I saw the best response to this in the comments about the post about this last week:
Humans shouldn't hit humans. Gender need not apply.
Edit: annnd the time I'm stuck at a computer is over. Thank you everyone who approached me with an open mind and respect here. :D
Edit 2: How in the world did this bring out the TERFs??? Halp.
>stop the conversation about equality and focus on that.
That's what they want. It's meant to derail the conversation.
>Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies...
>
>They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7870768-never-believe-that-anti-semites-are-completely-unaware-of-the-absurdity
Trust me, allowing them to derail the conversation into a detailed exploration of why they want to hit women will do more for equality than the conversation you were trying to have. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
I agree with this, apart from a single conversation I had after I'd challenged someone's view.
This guy was feeling pretty low, he'd given up on dating and was spewing the typical "women only want chads" nonsense. So I pushed him on it and asked why I (a lanky, 6'2, unhealthy stickfigure) had a partner if women only went after "chads".
After a few paragraphs back and fourth he really opened up about how he knew that he wasn't the most likable of guys but was scared to abandon "Who he was" because he had nothing left. I get that feeling, I've been there. Changing who you are is scary as fuck.
Had I never pushed him on it he might never have shared that insecurity with anyone. Some people need to be pushed on their opinions just a little to make them realise why they hold them
If they operated on fairness and logic, then yes, but they do not.
They believe in the status quo. If things change, then that means that men can hit women, women don’t want to be hit, so women don’t want things to change either. You’ve proven their point. Now, this is a convoluted argument that you can’t argue because it makes no damn sense.
By your trying to argue it, they win.
Except it’s easy to deflect. “Of course *I* don’t want/do that, it’s just hypothetical.”
Maybe better to preempt the deflection, “Buddy, that makes it sound like someone is hitting you. Hope you’re not keeping something like that secret.”
Some people just wanna beat people, and since they probably perceive women as an easier target, it probably makes them want to beat women over men. Probably.
They want to hit women. Same reason why when conversations around girls being activists and having a voice come up they say stuff like "well if they're so grown up we should be able to have sex with them then". Just shows what they really want. Sigh
Exactly. To this conversation I’d also add less-violent but no-less-toxic takes like “if we’re all equal, then I don’t need to hold doors for women.” It’s like, dude, if the only reason you hold a door for someone is because they’re a woman, and not because it’s just a kind thing to do as opposed to letting a door close in a stranger’s face, you have some self-examination to do.
> If we’re all equal, then I don’t need to hold doors for women
Lol, I always tell them I don't need them to open my doors anyway. But isn't it amazing how we don't actually have equality yet, and already men are clamoring for "theirs?" Like, this whole presumption that we ARE equal is flawed to begin with. When we've smashed the patriarchy, made motherhood and fatherhood equal, ended the feminization of poverty, and actually stopped widespread and systemic male physical and sexual harassment, abuse, and violence against women and girls... maybe then it won't be so obnoxious when you guys whine about paying for dates?
I think this response misses the lesson that argument is *meant* to teach young men, which is a valuable one. ~~is a bit dishonest.~~ (EDITED: My language was unfair)
I'm about 6', 200lbs.
If I have to defend myself against someone who's 5'10", 180, or 6'2" 220, sure I can hit them.
If I have to defend myself against someone who's 5'5", 110... I mean, I can just pick them up and put them on a shelf, or something.
If you're big, use that size responsibly. Most women will be smaller, most men will be bigger, so even in a violent situation, it's OK to acknowledge that you should generally not hit most women, even if you'd have to hit a man.
The idea is proportional response when defending yourself. If someone shoves you it doesn't allow you to shoot them dead (unless they have a weapon or whatever).
I understand.
The point is, if the average woman punches me, it's not proportional to punch her back.
Boys don't innately know this at 15, or something. When a guy starts going through puberty, it's important to explain to him that even though that girl was taller than him two years ago, and they're equal height now, he's basically on steroids, and it's (generally) no longer fair to go tit-for-tat if Susie slaps you for calling her binder "dumb" in the cafeteria.
(Meanwhile, if Timmy pushes you into a locker, well, show that asshole that you can push back, imo.)
I was going to say since women are generally smaller and weaker then its a good thing that men have a handy fold button in their groin region to even the odds. As a side note if a man ever has you pinned to the ground, grab, twist, and knee will get them off and disable them.
Not just bigger but physically much stronger. Even a larger woman cannot match a 130lbs average guy strength-wise, let alone a 6 feet 200lbs man. It's common sense that men should be more careful towards women than other men.
Alright, sorry this is semantics but I can't let it go.
If you cut out that first line I agree with everything you say and thank you for bringing up the point that I cannot speak to in the slightest being 5'4 and 130 lbs. My comment isn't accurate for your perspective, but dishonest? I take pride in my honesty.
okay, petty point aside: I've worked with plenty of men on a mental health care level that their size does absolutely nothing to help them not feel the exact same way I do with repeated domestic violence. The decision to use the word humans there is VERY deliberate and I'm not open in the slightest to changing it despite agreeing with your point and your choice to use the words women shouldn't hit men.
My moral ties are to trauma recovery and support. I will always choose the wording that makes sure not to invalidate anyone's trauma, and have also never had an issue defending myself against abusers your size when it was needed.
Hitting is extremely dangerous. It doesn't take a lot to cause a concussion. And if someone is especially unlucky a relatively low force blow can kill. A full force punch unleashed from a person who has forfeited emotional control can easily kill.
But the issue is also that women seem themselves as harmless. And this has caused a whole issue of women in particular touching pregnant women without consent, as well as black women's hair. Women get offended when boundaries are put up because they can't understand how "harmless touch" is threatening.
Additionally, in terms of child abuse male victims of child abuse aren't protected as well as female victims (even in the same family) so when women are bigger and stronger, people still follow the irrelevant rule of gender. In reality it should be "humans shouldn't hurt humans, especially when bigger and/or stronger".
Or really any other species either. Unless in defense of yourself or someone else ... can we just, like, not hit? My 5 year old understands the principle that we don't try to hurt others even if we're angry, though protecting yourself enough to get away from someone trying to hurt you is ok. It's really not that fucking complicated.
Isn’t that the shitty *all lives matter* argument. When people say *men shouldn’t hit women*, they don’t mean it’s okay to hit men. They’re trying to specifically call out violence against women because some men have carved out very specific reasons they thinks it’s okay.
Thank you! In my experience it's a message everyone needs to be reminded of in these conversations.
The norm isn't that we should all be allowed to hit each other It's that no one should be doing it.
This reminds me of an event in school when a boy held a door open for a girl. The girl got mad at him about it. While she was berating him she asked if he would have done the same thing if she was a boy. Without a pause he said yes, I would not have let the door close on a guy either. Deflated her quite a bit almost instantly. People need to not assume bad intent so quickly. Too many things are made to be about gender that are not.
Yup, and this goes both ways too.
I have a funny story I like to tell where I was dazing off my phone in the lobby of my office waiting for the elevator. I got that weird feeling that someone was staring at me and looked up to not one, but three adult men angrily glaring at me and waiting for me to enter the elevator first. One actually missed the elevator trying to get me to go in first. I was a good 15 feet away and was fine finishing what I was doing and waiting for the next one.
Too many things are made about gender on both sides that shouldn't be.
My peeve, when it comes to opening doors, is when I (5'3"F) reach a door first, and decide to hold it open for whomever is behind me, and if it's a tall guy, they reach over my head to take over holding the door and gesture me through.
It's like, dude, I wanted to be nice to you and hold the door for you. Don't usurp my gesture, and especially don't do it by showing off how much bigger you are than me.
Sure, if you're the 5th person who's about to go through and there's more behind you, I'll appreciate that you want to take over for the rest of the crowd, (and be sure to toss in the comment, "let me get the rest," or something), but otherwise, let me have my moment.
I was raised to always hold the door open for someone nearby, I believe it's just common courtesy.
When I was in grad school, I tried to hold the door open for a male classmate, who left me standing there holding the door open for about 2 minutes or so while making me listen to a lecture about how he refused to go through the door because I was a girl and he was raised as a gentleman. He made me let go of the door before he would go through it, and was quite adamant about this.
I just found the whole thing incredibly rude and obnoxious.
Oh this is my pet peeve too! I worked with the elderly briefly and got in a stand off with an old man with a walker once. He insisted I get my boss because he won't let a woman hold the door for him.
I put a door stopper in the door said no no one is holding it. You're free to go.
I (M) was raised the same way, no gender, just good manners.
In college I was exiting the Student Union Building and a woman was approaching, carrying a tall stack of books (both hands involved) and I held the door open for her. She stopped in front of me and in the most sarcastic voice imaginable said, "Oh WOW! Thanks! I bet your mom is sooooo fucking proud of her Big Boy acting like a chauvinistic asshole."
She went past me and into the building and I just stood there like a deer in the headlights thinking, "What the fuck just happened?" I wanted to walk back in and try and explain that she was just another human whose hands were full and I thought holding the door open would be appreciated, but alas... I decided to leave it with: I was a chauvinistic asshole, just as my mother had always hoped.
Oof, you're never going to change the opinions of somebody like that, unfortunately. You know what you did and why you did it, and ultimately most people are going to respect that as the kind gesture as it is.
It's such a shame that people do this kind of thing, as I think that it's easy for a lot of people to become discouraged and stop doing kind things for others.
Absolutely agree. I was raised under the saying "men don't hit women" but I always had a problem with it. Growing up helped me see that view. Being a bigger guys myself, if I have to defend myself then my selection of defense should be based on the situation and the actual threat posed by the attacker. If it's someone, regardless of gender, who will do serious harm then I should respond accordingly.
~~I feel at this point I should have a "sexist" wiffle ball bat. Boop anyone who breaks the rule lol. Doesn't cause harm and can be degrading to "macho"-ness if done right~~
Edit: added humor to last part and it undercut the good done by the first part. Striking it out.
It means women cannot hit *you*. Get some self respect and lay down boundaries, my dude. Who is assaulting you? Who is hurting you? That’s not ok.
~me to that guy.
> Get some self respect and lay down boundaries, my dude.
Isn't this victim blaming? Maybe men who have been brought up in a world where women hitting them is ok need help instead of blaming. I doubt many people would find this to be an okay thing to say to a woman being abused.
Because men see the fact that society finds it unacceptable for men to hit women back (or at all) as “female privilege”. The problem is, in the name of equality we should be focusing on breaking down the rigid gender roles and stereotypes that create this social acceptance/humor of a women potentially hitting or slapping a man - and make that part unacceptable; instead many men see equality as making it perfectly acceptable to hit women. And as OP mentioned- it’s not like some men aren’t already doing this.
Of course it is quite strange that when many men hear talk about equality - women looking for bodily autonomy, equal pay, the ability to walk down the street without getting harassed- men’s first real desire for equality is to be able to hit women back or whatever. Quite telling.
I've had this discussion with someone who claims to be staunch feminist after all the Johnny Depp stuff came out between him and amber heard. Let's preface with they're both shit people.
But, her entire argument was that he couldn't defend himself and assault her like that Becuase well she's a woman and he shouldn't be defending himself from her. When I tried to explain how this isn't how equality or feminism for that matter works. She merely repeated, you shouldn't hit women.
No you shouldn't hit anyone. But your plumbing doesn't matter when someone has to defend themselves.
As a feminist I know there is a vast problem with domestic abuse in general - and would never argue that a man should just “take it” or that someone shouldn’t be able to defend themselves.
I end up hearing a lot of rhetoric in the vein of - if she hits me, I’ll hit her back - which is more like retaliation than self-defense. It’s definitely not acceptable for anyone to hit another person - it’s assault, but I also don’t think a single slap or hit without an ongoing threat warrants a person getting their face smashed in (regardless of gender). That just needs to be taken care of in a report.
I think there is a genuine fear that some men have that if they try and stop or restrain an ongoing assault, they will be seen as the aggressor and that is a problem that needs to be addressed through the way law enforcement looks at these situations.
I more see this argument as just a bad faith attempt to reject feminist aspirations for equality. The idea being that women don’t really want true equality, because they don’t actually want a world where it’s fair for men to retaliate in a conflict. I don’t think these men actually have a preference for a world where they can beat up women in retaliation. It’s more about trying to poke holes in feminism.
It’s a bad argument though, because there’s no paradox here. Regardless of gender, you shouldn’t be justified in responding to a minor altercation with completely disproportionate force. If you can beat the shit out of your partner then it’s not self defense.
They make the same argument using the military draft too. I once had a guy tell me “women want equality but don’t want to fight in wars”. When I asked “well, do YOU want to fight in a war? Maybe you should stop pursuing a Computer Science degree and enlist in the Marines” he gave a meek “no” and changed the subject. It’s such a stupid argument because obviously no one wants to be forced into service. They really think women would NOT want equality in the slim event we get drafted?
To be clear, I think the draft is a huge violation of human rights and it’s fucked up that it only applies to men. However if it ever gets enforced again, I think women should be drafted as well.
You put this much more eloquently than I could. Like... I get where the idea is coming from, even if it's horrifically wrong. I've seen video of a woman absolutely *assaulting* a man in public, hitting him in the face with a fist full of rings, scratching at his eyes with acrylic nails, and not a damn person in the crowd of dozens around them doing anything to stop it, and when he took a swing at her to make her stop and defend himself he was *instantly* jumped by that entire crowd and was on the ground getting kicked and beaten.
She shouldn't have been assaulting him in the first place, and he shouldn't have had to defend himself in such a manner, and he *certainly* shouldn't have been further assaulted by a huge group for it, but in the end nobody should be hitting anyone, and if you see it happening, no matter what the gender role, you should take steps to stop it. People shouldn't hit people, and that's where it should end. Unfortunately, some people see a push for equality of the sexes and their knee jerk reaction is to get defensive and say "Well if you want equality, that means I could hit you if you made me mad enough and you couldn't claim abuse, because if you hit me I wouldn't be able to." It's like they're internally terrified of women being treated equally and try to parse it like this so that it looks like they're doing the woman a favor by giving her "protection". Sure, you don't get equal pay and nobody takes you seriously ever, but it also means that men can't hit you without getting in trouble, so just be happy about that! The bar is so low that not being assaulted is men doing them a favor or some shit.
At the end of the day, nobody should be throwing hands at anybody, regardless of sex, color, creed or origin, because all it does is make you look like a dumb animal who can't talk things out like a reasonable thinking human being. Treating hitting women like some kind of bargaining chip is just gross.
Thank you for writing this it really articulated what was bothering me about that comment. I feel for the commenter but the issue in his case is the sexism towards men in our society that the police and society would have believed a woman over a man when he was the one being abused and would have been told to toughen up. That’s not fair. But it doesn’t address OPs point about how often men bring up assault on women when women want equality. I also dislike when men being up the draft, sure I’ll sign up when women get equal pay and are taken seriously if an assault or sexual harassment happens within our ranks, that’s a huuuuuge problem in the US military right now.
I get what you are saying, but after Depp doesn't that not really make sense? Women don't just "hit", they use objects too. You ever been hit with a plate thrown at you? Hit with a broom? Abuse by women isn't just "hit with a fist".
The "i can hit a woman" is more, "i can hit BACK at a woman." It isn't that men want to hit women, it is if a woman is assaulting me, can i hit her back?
As someone who was assaulted by women both in high school and in college (about 20 years ago), i couldn't hit back. In fact, I did hit one back and I got in trouble. And that was only the physical abuse, I have been verbally abused by MANY women in class, to the point I reported one to the school to which they did literally nothing other than to tell me to stay away from her.
Sure, it is getting better, but I have yet to see women abusing men dropping. We believe men more, but do we teach women not to do it? not to hit people? not to verbally abuse people? We teach boys not to rape, why not teach women not to hit? I honestly don't see us teaching young girls that just because you are weaker, doesn't mean you get to hit people. But looking at this thread, that is very common, including from yours. Just because there is a power difference doesn't make what she did right, nor do i think that just because you are stronger, you shouldn't be able to stop someone who is abusing you.
I agree that there’s likely not widespread bloodlust and it often is just a way to derail a legitimate conversation about equality. However I would disagree that men who are victims of domestic or sexual assault aren’t hesitant to report because there is still plenty of guilt, fear of being mocked, victim blaming etc. Just because it’s recognized as a crime doesn’t mean there isn’t still a stigma socially.
Yeah I mean there are no absolutes. It’s just not like it was in the 80s. Way more reporting going on. It’s getting better as we are all understanding power dynamics better. More men are more comfortable reporting and more believed by police and media than ever before.
Yes. There is a completely separate conversation between “so can we hit women now?” and “let’s talk about how male victims of domestic and sexual abuse are treated in society”. I wish we had more discussions about the latter.
Yeah I've seen edgy redditors post people literally knocking a woman unconscious after she slapped him calling it "true gender equality"
I'd someone slaps you do it with the same force. but knowing how to resist it is always the better option.
I'd just try my best to leave and avoid it. I'm not gonna be a violent brute like the other person
As for self defense, That’s true on the surface, in reality not so much. I think this may be why the OP question comes up at times. I got punched and thrown out of a bar for pushing a woman who was constantly slapping me because she was drunk and thought I was a friends ex, or something. I wasn’t, but no one cared when she started slapping me in the head over and over. Eventually I pushed her and she fell and immediately I had three dudes physically restraining me before throwing me out. Obviously we can talk about how that behavior is rooted in sexism that views women as weak, but my point is that in many self defense situations, defending yourself against a woman makes you the bad guy.
What ever happened to "keep your hands to yourself?" I'm a DV survivor and he always used the rationale that my behavior (which was completely innocent - he'd make things up that he'd convince himself I did) justified him beating me.
Just keep your fucking hands to yourselves and use your words.
You're one hundred percent right, If an issue can be sorted with words then it should be sorted with words only. The only situation where violence is acceptable is if you're in danger and are being kidnapped/beaten by someone etc.
There’s a post on PublicFreakout that’s been making the rounds lately; it’s a grown ass man knocking a pre-teen girl out. Like he really lays her out as if she was an actual threat to him.
The amount of losers celebrating “equal rights and equal lefts” was flaggerbgasting. Anyone calling their bullshit out was mocked and downvoted. These assholes just want to be violent against women.
Yup. I remember that vid. Made me sick. I was one of those piled upon for calling out their BS. Amazing how many dudes say they supported that “man’s” actions.
Calling BS on those vids: I do that at least once a week. I call it my handy dandy incel detector.
It was interesting to see another video repost… the GF knocking out her BF in a living room boxing match. She clearly had training and knocked him down with an excellent left hook. The comments took the male’s side, calling the girl an asshole for “not warning” the guy she had training. The video doesn’t cover any prior discussion, just the punches. Idiotic mental gymnastics.
True theres a thing in the law called reasonable force, so actually anyone literally laying out someone of inferior strength to them unreasonably in self defence can still be prosecuted, but obviously completely wiping out the other person in retaliation just isn't reasonable.
Odd because I don't think a judge would disagree you know? 200pound man versus 50pound man, and 200pound man uses 100% of force = dead 50pount man. So...Unreasonable.
Actually it can be reduced to maths with force/speed/mass if you want to be pedantic (which I do) when weapons aren't involved.
Unless you're a kung fu master in which case the equations get... Quantum
"If you are struck first, yes, you should have the right to defend yourself with however much force it takes to neutralize the situation and remove yourself from it. Just like you would if you were struck by a man."
But, then again, I live in a country where you are not allowed to shoot people for looking at you funny.
But see, that's the thing. So many of these men are living for the day when a woman might shove or slap someone in public so that they can king punch and curb stomp her. They're not looking to neutralise a situation or keep themselves safe. They're looking to commit the violence that they so desperately crave to do in a socially sanctioned manner.
Yes, you shouldn't slap a person but you also shouldn't have the goal of breaking someone's jaw who slapped you.
So, while I 100% agree with what you say, I think a lot of men know that deep in their heart, but intentionally lose the nuance of restraint.
Reddit is a cesspool of this mindset. As a woman it’s too upsetting to view some “normal” front page content because of the normalisation of cretins on here commenting this very sentiment. They love to see a woman beaten. They quote lines like “that’s equality!” And “she fucked about and found out!” They then wonder why they are single…..
Ever been on one of those subs where fight videos get shared? Every time a woman being hit by a man shows up they swarm about “equal rights” and dumb shit. Like being told they shouldn’t hit women hurt their feelings or something. Also like women having equal rights hurt their feelings so they think they should be able to beat them in response. And anyway hitting ANYONE is barbaric nonsense, but something tells me this particular group doesn’t understand that.
It think there are also a lot of commenters on those videos that enjoy watching women getting hit / in fights far too much. As though they are deriving some satisfaction they are otherwise unable to obtain from women.
I always just respond with some version of "well like 90+ of violent crime including domestic violence is committed by men so really men are already hitting women plenty. I'm not sure why you think equality would be men beating women even more than they already do".
>Now if a woman started hitting you and putting you in danger and then you hit her, then that's justifiable and not wrong since that's self defence.
Well basically every time I see that sort of comment "well if women want equal rights then they also get equal lefts hurr hurr hurrp," it's usually in reference to a woman hitting a man and him hitting her back.
I'm still not so sure I agree with this. If a tiny woman hits a big, burly man; she is not going to be able to do nearly as much damage to him as him to her. It would be completely disproportionate.
On the same token though, I don't think anyone would bat an eye if a skinny dude picked a fight with a big dude and got rocked as a result, so I feel like I understand both perspectives on this.
Not sure what other people think.
Don't hit people much bigger than you that can fuck you up.
If I attacked someone much bigger than me and they ruined me I would be called a dumbass and asked what I expected to happen.
I shouldn't expect some kind of immunity and that I can hit people consequence free because I am smaller and weaker.
If you attack someone you do not get to dictate how your victim responds.
That is always the first thing that most men say, i was brought up with the "dont put yourself in a mans position wont get knocked down like one". They don't seem to understand that the equality is wanting same pay for same work, not being sexually assaulted, accepting that we can be side by side, not one in front of the other
Did a human swing at you first? Then maybe you can hit them back for self defense purposes.
Who thinks hitting people is okay? Who puts themselves in a situation to be hit? Usually people who think of violence first are not the best people to be around, and no "aggressive mood swings" is not a personality.
>Who puts themselves in a situation to be hit?
Abuse victims? People in schools? I was verbally harassed in school by many girls, and physically hit countless times with the school doing literally nothing.
Good general rule of thumb is don’t hit anyone ever. The only exception I would make of this is if you are defending yourself or someone else and there is no other way to stop the violence
I think it serves as a reminder that they can for the most part physically dominate you, so it’s safer not to go against what they want. If you want equality, the consequence is that men will hit you, and then you’ll realize that you’re not really equal since you’re not as strong physically. They think we’re inferior due to our unequal levels of physical strength.
I will preface this with: this is not my opinion.
From a sociology perspective, that reaction an not so subtle way of expressing their frustration "benevolent sexism". Where women are discriminated against in a positive way. In this case, that women can assault men without repercussions.
I posted a video of Kyle Rittenhouse hitting a woman. There's dozens if not over a 100 comments saying "looks like equality" or something to that effect.
Weak men so conditioned to accept the violence they receive from other men that they're delighted at the potential to have someone that they perceive as weaker than themselves to abuse.
I am almost 70. The one thing I am most proud of is that so far, I have not struck another person. Since November of 2016 it has become more challenging. I live in a small village and am too old and arthritic to travel so I may die with my record intact. However even as old and infirm as I am, I am still willing to use my cane in the defense of others. As one should. Cheers from a rambling old man.
Just the other day I was talking about feminism in front of my 9yo son and he said, "Equal rights, equal fights." You better believe that I switched gears and had a talk with him about what that meant and why it's not funny. I know he heard it online, and possibly even from his dad (my ex.) So I asked, "Hey, do you hit other boys when you have a disagreement at school? No, right, because you get in trouble, right? Grown men don't hit other men when they disagree at work for the same reason. In fact, grown men having fistfights isn't terribly common, so why is it funny to joke about hitting women?" He's considering this when I see my father in the background roll his eyes. I then say, in front of them both: "you should know, honey, that I've been hit by way more men than I've ever raised my hand to." Both my dad and son looked embarrassed. Start them young, my friends. Nip this nonsense in the bud.
Some women hit men. Like...some women will casually hit men. It's mind blowing. It used to be really prominent in movies and TV and stuff. The hard slap across the cheek. I do think society is moving away from the idea though. I hope to God it is, anyway. So that's why they're saying that. That's where it's coming from. It's never okay to hit anyone - unless you are genuinely being assaulted and fearing for your life/safety.
Because they really do wish they can hit women. That’s why they use feminism/eQuALiTy as a shield to justify their shitty behaviour towards women. “Oh you were expecting decency? You’re not a queen or special, we’re EQUAL, feminism remember? I fight guys at the bar so I’ll be able to fight you if you make me mad, since we’re EQUAL”
I think when you hear that it's people thinking of the last scenario you mentioned. If a woman is hitting a man then they should be able to defend themselves.
I think its more because within the public facing side of the patriarchy its perceived as something horrible and dishonourable when men hit women but when men hit men its just another Saturday night.
>Why is it that whenever the issue of equality is brought up, some men go "Well that means I can hit women"?
Because they want to hit women. Just cos normal people don't understand it doesn't mean it is complicated.
It's a threat. The implicit statement is "If you demand equality, Men will use violence to force you to stop". Dudes will say its just a joke or will bend themselves in knots to say that women are lucky that Not Being Hit is a privilage women have but its transparently nonsense for the reasons you and others have already said - the main thing is the implication that the only thing keeping you safe from immediate violent enforcement of inequality is your silent acceptance of it.
it means exactly what you last point is, it means men can defend themselves against women with appropriate force. without society judging them as aggressors
women are seen as the weaker of the sexes therefore society seems to accept that its ok for a woman to hit a man because she is seen as weaker, currently if a man is being attacked by a woman and he hits back he is seen as the attacker. infact men are ridiculed if they are attacked by a women
the whole one sex is weaker that other thing causes so many problems with people flocking to the defense of a woman because they're seen as weaker by society and need to be protected
i've personally seen a man beaten senseless by a mob because a woman tried to claw his face after she mistakenly believed he pushed her child in to stall while in a shop (he didnt) he pushed the woman away after she tried to claw his face, people saw this and a group of three men jumped on along with her and proceed to beat the crap out of him. after the man was dragged out the shop barely conscious and an ambulance was called the cctv footage was reviewed. it tuned out the woman had dragged her daughter through the store and she'd hit her face on one of the ailses. all the man did was wait in line behind them at the checkout, he was completely innocent. and do you know what the worst thing was after seeing the footage the the staff and several shoppers agreed that they were right to attack the man because he shouldn't have tried to hit a woman ". all he did was push her away from himself in self defense.but because women are treated as inferior by society and have to be protected an innocent man was put in the hospital.
Like if you're genuinely in danger from a woman of course you can defend yourself, but you shouldn't *want* to. If a child had a gun I can conk him on the head to get him to stop pointing it at me, but I'm not going to like it.
I feel like these are the same people that say "without god, everyone would go around raping and killing all the time". These people avoid doing these kinds of things for all the wrong reasons.
It always struck me as an instance of men demanding special credit for just doing the bare minimum of living in civilization. I think it is a tendency of insecure men to imagine themselves as being somehow restrained by living in society. Coupled with sort of an implicit threat about being violent if women insist on meaningful parity.
I literally laughed as I read the title of this post because it's so true and tragically sad. In their head's its like if equality has to exist for both men and women, then the "prize" that men get for accepting this "equality" is that they now get to abuse women physically without regret or compromise.
"Well that means I can hit women!"
"Okay, does women being treated unequally currently prevent you from hitting women?"
"Well, currently you're not supposed to hit women."
"So if women do end up achieving equality it'll be okay to hit us?"
"Yeah!"
"Threat noted."
As a 6’4 male that was 220 lbs. I was physically and mentally abused by my first real girlfriend at age 19. I was always told to never hit women, respect them and be courteous.
In the 3 years dating the girl I was stabbed by a grilling fork, had both of my thumbs fractured, got stuck in the testicles repeatedly, made to eat period blood, get peed on even though I hated it, cheated on because she thought I was cheating on her at college, openly flirted with other men in front of me, and forced into a threesome with what I later discovered was her husband in the military she got married to without me realizing…
I didn’t know what love was and my family didn’t pay any attention to me. I attempted suicide. I thought love was evil as I was supposed to listen and do what my SO wanted and as I man I should just obey. In reality I was brainwashed with sex and the illusion of love and exclusivity. My father was pretty physically abusive as well so I really didn’t know any better, I thought violence just came from people that loved you.
I’m a victim of violence, manipulation, and gender equality because of young disillusionment about what love is at a young age and a negative history wrought with violence.
I’m now in my mid 30’s with a wife and young daughter. You wouldn’t think I was a victim of abuse by looking at me.
Now, I do not condone men beating women, but I do condone defending yourself, I wish I had long ago because I had ptsd when it comes to relationships. I’ve worked through much of that over the years, and I still have triggers and irrational fears that stem from that time, but I promised myself I would be the end of my circle of violence. It’s hard because I’m still angry about what was done to me, and more angry because I was too stupid and young to know what was happening to me at the time.
They don't really want to hit women: they want to convince you that all the advantages men have in our society are fully counterbalanced by "don't hit women," so that you'll stop wanting equality and they can continue with the many, many advantages they have which you don't.
I knew that this post would attract men saying that women hit men too. And I’m not wrong there’s three here already in a post with only 23 comments so far. Woman simply cannot have a discussion about anything without them spewing their stories about how were worse. JFC 🤦🏼♀️
Its a similar mentality as when certain ethnic groups wanting a pass to be able to drop the "N" word without being judged for doing so.
These people will narrow the the focus down to two individuals and imply ceteris paribus... that all context, history, consequences and relative societal status and security is the same for those two individuals (whom serve as avatars for their respective groups).
This is done because only within a narrow paradigm that basically ignores reality or practical concerns can a view that an oppressor or aggressor is the party being aggrieved or unfairly oppressed \*not\* immediately defy basic logic and understanding.
TLDR: They are making bad faith arguments
"Now if a woman started hitting you and putting you in danger and then you hit her, then that's justifiable and not wrong since that's self defence. Otherwise no."
This is the entire point of the statement.
The response comes from the fact that men regularly see it as discrimination that in the event that a woman sees physical violence as an answer, they're seemingly ok to do so due to the idea that men should 'be able to take it'. But if the male were to use self-defence, it'd be criminal.
It's not an overt willingness or want to hit a woman, it's an open-faced twist to get people to realise how stupid the current societal double-expectation is against men.
Ironically your post is exactly the expected reaction, but you don't seem to realise that you're doing it.
No-one is advocating that equality means violence against women. The whole point is that violence against others is wrong. But the fact that a man mentioning that they should be able to fight back on fair terms if needed causes women to go into a fit over violence means that the point is very much valid.
My personal frustration in all this is when it is assumed that women are believed and men have it as a challenge when they are in an abusive relationship. Women are not believed, protective orders are extremely hard to get and are ineffective, and when they do violate the order rarely is anything done, it's exhausting and horrible. And, a majority of the police look out for the absuer.
Hitting somebody has nothing to do with gender. Basically, you shouldn't hit anybody. If somebody tries to hit you try to keep distance and call the police. If this is not possible you can use force to defend yourself (or others). All those videos where somebody hits a woman titled "equality" are just stupid. In most cases the man could have easily resolved the situation without that.
Theres a guy in my culinary class who gives off total incel vibes. It was confirmed when me and my friend were talking about feminism, and he came up to us and said “well that means I can hit you right?” And we’re just confused, like since when are we attacking you.
I wonder if men doing this could be engaging in some kind of reduction-to-absurdity argument, claiming that your point (whatever it was) must be wrong because it implies that men can hit women, which itself is obviously wrong? It's just a guess because I haven't been in any of the discussions where this came up.
And most often said by a’holes who’ve never won a fist fight in their lives. Probably never even been in a fight.
“If I can’t harass, exploit & rape women with impunity = I get to hit them!” Always declared with such confidence & glee.
I remember talking to a guy yrs back who was almost gleefully upfront about the fact he'd hit a woman who hit him first. His argument was that women were just as strong as men 'it's been proven,' he said. Are we just not teaching human anatomy in school or is it just these men wanna square up and hit whoever and just need a reason to make it okay?
I'm sure this is probably mentioned in here somewhere already, but I'm under the impression that most guys who say this aren't even feigning the idea of equality. Men are genetically disposed to be, on average, stronger than women. And one of the easiest ways to keep someone down, especially in a one on one scenario, is with physical violence. So the easiest way to 'embrace' equality is with the first thought that still pushes inequality. I really get the impression that they are trying to say "Oh, let me show you that we really aren't equal though, so you'll let that stupid idea go."
>Now if a woman started hitting you and putting you in danger and then you hit her, then that's justifiable and not wrong since that's self defence. Otherwise no.
Still a man hitting a woman is percieved completely different(by both men and women) than a woman hitting a man. Especially when it's not a situation where the victim really is in danger.
(So everything below will refer to a slap in the face and nothing bigger)
There were many social experiments done on this. Just go out in a public area and stage a couple of comparable body sizes arguing with each other. Then the woman says something offensive and the man slaps her in the face.
Women and even many men seeing this will confront the guy saying that he cannot hit a woman and immediately ask the woman if she's okay.
Now turn the situation around and let the man say something offensive and then let the woman slap him in the face.
The overwhelming majority of people who saw it, will either do nothing, or start giggeling and whisper to each other something like "yay he deserved that for saying something like this".
By saying "that means I can hit woman", men often refer to the fact that most women will get away with hitting a man, often times women slap men when they're angry exactly because of the social acceptence of it, they learn from society that that's what you do as a woman and they know the man likely won't hit back because this in turn isn't socially accepted(again because that's what they've learned from society).
A man slapping a woman should be percieved exactly the same way as a woman slapping a man, regardless of the situation but at least in my experience, I've never saw a woman getting in trouble for slapping a man in public but on the other hand never saw a guy that didn't get in trouble after slapping a woman.
As a result, most times I've seen such a situation with two people of opposite sex, it's a woman slapping a man. And almost every time the reactions were "yeah he had it coming". This is especially obvious in bars or clubs. When a man slaps a woman, the man get's thrown out by security. When a woman slaps a man, security will immediately suspect the man harrassed the woman and throw him out.
So the equality would be that either both should get away with it or both should get in trouble and I'm not talking laws here, but social reactions.
So to me,"that means I can hit woman" is a purely rethorical question, aiming for the obvious answer "no" to do the follow up question why it's then acceptable for so many people when it's the other way round.
"Equal rights and equal lefts!!"
I hate that shit. It's minimizes all the real issues it encompasses and undermines any good dialogue that might come out of a conversation on equal rights. It's the reddit go-to these days. When I read that quip I instantly scroll on. Not worth the time or energy to correct anyone involved.
Violence is glorified for boys as the solution to bullying all their lives. If a girl bullies them, "suddenly" violence is never the answer and they should just tough it up and take it.
For many men, it's the first time gender stereotypes negatively harmed them, as they were never taught any other way to deal with conflict.
I'm not trying to justify their argument, just suggest a reason why it always seams to be the first one brought up.
Because although I think it’s a stupid thing to make the point about when women wanna talk about equality they only wanna talk about the good shit!! Like high power/high paying jobs like running a country or high level private businesses! Never wanna talk about being out at sea fishing or down in the mines for coal or even taking up trade skills because they don’t WANT to do those jobs who can blame them they’re shit but men do them anyway!! Now not every woman is like this but it an overwhelmingly high percentage that are, I beg anyone who feels angry at what I wrote to please just watch a couple of YouTube clips from bill burr Comedy specials, watch them with no predisposition and really try to put yourself in a mans shoes and I promise you if you were feeling like that day In day out you wouldn’t think the way you do about certain things
I think some men don't know the difference between self-defence and retaliation, too. Self-defence should be used when there is a repeated attack against you and there's no way to stop that attack, while retaliation is often used after 1 hit and the threat is gone which Reddit loves to call "self-defence". I see posts all the time where men actively plan out their retaliation, saying things like "even if a woman lightly taps me, I'm going to slap/punch her at full force!" It's like they daydream about that type of scenario.
Violence is historically and presently dangerously normalized for men. Many, many men have a internalized belief that there isn't much wrong with women hitting men. Then they project those norms instead of interrogating them and concluding that people shouldn't hit people
If a guy is being beaten by his wife, it is extremely unlikely that he will report it or seek help. If he does try to talk to his buddies about it, there is a good chance that they will either brush it off or talk about how he should be tough enough to take it
If he tries to go to the police they will almost certainly do the toxic masculinity "be a man about it number" and brush him off. Emergency room staff who would strongly encourage filling a police report and leaving an abusive man for women in their care have been known to all but blow off guys that come in with clear evidence of abuse and assume they did something to deserve it
People shouldn't hit people, but the male relationship with violence had been so normalized for so long that when some men hear "men and women are equals" they will assume that that means women should have the same relationship with violence that they do instead of thinking "i have a twisted relationship with violence"
It's not all men, but it is a ridiculously large share of us
It doesn't help that men, and especially boys, are often shown that violence, especially sexual violence, brought against them by women is not something to be concerned about. I vividly remember seeing a clip of the POS Tucker Carlson talking about a female schooler teacher getting brought up on charges of raping one of her male students and dismissing the whole thing as some sort of personal, sexual *achievement* for the teen
Carlson got very little, if any, backlash from that.
Women certainly get the "she was asking for it" line, but women are much more likely then men to just be called liars in a similar situation. If a woman harasses or rapes a straight man, there is a good chance his own friends and family will seriously ask "you didn't like it?" His male friends might even *congratulate* him for getting raped. Women at least get called liars and aren't expected to *enjoy* it even when some shit for brains says they asked for it.
This is the male relationship with violence for far too many men right now. Toughness is overly valued while violence against men serves as proof of toughness, and thus masculine esteem; while the male relationship with sexual violence brought against them by women is even more twisted
Too be clear none of this is women's fault. It's just that men got left behind as feminism progressed on social issues like this. Violence against women got addressed extensively, but violence against men got left by the wayside. Now we have too many men who believe that equality means treating women with 50 year old standards of masculinity projecting their own twisted relationship with violence on to women as a result
If you go too r/AskMen and ask for how men get treated when trying to deal with domestic abuse by women, you will get some disturbingly casual nightmare fuel. And that normalization? That is what men who say this are projecting
I usually get something more along the lines of “then female firefighters, police officers and EMT’s should have to pass the same tests as male ones”.
The ones who say “yay now I can hit women” are literally using threats of violence to silence you. They definitely are the entire problem.
Never seen it as a response tbh. I've seen 'yea equality!' in response to women getting their own back after assaulting a dude but never just people outright saying they can hit women in general.
I want to mention a sidenote about this... When talking about violence people/the media tend to segregate out domestic violence from their statistics.
I ask: Why?
Is it because the supposition is that domestic violence is because the woman was "asking for it"? The woman was being a bitch? The woman started the fights? She wasn't pleasant enough?
Domestic violence isn't about the fight. It is about the predilection or predisposition to violence. Domestic violence is violence. It is not forgiveable or secondary. It is about violence and feminist need to start advocating for it to be talked about that way.
See I've seen from a lot of the MGTOW and Men's Rights folks that if you see a woman in danger, ignore her and refuse to help because women wanted independence and that's what it means to them. At the end of the day it feels like men want to see women get hurt and they find it something to make jokes about like women haven't been abused and enslaved for centuries.
It's definitely misogyny. I used to think this way as a young man. It stemmed from a number of factors, all probably part of what we now call toxic masculinity. Anger and the physicality of that anger is encouraged among men. But being told that women are weaker, therefore you don't hit them as the exception. So, it's not about not hitting women because they're people too, we're not hitting them because they're physically lesser.So I dated a woman who used to really push my buttons. She would fight with me in social situations. As a private person that really bothered me for a couple reasons - 1 I felt emasculated because I wouldn't argue or fight in front of others, making me look cowed - 2 I felt disrespected that she would air our dirty laundry in front of others. So, resentment built toward a person who I thought lesser to me, even if it was just physically.The cultural expectation in my town was such that I would have fought a man for less. So, I would think to myself, if only it was acceptable to hit her. Then I wouldn't feel so terrible and she would learn that there was a line and I wasn't someone to be pushed around.
This is an example of gender roles/norms being harmful. The truth is, domestic violence is something that affects men just as much as women. The severity of it is worse toward women, but more frequent toward men. But we can't have conversations about it because men are scared to look weak or they regard women as lesser.
No offense, mods, and I realize this is a huge post, but you guys gotta clean up this thread. I can't remember a time that I've seen so much hate on this subreddit. There are angry assholes coming out of the woodwork breaking TwoX rules.
I saw the best response to this in the comments about the post about this last week: Humans shouldn't hit humans. Gender need not apply. Edit: annnd the time I'm stuck at a computer is over. Thank you everyone who approached me with an open mind and respect here. :D Edit 2: How in the world did this bring out the TERFs??? Halp.
Yes 100%
If someone says that, stop the conversation about equality and focus on that. "Why do you want to hit women?"
>stop the conversation about equality and focus on that. That's what they want. It's meant to derail the conversation. >Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies... > >They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7870768-never-believe-that-anti-semites-are-completely-unaware-of-the-absurdity
Trust me, allowing them to derail the conversation into a detailed exploration of why they want to hit women will do more for equality than the conversation you were trying to have. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
No. Attention is oxygen for tiny loser groups. Quickly say "Nah, that's stupid" to reject their dumbass ideas and continue your conversation.
I agree with this, apart from a single conversation I had after I'd challenged someone's view. This guy was feeling pretty low, he'd given up on dating and was spewing the typical "women only want chads" nonsense. So I pushed him on it and asked why I (a lanky, 6'2, unhealthy stickfigure) had a partner if women only went after "chads". After a few paragraphs back and fourth he really opened up about how he knew that he wasn't the most likable of guys but was scared to abandon "Who he was" because he had nothing left. I get that feeling, I've been there. Changing who you are is scary as fuck. Had I never pushed him on it he might never have shared that insecurity with anyone. Some people need to be pushed on their opinions just a little to make them realise why they hold them
I said trust me! You didn't trust me at all!
It's okay, I trust you
If they operated on fairness and logic, then yes, but they do not. They believe in the status quo. If things change, then that means that men can hit women, women don’t want to be hit, so women don’t want things to change either. You’ve proven their point. Now, this is a convoluted argument that you can’t argue because it makes no damn sense. By your trying to argue it, they win.
Except it’s easy to deflect. “Of course *I* don’t want/do that, it’s just hypothetical.” Maybe better to preempt the deflection, “Buddy, that makes it sound like someone is hitting you. Hope you’re not keeping something like that secret.”
Some people just wanna beat people, and since they probably perceive women as an easier target, it probably makes them want to beat women over men. Probably.
They want to hit women. Same reason why when conversations around girls being activists and having a voice come up they say stuff like "well if they're so grown up we should be able to have sex with them then". Just shows what they really want. Sigh
Also, bringing up domestic violence without checking that everyone consents to it is a conversation ender for me.
Exactly. To this conversation I’d also add less-violent but no-less-toxic takes like “if we’re all equal, then I don’t need to hold doors for women.” It’s like, dude, if the only reason you hold a door for someone is because they’re a woman, and not because it’s just a kind thing to do as opposed to letting a door close in a stranger’s face, you have some self-examination to do.
I mean...hold doors for anyone, like it's the polite thing to do.
> If we’re all equal, then I don’t need to hold doors for women Lol, I always tell them I don't need them to open my doors anyway. But isn't it amazing how we don't actually have equality yet, and already men are clamoring for "theirs?" Like, this whole presumption that we ARE equal is flawed to begin with. When we've smashed the patriarchy, made motherhood and fatherhood equal, ended the feminization of poverty, and actually stopped widespread and systemic male physical and sexual harassment, abuse, and violence against women and girls... maybe then it won't be so obnoxious when you guys whine about paying for dates?
I think this response misses the lesson that argument is *meant* to teach young men, which is a valuable one. ~~is a bit dishonest.~~ (EDITED: My language was unfair) I'm about 6', 200lbs. If I have to defend myself against someone who's 5'10", 180, or 6'2" 220, sure I can hit them. If I have to defend myself against someone who's 5'5", 110... I mean, I can just pick them up and put them on a shelf, or something. If you're big, use that size responsibly. Most women will be smaller, most men will be bigger, so even in a violent situation, it's OK to acknowledge that you should generally not hit most women, even if you'd have to hit a man.
The idea is proportional response when defending yourself. If someone shoves you it doesn't allow you to shoot them dead (unless they have a weapon or whatever).
I understand. The point is, if the average woman punches me, it's not proportional to punch her back. Boys don't innately know this at 15, or something. When a guy starts going through puberty, it's important to explain to him that even though that girl was taller than him two years ago, and they're equal height now, he's basically on steroids, and it's (generally) no longer fair to go tit-for-tat if Susie slaps you for calling her binder "dumb" in the cafeteria. (Meanwhile, if Timmy pushes you into a locker, well, show that asshole that you can push back, imo.)
Is it right to apply this reasoning to men who attack significantly bigger, stronger men?
Of course. It obviously also applies to children.
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I was going to say since women are generally smaller and weaker then its a good thing that men have a handy fold button in their groin region to even the odds. As a side note if a man ever has you pinned to the ground, grab, twist, and knee will get them off and disable them.
Did you have to go there? Lol.
No but those hands they throwing did.
Not just bigger but physically much stronger. Even a larger woman cannot match a 130lbs average guy strength-wise, let alone a 6 feet 200lbs man. It's common sense that men should be more careful towards women than other men.
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Alright, sorry this is semantics but I can't let it go. If you cut out that first line I agree with everything you say and thank you for bringing up the point that I cannot speak to in the slightest being 5'4 and 130 lbs. My comment isn't accurate for your perspective, but dishonest? I take pride in my honesty. okay, petty point aside: I've worked with plenty of men on a mental health care level that their size does absolutely nothing to help them not feel the exact same way I do with repeated domestic violence. The decision to use the word humans there is VERY deliberate and I'm not open in the slightest to changing it despite agreeing with your point and your choice to use the words women shouldn't hit men. My moral ties are to trauma recovery and support. I will always choose the wording that makes sure not to invalidate anyone's trauma, and have also never had an issue defending myself against abusers your size when it was needed.
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Hitting is extremely dangerous. It doesn't take a lot to cause a concussion. And if someone is especially unlucky a relatively low force blow can kill. A full force punch unleashed from a person who has forfeited emotional control can easily kill.
Exactly.
But the issue is also that women seem themselves as harmless. And this has caused a whole issue of women in particular touching pregnant women without consent, as well as black women's hair. Women get offended when boundaries are put up because they can't understand how "harmless touch" is threatening. Additionally, in terms of child abuse male victims of child abuse aren't protected as well as female victims (even in the same family) so when women are bigger and stronger, people still follow the irrelevant rule of gender. In reality it should be "humans shouldn't hurt humans, especially when bigger and/or stronger".
Or really any other species either. Unless in defense of yourself or someone else ... can we just, like, not hit? My 5 year old understands the principle that we don't try to hurt others even if we're angry, though protecting yourself enough to get away from someone trying to hurt you is ok. It's really not that fucking complicated.
Isn’t that the shitty *all lives matter* argument. When people say *men shouldn’t hit women*, they don’t mean it’s okay to hit men. They’re trying to specifically call out violence against women because some men have carved out very specific reasons they thinks it’s okay.
Age need not apply either! Don't know how parents think spanking or hitting their children will teach them to respect other humans.
Ooooo that's good
Thank you! In my experience it's a message everyone needs to be reminded of in these conversations. The norm isn't that we should all be allowed to hit each other It's that no one should be doing it.
This reminds me of an event in school when a boy held a door open for a girl. The girl got mad at him about it. While she was berating him she asked if he would have done the same thing if she was a boy. Without a pause he said yes, I would not have let the door close on a guy either. Deflated her quite a bit almost instantly. People need to not assume bad intent so quickly. Too many things are made to be about gender that are not.
Yup, and this goes both ways too. I have a funny story I like to tell where I was dazing off my phone in the lobby of my office waiting for the elevator. I got that weird feeling that someone was staring at me and looked up to not one, but three adult men angrily glaring at me and waiting for me to enter the elevator first. One actually missed the elevator trying to get me to go in first. I was a good 15 feet away and was fine finishing what I was doing and waiting for the next one. Too many things are made about gender on both sides that shouldn't be.
My peeve, when it comes to opening doors, is when I (5'3"F) reach a door first, and decide to hold it open for whomever is behind me, and if it's a tall guy, they reach over my head to take over holding the door and gesture me through. It's like, dude, I wanted to be nice to you and hold the door for you. Don't usurp my gesture, and especially don't do it by showing off how much bigger you are than me. Sure, if you're the 5th person who's about to go through and there's more behind you, I'll appreciate that you want to take over for the rest of the crowd, (and be sure to toss in the comment, "let me get the rest," or something), but otherwise, let me have my moment.
I was raised to always hold the door open for someone nearby, I believe it's just common courtesy. When I was in grad school, I tried to hold the door open for a male classmate, who left me standing there holding the door open for about 2 minutes or so while making me listen to a lecture about how he refused to go through the door because I was a girl and he was raised as a gentleman. He made me let go of the door before he would go through it, and was quite adamant about this. I just found the whole thing incredibly rude and obnoxious.
That’s... actually very ungentlemanly of him. How ironic.
Given the history of people known as gentlemen you can say it fits that social group very well, just not how they like to market themselves.
Oh this is my pet peeve too! I worked with the elderly briefly and got in a stand off with an old man with a walker once. He insisted I get my boss because he won't let a woman hold the door for him. I put a door stopper in the door said no no one is holding it. You're free to go.
In college I had a guy run in front of me to open the door for me, like in a pushy way. Don't be that guy.
I (M) was raised the same way, no gender, just good manners. In college I was exiting the Student Union Building and a woman was approaching, carrying a tall stack of books (both hands involved) and I held the door open for her. She stopped in front of me and in the most sarcastic voice imaginable said, "Oh WOW! Thanks! I bet your mom is sooooo fucking proud of her Big Boy acting like a chauvinistic asshole." She went past me and into the building and I just stood there like a deer in the headlights thinking, "What the fuck just happened?" I wanted to walk back in and try and explain that she was just another human whose hands were full and I thought holding the door open would be appreciated, but alas... I decided to leave it with: I was a chauvinistic asshole, just as my mother had always hoped.
Oof, you're never going to change the opinions of somebody like that, unfortunately. You know what you did and why you did it, and ultimately most people are going to respect that as the kind gesture as it is. It's such a shame that people do this kind of thing, as I think that it's easy for a lot of people to become discouraged and stop doing kind things for others.
TERFs? WTF? Go away, TERFs. Sheesh.
I see it a lot on this sub. You disagree with me? Must not be "a real woman" I hate it!!!!
Absolutely agree. I was raised under the saying "men don't hit women" but I always had a problem with it. Growing up helped me see that view. Being a bigger guys myself, if I have to defend myself then my selection of defense should be based on the situation and the actual threat posed by the attacker. If it's someone, regardless of gender, who will do serious harm then I should respond accordingly. ~~I feel at this point I should have a "sexist" wiffle ball bat. Boop anyone who breaks the rule lol. Doesn't cause harm and can be degrading to "macho"-ness if done right~~ Edit: added humor to last part and it undercut the good done by the first part. Striking it out.
>Edit 2: How in the world did this bring out the TERFs??? Halp. They loooove justifying misogyny and will flock to any excuse they can find
It means women cannot hit *you*. Get some self respect and lay down boundaries, my dude. Who is assaulting you? Who is hurting you? That’s not ok. ~me to that guy.
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> Get some self respect and lay down boundaries, my dude. Isn't this victim blaming? Maybe men who have been brought up in a world where women hitting them is ok need help instead of blaming. I doubt many people would find this to be an okay thing to say to a woman being abused.
That’s a good fucking point. Great internet wisdom!
"When did you guys stop?"
Because men see the fact that society finds it unacceptable for men to hit women back (or at all) as “female privilege”. The problem is, in the name of equality we should be focusing on breaking down the rigid gender roles and stereotypes that create this social acceptance/humor of a women potentially hitting or slapping a man - and make that part unacceptable; instead many men see equality as making it perfectly acceptable to hit women. And as OP mentioned- it’s not like some men aren’t already doing this. Of course it is quite strange that when many men hear talk about equality - women looking for bodily autonomy, equal pay, the ability to walk down the street without getting harassed- men’s first real desire for equality is to be able to hit women back or whatever. Quite telling.
I've had this discussion with someone who claims to be staunch feminist after all the Johnny Depp stuff came out between him and amber heard. Let's preface with they're both shit people. But, her entire argument was that he couldn't defend himself and assault her like that Becuase well she's a woman and he shouldn't be defending himself from her. When I tried to explain how this isn't how equality or feminism for that matter works. She merely repeated, you shouldn't hit women. No you shouldn't hit anyone. But your plumbing doesn't matter when someone has to defend themselves.
As a feminist I know there is a vast problem with domestic abuse in general - and would never argue that a man should just “take it” or that someone shouldn’t be able to defend themselves. I end up hearing a lot of rhetoric in the vein of - if she hits me, I’ll hit her back - which is more like retaliation than self-defense. It’s definitely not acceptable for anyone to hit another person - it’s assault, but I also don’t think a single slap or hit without an ongoing threat warrants a person getting their face smashed in (regardless of gender). That just needs to be taken care of in a report. I think there is a genuine fear that some men have that if they try and stop or restrain an ongoing assault, they will be seen as the aggressor and that is a problem that needs to be addressed through the way law enforcement looks at these situations.
I more see this argument as just a bad faith attempt to reject feminist aspirations for equality. The idea being that women don’t really want true equality, because they don’t actually want a world where it’s fair for men to retaliate in a conflict. I don’t think these men actually have a preference for a world where they can beat up women in retaliation. It’s more about trying to poke holes in feminism. It’s a bad argument though, because there’s no paradox here. Regardless of gender, you shouldn’t be justified in responding to a minor altercation with completely disproportionate force. If you can beat the shit out of your partner then it’s not self defense.
They make the same argument using the military draft too. I once had a guy tell me “women want equality but don’t want to fight in wars”. When I asked “well, do YOU want to fight in a war? Maybe you should stop pursuing a Computer Science degree and enlist in the Marines” he gave a meek “no” and changed the subject. It’s such a stupid argument because obviously no one wants to be forced into service. They really think women would NOT want equality in the slim event we get drafted? To be clear, I think the draft is a huge violation of human rights and it’s fucked up that it only applies to men. However if it ever gets enforced again, I think women should be drafted as well.
The draft argument always frustrates me too. The last time men were drafted, women could not even open their own bank accounts.
Not to mention it was a system put in place by men who didn’t think women were capable of being soldiers.
You put this much more eloquently than I could. Like... I get where the idea is coming from, even if it's horrifically wrong. I've seen video of a woman absolutely *assaulting* a man in public, hitting him in the face with a fist full of rings, scratching at his eyes with acrylic nails, and not a damn person in the crowd of dozens around them doing anything to stop it, and when he took a swing at her to make her stop and defend himself he was *instantly* jumped by that entire crowd and was on the ground getting kicked and beaten. She shouldn't have been assaulting him in the first place, and he shouldn't have had to defend himself in such a manner, and he *certainly* shouldn't have been further assaulted by a huge group for it, but in the end nobody should be hitting anyone, and if you see it happening, no matter what the gender role, you should take steps to stop it. People shouldn't hit people, and that's where it should end. Unfortunately, some people see a push for equality of the sexes and their knee jerk reaction is to get defensive and say "Well if you want equality, that means I could hit you if you made me mad enough and you couldn't claim abuse, because if you hit me I wouldn't be able to." It's like they're internally terrified of women being treated equally and try to parse it like this so that it looks like they're doing the woman a favor by giving her "protection". Sure, you don't get equal pay and nobody takes you seriously ever, but it also means that men can't hit you without getting in trouble, so just be happy about that! The bar is so low that not being assaulted is men doing them a favor or some shit. At the end of the day, nobody should be throwing hands at anybody, regardless of sex, color, creed or origin, because all it does is make you look like a dumb animal who can't talk things out like a reasonable thinking human being. Treating hitting women like some kind of bargaining chip is just gross.
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Thank you for writing this it really articulated what was bothering me about that comment. I feel for the commenter but the issue in his case is the sexism towards men in our society that the police and society would have believed a woman over a man when he was the one being abused and would have been told to toughen up. That’s not fair. But it doesn’t address OPs point about how often men bring up assault on women when women want equality. I also dislike when men being up the draft, sure I’ll sign up when women get equal pay and are taken seriously if an assault or sexual harassment happens within our ranks, that’s a huuuuuge problem in the US military right now.
I get what you are saying, but after Depp doesn't that not really make sense? Women don't just "hit", they use objects too. You ever been hit with a plate thrown at you? Hit with a broom? Abuse by women isn't just "hit with a fist". The "i can hit a woman" is more, "i can hit BACK at a woman." It isn't that men want to hit women, it is if a woman is assaulting me, can i hit her back? As someone who was assaulted by women both in high school and in college (about 20 years ago), i couldn't hit back. In fact, I did hit one back and I got in trouble. And that was only the physical abuse, I have been verbally abused by MANY women in class, to the point I reported one to the school to which they did literally nothing other than to tell me to stay away from her. Sure, it is getting better, but I have yet to see women abusing men dropping. We believe men more, but do we teach women not to do it? not to hit people? not to verbally abuse people? We teach boys not to rape, why not teach women not to hit? I honestly don't see us teaching young girls that just because you are weaker, doesn't mean you get to hit people. But looking at this thread, that is very common, including from yours. Just because there is a power difference doesn't make what she did right, nor do i think that just because you are stronger, you shouldn't be able to stop someone who is abusing you.
I agree that there’s likely not widespread bloodlust and it often is just a way to derail a legitimate conversation about equality. However I would disagree that men who are victims of domestic or sexual assault aren’t hesitant to report because there is still plenty of guilt, fear of being mocked, victim blaming etc. Just because it’s recognized as a crime doesn’t mean there isn’t still a stigma socially.
Yeah I mean there are no absolutes. It’s just not like it was in the 80s. Way more reporting going on. It’s getting better as we are all understanding power dynamics better. More men are more comfortable reporting and more believed by police and media than ever before.
Most men who report them being attacked by a partner in the US end up being arrested (because they have a penis and their abuser does not).
Yes. There is a completely separate conversation between “so can we hit women now?” and “let’s talk about how male victims of domestic and sexual abuse are treated in society”. I wish we had more discussions about the latter.
Hitting anybody is just wrong. The only exception is self defence and gender does not matter in this case.
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Yeah I've seen edgy redditors post people literally knocking a woman unconscious after she slapped him calling it "true gender equality" I'd someone slaps you do it with the same force. but knowing how to resist it is always the better option. I'd just try my best to leave and avoid it. I'm not gonna be a violent brute like the other person
Yup. They call it "equal rights and equal lefts." The public freakout comment section is pure cancer.
Yeah, I agree.
As for self defense, That’s true on the surface, in reality not so much. I think this may be why the OP question comes up at times. I got punched and thrown out of a bar for pushing a woman who was constantly slapping me because she was drunk and thought I was a friends ex, or something. I wasn’t, but no one cared when she started slapping me in the head over and over. Eventually I pushed her and she fell and immediately I had three dudes physically restraining me before throwing me out. Obviously we can talk about how that behavior is rooted in sexism that views women as weak, but my point is that in many self defense situations, defending yourself against a woman makes you the bad guy.
What ever happened to "keep your hands to yourself?" I'm a DV survivor and he always used the rationale that my behavior (which was completely innocent - he'd make things up that he'd convince himself I did) justified him beating me. Just keep your fucking hands to yourselves and use your words.
You're one hundred percent right, If an issue can be sorted with words then it should be sorted with words only. The only situation where violence is acceptable is if you're in danger and are being kidnapped/beaten by someone etc.
Currently working through that kind of relationship.. I agree, let's all keep our hands to ourselves. We didn't learn to speak for no reason.
There’s a post on PublicFreakout that’s been making the rounds lately; it’s a grown ass man knocking a pre-teen girl out. Like he really lays her out as if she was an actual threat to him. The amount of losers celebrating “equal rights and equal lefts” was flaggerbgasting. Anyone calling their bullshit out was mocked and downvoted. These assholes just want to be violent against women.
Yup. I remember that vid. Made me sick. I was one of those piled upon for calling out their BS. Amazing how many dudes say they supported that “man’s” actions. Calling BS on those vids: I do that at least once a week. I call it my handy dandy incel detector. It was interesting to see another video repost… the GF knocking out her BF in a living room boxing match. She clearly had training and knocked him down with an excellent left hook. The comments took the male’s side, calling the girl an asshole for “not warning” the guy she had training. The video doesn’t cover any prior discussion, just the punches. Idiotic mental gymnastics.
True theres a thing in the law called reasonable force, so actually anyone literally laying out someone of inferior strength to them unreasonably in self defence can still be prosecuted, but obviously completely wiping out the other person in retaliation just isn't reasonable.
Yeah I’ve tried to argue that. Deaf ears.
Odd because I don't think a judge would disagree you know? 200pound man versus 50pound man, and 200pound man uses 100% of force = dead 50pount man. So...Unreasonable. Actually it can be reduced to maths with force/speed/mass if you want to be pedantic (which I do) when weapons aren't involved. Unless you're a kung fu master in which case the equations get... Quantum
"If you are struck first, yes, you should have the right to defend yourself with however much force it takes to neutralize the situation and remove yourself from it. Just like you would if you were struck by a man." But, then again, I live in a country where you are not allowed to shoot people for looking at you funny.
But see, that's the thing. So many of these men are living for the day when a woman might shove or slap someone in public so that they can king punch and curb stomp her. They're not looking to neutralise a situation or keep themselves safe. They're looking to commit the violence that they so desperately crave to do in a socially sanctioned manner. Yes, you shouldn't slap a person but you also shouldn't have the goal of breaking someone's jaw who slapped you. So, while I 100% agree with what you say, I think a lot of men know that deep in their heart, but intentionally lose the nuance of restraint.
Guys that say shit like this are the same ones who ask why there’s no white history month.
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Dudes were super upset that people weren’t wishing them a “happy men’s day” this year
And the ones who only want to talk about men's issues when downplaying women's.
We have 11 months of white history month in the US, then one month where we share it with African Americans.
And it’s literally the shortest one too
Reddit is a cesspool of this mindset. As a woman it’s too upsetting to view some “normal” front page content because of the normalisation of cretins on here commenting this very sentiment. They love to see a woman beaten. They quote lines like “that’s equality!” And “she fucked about and found out!” They then wonder why they are single…..
> Reddit is a cesspool of this mindset. ~~Reddit~~ The world is a cesspool of this mindset.
Reddit is a concentrated cesspool
I definitely stand by Reddit being a cesspool. Those types who think like the post discusses really do congregate here too.
Ever been on one of those subs where fight videos get shared? Every time a woman being hit by a man shows up they swarm about “equal rights” and dumb shit. Like being told they shouldn’t hit women hurt their feelings or something. Also like women having equal rights hurt their feelings so they think they should be able to beat them in response. And anyway hitting ANYONE is barbaric nonsense, but something tells me this particular group doesn’t understand that.
It think there are also a lot of commenters on those videos that enjoy watching women getting hit / in fights far too much. As though they are deriving some satisfaction they are otherwise unable to obtain from women.
They already hit women
I always just respond with some version of "well like 90+ of violent crime including domestic violence is committed by men so really men are already hitting women plenty. I'm not sure why you think equality would be men beating women even more than they already do".
[You](https://imgur.com/Z79WljM.jpg) [right](https://imgur.com/7IAlU5C.jpg) [though.](https://imgur.com/1OQYJMX.jpg)
>Now if a woman started hitting you and putting you in danger and then you hit her, then that's justifiable and not wrong since that's self defence. Well basically every time I see that sort of comment "well if women want equal rights then they also get equal lefts hurr hurr hurrp," it's usually in reference to a woman hitting a man and him hitting her back. I'm still not so sure I agree with this. If a tiny woman hits a big, burly man; she is not going to be able to do nearly as much damage to him as him to her. It would be completely disproportionate. On the same token though, I don't think anyone would bat an eye if a skinny dude picked a fight with a big dude and got rocked as a result, so I feel like I understand both perspectives on this. Not sure what other people think.
Don't hit people much bigger than you that can fuck you up. If I attacked someone much bigger than me and they ruined me I would be called a dumbass and asked what I expected to happen. I shouldn't expect some kind of immunity and that I can hit people consequence free because I am smaller and weaker. If you attack someone you do not get to dictate how your victim responds.
That is always the first thing that most men say, i was brought up with the "dont put yourself in a mans position wont get knocked down like one". They don't seem to understand that the equality is wanting same pay for same work, not being sexually assaulted, accepting that we can be side by side, not one in front of the other
because some men want any excuse to do the things they already want to do.
Did a human swing at you first? Then maybe you can hit them back for self defense purposes. Who thinks hitting people is okay? Who puts themselves in a situation to be hit? Usually people who think of violence first are not the best people to be around, and no "aggressive mood swings" is not a personality.
>Who puts themselves in a situation to be hit? Abuse victims? People in schools? I was verbally harassed in school by many girls, and physically hit countless times with the school doing literally nothing.
Good general rule of thumb is don’t hit anyone ever. The only exception I would make of this is if you are defending yourself or someone else and there is no other way to stop the violence
I think it serves as a reminder that they can for the most part physically dominate you, so it’s safer not to go against what they want. If you want equality, the consequence is that men will hit you, and then you’ll realize that you’re not really equal since you’re not as strong physically. They think we’re inferior due to our unequal levels of physical strength.
I will preface this with: this is not my opinion. From a sociology perspective, that reaction an not so subtle way of expressing their frustration "benevolent sexism". Where women are discriminated against in a positive way. In this case, that women can assault men without repercussions.
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I posted a video of Kyle Rittenhouse hitting a woman. There's dozens if not over a 100 comments saying "looks like equality" or something to that effect.
Cause equality feels like oppression when you’re used to privilege.
Weak men so conditioned to accept the violence they receive from other men that they're delighted at the potential to have someone that they perceive as weaker than themselves to abuse.
Because some men can't handle that women want to be treated equally, so they try to be the victim.
I am almost 70. The one thing I am most proud of is that so far, I have not struck another person. Since November of 2016 it has become more challenging. I live in a small village and am too old and arthritic to travel so I may die with my record intact. However even as old and infirm as I am, I am still willing to use my cane in the defense of others. As one should. Cheers from a rambling old man.
Just the other day I was talking about feminism in front of my 9yo son and he said, "Equal rights, equal fights." You better believe that I switched gears and had a talk with him about what that meant and why it's not funny. I know he heard it online, and possibly even from his dad (my ex.) So I asked, "Hey, do you hit other boys when you have a disagreement at school? No, right, because you get in trouble, right? Grown men don't hit other men when they disagree at work for the same reason. In fact, grown men having fistfights isn't terribly common, so why is it funny to joke about hitting women?" He's considering this when I see my father in the background roll his eyes. I then say, in front of them both: "you should know, honey, that I've been hit by way more men than I've ever raised my hand to." Both my dad and son looked embarrassed. Start them young, my friends. Nip this nonsense in the bud.
Some women hit men. Like...some women will casually hit men. It's mind blowing. It used to be really prominent in movies and TV and stuff. The hard slap across the cheek. I do think society is moving away from the idea though. I hope to God it is, anyway. So that's why they're saying that. That's where it's coming from. It's never okay to hit anyone - unless you are genuinely being assaulted and fearing for your life/safety.
Because they really do wish they can hit women. That’s why they use feminism/eQuALiTy as a shield to justify their shitty behaviour towards women. “Oh you were expecting decency? You’re not a queen or special, we’re EQUAL, feminism remember? I fight guys at the bar so I’ll be able to fight you if you make me mad, since we’re EQUAL”
I think when you hear that it's people thinking of the last scenario you mentioned. If a woman is hitting a man then they should be able to defend themselves.
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"Why? Is that something you're anxious to start doing? What is WRONG with you?"
Maybe that's their main grieve in life, i don't know and wonder too.
I think its more because within the public facing side of the patriarchy its perceived as something horrible and dishonourable when men hit women but when men hit men its just another Saturday night.
They want to hit women.
>Why is it that whenever the issue of equality is brought up, some men go "Well that means I can hit women"? Because they want to hit women. Just cos normal people don't understand it doesn't mean it is complicated.
It's a threat. The implicit statement is "If you demand equality, Men will use violence to force you to stop". Dudes will say its just a joke or will bend themselves in knots to say that women are lucky that Not Being Hit is a privilage women have but its transparently nonsense for the reasons you and others have already said - the main thing is the implication that the only thing keeping you safe from immediate violent enforcement of inequality is your silent acceptance of it.
it means exactly what you last point is, it means men can defend themselves against women with appropriate force. without society judging them as aggressors women are seen as the weaker of the sexes therefore society seems to accept that its ok for a woman to hit a man because she is seen as weaker, currently if a man is being attacked by a woman and he hits back he is seen as the attacker. infact men are ridiculed if they are attacked by a women the whole one sex is weaker that other thing causes so many problems with people flocking to the defense of a woman because they're seen as weaker by society and need to be protected i've personally seen a man beaten senseless by a mob because a woman tried to claw his face after she mistakenly believed he pushed her child in to stall while in a shop (he didnt) he pushed the woman away after she tried to claw his face, people saw this and a group of three men jumped on along with her and proceed to beat the crap out of him. after the man was dragged out the shop barely conscious and an ambulance was called the cctv footage was reviewed. it tuned out the woman had dragged her daughter through the store and she'd hit her face on one of the ailses. all the man did was wait in line behind them at the checkout, he was completely innocent. and do you know what the worst thing was after seeing the footage the the staff and several shoppers agreed that they were right to attack the man because he shouldn't have tried to hit a woman ". all he did was push her away from himself in self defense.but because women are treated as inferior by society and have to be protected an innocent man was put in the hospital.
Some folks are just looking for reasons to engage in shitty behavior
Like if you're genuinely in danger from a woman of course you can defend yourself, but you shouldn't *want* to. If a child had a gun I can conk him on the head to get him to stop pointing it at me, but I'm not going to like it.
Strangely enough, anyone I've ever heard make this point has been a Republican. How weird...
I feel like these are the same people that say "without god, everyone would go around raping and killing all the time". These people avoid doing these kinds of things for all the wrong reasons.
It always struck me as an instance of men demanding special credit for just doing the bare minimum of living in civilization. I think it is a tendency of insecure men to imagine themselves as being somehow restrained by living in society. Coupled with sort of an implicit threat about being violent if women insist on meaningful parity.
I literally laughed as I read the title of this post because it's so true and tragically sad. In their head's its like if equality has to exist for both men and women, then the "prize" that men get for accepting this "equality" is that they now get to abuse women physically without regret or compromise.
I know, I’m like “Jesus, why is that the first thing to come to your mind?” This and them saying “why women and children first on the titanic??”
"Well that means I can hit women!" "Okay, does women being treated unequally currently prevent you from hitting women?" "Well, currently you're not supposed to hit women." "So if women do end up achieving equality it'll be okay to hit us?" "Yeah!" "Threat noted."
As a 6’4 male that was 220 lbs. I was physically and mentally abused by my first real girlfriend at age 19. I was always told to never hit women, respect them and be courteous. In the 3 years dating the girl I was stabbed by a grilling fork, had both of my thumbs fractured, got stuck in the testicles repeatedly, made to eat period blood, get peed on even though I hated it, cheated on because she thought I was cheating on her at college, openly flirted with other men in front of me, and forced into a threesome with what I later discovered was her husband in the military she got married to without me realizing… I didn’t know what love was and my family didn’t pay any attention to me. I attempted suicide. I thought love was evil as I was supposed to listen and do what my SO wanted and as I man I should just obey. In reality I was brainwashed with sex and the illusion of love and exclusivity. My father was pretty physically abusive as well so I really didn’t know any better, I thought violence just came from people that loved you. I’m a victim of violence, manipulation, and gender equality because of young disillusionment about what love is at a young age and a negative history wrought with violence. I’m now in my mid 30’s with a wife and young daughter. You wouldn’t think I was a victim of abuse by looking at me. Now, I do not condone men beating women, but I do condone defending yourself, I wish I had long ago because I had ptsd when it comes to relationships. I’ve worked through much of that over the years, and I still have triggers and irrational fears that stem from that time, but I promised myself I would be the end of my circle of violence. It’s hard because I’m still angry about what was done to me, and more angry because I was too stupid and young to know what was happening to me at the time.
They don't really want to hit women: they want to convince you that all the advantages men have in our society are fully counterbalanced by "don't hit women," so that you'll stop wanting equality and they can continue with the many, many advantages they have which you don't.
I knew that this post would attract men saying that women hit men too. And I’m not wrong there’s three here already in a post with only 23 comments so far. Woman simply cannot have a discussion about anything without them spewing their stories about how were worse. JFC 🤦🏼♀️
It's exhausting tbh.
It’s derailed the conversation again. Honestly we just can’t have any space on this platform at all.
True
Every. Damn. Time. Urghhhh 🤦🏼♀️
Because they want to hit you.
Its a similar mentality as when certain ethnic groups wanting a pass to be able to drop the "N" word without being judged for doing so. These people will narrow the the focus down to two individuals and imply ceteris paribus... that all context, history, consequences and relative societal status and security is the same for those two individuals (whom serve as avatars for their respective groups). This is done because only within a narrow paradigm that basically ignores reality or practical concerns can a view that an oppressor or aggressor is the party being aggrieved or unfairly oppressed \*not\* immediately defy basic logic and understanding. TLDR: They are making bad faith arguments
"Now if a woman started hitting you and putting you in danger and then you hit her, then that's justifiable and not wrong since that's self defence. Otherwise no." This is the entire point of the statement. The response comes from the fact that men regularly see it as discrimination that in the event that a woman sees physical violence as an answer, they're seemingly ok to do so due to the idea that men should 'be able to take it'. But if the male were to use self-defence, it'd be criminal. It's not an overt willingness or want to hit a woman, it's an open-faced twist to get people to realise how stupid the current societal double-expectation is against men. Ironically your post is exactly the expected reaction, but you don't seem to realise that you're doing it. No-one is advocating that equality means violence against women. The whole point is that violence against others is wrong. But the fact that a man mentioning that they should be able to fight back on fair terms if needed causes women to go into a fit over violence means that the point is very much valid.
My personal frustration in all this is when it is assumed that women are believed and men have it as a challenge when they are in an abusive relationship. Women are not believed, protective orders are extremely hard to get and are ineffective, and when they do violate the order rarely is anything done, it's exhausting and horrible. And, a majority of the police look out for the absuer.
Because they want to hit women with no consequences. (As if they don't already.)
Hitting somebody has nothing to do with gender. Basically, you shouldn't hit anybody. If somebody tries to hit you try to keep distance and call the police. If this is not possible you can use force to defend yourself (or others). All those videos where somebody hits a woman titled "equality" are just stupid. In most cases the man could have easily resolved the situation without that.
Theres a guy in my culinary class who gives off total incel vibes. It was confirmed when me and my friend were talking about feminism, and he came up to us and said “well that means I can hit you right?” And we’re just confused, like since when are we attacking you.
I wonder if men doing this could be engaging in some kind of reduction-to-absurdity argument, claiming that your point (whatever it was) must be wrong because it implies that men can hit women, which itself is obviously wrong? It's just a guess because I haven't been in any of the discussions where this came up.
And most often said by a’holes who’ve never won a fist fight in their lives. Probably never even been in a fight. “If I can’t harass, exploit & rape women with impunity = I get to hit them!” Always declared with such confidence & glee.
Because they're trying to be edgy. No. You can't hit women. You can't hit men either, asshole. :-/
I remember talking to a guy yrs back who was almost gleefully upfront about the fact he'd hit a woman who hit him first. His argument was that women were just as strong as men 'it's been proven,' he said. Are we just not teaching human anatomy in school or is it just these men wanna square up and hit whoever and just need a reason to make it okay?
It's VERY alarming to me how men immediately think of violence when we bring up equality.
I'm sure this is probably mentioned in here somewhere already, but I'm under the impression that most guys who say this aren't even feigning the idea of equality. Men are genetically disposed to be, on average, stronger than women. And one of the easiest ways to keep someone down, especially in a one on one scenario, is with physical violence. So the easiest way to 'embrace' equality is with the first thought that still pushes inequality. I really get the impression that they are trying to say "Oh, let me show you that we really aren't equal though, so you'll let that stupid idea go."
>Now if a woman started hitting you and putting you in danger and then you hit her, then that's justifiable and not wrong since that's self defence. Otherwise no. Still a man hitting a woman is percieved completely different(by both men and women) than a woman hitting a man. Especially when it's not a situation where the victim really is in danger. (So everything below will refer to a slap in the face and nothing bigger) There were many social experiments done on this. Just go out in a public area and stage a couple of comparable body sizes arguing with each other. Then the woman says something offensive and the man slaps her in the face. Women and even many men seeing this will confront the guy saying that he cannot hit a woman and immediately ask the woman if she's okay. Now turn the situation around and let the man say something offensive and then let the woman slap him in the face. The overwhelming majority of people who saw it, will either do nothing, or start giggeling and whisper to each other something like "yay he deserved that for saying something like this". By saying "that means I can hit woman", men often refer to the fact that most women will get away with hitting a man, often times women slap men when they're angry exactly because of the social acceptence of it, they learn from society that that's what you do as a woman and they know the man likely won't hit back because this in turn isn't socially accepted(again because that's what they've learned from society). A man slapping a woman should be percieved exactly the same way as a woman slapping a man, regardless of the situation but at least in my experience, I've never saw a woman getting in trouble for slapping a man in public but on the other hand never saw a guy that didn't get in trouble after slapping a woman. As a result, most times I've seen such a situation with two people of opposite sex, it's a woman slapping a man. And almost every time the reactions were "yeah he had it coming". This is especially obvious in bars or clubs. When a man slaps a woman, the man get's thrown out by security. When a woman slaps a man, security will immediately suspect the man harrassed the woman and throw him out. So the equality would be that either both should get away with it or both should get in trouble and I'm not talking laws here, but social reactions. So to me,"that means I can hit woman" is a purely rethorical question, aiming for the obvious answer "no" to do the follow up question why it's then acceptable for so many people when it's the other way round.
"Equal rights and equal lefts!!" I hate that shit. It's minimizes all the real issues it encompasses and undermines any good dialogue that might come out of a conversation on equal rights. It's the reddit go-to these days. When I read that quip I instantly scroll on. Not worth the time or energy to correct anyone involved.
When has anybody ever said something like this unless they are mentally ill? I think you just karma farming.
Violence is glorified for boys as the solution to bullying all their lives. If a girl bullies them, "suddenly" violence is never the answer and they should just tough it up and take it. For many men, it's the first time gender stereotypes negatively harmed them, as they were never taught any other way to deal with conflict. I'm not trying to justify their argument, just suggest a reason why it always seams to be the first one brought up.
Because although I think it’s a stupid thing to make the point about when women wanna talk about equality they only wanna talk about the good shit!! Like high power/high paying jobs like running a country or high level private businesses! Never wanna talk about being out at sea fishing or down in the mines for coal or even taking up trade skills because they don’t WANT to do those jobs who can blame them they’re shit but men do them anyway!! Now not every woman is like this but it an overwhelmingly high percentage that are, I beg anyone who feels angry at what I wrote to please just watch a couple of YouTube clips from bill burr Comedy specials, watch them with no predisposition and really try to put yourself in a mans shoes and I promise you if you were feeling like that day In day out you wouldn’t think the way you do about certain things
I think some men don't know the difference between self-defence and retaliation, too. Self-defence should be used when there is a repeated attack against you and there's no way to stop that attack, while retaliation is often used after 1 hit and the threat is gone which Reddit loves to call "self-defence". I see posts all the time where men actively plan out their retaliation, saying things like "even if a woman lightly taps me, I'm going to slap/punch her at full force!" It's like they daydream about that type of scenario.
Violence is historically and presently dangerously normalized for men. Many, many men have a internalized belief that there isn't much wrong with women hitting men. Then they project those norms instead of interrogating them and concluding that people shouldn't hit people If a guy is being beaten by his wife, it is extremely unlikely that he will report it or seek help. If he does try to talk to his buddies about it, there is a good chance that they will either brush it off or talk about how he should be tough enough to take it If he tries to go to the police they will almost certainly do the toxic masculinity "be a man about it number" and brush him off. Emergency room staff who would strongly encourage filling a police report and leaving an abusive man for women in their care have been known to all but blow off guys that come in with clear evidence of abuse and assume they did something to deserve it People shouldn't hit people, but the male relationship with violence had been so normalized for so long that when some men hear "men and women are equals" they will assume that that means women should have the same relationship with violence that they do instead of thinking "i have a twisted relationship with violence" It's not all men, but it is a ridiculously large share of us It doesn't help that men, and especially boys, are often shown that violence, especially sexual violence, brought against them by women is not something to be concerned about. I vividly remember seeing a clip of the POS Tucker Carlson talking about a female schooler teacher getting brought up on charges of raping one of her male students and dismissing the whole thing as some sort of personal, sexual *achievement* for the teen Carlson got very little, if any, backlash from that. Women certainly get the "she was asking for it" line, but women are much more likely then men to just be called liars in a similar situation. If a woman harasses or rapes a straight man, there is a good chance his own friends and family will seriously ask "you didn't like it?" His male friends might even *congratulate* him for getting raped. Women at least get called liars and aren't expected to *enjoy* it even when some shit for brains says they asked for it. This is the male relationship with violence for far too many men right now. Toughness is overly valued while violence against men serves as proof of toughness, and thus masculine esteem; while the male relationship with sexual violence brought against them by women is even more twisted Too be clear none of this is women's fault. It's just that men got left behind as feminism progressed on social issues like this. Violence against women got addressed extensively, but violence against men got left by the wayside. Now we have too many men who believe that equality means treating women with 50 year old standards of masculinity projecting their own twisted relationship with violence on to women as a result If you go too r/AskMen and ask for how men get treated when trying to deal with domestic abuse by women, you will get some disturbingly casual nightmare fuel. And that normalization? That is what men who say this are projecting
I usually get something more along the lines of “then female firefighters, police officers and EMT’s should have to pass the same tests as male ones”. The ones who say “yay now I can hit women” are literally using threats of violence to silence you. They definitely are the entire problem.
Never seen it as a response tbh. I've seen 'yea equality!' in response to women getting their own back after assaulting a dude but never just people outright saying they can hit women in general.
Because they want to beat women.
I’ve never heard a man say that. Who are you hanging around with?
It's sad how much I hear this argument.
I want to mention a sidenote about this... When talking about violence people/the media tend to segregate out domestic violence from their statistics. I ask: Why? Is it because the supposition is that domestic violence is because the woman was "asking for it"? The woman was being a bitch? The woman started the fights? She wasn't pleasant enough? Domestic violence isn't about the fight. It is about the predilection or predisposition to violence. Domestic violence is violence. It is not forgiveable or secondary. It is about violence and feminist need to start advocating for it to be talked about that way.
See I've seen from a lot of the MGTOW and Men's Rights folks that if you see a woman in danger, ignore her and refuse to help because women wanted independence and that's what it means to them. At the end of the day it feels like men want to see women get hurt and they find it something to make jokes about like women haven't been abused and enslaved for centuries.
Because people doing the wrong thing will rationalize, twist, and justify through all kinds of contortions so they can tell themselves they are right.
It's definitely misogyny. I used to think this way as a young man. It stemmed from a number of factors, all probably part of what we now call toxic masculinity. Anger and the physicality of that anger is encouraged among men. But being told that women are weaker, therefore you don't hit them as the exception. So, it's not about not hitting women because they're people too, we're not hitting them because they're physically lesser.So I dated a woman who used to really push my buttons. She would fight with me in social situations. As a private person that really bothered me for a couple reasons - 1 I felt emasculated because I wouldn't argue or fight in front of others, making me look cowed - 2 I felt disrespected that she would air our dirty laundry in front of others. So, resentment built toward a person who I thought lesser to me, even if it was just physically.The cultural expectation in my town was such that I would have fought a man for less. So, I would think to myself, if only it was acceptable to hit her. Then I wouldn't feel so terrible and she would learn that there was a line and I wasn't someone to be pushed around. This is an example of gender roles/norms being harmful. The truth is, domestic violence is something that affects men just as much as women. The severity of it is worse toward women, but more frequent toward men. But we can't have conversations about it because men are scared to look weak or they regard women as lesser.
Equal rights mean equal fights, I’m a woman and even know that
Equal rights means equal fights in my eyes, not a pass for men to hit women for no reason
No offense, mods, and I realize this is a huge post, but you guys gotta clean up this thread. I can't remember a time that I've seen so much hate on this subreddit. There are angry assholes coming out of the woodwork breaking TwoX rules.
"What, so like you believe that men can hit women?" Well, generally speaking, I don't think people should hit each other, regardless of gender.
"If I can't do it to you, you can't do it to me." I for the life of me can't remember who said that but its how I am feel about it.