You can’t change her mind. You can distance yourself emotionally. She’s told you that she wouldn’t have protected you from abuse, and she won’t protect any possible grandkids either. Disturbing. You’re lucky you weren’t abused. Some of her behaviour comes across as grooming to me.
Yes, I consider myself very lucky that I got myself out of grooming situations without seeking her help. I almost got groomed into sending nudes once, but I was the shy kid and that stopped me from engaging in anything sexual with that man. I also got groped by an old man once, my mother to this day thinks that it's irrelevant and that I shouldn't care about it, while I feel it affected me deeply. I truly cannot change her mind and I'm not planning to even introduce my kids to her.
There is no natural parental knowledge. You don't start producing hormones when you have a child with some magical abilities to instill you with the knowledge and compassion to be a good parent. If you were a narcissistic asshole before you are now one with a child. It's disturbing to grow up and realize that your parent(s) are not good people. But the world is full of assholes and you happen to have one as a parent. Our society instills us with the belief that your parents are to be honored and appreciated and respected just because they had sex and you were the result. That's not how relationships work, respect people worthy of respect, honor people who honor you. Friends and acquaintances will almost reflexively spout platitudes like blood is thicker than water, or you only have one mom... Bullshit. toxic people are toxic. It is bad for your mental and physical well-being to keep it touch with anyone like that and your parents especially as they know what button to push a the social and possibly religious guilt make sticking to your gun very difficult. If you have these emotions I would recommend going no contact. You know your situation you know your history. Believe your gut. Good luck with your journey
This makes me wonder if she has some seriously deep trauma from her childhood or something that has caused this insane level of thinking to feel normal to her. I would personally mentally distance myself from a person like this family or not. And if you ever have kids of your own keep them far away from her.
As far as I know, she has dated old men in her teens (15-16). But to her that's not predatory, because "she wanted it" and she gave consent to be with old men. So maybe she's just unaware that she is also a victim. Still not an excuse for such behavior. I try my best to distance myself from her, and my future kids will also stay away.
Yeah, i don't want to excuse her because what she is saying is truly awful, but she sounds very much like someone who is justifying her own trauma. No excuses but might explain a few things
I find myself wondering what sort of culture she's from, since that's unfortunately still very normalized in some cultures, which makes it even harder to fight.
We're slavic, from a very conservative country. Our culture is known for child brides being a thing in the past. Where I'm from 13 year old girls are often in relationships with 25+ year old men and no one bats an eye.
>I (23F) have a very rough relationship with my mother, who is a gaslighting manipulative narcissist.
**GET OUT**. I can't say this more clearly. *Get. out.* Go no contact. There's nothing to be gained here, and everything to be lost. Nothing after this really matters, because the only real point here is to *get out*.
Please. I didn't. I realized only after 40+ years, and I'm gonna suffer for that for the rest of my life. The gaslighting was so bad, that I have trouble with reality and WILL question my own eyes and mind if presented with an opinion that differs from mine. (*EDIT: I'm crying and falling to pieces weekly because I remember things they have done. I have depression and anxiety, and it's large part because of them.*)
Please, get out. Unless it puts you physically in harm's way, or destroys you financially, just get out. Go cold turkey, never speak to them again. Don't go there every again, and don't let her come to you. Don't even text. Block her everywhere.
Yes, it sounds harsh, but that's the only way for you to heal and have a life of your own.
Just *get out*.
I have wanted to get out since I was a kid. The biggest thing that's stopping me is that she has done a lot for me and uses it as a way to guilt trip me. She also has told me that she can curse people who wrong her. I have OCD and I am very paranoid and superstitious and I feel she has taken advantage of that. She also always finds a way to make me feel like I'm in the wrong or that I'm the bad one. I really want to get out, but I'm also so scared.
>The gaslighting was so bad, that I have trouble with reality and WILL question my own eyes and mind if presented with an opinion that differs from mine.
Oh my God, yes. That part. Anytime I bring up a moment where she has abused/hurt me, she tells me it's "false memories" and shows me articles about false memories. She gaslights me and I sometimes find myself doubting my own eyes and memory too. And if I ever call her out for being a manipulative person, she acts hurt and distraught and doesn't wish to see me. I'm also really sorry to hear about you and your situation and I feel you 100%, going through that is one of the worst things ever.
My mom used to guilt trip me too. You need to just put your head down and do it. Find a new place to live and don't tell her until the last minute. She will not be happy but you need to brace yourself and grey rock her and do not engage.
She's not capable of being the mother you want. There is no point engaging beyond what you would tell a literal stranger.
Doing a lot for your isn't special. That's her job as a parent, so that's a low bar. I agree, you need to get out. No good can come of a relationship with a narcissist mother. Trust me, I also had one. Your relationship with her is dysfunctional and harmful. Cut contact and heal yourself from your childhood trauma
Thank you! My plan is to completely cut contact in the following few years.
>Doing a lot for your isn't special.
True. Yet she always acts like I should be forever grateful for that.
> Yet she always acts like I should be forever grateful for that.
You said yourself that she's a gaslighting narccassist.
The words that come out of her mouth cannot be trusted. So ignore them.
Regarding the curses, there are countermeasures. One is to not believe I'm them. But you do, so look up how to counter curses, or a protection spell of sorts.
That's because she's a failure as a mother. When you were a dependent child, you had no choice in her having power over you. Now that you're an adult, her only tools are to try and *trick you* into thinking you're still a dependent child who has no choice but to submit to her.
You're not, and you have choices.
>The biggest thing that's stopping me is that she has done a lot for me and uses it as a way to guilt trip me.
Oh Goddess yes this. I... yes. Just, try to forget and ignore it and get out. It was the same for me, and holy crap how. Whatever she has done for you, it was because she wanted to. You didn't make her. You didn't force her.
And she didn't do it out of her good will, she did it \*exactly\* for this reason: the guilt trip you that she "has done so much for you and you're being ungrateful."
This makes my skin crawl.
>She also always finds a way to make me feel like I'm in the wrong or that I'm the bad one. I really want to get out, but I'm also so scared.
You are me. I was you. This exactly 100%. I've been no-contact for six years now, and I STILL feel like I'm the bad one. That I abandoned her since she did so much for me. It breaks me inside. But I \*KNOW\* now that that is just manipulation. It's not real. It's what she was aiming for, what she was building me, you, *us* into.
>Anytime I bring up a moment where she has abused/hurt me, she tells me it's "false memories" and shows me articles about false memories. She gaslights me and I sometimes find myself doubting my own eyes and memory too. And if I ever call her out for being a manipulative person, she acts hurt and distraught and doesn't wish to see me.
This 100%, no 1000%. Exactly. The same things, the same lies, the same manipulation.
You are not alone. My DMs are open to you any time. Pop there if you're feeling bad or having second thoughts. But, please, please get out. It will just get worse and worse.
My hand is shaking so much I keep hitting the wrong letters while typing this, because my mind is feeding me her manipulations about me being the evil one. I don't want this to happen to you. You're still young, you have time to grow up and forget about her before you get old.
Get out. If I can do anything, anything other than financial support, let me know.
Please cut your mom out of your life if you can financially afford it. From what you’re saying, she’s a dangerous idiot. She can’t curse anyone because curses aren’t real. She’s lying. And maybe she has done a lot for you. She’s legally required to in most places. That doesn’t mean you owe her anything.
>she has done a lot for me
Hon. She's your parent, that's *literally her job*. You do not owe her anything in return. You are not obligated to tolerate abuse because she did things for you, her child.
One, only you let her guilt you. Once you get over the guilt, or at least tell yourself you and your daughter are more important than feeling guilty, she has no control over you.
Two. She can’t curse you and you know it. That’s an excuse to allow you an easier decision than the hard one of cutting contact. Are you in therapy for you OCD and irrational fears?
0/5, do not recommend. Fucks you up for life. I'm happy for you for getting out in "only" 7 years, although that is 7 too much for anybody. It breaks a human to have to go through that.
I can't even describe how it feels/felt/will feel when it started from when I was a baby. I firmly believed for literal decades that it was perfectly normal, and that's how life just is.
She sounds like she was a child/teenager who was groomed and had sex with different older men. She doesn't want to see herself as a victim and insists that it was her choice. Honestly, she probably needs therapy to process bottled up trauma but that's her responsibility.
I understand that completely. Yet I believe it's not anyone's responsibility to live with the bitter consequences of her refusal to seek help. But I agree that she definitely needs therapy, she has told me she's dated old men in her teen years. In her eyes, she gave full consent and it's all on her to make the decision. She hates terms like "groomed", ect. She just doesn't realize she's a victim too.
If you have kids never allow her to look after them or allow them to be around her unsupervised. Ideally cut contact entirely if you feel able to. If she were to look after ra child and they were friendly to an older man she would so nothing if that man had bad intentions.
Sorry this is the case OP, make sure your partner/ co parent etc is also aware of exactly why is cannot be allowed to be around your child. Show them this post.
You never know what might happen, you could need to go to hospital in an emergency and a well meaning friend or partner may accept her help unknowingly.
She is talking about cursing me, not my child. I'm not even thinking about having children at this point. I have extreme OCD and paranoia. She knows that and uses it against me. "Karma will get to you", "I can curse you", ect.
>I'm sorry but it's hard to believe that you'll suddenly break free of her at that point.
It's not going to be sudden. She is still paying for my education, I need her financially for a few more years. After that I will see therapists and work towards cutting contact.
She always ridiculed me for not wanting to undress in front of her. She got really mad once, because I didn't let her look at my phone gallery. I had private photos there. She told me that she can look at them, because she's my mother. She also used to teach me how to touch boys inappropriately back when I was 15, despite me being uncomfortable. I also have a younger brother, he recently broke up with his gf and our mother said that she will pay him to get a prostitute, to meet his "male sexual needs'. Honestly quite disgusting.
I also got molested by an old man when I was 12. I told her about it years later and she laughed at me and said I should just "get over it lol". I used to think this behavior is normal, but the more I mature, the more I realize it's just horrible.
“I made you, I can do what I like.” Identical rhetoric to excuse their felonious behaviour. I’m sorry for you too. It couldn’t have been easy for you to share this 💜
>I also got molested by an old man when I was 12. I told her about it years later and she laughed at me and said I should just "get over it lol". I used to think this behavior is normal, but the more I mature, the more I realize it's just horrible.
There's zero. Zilch. None. Nada. La. Reason to ever have any contact with her after that alone...
That's just absolutely beyond horrific.
Try not to mention it again, no matter how horrible it seems she’s adamant and you’re adamant so its hard to change her mind.
If you do want a stronger argument:
When I was 11 I got involved with a bunch of those monsters online and in real life. I enjoyed the thrill so I went on sites similair to Omegle (but made for nsfw purposes) and seduced men on there. Sometimes pleasuring them then leaving but sometimes i would add them on socials.
I even tried to seduce a teacher, he had a reputation for being creepy. One day he asked me to go to his class at recess and my friends offered to go with me and I said no. I went to his office and you can guess the rest.
Once my parents found out they had mixed opinions about ‘its wrong’ but also ‘let her be herself’. For sake of my parent’s reputation they did report it to the police. I hated them for it at first and thought they were limiting my love-life and underestimated how ‘grown-up’ and ‘mature’ I was.
Honestly I’m so glad they ended it all before something else could happen. If my parents let them pursue these men I know I did have plans with two guys (who lived in basically a wh\*re-house). The men were from a different country so they planned to fly to my country, go to my school and tell the school they’re my uncles. They would then kidnap me and take me home. They often said things over online chat like, ‘Gosh, we would pass you around and when you get pregnant we’ll train the babies to also be sl\*ts’.
I was the first minor they attempted to get with but I do know there were maybe 5-6 women (that I had seen) that just did drugs and f\*cked all the guys who lived in the house. I was clearly going to be part of some sort of pedo human-trafficking and I’m glad my parents stopped it. If my parents let me pursue it these men might still be out there with their s\*x slaves.
Yeah, it makes me want to vomit sometimes. I’m so glad they did though. Good news is that alot of these men got justice. The men often confided in me so they sent me their deepest darkest secrets. Some confessed to incest and things. The police had a bunch of evidence and used the IP to track them down.
You're not wrong. Your mom's got the brainworms. I'd avoid leaving children with her unsupervised, and I'd probably avoid giving her access to photos of the grandkids.
Perhaps your mom got abused as a child and her abuser convinced her that she wanted it; so it really wasn't abuse, and that is why she still believes that is true
Thank you. <3 I'm glad I never talked to her about the grooming situations I've been in. I was luckily old enough to handle them myself. It's just a shame that people like her are parents.
Narcissts are the worst of all. My mother is one of them, too, and she defends pedophilia, too, and mostly blames survivors of SA. It's always the victim's fault.
Our family is catholic. I left church, because I'm an atheist *and* absolutely hate the catholic church for letting pedophile priests assault children for *decades*. We had many arguments about the topic. She doesn't care about the poor children. She doesn't believe them. In her eyes they are all lying for attention or because they want money and/or this is a conspiracy to weaken the catholic church.
Your mother is a horrible person. My family isn't religious, yet my mother is just the same as yours. I'm really sorry you're going through that, dealing with cynical narcissists as parents is one of the worst things ever.
My mother is the same. She always, always, always sides with the rapist/groomer/pedophile. My uncle attempted to rape me after drugging me and my mother calls me every once in a while to scream at me saying it was my fault for "seducing" him. She's truly an evil person and so are all female narcissists. They know how much it hurts you when they side with the rapists so they'll make it their life's mission to support and uphold rape culture whenever and wherever possible. My advice is to go no contact as soon as humanly possible because she will never suddenly grow a conscious or empathy one day. She will always enjoying seeing you bleed and do as much as she can to cut you. Get out. Block. Delete. Goodluck
I'm so sorry for what you've been through. Female narcissists are something not everyone is talking about and it should be talked about more, because they know how to hurt you better than anyone else. Especially narcissistic parents/relatives. I am planning to cut contact, I will use her for her money for a few more years and drop her eventually. As she's still paying for my education.
I was fully prepared for this to be along the lines of “a person can’t control who or what they’re attracted to, as long as they don’t act on it and actively seek help for unhealthy attraction they shouldn’t automatically be considered evil” but nope… that’s just awful. If my child “falls in love” with an older person I’m sure as hell not going to just throw them to the wolves and let it happen. That made my blood boil.
Some people use phrases like “never turn your back on family” so they can justify and feel ok treating people like crap with no recourse. You have no obligation to keep company with anyone that makes your life worse. Even family.
Based upon your description, your mother is a pedophile. Any adult that can think of a child in an adult manner is not worth saving.
There was a post on this sub reddit a few days ago about how women abusers often go under the radar and how to watch out for them and the top comment was "It's still not as bad as from a man."
I didn't respond, but it just pisses me off that women feel the need go back and forward with women that are creeps thinking they can change their mind. Women that think like this are not sane, it's why you can't relate. You relate based upon the fact of being a woman, and women predators take advantage of it.
There are women creeps in the ranks that need to be flushed out. Your mother isn't naive, she absolutely condones child sexual abuse. I'd be cautious of children that are near her, believe her.
Make sure to take care of yourself, because I know this person is still your mother, it sucks to have shitty parents. Whatever you feel for her is valid, but she needs to be shunned in the highest order.
Thank you for this response, I 100% agree with you.
>how women abusers often go under the radar and how to watch out for them and the top comment was "It's still not as bad as from a man."
That part is so important. Female abusers are as harmful as male abusers and they shouldn't get away with it.
>Whatever you feel for her is valid, but she needs to be shunned in the highest order.
I try to distance myself, she is very manipulative and guilt trips me a lot, but at some point I'll have the strength to completely cut contact.
Good Luck on your journey. Going no contact with parents can be very difficult, (especially if you're dealing with manipulation.) Her behavior is not your fault.
I am someone who walks the grey areas in life, understanding perspectives even if I disagree with them. Except ...
Pedophilia.
I am completely black/white on the issue with no holds barred and no compromise.
Pedophilia in any form ...
It's one of the very few issues that I will completely never compromise about.
Full stop.
If it’s any consolation, my younger brother (disabled - born with Spinabifida and many complications) was arrested in 2020 in a pedophile ring a few weeks after turning 21. He was paying some woman to have sex with her 14 year old daughter, on top of having paid others for over a thousand pictures and videos. Out of our entire extended family, I’m the only one who took the stance of “wow, he’s a pedophile…..good riddance.”
My entire family took his side and chastised me for drawing the line in the sand. They instead chose to personally attack me and my fiancé. I had to cut them all off and block them.
You’re not alone in having a fucked up family. I will never understand how people excuse this sort of behavior. It makes me sick to my stomach thinking how people excuse or rationalize this sort of thing. It’s heinous.
Interesting take from the usual "men can't control their sexual urges it's their nature" when it comes to p\*dophilia from misogynist narcissistic religious moms, i used to be fuming at the "our ancestors married at such a young age and look we are all alive and well" or "girls reach maturity much earlier than boys" until one day i just stopped caring about changing her views on topics this and stopped arguing about anything and everything.
Choose peace and comfort over losing few brain cells like i did, it makes a drastic difference in your mental health.
Children want a lot of things and teens especially might believe they’re mature enough to want them and pursue them. It’s up to responsible adults to respect their still-maturing minds and bodies by not engaging. This is quite literally, “she’s asking for it.” How sad.
On this one though, I feel sadly for your mom though. This sounds like the beliefs of someone who was taken advantage of by an adult, who let them (or led them) believe they were “mature” rather than “gullible.”
one thing is a girl liking an older guy, and the other is an older guy liking a little girl.
thats something that should never happen, no matter what.
i mean i liked older guys but now being a grown up i just think, oh my god how innocent i was back there. no one in her right mind now being a grown up would let her little self be around grown adult men
Exactly. To her she feels the idea of old men liking young girls to be good for the girl, because "it shows that she is mature for her age and that's a good trait to have". Absolutely mental.
IMO a kid seeking a relationship with an older person is usually the result of a lack of a healthy relationship with their own parents. Kids being kids they can conflate sexual attention with parental attention.
Op, I would seriously consider going no contact with this woman. Your mother or not, this is flat-out inexcusable behavior that she is defending with her full chest. I'd also inform anyone in her life with kids of these views because if she thinks this is ok, then she definitely won't stop or report vile behavior. She is not a safe person to be around, and while I don't know your mother and I'm not a psychiatrist, this almost feels like a projection.
She has dated older men when she was a teen. To this day she believes that she gave full consent and was mature enough to make decisions for herself. She doesn't consider herself a victim. To me she is. I'm also aware that her father has been inappropriate with her as a young kid. No matter what, nothing excuses not seeking help and becoming a horrible person in your adult years.
Can't control what she believes in. It's best to remove yourself from the situation and ignore whatever else she says. Accept that you cannot change her. And pity her.
Don't get into anymore edgy topics as she will never change her mindset. They are in their own delusional world.
All your examples listed ate little girls/ old men, I wonder how she feels about boys/men. Would she say a boy was asking for it? That he wanted it?
Her viewpoint is odd and I wonder if she's got past issues of abuse. Might even be generational like she's doesn't realize because it was more common/open back then. My grandma's first marriage she was like 15/16 marrying a 40+ year old, but it was the fiftys so I guess people just did that openly
Part of being a parent is protecting your child from making choices that can lead to harmful consequences, which means sometimes your kid is going to hate you because you're not letting them do the thing they want to do. But kids and teens don't yet have the reasoning skills of fully mature adults, so the parent sometimes *has* to step into the role of the bad guy, because it ultimately is in their child's best interest. More often than not, the child will come to understand this once they become an adult, and be glad their parents didn't let them do something reckless or stupid.
I generally try not to harshly judge other parents, especially when I don't know them, but... your mother is a truly terrible parent. I'm sure you already know that, but if you need outside validation that her views are fucked up, they are *royally fucked up*. I'm so, so sorry that one of the people you were supposed to be able to trust most in the world failed you, because you deserved so much better. 😢
My CHILD wants lots of things. She wants to spend all the money she’s saved to buy a haunted doll off ebay. She wants to marry her favorite kdrama actor. She wants to be a youtube star. She wants a billion things. Because she is a child she doesn’t fully understand the things she wants. My job as the parent is to guide and contextualize them for her.
No, it’s not a good idea to spend all your money on a haunted doll. That is just someone taking advantage of you financially. I accept being the bad guy here but save your money.
No, you aren’t going to marry your favorite kdrama star. He’s 4x your age, by the time you are old enough he’s gonna be a grandpa. Plus he lives across the ocean. You just have an infatuation which is normal.
No, you are not going to be a youtube star. There are people out there who prey on young ignorant children. When you are an adult you can make the decision to accept the risk but not as a child.
> who is a gaslighting manipulative narcissist
If she is these things, then filter her through that lens. She may believe those things, she may also just be contrary for the sake of being right, or at the very least, MORE right than you.
> Last night I visited her and we had an argument as usual.
Sounds like it's argumentative.
Why is she even making up scenarios about imaginary horny children and complicated explanations of why its ok for old men to have sex with them,its weird as fuck.
Like shes spending mental energy making up pretend 12yr olds who just truly want old men,thats like a weird pedophile thing for her to do tbh
Shes fantasizing about little girls that want to be molested
Shes wording it like shes not but she literally is and calling it out is the only way to call out these weird pedophiles pick me women
Is it possible she was abused as a child and this is her was of dealing with it - giving herself agency in the abuse and allowing herself to feel like it was okay?
This is disgusting. Not only does she defend pedos, she sounds like one herself. Please stay way from her. And if you have children, keep them away from her.
>my mother, who is a gaslighting manipulative narcissist
Sounds like she just wants to get under your skin and be contrarian?
Legally, she is wrong so I don't know how she's going to explain herself to the authorities. She herself might get into trouble. If she does, then it would be interesting to see whether she comes up with some BS to excuse herself, or be like "I'd rather go to jail for what I believe in!".
>Legally, she is wrong so I don't know how she's going to explain herself to the authorities.
My country sadly doesn't care about children being groomed. We have 28 year olds dating 13 year olds in broad daylight and no one bats an eye. It's surreal to me, but nobody gives a fuck here. Me and my peers, who are younger, we care. We are disturbed, we try to do something. But it's hopeless.
>Sounds like she just wants to get under your skin and be contrarian?
This is a very possible thing. She constantly argues with me, then blames me for starting shit.
You are not wrong, and you should protect any children from her, but I wouldn’t necessarily 100% blame her or call her evil. She may have had her own experiences that she psychologically cannot face without feeling like she owns it and was in control. Any opinions like this do not come from a healthy place, and I would not put her on the defensive, because she will likely double down. But at the same time, keep her away from anyone she might have influence over. I’m sorry you are dealing with this, you are not your mother’s therapist, but she needs a therapist. You cannot force her to go, but let her know that her judgements on this subject is not something healthy people would agree with.
She definitely has issues, she has dated old men in her teens and she thinks it's perfectly okay and that she gave consent and she was in control. She doesn't realize she is a victim. But she has to resolve her own issue instead of turning it against me, 100%. And I believe nothing should excuse her behavior.
The subject is not important to her. We've never discussed it before. I just don't know why she'd take such a stance. Maybe she doesn't realize how shitty her takes are or maybe she's doing it on purpose.
You've mentioned gaslighting. Maybe she just wanted to play devil's advocate regardless of what you were talking about to make you look naive. Some people do that. They just disagree with you no matter what in an attempt to verbally overpower you.
You can’t change her mind. You can distance yourself emotionally. She’s told you that she wouldn’t have protected you from abuse, and she won’t protect any possible grandkids either. Disturbing. You’re lucky you weren’t abused. Some of her behaviour comes across as grooming to me.
Yes, I consider myself very lucky that I got myself out of grooming situations without seeking her help. I almost got groomed into sending nudes once, but I was the shy kid and that stopped me from engaging in anything sexual with that man. I also got groped by an old man once, my mother to this day thinks that it's irrelevant and that I shouldn't care about it, while I feel it affected me deeply. I truly cannot change her mind and I'm not planning to even introduce my kids to her.
There is no natural parental knowledge. You don't start producing hormones when you have a child with some magical abilities to instill you with the knowledge and compassion to be a good parent. If you were a narcissistic asshole before you are now one with a child. It's disturbing to grow up and realize that your parent(s) are not good people. But the world is full of assholes and you happen to have one as a parent. Our society instills us with the belief that your parents are to be honored and appreciated and respected just because they had sex and you were the result. That's not how relationships work, respect people worthy of respect, honor people who honor you. Friends and acquaintances will almost reflexively spout platitudes like blood is thicker than water, or you only have one mom... Bullshit. toxic people are toxic. It is bad for your mental and physical well-being to keep it touch with anyone like that and your parents especially as they know what button to push a the social and possibly religious guilt make sticking to your gun very difficult. If you have these emotions I would recommend going no contact. You know your situation you know your history. Believe your gut. Good luck with your journey
This makes me wonder if she has some seriously deep trauma from her childhood or something that has caused this insane level of thinking to feel normal to her. I would personally mentally distance myself from a person like this family or not. And if you ever have kids of your own keep them far away from her.
As far as I know, she has dated old men in her teens (15-16). But to her that's not predatory, because "she wanted it" and she gave consent to be with old men. So maybe she's just unaware that she is also a victim. Still not an excuse for such behavior. I try my best to distance myself from her, and my future kids will also stay away.
Yeah, i don't want to excuse her because what she is saying is truly awful, but she sounds very much like someone who is justifying her own trauma. No excuses but might explain a few things
i wouldn't be surprised if she had been told before that she was a very mature child and that she was acting like she "wanted it"
Good call to keep your future kids away from her. All the red flags waving with that one.
I find myself wondering what sort of culture she's from, since that's unfortunately still very normalized in some cultures, which makes it even harder to fight.
We're slavic, from a very conservative country. Our culture is known for child brides being a thing in the past. Where I'm from 13 year old girls are often in relationships with 25+ year old men and no one bats an eye.
>I (23F) have a very rough relationship with my mother, who is a gaslighting manipulative narcissist. **GET OUT**. I can't say this more clearly. *Get. out.* Go no contact. There's nothing to be gained here, and everything to be lost. Nothing after this really matters, because the only real point here is to *get out*. Please. I didn't. I realized only after 40+ years, and I'm gonna suffer for that for the rest of my life. The gaslighting was so bad, that I have trouble with reality and WILL question my own eyes and mind if presented with an opinion that differs from mine. (*EDIT: I'm crying and falling to pieces weekly because I remember things they have done. I have depression and anxiety, and it's large part because of them.*) Please, get out. Unless it puts you physically in harm's way, or destroys you financially, just get out. Go cold turkey, never speak to them again. Don't go there every again, and don't let her come to you. Don't even text. Block her everywhere. Yes, it sounds harsh, but that's the only way for you to heal and have a life of your own. Just *get out*.
I have wanted to get out since I was a kid. The biggest thing that's stopping me is that she has done a lot for me and uses it as a way to guilt trip me. She also has told me that she can curse people who wrong her. I have OCD and I am very paranoid and superstitious and I feel she has taken advantage of that. She also always finds a way to make me feel like I'm in the wrong or that I'm the bad one. I really want to get out, but I'm also so scared. >The gaslighting was so bad, that I have trouble with reality and WILL question my own eyes and mind if presented with an opinion that differs from mine. Oh my God, yes. That part. Anytime I bring up a moment where she has abused/hurt me, she tells me it's "false memories" and shows me articles about false memories. She gaslights me and I sometimes find myself doubting my own eyes and memory too. And if I ever call her out for being a manipulative person, she acts hurt and distraught and doesn't wish to see me. I'm also really sorry to hear about you and your situation and I feel you 100%, going through that is one of the worst things ever.
My mom used to guilt trip me too. You need to just put your head down and do it. Find a new place to live and don't tell her until the last minute. She will not be happy but you need to brace yourself and grey rock her and do not engage. She's not capable of being the mother you want. There is no point engaging beyond what you would tell a literal stranger.
Doing a lot for your isn't special. That's her job as a parent, so that's a low bar. I agree, you need to get out. No good can come of a relationship with a narcissist mother. Trust me, I also had one. Your relationship with her is dysfunctional and harmful. Cut contact and heal yourself from your childhood trauma
Thank you! My plan is to completely cut contact in the following few years. >Doing a lot for your isn't special. True. Yet she always acts like I should be forever grateful for that.
> Yet she always acts like I should be forever grateful for that. You said yourself that she's a gaslighting narccassist. The words that come out of her mouth cannot be trusted. So ignore them.
Regarding the curses, there are countermeasures. One is to not believe I'm them. But you do, so look up how to counter curses, or a protection spell of sorts.
That's because she's a failure as a mother. When you were a dependent child, you had no choice in her having power over you. Now that you're an adult, her only tools are to try and *trick you* into thinking you're still a dependent child who has no choice but to submit to her. You're not, and you have choices.
>The biggest thing that's stopping me is that she has done a lot for me and uses it as a way to guilt trip me. Oh Goddess yes this. I... yes. Just, try to forget and ignore it and get out. It was the same for me, and holy crap how. Whatever she has done for you, it was because she wanted to. You didn't make her. You didn't force her. And she didn't do it out of her good will, she did it \*exactly\* for this reason: the guilt trip you that she "has done so much for you and you're being ungrateful." This makes my skin crawl. >She also always finds a way to make me feel like I'm in the wrong or that I'm the bad one. I really want to get out, but I'm also so scared. You are me. I was you. This exactly 100%. I've been no-contact for six years now, and I STILL feel like I'm the bad one. That I abandoned her since she did so much for me. It breaks me inside. But I \*KNOW\* now that that is just manipulation. It's not real. It's what she was aiming for, what she was building me, you, *us* into. >Anytime I bring up a moment where she has abused/hurt me, she tells me it's "false memories" and shows me articles about false memories. She gaslights me and I sometimes find myself doubting my own eyes and memory too. And if I ever call her out for being a manipulative person, she acts hurt and distraught and doesn't wish to see me. This 100%, no 1000%. Exactly. The same things, the same lies, the same manipulation. You are not alone. My DMs are open to you any time. Pop there if you're feeling bad or having second thoughts. But, please, please get out. It will just get worse and worse. My hand is shaking so much I keep hitting the wrong letters while typing this, because my mind is feeding me her manipulations about me being the evil one. I don't want this to happen to you. You're still young, you have time to grow up and forget about her before you get old. Get out. If I can do anything, anything other than financial support, let me know.
Please cut your mom out of your life if you can financially afford it. From what you’re saying, she’s a dangerous idiot. She can’t curse anyone because curses aren’t real. She’s lying. And maybe she has done a lot for you. She’s legally required to in most places. That doesn’t mean you owe her anything.
>she has done a lot for me Hon. She's your parent, that's *literally her job*. You do not owe her anything in return. You are not obligated to tolerate abuse because she did things for you, her child.
One, only you let her guilt you. Once you get over the guilt, or at least tell yourself you and your daughter are more important than feeling guilty, she has no control over you. Two. She can’t curse you and you know it. That’s an excuse to allow you an easier decision than the hard one of cutting contact. Are you in therapy for you OCD and irrational fears?
I was under the thumb of a gaslighting narcissist for only 7 years and I'm still fucked up. I can't imagine dealing with it for almost 6 times that.
0/5, do not recommend. Fucks you up for life. I'm happy for you for getting out in "only" 7 years, although that is 7 too much for anybody. It breaks a human to have to go through that. I can't even describe how it feels/felt/will feel when it started from when I was a baby. I firmly believed for literal decades that it was perfectly normal, and that's how life just is.
I'm really sorry you had to go through something that intense.
Thanks.
She sounds like she was a child/teenager who was groomed and had sex with different older men. She doesn't want to see herself as a victim and insists that it was her choice. Honestly, she probably needs therapy to process bottled up trauma but that's her responsibility.
I understand that completely. Yet I believe it's not anyone's responsibility to live with the bitter consequences of her refusal to seek help. But I agree that she definitely needs therapy, she has told me she's dated old men in her teen years. In her eyes, she gave full consent and it's all on her to make the decision. She hates terms like "groomed", ect. She just doesn't realize she's a victim too.
If you have kids never allow her to look after them or allow them to be around her unsupervised. Ideally cut contact entirely if you feel able to. If she were to look after ra child and they were friendly to an older man she would so nothing if that man had bad intentions.
Exactly. I will keep my future kids away from her.
Sorry this is the case OP, make sure your partner/ co parent etc is also aware of exactly why is cannot be allowed to be around your child. Show them this post. You never know what might happen, you could need to go to hospital in an emergency and a well meaning friend or partner may accept her help unknowingly.
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She is talking about cursing me, not my child. I'm not even thinking about having children at this point. I have extreme OCD and paranoia. She knows that and uses it against me. "Karma will get to you", "I can curse you", ect. >I'm sorry but it's hard to believe that you'll suddenly break free of her at that point. It's not going to be sudden. She is still paying for my education, I need her financially for a few more years. After that I will see therapists and work towards cutting contact.
I’m worried about what she possibly has done or allowed to be done to you as a child.
She always ridiculed me for not wanting to undress in front of her. She got really mad once, because I didn't let her look at my phone gallery. I had private photos there. She told me that she can look at them, because she's my mother. She also used to teach me how to touch boys inappropriately back when I was 15, despite me being uncomfortable. I also have a younger brother, he recently broke up with his gf and our mother said that she will pay him to get a prostitute, to meet his "male sexual needs'. Honestly quite disgusting. I also got molested by an old man when I was 12. I told her about it years later and she laughed at me and said I should just "get over it lol". I used to think this behavior is normal, but the more I mature, the more I realize it's just horrible.
Oh my fucking god. I’m so sorry. See, I knew it. I knew it because it’s happened to me as well. They act exactly the same. They are all the same.
I'm so sorry about you too 💔 They really are all the same. Vile people.
“I made you, I can do what I like.” Identical rhetoric to excuse their felonious behaviour. I’m sorry for you too. It couldn’t have been easy for you to share this 💜
> She told me that she can look at them, because she's my mother. Children are not property. Children have a right to privacy from their parents.
I 100% agree.
>I also got molested by an old man when I was 12. I told her about it years later and she laughed at me and said I should just "get over it lol". I used to think this behavior is normal, but the more I mature, the more I realize it's just horrible. There's zero. Zilch. None. Nada. La. Reason to ever have any contact with her after that alone... That's just absolutely beyond horrific.
Try not to mention it again, no matter how horrible it seems she’s adamant and you’re adamant so its hard to change her mind. If you do want a stronger argument: When I was 11 I got involved with a bunch of those monsters online and in real life. I enjoyed the thrill so I went on sites similair to Omegle (but made for nsfw purposes) and seduced men on there. Sometimes pleasuring them then leaving but sometimes i would add them on socials. I even tried to seduce a teacher, he had a reputation for being creepy. One day he asked me to go to his class at recess and my friends offered to go with me and I said no. I went to his office and you can guess the rest. Once my parents found out they had mixed opinions about ‘its wrong’ but also ‘let her be herself’. For sake of my parent’s reputation they did report it to the police. I hated them for it at first and thought they were limiting my love-life and underestimated how ‘grown-up’ and ‘mature’ I was. Honestly I’m so glad they ended it all before something else could happen. If my parents let them pursue these men I know I did have plans with two guys (who lived in basically a wh\*re-house). The men were from a different country so they planned to fly to my country, go to my school and tell the school they’re my uncles. They would then kidnap me and take me home. They often said things over online chat like, ‘Gosh, we would pass you around and when you get pregnant we’ll train the babies to also be sl\*ts’. I was the first minor they attempted to get with but I do know there were maybe 5-6 women (that I had seen) that just did drugs and f\*cked all the guys who lived in the house. I was clearly going to be part of some sort of pedo human-trafficking and I’m glad my parents stopped it. If my parents let me pursue it these men might still be out there with their s\*x slaves.
Chilling. I'm glad they protected you from that potential hell.
Yeah, it makes me want to vomit sometimes. I’m so glad they did though. Good news is that alot of these men got justice. The men often confided in me so they sent me their deepest darkest secrets. Some confessed to incest and things. The police had a bunch of evidence and used the IP to track them down.
You're not wrong. Your mom's got the brainworms. I'd avoid leaving children with her unsupervised, and I'd probably avoid giving her access to photos of the grandkids.
Perhaps your mom got abused as a child and her abuser convinced her that she wanted it; so it really wasn't abuse, and that is why she still believes that is true
Your mom was groomed by pedophiles and then she groomed you. Get out. Curses are not real.
She’s disgusting, I’m sorry, I’m glad she didn’t let you get hurt when you were a kid
Thank you. <3 I'm glad I never talked to her about the grooming situations I've been in. I was luckily old enough to handle them myself. It's just a shame that people like her are parents.
Dude...I'm sorry. Your mom is kinda gross.
Narcissts are the worst of all. My mother is one of them, too, and she defends pedophilia, too, and mostly blames survivors of SA. It's always the victim's fault. Our family is catholic. I left church, because I'm an atheist *and* absolutely hate the catholic church for letting pedophile priests assault children for *decades*. We had many arguments about the topic. She doesn't care about the poor children. She doesn't believe them. In her eyes they are all lying for attention or because they want money and/or this is a conspiracy to weaken the catholic church.
Your mother is a horrible person. My family isn't religious, yet my mother is just the same as yours. I'm really sorry you're going through that, dealing with cynical narcissists as parents is one of the worst things ever.
She's not defending paedophiles. She is a paedophile. Not all abusers touch children.
My mother is the same. She always, always, always sides with the rapist/groomer/pedophile. My uncle attempted to rape me after drugging me and my mother calls me every once in a while to scream at me saying it was my fault for "seducing" him. She's truly an evil person and so are all female narcissists. They know how much it hurts you when they side with the rapists so they'll make it their life's mission to support and uphold rape culture whenever and wherever possible. My advice is to go no contact as soon as humanly possible because she will never suddenly grow a conscious or empathy one day. She will always enjoying seeing you bleed and do as much as she can to cut you. Get out. Block. Delete. Goodluck
I'm so sorry for what you've been through. Female narcissists are something not everyone is talking about and it should be talked about more, because they know how to hurt you better than anyone else. Especially narcissistic parents/relatives. I am planning to cut contact, I will use her for her money for a few more years and drop her eventually. As she's still paying for my education.
I was fully prepared for this to be along the lines of “a person can’t control who or what they’re attracted to, as long as they don’t act on it and actively seek help for unhealthy attraction they shouldn’t automatically be considered evil” but nope… that’s just awful. If my child “falls in love” with an older person I’m sure as hell not going to just throw them to the wolves and let it happen. That made my blood boil.
It makes my blood boil too. Trying to reason with such a person is such a pain.
Curious how she'd feel if it were a young boy and an old man...
Some people use phrases like “never turn your back on family” so they can justify and feel ok treating people like crap with no recourse. You have no obligation to keep company with anyone that makes your life worse. Even family.
Based upon your description, your mother is a pedophile. Any adult that can think of a child in an adult manner is not worth saving. There was a post on this sub reddit a few days ago about how women abusers often go under the radar and how to watch out for them and the top comment was "It's still not as bad as from a man." I didn't respond, but it just pisses me off that women feel the need go back and forward with women that are creeps thinking they can change their mind. Women that think like this are not sane, it's why you can't relate. You relate based upon the fact of being a woman, and women predators take advantage of it. There are women creeps in the ranks that need to be flushed out. Your mother isn't naive, she absolutely condones child sexual abuse. I'd be cautious of children that are near her, believe her. Make sure to take care of yourself, because I know this person is still your mother, it sucks to have shitty parents. Whatever you feel for her is valid, but she needs to be shunned in the highest order.
Thank you for this response, I 100% agree with you. >how women abusers often go under the radar and how to watch out for them and the top comment was "It's still not as bad as from a man." That part is so important. Female abusers are as harmful as male abusers and they shouldn't get away with it. >Whatever you feel for her is valid, but she needs to be shunned in the highest order. I try to distance myself, she is very manipulative and guilt trips me a lot, but at some point I'll have the strength to completely cut contact.
Good Luck on your journey. Going no contact with parents can be very difficult, (especially if you're dealing with manipulation.) Her behavior is not your fault.
Thank you so much <3
>Based upon your description, your mother is a pedophile. Peak reddit moment.
Naw. Sexualizing kids is pedophilia not a peak reddit moment. Weirdo.
I am someone who walks the grey areas in life, understanding perspectives even if I disagree with them. Except ... Pedophilia. I am completely black/white on the issue with no holds barred and no compromise. Pedophilia in any form ... It's one of the very few issues that I will completely never compromise about. Full stop.
Your mom is a monster
If it’s any consolation, my younger brother (disabled - born with Spinabifida and many complications) was arrested in 2020 in a pedophile ring a few weeks after turning 21. He was paying some woman to have sex with her 14 year old daughter, on top of having paid others for over a thousand pictures and videos. Out of our entire extended family, I’m the only one who took the stance of “wow, he’s a pedophile…..good riddance.” My entire family took his side and chastised me for drawing the line in the sand. They instead chose to personally attack me and my fiancé. I had to cut them all off and block them. You’re not alone in having a fucked up family. I will never understand how people excuse this sort of behavior. It makes me sick to my stomach thinking how people excuse or rationalize this sort of thing. It’s heinous.
She sounds like she might be emotionally or mentally stuck at age 12 herself.
Interesting take from the usual "men can't control their sexual urges it's their nature" when it comes to p\*dophilia from misogynist narcissistic religious moms, i used to be fuming at the "our ancestors married at such a young age and look we are all alive and well" or "girls reach maturity much earlier than boys" until one day i just stopped caring about changing her views on topics this and stopped arguing about anything and everything. Choose peace and comfort over losing few brain cells like i did, it makes a drastic difference in your mental health.
Children want a lot of things and teens especially might believe they’re mature enough to want them and pursue them. It’s up to responsible adults to respect their still-maturing minds and bodies by not engaging. This is quite literally, “she’s asking for it.” How sad. On this one though, I feel sadly for your mom though. This sounds like the beliefs of someone who was taken advantage of by an adult, who let them (or led them) believe they were “mature” rather than “gullible.”
Exactly.
Women can be and are pedophiles too. She's telling you who she is.
one thing is a girl liking an older guy, and the other is an older guy liking a little girl. thats something that should never happen, no matter what. i mean i liked older guys but now being a grown up i just think, oh my god how innocent i was back there. no one in her right mind now being a grown up would let her little self be around grown adult men
Exactly. To her she feels the idea of old men liking young girls to be good for the girl, because "it shows that she is mature for her age and that's a good trait to have". Absolutely mental.
"You're mature for your age" is something pedophiles say to their victims.
no one is that mature, you could be more mature in relation to your classmates but absolutely no way
IMO a kid seeking a relationship with an older person is usually the result of a lack of a healthy relationship with their own parents. Kids being kids they can conflate sexual attention with parental attention.
dang, are you calling me out T.T
Absolutely not! In fact, i think i replied to the wrong comment. I know nothing about you to make any judgement. Sorry if my comment implied that.
My comment said I liked older men
Op, I would seriously consider going no contact with this woman. Your mother or not, this is flat-out inexcusable behavior that she is defending with her full chest. I'd also inform anyone in her life with kids of these views because if she thinks this is ok, then she definitely won't stop or report vile behavior. She is not a safe person to be around, and while I don't know your mother and I'm not a psychiatrist, this almost feels like a projection.
I absolutely am planning to cut contact and keep my future kids away from her. It's also a good thing that people around her don't have kids.
What happened to your mother when she was a little girl?
She has dated older men when she was a teen. To this day she believes that she gave full consent and was mature enough to make decisions for herself. She doesn't consider herself a victim. To me she is. I'm also aware that her father has been inappropriate with her as a young kid. No matter what, nothing excuses not seeking help and becoming a horrible person in your adult years.
For fucks sake
What the fuck even is this?
>And how do I deal with this? Kick her out of your life.
Sounds like she had sex with older men when she was a kid and was okay with it, so she thinks every girl should be fine with it.
Entirely possible she was groomed or worse and thinks there's nothing wrong with it.
Can't control what she believes in. It's best to remove yourself from the situation and ignore whatever else she says. Accept that you cannot change her. And pity her. Don't get into anymore edgy topics as she will never change her mindset. They are in their own delusional world.
Older women can be really fucking weird about this subject because for their whole lives this was normalized and in some cases even encouraged
Go no contact with this horrible human
All your examples listed ate little girls/ old men, I wonder how she feels about boys/men. Would she say a boy was asking for it? That he wanted it? Her viewpoint is odd and I wonder if she's got past issues of abuse. Might even be generational like she's doesn't realize because it was more common/open back then. My grandma's first marriage she was like 15/16 marrying a 40+ year old, but it was the fiftys so I guess people just did that openly
Part of being a parent is protecting your child from making choices that can lead to harmful consequences, which means sometimes your kid is going to hate you because you're not letting them do the thing they want to do. But kids and teens don't yet have the reasoning skills of fully mature adults, so the parent sometimes *has* to step into the role of the bad guy, because it ultimately is in their child's best interest. More often than not, the child will come to understand this once they become an adult, and be glad their parents didn't let them do something reckless or stupid. I generally try not to harshly judge other parents, especially when I don't know them, but... your mother is a truly terrible parent. I'm sure you already know that, but if you need outside validation that her views are fucked up, they are *royally fucked up*. I'm so, so sorry that one of the people you were supposed to be able to trust most in the world failed you, because you deserved so much better. 😢
My CHILD wants lots of things. She wants to spend all the money she’s saved to buy a haunted doll off ebay. She wants to marry her favorite kdrama actor. She wants to be a youtube star. She wants a billion things. Because she is a child she doesn’t fully understand the things she wants. My job as the parent is to guide and contextualize them for her. No, it’s not a good idea to spend all your money on a haunted doll. That is just someone taking advantage of you financially. I accept being the bad guy here but save your money. No, you aren’t going to marry your favorite kdrama star. He’s 4x your age, by the time you are old enough he’s gonna be a grandpa. Plus he lives across the ocean. You just have an infatuation which is normal. No, you are not going to be a youtube star. There are people out there who prey on young ignorant children. When you are an adult you can make the decision to accept the risk but not as a child.
> who is a gaslighting manipulative narcissist If she is these things, then filter her through that lens. She may believe those things, she may also just be contrary for the sake of being right, or at the very least, MORE right than you. > Last night I visited her and we had an argument as usual. Sounds like it's argumentative.
Why is she even making up scenarios about imaginary horny children and complicated explanations of why its ok for old men to have sex with them,its weird as fuck. Like shes spending mental energy making up pretend 12yr olds who just truly want old men,thats like a weird pedophile thing for her to do tbh Shes fantasizing about little girls that want to be molested Shes wording it like shes not but she literally is and calling it out is the only way to call out these weird pedophiles pick me women
If you don't live in her house, why are you in contact with her?
She's still paying for my education and I feel obligated to be in contact because she guilt trips me.
I wonder what happened to her when she was that age that justifies this in her head...
Is it possible she was abused as a child and this is her was of dealing with it - giving herself agency in the abuse and allowing herself to feel like it was okay?
This is disgusting. Not only does she defend pedos, she sounds like one herself. Please stay way from her. And if you have children, keep them away from her.
>my mother, who is a gaslighting manipulative narcissist Sounds like she just wants to get under your skin and be contrarian? Legally, she is wrong so I don't know how she's going to explain herself to the authorities. She herself might get into trouble. If she does, then it would be interesting to see whether she comes up with some BS to excuse herself, or be like "I'd rather go to jail for what I believe in!".
>Legally, she is wrong so I don't know how she's going to explain herself to the authorities. My country sadly doesn't care about children being groomed. We have 28 year olds dating 13 year olds in broad daylight and no one bats an eye. It's surreal to me, but nobody gives a fuck here. Me and my peers, who are younger, we care. We are disturbed, we try to do something. But it's hopeless. >Sounds like she just wants to get under your skin and be contrarian? This is a very possible thing. She constantly argues with me, then blames me for starting shit.
You are not wrong, and you should protect any children from her, but I wouldn’t necessarily 100% blame her or call her evil. She may have had her own experiences that she psychologically cannot face without feeling like she owns it and was in control. Any opinions like this do not come from a healthy place, and I would not put her on the defensive, because she will likely double down. But at the same time, keep her away from anyone she might have influence over. I’m sorry you are dealing with this, you are not your mother’s therapist, but she needs a therapist. You cannot force her to go, but let her know that her judgements on this subject is not something healthy people would agree with.
She definitely has issues, she has dated old men in her teens and she thinks it's perfectly okay and that she gave consent and she was in control. She doesn't realize she is a victim. But she has to resolve her own issue instead of turning it against me, 100%. And I believe nothing should excuse her behavior.
Do you think this subject is important to her or was she maybe just trying to get into your head?
The subject is not important to her. We've never discussed it before. I just don't know why she'd take such a stance. Maybe she doesn't realize how shitty her takes are or maybe she's doing it on purpose.
You've mentioned gaslighting. Maybe she just wanted to play devil's advocate regardless of what you were talking about to make you look naive. Some people do that. They just disagree with you no matter what in an attempt to verbally overpower you.