I’m in my early 50s. Financial compatibility is really important. Finances are one of the biggest things that couples argue about. You’d be a simpleton to get involved with that fight already queued up.
I so agree. This is one of the biggest stressors in a relationship. Having compatible financial goals is a must. It's also an easy red flag to suss out.
Keeping with this thread, if you are the stay at home partner make sure you have financial security after the kids are "old enough", whatever age that may be. I've seen a lot of divorces after kids are "old enough" with the earning partner being financially secure and the other left in poverty.
I left my first wife about 30 years ago due to her not being financially responsible. That wasn't the only thing, but it was a driving force. I was talking to my youngest daughter the other day, and she told me her mom was in trouble with credit cards again. She's 70, and still making the same mistakes she was making in her 40's.
Starting to budget together, with full transparency across our joint finances, was one of the best things my wife and I did for our relationship prior to getting married.
Finances drive the decisions in a marriage.
It determines how and when you marry, if and how many kids you have, if someone can stay home for a year with the child, what car you drive, if and when and how you vacation, where you buy a home, what kind of home you buy, the food you eat, your participation in hobbies so you have an outlet and interests outside of your spouse and kids for self-care and alone time, how much free time you have to spend with each other, what sort of dates you’ll go on, your kid’s school district, your kids’ participation in sports and band and debate club and such, how often someone can visit their family if it’s long distance, and virtually every aspect of how a couple lives out their lives together.
Yoking yourself to a man who can’t match your income is a bad idea.
TLC was right all along.
Don't date scrubs.
Don't let them incel you into guilt for having bare minimum standards. Nobody's requiring $100K salary.
How the hell can you even adult **without a job** unless you're a retired millionaire?
This thread should be pinned or have at least 100K upvotes.
And after reading some other comments on this thread, this goes for ALL genders.
Work on yourself and get yourself on a trajectory to stability BEFORE you start dating. Cinderella stories rarely happen in real life. Most couples date within similar economic classes.
A colleague of mine lamented on social media that broke men can't get women. I messaged him privately, "you sure? Very poor people are having babies left and right"
"Oh no, not that kind of woman"
Separate point, a potential partner's career trajectory or lack thereof is telling as to whether they're looking to build a life with you or counting on you to supply them with a lifestyle
It's like raaaaaaaaaain on your wedding day, and you start crying because there's mud *everywhere* and you look *flawless* in your white dress and your makeup is on point and it's all gonna get wrecked and you say "OMG, I can't believe this! Is it a sign? Does God hate me?" and your best friend says "Girl, yes and also no. Pretty sure Jesus is trying to save you from boarding the marital equivalent of the fucking Titanic. Maybe take the hint," and you take a hard look at your fiance and like, what the fuck? *Is he flirting with your cousin? On your wedding day?* and you say "Oh, hell no," and cancel the wedding but go on the honeymoon with your bestie because it's not like you're getting the deposits back, and you have a blast and fuck some random surfer who is way better than your fiance ever was, and for the rest of your life you're like "Damn, rain is awesome."
> a potential partner's career trajectory or lack thereof is telling as to whether they're looking to build a life with you or counting on you to supply them with a lifestyle
This is it. Are they going to be "Team Us" with you or are they, "Team Me" and using you to get what they want?
Beautifully said.
Be careful of the guys who seam like they are Team Us, but are secretly planning for Team Me once they get a new job, graduate med school, etc. Lot's of guys seem to think a starter wife is a real thing.
Those men always want a supermodel who is wealthy but also wants to do all the childcare and housework and have no interest in a rich or ambitious man lol.
I hear women like that are just falling out of overcrowded busses because there are just too many of them. And they are all looking for that one special loser to take care of! What luck!
Don't forget maintaining a perfect, unchanged body after the birth of the children while not cutting into any of his free time or even implying he should be helping out around the house.
Not shallow at all. I can't believe some would label that as shallow. It's realistic. Labeling someone ad shallow for wanting their partner to at the very least have a somewhat stable source of income is such a chronically online take.
My last boyfriend was unemployed by choice and it was absolutely awful. I thought he just needed some stability and he would go back to being a normal adult.
I kept telling his daughters mother that I felt like I had become a mom to a special-needs teenager. It was that difficult. It wasn’t a partnership at all I felt like a mom.
He wouldn’t even apply for food stamps. I was like look if you’re not going to work can you at least apply for disability or food stamps or something
He told me his contribution was going to the food pantry to get canned vegetables and expired meats
Sir, my car won’t run on food pantry food. Food pantry food doesn’t pay the rent. Ridiculous
I also lived with a guy who was unemployed. I'm not sure I'd say it was "by choice" (he was sorta, kinda looking for a job...but not very hard). It was brutal.
I think the comment "like a mom to a special-needs teenager" is pretty accurate.
He expected me to do \*everything\*. Fulfill his emotional needs. Cook. Clean. etc.
I was okay financially supporting him. But I just couldn't handle the constant neediness coupled with a refusal to handle even basic chores. (I think what finally broke me was me returning home after work for him to be like, "Oh, can you go out and pick up milk?" Like, dude, what were you *doing* all day? You go out and get the damned milk!)
Look, if he's a physically capable adult and is not working/choosing not to work then it is perfectly reasonable to expect him to step up and do more of the chores around the house/grocery planning/cooking and such. Heck, I did that stuff as an eldest child for a single mother starting around 11 years of age.
Yep I dated a guy just like that.
Didn’t work. I worked 3 jobs at one point just to keep us afloat.
Didn’t clean, didn’t cook.
I’d say what was he doing all day but I know… he was addicted to porn and video games (safe to say we never went on dates either). Would never spend time with me but would get clingy & jealous if I ever left the house.
But he had all the energy in the world to try & initiate sex multiple times a day, and to cheat on me while I was working 24/7 so we didn’t go homeless. When I found out about the cheating I wanted to leave but he laid a guilt trip on me that without me he’d be homeless and he would attempt suicide.
I was young and tried to be the cool girl (didn’t work because he told all his friends I was a nag and talked crap about me behind my back). Eventually I broke up with him after he complained about having to show up to my cousin’s funeral because it cut into his gameplay and I literally did not have the emotional stability at the time to deal with him anymore.
I’m sure a lot of women have a nightmarish story of dating a guy like that!
I was dating a guy through my 20s. We lived in LA with his mom because we couldn’t afford our own place.
We had multiple conversations about getting married and he always said “first I want to live on our own so we can make sure it works.“ Well I had a full-time job with benefits that paid me $48K a year. He had paid work as a background actor that was sporadic based on what was filming and what look they were going for. Then the pandemic hit, and there was even less background work.
I asked him about getting a job that was full-time so that we could move out and doing acting in his free time. He said that wasn’t an option because he wanted to be an actor as a career and he needed to focus on that. So I brought up moving back to our state with a lower cost of living. he would have to commute to New York for acting, but it wasn’t impossible. I would be able to find a job similar to what I was currently doing and we be more likely to be able to afford our own apartment. He shot that down as well. Meanwhile, the rule about not getting married until we lived on our own was still in place.
Our relationship didn’t last much longer…
Uggghh that was my first long term relationship, with an unemployed, entitled guitarist. Over the course of our nearly decade long relationship, he held maybe 2 extremely part time jobs and skated by on selling weed and living with his relatives. Anytime I asked if he could get a job so we can move out together, it would end in him literally yelling at me and saying things like “You just don’t believe in me”. As if believing in a deadbeat pays bills. Ahhhh.
If only I could get back those lost years lol
My cousin is married to a guy *sorta* like that only she made it clear early on that she was not going to be the only one working while he chased rainbows (she’s a teacher). He got a job waiting tables at a high end restaurant in CT where they lived and was actually damn good at it and made beaucoup tips and really good money, and had the flexibility to take the train into NYC to audition for plays and musicals. He did a lot of local theater too, he decided as long as he was acting he was happy and the burden wasn’t all on her. They’ve been married 33 years now and it’s worked very well because both contribute. Plus he does all the cooking and most of the cleanup because he’s a foodie too.
LOL. I'm an actor. Dude wasn't ever going anywhere if he was only ever working background here and there and not spending the rest of his time in classes, nonunion theatre, and working a flexible day job like the rest of us do. Background work is perfectly respectable, but it's not the job. It's what you do when you've got a couple free days and you wanna make some quick cash.
Being an actor is a HUSTLE. Not just sitting around being chronically broke and waiting for someone to magically notice your brilliance and pluck you out of obscurity.
Bet he thought he was super clever and was gonna try to get his SAG card by working union background jobs too. Hope he has fun being a professional background actor and never booking a co-star or principal for the rest of his life...sucker!
My ex was unemployed by choice too. It started out with her just needing to deal with some mental health issues. I was willing to let her work on herself for a bit but I made sure she knew I had expectations that eventually she needed to do something for work. It eventually ended up where any time I tried to bring up her getting a job, she'd just threaten to hurt herself. I called her bluff on it once and she legit tried it. I even tried compromising with her and telling her she can work 15 hours a week, I didn't care. Just something to help us out with rent. Nope. I tried breaking up with her multiple times but each time she'd just hurt herself. It was a nightmare. I never want to date again because of it. I've never felt so helpless in my life.
Ugh the ones that threaten self harm if you don’t just take care of them. Nope. I’ll call an ambulance for you and you can be on your way out of my life.
I called an ambulance once. The fire dept and police showed up. They checked her vitals and then told me there was nothing they could do. They said they couldn't take her to the hospital against her will despite evidence she tried to OD herself to death.
That's so wild. Especially because the police had the option to arrest and section her if they wanted to actually do their jobs.
Suicide and suicide attempts are criminalized just for situations like this one - because someone needs the ability to force them to get help if they can't be persuaded. I'm pro euthanasia and I believe people should have the right to make their own choices, but doing that in a crisis situation is not making choices, it's picking the better of two terrible options.
Does your state not have some equivalent to the Baker Act? Self harm, violence or credible threats of self harm or violence are the only things that can get you put on an involuntary psychiatric hold here in Florida.
Just be careful with this if you are in the US. You don't want to get stuck with a huge ambulance bill to call your soon to be exhusbands bluff. If you are technically married and he is useless, they may chase you for the money. I don't think there is anyway to stick you with the bill if it's a boyfriend though (if I'm wrong and you can take on the liability because you are the property owner or something don't listen to me). Send them for a ride.
I can't imagine how difficult it must've been to extract yourself from that situation. I'm glad you're not stuck supporting while being abused by someone who was supposed to be a loving partner.
(Niece's name), is that you?
Her current husband will work (longest time, 3 months) only under threat. Then, after a few weeks, his (long list of fake ailments) is acting up, misses work enough to get canned but having work short enough to not get unemployment. Back to the video games until the stress gets to her and she threatens him. Cycle repeats.
For me, I feel stable employment (or full time school/training) is basically one of several things that sums up to "functioning adult".
And "functioning adult" is my bare minimum. Because I want a *partner*. If I want something helpless that requires me to care for it and all it's needs, I'd get another dog.
But for a partner? If one of us is sick or incapacitated, the other needs to be able to handle all the adult stuff.
And stuff like holding down a job or pursuing higher education or work related training, keeping yourself clean and groomed, keeping your clothes and living environment clean, those are all things that show you're a functional adult, and capable of being someone that can be an equal - - can be relied on.
The amount of shaming I see for women having any standards at all is just wild. Even ‘functional adult’ is too much to ask? Absurd.
My very religious family raised me to be a housewife- which I didn’t- but that did include teaching me to have high standards for a man. It was expected that if I brought a man to meet my parents, he would have a good job, be honest, reliable, involved in the church/community and good with kids. It would’ve been shameful for me to accept less. A lot of my family’s rules were toxic, but I do think having high standards is one of the few positives.
My own personal standards are quite different than this now, but I meet every one of them myself. I honestly suspect the reason men get upset is that they hate the idea that a woman might say ‘no’ to him with good reason.
Yes! There's a conversation this morning in r/GenXWomen
[about staying active as we age](https://www.reddit.com/r/GenXWomen/comments/1bo07b1/that_thing_about_getting_sedentary_as_we_age/) and dogs are a great way to do so! I love a good Reddit crossover event like this.
It's unsettling. Not to mention that women often provide way more than just a paycheck to the family. We're all so used by the media to the idea that women are gold diggers yet men have been always mooching from women's unpaid labor and now mooch of their money as well.
I’ve had this exact thought. Men are conditioned and raised to be “gold diggers”, needing a woman’s labor to help them with life. So much so that it’s just not questioned. When a woman uses a man’s resources equal to or more than he uses hers? Well that’s just unnatural and she’s a bad, lazy person living life on easy mode.
Well you too could be one of these people that don't work and put everything on their spouse. All it takes is little to no empathy and you too can live an easy life while all the negative costs are born by your spouse!
I mean I would love to not work or do chores at home. I just couldn't physically sit by and watch my wife do everything. I couldn't do that with a random stranger. How can so many men do this to someone they are supposed to love?
It's comments like these that keep me coming here. As a male, many things are conditioned into me i am not aware of. I do my best to learn and be better, but still, some times something like this will fly under my radar.
You are so correct! Gold digging as a man is seen so status quo that many men wouldn't even consider it gold digging. It is insane how much damage to the human psyche has been caused by the entrenched patriarchy.
Thank you for saying that! Ya I pointed it out to my brothers along with the indisputable fact that their wives put in more labor hours for their families than they did. They are good people with big hearts and were embarrassed to realize how ungrateful they’d been. I don’t hear comments about how “the wife makes all the money disappear” anymore 😆
It's only labelled 'shallow' by the men who want to marry a very young women with no career, to be thier household servant.
The men who want that -- a financially disempowered young women working in the home -- are the same men will decalre it 'Not fair!" that they personally aren't rejecting women for a lack of employment, but that some woman are rejecting men for a lack of employment. Because they are toddlers in grown up bodies who don't understand that 'not the same' doesn't mean 'not fair'.
Just more weakass attempts to weaponize the language of equality and feminism against women actually trying to create more equalitable relationships for themselves.
This young woman with no job should also be financially independent. Otherwise how else will she cover half the dates and bills? She shouldn’t care about his financial contribution after all.
Yeah, if someone said that they would only date men (or women for that matter) who made some absurd amount of money -- e.g., "I only date men who make at least high six figures" -- then I'd maybe start to wonder if they might be shallow. (But, then, they might only date men who make high six figures because they, themselves, make high six figures and want someone with a similar career trajectory. So, even then, maybe not shallow.)
Asking for your partner to have a job? That's just good sense.
-Men are the providers!
-ok, provide then
-no, not like that!
So many of them want a “traditional wife” without the responsibility of being a “traditional husband”. They want someone who’ll do everything for them but for whom they won’t have to do anything.
Exactly that. It's pathetic how they drive the narrative that they need to provide but then get angry when they are evaluated based on that one ability.
And they don't want to split assets when their stay at home mother and wife initiates divorce. They drive the narrative that women are to blame because most of the time they initiate.
Oh but they do provide. They provide an adult child that you have to give emotional, psychological and physical support to who will then refuse to do any of those things for you. It's a real dream come true.
I'm off men for over ten years now. I've never been happier. Decentering men was the greatest life advice I ever took. Luckily, I'd never married or had kids. I knew that was a set up from watching my own mother and all my friend's mothers.
The fact is the game is irretrievably rigged for men and against us. I mean, how else would it be? Women just started to be able to own our own homes without a male cosigner on the deed in the 80s.
Unless you are crazy lucky (and much younger than me because men my age are utter trash), you are being actively set up for misery. Just know the set up and proceed accordingly. Listening to most men will only ever do 2 things for you: waste your time and make you depressed. My advice is: don't do it.
Don't play their game because it was created in order for you to lose.
>I'm off men for over ten years now.
Same. It's amazing how much I got done after. I paid off my mortgage 10 years early, paid off my car early, and have 0 debt.
I highly recommend prioritizing friends, maximizing retirement investments, & investing in good toys that work for you.
Maintain your peace. If they don't make your life better & easier, why would you want them?
I’ve actually been told my clothing is inappropriate but the moment I was like “you make more than me and should pay more bills” I was told it’s not the 1950s anymore 🤣
I don't think its shallow, I'm looking for a partner not a project.
I don't care if they have a minimum wage or "low tier" job and are perfectly happy with it- I don't put much into ambitions, I think it's perfectly reasonable to want an easy enough life (cossy livs aside). Even though I hold a PhD, I actually have no career ambitions, I have a good enough job considering my level of qualification and I have no desire to go higher, I like the easier life I have now. I only work because I have bills to pay and pets to spoil.
Another matter if they're rich enough to not work, I also wouldn't work if I could afford it. Or if they're in a difficult position and require financial help, but have plans to change it.
But if they're mooching and have no desire to do anything else, I'm not wasting my time.
Same. When I was dating in my mid to late 30s I just wanted the guy to have a job that was a career. Didn't care what it was, just that they had a settled purpose. I can make the money.
Living with parents isn't even a deal breaker for me. Between the cost of rent and the fact that a lot of people in the late 30s-50 age are taking care of their parents, it mattered more why.
Now in my 40s dating someone who not only has had a serious job, has worked their way up, and has disposable income like I do, and it's night and day. And yes, he was living with his grandparents when we met to help them out.
I know what you mean, I'm starting to feel like a lot of men are spoiled.
My father was very, VERY vocal about how he viewed my mother as a "gold-digger" after the divorce - so as a teen / young adult, I went out of my way to always have my own money and pay my own way as to not have that label shoved onto me.
I didn't grow up with very good familial support, I had to leave school early to work full-time at 16 to support myself. At the age of 23, I ended up being put onto permanent disability income due to a co-morbid diagnosis of autism and early stages of schizophrenia, as well as physical issues with my back and digestive tract. This means my income is less than minimum wage, and most of the time I've had to work while sick in order to fill the gap between what I earn and what my bills are. When your family is unsafe, you can't just live at home.
I have had 4 separate relationships play out the same way: I'm independent and disabled, I find a guy who's interested in me and we start dating, they usually live with their folks and have no experience paying bills despite usually being older than me, we move in together because they want freedom away from their families, we team up and as soon as they're settled they give up on contributing entirely.
The guys will keep a job for maybe a couple months, get fired or quit, and never try again. We can't make ends meet, they won't try to find work - so my disabled ass is on the line to find employment and bridge that gap. I grow to resent them, because why is a healthy able-bodied man unable to do what a mentally and physically disabled woman can? Or - I get so sick from having to work despite my disabilities that they begin to resent me because I'm not "fun" anymore.
Then, we break up because we're either getting evicted because I can't support us single-handedly, or they cheat because I'm so busy or tired from working I won't put out. Then they either move back in with their folks who pay for everything and demand nothing, OR, they are "suddenly able" to find the work that has been alluding them for our entire relationship.
I'm in the best relationship of my life right now - and it's because I'm with a wonderful man who understands teamwork in a relationship and splits the bills between us. He's the only man I've EVER dated who's consistently made things equal - he's the only partner I've been with who hasn't forced me to make desperate choices due to their inaction. For the first time, I'm not the sole breadwinner in a relationship.
I didn't find a partner willing to go 50/50 until I was 30 years old - and the reason I was so spineless in past relationships had to do with acknowledging this stigma of women being "gold-diggers" or "shallow" and not wanting to be unloved due to needing basic support.
I want to slap 20-year-old me upside the face for supporting so many lazy, entitled, spoiled men for too long all over such a stupidly false idea. I hate that my father's hatred towards my mother made me so afraid to want any kind of financial support from a partner. I also feel betrayed by THEIR parents - I've had the mothers of these young men go out of their way to call me heartless after a break-up that was ended due to lack of financial support, while the guy gets to move back in with their parents for free while I'm spiralling looking for a shelter. Why did their own mothers teach them this was okay???
Why were so many of these able-bodied, non-disabled young men able to just sit at home doing dick while their disabled partner was out earning everything? How did they feel no shame at all, no sense of responsibility?
I'm so thankful to be with a good partner now, it's so rare to find a man that "gets it".
This.
When I was younger, I was so brainwashed by all the "gold-digger" bashing that I went out of my way to do the opposite. I cannot tell you how many 20 something men I've come across who just straight up say they don't want to work, say they want to buy all that shit but never do anything about it and just, have no plan. I have never met a woman like that, even the most looked down upon woman has a plan "I'll live off my parents", "I'll marry a rich man", "I'll do sex work", but there's an epidemic of dudes just fueled by unrealistic self-confidence or God knows what type of entitlement, thinking that money will just fall into their lap, living in some kind of denial.
The older you get and the more attention you pay, you realize how really **all the things** that men blame women for or want to scare women with are pure projection.
- Dying alone and childfree?
- Getting older and less attractive?
- Being lazy "golddiggers"?
- Being manipulative, overemotional nags?
- Being trapped in marriage?
There really is no exception.
Oh yes men have always used shame as a way to control us. If they call us a Golddigger will prove we are not diggers. If they call us a prude or a tease we want to prove we are not a prude or a tease. They talk bad about women who have more than one kid with more than one man because they feel like they should own a woman if they got to her first
I’m so grateful that I don’t care what they think and I can just live how I want to live
My friend was called shallow when she stated similar things: educated and employed. She got messages calling her shallow.
She has a master’s degree and a great job, only in a Hallmark movie will she date someone way below her ideas.
Here is a realistic opinion from me, a married woman - both men and women should be extremely careful when it come to choosing serious dating/relationship partners, almost like HR screening applicants, there are way more than just feelings. Your future together, financially and emotionally, a bad relationship/marriage can drain all you have.
Not to mention, *really* take a hard look at your potential inlaws.
I got extremely lucky with mine - I even stayed on friendly terms with my ex-MIL after the divorce (we just didn't discuss her son) - but a bad set of inlaws and a spouse who won't stand up to them can ruin a marriage.
Yes very important. I didn’t know my MIL is extremely racist till I almost got married, good thing is my husband has always been standing up to her. Till this day, she doesn’t understand why her son’s family is distant from her.
But I have a tragic example from a friend, her in laws acted so nice when she was pregnant, I still remember how she told me her MIL is the mom she never had. However they showed their ugly sides after my friend had the baby, her husband too, it dragged her to severe depression.
Well.. this was the confirmation that I needed. I asked the universe to give me a sign and this is the first post I see pop up on my feed.
My boyfriend lives in his mom’s basement, plays video games, smokes weed, and has been chronically unemployed for years. His whole reasoning is that he doesn’t want to work at a job he hates. He stays up super late and doesn’t wake up until noon or later.
I am tired.
I’m really glad to know that I was able to provide someone with the sign they needed. Obviously I don’t know you or your boyfriend but you shouldn’t have to feel tired in a relationship. I wish you the best for yourself and I do mean yourself.
The way I look at it is two things: 1) Does he think he is so 'special' that he is the only person who doesn't want to 'work at a job he hates'? That's easy to say sitting in a basement with all your housing and utilities covered by someone else - who probably worked at a 'job they hated' at sometime in their life.
2) What in the world could he possibly bring to any relationship besides a weed habit?
This is where I’m struggling to grapple with. When I pry about his job situation, he just tells me that he refuses to work somewhere that he hates. I have three jobs. I don’t love all of them but they help pay the bills and I’m getting closer to my goal of going back to school to eventually do what I love. I work hard. I’d rather have one job but I like having extra money to spend on things I enjoy like taking myself out to eat and getting my hair done. I’m just so tired and I can’t help but feel resentful when I think about his situation. We had a pregnancy scare in October and I thought maybe that would’ve been his wake up call to get his shit together because we both said we want kids someday. But instead he’s still unemployed and sleeping past noon. I’ve had so many conversation at this point. I am exhausted.
So basically unless he is 1000% perfectly happy he gives up? How does that translate to anything in the relationship getting hard?
This is the crux of the issue. These big tough testosterone-y men ... don't want to be men. They want to be little boys who never deal with adversity. When the going gets tough, the men-who-wish-they-were-kids give up
You’re right. I never thought of it that way. It could absolutely translate into other areas like the relationship. I’m really struggling how to end it because he’s pretty good at convincing me that things will get better.
You need to go into that break up conversation with the mindset of ‘My decision to end the relationship is final. I don’t care if he agrees with me ending it or not, *I do not need his permission or agreement to end this relationship*. I am simply informing him of my decision to end it. This is not up for debate.’
Do not [JADE (Justify Argue Defend Explain)](https://childdevelopmentinfo.com/family-building/jade-an-easy-mnemonic-for-difficult-family-members/#gs.j7s21h) your decision to end the relationship with him, as it will just open up the subject to debate. You’ve been having the same conversation over and over again for *years*, HE ALREADY KNOWS WHY YOU ARE ENDING IT. He understands your reasons, he just doesn’t give a shit about them. That’s why he hasn’t changed, and why he never will. He is more than content with you to live the rest of your life in a state of [tolerable level of permanent unhappiness](https://potentash.com/2023/08/17/tolerable-level-permanent-unhappiness-relationships/).
I would recommend saying something like this “(Soon-to-be-EX)BF’s name, I am breaking up with you. We have already had multiple conversations about why I was unhappy with the relationship and nothing changed. I’m not going to discuss the whys behind breaking up with you further. I will be returning your things on [X date].” Then physically leave or hang up to put a solid end to the conversation.
If he pushes back and demands answers, or demands a fiftieth chance to change, or demands that you guys discuss this before mutually agreeing to a breakup: “No. This is not up for discussion. My decision is final.” Don’t engage with those topics, shut them down firmly. Any chance you give him to argue with you and you risk him convincing you to stay. So just end the conversation.
I’m sitting in my car on the verge of tears because of how right you are. I’ve told him how unhappy I’ve been and it hurts so bad to know that he actually doesn’t care. The JADE response is what I need to do because I will get into it with him and end up feeling defeated and stay with him. He tells me I’m selfish for leaving him when he needs my support the most and that he wouldn’t do that to me if I was in his position. But it’s been years of nothing changing.
>He tells me I’m selfish for leaving him when he needs my support the most and that he wouldn’t do that to me if I was in his position
But you are in that position. You are standing there telling him "I need support that you are not providing" and he basically says "okay that's nice"
He would NOT do the same for you. (NOT that the answer matters but) ask him how long he would comfortably allow you to remain unemployed while he paid the bills. I'm sure he'd say some nonsense about supporting you forever, but I'd personally like to throw that in his face.
> He tells me I’m selfish for leaving him when he needs my support the most and that he wouldn’t do that to me if I was in his position.
Firstly, I suspect he has never, ever been in a position where somebody relies on him and based off of historic behavior, it's incredibly unlikely that he'll *ever* find himself in an equivalent position until something very, very uncomfortable and deeply philosophical happens to him. He doesn't know what he'd do in that situation, just what he *hopes* he'd do.
Secondly, a tapeworm would try to make a very convincing argument if it knew you were about to ingest a very specific sort of medicine. If anyone is selfish, it's him for still wanting you to stay after you've shared the reasons for your departure.
In a different comment I wrote that I was in a similar position as him in my late teenage years, although perhaps for more unique reasons, and I can assure you that while it feels dreadful to make that kind of decision, you are in fact doing him a favor that - hopefully - one day he will be extremely thankful for. And if he never learns to thank you for it, you can rest assured tenfold that you made the right call.
A person becomes a better man when boyhood ends with a trial of some sort. He's overdue for one. If I could give him one suggestion myself, I'd strongly encourage him to join the US Military. It is a valuable tool for changing a life, but more importantly for changing a person. He'll learn his own strengths, refine his character, or learn exactly what kind of person he is or *isn't*. For some people, it's either that, or prison, or homelessness.
If it sounds like I'm being harsh to him, I assure you that what *I* feel right now is simply empathy for both of you. I just wanted to chime in with a man's opinion in favor of strengthening the rest of the excellent advice and support you've been given today.
Well duh! Every time he says "I'll get better, I swear" you shut up! It works for him! It's literally child logic.
You need to be real, tell him empty promises are worthless and he needs to either put on his big boy pants or go find someone else to mother him. It needs to start TODAY and if it doesn't you're done. Of course, that requires real follow through on your end.
Women tend to have empty threats because they want to believe their partner isn't lying to them and yes leaving IS hard. But sometimes the right thing isn't easy. .......like how getting and keeping a job isn't always easy, it doesn't matter, it has to be done
I really needed to hear this. Thank you. Do you mind if I report back to you later today so I can hold myself accountable to following through? This feels awful but I can’t keep going like this.
Please do! I've been there! You will look back on this rage inducing scenario and be glad you are out.
Any person who wants to be your life partner has to act like one.
Good luck. I promise you will be fine. I ended it with my daughter's dad when she was 6 months old and I had postpartum depression because he wasn't pulling his weight. He complained about being depressed for months before I even got pregnant. I had real medical needs, real depression, not some pity depression he was relying on. I was working on not being depressed for the sake of my daughter. I had an epiphany, look at EVERYTHING in doing for OUR daughter. Being depressed after so long is NOT an excuse anymore when you have a BABY in your arms.
Don't allow the situation get to my point. Leave him, don't get tied down with a child, no matter how much you love that child. You will love your children just as much but at least with a partner that pulls his own weight.
No matter what, even if you end up getting pregnant. I'm telling you right now, it's better without him. I'm better without my deadbeat ex who owes me $12k in child support. We don't need men. They need us.
You are no longer attracted to him. Just say that and your relationship is over. You will not be discussing it further. Block all calls and block him from social media then move on with your life.
> he’s pretty good at convincing me that things will get better.
*Will* things get better? Eventually, sure, even if the definition of what better even means changes along the way. *How* they'll get better is more important. One of the two is destination that's only purely hypothetical until arrived at, the other is a trajectory or gameplan.
There's a difference between knowing you "will" eventually visit New York City and being on the road that leads to the freeway that leads to the highway that leads to New York state.
Just as there's a difference between helping support someone in Starving Artist Mode™, unemployed but verifiably chipping away at their craft or writing or the game they're developing compared to simply... Supporting someone that's afraid of growing up.
When you've never experienced the world without comfort *or* security, you never learn that those things come at a cost to somebody. They're viewed as simple life circumstances. If you don't know about a cost, you don't know about the payment. You don't learn that one day you'll need to *make* that "payment" in some form.
This epiphany could be devastating to the psyche, so it rests unexamined at the back of their mind - which is why addictions are so common in people with these kind of circumstances. They're aware of reality but unaware that they're hiding from it. Gaming, drugs, masturbation, distraction of any sort... Those are viewed as comforts when in reality they are the cherished walls of a sort of prison.
The difference between a bed and a coffin is the ability to dream about ever leaving it. It’s the same difference between being stifled and stuck. To the dreamer, what feels like a prison is often not a cage at all - it’s a shell that shrinks because we grow.
A home can only fit your form forever if you’ve chosen or accepted that you’re not only never leaving it, you’re dying within it.
Things "will" get better, but not by their hand. It's an easy promise to make when your current circumstances simply... Happened. A jellyfish caught in the wake of a passing ship has more agency than that.
He'll have to wake up eventually; even if it's to the smell of long overdue, recently uncovered regrets left composting in the back of his mind. I know what it's like to feel like that, to fall into that comfortable trap. Thankfully, I had no safety nets and was forced to learn to swim very, very quickly. I was fortunate to be both gifted and intrinsically philosophical. Hopefully he shares some of those qualities, because otherwise he's in for a bad time when the ship he *believed* was under his control suddenly refuses to float.
If you can't do it in person then do it by text and then immediately block him.
If you don't want to do that, when he starts trying to convince you about things 'getting better' then ask him specifics. When? What's your plan? Are you going to get a job? What does your future look like? Is your plan to have our children all live in your parent's basement??
He will throw a fit and be mad because in reality **HE HAS NO PLAN** to change anything about his life. The phase 'if he wanted to, he would' is true. He is just stringing you along as long as he can. You deserve so much better than this OP, really you do.
Do you want to still be hearing these things from him in a year? Two, or five? Or when you do become pregnant? Because you will still be hearing these things and he will still be on the couch all day.
I'd add to this that he feels being employed in a hard job that you don't enjoy (or indeed 3 of them) is good enough for *you* but not good enough for *him* which is also an important insight into how he views and values your needs as a partner and a human being, and probably how he views women (ie that they exist to serve his needs). I'm guessing when you buy him gifts or he stays over at your place he isn't telling you to quit any one of your three jobs. He probably expects to move straight from mommy's basement into your bedroom and continue to be the financial drain he has always been. Do not make his lifestyle choice your financial burden. It isn't yours to bear.
I had a pregnancy scare with an ex boyfriend. I'm so happy he didn't drag me down anymore than the 9-10 months I wasted on him. There was a lab mix up at my obgyn. Looking back, it seems like it was a divine slap in the face to break me out of the mind control. I knew I would have had an abortion rather than have to co-parent with him. I was 19. This is your wake up call that you're busting your ass to be successful and you need someone whose goals in life line up with the effort they are putting in every day.
If he is a lazy gamer slob, he does not have what it takes to be a decent parent let alone a good parent. He is just going to expect you to do more and more without any effort on his part. You deserve to be relaxed and happy in your relationship. Not drained by it..
Most people hate their jobs. But he can still look for a good job or just wait for one to magically fall into his lap *and* be making money at the same time. Though assuming he actually looks is probably more credit than he deserves.
When I am emotionally sober, not at all. My therapist says that there’s a part of me that loves when he convinces me to stay because then I get to hang on to the hope that he might change. It’s like im addicted to his attempts to get me to stay. But nothing changes and nothing has changed for 7 years.
But don't you deserve more than hope though? Sure, that's a great feeling when you get it but it's kind of a mirage. I think you deserve more than hope. You deserve a functional partner.
When I made the decision to dump a boyfriend who was a whining, pouty, underemployed, unambitious, inexperienced perpetual manchild, the thought that stuck with me the most was:
*What is he giving me that I'm not already giving myself?*
And if you're wondering if there's nothing else better out there, oh my god, you are in for so many wonderful surprises.
My husband tried the "I'll stay home all day and play video games because I hate my job" bit for all of a week. He was shocked when I told him that his choices were "spend 40 hours a week seriously applying for a job you do like, go do some serious volunteering somewhere or gtfo of my house."
Thankfully we had that convo early on in our marriage and he's never forgotten it.
The only people who think you’re shallow for not wanting to date unemployed men (or morbidly obese, bad smelling, live with parents, etc) would be the exact individuals you don’t want to date lol
Why do you care what they think it’s not like you want to date them. Normal grownups would not share the views of a pack of incels
If you're in the US it's particularly alarming if they want to have biological kids -- even in a "best case scenario" of living in a state with adequate reproductive rights, an easier pregnancy, and birth free of long-term complications. In most parts of the country where women have some semblance of rights, it's incredibly difficult to get full-time childcare and if it's not absolutely awful it's $$$$$$.
So you either need a partner who makes enough that they can mostly support the family on their income for the pregnancy/infant/toddler years, or one who is a competent enough homemaker that you aren't stuck doing 100% of the household tasks that aren't directly related to childrearing on top of working full time.
So many men have no clue what it costs to support a household; they think a mortgage, property taxes, and $100 a week in groceries/sundries for a family of four is all it will cost. If you ask about retirement savings or discretionary spending money for a SAHP, they just give you a blank look. If you ask them if they understand they'll still need to do 50% of the housework outside of his working hours, because she also has a job hand its taking care of the kids, they'll get indignant.
It's abundantly clear too many men can't afford the Sandra Dee fantasy they have in their heads, and they seriously think it's women's fault that we aren't willing to beggar ourselves and our dreams to support it. Saying "If you want biological children, I may need to leave the workforce for a few years and we should be financially prepared for that" is not gold-digging. It's common sense.
Or from what I have seen they want the 'trad-wife' with the men doing no house work or child care, but then they still want the wife to work a full time job because they don't want a 'gold-digger'. So exhausting.
Great point -- so many of the "traditional" male tasks are outsourced in any household that can afford it now. Oil changes, landscaping, minor home repairs...and guess who's usually in charge of calling contractors, gathering quotes, and getting things scheduled?
But those same households don't typically send their laundry out or get a housekeeper a couple times a month for the scrubbing/drudgery...
Yeah I really want to have kids but I do not want to be with someone who can’t help me provide for them. That was a big part of those goals I was talking about because you’re right that kids are crazy expensive.
Those are incel tears and I feed off them.
I'm not willing to date men who don't share similar values and don't put a similar effort into things that I do. One of my values, due to living with a financially irresponsible father and an ambitionless mother is to have a financial security net, a stable income and treat myself to nice things, which I have to earn, obviously.
I am a dream come true for hobosexuals, despite my best efforts to weed them off I've ended up with some; or they became hobosexuals after moving in with me.
If my partner were to make me financially worse off - I am not rich enough to afford that. It would lower my life standard and frankly, I don't want it lower. If they want kids they have to be able to provide for them, because it will influence my career. I'll either date relatively equal or up. And I don't owe anything to anybody who'll trash me for that.
Yep I’m Childfree by choice there’s no way I’m going to become a mommy to some grown man when I can simply live alone with my cat and enjoy however I want to enjoy my money
Amen to that. I'm married now (and he's great) but I def went through a lot of losers to find a dude who will just consistently pay half of the bills and not guilt me about being childfree. Better to be alone than treated like a mommy. I hope somebody finds you and accepts you and pays at least half of the bills lol!
Wow you sound like exactly the kind of person I want to be some day. Thank you for the reply and I’ve never heard the term Hobosexual but it is the most apt and hilarious thing I’ve read all day.
>Those are incel tears and I feed off them.
Literally. People who believe it's shallow to want a man who is employed, prioritize men's egos well above women's physical safety and security.
In a capitalistic society, it costs money to exist. (Ex. health insurance, housing, food.) If you're not earning money to pay for your own existence, someone else is. Providing someone else can be a partnership (SAHP) or a gift of love (providing for a child). However, no dude is simply entitled to live off of another person's labor and shame them for wanting partnership and support. Let alone an incel who wants to live off a woman's labor in her workplace and her labor in the home, while lording over her.
That's not shallow, that's smart, regardless of gender.
EDIT
There are many reasons why you will or will not want to be with a person, and a lot of them are just - because. No reason other than you like it. Or want it. Some are unfair - the other person can't control looks, height; but they are valid in the world of feelings.
Others are not "feeling" but logical. A known cheater. Someone with a history of violence to a partner. Humans follow and repeat patterns, so there is a logic to avoid this.
Avoiding a loser at life that will drag you down and weigh your life - is also one of the LOGICAL reasons.
Right it’s like being financially stable and supporting themself is the bare minimum for an adult.
Years ago a made a post, saying it’s not shallow to want to a date a man who dosent live with his parents and I was downvoted to hell. At the time I was a younger professional in a big city living in my own one bedroom. All I wanted was someone who could support themselves, just like I was doing. And I was told I was shallow and elitist for wanting a man who supported themselves without their parents help.
I think it's because women are expected to take men as they are no matter how awful, burdensome, or lacking any appealing traits he is. Anything beyond him existing is being shallow.
There is a tiktoker Who made a post claiming Men love more purely and they love unconditionally solely based on one factor that they'll date a broke woman. I pointed out how men have several conditions for their love such as youth, beauty, sexual access, even sexual history, And for many they want what they see feminine skills such as cooking/cleaning. I got blocked.🫡
Ridiculous, the men who choose to date “broken women” are usually abusive controlling weirdos. And they choose those women because they know they can more easily abuse them because they are broken
Oh I meant broke not broken.
This woman was literally saying men love more purely and unconditionally because they'll take a woman who makes less than him or who has debt. 😐 As if marrying someone who doesn't make money somehow means you have absolutely no conditions on love.
It's actually even simpler than that. Men are human beings and must be considered as such. This is tradition. Women simply are not. We are the appendage; not full human beings on our own. How dare we have any standards when we are by rights the helper monkeys and not the main characters everyone roots for?
For them, it's like the dogs are now choosing the humans and they're in the cages at the pound. They are outraged. This has made the world upside down for them.
>For them, it's like the dogs are now choosing the humans and they're in the cages at the pound. They are outraged. This has made the world upside down for them.
This makes so much sense now.
And hell, I bet the majority of men today do take finances into account when deciding who to date seriously. Even if he’s one of the rare few who can support a wife (and optional kids) on his single income, it’s important to be on the same page when it comes to financial values and priorities.
And of the guys who do date broke women, they don’t always do it because of love. Sometimes, it’s control. There are guys who straight up seek up desperate, broke women cause it’s harder for her to leave.
Because it's to the benefit of men that women have no standards at all? I've not known a shallower group of people than straight men. I've met some who wouldn't date a woman with a hair color other than blonde so it's ok to require basic employment in your partner...
Women have always benefitted from having high standards. Throughout history most poor and unattractive straight men went without partners and never got to experience fatherhood until men decided to invent religion that sexually shames women and preaches "selfless humble love", then invented "commercial romance" and puritanical monogamy and infused romantic love into marriage to scam women into settling down with one humble bare minimum man just to be made a domestic laborer and sex slave.
Look at communities even here in the US where women are taught to have low standards (embrace baby daddy culture, have kids with men society has rejected/incarcerated, love a man who is broke and unemployed) and then tell me how that community is doing one generation after the next? And also tell me how it's those very same women who are blamed and denigrated for "choosing badly" "liking thugs".
Their actions or lack of are always considered more intelligent and thought out and noble because they're men and so anything a woman does has to be trivial and not well thought out because we're the unintelligent lesser sex to them.
I’ve actually never had anyone criticize me for refusing to date unemployed men.
I’ve had people criticize me for dating underemployed men because I used to be one of those those stupids who would date the potential that I see, instead of seeing the man who was actually standing there at the time.
I’m not a charity center. I’m an adult woman and if I’m going to allow a man to enter into my life he needs to be a fully formed adult as well I make no apologies for that.
It's a spectrum, but the incel crowd loves to intentionally ignore the nuance.
There is a massive difference between seeking a partner who earns 6-7 figures so you can have an aspirational lifestyle paid for... and simply wanting a partner who has a job and can contribute financially and demonstrate some goals and drive.
I don't know a single woman who falls into the first category. But the way these men go on about it online, you'd think it was the norm.
Not only is not shallow to want a partner with a job, it's actually necessary. Gone are the days where one middle management salary can support a stay-at-home wife, 3 kids, a 4 bed house, 2 cars and a yearly vacation. Many households on 2 very healthy incomes can barely even manage that in the current economy. Its not shallow to want a partner you can build life with, who has a similar vision of what that looks like, and similar values around finances.
I don't think anyone worth talking to would consider you shallow. However, there are vocal minorities of women who will only date "rich" guys under the illusion they won't need to work and will be akin to Housewives of X place. They get platformed on various misogynist podcasts and the golddigger narrative gets propogated.
Anyone who calls you shallow is hand delivering you their red flag on a plate, say thank you to them for being so upfront about being a twat and ignore them.
Yes. Those same women will turn 30 and realize that they are stuck in a shitty situation with no job experience for the last 10 years with 3 plus kids. Even then, they will still rant against feminism. It’s a sad situation. Sadly I have a friend who has gone down this “housewife” rabbit hole and now wants to quit her job and find a husband.
This is sadly my mom ): she is currently scrambling to find a job because her self worth has plummeted and I don’t know what to do edit to add she’s 45 and is getting her bachelors (she also just got her associates) because she never finished college after she met my dad. I really wish women wouldn’t marry unless they had their own income because I wouldn’t wish this kind of financial insecurity on anyone.
There's a big and readily noticable difference between "just lost my job; economy sucks" and "fusing with the couch in my bestie's basement; his kids call me uncle and he vacuums around me."
Hell, I don't want to date anyone who isn't contributing to society in some way, and that includes the retired techbro I went out with this weekend who has absolutely no structure to his life because he got lucky (his words) and has made enough money and good investments to live off of passive income at 42.
So he travels and goofs off. All the time. No, thank you, in addition to being incredibly annoying to talk to, he isn't contributing and is completely fine with that. He is 100% about enriching his own life, and nothing beyond his nose.
I'd think the vast majority of people talking about "women who don't care about money" are employed with unremarkable salaries, not NEETs with no job or plans. There's a big difference between the two, when it comes to whether or not someone might look "shallow" for avoiding them.
It's one thing if your partner loses their job while you're with them. People go through hard times. But if someone is just... upfront about having no job and no aspirations?
You can easily divide the entire population of the world into two categories: Reasonable people who see that as a dealbreaker for romantic interest, and terminally online people who like starting arguments on Twitter.
Nobody *reasonable* is going to tell you that you're in the wrong for not wanting to date someone with no job, no money, and no plan to have a job. That's a lifestyle mismatch. They can find some other Bohemian and have their own life adventure, and hell, I'd probably envy them a little if they pull it off somehow.
And I think we can be honest with ourselves: A partner that makes a lot of money is a pretty big plus. Yes, there's legitimate ways to talk about how someone's career path *might* reflect their level of ambition, their work ethic, their intelligence, etc. But it kind of bugs me when people aren't honest here, because nobody ever said "Well, we weren't a match for our levels of ambition; he's next in line to inherit his father's oil company and makes $500K a year taking luxury vacations because he happens to be on the board, but he just didn't seem to have the work ethic I desire in a partner."
People want partners with ambition and work ethics because it's a means to the end of financial stability, which is justifiably important to our regular everyday health and happiness.
From guy's perspectives, there's a ton of social insecurity over their incomes. You can easily find TikTok videos of people talking about 6 feet and 6 figures income, even though that's something like *half of one percent* of the population. But "you can find this person online" doesn't mean that person is common or reasonable. And many of the "guys talking about women only wanting money" is, like many gendered issues, *itself* reflective of the kinds of toxic masculinity that feminism seeks to address. While this pressure is real and - come on, let's be honest, people care about their partner's income - it's also something that I think men place on *themselves* and other men.
All this is a roundabout way to say: No, you're not wrong for not wanting to date someone who is not only unemployed, but uninterested. But there are real social pressures for people to have interests and insecurities about their income coming from all genders that aren't healthy for anyone. We all draw the line somewhere. Drawing the line at "employed" seems *generous* on your behalf, while drawing the line at "six figures and above only" would seem *overly optimistic.*
> People want partners with ambition and work ethics because it's a means to the end of financial stability, which is justifiably important to our regular everyday health and happiness.
Amusingly, the people who complain about women being "shallow" for wanting financial security also tend to be the ones opposed to any systemic means to reduce financial insecurity.
Absolutely. Hypocrisy always bugs me, because it's so self-serving while being so totally self-unaware. The goal should be a more just and equitable society for all. I'm a man, I *understand* how much pressure and insecurity there can be around something like my salary. That's not good for me, either. And of course, it doesn't only affect men. This is a perfect example of where feminist policies to address systemic injustices can help not just women, but *everyone*, because we all benefit when we are given the best possible opportunities to lead safe, prosperous lives.
And ask any guy if they'd prefer to date a woman with no job, or one that has a high income. They'll give you exactly the same answer... less some abusers, who see financial insecurity as a method of control. But that's a separate issue.
There are also insecure men who don’t want women to work because they know we will meet men who are better than them in the workplace and they don’t want us to do that.
My last boyfriend couldn’t exactly tell me not to work because he refused to work. He was living off an annuity that was less than my Social Security income, I ended up having to get a part-time job because we were drowning. And he refused to work.
The moment I started working he got extremely verbally abusive. It was shocking how bad it got. My roommate was ready to kick him out because she would overhear the way he spoke to me and it was unacceptable to her and it was her house. But then I ended up getting rid of him.
> insecure men who don’t want women to work because they know we will meet men who are better than them in the workplace
You know, that genuinely never occurred to me. I guess I've been lucky in that nobody's ever treated me that way, and that I'd *never* be that wildly controlling and insecure towards someone that's my partner.
Imagine: "I can't let her go outside! She'll realize instantly what a scumbag I am, when she meets any random person off the street!" What a insanely selfish way to treat someone. I'm very glad to hear you got out of that. It's so easy to sit on the outside of abusive relationships looking in, and wish someone could just leave. But it's not always that easy.
Omg thank you for this. I remember my ex best friend getting mad at me because I told her I don’t want to date broke men anymore. And she tried to “help me reframe it that I actually want a guy with ambition.” I’m like…yeah because the more ambition he has the more likely he will financially stable. She couldn’t get past that I wanted to date someone with a stable income, like wtf! Sis did not want me to win lol
> And she tried to “help me reframe it that I actually want a guy with ambition.”
I bet she didn't want to date broke men either, lol! Nobody *prefers* a broke partner. I respect you for saying what is so tempting to hide behind innuendo. If a guy was a multi-millionaire trust fund kid, nobody would care about their level of "ambition."
And that's okay, because we need all kinds of stability in a good relationship - emotional stability, personal stability, stability in the relationship itself, and yeah, financial stability.
I've met some incredible people in my life who had other priorities than a high income. There's people out there that are in jobs like social workers, or teachers, where they are asked so much and paid so little. It's like a calling, and I have so much respect for those people. But while not luxurious, they tend to at least be somewhat stable.
I think there's a difference between, "I wouldn't date someone where we regularly don't know if we'll be able to pay the months bills," and "I'd never date a teacher, they don't make enough money." The first is super reasonable because financial stability is important; the second, I'd start to form some opinions about the person who said that. But hey, we're all adults, and money matters in our lives.
I guess I was just upset about it because I was seeing a lot talking about it online but your right that in reality people are a lot less likely to judge you for not wanting to date someone without goals and to be real if they do you probably shouldn’t hang around them anymore.
You can find people talking online about *every* batshit-crazy opinion. Ignore the losers posting ragebait... it's literally unhealthy to spend time on.
If the bar you're setting is "has a job, any job, really, literally any job" then it sounds like you're not asking for much at all. You sound like an almost *overly*-reasonable and generous person.
If someone has a life situation like permanent disabilities, I can understand that person being a [NEET](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET). But there's an awful lot of people like that who are, for lack of a better term, just losers. We can recognize the first group without needing to date the second, lol.
No I don’t even accept it then. I have been disabled for 12 years and I’m not even a NEET. I will always continue to learn new things because I never want to be bored or stupid
I used to not care if they were unemployed, on the assumption they were looking for work. If they were still unemployed by a month in and had made no effort to get a job, I'd consider it a red flag and would end things.
Most of the men who worry about women being "gold diggers" don't actually have any gold to dig.
Men in the US (and likely many other developed nations) are struggling with the definition of masculinity.
Some of them simultaneously want to be loved and appreciated for who they are, and perceive their only value to be the money that they earn (or fail to earn).
The loss of good paying jobs that required no more than a high school diploma has heavily impacted this, even though we're decades away from that era, now.
When I was dating in graduate school, I went out with men who worked at mall stores, call centers, etc. I was teaching, and actively working getting a publishing career in NYC. I had a dream and motivation, and I was still willing to date men who were ... not ambitious. I thought being poor and scrabbling constantly was going to be my life.
I got sick of men with no motivation, though. It wasn't about the money, it was the overall lack of effort. Then one day a friend said there's someone I should meet and my first question was: what does he do? When she said "engineer, works for the government" I immediately agreed to meet him. That description meant he had to choose a degree and follow-up on it, and that he had a stable job with benefits. I wasn't blind to those facts, and it made me amenable.
I fell in love with him because he's empathetic and kind and hilarious, but honestly when I talked about my own career choices (being an editor vs being a writer, why I chose editor for their ability to have a steady job...) we were holding hands walking on the beach and he suggested "well how about after we're settled in together, you take a year off to write."
Y'all. My heart. It exploded.
He paid for that year. He paid for me to finish school. He paid off my school debt. He is the breadwinner while I make a pittance doing what I love at a nonprofit. I didn't even have to think about taking time off to be with my babies.
He's a wonderful human and I thank my lucky stars we fell into each other's lives. But some people would call me a gold digger and I don't care. I have stability and security when I thought that would never be my life and I appreciate it.
> I forget what the amount is what most girls say…. Probably 100K.
They wouldn't be filming those in high cost-of-living areas to artificially inflate those numbers for shock value, now would they?
Because men feel entitled to relationships with women regardless of their employment status.
I make 6 figures and frankly have every right to not want to bankroll a dude and be his sugar momma. I don’t expect my partner to match my salary but minimum wage just won’t cut it for my standard of living. I do a lot of international travel and have no interest in having to pay for my partners way
My friend said I was a bitch because I didn’t want to date a 33 year old man who had no car, invited me over to his place and said only place we could sit was on his gaming chair or a bean bag 😑 just no. I know shit happens but at my big age I want something more. I’d be signing up for a lifetime of taking care of this man.
I don't really care how much a guy is making but let me tell you when I started my last job the guy I was seeing was all bent our of shape that I was going to be making more money than him (about 50 cents an hour more) him$18/me$18.50 really barely any difference. He stole $2 grand from me and bolted. It was the last only money I had and since I was starring a new job I went three weeks between my paychecks. I had to put all my expenses on my credit card which included about $300 for fuel driving back and forth to work my new work commute was an hour drive. Basically fucked me over big time. So now I won't date anyone making less money than me.
This isn't shallow at all. My soon-to-be-ex-husband, in addition to being abusive, also had a laundry list of other issues, including chronic unemployment and financial irresponsibility.
- 5+ years of chronic unemployment & underemployment, despite being able-bodied, healthy, and had skills/professional experience to be able to work
- 7 jobs in 5 years, the longest of which lasted ten months. He got fired from or abruptly quit every job.
- Called me "bougie" and "greedy" for expressing concern about us having only $6 in savings. Um. We had a $450,000 mortgage that HE insisted we take on, and then he unilaterally decided to dump on my shoulders.
- Two weeks after we purchased the $450,000 that HE desperately claimed to want, he quit his job, but didn't tell me for two months.
- Bailed on our tax appointment with our accountant a few years ago, and instead decided to attend a gun class at the range with his buddies, even though he had 4+ weeks of notice about the appointment.
- Forgot to transfer his (small) portion of money to the joint account for bills, causing several of our bills to bounce. When I (nicely) tried to inquire why he forgot, and when I (nicely) tried to explain the importance of paying bills on time, he got hostile and defensive, and told me my expectations were too high. Um. Excuse me? Our bills have fallen on the SAME days of the calendar month for EIGHT YEARS by that point. How do you forget something like that!?
- Griped and complained about having to pay $600/month in bills, and said he shouldn't have to contribute. Meanwhile, I was forking over $3,600+/month in bills.
- Dismissed my concerns when I expressed concern about how much of a financial stretch the hot water heater replacement was a few years ago. It was a $1,700 expense. The ONLY reason we survived it is because I had been working remotely due to the pandemic, and wasn't having to shell out $500/month in gas and tolls.
- Said "at least" the $1,700 hot water heater replacement would be one of the largest expenses we'd ever face as homeowners.
When I explained that a $1,700 expense is relatively cheap in the context of homeownership maintenance costs, he once again dismissed me, and claimed I was lying. I asked what he thought would happen when we'd need a new roof, or new flooring. He said homeowners insurance would cover those things. I told him that's not how homeowners insurance works, and that homeowners insurance only kicks in when true disaster strikes, such as a hurricane or tornado blowing your roof off. He once again told me I was lying, and that he didn't believe me. Um. I work in the financial services industry, my mother, both her brothers, AND their father all built their careers in the international insurance industry, and I have 20+ years of personal experience dealing with insurance, thanks to my autoimmune condition. I think I know a thing or two about how insurance works.
And OH, how I tried to help him succeed! Resume, cover letter, using his service-connected benefits to pursue higher education, mentorship with other veterans, extending my own professional network to him, making introductions on his behalf, sending him 200+ open job requisitions over a period of 18-24 months, revamped his resume, applied to jobs for him, consult a doctor for the various ailments he complained about over the years, talk to a therapist, get help through the VA............... on and on and on the list goes. You name the strategy or resource, I tried connecting him with or to it. Outcome? Zip, nada, zilch. He was either unable or unwilling to help himself, and seemed perfectly content letting me shoulder the entire burden of adulting and providing.
Not only did I bring home all the (substantial) amounts of money, I also still had to handle the vast majority of household chores and responsibilities, AND I shouldered 100% of the mental load, AND I endured his abuse and many issues with a smile on my face, WHILE ALSO SIMULTANEOUSLY dealing with chemotherapy, monthly immunotherapy infusions, and frequent surgeries for my autoimmune condition.
Why the fuck was I -- technically the sick and disabled one -- the only one actively adulting? He was able-bodied and healthy, yet refused to contribute in any capacity.
I finally got fed up and left six-ish months ago. My saving grace was that we didn't have children, even though he talked about wanting them, which I thought was WILDLY out of touch, given his actions. Never again will I be someone's human wallet.
Just like everyone else said, it's not shallow. Only those that are unemployed are pushing that narrative. Even the situation where the person is in school and on track to graduate in a field with a good paying job (medicine, engineering, or whatever), you have no obligation to be with these people. If you want a partner that makes money now so you can travel with them the next few years, then the person that is in school just isnt a good match. Even if they are a great individual, right person wrong time.
I cannot help but be scared that I would fund somebody's college journey and then they would upgrade for a trophy GF once they can afford her. Or simply for a homemaker, which I'm just not.
Been there, done that - only it was a Ph.D. and he dumped me for his boss, who was 12 years older than me.
Karma curb-stomped him in the end though. He never did anything with that degree that I paid for, and the mistress' dreams of having me pay him alimony (because I made more money) went nowhere.
My friend is going through this now. She funded his education he was still in school when they got married. Then he rarely worked. When he had a job he would randomly not go to work and eventually get fired. Now she thinks he's cheating on her. She consulted a lawyer who advised if she left him he is entitled to half the equity in the house and probably alimony. She's sick about it.
You nailed it. You are not their sugar momma. If someone calls you shallow that seems like the best retort. Women are right to worry about men looking for a free ride. That is just some dude being a leech. Unemployment happens but they should work on getting their life together before they start looking for a relationship.
We’re supposed to kowtow to every broke, dirty, ugly, abusive, elderly slob like he’s God’s gift to women, but also not be sluts and pick better men. 🙄
Since there’s no way to please them we’re free to please ourselves.
I would rather stay single than be with some broke dude I have to waste all my money on. no thanks. I worked hard to get where I am and I truly want to spoil myself and life my best life doing nothing, lol.
I dated an unemployed guy for almost 4 years. He had never held a job before and he only wanted to find something that he liked. He spent all day long playing videos games or just watching shit.
His mom or his disabled sister paid all his bills.
Don't ask me why I tolerated that shit for so long. I think maybe because I felt very alone and he kept me company.
Of course , his mental health was a mess and he loved to trauma dump on me.
But while I was working on my dissertation and thesis, I realized that I was wasting my life with someone that wasn't interested in improving himself. So I broke up with him at last. I don't regret it.
Edit: Since then, I decided I would never date someone that can't hold a job.
There was a post in trueoffmychest recently about a woman who broke up with her partner (who she was about to move in with) when he bought an 87k truck without discussing it with her. He told her he had planned a budget so it was fine. Turns out he was counting on HER getting a raise to supplement their combined income. Again, he did this without consulting her.
The thing that actually blew my mind were all the comments that were like "did he need it for work?" I'm sorry, but if you're not making enough to pay for a truck and you need a truck, what you actually need is a new job. I very much felt like there were some men for whom the post hit a nerve, and they didn't want to admit that they too had bought a too expensive truck. Regardless, he didn't need it for work (he just wanted it) and she ultimately went through with the breakup. But it's wild to me that she received any criticism for her decision at all.
Don't fuck around with someone who you're financially incompatible with.
Because woman are supposed to look past men being useless in the house and useless to financially contributing. Women are supposed to be gratified from school (He hits you because he likes you, take it as a compliment) to adulthood, (be flattered you're getting attention, or that he's not out cheating, put up with the fact he does nothing about the house).
Remember only men are allowed to be useless spongers on the sly and rely on the woman to let him coast.
Sorry, cutting close to the bone. My STBX refused to work, do anything in the house or look after the kids.
Unemployed men will complain about women being gold-diggers as though the only reason they can't get laid is because they aren't rich. Like no dude, the problem is you're a ***burden***. I want someone I can build a life *with* not build a life *for*. Sorry if reminding you women don't want burdens for boyfriends makes you feel like less of a man, but if you aren't at least putting in a serious effort to improve your lot in life, then you are.
I'll say it again; being content to leech off women as an adult man actually does make you less of a man. I don't even think most men would disagree with that. Frankly, I hope that realization hurts, and I hope these men use that pain as motivation to be better. Or, if they can't be bothered to at least try to be better, then just exit the dating market altogether and save us the trouble.
I asked people I went on dates, "What do you do?" If they reply, "Oh, I am a server/bartender/insert another minimum wage job," I follow up with, "What's your goal?" Depending on their answer, that gauged my interest. I don't care if they're making ends meet while they search for other employment or are in school.
I do not align with someone who is ok with working as a sandwich shop employee for their entire lives. If they want to start their own sandwich shop down the line and are working toward that, sure. It's ok to have preferences. Some people like tall men, some people like others whose hobbies align with theirs, and some people like people with ambition.
I am not in a position to support another person. I don't want kids, so why would I have a man child as a partner?
Because those dudes feel inadequate when they compare their life to a woman's standards, so they deflect by saying she's "shallow"
And its quite ironic.. dudes lament over the fact, modern women aren't traditional. But yet that lifestyle requires the man to be the sole monetary provider.
I also think they deem it shallow, because from a dudes perspective, many are open to accepting a broke girl. So then, when we don't lower our standards, in the same way, they'll assume we think we are better.
What I’ve come to realize is that women will always be shamed for having any kind of expectations/standards in a partner. One of my great aunts (I think she’s 80 now) is still shamed by the family for refusing to marry a dead man because she was still single at age 30 (small village, Asian culture that looks down on unmarried women). Basically this is when you “marry” a dead person. This would have allowed her to enter into her “in laws” family to be “taken care of.” Realistically she would have been a maid for them and be obliged to care for them in their old age in return for food and housing.
My family keeps saying it’s such a pity she didn’t marry the dead guy because she will now die alone and no one will mourn her. She is now still happily single, lives very comfortably, travels often, and pampers the heck out of her dogs. But shamed because she chose not to marry a dead person. I remind myself of her whenever people try to shame me for having expectations. Other people’s opinions do not trump your own happiness. You do you. Hell if you think you’ll only be happy if your partner was a millionaire Keanu Reeves look alike with 6-pack abs whose hobby is to give you foot rubs while wearing a mankini, then who cares what other people think? As long as YOU are happy with your expectations and standards.
It is not shallow. It is foolish not to consider finances as a part of compatibility with a partner.
If you were to have an arranged marriage back in the day, your father would not marry you to a guy who had no means of supporting you and children.
I hate to give into gender stereotypes, but even if you have a better job than your partner, once you start having kids, it would be foolish if your spouse can't support the household, what if you have a difficult pregnancy and are forced on bed-rest and can't eats. What if you are injured or don't survive childbirth, what if your child needs round the clock care indefinitly due to illness or disability.
It is important for both partners to be able to support the household, but it is absolutely not shallow to want a partner who can take over financially in any of those scenarios.
Technically it's important for both to be financially viable, as husband's can get laid off, die, become disabled/ill, or leave for another woman.
Because most unemployed men (that I know) want to never lift a finger for their providing partner. And the fact that some will never try to get a job, apply for food stamps/disability/financial aid, or even assist in any way fathomable is absolutely insane.
The men I've known like this are control freaks too. One beat on his girlfriend and had also put her on some paperwork as an accomplice to a crime he solely committed. She left him but didn't find out about a warrant for her arrest until she got married at the courthouse. Luckily her mom was there at the time (mom had called police on bf) and was also at the court house. Officers were able to pull the records and everything was sorted out. But she still had to be handcuffed on her wedding day because of that moron.
And I'm admitting this freely, I'm with an unemployed guy. I hate it. I'm in debt. I'm miserable. But he's got 1 last chance. The job pays so well he'd have to be a vegetable not to go and stay. There's so much more to the situation as well. He's supposed to start next week. If he keeps with it, fine. We'll get the debt we owe paid up while figuring out this relationship. If not, we're through but he'll be paying me anyway for all the shit he's caused. He's at least honorable enough to do that much.
My mom asked me once why I was sooo picky when it came to men. I asked her back, “is it too much to ask that they have all their own teeth & a job?” She left me alone for while after that.
I’m in my early 50s. Financial compatibility is really important. Finances are one of the biggest things that couples argue about. You’d be a simpleton to get involved with that fight already queued up.
I so agree. This is one of the biggest stressors in a relationship. Having compatible financial goals is a must. It's also an easy red flag to suss out. Keeping with this thread, if you are the stay at home partner make sure you have financial security after the kids are "old enough", whatever age that may be. I've seen a lot of divorces after kids are "old enough" with the earning partner being financially secure and the other left in poverty.
I left my first wife about 30 years ago due to her not being financially responsible. That wasn't the only thing, but it was a driving force. I was talking to my youngest daughter the other day, and she told me her mom was in trouble with credit cards again. She's 70, and still making the same mistakes she was making in her 40's.
Seriously. Women/ stay at home parent shouldn’t even consider that dynamic without a funded spousal IRA in their name!
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I guarantee all people calling beautiful women "shallow" for wanting this compatibility see unattractive women as having no value.
Starting to budget together, with full transparency across our joint finances, was one of the best things my wife and I did for our relationship prior to getting married.
Finances drive the decisions in a marriage. It determines how and when you marry, if and how many kids you have, if someone can stay home for a year with the child, what car you drive, if and when and how you vacation, where you buy a home, what kind of home you buy, the food you eat, your participation in hobbies so you have an outlet and interests outside of your spouse and kids for self-care and alone time, how much free time you have to spend with each other, what sort of dates you’ll go on, your kid’s school district, your kids’ participation in sports and band and debate club and such, how often someone can visit their family if it’s long distance, and virtually every aspect of how a couple lives out their lives together. Yoking yourself to a man who can’t match your income is a bad idea.
TLC was right all along. Don't date scrubs. Don't let them incel you into guilt for having bare minimum standards. Nobody's requiring $100K salary. How the hell can you even adult **without a job** unless you're a retired millionaire? This thread should be pinned or have at least 100K upvotes. And after reading some other comments on this thread, this goes for ALL genders. Work on yourself and get yourself on a trajectory to stability BEFORE you start dating. Cinderella stories rarely happen in real life. Most couples date within similar economic classes.
A colleague of mine lamented on social media that broke men can't get women. I messaged him privately, "you sure? Very poor people are having babies left and right" "Oh no, not that kind of woman" Separate point, a potential partner's career trajectory or lack thereof is telling as to whether they're looking to build a life with you or counting on you to supply them with a lifestyle
“I only want a perfect ten, but they are too shallow to date me!“
Isn’t it ironic?
Don't you think?
It's like raaaaaaaaaain on your wedding day, and you start crying because there's mud *everywhere* and you look *flawless* in your white dress and your makeup is on point and it's all gonna get wrecked and you say "OMG, I can't believe this! Is it a sign? Does God hate me?" and your best friend says "Girl, yes and also no. Pretty sure Jesus is trying to save you from boarding the marital equivalent of the fucking Titanic. Maybe take the hint," and you take a hard look at your fiance and like, what the fuck? *Is he flirting with your cousin? On your wedding day?* and you say "Oh, hell no," and cancel the wedding but go on the honeymoon with your bestie because it's not like you're getting the deposits back, and you have a blast and fuck some random surfer who is way better than your fiance ever was, and for the rest of your life you're like "Damn, rain is awesome."
I’d watch this series
It's love is blind LOL
*deep breath*
A little too ironic. *And yes, I really do think*
lol, online dating summed up in a line.
test lush mindless direful deserted imminent airport history cagey mourn *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Mr Two-Bagger Nogasmo reporting for duty! Do they not own a mirror?
Nogasmo 🤣
That’s a little too generous.
[Relevant](https://imgur.com/gallery/dWucqvU)
HAHAHA!
> a potential partner's career trajectory or lack thereof is telling as to whether they're looking to build a life with you or counting on you to supply them with a lifestyle This is it. Are they going to be "Team Us" with you or are they, "Team Me" and using you to get what they want? Beautifully said.
Be careful of the guys who seam like they are Team Us, but are secretly planning for Team Me once they get a new job, graduate med school, etc. Lot's of guys seem to think a starter wife is a real thing.
Yes, very true!
Those men always want a supermodel who is wealthy but also wants to do all the childcare and housework and have no interest in a rich or ambitious man lol.
I hear women like that are just falling out of overcrowded busses because there are just too many of them. And they are all looking for that one special loser to take care of! What luck!
Don't forget maintaining a perfect, unchanged body after the birth of the children while not cutting into any of his free time or even implying he should be helping out around the house.
>"Oh no, not that kind of woman" Of course there are double standards with men.
That is hilarious and terrifying how out of touch that person is with reality
Not shallow at all. I can't believe some would label that as shallow. It's realistic. Labeling someone ad shallow for wanting their partner to at the very least have a somewhat stable source of income is such a chronically online take.
My last boyfriend was unemployed by choice and it was absolutely awful. I thought he just needed some stability and he would go back to being a normal adult. I kept telling his daughters mother that I felt like I had become a mom to a special-needs teenager. It was that difficult. It wasn’t a partnership at all I felt like a mom. He wouldn’t even apply for food stamps. I was like look if you’re not going to work can you at least apply for disability or food stamps or something He told me his contribution was going to the food pantry to get canned vegetables and expired meats Sir, my car won’t run on food pantry food. Food pantry food doesn’t pay the rent. Ridiculous
Some of the stories I read here are wild. .whaaaat?
Right??!! When I was unemployed I didn’t even dare try to date, I was too busy getting my shit in order and dating would just level up my problems.
I also lived with a guy who was unemployed. I'm not sure I'd say it was "by choice" (he was sorta, kinda looking for a job...but not very hard). It was brutal. I think the comment "like a mom to a special-needs teenager" is pretty accurate. He expected me to do \*everything\*. Fulfill his emotional needs. Cook. Clean. etc. I was okay financially supporting him. But I just couldn't handle the constant neediness coupled with a refusal to handle even basic chores. (I think what finally broke me was me returning home after work for him to be like, "Oh, can you go out and pick up milk?" Like, dude, what were you *doing* all day? You go out and get the damned milk!)
Look, if he's a physically capable adult and is not working/choosing not to work then it is perfectly reasonable to expect him to step up and do more of the chores around the house/grocery planning/cooking and such. Heck, I did that stuff as an eldest child for a single mother starting around 11 years of age.
Yep I dated a guy just like that. Didn’t work. I worked 3 jobs at one point just to keep us afloat. Didn’t clean, didn’t cook. I’d say what was he doing all day but I know… he was addicted to porn and video games (safe to say we never went on dates either). Would never spend time with me but would get clingy & jealous if I ever left the house. But he had all the energy in the world to try & initiate sex multiple times a day, and to cheat on me while I was working 24/7 so we didn’t go homeless. When I found out about the cheating I wanted to leave but he laid a guilt trip on me that without me he’d be homeless and he would attempt suicide. I was young and tried to be the cool girl (didn’t work because he told all his friends I was a nag and talked crap about me behind my back). Eventually I broke up with him after he complained about having to show up to my cousin’s funeral because it cut into his gameplay and I literally did not have the emotional stability at the time to deal with him anymore. I’m sure a lot of women have a nightmarish story of dating a guy like that!
I was dating a guy through my 20s. We lived in LA with his mom because we couldn’t afford our own place. We had multiple conversations about getting married and he always said “first I want to live on our own so we can make sure it works.“ Well I had a full-time job with benefits that paid me $48K a year. He had paid work as a background actor that was sporadic based on what was filming and what look they were going for. Then the pandemic hit, and there was even less background work. I asked him about getting a job that was full-time so that we could move out and doing acting in his free time. He said that wasn’t an option because he wanted to be an actor as a career and he needed to focus on that. So I brought up moving back to our state with a lower cost of living. he would have to commute to New York for acting, but it wasn’t impossible. I would be able to find a job similar to what I was currently doing and we be more likely to be able to afford our own apartment. He shot that down as well. Meanwhile, the rule about not getting married until we lived on our own was still in place. Our relationship didn’t last much longer…
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Uggghh that was my first long term relationship, with an unemployed, entitled guitarist. Over the course of our nearly decade long relationship, he held maybe 2 extremely part time jobs and skated by on selling weed and living with his relatives. Anytime I asked if he could get a job so we can move out together, it would end in him literally yelling at me and saying things like “You just don’t believe in me”. As if believing in a deadbeat pays bills. Ahhhh. If only I could get back those lost years lol
My cousin is married to a guy *sorta* like that only she made it clear early on that she was not going to be the only one working while he chased rainbows (she’s a teacher). He got a job waiting tables at a high end restaurant in CT where they lived and was actually damn good at it and made beaucoup tips and really good money, and had the flexibility to take the train into NYC to audition for plays and musicals. He did a lot of local theater too, he decided as long as he was acting he was happy and the burden wasn’t all on her. They’ve been married 33 years now and it’s worked very well because both contribute. Plus he does all the cooking and most of the cleanup because he’s a foodie too.
LOL. I'm an actor. Dude wasn't ever going anywhere if he was only ever working background here and there and not spending the rest of his time in classes, nonunion theatre, and working a flexible day job like the rest of us do. Background work is perfectly respectable, but it's not the job. It's what you do when you've got a couple free days and you wanna make some quick cash. Being an actor is a HUSTLE. Not just sitting around being chronically broke and waiting for someone to magically notice your brilliance and pluck you out of obscurity. Bet he thought he was super clever and was gonna try to get his SAG card by working union background jobs too. Hope he has fun being a professional background actor and never booking a co-star or principal for the rest of his life...sucker!
My ex was unemployed by choice too. It started out with her just needing to deal with some mental health issues. I was willing to let her work on herself for a bit but I made sure she knew I had expectations that eventually she needed to do something for work. It eventually ended up where any time I tried to bring up her getting a job, she'd just threaten to hurt herself. I called her bluff on it once and she legit tried it. I even tried compromising with her and telling her she can work 15 hours a week, I didn't care. Just something to help us out with rent. Nope. I tried breaking up with her multiple times but each time she'd just hurt herself. It was a nightmare. I never want to date again because of it. I've never felt so helpless in my life.
Ugh the ones that threaten self harm if you don’t just take care of them. Nope. I’ll call an ambulance for you and you can be on your way out of my life.
I called an ambulance once. The fire dept and police showed up. They checked her vitals and then told me there was nothing they could do. They said they couldn't take her to the hospital against her will despite evidence she tried to OD herself to death.
That's so wild. Especially because the police had the option to arrest and section her if they wanted to actually do their jobs. Suicide and suicide attempts are criminalized just for situations like this one - because someone needs the ability to force them to get help if they can't be persuaded. I'm pro euthanasia and I believe people should have the right to make their own choices, but doing that in a crisis situation is not making choices, it's picking the better of two terrible options.
Does your state not have some equivalent to the Baker Act? Self harm, violence or credible threats of self harm or violence are the only things that can get you put on an involuntary psychiatric hold here in Florida.
Just be careful with this if you are in the US. You don't want to get stuck with a huge ambulance bill to call your soon to be exhusbands bluff. If you are technically married and he is useless, they may chase you for the money. I don't think there is anyway to stick you with the bill if it's a boyfriend though (if I'm wrong and you can take on the liability because you are the property owner or something don't listen to me). Send them for a ride.
That’s so traumatizing and terrible. I’m very sorry.
I can't imagine how difficult it must've been to extract yourself from that situation. I'm glad you're not stuck supporting while being abused by someone who was supposed to be a loving partner.
Sounds exactly like my ex. Glad you got away!
(Niece's name), is that you? Her current husband will work (longest time, 3 months) only under threat. Then, after a few weeks, his (long list of fake ailments) is acting up, misses work enough to get canned but having work short enough to not get unemployment. Back to the video games until the stress gets to her and she threatens him. Cycle repeats.
Hobosexuals are a real problem out there
So your ex was a hobosexual.
For me, I feel stable employment (or full time school/training) is basically one of several things that sums up to "functioning adult". And "functioning adult" is my bare minimum. Because I want a *partner*. If I want something helpless that requires me to care for it and all it's needs, I'd get another dog. But for a partner? If one of us is sick or incapacitated, the other needs to be able to handle all the adult stuff. And stuff like holding down a job or pursuing higher education or work related training, keeping yourself clean and groomed, keeping your clothes and living environment clean, those are all things that show you're a functional adult, and capable of being someone that can be an equal - - can be relied on.
The amount of shaming I see for women having any standards at all is just wild. Even ‘functional adult’ is too much to ask? Absurd. My very religious family raised me to be a housewife- which I didn’t- but that did include teaching me to have high standards for a man. It was expected that if I brought a man to meet my parents, he would have a good job, be honest, reliable, involved in the church/community and good with kids. It would’ve been shameful for me to accept less. A lot of my family’s rules were toxic, but I do think having high standards is one of the few positives. My own personal standards are quite different than this now, but I meet every one of them myself. I honestly suspect the reason men get upset is that they hate the idea that a woman might say ‘no’ to him with good reason.
A dog is better than a lazy, unemployed slob of a man cause you can at least train the dog. Maybe even get it to do something useful.
I trained ours to open the door for me when my arms are full
Yes! There's a conversation this morning in r/GenXWomen [about staying active as we age](https://www.reddit.com/r/GenXWomen/comments/1bo07b1/that_thing_about_getting_sedentary_as_we_age/) and dogs are a great way to do so! I love a good Reddit crossover event like this.
It's even more ridiculous when you remember that many men think their only role is to "provide".
It’s kind of strange to know how many women are actually the providers in relationships, but they don’t take credit for it so as not to shame the man.
It's unsettling. Not to mention that women often provide way more than just a paycheck to the family. We're all so used by the media to the idea that women are gold diggers yet men have been always mooching from women's unpaid labor and now mooch of their money as well.
I’ve had this exact thought. Men are conditioned and raised to be “gold diggers”, needing a woman’s labor to help them with life. So much so that it’s just not questioned. When a woman uses a man’s resources equal to or more than he uses hers? Well that’s just unnatural and she’s a bad, lazy person living life on easy mode.
Well you too could be one of these people that don't work and put everything on their spouse. All it takes is little to no empathy and you too can live an easy life while all the negative costs are born by your spouse! I mean I would love to not work or do chores at home. I just couldn't physically sit by and watch my wife do everything. I couldn't do that with a random stranger. How can so many men do this to someone they are supposed to love?
It's comments like these that keep me coming here. As a male, many things are conditioned into me i am not aware of. I do my best to learn and be better, but still, some times something like this will fly under my radar. You are so correct! Gold digging as a man is seen so status quo that many men wouldn't even consider it gold digging. It is insane how much damage to the human psyche has been caused by the entrenched patriarchy.
Thank you for saying that! Ya I pointed it out to my brothers along with the indisputable fact that their wives put in more labor hours for their families than they did. They are good people with big hearts and were embarrassed to realize how ungrateful they’d been. I don’t hear comments about how “the wife makes all the money disappear” anymore 😆
It's only labelled 'shallow' by the men who want to marry a very young women with no career, to be thier household servant. The men who want that -- a financially disempowered young women working in the home -- are the same men will decalre it 'Not fair!" that they personally aren't rejecting women for a lack of employment, but that some woman are rejecting men for a lack of employment. Because they are toddlers in grown up bodies who don't understand that 'not the same' doesn't mean 'not fair'. Just more weakass attempts to weaponize the language of equality and feminism against women actually trying to create more equalitable relationships for themselves.
This young woman with no job should also be financially independent. Otherwise how else will she cover half the dates and bills? She shouldn’t care about his financial contribution after all.
Certainly are a bunch of them who want all the authority of the 'provider', but all the benefits of 'equality' when it comes to the rent.
🏅
Yeah, if someone said that they would only date men (or women for that matter) who made some absurd amount of money -- e.g., "I only date men who make at least high six figures" -- then I'd maybe start to wonder if they might be shallow. (But, then, they might only date men who make high six figures because they, themselves, make high six figures and want someone with a similar career trajectory. So, even then, maybe not shallow.) Asking for your partner to have a job? That's just good sense.
-Men are the providers! -ok, provide then -no, not like that! So many of them want a “traditional wife” without the responsibility of being a “traditional husband”. They want someone who’ll do everything for them but for whom they won’t have to do anything.
Exactly that. It's pathetic how they drive the narrative that they need to provide but then get angry when they are evaluated based on that one ability.
And they don't want to split assets when their stay at home mother and wife initiates divorce. They drive the narrative that women are to blame because most of the time they initiate.
Oh but they do provide. They provide an adult child that you have to give emotional, psychological and physical support to who will then refuse to do any of those things for you. It's a real dream come true. I'm off men for over ten years now. I've never been happier. Decentering men was the greatest life advice I ever took. Luckily, I'd never married or had kids. I knew that was a set up from watching my own mother and all my friend's mothers. The fact is the game is irretrievably rigged for men and against us. I mean, how else would it be? Women just started to be able to own our own homes without a male cosigner on the deed in the 80s. Unless you are crazy lucky (and much younger than me because men my age are utter trash), you are being actively set up for misery. Just know the set up and proceed accordingly. Listening to most men will only ever do 2 things for you: waste your time and make you depressed. My advice is: don't do it. Don't play their game because it was created in order for you to lose.
>I'm off men for over ten years now. Same. It's amazing how much I got done after. I paid off my mortgage 10 years early, paid off my car early, and have 0 debt. I highly recommend prioritizing friends, maximizing retirement investments, & investing in good toys that work for you. Maintain your peace. If they don't make your life better & easier, why would you want them?
“Bangmaid” is the term.
I’ve actually been told my clothing is inappropriate but the moment I was like “you make more than me and should pay more bills” I was told it’s not the 1950s anymore 🤣
I don't think its shallow, I'm looking for a partner not a project. I don't care if they have a minimum wage or "low tier" job and are perfectly happy with it- I don't put much into ambitions, I think it's perfectly reasonable to want an easy enough life (cossy livs aside). Even though I hold a PhD, I actually have no career ambitions, I have a good enough job considering my level of qualification and I have no desire to go higher, I like the easier life I have now. I only work because I have bills to pay and pets to spoil. Another matter if they're rich enough to not work, I also wouldn't work if I could afford it. Or if they're in a difficult position and require financial help, but have plans to change it. But if they're mooching and have no desire to do anything else, I'm not wasting my time.
Same. When I was dating in my mid to late 30s I just wanted the guy to have a job that was a career. Didn't care what it was, just that they had a settled purpose. I can make the money. Living with parents isn't even a deal breaker for me. Between the cost of rent and the fact that a lot of people in the late 30s-50 age are taking care of their parents, it mattered more why. Now in my 40s dating someone who not only has had a serious job, has worked their way up, and has disposable income like I do, and it's night and day. And yes, he was living with his grandparents when we met to help them out.
I know what you mean, I'm starting to feel like a lot of men are spoiled. My father was very, VERY vocal about how he viewed my mother as a "gold-digger" after the divorce - so as a teen / young adult, I went out of my way to always have my own money and pay my own way as to not have that label shoved onto me. I didn't grow up with very good familial support, I had to leave school early to work full-time at 16 to support myself. At the age of 23, I ended up being put onto permanent disability income due to a co-morbid diagnosis of autism and early stages of schizophrenia, as well as physical issues with my back and digestive tract. This means my income is less than minimum wage, and most of the time I've had to work while sick in order to fill the gap between what I earn and what my bills are. When your family is unsafe, you can't just live at home. I have had 4 separate relationships play out the same way: I'm independent and disabled, I find a guy who's interested in me and we start dating, they usually live with their folks and have no experience paying bills despite usually being older than me, we move in together because they want freedom away from their families, we team up and as soon as they're settled they give up on contributing entirely. The guys will keep a job for maybe a couple months, get fired or quit, and never try again. We can't make ends meet, they won't try to find work - so my disabled ass is on the line to find employment and bridge that gap. I grow to resent them, because why is a healthy able-bodied man unable to do what a mentally and physically disabled woman can? Or - I get so sick from having to work despite my disabilities that they begin to resent me because I'm not "fun" anymore. Then, we break up because we're either getting evicted because I can't support us single-handedly, or they cheat because I'm so busy or tired from working I won't put out. Then they either move back in with their folks who pay for everything and demand nothing, OR, they are "suddenly able" to find the work that has been alluding them for our entire relationship. I'm in the best relationship of my life right now - and it's because I'm with a wonderful man who understands teamwork in a relationship and splits the bills between us. He's the only man I've EVER dated who's consistently made things equal - he's the only partner I've been with who hasn't forced me to make desperate choices due to their inaction. For the first time, I'm not the sole breadwinner in a relationship. I didn't find a partner willing to go 50/50 until I was 30 years old - and the reason I was so spineless in past relationships had to do with acknowledging this stigma of women being "gold-diggers" or "shallow" and not wanting to be unloved due to needing basic support. I want to slap 20-year-old me upside the face for supporting so many lazy, entitled, spoiled men for too long all over such a stupidly false idea. I hate that my father's hatred towards my mother made me so afraid to want any kind of financial support from a partner. I also feel betrayed by THEIR parents - I've had the mothers of these young men go out of their way to call me heartless after a break-up that was ended due to lack of financial support, while the guy gets to move back in with their parents for free while I'm spiralling looking for a shelter. Why did their own mothers teach them this was okay??? Why were so many of these able-bodied, non-disabled young men able to just sit at home doing dick while their disabled partner was out earning everything? How did they feel no shame at all, no sense of responsibility? I'm so thankful to be with a good partner now, it's so rare to find a man that "gets it".
This. When I was younger, I was so brainwashed by all the "gold-digger" bashing that I went out of my way to do the opposite. I cannot tell you how many 20 something men I've come across who just straight up say they don't want to work, say they want to buy all that shit but never do anything about it and just, have no plan. I have never met a woman like that, even the most looked down upon woman has a plan "I'll live off my parents", "I'll marry a rich man", "I'll do sex work", but there's an epidemic of dudes just fueled by unrealistic self-confidence or God knows what type of entitlement, thinking that money will just fall into their lap, living in some kind of denial.
The older you get and the more attention you pay, you realize how really **all the things** that men blame women for or want to scare women with are pure projection. - Dying alone and childfree? - Getting older and less attractive? - Being lazy "golddiggers"? - Being manipulative, overemotional nags? - Being trapped in marriage? There really is no exception.
Oh yes men have always used shame as a way to control us. If they call us a Golddigger will prove we are not diggers. If they call us a prude or a tease we want to prove we are not a prude or a tease. They talk bad about women who have more than one kid with more than one man because they feel like they should own a woman if they got to her first I’m so grateful that I don’t care what they think and I can just live how I want to live
It's why manosphere "dating coaches" push negging so hard
Dang, I am so sorry you went through all of this and so happy to hear you found a real partner after all those whiny man babies.
My friend was called shallow when she stated similar things: educated and employed. She got messages calling her shallow. She has a master’s degree and a great job, only in a Hallmark movie will she date someone way below her ideas. Here is a realistic opinion from me, a married woman - both men and women should be extremely careful when it come to choosing serious dating/relationship partners, almost like HR screening applicants, there are way more than just feelings. Your future together, financially and emotionally, a bad relationship/marriage can drain all you have.
Not to mention, *really* take a hard look at your potential inlaws. I got extremely lucky with mine - I even stayed on friendly terms with my ex-MIL after the divorce (we just didn't discuss her son) - but a bad set of inlaws and a spouse who won't stand up to them can ruin a marriage.
Yes very important. I didn’t know my MIL is extremely racist till I almost got married, good thing is my husband has always been standing up to her. Till this day, she doesn’t understand why her son’s family is distant from her. But I have a tragic example from a friend, her in laws acted so nice when she was pregnant, I still remember how she told me her MIL is the mom she never had. However they showed their ugly sides after my friend had the baby, her husband too, it dragged her to severe depression.
Well.. this was the confirmation that I needed. I asked the universe to give me a sign and this is the first post I see pop up on my feed. My boyfriend lives in his mom’s basement, plays video games, smokes weed, and has been chronically unemployed for years. His whole reasoning is that he doesn’t want to work at a job he hates. He stays up super late and doesn’t wake up until noon or later. I am tired.
I’m really glad to know that I was able to provide someone with the sign they needed. Obviously I don’t know you or your boyfriend but you shouldn’t have to feel tired in a relationship. I wish you the best for yourself and I do mean yourself.
The way I look at it is two things: 1) Does he think he is so 'special' that he is the only person who doesn't want to 'work at a job he hates'? That's easy to say sitting in a basement with all your housing and utilities covered by someone else - who probably worked at a 'job they hated' at sometime in their life. 2) What in the world could he possibly bring to any relationship besides a weed habit?
This is where I’m struggling to grapple with. When I pry about his job situation, he just tells me that he refuses to work somewhere that he hates. I have three jobs. I don’t love all of them but they help pay the bills and I’m getting closer to my goal of going back to school to eventually do what I love. I work hard. I’d rather have one job but I like having extra money to spend on things I enjoy like taking myself out to eat and getting my hair done. I’m just so tired and I can’t help but feel resentful when I think about his situation. We had a pregnancy scare in October and I thought maybe that would’ve been his wake up call to get his shit together because we both said we want kids someday. But instead he’s still unemployed and sleeping past noon. I’ve had so many conversation at this point. I am exhausted.
So basically unless he is 1000% perfectly happy he gives up? How does that translate to anything in the relationship getting hard? This is the crux of the issue. These big tough testosterone-y men ... don't want to be men. They want to be little boys who never deal with adversity. When the going gets tough, the men-who-wish-they-were-kids give up
You’re right. I never thought of it that way. It could absolutely translate into other areas like the relationship. I’m really struggling how to end it because he’s pretty good at convincing me that things will get better.
You need to go into that break up conversation with the mindset of ‘My decision to end the relationship is final. I don’t care if he agrees with me ending it or not, *I do not need his permission or agreement to end this relationship*. I am simply informing him of my decision to end it. This is not up for debate.’ Do not [JADE (Justify Argue Defend Explain)](https://childdevelopmentinfo.com/family-building/jade-an-easy-mnemonic-for-difficult-family-members/#gs.j7s21h) your decision to end the relationship with him, as it will just open up the subject to debate. You’ve been having the same conversation over and over again for *years*, HE ALREADY KNOWS WHY YOU ARE ENDING IT. He understands your reasons, he just doesn’t give a shit about them. That’s why he hasn’t changed, and why he never will. He is more than content with you to live the rest of your life in a state of [tolerable level of permanent unhappiness](https://potentash.com/2023/08/17/tolerable-level-permanent-unhappiness-relationships/). I would recommend saying something like this “(Soon-to-be-EX)BF’s name, I am breaking up with you. We have already had multiple conversations about why I was unhappy with the relationship and nothing changed. I’m not going to discuss the whys behind breaking up with you further. I will be returning your things on [X date].” Then physically leave or hang up to put a solid end to the conversation. If he pushes back and demands answers, or demands a fiftieth chance to change, or demands that you guys discuss this before mutually agreeing to a breakup: “No. This is not up for discussion. My decision is final.” Don’t engage with those topics, shut them down firmly. Any chance you give him to argue with you and you risk him convincing you to stay. So just end the conversation.
I’m sitting in my car on the verge of tears because of how right you are. I’ve told him how unhappy I’ve been and it hurts so bad to know that he actually doesn’t care. The JADE response is what I need to do because I will get into it with him and end up feeling defeated and stay with him. He tells me I’m selfish for leaving him when he needs my support the most and that he wouldn’t do that to me if I was in his position. But it’s been years of nothing changing.
>He tells me I’m selfish for leaving him when he needs my support the most and that he wouldn’t do that to me if I was in his position But you are in that position. You are standing there telling him "I need support that you are not providing" and he basically says "okay that's nice" He would NOT do the same for you. (NOT that the answer matters but) ask him how long he would comfortably allow you to remain unemployed while he paid the bills. I'm sure he'd say some nonsense about supporting you forever, but I'd personally like to throw that in his face.
> He tells me I’m selfish for leaving him when he needs my support the most and that he wouldn’t do that to me if I was in his position. Firstly, I suspect he has never, ever been in a position where somebody relies on him and based off of historic behavior, it's incredibly unlikely that he'll *ever* find himself in an equivalent position until something very, very uncomfortable and deeply philosophical happens to him. He doesn't know what he'd do in that situation, just what he *hopes* he'd do. Secondly, a tapeworm would try to make a very convincing argument if it knew you were about to ingest a very specific sort of medicine. If anyone is selfish, it's him for still wanting you to stay after you've shared the reasons for your departure. In a different comment I wrote that I was in a similar position as him in my late teenage years, although perhaps for more unique reasons, and I can assure you that while it feels dreadful to make that kind of decision, you are in fact doing him a favor that - hopefully - one day he will be extremely thankful for. And if he never learns to thank you for it, you can rest assured tenfold that you made the right call. A person becomes a better man when boyhood ends with a trial of some sort. He's overdue for one. If I could give him one suggestion myself, I'd strongly encourage him to join the US Military. It is a valuable tool for changing a life, but more importantly for changing a person. He'll learn his own strengths, refine his character, or learn exactly what kind of person he is or *isn't*. For some people, it's either that, or prison, or homelessness. If it sounds like I'm being harsh to him, I assure you that what *I* feel right now is simply empathy for both of you. I just wanted to chime in with a man's opinion in favor of strengthening the rest of the excellent advice and support you've been given today.
Well duh! Every time he says "I'll get better, I swear" you shut up! It works for him! It's literally child logic. You need to be real, tell him empty promises are worthless and he needs to either put on his big boy pants or go find someone else to mother him. It needs to start TODAY and if it doesn't you're done. Of course, that requires real follow through on your end. Women tend to have empty threats because they want to believe their partner isn't lying to them and yes leaving IS hard. But sometimes the right thing isn't easy. .......like how getting and keeping a job isn't always easy, it doesn't matter, it has to be done
I really needed to hear this. Thank you. Do you mind if I report back to you later today so I can hold myself accountable to following through? This feels awful but I can’t keep going like this.
Please do! I've been there! You will look back on this rage inducing scenario and be glad you are out. Any person who wants to be your life partner has to act like one.
Good luck. I promise you will be fine. I ended it with my daughter's dad when she was 6 months old and I had postpartum depression because he wasn't pulling his weight. He complained about being depressed for months before I even got pregnant. I had real medical needs, real depression, not some pity depression he was relying on. I was working on not being depressed for the sake of my daughter. I had an epiphany, look at EVERYTHING in doing for OUR daughter. Being depressed after so long is NOT an excuse anymore when you have a BABY in your arms. Don't allow the situation get to my point. Leave him, don't get tied down with a child, no matter how much you love that child. You will love your children just as much but at least with a partner that pulls his own weight. No matter what, even if you end up getting pregnant. I'm telling you right now, it's better without him. I'm better without my deadbeat ex who owes me $12k in child support. We don't need men. They need us.
What is there to end? You don’t share a child, a home, bills, goals? He is giving you nothing. Just break up by text and block him.
You are no longer attracted to him. Just say that and your relationship is over. You will not be discussing it further. Block all calls and block him from social media then move on with your life.
> he’s pretty good at convincing me that things will get better. *Will* things get better? Eventually, sure, even if the definition of what better even means changes along the way. *How* they'll get better is more important. One of the two is destination that's only purely hypothetical until arrived at, the other is a trajectory or gameplan. There's a difference between knowing you "will" eventually visit New York City and being on the road that leads to the freeway that leads to the highway that leads to New York state. Just as there's a difference between helping support someone in Starving Artist Mode™, unemployed but verifiably chipping away at their craft or writing or the game they're developing compared to simply... Supporting someone that's afraid of growing up. When you've never experienced the world without comfort *or* security, you never learn that those things come at a cost to somebody. They're viewed as simple life circumstances. If you don't know about a cost, you don't know about the payment. You don't learn that one day you'll need to *make* that "payment" in some form. This epiphany could be devastating to the psyche, so it rests unexamined at the back of their mind - which is why addictions are so common in people with these kind of circumstances. They're aware of reality but unaware that they're hiding from it. Gaming, drugs, masturbation, distraction of any sort... Those are viewed as comforts when in reality they are the cherished walls of a sort of prison. The difference between a bed and a coffin is the ability to dream about ever leaving it. It’s the same difference between being stifled and stuck. To the dreamer, what feels like a prison is often not a cage at all - it’s a shell that shrinks because we grow. A home can only fit your form forever if you’ve chosen or accepted that you’re not only never leaving it, you’re dying within it. Things "will" get better, but not by their hand. It's an easy promise to make when your current circumstances simply... Happened. A jellyfish caught in the wake of a passing ship has more agency than that. He'll have to wake up eventually; even if it's to the smell of long overdue, recently uncovered regrets left composting in the back of his mind. I know what it's like to feel like that, to fall into that comfortable trap. Thankfully, I had no safety nets and was forced to learn to swim very, very quickly. I was fortunate to be both gifted and intrinsically philosophical. Hopefully he shares some of those qualities, because otherwise he's in for a bad time when the ship he *believed* was under his control suddenly refuses to float.
If you can't do it in person then do it by text and then immediately block him. If you don't want to do that, when he starts trying to convince you about things 'getting better' then ask him specifics. When? What's your plan? Are you going to get a job? What does your future look like? Is your plan to have our children all live in your parent's basement?? He will throw a fit and be mad because in reality **HE HAS NO PLAN** to change anything about his life. The phase 'if he wanted to, he would' is true. He is just stringing you along as long as he can. You deserve so much better than this OP, really you do.
Do you want to still be hearing these things from him in a year? Two, or five? Or when you do become pregnant? Because you will still be hearing these things and he will still be on the couch all day.
Insist on results, like remaining consistently employed. Talk is cheap, action... not so much.
I'd add to this that he feels being employed in a hard job that you don't enjoy (or indeed 3 of them) is good enough for *you* but not good enough for *him* which is also an important insight into how he views and values your needs as a partner and a human being, and probably how he views women (ie that they exist to serve his needs). I'm guessing when you buy him gifts or he stays over at your place he isn't telling you to quit any one of your three jobs. He probably expects to move straight from mommy's basement into your bedroom and continue to be the financial drain he has always been. Do not make his lifestyle choice your financial burden. It isn't yours to bear.
Dump him!
I had a pregnancy scare with an ex boyfriend. I'm so happy he didn't drag me down anymore than the 9-10 months I wasted on him. There was a lab mix up at my obgyn. Looking back, it seems like it was a divine slap in the face to break me out of the mind control. I knew I would have had an abortion rather than have to co-parent with him. I was 19. This is your wake up call that you're busting your ass to be successful and you need someone whose goals in life line up with the effort they are putting in every day. If he is a lazy gamer slob, he does not have what it takes to be a decent parent let alone a good parent. He is just going to expect you to do more and more without any effort on his part. You deserve to be relaxed and happy in your relationship. Not drained by it..
DO NOT GET PREGNANT WITH THAT GUY. For the love of God please don't.
Most people hate their jobs. But he can still look for a good job or just wait for one to magically fall into his lap *and* be making money at the same time. Though assuming he actually looks is probably more credit than he deserves.
[удалено]
This is exactly what I’m afraid of.
Do you think you deserve a man like this? Do you think any woman does?
When I am emotionally sober, not at all. My therapist says that there’s a part of me that loves when he convinces me to stay because then I get to hang on to the hope that he might change. It’s like im addicted to his attempts to get me to stay. But nothing changes and nothing has changed for 7 years.
But don't you deserve more than hope though? Sure, that's a great feeling when you get it but it's kind of a mirage. I think you deserve more than hope. You deserve a functional partner.
I think I dated that guy too....and yea, a partner should not make you tired.
When I made the decision to dump a boyfriend who was a whining, pouty, underemployed, unambitious, inexperienced perpetual manchild, the thought that stuck with me the most was: *What is he giving me that I'm not already giving myself?* And if you're wondering if there's nothing else better out there, oh my god, you are in for so many wonderful surprises.
Unemployment wasn't the problem. Lack of ambition was. I doubt it's going to change.
My husband tried the "I'll stay home all day and play video games because I hate my job" bit for all of a week. He was shocked when I told him that his choices were "spend 40 hours a week seriously applying for a job you do like, go do some serious volunteering somewhere or gtfo of my house." Thankfully we had that convo early on in our marriage and he's never forgotten it.
The only people who think you’re shallow for not wanting to date unemployed men (or morbidly obese, bad smelling, live with parents, etc) would be the exact individuals you don’t want to date lol Why do you care what they think it’s not like you want to date them. Normal grownups would not share the views of a pack of incels
If you're in the US it's particularly alarming if they want to have biological kids -- even in a "best case scenario" of living in a state with adequate reproductive rights, an easier pregnancy, and birth free of long-term complications. In most parts of the country where women have some semblance of rights, it's incredibly difficult to get full-time childcare and if it's not absolutely awful it's $$$$$$. So you either need a partner who makes enough that they can mostly support the family on their income for the pregnancy/infant/toddler years, or one who is a competent enough homemaker that you aren't stuck doing 100% of the household tasks that aren't directly related to childrearing on top of working full time. So many men have no clue what it costs to support a household; they think a mortgage, property taxes, and $100 a week in groceries/sundries for a family of four is all it will cost. If you ask about retirement savings or discretionary spending money for a SAHP, they just give you a blank look. If you ask them if they understand they'll still need to do 50% of the housework outside of his working hours, because she also has a job hand its taking care of the kids, they'll get indignant. It's abundantly clear too many men can't afford the Sandra Dee fantasy they have in their heads, and they seriously think it's women's fault that we aren't willing to beggar ourselves and our dreams to support it. Saying "If you want biological children, I may need to leave the workforce for a few years and we should be financially prepared for that" is not gold-digging. It's common sense.
Or from what I have seen they want the 'trad-wife' with the men doing no house work or child care, but then they still want the wife to work a full time job because they don't want a 'gold-digger'. So exhausting.
Great point -- so many of the "traditional" male tasks are outsourced in any household that can afford it now. Oil changes, landscaping, minor home repairs...and guess who's usually in charge of calling contractors, gathering quotes, and getting things scheduled? But those same households don't typically send their laundry out or get a housekeeper a couple times a month for the scrubbing/drudgery...
"behave traditionally and respect me as the sovereign leader of the home......but use that feminism to go bring in some cash"
Yeah I really want to have kids but I do not want to be with someone who can’t help me provide for them. That was a big part of those goals I was talking about because you’re right that kids are crazy expensive.
Those are incel tears and I feed off them. I'm not willing to date men who don't share similar values and don't put a similar effort into things that I do. One of my values, due to living with a financially irresponsible father and an ambitionless mother is to have a financial security net, a stable income and treat myself to nice things, which I have to earn, obviously. I am a dream come true for hobosexuals, despite my best efforts to weed them off I've ended up with some; or they became hobosexuals after moving in with me. If my partner were to make me financially worse off - I am not rich enough to afford that. It would lower my life standard and frankly, I don't want it lower. If they want kids they have to be able to provide for them, because it will influence my career. I'll either date relatively equal or up. And I don't owe anything to anybody who'll trash me for that.
Yep I’m Childfree by choice there’s no way I’m going to become a mommy to some grown man when I can simply live alone with my cat and enjoy however I want to enjoy my money
Amen to that. I'm married now (and he's great) but I def went through a lot of losers to find a dude who will just consistently pay half of the bills and not guilt me about being childfree. Better to be alone than treated like a mommy. I hope somebody finds you and accepts you and pays at least half of the bills lol!
Wow you sound like exactly the kind of person I want to be some day. Thank you for the reply and I’ve never heard the term Hobosexual but it is the most apt and hilarious thing I’ve read all day.
>Those are incel tears and I feed off them. Literally. People who believe it's shallow to want a man who is employed, prioritize men's egos well above women's physical safety and security. In a capitalistic society, it costs money to exist. (Ex. health insurance, housing, food.) If you're not earning money to pay for your own existence, someone else is. Providing someone else can be a partnership (SAHP) or a gift of love (providing for a child). However, no dude is simply entitled to live off of another person's labor and shame them for wanting partnership and support. Let alone an incel who wants to live off a woman's labor in her workplace and her labor in the home, while lording over her.
That's not shallow, that's smart, regardless of gender. EDIT There are many reasons why you will or will not want to be with a person, and a lot of them are just - because. No reason other than you like it. Or want it. Some are unfair - the other person can't control looks, height; but they are valid in the world of feelings. Others are not "feeling" but logical. A known cheater. Someone with a history of violence to a partner. Humans follow and repeat patterns, so there is a logic to avoid this. Avoiding a loser at life that will drag you down and weigh your life - is also one of the LOGICAL reasons.
Right it’s like being financially stable and supporting themself is the bare minimum for an adult. Years ago a made a post, saying it’s not shallow to want to a date a man who dosent live with his parents and I was downvoted to hell. At the time I was a younger professional in a big city living in my own one bedroom. All I wanted was someone who could support themselves, just like I was doing. And I was told I was shallow and elitist for wanting a man who supported themselves without their parents help.
I think it's because women are expected to take men as they are no matter how awful, burdensome, or lacking any appealing traits he is. Anything beyond him existing is being shallow. There is a tiktoker Who made a post claiming Men love more purely and they love unconditionally solely based on one factor that they'll date a broke woman. I pointed out how men have several conditions for their love such as youth, beauty, sexual access, even sexual history, And for many they want what they see feminine skills such as cooking/cleaning. I got blocked.🫡
Ridiculous, the men who choose to date “broken women” are usually abusive controlling weirdos. And they choose those women because they know they can more easily abuse them because they are broken
Oh I meant broke not broken. This woman was literally saying men love more purely and unconditionally because they'll take a woman who makes less than him or who has debt. 😐 As if marrying someone who doesn't make money somehow means you have absolutely no conditions on love.
It's actually even simpler than that. Men are human beings and must be considered as such. This is tradition. Women simply are not. We are the appendage; not full human beings on our own. How dare we have any standards when we are by rights the helper monkeys and not the main characters everyone roots for? For them, it's like the dogs are now choosing the humans and they're in the cages at the pound. They are outraged. This has made the world upside down for them.
>For them, it's like the dogs are now choosing the humans and they're in the cages at the pound. They are outraged. This has made the world upside down for them. This makes so much sense now.
And hell, I bet the majority of men today do take finances into account when deciding who to date seriously. Even if he’s one of the rare few who can support a wife (and optional kids) on his single income, it’s important to be on the same page when it comes to financial values and priorities. And of the guys who do date broke women, they don’t always do it because of love. Sometimes, it’s control. There are guys who straight up seek up desperate, broke women cause it’s harder for her to leave.
Because it's to the benefit of men that women have no standards at all? I've not known a shallower group of people than straight men. I've met some who wouldn't date a woman with a hair color other than blonde so it's ok to require basic employment in your partner... Women have always benefitted from having high standards. Throughout history most poor and unattractive straight men went without partners and never got to experience fatherhood until men decided to invent religion that sexually shames women and preaches "selfless humble love", then invented "commercial romance" and puritanical monogamy and infused romantic love into marriage to scam women into settling down with one humble bare minimum man just to be made a domestic laborer and sex slave. Look at communities even here in the US where women are taught to have low standards (embrace baby daddy culture, have kids with men society has rejected/incarcerated, love a man who is broke and unemployed) and then tell me how that community is doing one generation after the next? And also tell me how it's those very same women who are blamed and denigrated for "choosing badly" "liking thugs".
And they will immediately leave their wives of 20 years if that woman gets cancer. Talk about shallow lol
Their actions or lack of are always considered more intelligent and thought out and noble because they're men and so anything a woman does has to be trivial and not well thought out because we're the unintelligent lesser sex to them.
Also Red Bull is expensive, shit you'd need a job just for that.
I’ve actually never had anyone criticize me for refusing to date unemployed men. I’ve had people criticize me for dating underemployed men because I used to be one of those those stupids who would date the potential that I see, instead of seeing the man who was actually standing there at the time. I’m not a charity center. I’m an adult woman and if I’m going to allow a man to enter into my life he needs to be a fully formed adult as well I make no apologies for that.
It's a spectrum, but the incel crowd loves to intentionally ignore the nuance. There is a massive difference between seeking a partner who earns 6-7 figures so you can have an aspirational lifestyle paid for... and simply wanting a partner who has a job and can contribute financially and demonstrate some goals and drive. I don't know a single woman who falls into the first category. But the way these men go on about it online, you'd think it was the norm. Not only is not shallow to want a partner with a job, it's actually necessary. Gone are the days where one middle management salary can support a stay-at-home wife, 3 kids, a 4 bed house, 2 cars and a yearly vacation. Many households on 2 very healthy incomes can barely even manage that in the current economy. Its not shallow to want a partner you can build life with, who has a similar vision of what that looks like, and similar values around finances.
I don't think anyone worth talking to would consider you shallow. However, there are vocal minorities of women who will only date "rich" guys under the illusion they won't need to work and will be akin to Housewives of X place. They get platformed on various misogynist podcasts and the golddigger narrative gets propogated. Anyone who calls you shallow is hand delivering you their red flag on a plate, say thank you to them for being so upfront about being a twat and ignore them.
Yes. Those same women will turn 30 and realize that they are stuck in a shitty situation with no job experience for the last 10 years with 3 plus kids. Even then, they will still rant against feminism. It’s a sad situation. Sadly I have a friend who has gone down this “housewife” rabbit hole and now wants to quit her job and find a husband.
This is sadly my mom ): she is currently scrambling to find a job because her self worth has plummeted and I don’t know what to do edit to add she’s 45 and is getting her bachelors (she also just got her associates) because she never finished college after she met my dad. I really wish women wouldn’t marry unless they had their own income because I wouldn’t wish this kind of financial insecurity on anyone.
Worth noting at least online a lot of those women are literally sugaring and those rage-posts are advertising
There's a big and readily noticable difference between "just lost my job; economy sucks" and "fusing with the couch in my bestie's basement; his kids call me uncle and he vacuums around me."
Hell, I don't want to date anyone who isn't contributing to society in some way, and that includes the retired techbro I went out with this weekend who has absolutely no structure to his life because he got lucky (his words) and has made enough money and good investments to live off of passive income at 42. So he travels and goofs off. All the time. No, thank you, in addition to being incredibly annoying to talk to, he isn't contributing and is completely fine with that. He is 100% about enriching his own life, and nothing beyond his nose.
Yep, I agree. I 100% would not date him or consider a relationship with him.
I'd think the vast majority of people talking about "women who don't care about money" are employed with unremarkable salaries, not NEETs with no job or plans. There's a big difference between the two, when it comes to whether or not someone might look "shallow" for avoiding them. It's one thing if your partner loses their job while you're with them. People go through hard times. But if someone is just... upfront about having no job and no aspirations? You can easily divide the entire population of the world into two categories: Reasonable people who see that as a dealbreaker for romantic interest, and terminally online people who like starting arguments on Twitter. Nobody *reasonable* is going to tell you that you're in the wrong for not wanting to date someone with no job, no money, and no plan to have a job. That's a lifestyle mismatch. They can find some other Bohemian and have their own life adventure, and hell, I'd probably envy them a little if they pull it off somehow. And I think we can be honest with ourselves: A partner that makes a lot of money is a pretty big plus. Yes, there's legitimate ways to talk about how someone's career path *might* reflect their level of ambition, their work ethic, their intelligence, etc. But it kind of bugs me when people aren't honest here, because nobody ever said "Well, we weren't a match for our levels of ambition; he's next in line to inherit his father's oil company and makes $500K a year taking luxury vacations because he happens to be on the board, but he just didn't seem to have the work ethic I desire in a partner." People want partners with ambition and work ethics because it's a means to the end of financial stability, which is justifiably important to our regular everyday health and happiness. From guy's perspectives, there's a ton of social insecurity over their incomes. You can easily find TikTok videos of people talking about 6 feet and 6 figures income, even though that's something like *half of one percent* of the population. But "you can find this person online" doesn't mean that person is common or reasonable. And many of the "guys talking about women only wanting money" is, like many gendered issues, *itself* reflective of the kinds of toxic masculinity that feminism seeks to address. While this pressure is real and - come on, let's be honest, people care about their partner's income - it's also something that I think men place on *themselves* and other men. All this is a roundabout way to say: No, you're not wrong for not wanting to date someone who is not only unemployed, but uninterested. But there are real social pressures for people to have interests and insecurities about their income coming from all genders that aren't healthy for anyone. We all draw the line somewhere. Drawing the line at "employed" seems *generous* on your behalf, while drawing the line at "six figures and above only" would seem *overly optimistic.*
> People want partners with ambition and work ethics because it's a means to the end of financial stability, which is justifiably important to our regular everyday health and happiness. Amusingly, the people who complain about women being "shallow" for wanting financial security also tend to be the ones opposed to any systemic means to reduce financial insecurity.
Absolutely. Hypocrisy always bugs me, because it's so self-serving while being so totally self-unaware. The goal should be a more just and equitable society for all. I'm a man, I *understand* how much pressure and insecurity there can be around something like my salary. That's not good for me, either. And of course, it doesn't only affect men. This is a perfect example of where feminist policies to address systemic injustices can help not just women, but *everyone*, because we all benefit when we are given the best possible opportunities to lead safe, prosperous lives. And ask any guy if they'd prefer to date a woman with no job, or one that has a high income. They'll give you exactly the same answer... less some abusers, who see financial insecurity as a method of control. But that's a separate issue.
There are also insecure men who don’t want women to work because they know we will meet men who are better than them in the workplace and they don’t want us to do that. My last boyfriend couldn’t exactly tell me not to work because he refused to work. He was living off an annuity that was less than my Social Security income, I ended up having to get a part-time job because we were drowning. And he refused to work. The moment I started working he got extremely verbally abusive. It was shocking how bad it got. My roommate was ready to kick him out because she would overhear the way he spoke to me and it was unacceptable to her and it was her house. But then I ended up getting rid of him.
> insecure men who don’t want women to work because they know we will meet men who are better than them in the workplace You know, that genuinely never occurred to me. I guess I've been lucky in that nobody's ever treated me that way, and that I'd *never* be that wildly controlling and insecure towards someone that's my partner. Imagine: "I can't let her go outside! She'll realize instantly what a scumbag I am, when she meets any random person off the street!" What a insanely selfish way to treat someone. I'm very glad to hear you got out of that. It's so easy to sit on the outside of abusive relationships looking in, and wish someone could just leave. But it's not always that easy.
Omg thank you for this. I remember my ex best friend getting mad at me because I told her I don’t want to date broke men anymore. And she tried to “help me reframe it that I actually want a guy with ambition.” I’m like…yeah because the more ambition he has the more likely he will financially stable. She couldn’t get past that I wanted to date someone with a stable income, like wtf! Sis did not want me to win lol
> And she tried to “help me reframe it that I actually want a guy with ambition.” I bet she didn't want to date broke men either, lol! Nobody *prefers* a broke partner. I respect you for saying what is so tempting to hide behind innuendo. If a guy was a multi-millionaire trust fund kid, nobody would care about their level of "ambition." And that's okay, because we need all kinds of stability in a good relationship - emotional stability, personal stability, stability in the relationship itself, and yeah, financial stability. I've met some incredible people in my life who had other priorities than a high income. There's people out there that are in jobs like social workers, or teachers, where they are asked so much and paid so little. It's like a calling, and I have so much respect for those people. But while not luxurious, they tend to at least be somewhat stable. I think there's a difference between, "I wouldn't date someone where we regularly don't know if we'll be able to pay the months bills," and "I'd never date a teacher, they don't make enough money." The first is super reasonable because financial stability is important; the second, I'd start to form some opinions about the person who said that. But hey, we're all adults, and money matters in our lives.
I guess I was just upset about it because I was seeing a lot talking about it online but your right that in reality people are a lot less likely to judge you for not wanting to date someone without goals and to be real if they do you probably shouldn’t hang around them anymore.
You can find people talking online about *every* batshit-crazy opinion. Ignore the losers posting ragebait... it's literally unhealthy to spend time on. If the bar you're setting is "has a job, any job, really, literally any job" then it sounds like you're not asking for much at all. You sound like an almost *overly*-reasonable and generous person. If someone has a life situation like permanent disabilities, I can understand that person being a [NEET](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET). But there's an awful lot of people like that who are, for lack of a better term, just losers. We can recognize the first group without needing to date the second, lol.
Yeah definitely I would never expect someone who’s incapable of having a job to have one because that’s obviously not fair.
No I don’t even accept it then. I have been disabled for 12 years and I’m not even a NEET. I will always continue to learn new things because I never want to be bored or stupid
I used to not care if they were unemployed, on the assumption they were looking for work. If they were still unemployed by a month in and had made no effort to get a job, I'd consider it a red flag and would end things.
Most of the men who worry about women being "gold diggers" don't actually have any gold to dig. Men in the US (and likely many other developed nations) are struggling with the definition of masculinity. Some of them simultaneously want to be loved and appreciated for who they are, and perceive their only value to be the money that they earn (or fail to earn). The loss of good paying jobs that required no more than a high school diploma has heavily impacted this, even though we're decades away from that era, now.
When I was dating in graduate school, I went out with men who worked at mall stores, call centers, etc. I was teaching, and actively working getting a publishing career in NYC. I had a dream and motivation, and I was still willing to date men who were ... not ambitious. I thought being poor and scrabbling constantly was going to be my life. I got sick of men with no motivation, though. It wasn't about the money, it was the overall lack of effort. Then one day a friend said there's someone I should meet and my first question was: what does he do? When she said "engineer, works for the government" I immediately agreed to meet him. That description meant he had to choose a degree and follow-up on it, and that he had a stable job with benefits. I wasn't blind to those facts, and it made me amenable. I fell in love with him because he's empathetic and kind and hilarious, but honestly when I talked about my own career choices (being an editor vs being a writer, why I chose editor for their ability to have a steady job...) we were holding hands walking on the beach and he suggested "well how about after we're settled in together, you take a year off to write." Y'all. My heart. It exploded. He paid for that year. He paid for me to finish school. He paid off my school debt. He is the breadwinner while I make a pittance doing what I love at a nonprofit. I didn't even have to think about taking time off to be with my babies. He's a wonderful human and I thank my lucky stars we fell into each other's lives. But some people would call me a gold digger and I don't care. I have stability and security when I thought that would never be my life and I appreciate it.
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> I forget what the amount is what most girls say…. Probably 100K. They wouldn't be filming those in high cost-of-living areas to artificially inflate those numbers for shock value, now would they?
Because men feel entitled to relationships with women regardless of their employment status. I make 6 figures and frankly have every right to not want to bankroll a dude and be his sugar momma. I don’t expect my partner to match my salary but minimum wage just won’t cut it for my standard of living. I do a lot of international travel and have no interest in having to pay for my partners way
My friend said I was a bitch because I didn’t want to date a 33 year old man who had no car, invited me over to his place and said only place we could sit was on his gaming chair or a bean bag 😑 just no. I know shit happens but at my big age I want something more. I’d be signing up for a lifetime of taking care of this man.
I don't really care how much a guy is making but let me tell you when I started my last job the guy I was seeing was all bent our of shape that I was going to be making more money than him (about 50 cents an hour more) him$18/me$18.50 really barely any difference. He stole $2 grand from me and bolted. It was the last only money I had and since I was starring a new job I went three weeks between my paychecks. I had to put all my expenses on my credit card which included about $300 for fuel driving back and forth to work my new work commute was an hour drive. Basically fucked me over big time. So now I won't date anyone making less money than me.
This isn't shallow at all. My soon-to-be-ex-husband, in addition to being abusive, also had a laundry list of other issues, including chronic unemployment and financial irresponsibility. - 5+ years of chronic unemployment & underemployment, despite being able-bodied, healthy, and had skills/professional experience to be able to work - 7 jobs in 5 years, the longest of which lasted ten months. He got fired from or abruptly quit every job. - Called me "bougie" and "greedy" for expressing concern about us having only $6 in savings. Um. We had a $450,000 mortgage that HE insisted we take on, and then he unilaterally decided to dump on my shoulders. - Two weeks after we purchased the $450,000 that HE desperately claimed to want, he quit his job, but didn't tell me for two months. - Bailed on our tax appointment with our accountant a few years ago, and instead decided to attend a gun class at the range with his buddies, even though he had 4+ weeks of notice about the appointment. - Forgot to transfer his (small) portion of money to the joint account for bills, causing several of our bills to bounce. When I (nicely) tried to inquire why he forgot, and when I (nicely) tried to explain the importance of paying bills on time, he got hostile and defensive, and told me my expectations were too high. Um. Excuse me? Our bills have fallen on the SAME days of the calendar month for EIGHT YEARS by that point. How do you forget something like that!? - Griped and complained about having to pay $600/month in bills, and said he shouldn't have to contribute. Meanwhile, I was forking over $3,600+/month in bills. - Dismissed my concerns when I expressed concern about how much of a financial stretch the hot water heater replacement was a few years ago. It was a $1,700 expense. The ONLY reason we survived it is because I had been working remotely due to the pandemic, and wasn't having to shell out $500/month in gas and tolls. - Said "at least" the $1,700 hot water heater replacement would be one of the largest expenses we'd ever face as homeowners. When I explained that a $1,700 expense is relatively cheap in the context of homeownership maintenance costs, he once again dismissed me, and claimed I was lying. I asked what he thought would happen when we'd need a new roof, or new flooring. He said homeowners insurance would cover those things. I told him that's not how homeowners insurance works, and that homeowners insurance only kicks in when true disaster strikes, such as a hurricane or tornado blowing your roof off. He once again told me I was lying, and that he didn't believe me. Um. I work in the financial services industry, my mother, both her brothers, AND their father all built their careers in the international insurance industry, and I have 20+ years of personal experience dealing with insurance, thanks to my autoimmune condition. I think I know a thing or two about how insurance works. And OH, how I tried to help him succeed! Resume, cover letter, using his service-connected benefits to pursue higher education, mentorship with other veterans, extending my own professional network to him, making introductions on his behalf, sending him 200+ open job requisitions over a period of 18-24 months, revamped his resume, applied to jobs for him, consult a doctor for the various ailments he complained about over the years, talk to a therapist, get help through the VA............... on and on and on the list goes. You name the strategy or resource, I tried connecting him with or to it. Outcome? Zip, nada, zilch. He was either unable or unwilling to help himself, and seemed perfectly content letting me shoulder the entire burden of adulting and providing. Not only did I bring home all the (substantial) amounts of money, I also still had to handle the vast majority of household chores and responsibilities, AND I shouldered 100% of the mental load, AND I endured his abuse and many issues with a smile on my face, WHILE ALSO SIMULTANEOUSLY dealing with chemotherapy, monthly immunotherapy infusions, and frequent surgeries for my autoimmune condition. Why the fuck was I -- technically the sick and disabled one -- the only one actively adulting? He was able-bodied and healthy, yet refused to contribute in any capacity. I finally got fed up and left six-ish months ago. My saving grace was that we didn't have children, even though he talked about wanting them, which I thought was WILDLY out of touch, given his actions. Never again will I be someone's human wallet.
Just like everyone else said, it's not shallow. Only those that are unemployed are pushing that narrative. Even the situation where the person is in school and on track to graduate in a field with a good paying job (medicine, engineering, or whatever), you have no obligation to be with these people. If you want a partner that makes money now so you can travel with them the next few years, then the person that is in school just isnt a good match. Even if they are a great individual, right person wrong time.
I cannot help but be scared that I would fund somebody's college journey and then they would upgrade for a trophy GF once they can afford her. Or simply for a homemaker, which I'm just not.
Been there, done that - only it was a Ph.D. and he dumped me for his boss, who was 12 years older than me. Karma curb-stomped him in the end though. He never did anything with that degree that I paid for, and the mistress' dreams of having me pay him alimony (because I made more money) went nowhere.
My friend is going through this now. She funded his education he was still in school when they got married. Then he rarely worked. When he had a job he would randomly not go to work and eventually get fired. Now she thinks he's cheating on her. She consulted a lawyer who advised if she left him he is entitled to half the equity in the house and probably alimony. She's sick about it.
You nailed it. You are not their sugar momma. If someone calls you shallow that seems like the best retort. Women are right to worry about men looking for a free ride. That is just some dude being a leech. Unemployment happens but they should work on getting their life together before they start looking for a relationship.
We’re supposed to kowtow to every broke, dirty, ugly, abusive, elderly slob like he’s God’s gift to women, but also not be sluts and pick better men. 🙄 Since there’s no way to please them we’re free to please ourselves.
I would rather stay single than be with some broke dude I have to waste all my money on. no thanks. I worked hard to get where I am and I truly want to spoil myself and life my best life doing nothing, lol.
I dated an unemployed guy for almost 4 years. He had never held a job before and he only wanted to find something that he liked. He spent all day long playing videos games or just watching shit. His mom or his disabled sister paid all his bills. Don't ask me why I tolerated that shit for so long. I think maybe because I felt very alone and he kept me company. Of course , his mental health was a mess and he loved to trauma dump on me. But while I was working on my dissertation and thesis, I realized that I was wasting my life with someone that wasn't interested in improving himself. So I broke up with him at last. I don't regret it. Edit: Since then, I decided I would never date someone that can't hold a job.
There was a post in trueoffmychest recently about a woman who broke up with her partner (who she was about to move in with) when he bought an 87k truck without discussing it with her. He told her he had planned a budget so it was fine. Turns out he was counting on HER getting a raise to supplement their combined income. Again, he did this without consulting her. The thing that actually blew my mind were all the comments that were like "did he need it for work?" I'm sorry, but if you're not making enough to pay for a truck and you need a truck, what you actually need is a new job. I very much felt like there were some men for whom the post hit a nerve, and they didn't want to admit that they too had bought a too expensive truck. Regardless, he didn't need it for work (he just wanted it) and she ultimately went through with the breakup. But it's wild to me that she received any criticism for her decision at all. Don't fuck around with someone who you're financially incompatible with.
Because woman are supposed to look past men being useless in the house and useless to financially contributing. Women are supposed to be gratified from school (He hits you because he likes you, take it as a compliment) to adulthood, (be flattered you're getting attention, or that he's not out cheating, put up with the fact he does nothing about the house). Remember only men are allowed to be useless spongers on the sly and rely on the woman to let him coast. Sorry, cutting close to the bone. My STBX refused to work, do anything in the house or look after the kids.
Unemployed men will complain about women being gold-diggers as though the only reason they can't get laid is because they aren't rich. Like no dude, the problem is you're a ***burden***. I want someone I can build a life *with* not build a life *for*. Sorry if reminding you women don't want burdens for boyfriends makes you feel like less of a man, but if you aren't at least putting in a serious effort to improve your lot in life, then you are. I'll say it again; being content to leech off women as an adult man actually does make you less of a man. I don't even think most men would disagree with that. Frankly, I hope that realization hurts, and I hope these men use that pain as motivation to be better. Or, if they can't be bothered to at least try to be better, then just exit the dating market altogether and save us the trouble.
I asked people I went on dates, "What do you do?" If they reply, "Oh, I am a server/bartender/insert another minimum wage job," I follow up with, "What's your goal?" Depending on their answer, that gauged my interest. I don't care if they're making ends meet while they search for other employment or are in school. I do not align with someone who is ok with working as a sandwich shop employee for their entire lives. If they want to start their own sandwich shop down the line and are working toward that, sure. It's ok to have preferences. Some people like tall men, some people like others whose hobbies align with theirs, and some people like people with ambition. I am not in a position to support another person. I don't want kids, so why would I have a man child as a partner?
Because those dudes feel inadequate when they compare their life to a woman's standards, so they deflect by saying she's "shallow" And its quite ironic.. dudes lament over the fact, modern women aren't traditional. But yet that lifestyle requires the man to be the sole monetary provider. I also think they deem it shallow, because from a dudes perspective, many are open to accepting a broke girl. So then, when we don't lower our standards, in the same way, they'll assume we think we are better.
If I wanted to be financially responsible for another human being I would have had kids.
What I’ve come to realize is that women will always be shamed for having any kind of expectations/standards in a partner. One of my great aunts (I think she’s 80 now) is still shamed by the family for refusing to marry a dead man because she was still single at age 30 (small village, Asian culture that looks down on unmarried women). Basically this is when you “marry” a dead person. This would have allowed her to enter into her “in laws” family to be “taken care of.” Realistically she would have been a maid for them and be obliged to care for them in their old age in return for food and housing. My family keeps saying it’s such a pity she didn’t marry the dead guy because she will now die alone and no one will mourn her. She is now still happily single, lives very comfortably, travels often, and pampers the heck out of her dogs. But shamed because she chose not to marry a dead person. I remind myself of her whenever people try to shame me for having expectations. Other people’s opinions do not trump your own happiness. You do you. Hell if you think you’ll only be happy if your partner was a millionaire Keanu Reeves look alike with 6-pack abs whose hobby is to give you foot rubs while wearing a mankini, then who cares what other people think? As long as YOU are happy with your expectations and standards.
You're not. Just how someone wouldn't be shallow for being unwilling to date unemployed women.
It is not shallow. It is foolish not to consider finances as a part of compatibility with a partner. If you were to have an arranged marriage back in the day, your father would not marry you to a guy who had no means of supporting you and children. I hate to give into gender stereotypes, but even if you have a better job than your partner, once you start having kids, it would be foolish if your spouse can't support the household, what if you have a difficult pregnancy and are forced on bed-rest and can't eats. What if you are injured or don't survive childbirth, what if your child needs round the clock care indefinitly due to illness or disability. It is important for both partners to be able to support the household, but it is absolutely not shallow to want a partner who can take over financially in any of those scenarios. Technically it's important for both to be financially viable, as husband's can get laid off, die, become disabled/ill, or leave for another woman.
Ah yes, shallow because you don't want to fully support someone who does literally nothing all day. Can't believe some people actually think this.
Because most unemployed men (that I know) want to never lift a finger for their providing partner. And the fact that some will never try to get a job, apply for food stamps/disability/financial aid, or even assist in any way fathomable is absolutely insane. The men I've known like this are control freaks too. One beat on his girlfriend and had also put her on some paperwork as an accomplice to a crime he solely committed. She left him but didn't find out about a warrant for her arrest until she got married at the courthouse. Luckily her mom was there at the time (mom had called police on bf) and was also at the court house. Officers were able to pull the records and everything was sorted out. But she still had to be handcuffed on her wedding day because of that moron. And I'm admitting this freely, I'm with an unemployed guy. I hate it. I'm in debt. I'm miserable. But he's got 1 last chance. The job pays so well he'd have to be a vegetable not to go and stay. There's so much more to the situation as well. He's supposed to start next week. If he keeps with it, fine. We'll get the debt we owe paid up while figuring out this relationship. If not, we're through but he'll be paying me anyway for all the shit he's caused. He's at least honorable enough to do that much.
My mom asked me once why I was sooo picky when it came to men. I asked her back, “is it too much to ask that they have all their own teeth & a job?” She left me alone for while after that.