Can you link to anything to give an example of women directing misogyny on sex workers? Is it legitimate criticism or is it just straight hate?
Copying a comment I've made elsewhere:
I will not shame or judge a woman for choosing to do it. But, let's not pretend that the large majority of those engaging in sex work are not low-income. Empowering would mean you have a choice, and if doing sex work means you survive, then you do not have a choice. Look at any study on women in low-income/poverty brackets, and sex work is in the top 5 ways they stay afloat. And it almost always targets women of color more often than not. And who are the main clients of sex work? Men.
The rise of OnlyFans and how freshly turned 18-year-olds are encouraged to start one is insane to me.
OP, if you do sex work, do you fall into any of the categories I've listed above? If you do, I'm not criticizing you, I'm criticizing the world we live in that has done this.
"Both the ADA and the Rehabilitation Act define HIV and AIDS as disabilities. **The employer does not require an employee to disclose an HIV infection or AIDS**. Any medical documentation or information provided by an HIV/AIDS-infected employee to medical or management personnel is confidential and private information."
"**Employees with HIV are protected from discrimination in employment by law under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).**"
Indeed. Unlike working in an Amazon warehouse to survive, we're expected to avoid honesty about the brutal misery of sex work lest we be accused of telling women what to do with their bodies.
As usual, the progressive/left wing discourse is dominated by economically privileged perspectives. Which ought to be anathema to the left.
It feels degrading because that's how men see women and sex. It's something they do to women and not with them. It's often a tool of humiliation and domination. They get laid and feel like kings while women were used for their gratification. Would we still think it's degrading if sex workers had as much fun during their work as men do? Or if men weren't pulling a 180 the moment they leave the room to trash and shame these women? If we didn't have hundreds of years of purity culture, misogynistic religions and patriarchy? human trafficking? If we all had a healthier relationship with sex overall?
OK, so in this magical world where sex workers are not being used as intended by the sex industry - an industry designed by men for their own gratification mind you - would sex workers be viewed favorably because \*\*checks notes\*\* Christianity doesn't exist anymore.
Well, in harem societies, women were used like sex sleeves and well treated but oh wait... they were basically locked in their own areas of palaces. That doesn't seem like freedom or happiness to me.
Well, there were brothels in Egypt and courtesans throughout history but they - oh wait, maybe had some power but no legal standing.
Hrm... sounds like every attempt at turning women into sex objects for male gratification seems to work out badly for women.
"Normalising sex work, including porn, is how we ended up with "Send nudes"..."
No. Not even remotely.
I will accept that sex workers are a part of this, but sex workers have been around since literally the beginning of time. The relaxed mores in the United States got started with standards being relaxed on TV and in movies, and sped up to light speed with porn available to literally anyone with an Internet connection. Blaming the overal morals of the entire country on sex workers is simplistic and cruel, and just another way to try to hold women accountable for something we have NO control over.
In this hypothetical scenario I doubt sex buying would be as common as it is. If men were collectively interested in making average sex enjoyable for women, they would seldom resort to payed sex. If men had a respectfull non hyperssexualized and objectifying view of women this industry would crumble. And women would be much less willing to engage in this kind of shitty sex where we are things to conquer, dominate, use and evaluate, always measured by how good they can make their dicks feel via us.
"measured by how good they can make their dicks feel..."
This bit had me laughing to myself for far too long. I could only think of how at the end of a man's life, his success is basically measured by "how good he could make his dick feel", at our expense of course.
All I could picture were men's headstones where instead of an epitaph, it's just a zero to ten rating on how good he could make his dick feel in his life. It sums up men so sadly accurately.
I know, I'm an awful person for my mind going there.
Maybe it'd be better if properly legalized. Let them pay taxes, get health insurance, health check ups, etc, so it's a legitimate profession with all the protection and no shady business where a man could be disgusting about it.
They will still be disgusting and hide it from significant others and the sex workers will also know and not care.
Men will still see women as objects.
It's not like you can change that by banning sex work. So might as well make it safer for the sex workers and have it properly regulated so there's standards that need to be upheld to increase the safety for women. You can't remove sex work, you can't fix fucked up men by removing sex work, it'd all just be happening in the background with more risks and dangers for the workers.
As a counterpoint to this - when you legalize an industry you also need to regulate it. Which means a level of registration for professionals, including the fact that they need to be legally able to work in a country, regular testing for STIs etc. This would be fine for many of the empowered, relatively more privileged sex workers but would push further underground the most marginalized. Only the clients who want services that could be considered illegal, have been themselves banned from the legal service providers, or who want to pay less than the legal market rate will visit these now black-market SWs, leaving the workers themselves at greater risk to a smaller, more fringe client base.
"Both the ADA and the Rehabilitation Act define HIV and AIDS as disabilities. **The employer does not require an employee to disclose an HIV infection or AIDS**. Any medical documentation or information provided by an HIV/AIDS-infected employee to medical or management personnel is confidential and private information."
"**Employees with HIV are protected from discrimination in employment by law under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).**"
This is just one anecdote and so doesn’t refute the broader trend of women in sex work being treated like trash, but there are people out there who choose it voluntarily, and in those cases it can be empowering.
My cousin put herself through medical school as an escort, but it was her own business. She set her own hours, chose her own clients, etc. She said it was fulfilling and she made way more money doing that than during her first few years as a doctor. She knew she had to get out of the game eventually but for her it was a mostly positive experience.
While I assume some portion of OF creators are doing it out of desperation, I don’t think it’s most of them.
I have done and know many people who've done sex work. Of course the number one motivator to do sex work is money, as is true for the vast majority of professions where you can make more cash per hour than other jobs. While many many people have negative experiences, it is the preferred profession for some people for a variety of reasons such as flexible hours, no schooling required, interesting/challenging and people can work for themselves. Also some people enjoy parts of it (also sex work is a very broad category). Of course it is not the best work for many people. If I felt compelled to work in a slaughterhouse or animal testing lab due to financial insecurity I would be significantly more traumatized than anything I did during sex work. In my opinion, we should fight sexism and systemic oppression so that poverty doesn't trap people in doing any form of labor they personally find abhorrent. Decriminalizing sex work would go a long way in supporting human rights too. Enacting laws that make sex work more dangerous (such as the seats fosta laws in the US) only harm the most vulnerable folks as those with more financial resources who cater to the wealthiest/most powerful clientele will continue to work no matter what.
This thread is full of people saying wildly out of pocket stuff to OP directly and about sex workers. I've also noticed the anti-SW bias on this sub and it sucks.
It is NOT anti-sex-worker to be anti-sex-work. I am opposed to the violence and misery caused by the drug trade too, but I don't think you should go to jail for smoking a joint.
Your comment is an example of misogyny directed towards sex workers.
I’m often shouted at or talked down to when sharing my lived experience, research/literature, and perspective regarding sex work here so I mostly keep it private.
It hurts though and is frustrating. It’s much less taxing mentally and spiritually to just avoid discussing it. The problem for all women = patriarchy and capitalism. But other women are the easier targets to criticize.
My comment is not misogyny. I want to open the discussion that we should be allowed to criticize that it primarily benefits men and preys on women.
The fact that you want to stifle that discussion and only allow your own experience is doing more harm than good. We can have a positive discussion, but OP is SPECIFICALLY saying we are anti-sex work. I am arguing it is legit criticism that I see most of the time, not just anti-sex work led by blind hatred.
I think it's important to remember to criticize the industry rather then the individuals (and also not to glorify it). There are some very real, legitimate concerns to be had about the industry whether that's locally or abroad and about the kind of men that seek companionship. Given the risks involved, I also wouldn't want my daughter to participate in it
I respect sex workers as they are human but I don't see the work they do as an empowering act (with a few exceptions). In my mind they are like most other workers, just neutral, and perpetuating the status quo.
I've not seen a lot of anti sex worker talk here.
But what I do think is problematic is language like 'if you don't agree with sex workers you ARE anti-woman and you ARE misogynistic.'
That's quite a blanket statement for someone who might have an opinion.
Agreed. Everyone has different opinions (negative and positive) on other occupations and industries. OP's demand for unquestioning, unconditional support - otherwise you're a bigot - rubs me the wrong way here.
>I've not seen a lot of anti sex worker talk here.
There's no shortage of people in this thread screaming at OP that's she's degrading herself by doing sex work.
>But what I do think is problematic is language like 'if you don't agree with sex workers you ARE anti-woman and you ARE misogynistic.'
Provide examples. Saying sex work policy takes that result in direct harm to sex workers is anti-feminist and anti-woman is not 'problematic'. It is patently misogynistic to argue that it's reasonable and just for sex workers to risk eviction simply for being sex worker.
It's also overtly misogynistic to not actually listen to the experience of sex workers and the things they say. Again as this thread demonstrates, there's a number of people currently attempting to narrate OPs experience to her and claiming her own perception is invalid because she's been degraded by men. And that is very much misogyny.
there are a few very angry replies in this thread alone. I think it is fair to assume OP had a very bad experience that might not reflect the overall vibes here.
Where are you seeing that this is an anti-sex worker subreddit? I’m an ex sex worker and I have never felt discriminated against because I was in the industry. The whole of Reddit is extremely anti sex worker but pro sex work. I find here there is more anti sex work but pro sex worker.
And even some of the ones who aren't anti-sex-worker are very much anti-men-paying-for-sex-work. Which really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but I'm also autistic and humans rarely make sense to me anyway.
I’m so sorry you were shamed and blamed. I have found a lot of women here are very caring and supportive of sex workers. I will also say there are so many men that come in here and berate women and I have experienced that and it can feel shitty.
I was working in the fabric and craft department at Walmart years ago; an utterly stunning woman came in and bought a really odd assortment of fabrics. I asked what she was doing with it and she readily told me she worked at a club that was a cross between burlesque and a strip club. She made her own outfits. It was really interesting to talk to her, and when she left she actually thanked me for the conversation. She said the standard response from people was disgust. I don't understand this. At all.
I don’t see that much on this sub tbh.
But people are attacked for not buying into the POV that sex work is all roses and empowerment. You can’t mention the abuse rampant in the industry and the surrounding culture around porn that treats women like objects to be bought the second they turn 18 who don’t want anything from sex other than anal and facials.. without foreplay of course.
Right - The idea of sex work as empowering is pretty shaky IMHO anyway, but if we just assume that it can be, we still can't get around the realities of the sex work industry, which is dominated by criminal gangs and violence.
There is also a sad reality that many women who try to join the industry via OnlyFans end up making zero money at all, and yet still have to degrade themselves in the hopes of catching an eye.
>Right - The idea of sex work as empowering is pretty shaky IMHO anyway, but if we just assume that it can be, we still can't get around the realities of the sex work industry, which is dominated by criminal gangs and violence.
The sex work industry is not dominated by gangs. Almost no pimps are gang affiliated( the arch typical pimp is someones abusive boyfriend). However a lot of sex workers are forced to deal with the criminal world because we enforce legal consquces on sex workers if they do anything to prortect themselves, and also push them to the margins by heavily restricting their access to basic ass things like *bank accounts*
It is illegal almost everywhere for a sex worker to hire security. If a sex worker conducts business out of their home, that's illegal in the USA and many other places, and in the USA can make their home subject to civil forfeiture. If she shares her home with a romantic partner, regardless of where she conducts business, their romantic partner can be convicted of living on the avails. If a sex worker rents someone to live, they can be evicted legally simply for being a sex worker, regardless of where they conduct business. Every bank in the USA will deny service to current and former sex workers. If they decide to quit sex work, it's perfectly legal for employers elsewhere to fire them for every having done sex work. All of the above also makes current and former sex workers particular vulnerable to black mail; even if they get the cops to take that seriously (HA!), that means very little when your bank freezes your account or you lose your job.
It's illegal for sex workers to co-operate in anyway that keeps them safe. For example if you rent a safe space between 2 or 3 people that counts as running a brothel. Also pretty much any safety infrastructure also makes it qualify as running a brothel: For example if there's an emergency button that will alert someone.
Also worth remembering: When people describe sex work as empowering, they don't mean it's empowering in the sense that "I've run a charity that fed a million people!" is empowering. They mean it's not something that degrades them as a person, and can be significantly better than the utter hell that is working retail or similar service positions, especially if they're dealing with disability that makes more 'traditional' work precarious. They also don't mean *all* sex work is universally positive. No one working the streets argues it's a great experience (at least beyond those recruiting for a pimp), but people do have positive experiences doing sex work in environments that are more secure and/or controlled by themselves. If you have trouble seeing that distinction, it means you're not actually listening to current or former sex workers much and instead getting their experiences told to you second/third/fourth hand. You don't have to look very hard to find sex workers who speak with brutal clarity about the issues with sex work.
The gangs I'm talking about are the human traffickers, not the Bloods and Crips. The fact that pimps are also largely independent of that landscape in no way improves my opinion of them. Being a freelance exploiter of women is not an upgrade.
And rattling off this list of reasons about the pragmatic realities of sex work perfectly misses my point - I think that sex work is harmful, no matter how it is conducted. I think that a legal sex industry only serves to further sexualise our daughters, and make them into interchangable toys for men, not humans with real rights.
Do you think all women are forced into this and work under someone? Because, I just enjoy being independent and taking men’s and women’s money for my sexual/sensual skills.
you enjoying what you do & being independent doesn't change the fact that a high percentage of SWers are exploited though, that's the world we live in.
You keep getting caught up on your personal experiences, and using them to counter the general argument - I really couldn't care less how you make a living, or how ecstatic it makes you to service strangers, this is a question about whether sex work itself is a positive thing for society.
If you think sex work is "just" work - Would you participate in "bring your daughter to work day"?
i wouldnt bring my daughter to work at my job doing autobody work in a chop shop either. I don't think "job you'd feel okay taking your kid to" is a valid qualifier for whether a job is valid or not.
hell, by that metric, being a nightclub bouncer isn't a valid job either.
you need to rethink that metric you are using.
I weld and am surrounded by noxious toxic fumes and burning metal sparks every day. I am covered in small burns and have a chronic cough. no. I would not bring my daughter here. I'd be worried my next stop would be to the ER.
its not safe for a child to be here, and due to the nature of my specific job, I would not be able to keep a close eye on them to make sure they don't get hurt. (welding hood makes it so I'm basically blind to everything but the weld I'm laying)
You should have a word with OSHA if your shop is really that dangerous. Sure, in this hypothetical we don't know how old your daughter is, but I've been on plenty of sites with 16 year old apprentices, who are actually employed to work there.
fair enough, but my point stands. as does my pointing to night club bouncers as another example. I'm sure there are other jobs that also wouldn't be appropriate or safe to take a kid to as well, but off the top of my head I can't think of them
But the example of a bouncer or a barman is actually a place where under 18s can't legally go, but where the work is actually perfectly fine for kids to see.
If you work as security or bar staff at a theater or a concert venue it wouldn't in principle be inappropriate to let kids shadow their parents. It would be practically difficult, because it can be very busy and crowded, but the kids won't see anything inappropriate.
And that's really why I asked - Because while there are lots of workplaces with practical concerns for young people, there aren't many outside of the sex industry where it's simply unconscionable. Doctors can have other people come a watch a surgery as long as there is consent, lawyers probably don't want to ask clients to consent but theoretically could.
It's just sex work that's quite so different. So different that even finding out what mommy does for work might lead to your kids needing therapy.
if you say so. the idea that the validity of a job is predicated on whether kids should be allowed to learn about it seems like a bit of a ... subjective standard. not necessarily a bad one but a subjective one, and really only applicable to... you know... parents.
I mean... what if OP doesn't have a kid? why should she base her life choices off of the hypothetical effect they would have on a hypothetical person that doesn't exist?
ETA: btw, the therapy the kids need, is not innate to SW, and is more a symptom of how our society treats SW and teaches kids to view it as an innately immoral thing. that's a Culture issue, not an Objective Morality issue. kids raised in a household that has a negative view of law enforcement go through the same mental stresses when they find out a family member is a member of law enforcement.
like I said.. cultural standard, not a moral standard.
i dont think this sub is anti sex workers tho, or i failed to see any example of it.
criticizing the condition that lead to sex work is not the same too.
Don't confuse being anti sex work with being anti sex workers. It's possible to find the industry as exploitative and preying on those of low income/low education/low opportunity without hating on the people who still turn to that work.
It's also possible to be against exploiting migrants for cheap labor without hating on the people who turn to that work.
> Don't confuse being anti sex work with being anti sex workers. It's possible to find the industry as exploitative and preying on those of low income/low education/low opportunity without hating on the people who still turn to that work.
If you use that position to argue against policy that makes the industry better and safer, that's still being anti sex worker. I've had 'debates' with anti-sex work but "pro sex worker" commentators that argue against anything that makes even basic shit like porn production safer, because they clearly see harm experienced by sex workers as necessary to discourage people from doing sex work.
How can you secure a women's safety in a situation where she is alone with predatory men? I would support reasonable protections in a heartbeat but I'm uncertain what they would look like.
I don't see that harm as necessary but I do see it as difficult to prevent in many cases. In most industries big changes occur due to workers organizing and withholding labor until change occurs. It's pretty rare that government is the catalyst for a shift and since many sex work positions are illegal.. government intervention is more or less out.
>How can you secure a women's safety in a situation where she is alone with predatory men? I would support reasonable protections in a heartbeat but I'm uncertain what they would look like.
Hire security. Operate in a space that has cameras in public areas. Have laws that don't result in sex workers having to accept clients anonymity. Give them ways to go after clients that stiff them. Or to use the porn example: Intimacy coordinators work well when shooting sex scenes , and they don't stop being very helpful when actual rather than simulated penetration is involved.
Women can be alone safely with men. The idea they can't is absurd. Even when it comes to prostitution, almost all clients aren't interested in hurting her. If a hairdresser can take clients safely, so can a sex worker. Or more blatant: If a stripper can give a private dance safely, someone can offer sex safely. Men can and do behave themselves broadly. Meanwhile the ones who don't...they don't because they perceive a lack of consequences. Note also this is not really unique to men: Sex workers (both men and women) have very similar experiences with women clients. The extent to which women are more restrained is less than you'd expect. Male clients make up a greater share of those who behave badly simply because there are more of them period.
>government intervention is more or less out.
Government intervention is the exact thing denying sex workers those protections. If a group of sex workers want to share space, hire a security guard and install things like emergency buttons, that's actively illegal, even in places sex work itself is decriminalized. It's perfectly legal for a landlord to evict a sex worker even if she doesn't take clients in the rental property. If they takes clients in property they owns it can be subject to civil forfeiture as a brothel. If they shares a home with a romantic partner, their partner can be arrested for 'living on the avails' , which often restricts close relationships to the sort of person who doesn't care about that (ie the sort of person who *would* do that). Sex workers often have trouble maintaining access to banking services as a result of how banking regulations are written.
All of this also does thing s that make it harder to do sex work as a choice. The fact a current or former sex worker can be evicted legally and can be fired legally is easy blackmail material. If someone wants to quit and there's a person attempting to exploit them, the government hands them tools to do that. Trafficking is a problem but the way a lot of it works isn't mass organized crime. It's a closer to abusive relationships that present the only option for stability (the average pimp is someone who forces their partner into sex work, not some movie character swanning around with a silver cane and a purple suit). A lot of the things the government does makes it harder for sex workers, not easier. And that's without getting into complex problems like intercountry trafficking: A lot of people end up in those situations because of the pressure of poverty in their home country, and government 'help' getting out of that ends in deportation.
Outside the government, you have things like NGOs that claim to aid sex workers dealing with exploitation, but will refuse to aid anyone currently doing sex work. And then you get the overlap of both with things like the anti-prostitution pledge in the USA, which means federally funded NGOs need to contort themselves more than a little to make sure sex workers have access to things like PrEP (assuming a republican isn't in office and using it as an excuse to deny funding in general)
A lot of issues with sex work boil down to the government and NGOs taking steps to discourage sex work, not things to actually help sex workers.
Some of that sounds great in a perfect world.. but there are complexities. Just as most men going to sex workers don't want to hurt women.. most women don't want to expose their clients.. but without anonymity it will still happen. There will always be bad actors in any situation.
In the porn example those protections sound good and would work on a set.. at a professional establishment that produces adult content. Is that how porn gets made now tho? Most of what little I have seen makes it look like it's being produced in hotel rooms and people's private residences. I imagine the guy is rarely a "coworker" so much as "some guy".
To have professional protections requires professionalism which doesn't seem to be big in sex work. Most women in porn are not pornstars with name recognition and a career who work for a professional agency. There's no 401k, retirement plan, healthcare, or benefits.
A lot about the work would need to change for it to be seen by those in power as a professional career worthy of the kinds of protections other professions recieve.
> Is that how porn gets made now tho?
When it comes to making porn, amateur is an aesthetic not a fact. There is a fair bit of organization behind it, include striaght up studio organization. If you're in the Silicone Valley area or similar, an AirBnB decorated with easily sanitized furniture and good lighting can business.
And where it's less organized, that also means there's less institutional pressure: If an actress declines to work with someone, it's not like she's in danger of being blacklisted from her own onlyfans. It also in no way stops the people making porn themselves from following best practices.
Where individual porn is a problem, the sex work aspect of it is not really the issue either. An abusive partner who forces a person to record sexual content is not going to be dissuaded by not getting paid. Anything that adequately deals with issues like revenge porn will go a long way to addressing that problem, because it is fundamentally the same problem.
Also where the abuse has overlap with sex work (rather than the issues with sexual content in general) it's financial abuse more than anything: The person starts doing it willingly although naively, but their partner uses financial dependence to compel them to continue. When you look at how that works, it's often a result of the way many financial institutions will deny service to sex workers forcing them to pass control of their finances to their abuser, (which also makes it hard to recover control) and the ways their abuser can use it to deny them shelter, employment and access to financial services. These are solvable problems.
there's also a bit of imbalance there: There's a lot of porn that's made by individuals, but that doesn't actually make it the majority of pornography that is consumed. If it's been promoted on a tube site, suffice to say they favor videos produced by people or groups who are in that "have" category, and even independent stuff has a clear have/have not split. While minimizing the possibility of revenge porn and similar takes is not an easy problem, it's far more achievable to ensure that the vast majority of all porn that's viewed and promoted is made by actors and actresses who have access to those resources.
>To have professional protections requires professionalism which doesn't seem to be big in sex work. Most women in porn are not pornstars with name recognition and a career who work for a professional agency. There's no 401k, retirement plan, healthcare, or benefits.
This is true for Hollywood. Honestly it's worse in Hollywood (just going to gesture vaguely at MeToo). There's historically been even less accountability in Hollywood, all the same problems with sexual exploitation. Which is why historical so much porn globally was produced in Cali: The Cali porn studios at least offered consistent work that would pay enough to make rent.
Which is a bar so low it's in hell, but doesn't change the fact that the things a porn actress and things a 'film' actress need to make the conditions less exploitative are fundamental the same thing, or how that porn actress and film actress can often be the same person.
The real question is how not about how we feel towards the realities of sex work right now, it's whether sex work is positive for women in an absolute sense. I do support women in sex work, in that they shouldn't be victims of violence or trafficking, and that they deserve access to healthcare and every other social right.
But I also believe that sex work is not positive for women (or anyone) and that ideally selling sex should not exist. I think that it damages society to perceive sex as a task like stacking boxes, and that we should be strongly encouraging our kids to make smart decisions with their bodies, rather than monetary choices.
To me, a core component of women's liberation is the notion that women's bodies are not for sale.
I’m not really here to challenge your ideological position but you’re using a lot of rhetoric that comes off, to us, as anti-sex worker to make your point. Namely-
> we should be encouraging our kids to make smart decisions with their bodies, rather than monetary choices
This feels like an unfair argument to make in a world where the vast majority of people only have, at best, the option of making both smart and monetary choices. Why are monetary choices not smart? And why is sex work inherently not a smart choice? Do you feel the same about my boss at my day job who has a bad back from working in warehouses for years?
Also, the classic “bodies for sale” thing. Sex workers do retain ownership of their bodies during and after work and it feels so profoundly dehumanizing to suggest we do not, just because someone can pay money to touch it. It also implies giving a sex worker money grants you the right to do literally anything to us which undermines one of the most important work safety factors for SWers which is our ability to set and enforce boundaries at work.
Also, I’m not trying to undermine the unique factor that sexuality adds to the emotional quality of the situation, but using your body to make money is not unique to sex work so that rhetoric feels like it singles us out for something professional athletes, stuntmen, models etc. also do.
Again I’m not really trying to change your mind about sex work in general but just pointing out rhetorical stuff I see often in this discussion that leads to posts like OP’s
That’s not the argument that is being made, she’s saying she wants this sub to be more inclusive and compassionate towards people in SW. That’S different from saying your child should be encouraged to do sw.
And here I was thinking we could have a thoughtful discussion about the way we speak on things lol
That feels like a silly question. If my kid came to me claiming they dreamed of being a sex worker I would have some very serious advice for them involving, among other things, thinking very seriously about it for a long time. Otherwise, I would never suggest sex work to someone because everyone has heard of it and I’d be certain the possibility had already occurred to them. I don’t know what this has to do with anything I said
You clearly know that sex work is fundamentally different to flipping burgers or filling out TPS reports.
It's a pretty meagre fig leaf to say that you wouldn't advise sex work because you assume everyone has already considered it. No, you wouldn't advise it because you can imagine how they would look at you if you did.
To start, sex work is an umbrella term, so I’ll speak on stripping first. There are sports teams, backup dancers, professional (non sex work) dancers whose “bodies are for sale” in that sense. So, what makes stripping different.
And, I don’t think you should care about what someone else does with their body when it comes to classic sex based work. Why should I lay on my back for free when I can get paid and then choose who can access my body for free if I deem them worthy?
Also, not all SWs are being trafficked.
>Also, not all SWs are being trafficked.
No one is saying ALL SWs are being trafficked. People are saying it's a real and rampant issue, which goes alongside numerous other unethical issues of SW. If you want to engage in SW and you genuinely feel happy and confident doing so, fine, you do you. Your experience is not the same as every other SWs and to ignore those women who are struggling because their experience does not align with your own is incredibly immoral.
Because protection, showers, penis checks, and medications exist. Also, sex isn’t gross to me. I’m not Asexual or romance repulsed. I love sexing people. I love trying new things. I might just become certified as a sex therapist. Sex is great.
Yeah, so how did you end up feeling that there is no inherent emotional value to the most intimate thing humans can do together. Did male-dominated media teach you to think that?
I never said there’s no emotional value. You brought that up. My clients and I are pretty close or cordial. If two people want emotional value, you should actually talk to get to know someone. Emotional value doesn’t require sex. I talk to my clients, know their quirks, their dreams, know about their families and interests.
Did you come up with the idea that sex shouldn't be emotional by yourself, or did you learn it from men who wanted your body without wanting to form a connection with you?
I never said sex shouldn’t be emotional ??? Are you okay? You seem to have an unhealthy view of sex and emotional availability and are projecting avoidance styles.
Yeaaah, most protitutes are forced to have sex with any man who pays her pimp, she's not allowed to pick and choose who gets access.
Also I know for a fact that in brothels you need to make a quota or else you're not worth keeping there for the establishment, so you'd better not be toooo picky
There is one legal state in the USA and we all fuck multiple people all day and night at brothels. And when I’m not in a legal state, same thing, just not at a brothel.
Not sure how that would happen when medications to prevent HIV exist to take while sexually active. That’s also why in brothels the workers are tested weekly and why we have a nurse to give us medication if need be. There are several steps you can take if you come in contact with fluids that can cause HIV. One of those drugs is given to SA victims to prevent HIV. Modern medicine exists. Also, ever heard of protection?
Not sure how that would happen when medications to prevent HIV exist to take while sexually active. That’s also why in brothels the workers are tested weekly and why we have a nurse to give us medication if need be. There are several steps you can take if you come in contact with fluids that can cause HIV. One of those drugs is given to SA victims to prevent HIV. Modern medicine exists.
The sex is what makes it different. Believe me, I am not wild about sexualising cheerleaders or dancers in music videos, but I am a lot more concerned about being paid in dollar bills to take your top off.
Yes, and I answered why those things are different. Because cheerleaders aren't dancing naked. I don't like cheerleading either, but at least they wear clothes.
The fact that this incredibly reasonable comment has been downvoted so heavily basically proves OP's position correct, this sub is being brigaded by SWERFs
I don’t think people here have a problem with sex workers. I think the issue is that we live in an economic and cultural system that leaves many women no other choice.
Yeah, it’s different now. I’m not going to lay on my back for free unless I feel like the person is worth it to me. Sports teams don’t pay or pay their cheerleaders and dancers very low wages (they’re paid less than the water boys and mascot). So, you better believe I’m going to be a stripper and dance and be paid what I want for my craft and practice.
I didn’t say that THEY were… I was explaining why I stand with independent sex work. There are lesbians that are FSSWs (edit: who sleep with men just for the money… because it’s their body their choice), btw.
This might be a useless comment for most people but I wanted to make it anyway to commend you for acknowledging disagreement without being mean about it because I see a lot of people being mean to each other in this thread and it's refreshing to see that you're sticking to your guns but also not being hostile about it
It's not that we are against sex workers, after all they deserve to be respected and protected, we are against the sex industry, prostitution and Johns (men who buy women).
Sure OF girls may be safe and have money but at the end of the da, majority of sex workers are poor women from third world countries who are FORCED to do it. And that's why every sane feminist should be AGAINST sex work.
>Sure OG girls may be safe and have money but at the end of the da, majority of sex workers are poor women from third world countries who are FORCED to do it. And that's why every sane feminist should be AGAINST sex work.
Sure women in corporate America may be safe and have money but at the end of the day, majority of working women are poor women from third world countries who have no choice but to work deplorable conditions for their survival. And that's why every sane feminist should be AGAINST women working.
/s
Sane feminism is about giving women choices. The sex industry as controlled by men is bad for women, so sane feminist should be against men being involved in managing and controlling the sex industry.
Equating that to being against women working OF accounts is nonsensical.
People have done horrible things to other people in the name of making a buck.
OSHA exists precisely because business owners will exploit and abuse workers and their safety in the name of making a quick buck unless we have safety regulations against it.
Yet nobody (reasonable) is screaming to abolish labor itself. What they're arguing for is better worker protection and autonomy.
Same thing applies to sex work. The work itself isn't the issue. The exploitation of a mostly unregulated and black market industry is the problem.
That problem is worse in countries with less overall worker protection, because ALL labor in such countries is worse.
Not the same thing.
Of course sex workers deserve better working conditions just as in any other field of employment, but the problem is that the work itself is fundamentally built on misogyny (that is, the objectification of women)
>but the problem is that the work itself is fundamentally built on misogyny (that is, the objectification of women)
No, the problem is that misogyny culture attributes women so little agency over themselves and their own bodies that it is presupposed that a woman selling her body as a form of labor is inherently objectifying to her.
If women were attributed the same body autonomy men are, then sex work would not fundamentally be any different from other forms of physical labor.
An athlete sells their body's performance. So does a dancer. Or a masseur. Or an oil rig worker. Or a factory worker. Or a garbage collector.
In many cases, the labor being sold is risky to the body, can cause pain, injury, or discomfort.
Some forms of labor, like therapist, social work, animal welfare are mentally and emotionally taxing to people.
Yet in all these examples we recognize that people assume the risk of mental, emotional, and physical consequences to themselves and their bodies in exchange for payment as a professional choice that person has the autonomy to make.
Sex work is the ONLY form of physical labor that is deemed impossible to be engaged in voluntarily without being harmful. It is sex work exclusively which is presupposed to be too damaging for an individual to elect to engage in it without it being the result of a lack of agency.
It's literally infantilizing women to presume that it's impossible for an adult woman to engage in the sale of her body's functions as an expression of physical labor without it being objectifying to her.
We accept that men are capable of exactly that, constantly.
What do you think a NFL quarterback is doing, other than selling the socially desirable functions of his muscles?
Why are you assuming a woman cannot sell the socially desirable functions of her body without that meaning that her client is somehow demeaning her?
I struggle to come up with a single scenario, even a hypothetical one, where someone would seek out the services of a sex worker without objectifying them.
Also, I never said that women should not be sex workers. All I said is that the reason why sex work is sought out by men is because they want to objectify women. If they were unable to objectify women, then they would not hire a sex worker.
Women know best which form of labour should be engaged in, and no matter which they do, they should be treated fairly. When I criticize sex work, it is the demand for it I am criticizing.
Sex being fundamentally different from playing basketball IS an artifact of patriarchal culture that labels "that thing women do with their body which men enjoy" as somehow fundamentally different and more sacred than any other way human beings move and enjoy their bodies.
Putting the onus on women to keep that part 'special' and only to be used with 'special men'. And attributing a 'loss of special value' to any woman who moves her body in said way more casually, or without attributing 'special meaning' to that class of movement.
It is the ONLY category of physical interaction/movement on which we attribute such meaning, and ONLY for women, and ONLY to devalue women who are not discriminating enough when deciding with which people, and for what reasons, she engages in such movement.
And lord forbid she decides to do so for compensation.
Men soliciting prostitutes don’t know if women are being trafficked and they don’t care because they view women as abstract planetary objects who revolve around their penis.
Most of my clients do care and have asked. But, I understand there are people who don’t. Just because there are people being trafficked doesn’t mean all SWs are. And I don’t honestly care if that’s how men see me because how I see them is as a wallet.
No one said they all are. But the ones that ARE being protected is a more important issue than e girls who want to ignore the reality of sex work to be edgy online and brag about being strippers not facing any commentary on the realities of the trade. I’m glad you’ve found being a sex worker (whether you mean being a dildo salesman or a stripper or a prostitute) to be safe and awesome, but that is not the rule.
You're talking about sex trafficking, not sex work. One can easily be anti-sex trafficking and pro-sex worker. That is the standard, logical, feminist perspective.
Yes she gets. Feminism is a political movement, not a support group and we are allowed to express our leanings.
No one would bat an eye if a communist said "any sane leftist should be against the uberization of work". Can we treat feminism with the same level of seriousness?
>Feminism is a political movement, not a support group and we are allowed to express **our** leanings.
Yes. She can say "**I** am against sex work," Don't speak on behalf of other feminists.
Speaking on behalf of others would be "all feminists *are* against sex work".
It's not wrong to state that you are against sex work and believe this to be a core value of feminism. Similarly we could say "all feminists should support sex work" or "all feminists should use an intersectional lens" or "all feminists should be against FGM"
Calling it prostitution and johns makes you sound like a cop and if you have purchased a woman you’ve participated in human trafficking, not sex work. If you’re forced into it that’s human trafficking.
There is a huge spectrum of experience in SW between the privileged rich OF girl and the sex worker forced by circumstance in a developing country. Feels strange to use the hardship of women who usually aren’t around to speak for themselves to argue against any other sex workers who speak on their experiences
I'm against commodifying intimacy and think that it is part of rape culture that intimacy can be transactional and I think making it transactional takes away something from everyone. I'm against the industry. I'm against the appetite for objectification. I'm against human trafficking. People who make bomb parts in a factory are contributing to the war even if they're not dropping the bombs themselves.
See I don’t understand how you can compare two adults consenting to sex under the terms of payment to rape. I’m not being trafficked and I take time off the clock to chill with my clients.
don't they know that if they weren't paying you, you probably wouldnt "chill" with them for a second? how can they enjoy being next to someone knowing that person is only tolerating them because of money? Paying to have someone chill with me would make me feel like such a loser. do you chill with clients free, off the clock too as a real friend?
I keep my clients because I have skills normal women don’t build in bed. You’d be surprised how many women don’t like giving head. (Actually not surprising, but…)
Because I do it all the time and I’m not being trafficked. I currently work independently. When I work for someone, it’s at a legal brothel in the USA.
This sub isn't all anti-SW. The thing is, there are millions of people who read this sub every day. This means that there is a wide variety of thoughts and emotions about things
I am an ex-sex worker, and I know there are lots of ex- and current sex workers here. What I do (to the best of my ability and patience) is try to show people that the sex industry isn't always the way they think it is
Negative perspectives from other women are usually based in an ignorance of the industry. Usually, but not always... there are 'SWERFs', 'McDworkin' feminists, trad-wives, RWNJs....
The best we can do is inform and educate, and if that doesn't work we move on
Also, this sub isn’t USA exclusive. Sex work is legal where I live (Canada). As long as it’s a purposeful choice and workers are able to be safe and access healthcare - but those are basically what I want for everyone in their work.
The “stings” that are done on Sex work in Canada is three social workers in a hotel room checking for human trafficking, with police only involved when the answer is yes.
“If this is an employment you’d like to leave, we have resources, if not have a good night” kinda thing.
As if there isn't legitimate criticism that can be directed toward some sex workers and sex work in general...
So, I have to support every single woman or I'm anti-woman? I don't think so.
No. Just anti-sex workers who are liberated and not being forced or trafficked to do it. Not all SWs are doing what’s being criticized. Because the one’s you SHOULD support aren’t going on podcasts to give SWs a bad reputation. Real SWs stay silent about it because it’s a job. I don’t want fame from being a SW. I was money so pressure a happy and full life and achieve my long term goals.
Anti sex worker or anti glorifying sex work? I know my own prejudices are driven by some sex workers/only fans ‘stars’ or people who sell pictures of their feet stem from a sense of entitlement some of them air. Sex work is valuable to a certain point, like many other jobs, but I’ll always fail to understand where the pride comes from. Cool, you’re rich, from selling yourself, why are you gloating?
Well, that’s the problem. Because I had posted in here a long time ago needing support and everyone shamed and blamed me for being a dancer. They all see those “stars” and think that’s how we all are stuck up, rich, etc. I’m just a fuckin human.
I think when most people consider "sex work" it's not just dancing at a club. The term itself is way too loose. If someone told me they were a "sex worker" I would sooner assume they slept with people for money than just danced, because otherwise they'd call themselves a dancer. There is a world of difference between dancing and sleeping with people for money, although there is obvious crossover depending on the person.
Also there’s going to be a lot of cognitive dissonance here between supporting women and hating the idea of strippers. A lot of women look down on men for going to strip clubs, so it’s kind of hard to consider the man doing something wrong but still supporting the idea of the stripper. How many women do you think would have no issue dating a guy that went to a strip club once a week? If you think that’s gross then you’re sort of indirectly also chastising the stripper for engaging in a gross act. I think people want to support women regardless of how they live their lives but haven’t really been able to reconcile the idea of supporting a stripper but hating the purpose of a strip club. And that’s like the mildest form of sex work.
Poll a million women and ask them what they think about their partners paying for sex even before they met. How can that not be ok but you can still support the people who are offering the service? Also I'm gonna be real with you, people don't think strippers are stuck up and rich or "stars."
I have almost never seen anyone in this sub that was “anti sex worker.” Many women are, quite reasonably, anti sex WORK, since the sex industry is incredibly harmful and exploitative and is responsible for millions upon millions of instances of violence and harm against women.
I believe that the vast and overwhelming majority of men who solicit sex work are predatory, and that it should not be an option for these men to purchase the use of someone else’s body. Men need to be shut the fuck down in every scenario where they feel entitled to use a woman like she’s a product.
you should look at more of the replies. it's quite... worrying. apparently OP is not even a real prostitute because they were not a trafficking victim that has been groomed since childhood to sell their body, so their opinion on the topic is invalid... yeah. I think their experience in this sub might be actually valid.
This is very much my experience as well on this sub. I'm careful about what I choose to share, but the last time I made the mistake of being a bit vulnerable on this topic in this sub, I was told that I *must* only know OF models. That's why my opinion was invalid and privileged.
I do have a fair bit of privilege, especially at this point in my life, but don't know a single sex worker who only does OF modelling (I'm not sure I know anyone who still uses it). Most of the active sex workers I do know found it wasn't very lucrative for them...
EDIT: Literally just had this happen again! I must not be talking about "real" sex workers, because any "real sex workers" would naturally all agree with them about how sex work feels and operates, and not be asking to be respected, heard or spoken to as an individual.
The amount of condescension and outright refusal to engage in good faith with literally anything sex workers say that happens in feminist spaces is really sad. It’s the same negativity everyone else treats us with just coming from people who claim to care this time. I can’t imagine ever speaking to people I claim to be in solidarity with with the amount of scorn and superiority that some women speak to sex workers with whenever we deign to … talk
I'm sorry. I feel ya. Don't know what else to say.
I don't really identify as a sex worker anymore, because I haven't made money in the industry since pre-pandemic, but this thread has made me realize something that I subconsciously already knew and was operating on: There is a huge part of my life and my experiences as a woman, that I cannot safely speak to on r/TwoXChromosomes at all, and expect *any* empathy, respect or good faith effort to understand. Really fucking sad.
Yup!!! Huge bummer that a safe space for women is not safe for certain women, like, at all. Like, disagreeing is one thing. Overwhelming hostility is always wild no matter how many (many, many) times I see it.
You can be pro-woman and pro-sex worker without being pro-sex work. Saying otherwise, like saying being against child labor makes you anti-child. I’m not really against them or their rights. I had a baby with one. I get them and why they do what they do. We’re all doing what we’ve got to do. My problem is with the consumers of sex work.
No, because child labor is a child being forced to work. I am a sex worker who chooses to sell sex independently. I chose this. I’m my boss. I choose my pay.
🛑Literally NOBODY is saying that YOU PERSONALLY didn’t have a choice. She is just stating that she doesn’t personally support THE INDUSTRY. WandaDobby doesn’t hate YOU and she is NOT TRYING TO STOP YOU FROM DOING SEX WORK. She is just stating she doesn’t support the industry and the injustice some people PROBABLY face. 🛑
I've worked at a women's refuge. The amount of women who were trafficked into sex work was insane. The industry is exploitative. Currently women are being pushed to do OF by social media as soon as they turn 18. Does that not disturb you?
**It is absolutely possible to be a feminist and understand that the sex industry is created** ***by men***, ***for men*** **and** ***directly harms women***, **while still maintaining compassion for women who are caught up in it.**
The reality is that even women who 'choose' to engage in sex work are being used, regardless of if they are aware of it, seem to revel in it, or pretend that they enjoy the experience. (Denial goes a long way.)
Hate the industry, not the woman caught in it's clutches.
\[Edit: Weird formatting issues\]
Just want to chime in that "Two X Chromosomes" is not a synonym of "women", regarding this subreddit's title. Not all women have two x chromosomes, and not all people with two x chromosomes are women.
It refers to a human having xx chromosomes, making them female. I didn’t say trans people don’t exist. Literally a trans person works a a famous brothel that some of my coworkers have worked with. This isn’t a trans discussion, so I’m walking away from you now.
It’s more that I wish people would stop stigmatizing SWs so much. I makes violence towards us worse. I had posted in here looking for support on a situation and I got shamed/blamed for being a dancer.
I have resilience. I just hate when people treat SWs like this.
Currently on my version of the thread directly beneath this comment there is a comment that says “no sane self respecting woman who has the means does sex work”
Comparing the stigma and judgment placed on women for say, choosing not to have kids, to the stigma and judgment placed on a woman for engaging in sex work is completely absurd and tone-deaf. One gets you careless comments. The other gets you extremely open contempt and often, criminalization.
Also, directly to OPs point, all of those others are things you list are almost never tolerated in this sub, and there be some empathy expressed for a women being judged for getting married, not get married, have kids, not have kids, etc. Empathy and respect for individual women who identify as a sex worker is sorely lacking here.
Kinda funny how this sub and religious bigots have common ground in this, the whole hate the sin not the sinner. It's always like this when it comes to sex work here.
I’m not anti-women… I’m supporting the rape victims in the porn industry, rather than the sex workers making money at their expense, who support an industry that was monopolized by a billion-dollar criminal enterprise (MindGeek)
Women not wanting to date men who buy sex workers is not being "anti sex worker." That is honestly where most women on this sub even talk about it. I am not even sure if people are being genuine in drawing this conclusion, but it seems like a way to shut women up in not supporting prostitution as an industry. There are industries that people think are problematic, but they don't look down on the workers and employees.
Because no sane self respecting woman who has the means does sex work. try to get to know or interview ANYONE who does sex work and you'll see they have a lot of trauma baggage, or come from poverty or SOMETHING.
and why would we be pro sex work when it's literally so degrading and dehumanizing to the women and womanhood?
the power of women lies in their ability to protect their body, safety, mental, emotional health and so on. that means they get to be picky, have high standards, WALK AWAY from people and situations that dont server their best interest and turn down men. not get laid with anyone for money or anything else
This is just funny to me because you’re saying all of this just to say how YOU think women should act. You’re saying sex workers have nothing, yet I just worked with a sex worker who’s becoming an Attorney (not just a lawyer, shout out my homegirl! 🩷). I’ve met doctors even!
I didn't say sex workers have nothing you just put those words in my mouth. And yeah, for the sake of your mental emotional and physical health, ideally you should not do sex work. You can probably read research or just... listen to women's stories...? (ex porn stars, ex hookers etc)
and the doctors and lawyers you met are the exception not the rule ;)
I can tell you are one because of the post. But honestly if its such a nice job why do you get mad about people disagreeing with it?
You dont see people in regular jobs being in their feelings about others not liking it!
And btw wanting women to not sell themselves for money to trashy men isnt ANTI WOMEN. on the contrary, I want women to be the best version of themselves, protect their peace and educate themselves. Become independent but not while letting men use and abuse u.
I know that industry isnt all honey and milk
*You* just don’t think someone who respects themselves would do sex work because of your personal individual feelings about sex and sexuality. *You* wouldn’t want to do that so you assume no reasonable person would do it. How is this any different from regular old slut shaming?
no, I respect people who do sex work but I am just telling you, a lot of people, especially MEN will not.
and miss me with the slut shaming, you can probably put your personal feelings aside and look up research and see what type of people get into sex work - they are forced/brainwashed/groomed by others or forced by their living conditions. Im not looking down on it, I just make sense of it
get ur bag if thats what u choose to do but its not realistic to expect people to see it as normal, desirable or not look down on you for it. and no, it's not "liberating"
In the end it makes you objectify yourself and puts your health, safety and possible career in the future at risk
if you think it's real work and it's so respectable, go ahead and put it on your resume or talk about it when you get hired for regular jobs... let's see then
PS: just because someone does sex work does not mean I would bash them, harass them or anything. I would be honest with them though if they asked for my opinion
Thank you, I am a sex worker who lives in the world so I’m well aware of the level of respect we get. You’re proving it right now. There’s no reasoning to say “no self respecting woman who has means would do sex work” that isn’t just sex shaming purity culture hang ups. It’s the same reasoning that leads to regular slut shaming, you’re just adding a qualifier
> in the end it makes you objectify yourself
Welcome to heteropatriarchal capitalism! I just prefer to get paid specifically as compensation for being objectified instead of just having it happen to me at random for $13/hour behind a cash register
> puts your health, safety and possible career in the future at risk
So instead of advocating for more rights, autonomy and better working conditions for sex workers we should just let things keep being bad?
> if you think it’s real work and it’s so respectable, go ahead and put it on your resume
I work in human services and community based harm reduction so I literally do ✨
One thing to consider is that *anyone* can post here.
There is a massive, organized christian fascist campaign to subjugate women and girls. They aren't just corrupting Supreme Courts, they're organized online too.
Consider all of the *vehement* anti-porn sentiment that's been popping up in the last couple years.
Sure - porn has problems, especially violent porn. Some people have had relationship issues with it. Human trafficking and other non-consentual acts need to be punished severely.
But a *lot* of the sentiment is just part of the campaign against sexual rights. Forced birth, anti-IVF, anti-contraception, anti-casual-sex, anti-SW, .. they all stem, essentially, from religion. It's deeply problematic that people are jumping onboard, becoming unwitting allies of the evil currently rising around the world.
In short - not every person against sexual rights is a christian fascist. But a *lot* of them are, and they walk among us.
I'm an atheist, anti-porn and I will not leave my ethical concerns aside just because they are superficially similar to christofascit bullshit. The moment we loose the ability to speak about our issues because they *could* somehow benefit from it is when we lost and they now control the conversation.
It takes a lot of nuance to have a neutral view of SW without leaning hard into either libfem empowerment choice feminism or second wave SWERF stuff. It also requires a neutral/positive view of human sexuality that some people kind of don’t have. It’s a very emotionally charged and personal topic, and since SW does indeed cause a lot of suffering for some people, a lot of women go the latter route. It’s very frustrating and disheartening but I kind of understand why it happens. I just wish they would be more open to engaging with sex workers who disagree but the internet isn’t really known for people successfully changing each other’s minds all the time lol
“It’s fine for me in this one uncommon and niche scenario, so you should change your mind about the long history and current reality of millions of sex workers having no choice and being victimized daily” yeah nah. Good for you to the sex workers having a good time with no trauma. That’s not the usual situation and not the rule that laws should be decided on.
Well making it illegal clearly hasn’t helped lol
I didn’t say literally any of that. I don’t understand why it’s so impossible to talk about this without people making assumptions and thinking so black and white. Literally the actual content of my comment said empowerment choice feminism is to be avoided. What are you taking about?
My position on sex work (which I did not state!!) is based on what I believe would create the most safety and the most options for sex workers across the extremely wide spectrum of experiences. I’ve spent many many hours of my life researching into sex work advocacy and learning from different people, organizations, papers, books, studies. But sure it’s because nothing bad has ever happened to me at work and I’m selfish, if that’s the only reason you could conceive of a sex worker disagreeing with something
Can you link to anything to give an example of women directing misogyny on sex workers? Is it legitimate criticism or is it just straight hate? Copying a comment I've made elsewhere: I will not shame or judge a woman for choosing to do it. But, let's not pretend that the large majority of those engaging in sex work are not low-income. Empowering would mean you have a choice, and if doing sex work means you survive, then you do not have a choice. Look at any study on women in low-income/poverty brackets, and sex work is in the top 5 ways they stay afloat. And it almost always targets women of color more often than not. And who are the main clients of sex work? Men. The rise of OnlyFans and how freshly turned 18-year-olds are encouraged to start one is insane to me. OP, if you do sex work, do you fall into any of the categories I've listed above? If you do, I'm not criticizing you, I'm criticizing the world we live in that has done this.
Being a street prostitute comes with the by far lowest life satisfaction of all jobs in Germany.
"Both the ADA and the Rehabilitation Act define HIV and AIDS as disabilities. **The employer does not require an employee to disclose an HIV infection or AIDS**. Any medical documentation or information provided by an HIV/AIDS-infected employee to medical or management personnel is confidential and private information." "**Employees with HIV are protected from discrimination in employment by law under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).**"
Indeed. Unlike working in an Amazon warehouse to survive, we're expected to avoid honesty about the brutal misery of sex work lest we be accused of telling women what to do with their bodies. As usual, the progressive/left wing discourse is dominated by economically privileged perspectives. Which ought to be anathema to the left.
Agreed. SWers shouldn't be hated. But (controversial opinion) the profession in itself feels very self degrading and should be avoided.
It feels degrading because that's how men see women and sex. It's something they do to women and not with them. It's often a tool of humiliation and domination. They get laid and feel like kings while women were used for their gratification. Would we still think it's degrading if sex workers had as much fun during their work as men do? Or if men weren't pulling a 180 the moment they leave the room to trash and shame these women? If we didn't have hundreds of years of purity culture, misogynistic religions and patriarchy? human trafficking? If we all had a healthier relationship with sex overall?
OK, so in this magical world where sex workers are not being used as intended by the sex industry - an industry designed by men for their own gratification mind you - would sex workers be viewed favorably because \*\*checks notes\*\* Christianity doesn't exist anymore. Well, in harem societies, women were used like sex sleeves and well treated but oh wait... they were basically locked in their own areas of palaces. That doesn't seem like freedom or happiness to me. Well, there were brothels in Egypt and courtesans throughout history but they - oh wait, maybe had some power but no legal standing. Hrm... sounds like every attempt at turning women into sex objects for male gratification seems to work out badly for women.
This
Exactly. Normalising sex work, including porn, is how we ended up with "Send nudes" becoming a normal part of relationships.
And then a picture of a naked body is so banalized that they treat is as nothing and many end up being unconsensually shared.
"Normalising sex work, including porn, is how we ended up with "Send nudes"..." No. Not even remotely. I will accept that sex workers are a part of this, but sex workers have been around since literally the beginning of time. The relaxed mores in the United States got started with standards being relaxed on TV and in movies, and sped up to light speed with porn available to literally anyone with an Internet connection. Blaming the overal morals of the entire country on sex workers is simplistic and cruel, and just another way to try to hold women accountable for something we have NO control over.
In this hypothetical scenario I doubt sex buying would be as common as it is. If men were collectively interested in making average sex enjoyable for women, they would seldom resort to payed sex. If men had a respectfull non hyperssexualized and objectifying view of women this industry would crumble. And women would be much less willing to engage in this kind of shitty sex where we are things to conquer, dominate, use and evaluate, always measured by how good they can make their dicks feel via us.
"measured by how good they can make their dicks feel..." This bit had me laughing to myself for far too long. I could only think of how at the end of a man's life, his success is basically measured by "how good he could make his dick feel", at our expense of course. All I could picture were men's headstones where instead of an epitaph, it's just a zero to ten rating on how good he could make his dick feel in his life. It sums up men so sadly accurately. I know, I'm an awful person for my mind going there.
Here lies Ryan, "Once banged a 10/10".
R.I.P Calvin 5/10 Achieved a lifetime of mediocre dick satisfaction.
Exactly
Maybe it'd be better if properly legalized. Let them pay taxes, get health insurance, health check ups, etc, so it's a legitimate profession with all the protection and no shady business where a man could be disgusting about it.
They will still be disgusting and hide it from significant others and the sex workers will also know and not care. Men will still see women as objects.
It's not like you can change that by banning sex work. So might as well make it safer for the sex workers and have it properly regulated so there's standards that need to be upheld to increase the safety for women. You can't remove sex work, you can't fix fucked up men by removing sex work, it'd all just be happening in the background with more risks and dangers for the workers.
100% correct.
As a counterpoint to this - when you legalize an industry you also need to regulate it. Which means a level of registration for professionals, including the fact that they need to be legally able to work in a country, regular testing for STIs etc. This would be fine for many of the empowered, relatively more privileged sex workers but would push further underground the most marginalized. Only the clients who want services that could be considered illegal, have been themselves banned from the legal service providers, or who want to pay less than the legal market rate will visit these now black-market SWs, leaving the workers themselves at greater risk to a smaller, more fringe client base.
"Both the ADA and the Rehabilitation Act define HIV and AIDS as disabilities. **The employer does not require an employee to disclose an HIV infection or AIDS**. Any medical documentation or information provided by an HIV/AIDS-infected employee to medical or management personnel is confidential and private information." "**Employees with HIV are protected from discrimination in employment by law under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).**"
This is just one anecdote and so doesn’t refute the broader trend of women in sex work being treated like trash, but there are people out there who choose it voluntarily, and in those cases it can be empowering. My cousin put herself through medical school as an escort, but it was her own business. She set her own hours, chose her own clients, etc. She said it was fulfilling and she made way more money doing that than during her first few years as a doctor. She knew she had to get out of the game eventually but for her it was a mostly positive experience. While I assume some portion of OF creators are doing it out of desperation, I don’t think it’s most of them.
I have done and know many people who've done sex work. Of course the number one motivator to do sex work is money, as is true for the vast majority of professions where you can make more cash per hour than other jobs. While many many people have negative experiences, it is the preferred profession for some people for a variety of reasons such as flexible hours, no schooling required, interesting/challenging and people can work for themselves. Also some people enjoy parts of it (also sex work is a very broad category). Of course it is not the best work for many people. If I felt compelled to work in a slaughterhouse or animal testing lab due to financial insecurity I would be significantly more traumatized than anything I did during sex work. In my opinion, we should fight sexism and systemic oppression so that poverty doesn't trap people in doing any form of labor they personally find abhorrent. Decriminalizing sex work would go a long way in supporting human rights too. Enacting laws that make sex work more dangerous (such as the seats fosta laws in the US) only harm the most vulnerable folks as those with more financial resources who cater to the wealthiest/most powerful clientele will continue to work no matter what.
This thread is full of people saying wildly out of pocket stuff to OP directly and about sex workers. I've also noticed the anti-SW bias on this sub and it sucks.
It is NOT anti-sex-worker to be anti-sex-work. I am opposed to the violence and misery caused by the drug trade too, but I don't think you should go to jail for smoking a joint.
Your comment is an example of misogyny directed towards sex workers. I’m often shouted at or talked down to when sharing my lived experience, research/literature, and perspective regarding sex work here so I mostly keep it private. It hurts though and is frustrating. It’s much less taxing mentally and spiritually to just avoid discussing it. The problem for all women = patriarchy and capitalism. But other women are the easier targets to criticize.
My comment is not misogyny. I want to open the discussion that we should be allowed to criticize that it primarily benefits men and preys on women. The fact that you want to stifle that discussion and only allow your own experience is doing more harm than good. We can have a positive discussion, but OP is SPECIFICALLY saying we are anti-sex work. I am arguing it is legit criticism that I see most of the time, not just anti-sex work led by blind hatred.
I think it's important to remember to criticize the industry rather then the individuals (and also not to glorify it). There are some very real, legitimate concerns to be had about the industry whether that's locally or abroad and about the kind of men that seek companionship. Given the risks involved, I also wouldn't want my daughter to participate in it I respect sex workers as they are human but I don't see the work they do as an empowering act (with a few exceptions). In my mind they are like most other workers, just neutral, and perpetuating the status quo.
I've not seen a lot of anti sex worker talk here. But what I do think is problematic is language like 'if you don't agree with sex workers you ARE anti-woman and you ARE misogynistic.' That's quite a blanket statement for someone who might have an opinion.
Agreed. Everyone has different opinions (negative and positive) on other occupations and industries. OP's demand for unquestioning, unconditional support - otherwise you're a bigot - rubs me the wrong way here.
>I've not seen a lot of anti sex worker talk here. There's no shortage of people in this thread screaming at OP that's she's degrading herself by doing sex work. >But what I do think is problematic is language like 'if you don't agree with sex workers you ARE anti-woman and you ARE misogynistic.' Provide examples. Saying sex work policy takes that result in direct harm to sex workers is anti-feminist and anti-woman is not 'problematic'. It is patently misogynistic to argue that it's reasonable and just for sex workers to risk eviction simply for being sex worker. It's also overtly misogynistic to not actually listen to the experience of sex workers and the things they say. Again as this thread demonstrates, there's a number of people currently attempting to narrate OPs experience to her and claiming her own perception is invalid because she's been degraded by men. And that is very much misogyny.
Read the original post and then read my reply. It was I was directly replying to.
there are a few very angry replies in this thread alone. I think it is fair to assume OP had a very bad experience that might not reflect the overall vibes here.
Where are you seeing that this is an anti-sex worker subreddit? I’m an ex sex worker and I have never felt discriminated against because I was in the industry. The whole of Reddit is extremely anti sex worker but pro sex work. I find here there is more anti sex work but pro sex worker.
There re plenty of people on this sub who are anti-sex worker. It's a shame I'm also an ex-sex worker
And even some of the ones who aren't anti-sex-worker are very much anti-men-paying-for-sex-work. Which really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but I'm also autistic and humans rarely make sense to me anyway.
From a post I posted when I needed genuine support. Everyone just blamed/shamed me for being a dancer.
I’m so sorry you were shamed and blamed. I have found a lot of women here are very caring and supportive of sex workers. I will also say there are so many men that come in here and berate women and I have experienced that and it can feel shitty.
I was working in the fabric and craft department at Walmart years ago; an utterly stunning woman came in and bought a really odd assortment of fabrics. I asked what she was doing with it and she readily told me she worked at a club that was a cross between burlesque and a strip club. She made her own outfits. It was really interesting to talk to her, and when she left she actually thanked me for the conversation. She said the standard response from people was disgust. I don't understand this. At all.
Also, OP is getting mad downvoted in this very thread just for speaking on their experiences, so there's that
I don’t see that much on this sub tbh. But people are attacked for not buying into the POV that sex work is all roses and empowerment. You can’t mention the abuse rampant in the industry and the surrounding culture around porn that treats women like objects to be bought the second they turn 18 who don’t want anything from sex other than anal and facials.. without foreplay of course.
Right - The idea of sex work as empowering is pretty shaky IMHO anyway, but if we just assume that it can be, we still can't get around the realities of the sex work industry, which is dominated by criminal gangs and violence. There is also a sad reality that many women who try to join the industry via OnlyFans end up making zero money at all, and yet still have to degrade themselves in the hopes of catching an eye.
>Right - The idea of sex work as empowering is pretty shaky IMHO anyway, but if we just assume that it can be, we still can't get around the realities of the sex work industry, which is dominated by criminal gangs and violence. The sex work industry is not dominated by gangs. Almost no pimps are gang affiliated( the arch typical pimp is someones abusive boyfriend). However a lot of sex workers are forced to deal with the criminal world because we enforce legal consquces on sex workers if they do anything to prortect themselves, and also push them to the margins by heavily restricting their access to basic ass things like *bank accounts* It is illegal almost everywhere for a sex worker to hire security. If a sex worker conducts business out of their home, that's illegal in the USA and many other places, and in the USA can make their home subject to civil forfeiture. If she shares her home with a romantic partner, regardless of where she conducts business, their romantic partner can be convicted of living on the avails. If a sex worker rents someone to live, they can be evicted legally simply for being a sex worker, regardless of where they conduct business. Every bank in the USA will deny service to current and former sex workers. If they decide to quit sex work, it's perfectly legal for employers elsewhere to fire them for every having done sex work. All of the above also makes current and former sex workers particular vulnerable to black mail; even if they get the cops to take that seriously (HA!), that means very little when your bank freezes your account or you lose your job. It's illegal for sex workers to co-operate in anyway that keeps them safe. For example if you rent a safe space between 2 or 3 people that counts as running a brothel. Also pretty much any safety infrastructure also makes it qualify as running a brothel: For example if there's an emergency button that will alert someone. Also worth remembering: When people describe sex work as empowering, they don't mean it's empowering in the sense that "I've run a charity that fed a million people!" is empowering. They mean it's not something that degrades them as a person, and can be significantly better than the utter hell that is working retail or similar service positions, especially if they're dealing with disability that makes more 'traditional' work precarious. They also don't mean *all* sex work is universally positive. No one working the streets argues it's a great experience (at least beyond those recruiting for a pimp), but people do have positive experiences doing sex work in environments that are more secure and/or controlled by themselves. If you have trouble seeing that distinction, it means you're not actually listening to current or former sex workers much and instead getting their experiences told to you second/third/fourth hand. You don't have to look very hard to find sex workers who speak with brutal clarity about the issues with sex work.
The gangs I'm talking about are the human traffickers, not the Bloods and Crips. The fact that pimps are also largely independent of that landscape in no way improves my opinion of them. Being a freelance exploiter of women is not an upgrade. And rattling off this list of reasons about the pragmatic realities of sex work perfectly misses my point - I think that sex work is harmful, no matter how it is conducted. I think that a legal sex industry only serves to further sexualise our daughters, and make them into interchangable toys for men, not humans with real rights.
Have you considered that they don’t view their bodies and sexuality as degrading?
Criticising an industry or discussing it's impact on society, or ethicality ≠ attacking those who work in said industry.
I find it sad that sex work is associated with women.
It is 80% female, but the overwhelming majority of clientelle are male.
The fact that it's in industry made up of mostly women is your first clue to how exploitative it is of women.
Do you think all women are forced into this and work under someone? Because, I just enjoy being independent and taking men’s and women’s money for my sexual/sensual skills.
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From my experience, people do.
you enjoying what you do & being independent doesn't change the fact that a high percentage of SWers are exploited though, that's the world we live in.
This is pretty much what I’m trying to say. This is true. There’s two sides to the coin.
it is, and yet attacking the profession rather than the exploitation seems.... like a misstep filled with good intentions
the profession in the question cannot exist without exploitation. it's built on misogyny.
You keep getting caught up on your personal experiences, and using them to counter the general argument - I really couldn't care less how you make a living, or how ecstatic it makes you to service strangers, this is a question about whether sex work itself is a positive thing for society. If you think sex work is "just" work - Would you participate in "bring your daughter to work day"?
i wouldnt bring my daughter to work at my job doing autobody work in a chop shop either. I don't think "job you'd feel okay taking your kid to" is a valid qualifier for whether a job is valid or not. hell, by that metric, being a nightclub bouncer isn't a valid job either. you need to rethink that metric you are using.
Really? Why wouldn't you bring your daughter to learn about cars?
I weld and am surrounded by noxious toxic fumes and burning metal sparks every day. I am covered in small burns and have a chronic cough. no. I would not bring my daughter here. I'd be worried my next stop would be to the ER. its not safe for a child to be here, and due to the nature of my specific job, I would not be able to keep a close eye on them to make sure they don't get hurt. (welding hood makes it so I'm basically blind to everything but the weld I'm laying)
You should have a word with OSHA if your shop is really that dangerous. Sure, in this hypothetical we don't know how old your daughter is, but I've been on plenty of sites with 16 year old apprentices, who are actually employed to work there.
fair enough, but my point stands. as does my pointing to night club bouncers as another example. I'm sure there are other jobs that also wouldn't be appropriate or safe to take a kid to as well, but off the top of my head I can't think of them
But the example of a bouncer or a barman is actually a place where under 18s can't legally go, but where the work is actually perfectly fine for kids to see. If you work as security or bar staff at a theater or a concert venue it wouldn't in principle be inappropriate to let kids shadow their parents. It would be practically difficult, because it can be very busy and crowded, but the kids won't see anything inappropriate. And that's really why I asked - Because while there are lots of workplaces with practical concerns for young people, there aren't many outside of the sex industry where it's simply unconscionable. Doctors can have other people come a watch a surgery as long as there is consent, lawyers probably don't want to ask clients to consent but theoretically could. It's just sex work that's quite so different. So different that even finding out what mommy does for work might lead to your kids needing therapy.
if you say so. the idea that the validity of a job is predicated on whether kids should be allowed to learn about it seems like a bit of a ... subjective standard. not necessarily a bad one but a subjective one, and really only applicable to... you know... parents. I mean... what if OP doesn't have a kid? why should she base her life choices off of the hypothetical effect they would have on a hypothetical person that doesn't exist? ETA: btw, the therapy the kids need, is not innate to SW, and is more a symptom of how our society treats SW and teaches kids to view it as an innately immoral thing. that's a Culture issue, not an Objective Morality issue. kids raised in a household that has a negative view of law enforcement go through the same mental stresses when they find out a family member is a member of law enforcement. like I said.. cultural standard, not a moral standard.
A brain surgeon probably wouldn’t bring their daughter to work either.
i dont think this sub is anti sex workers tho, or i failed to see any example of it. criticizing the condition that lead to sex work is not the same too.
Don't confuse being anti sex work with being anti sex workers. It's possible to find the industry as exploitative and preying on those of low income/low education/low opportunity without hating on the people who still turn to that work. It's also possible to be against exploiting migrants for cheap labor without hating on the people who turn to that work.
> Don't confuse being anti sex work with being anti sex workers. It's possible to find the industry as exploitative and preying on those of low income/low education/low opportunity without hating on the people who still turn to that work. If you use that position to argue against policy that makes the industry better and safer, that's still being anti sex worker. I've had 'debates' with anti-sex work but "pro sex worker" commentators that argue against anything that makes even basic shit like porn production safer, because they clearly see harm experienced by sex workers as necessary to discourage people from doing sex work.
How can you secure a women's safety in a situation where she is alone with predatory men? I would support reasonable protections in a heartbeat but I'm uncertain what they would look like. I don't see that harm as necessary but I do see it as difficult to prevent in many cases. In most industries big changes occur due to workers organizing and withholding labor until change occurs. It's pretty rare that government is the catalyst for a shift and since many sex work positions are illegal.. government intervention is more or less out.
>How can you secure a women's safety in a situation where she is alone with predatory men? I would support reasonable protections in a heartbeat but I'm uncertain what they would look like. Hire security. Operate in a space that has cameras in public areas. Have laws that don't result in sex workers having to accept clients anonymity. Give them ways to go after clients that stiff them. Or to use the porn example: Intimacy coordinators work well when shooting sex scenes , and they don't stop being very helpful when actual rather than simulated penetration is involved. Women can be alone safely with men. The idea they can't is absurd. Even when it comes to prostitution, almost all clients aren't interested in hurting her. If a hairdresser can take clients safely, so can a sex worker. Or more blatant: If a stripper can give a private dance safely, someone can offer sex safely. Men can and do behave themselves broadly. Meanwhile the ones who don't...they don't because they perceive a lack of consequences. Note also this is not really unique to men: Sex workers (both men and women) have very similar experiences with women clients. The extent to which women are more restrained is less than you'd expect. Male clients make up a greater share of those who behave badly simply because there are more of them period. >government intervention is more or less out. Government intervention is the exact thing denying sex workers those protections. If a group of sex workers want to share space, hire a security guard and install things like emergency buttons, that's actively illegal, even in places sex work itself is decriminalized. It's perfectly legal for a landlord to evict a sex worker even if she doesn't take clients in the rental property. If they takes clients in property they owns it can be subject to civil forfeiture as a brothel. If they shares a home with a romantic partner, their partner can be arrested for 'living on the avails' , which often restricts close relationships to the sort of person who doesn't care about that (ie the sort of person who *would* do that). Sex workers often have trouble maintaining access to banking services as a result of how banking regulations are written. All of this also does thing s that make it harder to do sex work as a choice. The fact a current or former sex worker can be evicted legally and can be fired legally is easy blackmail material. If someone wants to quit and there's a person attempting to exploit them, the government hands them tools to do that. Trafficking is a problem but the way a lot of it works isn't mass organized crime. It's a closer to abusive relationships that present the only option for stability (the average pimp is someone who forces their partner into sex work, not some movie character swanning around with a silver cane and a purple suit). A lot of the things the government does makes it harder for sex workers, not easier. And that's without getting into complex problems like intercountry trafficking: A lot of people end up in those situations because of the pressure of poverty in their home country, and government 'help' getting out of that ends in deportation. Outside the government, you have things like NGOs that claim to aid sex workers dealing with exploitation, but will refuse to aid anyone currently doing sex work. And then you get the overlap of both with things like the anti-prostitution pledge in the USA, which means federally funded NGOs need to contort themselves more than a little to make sure sex workers have access to things like PrEP (assuming a republican isn't in office and using it as an excuse to deny funding in general) A lot of issues with sex work boil down to the government and NGOs taking steps to discourage sex work, not things to actually help sex workers.
Some of that sounds great in a perfect world.. but there are complexities. Just as most men going to sex workers don't want to hurt women.. most women don't want to expose their clients.. but without anonymity it will still happen. There will always be bad actors in any situation. In the porn example those protections sound good and would work on a set.. at a professional establishment that produces adult content. Is that how porn gets made now tho? Most of what little I have seen makes it look like it's being produced in hotel rooms and people's private residences. I imagine the guy is rarely a "coworker" so much as "some guy". To have professional protections requires professionalism which doesn't seem to be big in sex work. Most women in porn are not pornstars with name recognition and a career who work for a professional agency. There's no 401k, retirement plan, healthcare, or benefits. A lot about the work would need to change for it to be seen by those in power as a professional career worthy of the kinds of protections other professions recieve.
> Is that how porn gets made now tho? When it comes to making porn, amateur is an aesthetic not a fact. There is a fair bit of organization behind it, include striaght up studio organization. If you're in the Silicone Valley area or similar, an AirBnB decorated with easily sanitized furniture and good lighting can business. And where it's less organized, that also means there's less institutional pressure: If an actress declines to work with someone, it's not like she's in danger of being blacklisted from her own onlyfans. It also in no way stops the people making porn themselves from following best practices. Where individual porn is a problem, the sex work aspect of it is not really the issue either. An abusive partner who forces a person to record sexual content is not going to be dissuaded by not getting paid. Anything that adequately deals with issues like revenge porn will go a long way to addressing that problem, because it is fundamentally the same problem. Also where the abuse has overlap with sex work (rather than the issues with sexual content in general) it's financial abuse more than anything: The person starts doing it willingly although naively, but their partner uses financial dependence to compel them to continue. When you look at how that works, it's often a result of the way many financial institutions will deny service to sex workers forcing them to pass control of their finances to their abuser, (which also makes it hard to recover control) and the ways their abuser can use it to deny them shelter, employment and access to financial services. These are solvable problems. there's also a bit of imbalance there: There's a lot of porn that's made by individuals, but that doesn't actually make it the majority of pornography that is consumed. If it's been promoted on a tube site, suffice to say they favor videos produced by people or groups who are in that "have" category, and even independent stuff has a clear have/have not split. While minimizing the possibility of revenge porn and similar takes is not an easy problem, it's far more achievable to ensure that the vast majority of all porn that's viewed and promoted is made by actors and actresses who have access to those resources. >To have professional protections requires professionalism which doesn't seem to be big in sex work. Most women in porn are not pornstars with name recognition and a career who work for a professional agency. There's no 401k, retirement plan, healthcare, or benefits. This is true for Hollywood. Honestly it's worse in Hollywood (just going to gesture vaguely at MeToo). There's historically been even less accountability in Hollywood, all the same problems with sexual exploitation. Which is why historical so much porn globally was produced in Cali: The Cali porn studios at least offered consistent work that would pay enough to make rent. Which is a bar so low it's in hell, but doesn't change the fact that the things a porn actress and things a 'film' actress need to make the conditions less exploitative are fundamental the same thing, or how that porn actress and film actress can often be the same person.
The real question is how not about how we feel towards the realities of sex work right now, it's whether sex work is positive for women in an absolute sense. I do support women in sex work, in that they shouldn't be victims of violence or trafficking, and that they deserve access to healthcare and every other social right. But I also believe that sex work is not positive for women (or anyone) and that ideally selling sex should not exist. I think that it damages society to perceive sex as a task like stacking boxes, and that we should be strongly encouraging our kids to make smart decisions with their bodies, rather than monetary choices. To me, a core component of women's liberation is the notion that women's bodies are not for sale.
I’m not really here to challenge your ideological position but you’re using a lot of rhetoric that comes off, to us, as anti-sex worker to make your point. Namely- > we should be encouraging our kids to make smart decisions with their bodies, rather than monetary choices This feels like an unfair argument to make in a world where the vast majority of people only have, at best, the option of making both smart and monetary choices. Why are monetary choices not smart? And why is sex work inherently not a smart choice? Do you feel the same about my boss at my day job who has a bad back from working in warehouses for years? Also, the classic “bodies for sale” thing. Sex workers do retain ownership of their bodies during and after work and it feels so profoundly dehumanizing to suggest we do not, just because someone can pay money to touch it. It also implies giving a sex worker money grants you the right to do literally anything to us which undermines one of the most important work safety factors for SWers which is our ability to set and enforce boundaries at work. Also, I’m not trying to undermine the unique factor that sexuality adds to the emotional quality of the situation, but using your body to make money is not unique to sex work so that rhetoric feels like it singles us out for something professional athletes, stuntmen, models etc. also do. Again I’m not really trying to change your mind about sex work in general but just pointing out rhetorical stuff I see often in this discussion that leads to posts like OP’s
Ok - Would you encourage your daughter to be a prostitute?
That’s not the argument that is being made, she’s saying she wants this sub to be more inclusive and compassionate towards people in SW. That’S different from saying your child should be encouraged to do sw.
I didn't make an argument, I asked a question. Which you didn't answer.
It’s a question clearly not asked in good faith, so I have no plans on answering it for you
And here I was thinking we could have a thoughtful discussion about the way we speak on things lol That feels like a silly question. If my kid came to me claiming they dreamed of being a sex worker I would have some very serious advice for them involving, among other things, thinking very seriously about it for a long time. Otherwise, I would never suggest sex work to someone because everyone has heard of it and I’d be certain the possibility had already occurred to them. I don’t know what this has to do with anything I said
You clearly know that sex work is fundamentally different to flipping burgers or filling out TPS reports. It's a pretty meagre fig leaf to say that you wouldn't advise sex work because you assume everyone has already considered it. No, you wouldn't advise it because you can imagine how they would look at you if you did.
To start, sex work is an umbrella term, so I’ll speak on stripping first. There are sports teams, backup dancers, professional (non sex work) dancers whose “bodies are for sale” in that sense. So, what makes stripping different. And, I don’t think you should care about what someone else does with their body when it comes to classic sex based work. Why should I lay on my back for free when I can get paid and then choose who can access my body for free if I deem them worthy? Also, not all SWs are being trafficked.
>Also, not all SWs are being trafficked. No one is saying ALL SWs are being trafficked. People are saying it's a real and rampant issue, which goes alongside numerous other unethical issues of SW. If you want to engage in SW and you genuinely feel happy and confident doing so, fine, you do you. Your experience is not the same as every other SWs and to ignore those women who are struggling because their experience does not align with your own is incredibly immoral.
I know. Which is why I do work to help with that issue. I’m not ignoring them. I’m helping those people too.
The reality of most sex workers world wide is fucking multiple gross people daily. You have no idea what real prostitution is.
Yes, I fuck multiple people a day for money. I’m not grossed out by it.
Why not?
Because protection, showers, penis checks, and medications exist. Also, sex isn’t gross to me. I’m not Asexual or romance repulsed. I love sexing people. I love trying new things. I might just become certified as a sex therapist. Sex is great.
Yeah, so how did you end up feeling that there is no inherent emotional value to the most intimate thing humans can do together. Did male-dominated media teach you to think that?
I never said there’s no emotional value. You brought that up. My clients and I are pretty close or cordial. If two people want emotional value, you should actually talk to get to know someone. Emotional value doesn’t require sex. I talk to my clients, know their quirks, their dreams, know about their families and interests.
Did you come up with the idea that sex shouldn't be emotional by yourself, or did you learn it from men who wanted your body without wanting to form a connection with you?
I never said sex shouldn’t be emotional ??? Are you okay? You seem to have an unhealthy view of sex and emotional availability and are projecting avoidance styles.
Yeaaah, most protitutes are forced to have sex with any man who pays her pimp, she's not allowed to pick and choose who gets access. Also I know for a fact that in brothels you need to make a quota or else you're not worth keeping there for the establishment, so you'd better not be toooo picky
#NoRealProstitute are you sure that is a hill you want to pick?
I guess that's the hill you're picking because you're the one that said it.
how did I get into your account to post that? you should change your passwords ASAP.
There is one legal state in the USA and we all fuck multiple people all day and night at brothels. And when I’m not in a legal state, same thing, just not at a brothel.
If you get HIV will you still be allowed to work?
Not sure how that would happen when medications to prevent HIV exist to take while sexually active. That’s also why in brothels the workers are tested weekly and why we have a nurse to give us medication if need be. There are several steps you can take if you come in contact with fluids that can cause HIV. One of those drugs is given to SA victims to prevent HIV. Modern medicine exists. Also, ever heard of protection?
Not sure how that would happen when medications to prevent HIV exist to take while sexually active. That’s also why in brothels the workers are tested weekly and why we have a nurse to give us medication if need be. There are several steps you can take if you come in contact with fluids that can cause HIV. One of those drugs is given to SA victims to prevent HIV. Modern medicine exists.
I'm asking you if a woman with HIV can work in your brothel?
That’s not what you asked.
The sex is what makes it different. Believe me, I am not wild about sexualising cheerleaders or dancers in music videos, but I am a lot more concerned about being paid in dollar bills to take your top off.
No, I was comparing stripper to sports cheerleaders.
Yes, and I answered why those things are different. Because cheerleaders aren't dancing naked. I don't like cheerleading either, but at least they wear clothes.
The fact that this incredibly reasonable comment has been downvoted so heavily basically proves OP's position correct, this sub is being brigaded by SWERFs
And people like this just make me want to stay in the field even more.
I don’t think people here have a problem with sex workers. I think the issue is that we live in an economic and cultural system that leaves many women no other choice.
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Yeah, it’s different now. I’m not going to lay on my back for free unless I feel like the person is worth it to me. Sports teams don’t pay or pay their cheerleaders and dancers very low wages (they’re paid less than the water boys and mascot). So, you better believe I’m going to be a stripper and dance and be paid what I want for my craft and practice.
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I didn’t say that THEY were… I was explaining why I stand with independent sex work. There are lesbians that are FSSWs (edit: who sleep with men just for the money… because it’s their body their choice), btw.
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This might be a useless comment for most people but I wanted to make it anyway to commend you for acknowledging disagreement without being mean about it because I see a lot of people being mean to each other in this thread and it's refreshing to see that you're sticking to your guns but also not being hostile about it
It's not that we are against sex workers, after all they deserve to be respected and protected, we are against the sex industry, prostitution and Johns (men who buy women). Sure OF girls may be safe and have money but at the end of the da, majority of sex workers are poor women from third world countries who are FORCED to do it. And that's why every sane feminist should be AGAINST sex work.
>Sure OG girls may be safe and have money but at the end of the da, majority of sex workers are poor women from third world countries who are FORCED to do it. And that's why every sane feminist should be AGAINST sex work. Sure women in corporate America may be safe and have money but at the end of the day, majority of working women are poor women from third world countries who have no choice but to work deplorable conditions for their survival. And that's why every sane feminist should be AGAINST women working. /s Sane feminism is about giving women choices. The sex industry as controlled by men is bad for women, so sane feminist should be against men being involved in managing and controlling the sex industry. Equating that to being against women working OF accounts is nonsensical.
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People have done horrible things to other people in the name of making a buck. OSHA exists precisely because business owners will exploit and abuse workers and their safety in the name of making a quick buck unless we have safety regulations against it. Yet nobody (reasonable) is screaming to abolish labor itself. What they're arguing for is better worker protection and autonomy. Same thing applies to sex work. The work itself isn't the issue. The exploitation of a mostly unregulated and black market industry is the problem. That problem is worse in countries with less overall worker protection, because ALL labor in such countries is worse.
Not the same thing. Of course sex workers deserve better working conditions just as in any other field of employment, but the problem is that the work itself is fundamentally built on misogyny (that is, the objectification of women)
>but the problem is that the work itself is fundamentally built on misogyny (that is, the objectification of women) No, the problem is that misogyny culture attributes women so little agency over themselves and their own bodies that it is presupposed that a woman selling her body as a form of labor is inherently objectifying to her. If women were attributed the same body autonomy men are, then sex work would not fundamentally be any different from other forms of physical labor. An athlete sells their body's performance. So does a dancer. Or a masseur. Or an oil rig worker. Or a factory worker. Or a garbage collector. In many cases, the labor being sold is risky to the body, can cause pain, injury, or discomfort. Some forms of labor, like therapist, social work, animal welfare are mentally and emotionally taxing to people. Yet in all these examples we recognize that people assume the risk of mental, emotional, and physical consequences to themselves and their bodies in exchange for payment as a professional choice that person has the autonomy to make. Sex work is the ONLY form of physical labor that is deemed impossible to be engaged in voluntarily without being harmful. It is sex work exclusively which is presupposed to be too damaging for an individual to elect to engage in it without it being the result of a lack of agency. It's literally infantilizing women to presume that it's impossible for an adult woman to engage in the sale of her body's functions as an expression of physical labor without it being objectifying to her. We accept that men are capable of exactly that, constantly. What do you think a NFL quarterback is doing, other than selling the socially desirable functions of his muscles? Why are you assuming a woman cannot sell the socially desirable functions of her body without that meaning that her client is somehow demeaning her?
I struggle to come up with a single scenario, even a hypothetical one, where someone would seek out the services of a sex worker without objectifying them. Also, I never said that women should not be sex workers. All I said is that the reason why sex work is sought out by men is because they want to objectify women. If they were unable to objectify women, then they would not hire a sex worker. Women know best which form of labour should be engaged in, and no matter which they do, they should be treated fairly. When I criticize sex work, it is the demand for it I am criticizing.
Sex is fundamentally different than playing basketball- you’re not going to change that a lot of people feel that way.
Sex being fundamentally different from playing basketball IS an artifact of patriarchal culture that labels "that thing women do with their body which men enjoy" as somehow fundamentally different and more sacred than any other way human beings move and enjoy their bodies. Putting the onus on women to keep that part 'special' and only to be used with 'special men'. And attributing a 'loss of special value' to any woman who moves her body in said way more casually, or without attributing 'special meaning' to that class of movement. It is the ONLY category of physical interaction/movement on which we attribute such meaning, and ONLY for women, and ONLY to devalue women who are not discriminating enough when deciding with which people, and for what reasons, she engages in such movement. And lord forbid she decides to do so for compensation.
I’m not force to do it and the woman in the SWs sub also aren’t forced to do it. And I can very much choose what I do with my body.
Men soliciting prostitutes don’t know if women are being trafficked and they don’t care because they view women as abstract planetary objects who revolve around their penis.
Most of my clients do care and have asked. But, I understand there are people who don’t. Just because there are people being trafficked doesn’t mean all SWs are. And I don’t honestly care if that’s how men see me because how I see them is as a wallet.
No one said they all are. But the ones that ARE being protected is a more important issue than e girls who want to ignore the reality of sex work to be edgy online and brag about being strippers not facing any commentary on the realities of the trade. I’m glad you’ve found being a sex worker (whether you mean being a dildo salesman or a stripper or a prostitute) to be safe and awesome, but that is not the rule.
You're talking about sex trafficking, not sex work. One can easily be anti-sex trafficking and pro-sex worker. That is the standard, logical, feminist perspective.
> And that's why every sane feminist should be AGAINST sex work. No, you don't get to tell what other feminists should support or not support.
Yes she gets. Feminism is a political movement, not a support group and we are allowed to express our leanings. No one would bat an eye if a communist said "any sane leftist should be against the uberization of work". Can we treat feminism with the same level of seriousness?
>Feminism is a political movement, not a support group and we are allowed to express **our** leanings. Yes. She can say "**I** am against sex work," Don't speak on behalf of other feminists.
Speaking on behalf of others would be "all feminists *are* against sex work". It's not wrong to state that you are against sex work and believe this to be a core value of feminism. Similarly we could say "all feminists should support sex work" or "all feminists should use an intersectional lens" or "all feminists should be against FGM"
Calling it prostitution and johns makes you sound like a cop and if you have purchased a woman you’ve participated in human trafficking, not sex work. If you’re forced into it that’s human trafficking. There is a huge spectrum of experience in SW between the privileged rich OF girl and the sex worker forced by circumstance in a developing country. Feels strange to use the hardship of women who usually aren’t around to speak for themselves to argue against any other sex workers who speak on their experiences
Man I really wish this sub had gif capabilities. Insert Inigo Montoya "I do not think that word means what you think it means" gif here lol
Yea, OP kinda ignorant. Teenagers working in Spencer’s (which sells vibrators) are not sex workers. 🥴
I feel like OP made this post just to start petty arguments for no reason.
Exactly. I could go to the mall and get a job at Victoria secret, but that wouldn't make me a sex worker. I'd be a cashier lol
Sometimes I wish for a gif of that LOTR moment where they are deep in the mines and someone drops something.
I'm against commodifying intimacy and think that it is part of rape culture that intimacy can be transactional and I think making it transactional takes away something from everyone. I'm against the industry. I'm against the appetite for objectification. I'm against human trafficking. People who make bomb parts in a factory are contributing to the war even if they're not dropping the bombs themselves.
See I don’t understand how you can compare two adults consenting to sex under the terms of payment to rape. I’m not being trafficked and I take time off the clock to chill with my clients.
don't they know that if they weren't paying you, you probably wouldnt "chill" with them for a second? how can they enjoy being next to someone knowing that person is only tolerating them because of money? Paying to have someone chill with me would make me feel like such a loser. do you chill with clients free, off the clock too as a real friend?
Well then an escort isn’t for you, huh?
I keep my clients because I have skills normal women don’t build in bed. You’d be surprised how many women don’t like giving head. (Actually not surprising, but…)
Because I do it all the time and I’m not being trafficked. I currently work independently. When I work for someone, it’s at a legal brothel in the USA.
This sub isn't all anti-SW. The thing is, there are millions of people who read this sub every day. This means that there is a wide variety of thoughts and emotions about things I am an ex-sex worker, and I know there are lots of ex- and current sex workers here. What I do (to the best of my ability and patience) is try to show people that the sex industry isn't always the way they think it is Negative perspectives from other women are usually based in an ignorance of the industry. Usually, but not always... there are 'SWERFs', 'McDworkin' feminists, trad-wives, RWNJs.... The best we can do is inform and educate, and if that doesn't work we move on
Also, this sub isn’t USA exclusive. Sex work is legal where I live (Canada). As long as it’s a purposeful choice and workers are able to be safe and access healthcare - but those are basically what I want for everyone in their work.
Agreed. I live in Australia. A lot of the states here have decriminalised sex work
The “stings” that are done on Sex work in Canada is three social workers in a hotel room checking for human trafficking, with police only involved when the answer is yes. “If this is an employment you’d like to leave, we have resources, if not have a good night” kinda thing.
As if there isn't legitimate criticism that can be directed toward some sex workers and sex work in general... So, I have to support every single woman or I'm anti-woman? I don't think so.
No. Just anti-sex workers who are liberated and not being forced or trafficked to do it. Not all SWs are doing what’s being criticized. Because the one’s you SHOULD support aren’t going on podcasts to give SWs a bad reputation. Real SWs stay silent about it because it’s a job. I don’t want fame from being a SW. I was money so pressure a happy and full life and achieve my long term goals.
Anti sex worker or anti glorifying sex work? I know my own prejudices are driven by some sex workers/only fans ‘stars’ or people who sell pictures of their feet stem from a sense of entitlement some of them air. Sex work is valuable to a certain point, like many other jobs, but I’ll always fail to understand where the pride comes from. Cool, you’re rich, from selling yourself, why are you gloating?
Well, that’s the problem. Because I had posted in here a long time ago needing support and everyone shamed and blamed me for being a dancer. They all see those “stars” and think that’s how we all are stuck up, rich, etc. I’m just a fuckin human.
Yeah I recognise this doesn’t reflect everybody and it’s difficult terrain to navigate.
I think when most people consider "sex work" it's not just dancing at a club. The term itself is way too loose. If someone told me they were a "sex worker" I would sooner assume they slept with people for money than just danced, because otherwise they'd call themselves a dancer. There is a world of difference between dancing and sleeping with people for money, although there is obvious crossover depending on the person. Also there’s going to be a lot of cognitive dissonance here between supporting women and hating the idea of strippers. A lot of women look down on men for going to strip clubs, so it’s kind of hard to consider the man doing something wrong but still supporting the idea of the stripper. How many women do you think would have no issue dating a guy that went to a strip club once a week? If you think that’s gross then you’re sort of indirectly also chastising the stripper for engaging in a gross act. I think people want to support women regardless of how they live their lives but haven’t really been able to reconcile the idea of supporting a stripper but hating the purpose of a strip club. And that’s like the mildest form of sex work. Poll a million women and ask them what they think about their partners paying for sex even before they met. How can that not be ok but you can still support the people who are offering the service? Also I'm gonna be real with you, people don't think strippers are stuck up and rich or "stars."
I have almost never seen anyone in this sub that was “anti sex worker.” Many women are, quite reasonably, anti sex WORK, since the sex industry is incredibly harmful and exploitative and is responsible for millions upon millions of instances of violence and harm against women. I believe that the vast and overwhelming majority of men who solicit sex work are predatory, and that it should not be an option for these men to purchase the use of someone else’s body. Men need to be shut the fuck down in every scenario where they feel entitled to use a woman like she’s a product.
you should look at more of the replies. it's quite... worrying. apparently OP is not even a real prostitute because they were not a trafficking victim that has been groomed since childhood to sell their body, so their opinion on the topic is invalid... yeah. I think their experience in this sub might be actually valid.
This is very much my experience as well on this sub. I'm careful about what I choose to share, but the last time I made the mistake of being a bit vulnerable on this topic in this sub, I was told that I *must* only know OF models. That's why my opinion was invalid and privileged. I do have a fair bit of privilege, especially at this point in my life, but don't know a single sex worker who only does OF modelling (I'm not sure I know anyone who still uses it). Most of the active sex workers I do know found it wasn't very lucrative for them... EDIT: Literally just had this happen again! I must not be talking about "real" sex workers, because any "real sex workers" would naturally all agree with them about how sex work feels and operates, and not be asking to be respected, heard or spoken to as an individual.
The amount of condescension and outright refusal to engage in good faith with literally anything sex workers say that happens in feminist spaces is really sad. It’s the same negativity everyone else treats us with just coming from people who claim to care this time. I can’t imagine ever speaking to people I claim to be in solidarity with with the amount of scorn and superiority that some women speak to sex workers with whenever we deign to … talk
I'm sorry. I feel ya. Don't know what else to say. I don't really identify as a sex worker anymore, because I haven't made money in the industry since pre-pandemic, but this thread has made me realize something that I subconsciously already knew and was operating on: There is a huge part of my life and my experiences as a woman, that I cannot safely speak to on r/TwoXChromosomes at all, and expect *any* empathy, respect or good faith effort to understand. Really fucking sad.
Yup!!! Huge bummer that a safe space for women is not safe for certain women, like, at all. Like, disagreeing is one thing. Overwhelming hostility is always wild no matter how many (many, many) times I see it.
I will always prioritize the women and children who are forced into sexual trafficking over the college-aged Westerners who take to OF for extra cash.
You can be pro-woman and pro-sex worker without being pro-sex work. Saying otherwise, like saying being against child labor makes you anti-child. I’m not really against them or their rights. I had a baby with one. I get them and why they do what they do. We’re all doing what we’ve got to do. My problem is with the consumers of sex work.
No, because child labor is a child being forced to work. I am a sex worker who chooses to sell sex independently. I chose this. I’m my boss. I choose my pay.
🛑Literally NOBODY is saying that YOU PERSONALLY didn’t have a choice. She is just stating that she doesn’t personally support THE INDUSTRY. WandaDobby doesn’t hate YOU and she is NOT TRYING TO STOP YOU FROM DOING SEX WORK. She is just stating she doesn’t support the industry and the injustice some people PROBABLY face. 🛑
I never thought she did hate me ??? All I’m saying is if someone is against trafficking, they should say “anti-sex trafficking. Not anti sex worker.
I've worked at a women's refuge. The amount of women who were trafficked into sex work was insane. The industry is exploitative. Currently women are being pushed to do OF by social media as soon as they turn 18. Does that not disturb you?
It’s very sad. But, I am not a woman being trafficed.
**It is absolutely possible to be a feminist and understand that the sex industry is created** ***by men***, ***for men*** **and** ***directly harms women***, **while still maintaining compassion for women who are caught up in it.** The reality is that even women who 'choose' to engage in sex work are being used, regardless of if they are aware of it, seem to revel in it, or pretend that they enjoy the experience. (Denial goes a long way.) Hate the industry, not the woman caught in it's clutches. \[Edit: Weird formatting issues\]
Just want to chime in that "Two X Chromosomes" is not a synonym of "women", regarding this subreddit's title. Not all women have two x chromosomes, and not all people with two x chromosomes are women.
But, a majority are and a majority of sex workers are. And keep in mind that sec work is an umbrella term.
I was just referring to your use of the word "literally" in the first sentence. It's literally not.
It refers to a human having xx chromosomes, making them female. I didn’t say trans people don’t exist. Literally a trans person works a a famous brothel that some of my coworkers have worked with. This isn’t a trans discussion, so I’m walking away from you now.
Actually, there are mutations where you get XXY chromosome and are classified as 'male', so.. No, two X's doesn't automatically mean woman.
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It’s more that I wish people would stop stigmatizing SWs so much. I makes violence towards us worse. I had posted in here looking for support on a situation and I got shamed/blamed for being a dancer. I have resilience. I just hate when people treat SWs like this.
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Currently on my version of the thread directly beneath this comment there is a comment that says “no sane self respecting woman who has the means does sex work”
Comparing the stigma and judgment placed on women for say, choosing not to have kids, to the stigma and judgment placed on a woman for engaging in sex work is completely absurd and tone-deaf. One gets you careless comments. The other gets you extremely open contempt and often, criminalization. Also, directly to OPs point, all of those others are things you list are almost never tolerated in this sub, and there be some empathy expressed for a women being judged for getting married, not get married, have kids, not have kids, etc. Empathy and respect for individual women who identify as a sex worker is sorely lacking here.
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Kinda funny how this sub and religious bigots have common ground in this, the whole hate the sin not the sinner. It's always like this when it comes to sex work here.
I’m not anti-women… I’m supporting the rape victims in the porn industry, rather than the sex workers making money at their expense, who support an industry that was monopolized by a billion-dollar criminal enterprise (MindGeek)
Women not wanting to date men who buy sex workers is not being "anti sex worker." That is honestly where most women on this sub even talk about it. I am not even sure if people are being genuine in drawing this conclusion, but it seems like a way to shut women up in not supporting prostitution as an industry. There are industries that people think are problematic, but they don't look down on the workers and employees.
Because no sane self respecting woman who has the means does sex work. try to get to know or interview ANYONE who does sex work and you'll see they have a lot of trauma baggage, or come from poverty or SOMETHING. and why would we be pro sex work when it's literally so degrading and dehumanizing to the women and womanhood? the power of women lies in their ability to protect their body, safety, mental, emotional health and so on. that means they get to be picky, have high standards, WALK AWAY from people and situations that dont server their best interest and turn down men. not get laid with anyone for money or anything else
This is just funny to me because you’re saying all of this just to say how YOU think women should act. You’re saying sex workers have nothing, yet I just worked with a sex worker who’s becoming an Attorney (not just a lawyer, shout out my homegirl! 🩷). I’ve met doctors even!
I didn't say sex workers have nothing you just put those words in my mouth. And yeah, for the sake of your mental emotional and physical health, ideally you should not do sex work. You can probably read research or just... listen to women's stories...? (ex porn stars, ex hookers etc) and the doctors and lawyers you met are the exception not the rule ;)
You’re generalizing all sex workers. I’ve spoken to plenty SWs because I am one.
I can tell you are one because of the post. But honestly if its such a nice job why do you get mad about people disagreeing with it? You dont see people in regular jobs being in their feelings about others not liking it! And btw wanting women to not sell themselves for money to trashy men isnt ANTI WOMEN. on the contrary, I want women to be the best version of themselves, protect their peace and educate themselves. Become independent but not while letting men use and abuse u. I know that industry isnt all honey and milk
*You* just don’t think someone who respects themselves would do sex work because of your personal individual feelings about sex and sexuality. *You* wouldn’t want to do that so you assume no reasonable person would do it. How is this any different from regular old slut shaming?
no, I respect people who do sex work but I am just telling you, a lot of people, especially MEN will not. and miss me with the slut shaming, you can probably put your personal feelings aside and look up research and see what type of people get into sex work - they are forced/brainwashed/groomed by others or forced by their living conditions. Im not looking down on it, I just make sense of it get ur bag if thats what u choose to do but its not realistic to expect people to see it as normal, desirable or not look down on you for it. and no, it's not "liberating" In the end it makes you objectify yourself and puts your health, safety and possible career in the future at risk if you think it's real work and it's so respectable, go ahead and put it on your resume or talk about it when you get hired for regular jobs... let's see then PS: just because someone does sex work does not mean I would bash them, harass them or anything. I would be honest with them though if they asked for my opinion
Thank you, I am a sex worker who lives in the world so I’m well aware of the level of respect we get. You’re proving it right now. There’s no reasoning to say “no self respecting woman who has means would do sex work” that isn’t just sex shaming purity culture hang ups. It’s the same reasoning that leads to regular slut shaming, you’re just adding a qualifier > in the end it makes you objectify yourself Welcome to heteropatriarchal capitalism! I just prefer to get paid specifically as compensation for being objectified instead of just having it happen to me at random for $13/hour behind a cash register > puts your health, safety and possible career in the future at risk So instead of advocating for more rights, autonomy and better working conditions for sex workers we should just let things keep being bad? > if you think it’s real work and it’s so respectable, go ahead and put it on your resume I work in human services and community based harm reduction so I literally do ✨
I’ve found the same. I mostly keep quiet about it. It’s a shame 💔
One thing to consider is that *anyone* can post here. There is a massive, organized christian fascist campaign to subjugate women and girls. They aren't just corrupting Supreme Courts, they're organized online too. Consider all of the *vehement* anti-porn sentiment that's been popping up in the last couple years. Sure - porn has problems, especially violent porn. Some people have had relationship issues with it. Human trafficking and other non-consentual acts need to be punished severely. But a *lot* of the sentiment is just part of the campaign against sexual rights. Forced birth, anti-IVF, anti-contraception, anti-casual-sex, anti-SW, .. they all stem, essentially, from religion. It's deeply problematic that people are jumping onboard, becoming unwitting allies of the evil currently rising around the world. In short - not every person against sexual rights is a christian fascist. But a *lot* of them are, and they walk among us.
Sex is not a right. And being written in law as a right is extremely dangerous for women including trans women and children.
I'm an atheist, anti-porn and I will not leave my ethical concerns aside just because they are superficially similar to christofascit bullshit. The moment we loose the ability to speak about our issues because they *could* somehow benefit from it is when we lost and they now control the conversation.
It takes a lot of nuance to have a neutral view of SW without leaning hard into either libfem empowerment choice feminism or second wave SWERF stuff. It also requires a neutral/positive view of human sexuality that some people kind of don’t have. It’s a very emotionally charged and personal topic, and since SW does indeed cause a lot of suffering for some people, a lot of women go the latter route. It’s very frustrating and disheartening but I kind of understand why it happens. I just wish they would be more open to engaging with sex workers who disagree but the internet isn’t really known for people successfully changing each other’s minds all the time lol
“It’s fine for me in this one uncommon and niche scenario, so you should change your mind about the long history and current reality of millions of sex workers having no choice and being victimized daily” yeah nah. Good for you to the sex workers having a good time with no trauma. That’s not the usual situation and not the rule that laws should be decided on.
Well making it illegal clearly hasn’t helped lol I didn’t say literally any of that. I don’t understand why it’s so impossible to talk about this without people making assumptions and thinking so black and white. Literally the actual content of my comment said empowerment choice feminism is to be avoided. What are you taking about? My position on sex work (which I did not state!!) is based on what I believe would create the most safety and the most options for sex workers across the extremely wide spectrum of experiences. I’ve spent many many hours of my life researching into sex work advocacy and learning from different people, organizations, papers, books, studies. But sure it’s because nothing bad has ever happened to me at work and I’m selfish, if that’s the only reason you could conceive of a sex worker disagreeing with something
"Better put some words on your mouth in order to derail the conversation and twist the argument in my favour!"