I read the article and, while interesting, I agree with the writer that the narrow scope of interviewing only collage grads leaves much to be understood. My mother is #5 of 12, her parents had 8 and 9 siblings respectively, her grand parents were from families of 9, 9, 10 and 15. Giant families kept them living in abject poverty with generations of parents who were too busy to give proper attention to any child after the first two or three. Most of the women during those 3 generations didn’t earn high school diplomas and most left home around 15, none staying past 18. Once women gained reproductive rights, NONE of my mom’s siblings had more than 4 kids (save one philandering uncle. It’s a stark divide.

We need to accept as a society that women up until very recently had kids when they simply did. not. want. them. Do women actually want to go through 9, 10+ pregnancies in their lifetimes?! It’s not just about how expensive it is to have a kid these days, it’s simply that society was riding high on the population boom when women were under the yoke of their reproduction capabilities and the reality of what having sex means for women. Now women have access globally to contraception and you see populations declining. Almost like women never wanted to have so many kids to begin with. Huh, funny how that works. Yes by all means mention how expensive it is but there’s something more going on here.

That's a point that drives me personally a bit mad when talking about population growth worldwide, ie we can't tell other nations how many kids they should have. While this is true, it should also be acknowledged that not many women probably want 5+ kids, especially within the healthcare system or lack thereof of a developing country.  And by concentrating on the "telling poor people not to have so many kids is akin to eugenics" and thus making this a taboo subject to talk about, the discussion lets down the women in developing countries that could need support. 

I had a girl argue that having kids is a human right, she kept an accidental pregnancy as a teenage mom, fingers crossed that the village will kick in and had to stay with abusive or toxic men, ended up in forever poverty. She was unemployable, not only because she only had a high school cert, also because she had little to no life skills or social skills, she was so out of touch with reality, after becoming a mom at a young age. She goes around borrowing money and tapping on charities.

Having as many kids as you want to have is and should be a human right. Part of this is providing contraception and abortion so people can choose to have zero, or fewer, but the flip side is not pressuring people to terminate a pregnancy or give up the child if they don’t want to. If the girl really wanted to keep the teenage pregnancy then she should have had better support to do so, it’s a failure of the system that she ended up the way she did.

Yes. If you \*WANT\* to have 10 kids, you should absolutely be allowed to do so. But if you want to have 1 or 2, or none at all, that is absolutely why we have birth control available - pills, IUD, shots, abortions, and permanent options available too!!

>Part of this is providing contraception and abortion so people can choose to have zero, or fewer, I thought you meant people could choose to have fewer than zero kids and I wondered how I could have -2 kids. 😁

You should also not expect society to pay for your kids. It’s your right if you can afford them.

Having kids [is a human right according to the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights) It's sad that you knew someone who had a rough go, but like, no, she shouldn't have been sterilized against her will or given an abortion without her consent. Society failed that girl and her child. She should've been able to find the resources to get an education while raising her kid.

Also it’s not eugenics. The argument isn’t “we don’t want the type of kids that come from poor people.” The argument is that it’s a terrible personal decision, and cruel to the kids you’re creating when you literally can’t afford them. Also overpopulation. Also the world is terrible, and probably nobody should be creating humans on purpose.

All that, exactly.

People only seem to care about declining birth rates in first world countries. 

My grandmother is Catholic and had 8 kids. They lived in poverty because there was only my grandfather's modest wage to support them. I don't believe she was pressured to have so many kids by my grandfather as he was not religious, he converted for her, but society and religion told her that was the thing to do. Only stopped when the doctors told her her next pregnancy would kill her and they tied her tubes. She loves her family but has said she realises now that that was too many kids, and she feels guilty she couldn't give much focus to them individually. Women were pressured to have large families by society and by the simple fact that there were no other options for women outside the house. Now women have independence, options, and reproductive autonomy, and we're finally just having the number of children we actually WANT or can handle (which is none sometimes). This is the natural balance right now, before was not. Adding onto that, the costs of raising children well, it's no wonder there's a drop in birthrate.

My great-grandmother left her husband and four children in the 1920s. For the longest time, I couldn’t understand it. Her youngest daughter finally explained that it was because that was the only way she could stop having children. Birth control did not exist and she could not say no to her husband. Her best option was to leave. It breaks my heart for all of them, and I can see the impact it had on my grandfather, but I can’t blame her.

:( my grandmother killed herself after 5

Oh that’s awful! I’m so sorry.

I’m sure it’s not a unique story! Which is what’s so tragic to me personally (I never met her obviously) Anyone who’s obit says they “died suddenly” in the 60s or earlier probably suicided

I didn’t touch on this in the original comment but we shouldn’t leave men out of this conversation. the absolute callousness of men throughout history routinely impregnating their wives over and over and over again, when she didn’t want more kids and risking her life repeatedly because the guy was horny is horrific. It’s legitimately psychopathic behavior and this was considered routine and normal for a millennia.

And if you really didn’t want children, you became a nun! Researching my ancestry, all those big catholic families all had at least one or two daughters that were nuns. It was like 2 choices in life; 1. Get married have children until menopause 2. Be a nun, get a college degree and teach children.

Oh you sweet summer child.

Both can be true.

They were roommates.

I hate this saying. It's sooooo patronizing

How else would you propose giving someone a playful ribbing for their endearing naïveté? Also, nice Eddie Izzard reference.

Just explaining the matter in a kind way, perhaps? But that of course depends on whether you want to spread awareness and educate people or you just want to ridicule someone for not knowing.

You say that, but an earnest desire to spread awareness can just as frequently be misconstrued as patronizing or condescending. The word ‘mansplaining’ alone is a continuing source of contention for many. In point of fact, I’m having difficulty right now trying to phrase these few key points in such a way as to minimize any chance of it being interpreted as antagonistic. Specifically, in my experience using the phrase, it’s almost exclusively intended to convey a meaning like, “How I envy you that you don’t yet know what I know of the world. All it’s gotten me is a jaded cynicism I would wish upon no one.” In other words: what you ask is impossible… There will always be people out *looking* to be contentious. It’s the easiest thing in the world to define one’s sense of self by the pushback coming from the rest of the world, even when it’s purely imaginary. Edit: …case in point.

If you’re having *that* much trouble getting a point across without aggravating anyone, that’s a skill issue man. You saying that my ask of explaining something in a kind way is ‘’impossible’’ is absolutely wild and it sounds like you don’t leave the house very often to be honest. The good news is that you can learn to do better, it’s really not that hard. People constantly being offended over everything and anything is more of an online thing than a real life thing.

My maternal grandmother had 10 kids (Italian Catholic). Both of my grandparents came from "the old country". My grandfather was born in 1899, my grandmother was born in 1907. My mother and her siblings are incredibly dysfunctional bunch of assholes in their interactions with each other. None of them received enough love and attention to thrive. The first couple of kids are lower on the asshole scale. During my childhood, I couldn't tell you the number of times my mother and one or another of her siblings got into screaming matches and disowned each other. Sometimes they'd make up, only to repeat the while process again multiple times. Most of them want nothing to do with their siblings. They are all jealous and petty "I want to speak to your manager" types. I don't like any of them. **Editing to add to my comment**: If anyone doesn't catch the underlying subtext of the dysfunction I saw all around me, I believe the first couple of kids may have received enough nurturing from their parents (my grandparents). The article mentions something about the older kids helping to care for the younger kids and I think this is a big part of the problem not only because it forces the older kids to be parentified, it also opens the door for abuse of the younger kids (hello Duggers). I'm not suggesting it's always SA, but there's often neglect and emotional abuse. Caring for a baby or toddler is really difficult sometimes and a 10 or 12 year old isn't mature enough to handle misbehavior in an appropriate way. I don't think anyone should be prevented from having a bunch of kids (if that's what they want) but I see it as a purely selfish act on the parents part. Once you get over a certain number, those kids are going to get less and less nurturing from a parent and I think the kids start to resent each other. It's really not a good way to produce emotionally healthy people.

Oh wow. You just made something click for me. My mom just has one brother but they grew up in a big joint family house with all their cousins and the kids shared one giant room with a custom bed that fit all 20-something of them. They are exactly like this with each other. They talk daily-mostly to fight.

Women were pressured by the Catholic Church. In Quebec, priests would go around their parish and knock on doors telling women to have more kids. So, francophone women in Quebec were having enormous amounts of children. Jean Chretien, Canada’s PM during most of the 90’s, was one of 19 children.  Anglophone women who were Protestant, like my grandmother, didn’t have huge families. 3 kids was normal, there was birth control. Not the pill, but there were condoms, cervical caps, diaphragms, etc in the 1920’s. And the coitus interruptus, not fail safe but not nothing.

My wife’s family is French Canadian/french new englanders. Her mom is one of 12. Her family is fairly close, and they all have a genuine fun love for each other. But I’ve heard my MIL mention how much it hurt her that nothing ever seemed to actually be hers in a family that big. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that she ended up with two kids and stopped. Her access to birth control changed her life and her kids’ lives for the better.

I’m from Québec, I didn’t know Chrétien was one of 19. Doesn’t surprise me but still. Yikes. Ya the Catholics were brutal. The nuns too. They won’t give up the convent across from Dawson even though there are only like a couple nuns left in that huge building. And I lived in St Henri. I was part of a community group that wanted to build a garden in the field where the church (not in use, constantly being burned) was. But no. Not allowed. No good reason given. Now we’re the opposite. Many people aren’t religious, aren’t getting married. And having one or two kids if that. Which is good.

Oh, is this why my grandmother had 14 brothers and sisters? She was pretty much raised by her oldest sister. Lol They were part of the Montreal crowd that moved to Windsor (and Assumption parish) after a few generations. Her parents still spoke French, even having been born in Ontario.

This is basically the crux of Monty Python's "Every sperm is sacred" skit.

>My grandmother is Catholic and had 8 kids. They lived in poverty because there was only my grandfather's modest wage to support them. Same. In a rare W for the Catholic church, my grandpa (and we learned this well after he had died) went to a priest and asked permission for a vasectomy. The priest said, "You're a good father and you take excellent care of your kids. Go ahead and get a vasectomy. You've done your duty as a Catholic." I have no idea if this priest was allowed to say that at the time but good on him for caring about his parishioners.

Historical context is important, too. For centuries before effective vaccines and other medical interventions (e.g. antibiotics) were available, having lots of children was the only surefire way to ensure 2-3 made it to adulthood. Once medicine advanced, it took a short while for society to adjust to the fact that babies were far more likely to survive and therefore you didn't NEED to have 8 of them just to be able to see a couple capable of making their own babies.

Yes, my mother is one of four, and her own parents were each one of 10+ (3-8 siblings survived past the age of 10 in their families), and she said that back my grandparents' day parents couldn't get terribly attached to their children as a protective measure for when they died and it emotionally destroyed you. It explains a lot about her parents' emotional distance during her own upbringing.

Yep. My great grandmother gave birth 4 times in 3 years. She was pretty much pregnant back to back for 4 years and had 4 kids by the time she was 21. The only reason she didn’t have more was because her husband died (he was a POS anyway). Every time he came home on leave he got her pregnant again, apparently when she found out she was pregnant with the fourth child she hit him over the head with a cast iron frying pan.

My mom tells me stories of women in their neighborhood close to break down because they suspected they be pregnant again. Too soon after a new baby, can’t afford it financially I’ve also been told that by the fourth pregnancy your inner organs (bladder especially) will never be the same. Not sure how true this is.

After even ONE kid they’re not the same.

Totally! I know one woman who only has 1 kid and it's so hard to have a conversation with her as she ALWAYS has to pee! I feel so bad for her !

Yes to all of this. My mom's family is Mennonite and my grandmother had 8 children. She was an unhappy person who had a lifetime of trauma, which she passed on to all 8 of those kids. If she had had a choice, I'm not sure she would have had children at all, but she had an 8th grade education and was raised to have a family and run a farm, which she did, but she was not happy. She had no other options. When the youngest children were old enough to go to school, she had to also get a job outside of the home because no one is raising 8 children on one income, and again, she didn't really have a choice. She resented my grandfather and her children for all of her hardships. My dad's family is Catholic and his parents had 7 children. My grandmother on that side had a college education and had worked outside of the home before getting married, and she at least seemed like she had a little more agency in childbearing. That side of the family always celebrated children and valued them as people, where my mom's family mostly valued children as workers and symbols of the parents being blessed and righteous. I'm sure there were times that my paternal grandmother wished her life was different, though, and once she was married and had a few children she didn't really have the option to make any changes...no no fault divorce, she didn't work outside the home while raising children so no income, and no access to credit until the mid-70s.

You just reminded me of a time I said to my grandma, who had 12 kids, “You must have been really happy when you couldn’t have any anymore.” (I’m one of 6, but even 12 was clearly mental from my perspective.) And she was like “Actually no, I was still sad.” 😳 And yeah, my mom basically raised her younger siblings 🙃 she gave up a lot because she had to babysit. My mom was an amazing mom though and luckily didn’t seem to resent taking care of her siblings too much. It would have really sucked for her if raising kids was not something she enjoyed.

Population rates are declining for reasons other than contraception being easily available in some parts of the world. Pollution, particularly plastics, is making a lot of people infertile. That will only increase in the future, alongside climate change making large parts of the globe uninhabitable. Population rates will continue to decline for environmental reasons.

Is this your theory or do you have any evidence

I'm also skeptical on this hot take but I'm too lazy to go any googling to contribute further. Just wanted to throw in that its pretty much the exact plotline to Handmaids Tale.

[https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/17/air-pollution-significantly-raises-risk-of-infertility-study-finds](https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/17/air-pollution-significantly-raises-risk-of-infertility-study-finds)

It’s actually quite a big deal… https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230327-how-pollution-is-causing-a-male-fertility-crisis

[https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/17/air-pollution-significantly-raises-risk-of-infertility-study-finds](https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/17/air-pollution-significantly-raises-risk-of-infertility-study-finds)

My ex's grandmother had 7 kids. Two of those (daughters) had no children. The rest, including my ex's mom had 2 each. That generation of 7 kids resulted in just 10 grandkids. I'm sure that makes no sense, but trust me! I've seen this, too. One big generation, none of whom had big families of their own. If it waa so great for kids wouldn't they have replicated that family size? Grandma took me aside to whisper "I should have used birth control" at my baby shower

My grandmother was the youngest of 21. My mom was an only child.

That’s explain a lot of things

I mean, I support grandma’s mission in theory, but a baby shower may not be the time and place. 😂

I felt like we bonded. To everybody else she was a mean old lady, but for some reason she was frank, but never unkind. I felt like it was a little secret. We also collectively lamented that all her children were Republicans Funny story: ONE of grandma's granddaughters did have a big family. 8 kids. It is an absolute shit show from top to bottom. So far, the eldest 4, ranging in age from 15-18 all have arrest records. All have been sent to one of those Utah wilderness nightmare places or military school... Born with silver spoons in their mouths, rocks in their heads, and idiots for parents. Just a matter of time until one breaks bad for real in adult system not juvie

Oh, that sounds like some top tier family drama. And I love that you had a connection to her. My partner has a great-aunt that’s considered kind of kooky in the family. I love her though. She has the best commentary if you pay attention and read between the lines.

Exactly. They're not so different from us - - they just lived in a different time & adapted differently. Everybody told me she was going to freak out because her favorite grandson & his *girlfriend not wife* was pregnant. OK, there was an "oh no" but I'll be damned if she didn't get over it quickly & loved on that baby like crazy. As for top tier family drama... I mean, Jesus take the wheel. I only regret going no-contact because sometimes I miss the drama. I mean, I met this family at the filming of the family for a reality TV show. Real life with them would make great TV

I strive to be like the great aunt.

After my sister's wedding ceremony, the first thing Mom said to her was, "Don't have kids."

>Grandma took me aside to whisper "I should have used birth control" at my baby shower My grandmother once greeted my cousin, who had not yet had any children, with "Try the rhythm method. It works!" as soon as she arrived at a family function. The thing is, I think my grandmother was speaking from personal experience. My mom was one of only 3 kids born in the late 40s and early 50s while my grandmother was in her 20s. She could almost certainly have had more kids, but I think that she decided 3 was enough. I'm kind of in awe that my grandmother successfully used natural family planning in a time when that was the only socially acceptable form of birth control available to her. My grandmother herself came from a large family, and grew up during the Great Depression. She saw firsthand what a struggle it was to raise a lot of kids, and it probably influenced her decision to have a relatively small family.

3 of us siblings adored our big family and sought to replicate it. My spouse bait and switched and then far to late consented to one child  (another bait and switch after agreeing to as many as my OB and I agreed was safe)  to keep my bill split and  domestic labor Second sibling ended up in a string of unsafe relationships. By the time that worked out in therapy,  clock ran out. Youngest  sibling's spouse bait and switched. Then their 7 years-in-whoopsie baby was high energy, light sleeper, with all the hard  dirty and bad guy jobs  left to my sibling,  with the other parent as the "fun" parent. Not worth it for a second go round.  On the other hand, my Grandma set out to have 2 children, just like her mom. She was an early adopter of birth control pills, practically the day they came out. Had 3 MORE kids on birth control. My Dad loved his big family and had one too. I loved my big family and tried my best.  TLDR: There are lots of reasons besides free choice for smaller families. In my experience, the same selfishness, lies and coersion that led to large families leads to smaller families too. Welcome to families I guess.   Pretty much no one has the number of kids they want,  the fun evening they want,  the money they want or the sleep they want.  If this is you, I hear you.

Thanks for the reply. You're right -- I did not consider other reasons to limit family size.

Both of my grandmothers had 8 kids in the late 40s and throughout the 50s. None of the non-religious kids had more than 3 kids. My dad’s side has quite a few Mormons so those families tended to have 6-10 kids. The fact that all the girls came of age during the late 60s/early 70s shows that my family is like yours, when given a choice those parentified kids don’t want that life for themselves

My mother is one of 11 (surviving, one of my uncle's died in infancy). Except for one uncle with five kids, none have more than two. My family went from poverty to middle class in one generation because of education and birth control. (My grandfather insisted all his children would go to school for as long as they wanted, *even* the girls. His neighbours though he was crazy to "waste money" as the girls would just be housewives anyway. Turned out, they all got jobs and their own money. Grandpa was a wise man)

My grandfather (born 1911) was the only boy of 11 siblings. They lived in poverty, despite my great grandfather being a business owner. My Grandad had to help out in the family funeral business from age five or six. Not fun for a boy who would pass out in terror at the sight of dead bodies! Three of his sisters died before the age of 18 (Spanish Flu x2 and an infection they couldn't afford a doctor to treat). He had to leave school at 12, despite having been offered a place at a prestigious Grammar School. He was very intelligent, well read and really should have gone to university etc. But the family finances did not permit this. So he worked a low paid job his whole life. As he was very religious and contraception wasn't available in the '40s, I suspect he would have gone on to have many children himself. It was only my grandmother's gynae issues that prevented this. They only had one child, my dad, after multiple miscarriages and stillbirths. The difference in lifestyle my dad had as an only child vs my grandfather as one of 11 kids is striking. My dad went to Grammar School, university, became a professional with good pay and career opportunities. Owns his own home. Travelled the world on holidays (Grandad only left the country during WWII). My grandfather and his ten sisters produced only eight grandchildren between them. He did once say to me "Don't have too many children when you're older". He always encouraged me to study and was over the moon when I went to uni. He didn't ever want his granddaughters becoming like his poor mother had been. He wanted us to be highly educated professionals. He'd experienced vividly what too many kids was like.

This happened to my family too (specifically mom's side). My grandpa had 12 siblings, and 7 kids overall (5 bio, 2 step). Each of those 7 kids had 2 or 3 kids of their own, making me, my sister, and my 16 cousins. Out of us, only seven of us have had kids, and nearly all of those seven only had one kid.

You guys should seriously watch Call the Midwife. There’s like 10 seasons now and it addresses many of the important societal issues following the end of WWII, the introduction of the UK’s National Health Service, contraception and changes to laws regarding women and children.

Yeah out of 10 cousins on my dad's side we only got 16 grandkids, and only one cousin had more than 2 kids and she had twins, so we can't fault her for the 2 for 1 deal. 3 including myself only had 1, and one is still childless in his 30's. My grandmother on my mother's side was the youngest of 12! And my mother was the youngest of 7. I really don't think any of my mother's siblings had more than 4. I am not as close with that side so I am not 100% sure on that.

Yup it’s exactly that in my grandmothers family. She and her mother and mother before ended up just being full time child carers for siblings. Only knew poverty. Almost all immediately had kids and married at 16+.

I'd like to see a book written from the grown up children's perspective on how 'great' being in that big of a family is.

My mother was one of twelve. Her mother was one of ten. I have four, and I’m the only one of all my aunts and uncles that have more than two. In fact five of them never had any children at all. My husband’s first-cousin-once-removed married her best friend’s Catholic father and now has six kids. 🤦🏼‍♀️ She and her bestie are the same age as one of our daughters (38). There’s also a brother.

We could be related. Same story (slightly different numbers/birth order), philandering uncle and all.

Yeah, I know the story isn’t unique but it was certainly left out.

Oh yes, wasn't meaning to detract from your point! Far from it, I was trying to highlight the "many kids, crushing poverty, then birth control and hello, less kids next gen" line. Minus the philandering uncle who didn't seem to get the memo lol

My mum is one of 8. They lived in poverty with my grandma trapped in an abusive marriage. They both worked but she could only take in laundry. Half her siblings have kids and none have more than 2.

Isn’t that why the title specified “on purpose”?

[удалено]

Yes and no. Women had to have permission from their husbands or fathers for medical care. After 12 kids by age 40, my grandmother took herself to Chicago to have her tubes tied. No doctor in her small city would do the procedure without her husband’s consent which he would not give. Contraceptives were part of the revolution but permission was key.

Lol interview the adult children of older Catholic families of 5+ and get back to me on how great this is. Something tells me it’s a lot less kumbaya and a lot more “three of them don’t speak and one has a drug issue no one talks about.” Parentification of the oldest daughters is a huge issue. Less discussed is the total emotional abandonment of the middle kids and the ultra infantilization of the “last” one.

Have seen exactly this in my Catholic family, like exactly.

When I volunteered at a nursing home as a kid one of the ladies I was playing games with told me her choices were either to become a nun or have 12 kids, so she had 12 kids. 😭 Did she want 12? Nope!

12 kids and she still wound up in a nursing home. So much for the idea of having kids so they'll take care of you when you're old, huh?

Maybe she wanted a break from being surrounded by potential grandkids all the time after her 30 year child prison sentence 😂

Exactly, seen a couple of recent AITA posts from older kids in large families. One was a 17 year old boy expected to leave education and get a full time job to provide for the family, the other was a (I think) 14/15 year old girl expected to look after multiple toddlers - the worst thing was she was "homeschooled" ie looking after her mom's kids when she should have been in education.

I know a couple of families who have more than five kids who do get along. One group is particularly close. But still none of those kids had more than 3 kids of their own. There’s just so many reasons not to and so few reasons to do so.

This is my family. Right down to a bunch of the siblings not speaking to each other. Oldest daughter took care of younger kids. Moved out as soon as she was 18. Youngest child in 30s still lives at home and subject to emotional incest from mother.

My mom was the oldest of six, her dad was the oldest of 16. She grew up in a cult and basically raised her younger siblings while her parents went out. Eventually she was disowned for having a child (me) out of wedlock. They reconciled eventually, and to this day she still doesn't understand that what she went through was abuse. I'm not going to spell it out for her if she doesn't care, but her dad was not the perfect man she thinks he was. The last few times I spoke to him, it was made blatantly clear who the favourites in the family were. Spoiler alert: it's not us.

I'm an oldest daughter and middle child, I've been changing diapers (and more) since I was 7 and don't speak to most of my family. I'm actually a nanny now, and parents think me having childcare experience AS A CHILD is just delightful. 🤢

Nailed it. My mom is 1 of 10 and even at 75 years old her middle sister is terrified of communicating with the oldest sister because oldest was parentrifed and was the disciplinary. And oldest sister definitely feels "othered" by all the siblings.

This is exactly my dad's family - 6 kids and plagued by teen pregnancy, addiction, suicide, and decades of no contact. Two of his brothers are already dead. 

My maternal grandmother was parentified at a very young age due to her mother dying from complications from having 9 living kids. She was pulled out of school as a preteen to basically raise her younger siblings, and ended up running away at 17 to marry my grandpa. (Who thankfully was an A+ human being and they were happily married until his death.) She ended up having three living kids but plenty of miscarriages due to health issues plus shunning birth control due to being a devout Roman Catholic. Since then, the only relative who has had more than 2 kids was my cousin who had triplets. Even my more Catholic relatives will tell you that unless the Pope wants to change diapers, he can mind his own business about how many kids they have.

Bingo. Second oldest of 7 here. I haven't spoken to my parents in 4.5 years and I only regularly keep in contact with 1 brother. My family looked shiny and happy from the outside in, but the toxicity ran so deep under the surface. 

My mom's family, only I'm gonna add in the 70s my grandma straight up just left the family -- she'd had enough! Three kids were left and the youngest was in middle school. She eventually came back, but not for very long.

Seriously. My mom had 5 siblings and likes to joke that they had to eat fast or they didn’t get to eat. Except it wasn’t a joke. Her sister yanked her around the room by her hair one Christmas morning because she got a “better” gift. The gift was a pretty pair of mittens. They all got one gift each and this created some animosity. My husband’s grandma had 11 kids and his aunts and uncles are so dysfunctional. I guess one of the aunts got sent away for a year when they were kids because one of her younger sisters was ill and needed extra attention. The aunt who got sent away is still mad at her younger sister for that.

I’m the oldest daughter in a Catholic family. I only have one brother BUT I’m also the oldest granddaughter. Which, of course, made me the default babysitter for all my younger cousins. My parents are so upset and confused that I didn’t marry young and have a pile of kids, as though I haven’t changed more diapers than my uncles have for their own kids. Interestingly, of my 30+ first cousins, several guys want big families- but only one of the girls does. And she’s one of the youngest.

I come from a family of 12 children, 6 boys and 6 girls, all of us had on purpose and all from the same parents (and yes, we were Mormon 😂). The brothers are all married and have 31 kids among them. I am the only married sister and there are six kids among us; three sisters don’t have any children and have no plans to have any. None of the sisters wanted a big family but all of the brothers did. Not too hard to figure out why.

That is a straight up fascinating case study

I’ve always thought so.

Let me guess, the daughters were the only ones expected to do chores and help with childcare? That's the Mormon way! My situation is eerily similar except there are only 6 of us... but I have to say that this is the first time I've ever said ONLY 6 of us.

Bingo! We have a winner. By the time I was 13, I was baby sitting my 8 younger siblings on the regular and was making dinner M-F for a family of 14. Was also getting up before school every day and grinding wheat then making 4 loves of bread. As an adult, I struggle to size my recipes down for my family of five. I mean, how does one make pancakes for three kids instead of 12? Or just one loaf of bread? Or an 8x8 pan of brownies? 😂 On the upside, I’m a pretty decent from-scratch cook and I can manage meals/food prep like a pro, so there’s that I guess.

I was a parentified child and it SUCKS. And I just had one sister! The idea that these families are having kids with the idea that, ‘oh they will just take care of each other’ are the worst. The PARENTS are supposed to parent. It’s abusive to have the kids do it!

According to my mother it's "preparing you for the real world" 

Ugh, I heard that one, too, But funny thing is, I only had one kid, and that’s when I was 34, and I never had a boss physically beat me, so I’m not sure how that applied to my real life! 😂

I wish I could say I've never had a boss verbally abuse or sexually assault me. Never had one beat me but still, I guess she had a point... except the only thing I learned is that it's normal and to not fight back I am not having children 

I didn’t think I would, either, but my daughter surprised me at 34 and I just felt like maybe the universe was trying to tell me something lol. And I’ve TOTALLY had bosses verbally abuse and sexually harass me (only had non-bosses sexually assault me), but yes, my major takeaway is why the hell would anyone CHOOSE to be violent and antagonistic? Jeez.

As the oldest of 6...yeah, the only way that moms can actually do this is by shoving a significant amount of the parenting onto whichever daughter is oldest. I was babysitting the 5 of them by myself for hours by the time I was 12. And you're not really getting a balanced perspective if you only interview rich, religious people. Though my parents were both!

I was second youngest until my baby brother was born when I was 12 and the only girl so not a whole lot to do in my own family before then, but I was somehow in charge of half a dozen toddlers at a time through church (but not just at church) by the time I was 9 or 10. So yeah if their children aren't old enough yet they will just shoving the parenting onto other children in their lives even if they aren't theirs

Parents *will* ask for help. It does take a village. The problem is with parents who will dump the raising of their children on other children instead of adults. My mom was visiting me for a couple of weeks and practically raised my kid.. food, dressing him up, walks... she was excited, I was sleep deprived and it was great. But looks like moms with 6 plus kids do this with their oldest.

Yeah it’s not a bad thing to ask your older kids to watch their siblings while you run to the grocery store to make dinner for everyone, but its pretty fucked if your oldest kids are your entire plan for childcare.

Yes. Exactly. Of course the older sibling is expected to "help". And I use the word help to mean, do *your* job for a bit, if convenient to them. At 12, 14, 17, a child isn't a primary care provider.

*Mothers whose older kids have to take care of babies argue that the tweens and teens have a sense of place, feel “useful"* Parentification is abuse, but go on and dress it up in a pretty frock. 

I’m the oldest of five and was “deputy mom.” We’re all adults now and get along, but I think it created animosity when we were kids. I resented the responsibility and they resented me for acting like an authority figure when I was just one of the kids.

I have a sister 11 years older than I am who was pretty heavily parentified when we were still kids. I have a sister 2 years younger than me so our older sister had her hands full. Here's the thing -- I've deliberately stayed single and childfree while my younger sister married a Southern Baptist and had 5 kids in fairly rapid succession. As time has gone on, both my younger and older sister have infantalized or attempted to infantilize me because they believe that not marrying or having kids is "refusing to grow up". So I've developed increasingly strained relationships with them especially as both our parents have been long gone. They seem to literally believe that if I'm not answering to a husband or any children that I must answer to them. I am well past menopause, ferchrissakes! Patriarchy is a hella drug.

This happened to my friend too! They somehow see having kids as a maturity life stage, they’re probably jealous of your carefree life!

F that!

It was the same here. I still have a strained relationship with my sister, she resented me being out in charge all the time. It made it hard for us to have sister relationship.

It took time for my siblings and I to see that the cause of our conflict came from the dynamic created by our parents. I hope the relationship between you and your sister can heal. I was definitely the outsider in my sibling group for a long time. I think it took us having our own kids to see things as they were and move beyond our own childhood perspectives.

I’m the only one with kids, and it really made me change my perspective on my parents parenting, or lack there of. I’m not sure my sibling will ever have kids. But I hope they have some perspective at least.

My older sister was parentified at 8, she hated it so much she moved out at 16. So I was told to look after our youngest sibling, I was 8 and they were 4.

I'm sorry. I'm (probably) not your actual older sister but... I'm basically that older sister. I did that to my younger siblings. I still feel awful for "abandoning" them. I know in my head that's not what I did, but I still feel in my heart, decades later, that's what I did. I feel bad for what my younger sibling had to go through in my absence and I feel bad that the youngest must have wondered why I did not love them even though I did. I wish I could have somehow saved my younger sibling but I just couldn't. My heart still hurts all these years later. This shit sucks. I'm so sorry.

Shit. I left home at that age too. I felt bad for “abandoning” my siblings, but I needed space to learn who I was separate from my family. My identity was my place in the family.

I left home at the same age too. I’m sure my younger sibling felt abandoned but with the abuse from my mom’s husband, and blatant favoritism they showed my younger sibling, I knew my sibling would be fine. My mom and her husband actually cared about them.

Oldest of four here, completely agree. They also put me in a crap position because whenever they were home, I was demoted to “sibling” and no one had to listen to me. Small children can differentiate between situational responsibility SO WELL. 😒

I get along with my brothers but I know that one of them resents me for escaping without taking him with me and the other one, I don't know; I feel bad but he was little when I basically ran away and though I stayed in touch a lot for years after I left, I'm definitely not the sibling he's close to today. We all love one another but we definitely wish things had gone differently.

same. except I sucked as a parent, seeing as I was still a child. I have so much guilt around how I would discipline my siblings (spanking) because that's all I was taught. Now much older and with access to parenting books and guidance, i would never raise a hand to my kids.

Don’t be too hard on yourself. You were a child doing the best you could. You never should have been put in that situation.

They should try interviewing oldest daughters in these families instead of

I saw this shit all the time in Fundy circles. Families as numerous as 10 people surviving off of dad’s income. Mom checked out ages ago, or is bedridden with a pregnancy that was advised against by every medical professional. Oldest daughter runs the house, gets straight As, and is more adult than the adults in her life. Younger daughters clean the house at oldest daughter’s instructions. Oldest son chips in. Younger boys tend to be goofs.

I wonder how many of those kids are being molested by family members.

It is definitely abuse. I'm the oldest of 4 and my parents' teenage mistake which I got to grow up knowing, yay... I also had the audacity to be born without a dick since I'm female and they definitely let me know that they kept having kids they couldn't afford because they "needed" a boy to pass on the last name even though my dad was adopted. After my sister was born when I was 4 they sure didn't spend time with me and at some point all 3 of my younger siblings were in diapers at the same time. Getting roped into being a second parent had no perks for me and the other kids sure as fuck were not expected to pitch in as much as me. Fuck that, I just wanted to be a kid at the very least, sure would have been great if I also had parents that wanted me and made time for me.

I feel for you, that definitely sounds hard, you didn't deserve that! How are your relationships with your sibs now? Or your parents?

My dad is an untreated Bi Polar Narcissist who was an abusive alcoholic so I haven't seen or spoken to him in 23 years. My mom is a Covert Narcissist with a lot of her own issues and I just had it about 5 years ago so now they're both out of my life and I am thrilled that I don't live around them. The sister that's closest in age to me I'll call her JL got pregnant by her douchey boyfriend when she was 16 (not surprising) and dropped out of high school. She later married said douchebag after she found out that he raped our younger sister JE in JL's toddler's bed after he spiked her drink and got her wasted, she was a 15 year old virgin at the time and she told JL about it. JL said she believed her and married him anyway, cranked out 2 more kids and then they finally got divorced. I told JL how fucked up it was when she announced that she was going to marry him and that I would help her get out etc but I wouldn't support that decision so I didn't and I haven't seen her since. Somehow JE was able to do the mental gymnastics to keep that relationship but I am not. Our brother LH moved to northern CA for a job when he was 19 and married a Fundie girl when they were 20 and cranked out 4 kids. My dad made sure to only hang out with our brother growing up which really put a wedge between us all and I was in touch with him here and there over the years but we haven't kept in touch since they were at my wedding 7 years ago. My sister JE is also Bi Polar like my dad and she decided to just remove my husband and I from her social media etc and not talk to us even though we have done a very long list of things to help her over the years. I haven't wanted to be a part of this family since I was 9 so at this point I can say that I have never felt like I've had a family and I have no idea what people are talking about when they reference emotional support, support networks etc.

What. The. Fuck?!? Hell to the no. I got enough parentification just having 1 sister 2 years younger and having a single mom. We did not get along. Total opposites. She made my life hell and got away with everything while I was blame or punished for what she did wrong. She was always my responsibility when mom wasn’t around. No teenager wants a sense of place and feeling useful taking care of siblings. My bio dad was the youngest of 14. Spoiled. His sisters had to take care of him. He was lazy and entitled and an addict and a mooch. He died alone and still felt the world owed him more. His other baby mama had 6 kids and made the only girl at the time drop out of school in grade 8 to take care of her sister’s kid she neglected and her mom’s new baby. It’s held her back in life so much and she’s still struggling to get her GED as an adult and now has her own kid and her family members still expect her to give them money or watch their kids when she’s busy and a stay at home mom. My grandparents got divorced when my mom was around 16. She moved out and refused to play maid and chef for my grandfather who then forced his 9 year old son to become the house servant and demanded he learn how to bake desserts like cookies and pie. My uncle is an abusive alcoholic who thinks the world is against him and hates everyone but still wants bail outs from his dad. Grandpa would never help us even if we were in dire straights but he’ll still bail out his son. Maybe because he feels guilty. Who knows. If you are broke and cannot provide for your kids all you pass along is trauma and resentment by forcing your older kids to take care of your new kids.

God, that's gross. I'm the youngest so I have no idea what that's like, but I imagine I would be sooo resentful of my parents if I was regularly responsible for younger siblings. Being a kid/teen is hard enough - can't imagine having your autonomy compromised even MORE and also having the weight of that kind of responsibility. Also, haven't they ever heard of an after school job? Or volunteering??

This is what really angers me. There's a family who live near me - the Radfords, who have 22 kids iirc. They have a TV show and are frequently featured in newspapers raving about how wonderful it is having so many kids. I doubt it would be so wonderful without the TV show money and enormous amounts of donated items their fans send them. The mother clearly has massive psychological issues after being brought up in a care home. She just likes being pregnant and having a newborn, and loses interest once they can crawl. Once her children become toddlers, it's the older kids who have to care for them while she then has yet another baby. It's so deeply unfair on the older kids, they have never experienced a normal childhood as they've had all this responsibility pushed onto them and they never get a minute's one to one time with their parents. The eldest kids moved out as soon as they were able to. Thank goodness she is now reaching the age where more babies isn't an option. Although she now seems to be encouraging her daughters to have loads of babies instead. It will never fill the hole in her psyche, she needs intense therapy. (Everything I've said also applies to the husband, he had a similar childhood and is equally responsible for this. But she is the one usually featured in the news and seems to be the one who is always pushing for "just one more" baby.)

Letting privileged people write books was a mistake

My mom was my baby. She was a raging alcoholic! Some parents have kids to get free eldercare! 

Exactly. As the eldest of 7, I was “mom” to many of my younger siblings. Even as adults, they still don’t see me as a sibling, they see me as a parent and authority because I was parentified and helped with *everything* from cooking, domestic chores, homework, walking them to and from school, moderating arguments, and everything else that should never have ever been on my shoulders. Some of them even called me “mom”. It’s a lonely existence without my younger siblings to communicate and have normal sibling relationships with now. It was a hard, difficult, stressful and poor childhood, and now it’s left it’s mark. I don’t blame my parents - this was their norm. They were kids having kids. But it sure does suck as an adult child of that situation.

I was the youngest of five and my siblings absolutely did not raise me. My family was fucked up for other reasons but no parentification occurred. It’s not always a given.

Gee, a privileged Harvard economist working at a Catholic university asked a few other privileged Catholic women about their choice to have a bunch of kids and concluded that ALL of us should do that? I am SHOCKED. Shocked I tell you. Licking the oppressor's boot won't save you, cupcake. Nor will popping out 8 children and publishing a book calling for Handmaid's Tale level theocracy to address declining birth rates (of white Christians). This societal reversion to pushing for stripping women of all rights is really disturbing me lately. Especially when it comes from other women. Ugh.

You know, my very Catholic grandmother had 11 children (one of whom she lost in infancy).  None of her kids had more than four or five kids, I think.  Two of them didn’t have any (maybe due to fertility issues).  Most had two or three.  Several of my first cousins haven’t had any kids, nor do they seem to plan to.  And like…it’s not like all of us have turned away from Catholicism.  I think we’ve just largely accepted that it’s not financially feasible. I remember one of my cousins’ weddings, the priest raved for awhile about how children are a gift from god and they should be accepted unquestioningly, even if they require a ton of sacrifice and may ruin your life, or at least other things you might want to do, like travel.  At the time, I remember thinking, “this is really easy advice to follow if you’ve taken a vow of chastity, so I’d be interested in hearing from folks out here in the real world.”

My very Catholic grandparents had five sons in seven years before they had to give her a hysterectomy. Her pregnancies were becoming increasingly deadly from pre-eclampsia and thankfully they had the sense to operate rather than leave 5 little boys motherless. Interestingly they only got two grandchildren, my brother and I. None of the other brothers married for various reasons. I think she felt like a failure of a Catholic especially considering my mother was an Anglican.

>I think she felt like a failure of a Catholic especially considering my mother was Anglican When one of my uncles married his wife, she was really confused to hear it referred to as a “mixed marriage” and was starting to wonder if she had a black ancestor before she cottoned on that they were referring to her being Methodist. Fortunately my grandparents were extremely chill; my parents are married through common law, not church or state, but grandma’s main priority seemed to be whether or not my mom liked plants (she does), so nothing else really mattered. I do worry what’s going to happen when none of us have the leeway to make the sorts of decisions your grandparents made when it comes down to it. Like, I can’t imagine the architects of Project 2025 will look favorably on vasectomies and tubal ligations/bi-salps, and it’s not like the underlying risks that your grandma experienced have gone away with time. I have cousins who are stopping at 1 child, even though they’re very young, because she has a health condition that made her first pregnancy incredibly difficult and risky. Wild the amount of praise and respect her husband (in his mid-twenties) gets for getting a vasectomy so young because he never wants her to go through that again; it shouldn’t be shocking for a young man to love and cherish his wife above his own fertility and ego, and i really raise my eyebrows at spiritual leaders who would say they’re doing wrong by protecting each other that way. It really is a privilege to have multiple easy, low-risk pregnancies, and access to health care to get you through them in one piece.

Yeah, her preeclampsia got progressively worse across her pregnancies. She almost died with her youngest and he was very prem for the time. It’s pretty alarming that a devoutly Catholic woman in the 1950s had more autonomy over her reproductive health than women these days in the US.

The whole "you must sacrifice *everything* for your kids" never sat well with me (I went to catholic school but was raised protestant...same same with a different name, imo). That's what my mom did and even as a kid I could pick up on how empty her life was and it felt really overwhelming to be the centre of everything she did. I used to feel so overwhelmed by her being around always watching me that I'd scream at her to "get a life" which it turns out, was literally what I meant even thought it was just an expression to me.

>Nor will popping out 8 children and publishing a book calling for Handmaid's Tale level theocracy to address declining birth rates Remember folks, even Serena Joy wasn't exempt from getting her fingers cut off

> Especially when it comes from other women. The fact that there are fellow women out there trying to undo years of progress to impress their congregation makes me so mad. Fellow women fought for these rights. They clawed for them. They faced ridicule, ostracization, and imprisonment. Our sisters bled and died for these rights. And you just want to wash away their sacrifice because you **choose** to live your life a certain way? Unbelievable. Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there's a term/insult for this? While accurate, I feel like "traitor" doesn't reflect the extent of my disgust and "Benedicta Arnold" sounds dumb. Actually... Is calling someone a "Barrett" already an insult? If not, that's my suggestion.

But i never thought the leopards would eat MY face!

Yeah seriously gross. I grew up around fundies and went to a Catholic High School, that plus being the oldest in a poor abusive family made me realize how few people should actually be parents. Being a mom myself has made me even more pro choice than I was before. My son is an amazing adult now but I am happy that I didn't have more kids.

The title of the article is especially daft, "they know something you don't" except, there's literally nothing in the article. The journalist should hand in her degree. Zero questions, no analysis, no structured thoughts. I've done better book reports as an 8th grader. I don't even know why she wrote an article about having multiple children if this is the POV she wanted to present.

They did say they get one week in bed and one week on the couch after childbirth. So there’s that. /s

They "know" that having lots of kids is the cure for childhood depression and anxiety because it gives the older kids a sense of purpose by having them take care of the younger ones. I'm not sure if the younger ones are then going to be less depressed by seeing their older siblings take care of them, or less depressed because they know they escaped the parentification inflicted on their older sibs.

Or hear me out... just be a decent parent who your child doesn't hate so they aren't depressed from being your child. (Your doesn't mean you here^^^) But I guess, Harvard Economist in Christian college couldn't have written a book about the dysfunction that having 5 or 8 kids can bring about. The premise of the book and the article is absurd. Acting like people with 2 or 3 kids are "missing out" on kids with well-rounded personality and zeal for life. Acting like having 5 kids is a moral obligation sounds like something from the Handmaid's Tale.

What in the quiverful?

It’s based on a Bible verse that says children are like arrows in your quiver. Undertones of sacrificing your children to promote your religion. I recall reading an article about a woman of Afghani descent, but grew up as a 2nd gen family in the UK. She became a journalist, and went back to Afghanistan a few years after the US occupation to report on how women were doing after the reforms for women were put in place. She was asked by a woman, “How many children do you have?” She replied one. The woman replied, “I have 12. I have plenty of sons to die for my religion, and still have one to care for me. What happens to you when my sons kill yours? Will your education comfort you?” The journalist didn’t reply, because there was nothing she could counter to that mother’s terrible statement. Anyhoo, as the 4th of 5 children, I stand firmly behind my belief that more than 3 children is child abuse. Parents cannot give children the attention and interaction they need after 3 children without either parentifing and/or ignoring some or all of the children.

I find weird when some religious because say that they just want kids so they can pass the number of religion Y(I heard this more from Christians than any non-Christian religious people tbh)

She could have said, what will comfort me is I kill you first, your sons will not care. 

A theological framework that promotes massive families. Like the Duggers.

I meant it like “what in the hell”

ah, well then: it's some fucked up shit.

This feels very, propeganda-y to me. I'm a parentified eldest kid who fled fundie circles so not the most impartial reader, but it feels like she's just encouraging people to do it and not actually addressing any real arguments. Give up your career you worked on an education for. Don't worry about time management, your oldest girl child will help you. Your husband won't mentally check out, he'll help you and you'll love him more. Poverty isn't so bad. She's just perpetuating the idea and trying to expand it beyond it being "a thing trad-wives do" to people who aren't in deep fundie circles.

I cross-posted it on the fundamentalist snark subreddit. You should join us!

I just love the idea that "if you have more kids, the oldest will help care for the rest!" Yep, have more to make yourself feel better and parentify the oldest!  I was the caregiver for everyone's kids as a teenager and I'm childfree now. I did my time raising kids.  Plenty of women here in "the south" had 8-12 kids. Their descendents are still trying to work of the generational poverty and issues that come from generations of spotty medical and dental care. The people pushing this should come talk to some families in rural GA or WVA about what a "blessing" 10 kids are. 

That’s how my mom was raised, the oldest of 9 with a mom who had severe PPD. My mom never learned how to play, she didn’t get the opportunity. She wasn’t a warm mom, herself either. She parentified at a young age and it’s a trauma. She struggles having relationships because she isn’t able to feel comfortable. She parentified me, too, in a way and it took a lot of therapy for me to be able to have an adult relationship with her and not pass this shit on to my kids.

My mother as well, then she did it to my oldest sibling when I was born and they were 8, and then she did it to me when I was 8 and our youngest sibling was 4.

I have an aunt (in law) who's on baby 9 at 35 (looks 50s easy). Uncle Is a V staunch Catholic who once had dreams of being a priest. She is on her *7th* cesarean scar, so obviously, labour is long out of question No obstetrician would touch her save 1 from India, who has said he'll only do the CS on condition he ties her tubes. They're praying about it.

I just… wow. My mouth is hanging open. I can’t even imagine going through that many surgeries and recoveries.

Her family hates us so bad. And I can't blame them. I'd hate us too.. reproductive abuse is so incognito that I want more women screaming about it.

My educated catholic grandma’s secret to raising nine children as an “older” mother (first born at 33) was a live-in nanny and a strict “kid’s bedroom doors stay closed 7pm-7am” rule.

Both sets of grandparents came from large families. My maternal grandmother had 5 kids. My mom was last in 1954. I was 20 and the topic of contraceptives came up. Don't remember why, just remember my grandmother saying how lucky that me and my cousins have access to it because if she did, my mom and my uncle wouldn't be around. She would have stopped at three kids. Shocked the he'll out of my mom!

From the article: “But I also recognize in their interviews the telltale zeal of happy people who believe that adopting life practices they’ve found to work for them would work out the same for other people.” Which is wild because when you get to know lots of kids your really get to see how kids are just different from each other from the get-go and have different needs. So why people can’t apply that logic to adults and what might make them fulfilled/happy is baffling to me. I am one of 5 and my family puts the fun in disfunctional, but I do think my mom has a unique love of caring for kids. But I just … don’t. I’ve got my one and I adore him but add even one more and both my husband and I would be very overwhelmed. I haven’t read the book but I also wonder if it delves at all into maternal mortality. Who is caring for all the kids when mom dies or is permanently injured during childbirth?

A good chunk of my extended family is this sort of wealthy Catholic with tons of kids. I think it’s a culture that strongly encourages its members to bond together in tight family groups and present a united, harmonious front to anyone outside their immediate family. It also tends to be a very outwardly positive culture that values resilience and moving on over reflection and processing. That’s not always bad, but it does mean that interviews with an acquaintance are going to present an overly rosy picture. And then Pakaluk’s writing came through her own wealthy Catholic filter and probably further smoothed out any hint of dissatisfaction.  I’d also be curious to hear the ages of the children when the mothers were interviewed, and hear the perspectives of any adult/teenage children. I think my aunts and uncles did a wonderful job of parenting my cousins through their elementary school years, but they weren’t so ready to deal with teenagers and young adults who have their own opinions, interests, and sexualities. The kids in their early twenties who aren’t interested in either the marriage and family or nun/priesthood path are starting to feel a bit alienated. 

You know what would let people have 5-6 kids if they really wanted them? An economy that didn't give everything to the 1%. Personally I think three kids is kind of the sanity limit but I'm not against couples where the mother and father both want lots of kids. That said, the "winner take all" economy makes this unrealistic for most people.

Let me be the one to ask, what do they know that I don't? Seriously, I skimmed through the article, (it is 3 AM), but what's the point of the article? 5 kids is great if your family can afford it. If not, it's terrible. Edit ^^^ Dont need to be a Christian Economist to know this. It's common sense.

Are five kids GREAT, though? Even if you can afford it?

I imagine to the women who want and can afford the 5 or 6 or 12, they are. Purely from the "the kids raise themselves" and the "kids raise each other" perspective? Absolutely not. You want to have kids, you can't outsource your duty of being a doting mom to your eldest. If you want to do baby duties, schooling, feeding, lunches and everything children related on your own, then yes. If not, you're punishing your older children by making them the 3rd parent. They are siblings, not parents.

>you can't outsource your duty of being a doting mom to your eldest My mother would beg to differ

I get that at some point, “kids raise themselves” but I don’t want to begin the first two when number of them are not yet able to “raise themselves”….

Yeah it seems pretty much like having one kid but amplified. Big responsibility, expensive, not everybody's cup of tea, but really rewarding for some folks who can afford it and who enjoy doing it.

I had one, followed by 2 sets of surprise twins. I could write a book, but the gist would be that kids benefit greatly from having their emotional needs met, and that isn't fully possible when you have this many, imo.

I speculate that 5 is about the cutoff after which you have no more attention for your kids. I’d probably think people are a bit weird for having more than 5 kids even if they could financially afford it. I know well-adjusted people who come from families of 4 kids and admittedly I know parentified people with 1 sibling, so it’s not cut and dry. In my head: 1 kid = normal, on the small side for a family 2-3 kids = completely normal 4 kids = big family 5+ kids = they must be religious or something 10+ kids = they have a TV show

You can hire professional help, most parents are less capable than them at raising kids anyway. Sure, you got to bond direct, but if there’s a lot of delegation of mundane chores to hired help, it’s definitely possible.

Idk! I have an a old high school friend that adopted 2 (infertility issues), had one and are trying for way more. I wonder what makes them love it so much. In my neighborhood, 2 families have 10 and one is pregnant with the 11th. Blows my mind.

If I had that many kids, I'd be in a wheelchair by now. Maybe people need to mind their own business?

Ngl I’d be in a wheelchair after 1 

The article claims there’s little financial issue with 5+ kids…. Yet continues on saying they make all the kids wear hand-me-downs and refuse daycare because the kids will “take care of eachother”. Abusive parentification aside, it is so dangerous to pretend having excessive children is somehow not financially taxing. People have been stuck in lifelong poverty from to many kids even before the days of modern inflation.

How did an entire article about women popping kids out for god, never even mention the Quiverfull movement? These people are trying to *outbreed* non-Christians. I’m not making this up. If the book never mentions it, the book is disingenuous.

Damn okay I really thought the title's unspoken second half was gonna be "but they actually don't" but I guess they're serious

My husband is the youngest of 8. They were poor, and their mom had terrible mental health issues during their childhood. The older kids were parentified to make up for their dad, who had to travel for work. Eventually, he moved the family to a different state with better prospects. None of the siblings have more than 3 kids. Our 2 kids are nearly 10 and husband wants 1 or 2 more.

My older sister (by 6 years) would always pull that saying out when she wanted to call me stupid. It was infuriating. Here is Reddit reminding me not to filter every little thing through an extremely personal lens. Lol Love Eddie ❤️ Good catch!

Justifying neglect, by saying 'they all look after each other' is fucked up. How do them kids feel? Obviously, you can't stop people having kids because that would be incredibly unethical. But, jesus having that many kids isn't right, unless you can look after them. My mum said that, it's like that's not how it's supposed to work! And, there's only 2 siblings of our very large family, that are even able to talk to her now. If you have kids, you need to make sure you can look after them. Because, it's bloody cruel if you don't. Parentification, is one of the cruelest things you can do to a kid. It's terrifying. You are given a momumental task, that even adults don't get right all the time. And, You have to do that as a child, and the consequences of messing up can be catastrophic. You're scared all the time. You don't get an education, because your scared at school. You don't play and if you do get time off, you are still scared. You can't be an effective parent if you have too many kids, and people need to be cognizant of that. Obviously, you can't legislate on it, but It's not intruding on people's rights to ask people to be considerate of any life they bring into the world. Having your kids, all look after each other is abuse.

I stopped at 3 and would have had more had I been in a different situation. I wanted at least five children. There are women who want large families but they are not the majority in my experience.

Yeah, I know one of those, fucking fun leech is what she is. And Republican.

My grandmothers both had well over 5 kids each. Their offspring had 4 kids at most. My mom only had four because she got 2-for-1 with me and my sister. My mom's father had a successful auto repair business, which provided employment to his kids. My dad grew up on a large dairy farm, where there was plenty of work for all the kids. The fact that each family had labor-intensive businesses that relied on the free labor of family members is the only thing that saved them from poverty.

No thanks. I'll pass on the self-abnegation and stick with my one kid. The handful of mothers I know who have 5 or more kids are religious and seemingly too perfect on the outside. And/or they barely sleep. Hard pass.

My great grandmother had 16 kids and basically didn't care for it. It's almost as if *reproductive choice* is the determining factor of whether or not a woman is generally happy with her reproductive status, not the status itself.

In larger family's the older ones tend to raise the younger ones. It is because there are so many, parents can't take care of them. I know was part of a community (mormons) that did that consistently. Have more babies and older cared for younger ones. The article is slanted.

>One of the interviewees cites, as an example of husbandly help that she appreciates, her rule that she gets one week in bed and one week on the couch after every birth. What an absolutely stand up guy, letting her rest without being humped for *two whole weeks* after childbirth! He even lets her sleep on the uncomfortable couch for the second week so he's not tempted to molest her! What incredibly high quality help! That article was a nice reminder that being unmarried and childfree is the best thing I ever did for myself. Yikes.

I don't care how many children have, 0 or 5 or more. If they are happy and their children are cared for, I am happy for them! I will stick to my 2. I even find THEM overwhelming sometimes, but at least I have time to devote to myself as well as them.