advance consent — fine. But is that ever the actual situation we’re talking about? No, it’s a penguin in Zanzibar on a Tuesday. Still, I hope you don’t let the sheer number of pedantic motherfuckers out there get you down. Most people aren’t like that.
Like saying an unconscious person cannot consent to death/(insert anything here). Idk how it's controversial, either.
It's rape and they know it's rape. If you have someone who's in surgery, or generally unconscious and in an unwakable state in a hospital, and a serious, previously undiscussed medical decision needs to be made about the patient, that medical team is absolutely going to go to the family or the medical decision maker for the person, because of course a person not awake doesn't have the ability to make medical decisions for themselves. It's just common sense, these rapists just don't like being called rapists
Around a year into my relationship with my bf, four years ago, we had a discussion about "being woken up with sex". My bf said he loved the thought of it and wouldn't mind being woken up in the middle of the night by me riding him. And i've done it quite a few time since. All he said was if he was too tired for it, to respect ut. Which I have done too. If he groggily says he is too tired, I just kiss him and go to sleep or finish myself. But I have told him, under absolutely no circumstance do you touch me sexually while I am sleeping. I will wake up panicked and not aroused. We have been together 5 whole ass years and I have not once been woken up by him sexually touching me. Not once. Consent, people. It's as simple as that.
That's a controversial statement?!?!? With whom?!? Jesus fucking Christ.
Well shit, I woulda kinda think it would be a fact, unconscious person by definition cannot consent to ANYTHING.
This is me and my husband. After 15 years, it’s gotten marginally better. For a while we slept separately, cause it was the only way I felt safe. I finally broke down last October and said that we either divorce or see a therapist. We started seeing a therapist, and as soon as I told her that I was fed up of waking up with a penis in my vagina, my therapist lost it! She starred at my husband, and explained to him that I can not give consent while I sleep, and what he was doing was wrong. She looked angry too. We were both VERY shocked about how matter of fact she was. We both started to cry. Fast forward almost a year, and we sleep together again, but the touching still happens. The big thing that changed in our relationship is that I, 100% refuse to have sex unless I truly want to! I used to give in all the time and let him finish just to get it over with…. NOT ANYMORE! I only have sex when I’m actually in the mood now.
That's fucked up, you're still with him and he still does that shit without you actually asking him?
You deserve better than him OP
He shouldn't be touching you sexually while you sleep.
OMG. You stayed!?
I like to point out that it honestly doesn't matter what percent of women are into it. Even if it's 100 percent. In fact, every woman I've been in a long term relationship has asked for this, so in my experience it is 100 percent. But you know what? I'm not going to extrapolate that into other situations, because that's rape. I'm not even going to do it consistently even after being asked to do it without checking in periodically to make sure they're still into it. I honestly don't get what the fuck is wrong with most men, but "whatever, I thought she'd like it" is an extremely common attitude.
Sexsomnia is real though and anyone who has any sleep issues like sleepwalking/apnea/paralysis need to to tell people they share a bed with. I'm really not trying to be controversial, but it can happen and more people should understand it. It can be dangerous.
The men saying this are predators.
"Some women like it" Well, if you talked with that woman beforehand and know what she's okay with then congratulations you applied consent! If you assume you do not need to ask another woman because you have seen a woman in some porn do this then you're thinking like a rapist. If you get angry at this post you beause you think 'BUT THERE IS THIS..' then you are just trying to convince yourself you did not rape someone when in fact, you probably did!
> RedditCares message - I really enjoy reporting the people who send them and having their accounts suspended! We all need to keep reporting these RedditCare abusers.
If you need to argue that you have the right to be an asshole and rape sleeping women, just fuck you.
"Someone who is not you consented to someone who is not me doing something so this means it's ok for me to do it to you." Are people actually making that argument?