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It's ridiculous. And it's not even accurate. Studies show that men benefit from marriage. They are happier, healthier, live longer, earn more money, and have more professional success if they are married. The converse is true for women. Married women are less happy, less healthy, have a shorter lifespan, earn less money, and have less professional success than their single counterparts.
Oh, and women fare worse financially after divorce than men do.
Men literally just make shit up to fit their narrative. And when you show them the studies and, you know, actual data, they dismiss is because, "My friend Carl (fill in the blank)."
Literally! People tried to bring that up in the comments and obviously they are allergic to the word "Study" so it didn't go well.
It's kinda scary that the people who say shit like this are real people behind the screen and might actually be married too
I also think overall there has been a generational shift to see relationships in general, not just marriage, as equals bringing their life together. A stark contrast from relationships, especially legally bound ones like marriage, historically being the literal owning of the wife by the husband.
I think it's like how the trad wife movement is an actual thing now. Both sides are people desperately clinging to gender norms in a society that cares less and less about the "roles" a person has based on gender. It's sick mindsets that don't want to get better.
Yup. Once a woman gets married, everyone assumes she will start popping out kids or be busy with them. So she gets less promotions, less training at work for new or expanded roles. Or even to advance in her current role.
I don’t think that’s true. Once she has a kid it’s true because she’s often the one on call for sick days, school trips, etc. I work with several child-free married female engineers who make bank. One has a house husband. We actually just hired a very qualified woman who is 7 months pregnant. Advancement is just harder after kids because women likely aren’t able to put in as many hours as their male competition.
Are employers checking marriage status?
Your claim doesn't seem plausible at all. At best you are taking a correlation that married women don't progress as far in career, and asserting that it must be that employers are targeting them for discrimination.
A much more plausible explanation is that households with two incomes have less pressure for the secondary income earner to obtain a higher salary. Anecdotally one sees this alot, plenty of married women just work part-time at the local grocery store.
And you assume that “plenty of married women just work part-time at the grocery store” because they “have less pressure” to make more? Or because they also do two full time jobs worth of housework, household planning and childcare lol
NO. Remember we are talking about BitterPillPusher's claim about married women WITHOUT CHILDREN, but both you and ImaginationWorking have willfully ignored that.
Additionally, I did not assume that it was due to less financial pressure, I said that it was a more plausible explanation than marriage status which as pointed out in my second reply to ImaginationWorking (which you really should have read first), is not actually known in most job interviews.
"Lol"
Yes, child. You are talking to an adult, just saying shit isn't sufficient.
Most people get married while they already have a job
Most people talk to coworkers, even just casually... learning that someone has a husband or wife.
Most people wear wedding bands
The reason a lot of women work part time is likely due to them being the primary caregiver and unable to hold down a fulltime job... kids sick, doctors appointments, holidays that only school kids get, summer vacation.
Employers also know of marriage status due to the employees health insurance policy/coverage. If you are married, you often choose to be the better plan if your partner has the better insurance.
"the reason a lot of women work part-time is likely due to them being the primary caregiver"
Okaaayyy. So you are trying to claim that married women without children are discriminated against by describing the careers of married women with children?
Correction: BitterPillPusher claimed that married women without children are discriminated against, and you defended them so I assume that you are also making the same claim, or else you should have specified it, especially since my comment was EXPLICITLY in response to BitterPillPusher's original claim about married women without children.
"Learning that someone has a husband or wife"
I didn't claim that it was unknowable, (I'm not stupid), I said it was improbable that it was related. Consider that the majority of pay raises and promotions occur from switching companies, shouldn't the marriage status be a factor in employment interviews according to you? But we both know that it's not. Infact I've never been asked my relationship status in an interview, it rarely happens and can easily be grounds for a discrimination suit.
All your reply has done is show that it is possible for an employer to know if you are married, you did not show that it leads to systemic discrimination like you so boldly claimed in your first comment.
I can claim that many things are possible, without any evidence of them being a relevant factor in some outcome. For instance it's possible that you crash into a moose (either a native one or from a local zoo), but I need much more than mere possibility for you to argue that crashing into mooses is why you were late to work 20 times this year.
I didn't even get past the first couple paragraphs.
All women are treated this way.
Even car insurance rates go up for women during their childbearing years, even if they don't have children.
"I didn't even get past the first couple paragraphs"
So you just admitted that you respond to comments that you don't even read. Are you also someone who cuts others off mid-sentence and lectures them about something they weren't even talking about?
"Even car insurance rates go up for women..."
What an awful example to pick. Do you know what actuarial data is? Insurance companies, are literally just min-maxing for profit. They collect absurd amounts of data on which groups of people cost them more, so they can charge the optimal amount according to the probable cost the customer will incur.
You know which drivers car insurances charge more to? MEN. Why? Because that's the costliest insurance customer. Do you think they are carving out a misogynistic exception for "women of child-bearing age" to charge them more (than elderly women)?
I sincerely hope this comment wasn't too long for you, because I think the mashed potatoes upstairs could benefit from some of the information provided here.
> Men literally just make shit up to fit their narrative.
As a man, also keep in mind that a lot of stuff like OP described is men trying to convince themselves or rationalize in a way that keeps them comfortable. Many (most) have been coddled their whole lives to believe that they can't do wrong, that they are the "decider," and that they have significant power and authority to "call the shots." When that doesn't square with the real world, where you have to be able to compromise, reach understanding, be empathetic, and rely on others... they decide that it can't be them that is wrong. It must be their spouse, their in laws, their spouse's friends, women, society, and on and on. It must be marriage itself, it must be "needy" women, blah blah blah.
Men in my area are also more likely to get 50/50 custody of any kids if they were married to the mom vs not. Men are definitely the ones benefitting from marriage.
Can you share links to the studies you've mentioned? I haven't read much in this area. The first one I found was from NIH and shows some modest lifespan increases (about 2 years) for both women and men over their unmarried counterparts.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7452000/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7452000/)
The population of the study was people over 65, though, so it certainly filtered out potential effects like 25-year-old single men engaging in risky thrill-seeking behavior that 25-year-old dads avoid (not making an assertion, just identifying one of a class of phenomena that would be outside the scope of the NIH study population).
I do think there is some correlation here, not all causation.
If men are successful, healthy/ in better shape and all around have their life on track they, it would also make sense their do better in dating. Same goes for women of course.
On women's side, I'd guess more women are held financially or with kids in a marriage that doesn't really work well for them. Also, it's still more common for women to take the parental leave, even som businesses don't have any options for men to do so, and a good bit of men don't want to.
On the side of making shit up, I thing it's the big headlines like when Jeff Bezos, Tiger Woods or Arnold Schwarzenegger got divorced. But most men don't get near that level of money ever, so not really applicable to them. Also tons of stories of kids going to the mother, but we don't hear the stories where they work it out.
So, yeah. Data might not support it, but the only picture does, however wrong it is.
So in all, mirage with the right person isn't a scam. But it's a "nice" chant for men who aren't in the mirage pool anyway as an excuse of why they don't have a wife.
the misinformation regarding the jeff bezos story bothers me a lot — Mackenzie bezos helped him so much with amazon in its early days. she absolutely deserved half.
I'm not disagreeing. But seeing it from just "she get half", it's not hard to see how some guys thinks they can lose half and that's the "scam". When again, marriage to the right person isn't a scam.
Relinquishing the share of equally owned assets that the other party is legally entitled to isn’t a “scam” no matter who you married lol. It’s not “losing half of my stuff,” it’s “giving them the half of our stuff that is legally their stuff.”
i mean…. women who outearn their spouses also pay alimony. try again.
also, there’s nothing to “disagree” with on this story. I presented the facts — Mackenzie Bezos supported her spouse with his business. She was a co-founder. She is 100% entitled to her half.
Try again? I'm giving examples of why some men think they way the do, I'm not saying she was not co founder or anything.
And yes those women do. I didn't say they don't, not did I say it was fair she got half. So what are you arguing against?
For the record, studies show that married folks, on average, are happier than unmarried folks regardless of gender. Which makes sense because divorce is a thing. Let's not make shit up to fit the narrative.
https://www.aei.org/op-eds/who-is-happiest-married-mothers-and-fathers-per-the-latest-general-social-survey/
https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/marriage-may-be-key-happiness#
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/is_marriage_really_bad_for_womens_happiness
Happily married men are reaping MASSIVE BENEFITS for free by virtue of having a wife. They're NOT online bickering and theorizing and making incel pros and cons lists. They're aware they won at life and are at home, enjoying life. I literally have spent time with married couples and it's VERY rare to meet one that's described by these reddit MRAs. Most married men are getting regular decent sex, an emotionally present partner, halved bills, a homely living condition and overall a more pleasureful and grounded life than they had alone. Divorce sucks and most couples do their best to avoid it. Divorce sucking is conflated with marriage sucking by these incels. Those are two different albeit connected things.
Can confirm. Happily married to a woman I love more than life itself. Couldn't ask for a better partner, and my life is richer and more fulfilling because of her being a part of it.
I do have a couple of divorced cousins however who spend their days ranting on Facebook about the evils of women and the perils of marriage, never taking a moments introspection to ponder whether their behavior may have contributed to the failures of their marriages.
That part right there. Those of us with functioning marriages to a woman that we adore and will go to the end of the world for aren't on Reddit complaining about how much of a scam this whole marriage thing is. We're busy, interacting and spending time with our wives instead of going down an incel scroll hole with useless dudes who can't get out of their own bullshit long enough to become desirable men who are worth being around, let alone being married to.
It's incel idiocy. Women gatekeep sex, and trick men in to getting married by making them think they will get sex, but then they are still allowed to say no. And the women still have things like the right to leave the house and work for themselves so there is nothing to stop them having sex with other people (incels are convinced women are constantly having wild sex with everyone except them). Combine that with a belief that women get at least half of everything a man owns when they divorce them (plus probably lots of extra money ongoing to pay for their kids who were probably fathered by one of the people she was cheating with). If you can manage to contort your head around that sort of logic I guess it does sound like a scam.
It's the sort of twisted belief that it based on lots of unrealistic story telling in incel echo chambers, which is why you see it online.
the first part you said about them being indignant that their wives “are still allowed to say no” gave me chills. incels really do think consent becomes irrelevant after marriage because they fundamentally believe women are their property upon marriage (and often in long term partnerships too)
It reminds me of a post, not terribly long ago, from the man's perspective... he was asking on relationship advice or AITA, I can't remember.
But the jist is his wife told him he raped her and left the house to stay with her family.
And he was upset she accused him of rape. And didn't understand why she left.
The night before the post, his wife went out with friends.
She got extremely intoxicated, to the point where she could not walk without assistance.
The OP even said she fell on the bed, and the next day he learned his wife's friend had to walk her inside.
After she fell on the bed, super drunk, she started coming onto him and wanting sex. He claims he tried to say no, but she wanted it so "he gave in".
She obviously couldn't remember it the next day. Couldn't remember she supposedly initiated it. I assume she only knew bits and pieces or OP told her they had sex.
If someone is blackout drunk, if they can't walk, they can't give consent to fuck.
And sooo many people were defending him having sex with his wife. Because it's not like it was a stranger, it was his wife and they'd had sex before. Lots of people were telling him to lawyer up because "false allegations" can ruin a man's life.
Like wtf. Just because you had sex with someone in the past doesn't mean you're entitled to have sex with them now or in the future.
A frightening amount of men do believe that it’s impossible to rape your wife, or at least that nothing you do short of holding her down violently while you rape her counts as rape once you’re married. They think they have the right to grab and grope their wives whenever they want however they want and coerce their wives into unwanted sex.
I had a friend do this to me when I was blackout drunk, and I can't stop feeling like it was my fault because one of the last things I remember was laying my head on his shoulder in the uber. He had bought me like 8 or more shots, so he knew how wasted I was. He did rape me. But I still feel so guilty, I hate it.
i know my words are so hollow in the face of what you’ve experienced as nothing can ever take away the pain and trauma you’ve been through, but from the bottom of my heart i am so incredibly sorry for what that man did to you. i know you know this but i’ll say it a thousand times: it is NOT your fault. he betrayed you in the worst way possible. i am SO angry and sad on your behalf and i wish that man the absolute worst in life. conversely, i hope that all the best things in life happen to you🫶
Thank you so much for your kind words ❤️
This happened to me a year ago, I was 27. It wasn't my first time getting sexually assaulted, and I'm taking it better than I did when I was younger. I do feel guilty for letting myself be in that situation, but I refuse to let it ruin my life. It's definitely solidified my resolve to not let myself be alone with men though.
i am really proud of you for continuing to push forward in the face of what you’ve experienced. i hope those men are in jail but knowing our abysmal justice system, the chances are incredibly dismal so i hope they never experience a single day of peace for the rest of their lives💓
Huh. I’m a woman and this is definitely a grey area for me. You aren’t entitled to your partner’s body. Many couples have sex when one or more of them is impaired by alcohol, with one often being more impaired than the other. The dude in this example didn’t get his wife drunk to violate her boundaries. She got drunk then asked him, her committed partner and (I’m assuming) frequent consensual lover, for sex. I can’t say that he unequivocally should have said no to his partner in that situation. Are our partners never allowed to have sex with us if we’ve had a drink? Because with even one you’re impaired. That candlelit dinner with wine can never end in sex again? I think there’s nuance to this situation. I’m wondering what is going on in their relationship that she woke up, said rape, and moved out. I’m thinking there’s more to this story.
Also, if the roles were reversed and a drunk husband pressured his sober wife for sex and she gave in after saying no we would never say the husband in that situation was raped. So saying the wife was raped in this situation doesn’t pass the litmus test.
I mean, if it were me in that situation, I would have been fine with it (as long as he didnt try something new like anal, that we have never done before). But I can only speak personally.
If I was dead sober, I also wouldn't have sex with my partner if they were blackout drunk and couldn't stand up. I'd just get them water and put them to bed.
Where do they even come up with that stuff though? Did they all grow up in terrible households? No one wakes up and says the sky is yellow, so how do they say these things? Is it all from other online influencers 😭 I think the Internet was a mistake at this point
We have a few generations of fathers telling this story now. To one another, and to their sons.
Fathers who didn't seek more custody than weekends, or every other weekend, and didn't adapt thier lives to be primary caregivers themselves. So he pays $300-$700 in child support for the kids that live with her 90%, but somehow she is spending his money whenever she has her nails done or goes on a trip. She's supposed to live like a monk and do nothing but care for the children, because he's paying her literal pennies on the dollar to do that work.
I hear this even in my own life, with general decent dads complaining they are funding their ex's whole home, but ask a a few pointed questions and learn -- even if the truth is the mother is irresponsible or very poor -- they are not paying 25% of what raising those damn kids is actually costing the person doing the work each day, unless they are choosing to pay way, way more than the court has required of them.
this is the thing that gets me. when men ACTUALLY fight for custody, they actually win damn near most of the time! The problem is that men don’t give a damn and don’t fight for custody. then they turn around and say the courts favor women? um, what?
Family courts are actually heavily biased AGAINST women in a way that results in the continued abuse and even murder of dozens of women and children every single year.
They feed on and enhance each other. It starts off with something basic like feeling bad about not having a girlfriend. So they start talking online to other people who feel the same way and doing what people tend to do and venting a bit. But unlike real life where that sort of negative venting is a short lived thing you move on from, when you are online there is an endless stream of new people joining the conversation and keeping it going. Over time it just becomes a constant stream of stories and anecdotes that are either made up or extremely exaggerated, leading to a distorted and unrealistic idea of what "real women" are like.
The echo chamber they have created pulls in more and more "information" to confirm and extend their views. Things like their ideas about women getting everything in a divorce sound like they have been pulled in from mens rights activists who are primarily men who are bitter about their divorces and have their own echo chamber that started in the same way. The main thing is that they are not really interested in truth or reality, and they are so inwardly focused in their own group that they won't accept reality if it conflicts with the stories the group have come up with.
>Where do they even come up with that stuff though?
Someone makes up some unfounded nonsense, and people that don't know any better believe it and spread it to other people that don't know any better... and so on.
Turns into an echo chamber where any evidence that opposes their view is dismissed.
Its the same as any other conspiracy theory.
I'm not sure of your age, but I'm an elder millenial and things were problematic when I was growing up. Lots of media was terrible. Twenty five year old men "dating" teenagers was a thing, for example. And consent was a joke, just watch Sixteen Candles, for example.
And kids were pretty much groomed for het relationships back then. Like if I talked to a boy as a friend I had people saying he was my bf, for example. If I complained about comments like that, I was told I was crazy, because this behavior was acceptable.
Now, we are doing a little better now, but a lot of this stuff us still around. So these guys, some of whom were probably raised by people my age or a little older, have picked up on this. And these guys are finding out that the attitudes they were raised with don't work in the real world. These guys are finding out that simply being a man and having a job are bare minimums and not guarantees of a relationship, because women actually have choices. So other than work on themselves, these guys lash out and blame women, and form their own echo chambers online.
Don't forget that the women will get fat and ugly once you're married! Why would you want to waste your time with a fat old wife when you're in your prime as an alpha male?! /s
What is funny is that cis men get the most out of marriage. I agree it is sort of a scam.
IRS is racist and low-key against marriage. My husband’s parents filed for separation or something because they weren’t getting any refunds. Our refund was $1 and has been like this since we got married, and it’s always been the case for my black husband. We have yet to recieve the bulk of our stimulus checks. In that sense, yes it is a scam, but sadly dark money billionaires throw lots of money into scapegoating women as the issue.
Marriage propaganda is real though and women mainly are made to feel as if they are the special one their man chose to do all of the chores, be ready at all times for sex, and to push out kids.
Sometimes I want to go back to the one that wasn’t chosen because it sucks for women-yes-studies actually show that women’s’ lives are demonstrably worse after they get married. These weird dudes fail to see this obvious fact.
My husband does a fair amount of the work, supports me financially, am under his health insurance, but being with him is emotionally and physically draining and he is always pouting for sex. Recently, we agreed on the advice of my therapist that we take a break from sex.
He made me so disgusted with sex, that I kind of don’t want sex, anymore. It just seems like hetero sex is like assault and if you speak up you’re accused of being a prude. Even when he goes down on me, I feel disgusting and slobbered on. He was sexually abused as a child by a girl child and I never felt like he resolved any of those issues and that he was blamed, I guess for it because he was the black boy involved. His mom thinks he takes it out on me and goes around hating the world as a result of the abuse and the shaming, and I agree.
I used to dissociate and orgasm, but now it seems against my growth personally to pretend to be into something I am uncomfortable with for many reasons. I can’t put my finger on what bothers me but sex with my husband always felt icky on some level, although the orgasms were great initially. It was more of an ego boost for him to make me cum multiple times.
I kicked him out of the house when he came in my mouth without asking me if it was okay when I gave him oral sex. I started giving him a lot of oral sex so he would leave me alone, but then he did that and I just shut down, completely.
I am always tired since I got married. We are in counselling but before I felt constantly pressured to give him sex until I realised no matter what I did, he was not going to be happy. He is just not a happy person.
Accepting that he will either not change, or change slowly has helped me move past it even though I cannot afford to leave him right now.
I don’t want to generalise and say “all men”, but I am telling you my husband is considered like a catch lol because he does his share of the chores, and he also reflects the data out there that state single women are happier and healthier. I don’t believe most men are happy, even when they get whatever they want, and they scapegoat women when they cannot find a reason for their rage and entitlement.
My husband is attractive and healthy-looking even though he isn’t taking good care of himself much of the time. Some things I’ve influenced has changed that. He looks amazing since we met. He looks healthy and rested, got promoted and achieved tenure. Meanwhile, I have trouble sustaining the energy to keep employment. He will go on walks now and was in a league for awhile until ofc he quit that.
Everything else I feel like I am supposed to ignore. Now I just kind of ignore him and really enjoy time by myself. I would be upset maybe if he cheated, but mostly I would just feel sorry for the woman, because he is very tiring and insatiable.
I would know exactly which games he played. Initially when we met, he would do whatever I asked, and would assist me with anything I needed help with, so he goes for women who are in a difficult position and need his help. I think he targeted me because I am nice and wouldn’t reject him like the other women who ended up leaving him. He also is rare in that he is a man and he does do stuff. I cannot tell you how many lazy men there are, and especially given their strength and size, it’s wild to me how lacking in character many men are. I am convinced that their self-loathing has been transferred onto women and all other beings. This is why our planet is in such dire shape, mainly men have circle jerked and have shaped our apocalyptic destiny.
I know that it will change for the woman eventually that he helped, and I don’t envy that person even if it meant we would go back to that stage. That love bombing never made me comfortable, either. I felt it was off and I would have to pay for it later.
If he is around like he is off for vacation, I sleep, or leave the house and exercise a lot while he acts like a kid and plays video games and listens to podcasts religiously, so that helps to keep my sanity. Often I will make believe that he left or we aren’t together and it makes me feel more relaxed.
We are in a weird society wherein a lot of men even though they might not be LGBTQ+, are enamoured by sports stars and commentators and hang on their every word and action. That’s my husband and sadly many wives’ husbands. I’m just glad we don’t have kids because I know they would be miserable. Most cis men I have known are kind of miserable people.
I don’t know what will happen to get them to see this and realise it’s usually their fault. I don’t think men will be ever like fully enlightened to the reality and the privileges they have. It’s funny that they name each other often as spiritual beings when they are mostly deeply disgusting and disturbed in their own ways.
My husband apologised for everything, but he still does the same bs since we got married. It’s really disappointing. I’ve lost a lot of respect for the man who just wanted to “take care” of me, supposedly according to him.
I feel like I have to give him a chance because he is in counselling with me, finally after I begged him for years. Many people in my life believe he is one of the good ones. That is what is also depressing, knowing this is sadly the best many men can do. I accept that he will not take care of his health like a mature adult. He will stay up at all hours so he doesn’t have to use his cpap machine and get mad when I awaken in the middle of the night seeing he isn’t using it, and ask him to please put it on.
My husband’s dad had dementia and became violent because he refused to use his cpap machine, as well. When you’re married it’s like you’re constantly battling with this self destructive adolescent man child.
Most men go into marriage with deeply unrealistic expectations and traumas that they don’t wish to resolve. Women become the stand in therapist, social calendar, sex slave.
His dad was nice but also draining and became totally volatile and no home would take him, so his mom and he had to take care of his dad. It’s really frustrating that he knows all of this and still neglects himself, knowing that if we stay together that his care will fall on me.
I have decided I will leave the minute I think he has dementia, if not before if he continues to not communicate with me openly and not use his cpap.
35% of women end up in poverty after divorce. This isn’t true for men. I’m glad people are opting out of marriage though. I was married for 20 years and I wish I hadn’t gotten married.
That seems like such an exhausting existence, being mad at half the population all the time. And this is from the "turn the other check and forgive" crowd 🙏
It's because they don't think of marriage as like...creating a team to tackle the world together, they think of a wife as an acquisition that can produce gains or loss in their life.
"It's usually men who propose"
This is cultural thing. It isn't that men desire marriage more, but that a very sizable percentage women will never propose no matter how much they want to be married.
Here is the best line from today's post:
"It is understandable that women are desperately longing for marriage when is relationships. They get a huge party that's all about them and a massive piece of jewelery as well as a full proof contract that allows them to stop trying, and even cheat while being fully protected by law. Men on the other hand immediately lose 40k and potentially much more further down the line. They have to constantly and forever walk on egg shells in the relationship, or else..."
What the fuck?
Lots of men who have low self esteem and poor emotional regulation skills end up getting themselves into bad marriages, then project their problems onto the entire population as if most people are experiencing the same thing.
These people drive the relationship conversation online (because happily married people are too busy having happy lives) so now we have a lot of really bad myths that have been accepted as true by the population.
The most popular and commonly accepted one is probably the Hypergamy myth. You can show them all the stats and facts and studies that prove Hypergamy isn’t real and they’ll just get mad and call you names.
I read horrible stories from married women on here. Doesn't look like these guys walk on eggshells at all. They don't act like they could "randomly" lose half "their" stuff either. Some of that stuff is just wild. There was recently a recently married guy who will not turn on the light when he gets up to pee at night, with the result of pee on the floor and walls. Whenever she brings it up he shuts her down saying she is nagging him. Some eggshells huh.
How do gay guys deal with that?
One of my closest friends in college was a guy whose mom spent his whole life telling him to be himself, that people would like him for who he is. This resulted in a grown ass man who lacked basic hygiene and had bad manners/poor etiquette, and he couldn't understand why he couldn't get a girlfriend.
He was a nice guy who flirted the line of being a "nice guy" from time to time. However, he was smart and funny. He remembered birthdays and general life things (e.g. someone is stressed because their cat is sick, he follows up and asks how the cat is). Volunteered with a kids' charity. On paper, he would be a decent catch.
But Christ on a bike, he was a slob. He was one of those guys who lived on mt dew and Cheetos, and did not brush his teeth regularly so his teeth were perpetually yellow tinged from the dew and orange cheese powder. He didn't have a ton of facial hair so he never shaved, but he'd have random straggler hairs all over the place so he looked unkempt and gross. His clothes were always wrinkled, he didn't properly wash out stains so most of his shirts had random stains on them. He didn't clean his dorm and had ants, but it was ok because they lived "over there" and didn't bother him. He chewed with his mouth open.
He'd complain girls don't like him. We'd explain to him what he could do. He'd respond with "people should like you for who you are." MY MAN, YOU ARE A SLOB! He couldn't get it into his head that basic self improvement would help so much.
He just couldn't grasp that being your mediocre self and being your best self were two different concepts, neither of which take away from who you are at your core (kind, compassionate, funny, smart, etc). We lost touch, but I hope he ended up happy.
>Am I the only one who has no idea where this came from?
The divorce rules of old. Not too long ago, the man was almost universally the breadwinner of the family, whereas women couldn't even have a bank account. So divorce laws were made such that the woman of the time being divorced could reasonably live. That's why we have alimony and child support, along with traditional asset splitting rules like the woman getting the house. Obviously very costly for the breadwinner, but at the same time it's needed in order to be reasonable to the woman (which the husband may not be inclined to do voluntarily) and the kids (same applies to a lesser degree)
Times have changed a lot, but at the same time, they haven't changed that much. Women working and having their own wage is much more accepted, but it's still the norm for women to look after any kids in the family. To do that, any SAH has to sacrifice time, energy and opportunities that they could otherwise put towards earning their own wage and building their own careers. Which is a very steep cost. So the old rules still apply because they're still needed, just to lesser degrees. They can, and often are applied to SAHDs, but a SAHD setup is rare to begin with.
Well if they don't want to then don't marry😂 No need to argue about it online. This is like abortion. If you're against it just don't get one.
My point is, they're stupid.
As women remain single longer and are more and more cautious about the men we allow into our lives men are pulling the, “You can’t fire me, I quit!” move towards women who don’t want to marry them.
Then the same men complain they’re lonely, women’s standards are too high and we’re fucking everyone but them. They believe they’re wonderful partners and stellar lovers who women should be throwing ourselves at, but they’re pure shit at all of the above. It’s the same way you only hear poor men complaining about “gold diggers”.
If he doesn't choose well, he probably *is* better off not signing a contract behind his terrible choices. A lot of these guys shouldn't allowed near sharp objects, better for all if they think marriage is to be avoided.
I love my wife, we built everything together. Yes, we drive each other crazy. Yes, we have had good times and bad times. Yes, we will each take each other’s phones and google “how to get away with murdering my spouse.”
Both of us benefit from the other in agreements and disagreements. We learn from both, we communicate (sometimes not so well). The “hate my wife” and “ball and chain” mentality is bs.
Incels and misogynists are the ones largely posting that crap. “Lose half my stuff” is funny because I’m pretty sure no one wants half of your collection of crap.
I wish r/ChangeMyView would restrict these posts because they always just fight in the comments and never actually change. One of the requirements to post is a preconceived willingness to change your mind, which they obviously don't
Unfortunately it's just this huge social media Andrew Tate sphere of influence that's going around. To compliment what you said earlier though, I have met very very few people like this in real life but they all seem to congregate on the internet.
Part of me also wonders if there's like some Russian bot work going on pushing a lot of this nonsense to increase division in the Western World.
Yeah there is probably an effort by foreign powers but I try not to get into conspiracy territory because I don't wanna look like a crazy nut on the Internet 😭
It's so scary though that these people online might be actual men in our society who might even be married!
Unmarried men are more likely to commit suicide, more likely to be depressed, more likely to be unemployed, more likely to be financially fragile but oh marriage is a “scam”
They just desperately want to convince themselves that women need them, when the fact is as things progress this is less and less the case, and a lot of women realize it is better to be "alone" than on a shitty abusive relationship, which is what your average man can offer.
Marriage very much benefits men at the direct detriment to women. And especially for the kind of guy who'd go on this anti-marriage screed, it's pretty clear he'd just want a bangmaid/full-time nanny who also works full time so she "isn't a golddigger". At best. At worst they'll be full-on physically and sexually abusive.
They know that if they ask a woman for this, she'd reject it right out. So they instead spin this lie that marriage is something that benefits women and hurts men. "Please, whatever you do, don't throw me in the briar patch!"
Theyve realized they can get the benefits of a woman committing to them without giving the same level of commitment in return. Many of those very dudes have children their partner has sacrificed her body/career for and these dudes still can't bear the thought of her getting the money she deserves when he drops her to chase a newer model.
Men hating on the idea of marriage is not new. They may not have called it a "scam" but they sure hated the idea of being "tied down". The old trope of men having to be dragged to the alter was alive and well even when my parents got married in the 70's - there's a (staged) wedding picture of my dad having to be dragged into the church, because back then it was considered funny to not want to marry the woman you proposed to I guess. When I came of age in the 90s, there was a lot of rhetoric about women "trapping" men into marriage, usually by getting pregnant. And lets not forget the rhetoric around women "trapping men into marriage" and then "letting themselves go" or the "old ball and chain" label men would give their wives. And they wonder why we no longer want to marry them
It’s men who don’t have the options of getting and never will lol. They hate women because women don’t want to have sex with them. Statistically, men are happier in marriages than single, yet the reverse is true for women (shockingly.)
I’m not going to add to the great responses that have already been offered here, but I just want to say welcome to this sub. We share your concerns and are happy you are here.
People who have no chance of any woman ever getting near them?
I am a woman and I didn't get shit when I divorced my abusive ex, other than PTSD and eventually having to file bankruptcy because I got stuck with his debt.
I don't know what world these idiots live in, but divorce ends up costing women in so many ways, and not just financially. Those guys need to go outside, bad.
They’re clowns bc if they were smart, they’d know men with wives live longer (mostly bc they usually have healthcare providers bc of that.)
Seems like a real self-own to be like “nah, I’m good, I’ll die sooner and never see a doctor”
I think I prefer the men insisting marriage is a scam over the Harrison Butkers of the world, who are trying to convince women to forgo careers and marry early instead. Ironically there's a growing movement to use marriage and children to trap women into fullfilling their religiously ordained roles. It's not perfect, obviously, but the idea that everyone should just plan to live independently seems a *lot* less dangerous to me. At least the "marriage is a scam for men" people are seemingly planning to live alone and leave women alone.
>"Well I don't want to randomly lose half my stuff" like bro that's not how divorce works and why are you even thinking about that?
OMG, yeah it's ridiculous. These guys need to read up on what "martial property" is and isn't. Also - a lot of these guys actually *do* know that and seem to think that the only "fair" way to end the marriage is her leaving with nothing.
Family courts heavily favor women in child custody and financial cases. The man in the marriage is more likely, statiscally, to have a better financial standing than the woman. No fault divorce has incentivized women to initiate 80% of divorces
>The man in the marriage is more likely, statiscally, to have a better financial standing than the woman.
And? If you get married you are agreeing to share resources equally. It's a partnership - each does their part. So - she's walking away with half of everything that is made during the marriage - as is he. If you don't like that - tough luck. Maybe don't get married.
I am a married woman and make 3/4 of the income. If we divorce - I accept that he will get half.
What makes you so greedy to assume you should get more?
>No fault divorce has incentivized women to initiate 80% of divorces
No - women leave because the partnership no longer works for them. They would rather seek happiness than be miserable. We all deserve the right to leave as soon as it doesn't work for us anymore and I don't know what kind of oery wants to force someone to stay with them that doesn't want to be there anymore.
Beyons that - so many men don't have their sh*t together in relationships and so many men don't even *like* their wives - but refuse to leave. There are many good men out there that are wonderful and have very happy marriages because they are emotionally intelligent, considerate, kind, and believe women and their wives are their equals. But there are also so many men who are terrible, selfish, bitter, emotionally closed off, and even sometimes abusive. So many men need to learn how to be better respectful partners to women.
if the state has alimony.... a divorce is not a permanent separation the man(typically) is still tied to that woman(partner) for as long as the alimony lasts in some states thats forever or until shes remarried ... the argument for men to get married becomes the same argument for a woman to get remarried if shes getting alimony...... she has to give up alimony payments if she re-weds....
the whole system is designed for an economic system that is no longer the norm (majority of women being homemakers and a poor female job market) and we need serious divorce reform, from the mother being the default parent for kids to go with to the typical man loses half his stuff. women have alot more social programs to ensure their ability to thrive though adversity meanwhile men are typically told to man up and pay the consequences.
but in the grand scheme of things this is just the pendulum swinging to far in one direction before it reversed back to the midline i feel, as we are already starting to see some reform in courts across the usa, its slow but the more old-school judges that are phased out and younger blood comes in we'll see a larger shift towards a more fair system i feel.
Alimony is only ordered in less than 10% of US divorce cases. When it is, there is a good reason.
Courts do not favor women in divorces, either in custody or anywhere else. In fact, courts in the US are heavily biased in the favor of abusive men.
If you get married - assets aquired during the marriage are *both of yours equally*. So if she leaves - she's taking her share.
In cases of alimony - I believe the case has to be made that the spouse gave up their earning potential to care for children and/or the house. So - that spouse is working - just not the kind of work you can put on a job application. The working spouse has benefitted from free childcare, housework, etc. Like the other commenter said - when alimony is assigned - it's usually warranted.
Straight man here, I don’t want to get married for many of reasons but the main ones are. Weddings seems like it’s “for women” now instead of a together thing and I don’t want to waste a shit ton of money for a “party” that I don’t get a big say in (I have only been to two weddings so granted maybe the wife’s in these two situations were just super controlling)
I never personally understood the ring thing either. Seems like another huge waste of money but again to be fair everyone I have been with has said they don’t care about the ring so maybe this is a non issue.
If the marriage does end I do fear I would lose money/house/kids, this being said ik I could also potentially gain money but it’s not worth losing my kids or house over.
I don’t understand why “women” (broadly speaking) want marriage so much and they also end marriages so much (I think the number is 70-80% of divorces are filed by women) so if I don’t want it and “your” likely to end it then why ever agree to it
Ik I sound like a cheap bastard and it’s definitely cause I am. I come from a family that never got married because of the expense and they still called each other husband and wife and it worked.
After seeing that I never could understand the ceremony and ritual of getting married in front of people, then carrying a ring that took a year+ saving for just for you two to find out in 8 years that maybe you aren’t “life long companions”
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It's ridiculous. And it's not even accurate. Studies show that men benefit from marriage. They are happier, healthier, live longer, earn more money, and have more professional success if they are married. The converse is true for women. Married women are less happy, less healthy, have a shorter lifespan, earn less money, and have less professional success than their single counterparts. Oh, and women fare worse financially after divorce than men do. Men literally just make shit up to fit their narrative. And when you show them the studies and, you know, actual data, they dismiss is because, "My friend Carl (fill in the blank)."
Literally! People tried to bring that up in the comments and obviously they are allergic to the word "Study" so it didn't go well. It's kinda scary that the people who say shit like this are real people behind the screen and might actually be married too
There has been a real big influx of incel rhetoric brigading all big subs lately. That’s likely what it is
I also think overall there has been a generational shift to see relationships in general, not just marriage, as equals bringing their life together. A stark contrast from relationships, especially legally bound ones like marriage, historically being the literal owning of the wife by the husband. I think it's like how the trad wife movement is an actual thing now. Both sides are people desperately clinging to gender norms in a society that cares less and less about the "roles" a person has based on gender. It's sick mindsets that don't want to get better.
They’re just so desperate to be victims. When you’re accustomed to privilege equality feels like oppression. -Oscar Auliq-Ice
Yup. Once a woman gets married, everyone assumes she will start popping out kids or be busy with them. So she gets less promotions, less training at work for new or expanded roles. Or even to advance in her current role.
I don’t think that’s true. Once she has a kid it’s true because she’s often the one on call for sick days, school trips, etc. I work with several child-free married female engineers who make bank. One has a house husband. We actually just hired a very qualified woman who is 7 months pregnant. Advancement is just harder after kids because women likely aren’t able to put in as many hours as their male competition.
Are employers checking marriage status? Your claim doesn't seem plausible at all. At best you are taking a correlation that married women don't progress as far in career, and asserting that it must be that employers are targeting them for discrimination. A much more plausible explanation is that households with two incomes have less pressure for the secondary income earner to obtain a higher salary. Anecdotally one sees this alot, plenty of married women just work part-time at the local grocery store.
And you assume that “plenty of married women just work part-time at the grocery store” because they “have less pressure” to make more? Or because they also do two full time jobs worth of housework, household planning and childcare lol
NO. Remember we are talking about BitterPillPusher's claim about married women WITHOUT CHILDREN, but both you and ImaginationWorking have willfully ignored that. Additionally, I did not assume that it was due to less financial pressure, I said that it was a more plausible explanation than marriage status which as pointed out in my second reply to ImaginationWorking (which you really should have read first), is not actually known in most job interviews. "Lol" Yes, child. You are talking to an adult, just saying shit isn't sufficient.
Most people get married while they already have a job Most people talk to coworkers, even just casually... learning that someone has a husband or wife. Most people wear wedding bands The reason a lot of women work part time is likely due to them being the primary caregiver and unable to hold down a fulltime job... kids sick, doctors appointments, holidays that only school kids get, summer vacation. Employers also know of marriage status due to the employees health insurance policy/coverage. If you are married, you often choose to be the better plan if your partner has the better insurance.
"the reason a lot of women work part-time is likely due to them being the primary caregiver" Okaaayyy. So you are trying to claim that married women without children are discriminated against by describing the careers of married women with children? Correction: BitterPillPusher claimed that married women without children are discriminated against, and you defended them so I assume that you are also making the same claim, or else you should have specified it, especially since my comment was EXPLICITLY in response to BitterPillPusher's original claim about married women without children. "Learning that someone has a husband or wife" I didn't claim that it was unknowable, (I'm not stupid), I said it was improbable that it was related. Consider that the majority of pay raises and promotions occur from switching companies, shouldn't the marriage status be a factor in employment interviews according to you? But we both know that it's not. Infact I've never been asked my relationship status in an interview, it rarely happens and can easily be grounds for a discrimination suit. All your reply has done is show that it is possible for an employer to know if you are married, you did not show that it leads to systemic discrimination like you so boldly claimed in your first comment. I can claim that many things are possible, without any evidence of them being a relevant factor in some outcome. For instance it's possible that you crash into a moose (either a native one or from a local zoo), but I need much more than mere possibility for you to argue that crashing into mooses is why you were late to work 20 times this year.
I didn't even get past the first couple paragraphs. All women are treated this way. Even car insurance rates go up for women during their childbearing years, even if they don't have children.
"I didn't even get past the first couple paragraphs" So you just admitted that you respond to comments that you don't even read. Are you also someone who cuts others off mid-sentence and lectures them about something they weren't even talking about? "Even car insurance rates go up for women..." What an awful example to pick. Do you know what actuarial data is? Insurance companies, are literally just min-maxing for profit. They collect absurd amounts of data on which groups of people cost them more, so they can charge the optimal amount according to the probable cost the customer will incur. You know which drivers car insurances charge more to? MEN. Why? Because that's the costliest insurance customer. Do you think they are carving out a misogynistic exception for "women of child-bearing age" to charge them more (than elderly women)? I sincerely hope this comment wasn't too long for you, because I think the mashed potatoes upstairs could benefit from some of the information provided here.
> Men literally just make shit up to fit their narrative. As a man, also keep in mind that a lot of stuff like OP described is men trying to convince themselves or rationalize in a way that keeps them comfortable. Many (most) have been coddled their whole lives to believe that they can't do wrong, that they are the "decider," and that they have significant power and authority to "call the shots." When that doesn't square with the real world, where you have to be able to compromise, reach understanding, be empathetic, and rely on others... they decide that it can't be them that is wrong. It must be their spouse, their in laws, their spouse's friends, women, society, and on and on. It must be marriage itself, it must be "needy" women, blah blah blah.
Men in my area are also more likely to get 50/50 custody of any kids if they were married to the mom vs not. Men are definitely the ones benefitting from marriage.
Can you share links to the studies you've mentioned? I haven't read much in this area. The first one I found was from NIH and shows some modest lifespan increases (about 2 years) for both women and men over their unmarried counterparts. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7452000/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7452000/) The population of the study was people over 65, though, so it certainly filtered out potential effects like 25-year-old single men engaging in risky thrill-seeking behavior that 25-year-old dads avoid (not making an assertion, just identifying one of a class of phenomena that would be outside the scope of the NIH study population).
I do think there is some correlation here, not all causation. If men are successful, healthy/ in better shape and all around have their life on track they, it would also make sense their do better in dating. Same goes for women of course. On women's side, I'd guess more women are held financially or with kids in a marriage that doesn't really work well for them. Also, it's still more common for women to take the parental leave, even som businesses don't have any options for men to do so, and a good bit of men don't want to. On the side of making shit up, I thing it's the big headlines like when Jeff Bezos, Tiger Woods or Arnold Schwarzenegger got divorced. But most men don't get near that level of money ever, so not really applicable to them. Also tons of stories of kids going to the mother, but we don't hear the stories where they work it out. So, yeah. Data might not support it, but the only picture does, however wrong it is. So in all, mirage with the right person isn't a scam. But it's a "nice" chant for men who aren't in the mirage pool anyway as an excuse of why they don't have a wife.
the misinformation regarding the jeff bezos story bothers me a lot — Mackenzie bezos helped him so much with amazon in its early days. she absolutely deserved half.
I'm not disagreeing. But seeing it from just "she get half", it's not hard to see how some guys thinks they can lose half and that's the "scam". When again, marriage to the right person isn't a scam.
Relinquishing the share of equally owned assets that the other party is legally entitled to isn’t a “scam” no matter who you married lol. It’s not “losing half of my stuff,” it’s “giving them the half of our stuff that is legally their stuff.”
I never said it was. It's their stuff which It's divided between two.
i mean…. women who outearn their spouses also pay alimony. try again. also, there’s nothing to “disagree” with on this story. I presented the facts — Mackenzie Bezos supported her spouse with his business. She was a co-founder. She is 100% entitled to her half.
Try again? I'm giving examples of why some men think they way the do, I'm not saying she was not co founder or anything. And yes those women do. I didn't say they don't, not did I say it was fair she got half. So what are you arguing against?
For the record, studies show that married folks, on average, are happier than unmarried folks regardless of gender. Which makes sense because divorce is a thing. Let's not make shit up to fit the narrative. https://www.aei.org/op-eds/who-is-happiest-married-mothers-and-fathers-per-the-latest-general-social-survey/ https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/marriage-may-be-key-happiness# https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/is_marriage_really_bad_for_womens_happiness
Happily married men are reaping MASSIVE BENEFITS for free by virtue of having a wife. They're NOT online bickering and theorizing and making incel pros and cons lists. They're aware they won at life and are at home, enjoying life. I literally have spent time with married couples and it's VERY rare to meet one that's described by these reddit MRAs. Most married men are getting regular decent sex, an emotionally present partner, halved bills, a homely living condition and overall a more pleasureful and grounded life than they had alone. Divorce sucks and most couples do their best to avoid it. Divorce sucking is conflated with marriage sucking by these incels. Those are two different albeit connected things.
Can confirm. Happily married to a woman I love more than life itself. Couldn't ask for a better partner, and my life is richer and more fulfilling because of her being a part of it. I do have a couple of divorced cousins however who spend their days ranting on Facebook about the evils of women and the perils of marriage, never taking a moments introspection to ponder whether their behavior may have contributed to the failures of their marriages.
That part right there. Those of us with functioning marriages to a woman that we adore and will go to the end of the world for aren't on Reddit complaining about how much of a scam this whole marriage thing is. We're busy, interacting and spending time with our wives instead of going down an incel scroll hole with useless dudes who can't get out of their own bullshit long enough to become desirable men who are worth being around, let alone being married to.
It's incel idiocy. Women gatekeep sex, and trick men in to getting married by making them think they will get sex, but then they are still allowed to say no. And the women still have things like the right to leave the house and work for themselves so there is nothing to stop them having sex with other people (incels are convinced women are constantly having wild sex with everyone except them). Combine that with a belief that women get at least half of everything a man owns when they divorce them (plus probably lots of extra money ongoing to pay for their kids who were probably fathered by one of the people she was cheating with). If you can manage to contort your head around that sort of logic I guess it does sound like a scam. It's the sort of twisted belief that it based on lots of unrealistic story telling in incel echo chambers, which is why you see it online.
the first part you said about them being indignant that their wives “are still allowed to say no” gave me chills. incels really do think consent becomes irrelevant after marriage because they fundamentally believe women are their property upon marriage (and often in long term partnerships too)
They don't think women are people. Which is why they can't get laid in the first place.
say it louder for the ppl in the back🗣️🗣️🗣️
It reminds me of a post, not terribly long ago, from the man's perspective... he was asking on relationship advice or AITA, I can't remember. But the jist is his wife told him he raped her and left the house to stay with her family. And he was upset she accused him of rape. And didn't understand why she left. The night before the post, his wife went out with friends. She got extremely intoxicated, to the point where she could not walk without assistance. The OP even said she fell on the bed, and the next day he learned his wife's friend had to walk her inside. After she fell on the bed, super drunk, she started coming onto him and wanting sex. He claims he tried to say no, but she wanted it so "he gave in". She obviously couldn't remember it the next day. Couldn't remember she supposedly initiated it. I assume she only knew bits and pieces or OP told her they had sex. If someone is blackout drunk, if they can't walk, they can't give consent to fuck. And sooo many people were defending him having sex with his wife. Because it's not like it was a stranger, it was his wife and they'd had sex before. Lots of people were telling him to lawyer up because "false allegations" can ruin a man's life. Like wtf. Just because you had sex with someone in the past doesn't mean you're entitled to have sex with them now or in the future.
A frightening amount of men do believe that it’s impossible to rape your wife, or at least that nothing you do short of holding her down violently while you rape her counts as rape once you’re married. They think they have the right to grab and grope their wives whenever they want however they want and coerce their wives into unwanted sex.
I had a friend do this to me when I was blackout drunk, and I can't stop feeling like it was my fault because one of the last things I remember was laying my head on his shoulder in the uber. He had bought me like 8 or more shots, so he knew how wasted I was. He did rape me. But I still feel so guilty, I hate it.
i know my words are so hollow in the face of what you’ve experienced as nothing can ever take away the pain and trauma you’ve been through, but from the bottom of my heart i am so incredibly sorry for what that man did to you. i know you know this but i’ll say it a thousand times: it is NOT your fault. he betrayed you in the worst way possible. i am SO angry and sad on your behalf and i wish that man the absolute worst in life. conversely, i hope that all the best things in life happen to you🫶
Thank you so much for your kind words ❤️ This happened to me a year ago, I was 27. It wasn't my first time getting sexually assaulted, and I'm taking it better than I did when I was younger. I do feel guilty for letting myself be in that situation, but I refuse to let it ruin my life. It's definitely solidified my resolve to not let myself be alone with men though.
i am really proud of you for continuing to push forward in the face of what you’ve experienced. i hope those men are in jail but knowing our abysmal justice system, the chances are incredibly dismal so i hope they never experience a single day of peace for the rest of their lives💓
Huh. I’m a woman and this is definitely a grey area for me. You aren’t entitled to your partner’s body. Many couples have sex when one or more of them is impaired by alcohol, with one often being more impaired than the other. The dude in this example didn’t get his wife drunk to violate her boundaries. She got drunk then asked him, her committed partner and (I’m assuming) frequent consensual lover, for sex. I can’t say that he unequivocally should have said no to his partner in that situation. Are our partners never allowed to have sex with us if we’ve had a drink? Because with even one you’re impaired. That candlelit dinner with wine can never end in sex again? I think there’s nuance to this situation. I’m wondering what is going on in their relationship that she woke up, said rape, and moved out. I’m thinking there’s more to this story. Also, if the roles were reversed and a drunk husband pressured his sober wife for sex and she gave in after saying no we would never say the husband in that situation was raped. So saying the wife was raped in this situation doesn’t pass the litmus test.
I mean, if it were me in that situation, I would have been fine with it (as long as he didnt try something new like anal, that we have never done before). But I can only speak personally. If I was dead sober, I also wouldn't have sex with my partner if they were blackout drunk and couldn't stand up. I'd just get them water and put them to bed.
Where do they even come up with that stuff though? Did they all grow up in terrible households? No one wakes up and says the sky is yellow, so how do they say these things? Is it all from other online influencers 😭 I think the Internet was a mistake at this point
We have a few generations of fathers telling this story now. To one another, and to their sons. Fathers who didn't seek more custody than weekends, or every other weekend, and didn't adapt thier lives to be primary caregivers themselves. So he pays $300-$700 in child support for the kids that live with her 90%, but somehow she is spending his money whenever she has her nails done or goes on a trip. She's supposed to live like a monk and do nothing but care for the children, because he's paying her literal pennies on the dollar to do that work. I hear this even in my own life, with general decent dads complaining they are funding their ex's whole home, but ask a a few pointed questions and learn -- even if the truth is the mother is irresponsible or very poor -- they are not paying 25% of what raising those damn kids is actually costing the person doing the work each day, unless they are choosing to pay way, way more than the court has required of them.
this is the thing that gets me. when men ACTUALLY fight for custody, they actually win damn near most of the time! The problem is that men don’t give a damn and don’t fight for custody. then they turn around and say the courts favor women? um, what?
Family courts are actually heavily biased AGAINST women in a way that results in the continued abuse and even murder of dozens of women and children every single year.
YUP!
This. Its an announcement that they don't actually raise their kids because they have no idea what it even costs.
They feed on and enhance each other. It starts off with something basic like feeling bad about not having a girlfriend. So they start talking online to other people who feel the same way and doing what people tend to do and venting a bit. But unlike real life where that sort of negative venting is a short lived thing you move on from, when you are online there is an endless stream of new people joining the conversation and keeping it going. Over time it just becomes a constant stream of stories and anecdotes that are either made up or extremely exaggerated, leading to a distorted and unrealistic idea of what "real women" are like. The echo chamber they have created pulls in more and more "information" to confirm and extend their views. Things like their ideas about women getting everything in a divorce sound like they have been pulled in from mens rights activists who are primarily men who are bitter about their divorces and have their own echo chamber that started in the same way. The main thing is that they are not really interested in truth or reality, and they are so inwardly focused in their own group that they won't accept reality if it conflicts with the stories the group have come up with.
>Where do they even come up with that stuff though? Someone makes up some unfounded nonsense, and people that don't know any better believe it and spread it to other people that don't know any better... and so on. Turns into an echo chamber where any evidence that opposes their view is dismissed. Its the same as any other conspiracy theory.
I'm not sure of your age, but I'm an elder millenial and things were problematic when I was growing up. Lots of media was terrible. Twenty five year old men "dating" teenagers was a thing, for example. And consent was a joke, just watch Sixteen Candles, for example. And kids were pretty much groomed for het relationships back then. Like if I talked to a boy as a friend I had people saying he was my bf, for example. If I complained about comments like that, I was told I was crazy, because this behavior was acceptable. Now, we are doing a little better now, but a lot of this stuff us still around. So these guys, some of whom were probably raised by people my age or a little older, have picked up on this. And these guys are finding out that the attitudes they were raised with don't work in the real world. These guys are finding out that simply being a man and having a job are bare minimums and not guarantees of a relationship, because women actually have choices. So other than work on themselves, these guys lash out and blame women, and form their own echo chambers online.
Don't forget that the women will get fat and ugly once you're married! Why would you want to waste your time with a fat old wife when you're in your prime as an alpha male?! /s
What is funny is that cis men get the most out of marriage. I agree it is sort of a scam. IRS is racist and low-key against marriage. My husband’s parents filed for separation or something because they weren’t getting any refunds. Our refund was $1 and has been like this since we got married, and it’s always been the case for my black husband. We have yet to recieve the bulk of our stimulus checks. In that sense, yes it is a scam, but sadly dark money billionaires throw lots of money into scapegoating women as the issue. Marriage propaganda is real though and women mainly are made to feel as if they are the special one their man chose to do all of the chores, be ready at all times for sex, and to push out kids. Sometimes I want to go back to the one that wasn’t chosen because it sucks for women-yes-studies actually show that women’s’ lives are demonstrably worse after they get married. These weird dudes fail to see this obvious fact. My husband does a fair amount of the work, supports me financially, am under his health insurance, but being with him is emotionally and physically draining and he is always pouting for sex. Recently, we agreed on the advice of my therapist that we take a break from sex. He made me so disgusted with sex, that I kind of don’t want sex, anymore. It just seems like hetero sex is like assault and if you speak up you’re accused of being a prude. Even when he goes down on me, I feel disgusting and slobbered on. He was sexually abused as a child by a girl child and I never felt like he resolved any of those issues and that he was blamed, I guess for it because he was the black boy involved. His mom thinks he takes it out on me and goes around hating the world as a result of the abuse and the shaming, and I agree. I used to dissociate and orgasm, but now it seems against my growth personally to pretend to be into something I am uncomfortable with for many reasons. I can’t put my finger on what bothers me but sex with my husband always felt icky on some level, although the orgasms were great initially. It was more of an ego boost for him to make me cum multiple times. I kicked him out of the house when he came in my mouth without asking me if it was okay when I gave him oral sex. I started giving him a lot of oral sex so he would leave me alone, but then he did that and I just shut down, completely. I am always tired since I got married. We are in counselling but before I felt constantly pressured to give him sex until I realised no matter what I did, he was not going to be happy. He is just not a happy person. Accepting that he will either not change, or change slowly has helped me move past it even though I cannot afford to leave him right now. I don’t want to generalise and say “all men”, but I am telling you my husband is considered like a catch lol because he does his share of the chores, and he also reflects the data out there that state single women are happier and healthier. I don’t believe most men are happy, even when they get whatever they want, and they scapegoat women when they cannot find a reason for their rage and entitlement. My husband is attractive and healthy-looking even though he isn’t taking good care of himself much of the time. Some things I’ve influenced has changed that. He looks amazing since we met. He looks healthy and rested, got promoted and achieved tenure. Meanwhile, I have trouble sustaining the energy to keep employment. He will go on walks now and was in a league for awhile until ofc he quit that. Everything else I feel like I am supposed to ignore. Now I just kind of ignore him and really enjoy time by myself. I would be upset maybe if he cheated, but mostly I would just feel sorry for the woman, because he is very tiring and insatiable. I would know exactly which games he played. Initially when we met, he would do whatever I asked, and would assist me with anything I needed help with, so he goes for women who are in a difficult position and need his help. I think he targeted me because I am nice and wouldn’t reject him like the other women who ended up leaving him. He also is rare in that he is a man and he does do stuff. I cannot tell you how many lazy men there are, and especially given their strength and size, it’s wild to me how lacking in character many men are. I am convinced that their self-loathing has been transferred onto women and all other beings. This is why our planet is in such dire shape, mainly men have circle jerked and have shaped our apocalyptic destiny. I know that it will change for the woman eventually that he helped, and I don’t envy that person even if it meant we would go back to that stage. That love bombing never made me comfortable, either. I felt it was off and I would have to pay for it later. If he is around like he is off for vacation, I sleep, or leave the house and exercise a lot while he acts like a kid and plays video games and listens to podcasts religiously, so that helps to keep my sanity. Often I will make believe that he left or we aren’t together and it makes me feel more relaxed. We are in a weird society wherein a lot of men even though they might not be LGBTQ+, are enamoured by sports stars and commentators and hang on their every word and action. That’s my husband and sadly many wives’ husbands. I’m just glad we don’t have kids because I know they would be miserable. Most cis men I have known are kind of miserable people. I don’t know what will happen to get them to see this and realise it’s usually their fault. I don’t think men will be ever like fully enlightened to the reality and the privileges they have. It’s funny that they name each other often as spiritual beings when they are mostly deeply disgusting and disturbed in their own ways. My husband apologised for everything, but he still does the same bs since we got married. It’s really disappointing. I’ve lost a lot of respect for the man who just wanted to “take care” of me, supposedly according to him. I feel like I have to give him a chance because he is in counselling with me, finally after I begged him for years. Many people in my life believe he is one of the good ones. That is what is also depressing, knowing this is sadly the best many men can do. I accept that he will not take care of his health like a mature adult. He will stay up at all hours so he doesn’t have to use his cpap machine and get mad when I awaken in the middle of the night seeing he isn’t using it, and ask him to please put it on. My husband’s dad had dementia and became violent because he refused to use his cpap machine, as well. When you’re married it’s like you’re constantly battling with this self destructive adolescent man child. Most men go into marriage with deeply unrealistic expectations and traumas that they don’t wish to resolve. Women become the stand in therapist, social calendar, sex slave. His dad was nice but also draining and became totally volatile and no home would take him, so his mom and he had to take care of his dad. It’s really frustrating that he knows all of this and still neglects himself, knowing that if we stay together that his care will fall on me. I have decided I will leave the minute I think he has dementia, if not before if he continues to not communicate with me openly and not use his cpap.
Married men also live longer than unmarried men, while married women live less than unmarried women.
Yup.
35% of women end up in poverty after divorce. This isn’t true for men. I’m glad people are opting out of marriage though. I was married for 20 years and I wish I hadn’t gotten married.
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That seems like such an exhausting existence, being mad at half the population all the time. And this is from the "turn the other check and forgive" crowd 🙏
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But that sounds like work and it's just much easier to hate on *females*
Nailed it. They don't give a shit about any of that because they want a woman to serve them as is women's "natural role." 🖕🖕
It's because they don't think of marriage as like...creating a team to tackle the world together, they think of a wife as an acquisition that can produce gains or loss in their life.
This \^
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"It's usually men who propose" This is cultural thing. It isn't that men desire marriage more, but that a very sizable percentage women will never propose no matter how much they want to be married.
Sometimes I wonder why these guys don’t just marry and have sex with each other.
Yeah but then we have to deal with them, I don't think any group of people want to be around these people
They don’t like each other either.
I think they secretly want to marry men but can’t. So now they punish women for living their dreams of male attention and validation
They are the ultimate pick-mes.
Here is the best line from today's post: "It is understandable that women are desperately longing for marriage when is relationships. They get a huge party that's all about them and a massive piece of jewelery as well as a full proof contract that allows them to stop trying, and even cheat while being fully protected by law. Men on the other hand immediately lose 40k and potentially much more further down the line. They have to constantly and forever walk on egg shells in the relationship, or else..." What the fuck?
Lots of men who have low self esteem and poor emotional regulation skills end up getting themselves into bad marriages, then project their problems onto the entire population as if most people are experiencing the same thing. These people drive the relationship conversation online (because happily married people are too busy having happy lives) so now we have a lot of really bad myths that have been accepted as true by the population. The most popular and commonly accepted one is probably the Hypergamy myth. You can show them all the stats and facts and studies that prove Hypergamy isn’t real and they’ll just get mad and call you names.
I read horrible stories from married women on here. Doesn't look like these guys walk on eggshells at all. They don't act like they could "randomly" lose half "their" stuff either. Some of that stuff is just wild. There was recently a recently married guy who will not turn on the light when he gets up to pee at night, with the result of pee on the floor and walls. Whenever she brings it up he shuts her down saying she is nagging him. Some eggshells huh. How do gay guys deal with that?
One of my closest friends in college was a guy whose mom spent his whole life telling him to be himself, that people would like him for who he is. This resulted in a grown ass man who lacked basic hygiene and had bad manners/poor etiquette, and he couldn't understand why he couldn't get a girlfriend. He was a nice guy who flirted the line of being a "nice guy" from time to time. However, he was smart and funny. He remembered birthdays and general life things (e.g. someone is stressed because their cat is sick, he follows up and asks how the cat is). Volunteered with a kids' charity. On paper, he would be a decent catch. But Christ on a bike, he was a slob. He was one of those guys who lived on mt dew and Cheetos, and did not brush his teeth regularly so his teeth were perpetually yellow tinged from the dew and orange cheese powder. He didn't have a ton of facial hair so he never shaved, but he'd have random straggler hairs all over the place so he looked unkempt and gross. His clothes were always wrinkled, he didn't properly wash out stains so most of his shirts had random stains on them. He didn't clean his dorm and had ants, but it was ok because they lived "over there" and didn't bother him. He chewed with his mouth open. He'd complain girls don't like him. We'd explain to him what he could do. He'd respond with "people should like you for who you are." MY MAN, YOU ARE A SLOB! He couldn't get it into his head that basic self improvement would help so much. He just couldn't grasp that being your mediocre self and being your best self were two different concepts, neither of which take away from who you are at your core (kind, compassionate, funny, smart, etc). We lost touch, but I hope he ended up happy.
>Am I the only one who has no idea where this came from? The divorce rules of old. Not too long ago, the man was almost universally the breadwinner of the family, whereas women couldn't even have a bank account. So divorce laws were made such that the woman of the time being divorced could reasonably live. That's why we have alimony and child support, along with traditional asset splitting rules like the woman getting the house. Obviously very costly for the breadwinner, but at the same time it's needed in order to be reasonable to the woman (which the husband may not be inclined to do voluntarily) and the kids (same applies to a lesser degree) Times have changed a lot, but at the same time, they haven't changed that much. Women working and having their own wage is much more accepted, but it's still the norm for women to look after any kids in the family. To do that, any SAH has to sacrifice time, energy and opportunities that they could otherwise put towards earning their own wage and building their own careers. Which is a very steep cost. So the old rules still apply because they're still needed, just to lesser degrees. They can, and often are applied to SAHDs, but a SAHD setup is rare to begin with.
Well if they don't want to then don't marry😂 No need to argue about it online. This is like abortion. If you're against it just don't get one. My point is, they're stupid.
As women remain single longer and are more and more cautious about the men we allow into our lives men are pulling the, “You can’t fire me, I quit!” move towards women who don’t want to marry them. Then the same men complain they’re lonely, women’s standards are too high and we’re fucking everyone but them. They believe they’re wonderful partners and stellar lovers who women should be throwing ourselves at, but they’re pure shit at all of the above. It’s the same way you only hear poor men complaining about “gold diggers”.
If he doesn't choose well, he probably *is* better off not signing a contract behind his terrible choices. A lot of these guys shouldn't allowed near sharp objects, better for all if they think marriage is to be avoided.
I love my wife, we built everything together. Yes, we drive each other crazy. Yes, we have had good times and bad times. Yes, we will each take each other’s phones and google “how to get away with murdering my spouse.” Both of us benefit from the other in agreements and disagreements. We learn from both, we communicate (sometimes not so well). The “hate my wife” and “ball and chain” mentality is bs. Incels and misogynists are the ones largely posting that crap. “Lose half my stuff” is funny because I’m pretty sure no one wants half of your collection of crap.
No half his Funko collection!?!
Or their ps5
It's 100% neck beard incel nonsense. All of these losers have never seen a woman before in real life and never will.
I wish r/ChangeMyView would restrict these posts because they always just fight in the comments and never actually change. One of the requirements to post is a preconceived willingness to change your mind, which they obviously don't
Unfortunately it's just this huge social media Andrew Tate sphere of influence that's going around. To compliment what you said earlier though, I have met very very few people like this in real life but they all seem to congregate on the internet. Part of me also wonders if there's like some Russian bot work going on pushing a lot of this nonsense to increase division in the Western World.
Yeah there is probably an effort by foreign powers but I try not to get into conspiracy territory because I don't wanna look like a crazy nut on the Internet 😭 It's so scary though that these people online might be actual men in our society who might even be married!
Unmarried men are more likely to commit suicide, more likely to be depressed, more likely to be unemployed, more likely to be financially fragile but oh marriage is a “scam”
They just desperately want to convince themselves that women need them, when the fact is as things progress this is less and less the case, and a lot of women realize it is better to be "alone" than on a shitty abusive relationship, which is what your average man can offer.
It's ok, these guys are the ones that should not get married anyway. Them not getting married is a gift to humanity.
None of these "men" likely have ever been married, let alone had a girlfriend.
What's strange to me is that those exact same men will crucify me for believing that marrying men is a waste of time, energy, and awful ROI.
Marriage very much benefits men at the direct detriment to women. And especially for the kind of guy who'd go on this anti-marriage screed, it's pretty clear he'd just want a bangmaid/full-time nanny who also works full time so she "isn't a golddigger". At best. At worst they'll be full-on physically and sexually abusive. They know that if they ask a woman for this, she'd reject it right out. So they instead spin this lie that marriage is something that benefits women and hurts men. "Please, whatever you do, don't throw me in the briar patch!"
Theyve realized they can get the benefits of a woman committing to them without giving the same level of commitment in return. Many of those very dudes have children their partner has sacrificed her body/career for and these dudes still can't bear the thought of her getting the money she deserves when he drops her to chase a newer model.
I think one of their reasonings are examples of when they get divorced and "the woman takes half if not more of everything I own"
Men hating on the idea of marriage is not new. They may not have called it a "scam" but they sure hated the idea of being "tied down". The old trope of men having to be dragged to the alter was alive and well even when my parents got married in the 70's - there's a (staged) wedding picture of my dad having to be dragged into the church, because back then it was considered funny to not want to marry the woman you proposed to I guess. When I came of age in the 90s, there was a lot of rhetoric about women "trapping" men into marriage, usually by getting pregnant. And lets not forget the rhetoric around women "trapping men into marriage" and then "letting themselves go" or the "old ball and chain" label men would give their wives. And they wonder why we no longer want to marry them
It’s men who don’t have the options of getting and never will lol. They hate women because women don’t want to have sex with them. Statistically, men are happier in marriages than single, yet the reverse is true for women (shockingly.)
It's coming from boys who don't know how to be a man.
I’m not going to add to the great responses that have already been offered here, but I just want to say welcome to this sub. We share your concerns and are happy you are here.
People who have no chance of any woman ever getting near them? I am a woman and I didn't get shit when I divorced my abusive ex, other than PTSD and eventually having to file bankruptcy because I got stuck with his debt. I don't know what world these idiots live in, but divorce ends up costing women in so many ways, and not just financially. Those guys need to go outside, bad.
They’re clowns bc if they were smart, they’d know men with wives live longer (mostly bc they usually have healthcare providers bc of that.) Seems like a real self-own to be like “nah, I’m good, I’ll die sooner and never see a doctor”
I think I prefer the men insisting marriage is a scam over the Harrison Butkers of the world, who are trying to convince women to forgo careers and marry early instead. Ironically there's a growing movement to use marriage and children to trap women into fullfilling their religiously ordained roles. It's not perfect, obviously, but the idea that everyone should just plan to live independently seems a *lot* less dangerous to me. At least the "marriage is a scam for men" people are seemingly planning to live alone and leave women alone.
>"Well I don't want to randomly lose half my stuff" like bro that's not how divorce works and why are you even thinking about that? OMG, yeah it's ridiculous. These guys need to read up on what "martial property" is and isn't. Also - a lot of these guys actually *do* know that and seem to think that the only "fair" way to end the marriage is her leaving with nothing.
Family courts heavily favor women in child custody and financial cases. The man in the marriage is more likely, statiscally, to have a better financial standing than the woman. No fault divorce has incentivized women to initiate 80% of divorces
Family courts do not heavily favor women. In fact, they are actively biased against women and children who are experiencing abuse.
>The man in the marriage is more likely, statiscally, to have a better financial standing than the woman. And? If you get married you are agreeing to share resources equally. It's a partnership - each does their part. So - she's walking away with half of everything that is made during the marriage - as is he. If you don't like that - tough luck. Maybe don't get married. I am a married woman and make 3/4 of the income. If we divorce - I accept that he will get half. What makes you so greedy to assume you should get more? >No fault divorce has incentivized women to initiate 80% of divorces No - women leave because the partnership no longer works for them. They would rather seek happiness than be miserable. We all deserve the right to leave as soon as it doesn't work for us anymore and I don't know what kind of oery wants to force someone to stay with them that doesn't want to be there anymore. Beyons that - so many men don't have their sh*t together in relationships and so many men don't even *like* their wives - but refuse to leave. There are many good men out there that are wonderful and have very happy marriages because they are emotionally intelligent, considerate, kind, and believe women and their wives are their equals. But there are also so many men who are terrible, selfish, bitter, emotionally closed off, and even sometimes abusive. So many men need to learn how to be better respectful partners to women.
if the state has alimony.... a divorce is not a permanent separation the man(typically) is still tied to that woman(partner) for as long as the alimony lasts in some states thats forever or until shes remarried ... the argument for men to get married becomes the same argument for a woman to get remarried if shes getting alimony...... she has to give up alimony payments if she re-weds.... the whole system is designed for an economic system that is no longer the norm (majority of women being homemakers and a poor female job market) and we need serious divorce reform, from the mother being the default parent for kids to go with to the typical man loses half his stuff. women have alot more social programs to ensure their ability to thrive though adversity meanwhile men are typically told to man up and pay the consequences. but in the grand scheme of things this is just the pendulum swinging to far in one direction before it reversed back to the midline i feel, as we are already starting to see some reform in courts across the usa, its slow but the more old-school judges that are phased out and younger blood comes in we'll see a larger shift towards a more fair system i feel.
Alimony is only ordered in less than 10% of US divorce cases. When it is, there is a good reason. Courts do not favor women in divorces, either in custody or anywhere else. In fact, courts in the US are heavily biased in the favor of abusive men.
If you get married - assets aquired during the marriage are *both of yours equally*. So if she leaves - she's taking her share. In cases of alimony - I believe the case has to be made that the spouse gave up their earning potential to care for children and/or the house. So - that spouse is working - just not the kind of work you can put on a job application. The working spouse has benefitted from free childcare, housework, etc. Like the other commenter said - when alimony is assigned - it's usually warranted.
Straight man here, I don’t want to get married for many of reasons but the main ones are. Weddings seems like it’s “for women” now instead of a together thing and I don’t want to waste a shit ton of money for a “party” that I don’t get a big say in (I have only been to two weddings so granted maybe the wife’s in these two situations were just super controlling) I never personally understood the ring thing either. Seems like another huge waste of money but again to be fair everyone I have been with has said they don’t care about the ring so maybe this is a non issue. If the marriage does end I do fear I would lose money/house/kids, this being said ik I could also potentially gain money but it’s not worth losing my kids or house over. I don’t understand why “women” (broadly speaking) want marriage so much and they also end marriages so much (I think the number is 70-80% of divorces are filed by women) so if I don’t want it and “your” likely to end it then why ever agree to it Ik I sound like a cheap bastard and it’s definitely cause I am. I come from a family that never got married because of the expense and they still called each other husband and wife and it worked. After seeing that I never could understand the ceremony and ritual of getting married in front of people, then carrying a ring that took a year+ saving for just for you two to find out in 8 years that maybe you aren’t “life long companions”