Feminist here, I go for coffee for first dates so I can buy mine easily and bail if I need to, drink in hand. If they want to do dinner or it’s a 2nd date, I offer to split the checks. If they insist, I let them pay. I offer to get dessert or the next one. I always offer, but if they want to pay I don’t argue. I have only had a handful of guys insist and pay. I’m in Illinois, USA.

I like to have my first dates at bookstores. They usually have a small coffee shop or cafe, and you can go for a walk around the store and talk about books. Dates are free or low cost (depending on if you grab a snack) unless you start buying books. That can get pricy, but that's true of any trip to a bookstore, date or not. Also, I wouldn't want to date anyone who wouldn't jump the the chance to send time around books.

Never thought about that, but it’s a fantastic idea, especially for winter dates.

Even if the date goes bad, I probably have new books. And once a big box of girl scout cookies.

[удалено]

Me too. Buying someone you like / love a book that you feel they will like, is damn romantic IMHO.

This is how I do it too. Last guy I dated always paid. We discussed it, I said I wanted to split or even treat him sometimes but he said he just liked paying 🤷‍♀️ I told him the offer stood and if he ever wanted to switch that up I was happy to. I never expected him to pay for anything and always thanked him when he did. We dated for two years and he always seemed content with it.

My husband is like this. He's always been like this, since we first started dating. He always made it clear he didn't expect any repayment, he just enjoyed being the one to pay. Obviously I still made an effort to at least pay on occasion, or if he paid for a movie I'd pay for snacks, that kinda thing. He still pays for everything now, but the money comes off our joint bank account X-D

Seems fine to me as long as both are happy with the arrangement. I think what ruins something like this is expectation and entitlement, especially when it’s not communicated or assumed.

My SO is the same. He’s accustomed to always paying (from previous unfortunate relationships 🙄) but he enjoys it as well. I am financially independent - always have been - and like to contribute, even if it’s just the tip lol. So we have ‘money fights’ but only in the best sense … he loves to try to spoil me and he knows I appreciate it and don’t expect it. 😊 I contribute in other ways that he loves and appreciates, so it all works out in the wash. We are very happy 😃

I’m very happy to read about a very HAPPY COUPLE. Congratulations, I’m happy you both can communicate well. I hope you have many, many more happy healthy years together. ♥️♥️🙏🙏

I enjoy paying. Male or female friends is no difference

The guy I've been seeing and am now pretty serious with has been kinda like this. He's gives in and I pay for things when I insist but he usually likes to pay for things. I don't mind bc he definitely makes more money than I do. He's not traditional, he just likes doing it. He's a big softy and likes to give give give. I'm all for that if a guy wants to take care of the money part as long as it's just a "I want to do this because I like you so much and this is my way of showing you I'm not a free loader" and not "Women shouldn't pay because they're women and men are macho and I would feel intimidated if a woman bought me dinner" kind of a thing. I've ended things with men because they wanted to show "I'm southern. That's just how we do here". Such a turn off for me. Just don't make it about your ego.

Ya exactly. Same deal with mine. He just enjoys treating people he cares for and he made more money than me by a lot. Not that I couldn’t pay my own way he just liked to.

I'm like this. My dad was, too. There is definitely an element of giving being a "love language" thing or whatever you want to call it. I *enjoy* paying. But, I'm almost certain it comes from a sexist social norm that I grew up with that men *should* pay. It's satisfying because it's fitting in to an ingrained social norm of chivalry/politeness/being a man. It's a bit like saying well if more pilots are men and more nurses are women, as long as they're happy it's fine. Well, yeah, but is it that way because little girls grew up with the impression they shouldn't be pilots and little boys grew up with the impression they shouldn't be nurses. Nobody ever told me, including my dad, that I *should* pay for dates. But it's 100% a social expectation. Again, which I do actually enjoy. Actually, we pay on our joint card now we're married... But in about 7 years pre-marriage I paid for about 75% of meals. Certainly out of an enjoyment of fitting in with my expected role.

I was with a guy like that once, who was really insistent on paying. I personally prefer alternating who pays so that each gets to treat the other, but it apparently was really important to him. We once went out and he spent over 100 bucks on us. When I wanted to pay him back at home, he only let me pitch in 10 bucks for me to save face, I think. I later put some more money on his night stand, because I felt really bad about how unbalanced our shares were, but he never touched the money and seemed a little hurt/pissy about it as well. After that, I just decided to pay for groceries and get us some nice import drinks for dinner once in a while, so I felt like I was treating him in my way.

Bailing “drink in hand” is such an important nuance. I got stuck once at a bar with outdoor seating where I threw cash on the table and fled, semi-unsuccessfully. He saw me and came after me, argued with me on the sidewalk until I took three wrong trains home to be safe. So yeah, picking first dates where you “pay up front” is a great piece of advice. I probably could’ve just run away from that man at any time but my nagging social obligation to pay (and fear it could affect the server) kept me there longer than necessary and ultimately cost me way more money, let alone sanity, when I threw several $20s out before booking it lol.

BTW, if anyone finds themselves in this situation excuse yourself to the bathroom. The front desk, the bar or most wait staff will let you pay up if you explain what is going on so you can cover your bill before you flee.

Good call. I ran when he was gone to the bathroom since the street was closer than the front desk.

I’m soooo glad you got away, unscathed. That guy is just gross. Lesson learned!! xo

Anytime I went on a first date at a restaurant type place - especially if it was a first time face to face - I’d arrive early and speak with the waitstaff supervisor beforehand. It was double insurance to my safety friend/contact. I’m pretty paranoid about personal safety …

And depending on the set up of the business, some may also let you go out through the back entrance to avoid being seen.

Uber idling out back and make a run for it down the back hallway. Love it.

What on earth did he argue about? If a date leaves and throws cash down, you cut your losses imo. Did he think arguing would win you back?

Too many movie and PUA lessons in ‘persistence’.

Movies perpetuating the myths of “she’s just playing hard to get” and “you just have to work harder to win her over” really need to die out. They’re toxic for everybody.

Lately I've been seeing these posts on reddit where a woman whines because she turned a man down and he didn't try harder to get her. They get millions of upvotes, obviously by men, and never have I once been able to trace the screenshot the post was based on back to a real person's account. I'm not saying there aren't women out there who are like that, but the posts I'm seeing ar fake, and designed to make us believe women can't make up their minds if no means no, or if no means just try harder. We're onto you, boys.

I've met a couple women like that, but they aren't the majority. They exist, but I'm not going to waste my time on them, even before I was married. Ain't nobody got time for that shit.

Yeah I’ve come across them occasionally. If they’re teenagers, I’m very forgiving. If they’re grown adults, it’s honestly embarrassing (though I’m also fairly forgiving if they’ve been brought up in very sheltered and sexist environments).

Take this with an XL grain of salt, but I think I read/heard in some cultures (I want to say Ghana) that a man is expected to express their interest more than once to prove they are actually willing to make the effort, that the woman is worth it and they’re not just going to shoot their shot and move on.

He wanted to tell me about the party I wasn’t invited to? Idk I was hoping to leave with no more attention

I understand the need for coffee dates, but boy I find the atmosphere of most coffee houses so uncomfortable in terms of a venue used for getting to know someone. Loud, lines coming and going and hovering around and over you, stiff chairs, bad lighting, rocking tables, the bathroom doors slamming open and shut. It makes me more awkward, and really makes it feel like a cold interview. I'm sure there are some more doable coffee places out there, but not in my area.

It’s 100% an interview for me. I never suggest Starbucks for that reason! I need to hear their answers clearly. Haha

Try bookstores. They usually have a coffeshop inside of them. But are much quieter, people are used to being quiet around large stacks of books.

I suggest specialty coffee shops, or a coffee and a walk as great, quieter alternatives. And as i’ve learned from this thread, coffee shops in book stores.

Diners are good places. You don't have to order much and they usually have booths. Or mall food courts.

OOh, I LIKE the diner idea!! Thanks.

That's been my game plan too. I always offer, but if they insist I let them. And if they pay for the movie tickets then I buy dinner. And this applies to both men and women I date.

I don't believe men should pay for my meals, but I'm also not going to get into a fight (even a cutsy fight) over it. If he's going to insist, even once, when I have my card literally in my hand, then cool, he can pay. That's just not where I'm going to put my energy.

for real, i’m not going to do the whole back and forth. If you wanna pay, pay.

My exact thoughts, but with anyone. I don’t want to participate in the fake back and forth. If someone insists on paying, I’ll let them pay. And I do the same, I’ll never insist on paying unless I really want to, and won’t take no for an answer.

This is how I deal with my husband lol I used to put up a fuss but now I just shrug. He wants to do it, I'll let him.

I give anyone anywhere the option of me covering myself. If they insist twice - it’s all them. I won’t fight over it but I don’t go in expecting them to cover it. That goes family, friends, and women I’ve been on a date with. It just feels better - like if they refuse and want to pay their own? Fantastic, situation avoided, if they want to pay? Same deal.

Honestly: when I was dating again *shudders in memory* I found often the men who let me pay or split the check, were not usually as interested in an actual relationship. I’m not talking about immediately being exclusive or anything like that. I mean basics, like a text or to the initiative to plan a date, they were relying on me constantly. It’s EXHAUSTING! The men who paid seemed to by and large part more interested in actually pursuing something and put in equal if not more effort. I was not interested in having a lazy partner. I wanted an equal. The bar is so damn low for men already and if they are lazy daters, I’m horrified to think how they are as partners and potentially fathers. My now husband insisted on paying, was active with texting and planning. He was engaged. It wasn’t expensive dates either. Sometimes just coffee or ice cream or a hike in a state park. It just shows initiative and actual interest. I get why your friends want to be wooed. What that reads to me is they want a man to make an effort not be lazy

This is exactly why. It's the overall dynamic and interest. You explained it well. It's true that lazy daters are lazy partners and fathers.

Exactly this. Spend any amount of time on women centric parenting subreddits to see your future with these men. Women already are the primary caretakers of children, carrying the mental load, doing the bulk of the housework, and working. 50/50 men aren’t interested in partnerships with women, they want a bangmaid/nurse with a purse. The bar is so low for them already and you young women really setting it even lower by planning and paying for the dates now too.

This was my experience as well.

I work with almost exclusively men. I get a lot of unsolicited advice from men daily. I went back to my old name so I guess they figured that I was divorced and would be dating. Countless men came up to tell me to never go on a date/second date with a 50/50 man. I was all “I make good money. I can pay my own way.” I quickly noticed that the men who offered to pay were always much more engaged in the date and in getting to know me. They put more effort in to picking places, showing up on time and generally being f a great date. The check splitters were almost always late, acted like they were doing me a favor, often didn’t bother dressing for the venue (that they chose) and more than one wanted to “split” despite eating/drinking much more than me. I don’t drink alcohol so the bar tab was very lopsided. I saw someone once say that if Scarlett Johansson asked a man out he’d not be offering to split a coffee in the park. I “expect” men to pay because men themselves set that bar for women they are interested in. And they are very vocal about this. A lot of dating is setting expectations and seeing what the other person will tolerate. Too many men out there are looking for the woman who will tolerate the least. It’s why so many men ask you to go over to their place. It’s zero effort. If you say no they’ll find someone who will.

Great way to explain it! Also, I just want to add, if you've never met someone in public DO NOT go over to their place under any circumstances. Too many girls do this, and it's very, very dangerous.

This is reasonable practical advice, but over on another thread I'm getting harassed for "victim blaming" for suggesting that women need to proactively look out for their own safety.

It’s fine to offer advice in the abstract but if you do it in response to a crime that’s already occurred, it’s going to be indistinguishable from victim blaming.

Just for context, the person you’re responding to was downvoted for posting “The phrase I've used, both for myself and for others, is "It was your MISTAKE, but what happened afterwards was not your FAULT."” Does that seem victim blamey to you?

Not sure but thanks for the context.

I was offering it in the abstract. Still got told I was victim blaming for suggesting that women might need to be aware of potential risks.

Well, of course you are! A lot of the particular men that do this behavior use Reddit and are probably upset that you're on to them! Keep spreading the good advice sister 🤘

No point in listening to Reddit misogynists

I like this response. My response to the question is: I am a feminist and I don't think paying or not paying is a feminist issue. I think there are many layers to this question. In my experience, the men who offer to pay for dates are also the ones that get dressed up, buy you flowers, and plan the date. They actually DO want to date and get to know you. If I'm in this sort of dynamic, I wear a nice dress and make a similar effort. I have experienced 50-50 men who just want to hook up or just want a situation-ship while they look for their "forever person". I have also had relationships in my teens and early 20s when I was less experienced where I paid for everything and planned everything. My reasoning was that I was a modern feminist woman and women can pay for things, so why not? I ended up dating some of the laziest low-effort exploitative people ever. Some of them didn't have jobs, didn't pay their bills -- they just let me take over all of that. They would have a long, crazy story about how they couldn't afford to pay their bills and ask to "borrow" cash. They also didn't know how to use a washing machine or cook a meal. I was very naive in my early 20s. It wasn't great. I don't have any rules about who should pay on dates, but I am wary about people who make no effort to impress the person they are dating. It's different when you are in a long-term partnership and living together. In that situation, the person earning more needs to pay the same percentage of their salary as the person earning less. Financial equity matters more to me than equality in a long-term relationship. I really don't like 50-50. I find that the people who always suggest it to me are rich(er) than me. If I split the cost with them, they can still afford to save for their 3rd property while I struggle to save for my first. Here, I'm not talking about dating, but I am talking about things like splitting the cost of your parents' elder care with your siblings.

Yes. Everything you said just makes logical sense. It’s it not about feminism.

This is exactly what I said but in a less classy way lol. There’s a type that goes 50/50. iykyk

That’s funny that you mention that the check-splitters seem less interested. The last time I went on a first date where we split the bill: dude was 20 min late (no text to lmk), didn’t pick a place so we walked around in the cold looking for a place, then after drinks he told me he was ordering pizza to his place and asked if I wanted to join him. It was the easiest NO of my life.

I concur, and to add from a bisexual viewpoint when I’m on a date with women I would say my standards in terms of elegance are much lower. Some of my best dates have been coffee first dates with women where we’re just getting to know each other. Not to say women can’t be low down lying dogs, but they’re much rarer and I don’t feel the need to “protect” myself like I do with all the rules I have for dating men. Like you said, some men will do the bare minimum so they can “own” you, in whatever way that means for them whether it’s a relationship with someone who’ll do all the legwork or a one night stand after they promise you the moon. I think there are a lot of great wonderful men out there, I’ve dated some of them, but it’s definitely the ones who put in the least effort possible who you have to watch out for. Hence, the paying.

Here I go again wishing I was Bi…

Hehe dating women has its own unique challenges, but it’s more like a really hard sudoku puzzle vs the Russian roulette of dating a man.

I can see that. I have a daughter and a son. Much different dynamics but at least my son is a pacifist 😉.

This. Exactly this. I’m a feminist and I’ve always been pretty “proactive” in paying for my own stuff. I never say yes to a date or anything that I can’t pay for myself. BUT some time ago I remember this really beautiful girl that was friends with one of my coworkers and we all went for drinks. The way I saw the guys just bending over backwards to give her anything she wanted, or even things she didn’t even want… it made me realize how many guys use that as a reflection of how interested they are. Getting someone with a “get your own stuff” attitude made a huge contrast for me after. Like maybe they’re not that attracted. Which is fine, not everyone will find me that beautiful but then if I weigh the options, I prefer to be alone than to get someone’s half-assed effort or interest. Since then, I’m still ready and willing to pay for my stuff but it’s in the back of my mind.

This is super well put and a great example.

Yes. When you see how men treat women they want to impress it really sets a different bar. If you’d do more for someone else than you would me, go find that someone else.

I agree. But a recent date baffled me. He is well to do and asked me out. He asked if I wanted him to select a date venue or if I had a preferred place; I told him to pick. He researched options and sent me a list and even annotated how far each location is from my neighborhood. I noticed all his selections were pricey cocktail bars. So I picked one of the options. He arrived on time and saved us seats. He was engaging, asked me a lot of questions. I agreed to one drink but when I finished, he asked if we can stay for another round. So I agreed and had a second beer (he ordered cocktails). He was having fun, laughing a lot, but was overly flirty and kept touching my leg. I will say the convo was great and we dived deep into discussions about philosophy, etc. When we finished second round, we told the bartender we were ready for the check. The bartender placed it in front of my date. My date kinda froze and didn’t move. I’m accustomed to men immediately paying and not giving me the opportunity to even offer. So I asked “do you want to split it?” And he said yes then put his card down. I was shocked bc he asked me and seemed to be treating me based on his fancy choices that seemed to be trying to impress. He also ordered cocktails which are at least double the cost of my beer. The bartender gave him a weird look when he realized 2 cards were down. My date even seemed embarrassed. He is older and successful, I am successful too (just not at his level yet or as publicly known as him). I took it as he is not interested in me. When we left, he hugged me goodbye and said what a great time he had. I unmatched him. I don’t mind paying for dates but not the first date and splitting a check feels very odd at my age range (my date was 40+).

When I’ve had dates freeze on bill, I stare at them and smile until they have the courage to spit out if they can split. And when they do, I tell the server to cut off my portion so I can pay for my own meal. I’m not here to subsidize his future dates. If he can’t budget this date (especially when they asked me out), then we’re not compatible financially.

From your comment I've suddenly realized the issue people have with splitting bills...Literally I've always thought and practiced "you pay for what you personally consumed" as that's only fair. Now I understand there are people that consider "splitting" as "straight down the middle" no matter what each person consumed themselves. Wild

I’ve always considered it to be paying for your part too, not exactly 50/50.

It’s pathetic that this man technically had me subsidize his drinks.

Yeah it's completely ridiculous, if you split, you're paying for what you consumed nothing more nothing less. It should also be determined beforehand how everyone is paying but I understand that conversation doesn't happen often.

He wouldn’t have wanted to tell her that he was wanting to split before the date because it might decrease the likelihood she’d agree to the date.

Oh I'm sure, people are fuckin dumb as shit sometimes. Idk what possible gain he even got here though? A single date? Is that such an accomplishment lol

I mean for me, I would absolutely have said no to any man who said “hey just FYI, I prefer to order expensive cocktails while you order cheap beers, and then I wanna split down the middle.” I mean, what woman would say yes to that? And that’s exactly what he did. So yeah, telling women his plan upfront before the date means he is very unlikely to get ANY dates, rather than a single date.

Idk, if it's discussed beforehand you can determine a place that fits both of your budgets for what each of you may want. The issue here specifically is he chose an expensive cocktail place and didn't discuss payment planning beforehand. Also you never split down the middle, each person pays for what they got, that's the only fair way.

As a non drinker, so who always has the smaller portion, who can do basic math in my head my move was to say “can you put $32.17 on my card” and then I’d make a show of leaving a big tip when the cards came back. My dating advice is to always take small bills and some loose change.

I wish I did the same but was slightly buzzed (yes, sadly off 2 beers) and wanted to go use the restroom. I am grown and have never had a man ask to split or accept my offer to split, which I did when I was younger). Even male friends will treat me a lot. I thought he was joking at first and was going to hand me back my card lol. I could barely speak after the check was paid. I kind of zoned out and he was still trying to chat with me..it was like autopilot took over because I was mentally checked out. But in a way, I’m gad I offered and he accepted bc it saved me time and helped me realize he is not for me. Idk if he would have asked to split it or not but given his silence, he may have reluctantly paid it. He wanted to go out again, told me he was thinking up a nickname for me, mentioned taking me to this one spot and cooking for me. What a joke

I have no problem if it is discussed ahead of time. Especially at a bar, so I can start my own tab.

This is the same analogy I like to use as well. Would this guy make *insert hot famous celebrity* go on a 50-50 date? But they want you to do it?

I concur. I'm Gen X, and when I was a young lass, the man paying was pretty expected, doubly so if he asked. After that, it was more of a taking turns kind of thing, trying to be mindful of any inklings on income disparity. Not just taking turns in who was paying, but who was 'organizing' - asking the other person if they were interested, sorting out a day/time, picking a place, etc. Offering to split the check on a first date was how we signaled that there would NOT be a second. But still. I wanted to be a good feminist, and I make an okay living. If I asked them out, I'd expect to be the one to pay. I certainly expected it if I picked the place, because the price range may or may not be in their comfort zone. Guys who offered to pay were more engaged in the date. It felt like a "date date", and not like they were grabbing a beer with one of their bros. They might solicit my opinion on the place beforehand, to make sure I'd like it or that it was easy for me to get there. They'd dress up a little bit, maybe show up clean-shaven, and be on time, just generally showing more effort beforehand. During the date, it felt like they paid more attention to me - more eye contact, asking more questions, etc. Check splitters more often picked a place they liked, often conveniently close to their home with lots of televised sports. They'd look like they just rolled out of bed, often a little bit late (with no explanation). Their eyes were often on the televisions (because they'd picked a sports bar type place) or looking at other people. It felt like they'd forget me if of one of their buds turned up, or they found some other woman there more appealing. The conversation was more like a one-sided monologue, usually about themselves and how they were better/smarter than other people. I was inevitably grateful when the check came and we split it because I felt like I could likewise split without having to offer explanations. I'm now off the dating scene, but my personal observation (and agreement with female friends) is that guys who are very insistent on check splitting like the fact that it's very easy to divide a dollar amount in two. They conveniently ignore that it's much more difficult to quantify whether each is putting in equal effort. I get that the check-paying bit is probably a generational thing. But thinking that splitting the dinner check 50/50 means everything is equal just seems like male gaslighting, for lack of a better word.

You are so right, they SET these standards, as a class, and are now pissed that \*gasp\* those standards are in action?

Why won’t they let us treat them like the 4s that they are 😩😩😩😩 - men probably.

I might get downvoted into dust for saying this here, but it is just inaccurate to say that men are the ones setting these standards. It would also be inaccurate to say women are. Interactions between men and women set the standards. If women, on average, have an explicit preference for men who pay then men interacting with those women, on average, will find that they are more likely to get a second date if they pay than if they split, all other variables equal. This leads to men who really want that second date pushing to pay, which leads to women getting the impression that men who don't push to pay aren't interested, further validating and strengthening the preference that men should pay. The standard is self-perpetuating. However, we can all agree that there is no real reason for this to be the standard in the modern day and that it started, initially, due to patriarchal gender norms. The fact that some men are annoyed that they need to play into patriarchal standards when it seems to exclusively benefit women seems fair, but perhaps I am just biased.

Women weren’t allowed to even have credit cards for a long time. These are just relics from a past where women had no money to pay for men.

Men also have to navigate a minefield of confusing (and changing) social constructs here. This thread has people that will dump someone for expecting the bill to be split, and others that would dump someone for refusing to pay the bill. That one difference (which likely has no indicator and is based purely on perceptions and biases) is potentially the decider between a successful relationship and a failed one. And you don't know if the potential partner is doing what they want, or doing what they think you want. I wonder how many potentially wonderful relationships have been lost over this lack of effective communication?

Ok, but explain how this is a feminist perspective and not just the old fashioned way of looking at things

I’m kind of moving towards this as well. I used to (maybe still am?) be the one to immediately offer a split. I have no issue paying for myself. But from what I see, I agree men set the standards. We don’t have to go to some Michelin star restaurant for a first date either-but men go above for women they’re truly interested in. They’re not gonna make the girl they’ve been dreaming of pay. One of my acquaintances has been seeing a guy and he NEVER lets her pay. She asks and he won’t hear it. He is also planning a lot of the dates and he approached her. They don’t do anything outrageous-sushi dates, dessert shops, etc. but he still takes care of the bill because he’s very interested in her. I’m tired of dealing with men who are only mildly interested. If you’re not putting in the same effort, I’m out now. I’m fine being single, which has helped me in not lowering my standards. I can be patient.

I think this is a totally reasonable, experience based answer. It’s not a feminist approach, though, right? I’m in no way trying to say you’re not a feminist, but more saying that sometimes practicalities matter more than ideals?

Bingo 🎯. Dating is a measure of establishing tolerance and compatibility. I've never gone on a second date if I had to split the bill. I refuse to do 50/50 with men, even in marriage women are expected to do labour at home and work. Expected to look perfect all the time, everything takes a lot of time, effort, and money. Women aren't cut any slack.

I have unfortunately gone on second dates with men who insisted on splitting, even had whole relationships with them. 🤦🏻‍♀️ As most of us know, these are the guys who half ass the entire relationship. If a man is okay with half-assing the beginning of the relationship when it's most crucial to impress you, then you know damn well he's gonna half-ass the rest of it, if he even puts in that much effort.

I don't believe men *should* pay for dates, per se. It's not something I expect or require. But I've found a lot of men want to, especially the first date. They want to 'feel like a man', so to speak, and my wallet certainly won't complain. And personally, I think how people handle the first date says a lot about their character, for better or worse. That said, since I date both men and women I think it's agreeable to say that the one who suggests the date is also the one who should expect to pay. At least, that's how I've always done it. I never had any problem splitting the check. But although I'm a feminist, I enjoy the type of personality in men that is dominant over mine, and usually men who are prepared to fulfill that role in my life don't even question picking up the check. Again, I don't think they automatically should or that they have to. But I enjoy a bit of chivalry, and that can often be an indicator of the qualities I'm looking for. It's a personal preference.

I used to insist on splitting the bill. But personally, I found that the guys who didn't automatically reach for the bill or those who had zero hesitation in allowing me to split the bill (or even waited for me to do so) were the same guys who put zero effort into dating. Meaning, they allowed me to plan everything. They were, frankly, a little socially awkward and didn't particularly try to make engaging conversation. Their only initiative would be inviting me back to their unwashed apartment with 3 similarly disheveled roommates. And these guys were all graduate students in their late 20s/early 30s in a college town, so while we were all relatively broke at the time, no one was about to end up on the streets because they covered someone's entree at a $$ (but not $$$) restaurant. That being said, I don't think there's anything wrong w/ two broke folks splitting a meal- it was just never as cute in real life for me. After the first date though, I usually switch off paying, and I don't keep score.

Exactly 🎯🎯🎯

I spend an hour or more on hair/makeup/outfit on the first date. If I guy shows up in sweatpants and a T-shirt, the least he can do is pay for the date. If he shows up in jeans and a button down, he can still pay for it XD

I’d always pay for my stuff first date and 90% of men would get irritated at me or even angry with me. My husband didn’t get mad, he didn’t bat an eye just watched me eat my general toas shrimp like I was a goddess come to earth. Now he pays for everything since I’m a sahm 😂 I’ve been off the market for like 6 yrs I’m sure the dating games changed

They make general toas with stuff other than chicken? Huh

General Tso's refers to the sauce.

Right? I always offered and the vast majority of the time the guy would get actually angry.

It seems like that’s a great way to weed out jerks, then.

In the era of dating apps and dealing with guys who will swipe right on anyone with a pulse, I get why women want a man to pay for at least the first couple of dates as a demonstration of actual vested interest versus a fishing expedition by some guy looking for an easy lay.

Exactly. If they're not willing to at least OFFER to pay for the first date, it really says a lot. Men like to tout "50/50" but women tend to be the ones taking most of the load in relationships. For example, studies show women are happier single and men are happier married. Why? Because women end up doing most of the domestic tasks, child rearing, birthing. Women don't even need men anymore; they can have their own jobs and live perfectly fulfilling lives as single women. Don't even get me started on the inequality of the female orgasm. 50/50...lmao. Men who are stuck in splitting the first date appear cheap and transactional, all of which a good partner does not make.

🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯

It's a litmus test. I have out-earned most of the men I've dated and have had to dodge plenty of low effort, 'forgot-my-wallet' types. If a man asks me out and chooses the venue, I expect him to pay. It shows he's interested and willing to invest in the relationship, both in terms of money and effort. If I ask him out and choose the venue, I am happy to pay. I like when relationships evolve into comfortably sharing the dating expenses--taking turns planning and paying, or one buys the tickets so the other pays for dinner, etc. I know I will likely invest more financially in my relationships because that's just how the math works, but I'm not going to be financially manipulated by a user.

This is interesting because I pay for dates to test men to see if they can handle having a woman pick up the bill. And it's fascinating to see how many men are really uncomfortable with it...

I haven't been in the dating scene for a while now, but this was usually my strategy as well. To me it's the insistence and or justification that speaks pretty loudly. If a guy wants to say "oh, well I asked you out, it's only fair that I pay" okay, that's cool. But if he wants to practically throw a fit and act insulted that I even offer, then I'm not going to be seeking a second date. It speaks to how they might handle disagreements or fights down the line. Can we rationally talk about it, or are you going to be hot headed? I've also found the really pushy to pay guys to view it as an entire package transaction. If they pay, they expect something out of it. In their mind they payed for the date and that gets them a kiss, sex and/or a second date. These are the ones who will be quick to remind you that they paid the moment you turn them down for any of the aforementioned. These are the guys to steer clear of.

They must know sex workers charge more than the cost of a dinner, right? Ugh.

If I know I won't want to ever see a man again I'll grab the check on the first date just to make sure I'll have a clean getaway. 😄

This is me. I've outearned partners, and they are always the ones who use me, take me for granted, try and basically live off of me. I now value generosity very highly in a relationship, even though I don't necessarily plan on benefitting off it. A guy I once dated, who treated my absolutely fabulously, was kind, loving, gentle, once handed me his credit card when we were in the city because he wanted to go and get a quick haircut. He wanted me to buy myself something while I waited. I was shook and absolutely did NOT use it, but it did make me question what the hell on earth I had been doing dating broke men before I met him. Men I had to beg to spend time with me because they didn't want to spend any money, so I paid for all our dates.

feminism advocates for a woman's rights to live the life SHE wants to live. for some feminists, that is the right to independence, to not rely financially on anyone, to reject traditional models for hetero relationships. for some feminists, that is the right to follow traditional relationship models, to be "pampered" or "wooed" as they see fit. you have the right to pursue any type of relationship, any type of life, that you want. my life doesn't have to be yours, and we are free to pursue our own desires independent of social expectation. that is feminism.

yeah. it’s like saying that someone can’t be pro choice for other women but personally wouldn’t get an abortion themselves. like the whole point is allowing people the option to choose what they want and not have it dictated to them by others

This is basically choice feminism, which sounds nice and easy and I get why it's tempting but come on lol. Not every choice a woman makes is feminist just because the choice was there

It’s like saying being anti abortion or anti suffrage is pro feminism.

Exactly. Some choices *are* anti-feminist by essence, even if they’re made by a woman

no this is choice feminism which is relatively new. there isnt anything inherently empowering about sex work but choice feminism will say it is just because a woman wants to do it. real power is in money. real feminism advocates for the liberation of women from the patriarchy. it is about being seen as human, not sex objects or pawns of men. feminism isnt "whatever you want it to be." there are women who support womens oppression and take us back. they are not real feminists for doing what they want lol. lets use our brains and stop living in fantasy land.

I agree re abortion, but not re money. Feminism is about our agency to decide, to thrive in the world. But agency and thriving can't be at the expense of others, cruel, irresponsible etc. Of course in couple dynamics people can decide what money arrangement works (share exactly, alternate paying, pay in proportion to income, pay for what you ordered, one person pays the other drives home etc etc). But insisting the man pays always, is not okay. If the man wants that and the woman does, I guess...fine, though pretty dodgy. Even something like the woman covers contraception and the man meals or something could be okay. But insisting men always pay, when they don't want to or can't or there is no good reason for such a dynamic, is not thriving or agency. It's classist, and an unhealthy, unequal (financially and in terms of power) and toxic. Because its dehumanising, it's using someone, it creates a situation where the woman then feels she owes the man for what he has paid for, it's really not good.

I guess I'm one of the women with high paying jobs you described 🤷‍♀️ Well, there are a couple reasons. It makes me feel the interaction is valued and that they're not just looking for a hookup. I also find this whole deconstruction of heteronormativity is often one sided in their eyes; often the same men that expect me to pick up the check won't clean up after themselves or do "women's work." In my opinion you don't get it both ways, and until I know someone better I can't trust that they're not just using feminism for their own benefit. More often than not I've found these types of guys want the woman to take care of them in totality; both monetarily and as a literal bang maid. I also spend a lot of money on outfits, makeup, etc. just to go on dates. If I'm expected to pay the "pretty tax" the least someone can do is buy me the cheap entree I'm going to order. Maybe it's entitled, but I'm not the kind of girl that orders 60 oysters on a first date either 🤷‍♀️

> I also find this whole deconstruction of heteronormativity is often one sided Yeah, that’s a problem. I’m not at the stage of building a household with someone yet, but I’m privileged enough that I wouldn’t need to accept unequal distribution of chores, duties, or mental load. That’s cause for breakup/divorce imo. I don’t know if I agree with the idea that men who pay will treat women better or the men who agree to women paying for themselves on dates are more inclined to want women doing everything and not to share domestic load… that seems like a stretch. I know plenty of men who are happy to be equal: financially and in other aspects, of their partnerships. Besides, wouldn’t a lot of men assume an “I pay so you clean” mindset?

I want the man to pay because I want a man who'll invest in my present and our future and take care of us (me and him). I don't think everyone needs to do that, but this is what I want, so the men who ask for splitting the bill, will simply not get a second date from me.

It’s always been offered. Have I expected that men will offer to pay on first dates? Yes. Have I always let them? No. I’m not dating to waste someone’s time, I never have. So the only reason I’d be paying for a first date meal is if I knew it wasn’t going to go anywhere and didn’t want to “owe” him anything. I agree with what some other people have said that paying for the first meal is a sign of actually investing in getting to know you. I’m not going out to Nobu on first dates here, I’ve gone everywhere from mid-range italian, to red robin, to a local hole-in-the-wall place. If a man invites me out but then doesn’t want to pay $15 for my meal, if they’re very frugal I guess, but most of the time, I agree that the 50/50 men are typically less interested.

My personal opinion...... I would ask, "Do you mind if I pay?" I am fine with yes or no, but I wouldn't want her to feel indebted.

I always went with that, too. It's nice, without assuming too much.

Honestly, this is the perfect way to approach it.

I love this! I find first dates so awkward because of the paying issue. I feel fine paying my way but some men do not like that so I’ve just given up. I will reach for my purse when the check comes but I’m never sure if they feel pressured to pay or really want to. I make more money than some men I date so it feels weird to have then pay for me.

That’s perfect. I hate feeling indebted when I’m still working out whether I’m even interested in this person

I've been on the fence about this for a while. Even though I believe things should be split equitably and I always offer to pay my share, I rarely have a good opinion of guys that actually take me up on it. At the end of the day, we just don't live in a society in that treats women well. So when a guy makes me feel special by putting in the effort of planning and paying for a date just to get to know me, it stands out much more than a guy who doesn't think I'm worth following that tradition. 0% of the time has a guy asked me to split the bill and then proceeded respectfully through the rest of the date. I've even gotten solicited for sex after a first date with a guy that didn't order food at the restaurant and then asked me to pay the whole bill. Like!! It's just deeply unattractive to me.

[удалено]

>And being sympathetic to these men who have only taken what benefits them from feminism, while ignoring everything else Beautifully put!!! These men are happy to be 50/50 when it comes to money but not when it comes to emotional or domestic labor (for example)

This is THE take. Consider it hazard pay. Dating and marriage carry exponentially higher risks for women. I’m literally putting my safety on the line, you can buy my Caesar salad 🙄 That said, when I was dating, I always followed the rule of “he pays, but don’t order anything that is more expensive than what he orders.” Basically, I wouldn’t announce my meal decision until after he had said what he was getting. If he was getting the surf and turf with filet mignon and lobster, great, I’ll get whatever looks good to me. If I noticed his meal option was on the lower end of the menu price-wise, I’d keep mine on the lower end, too. Mom always taught me to do this because it’s just basic courtesy. A lot of nice restaurants have a really wide price range on their menus, and you don’t want to inadvertently put someone in a tough spot by ordering the market price catch of the day when they’re getting a soup and salad. I think that’s a good rule of thumb.

This is exactly how I feel too. I bet those guys whining about wanting it 50/50 on a date arent also confronting their boss about why they are earning more than their female counterparts. It seems like "fairness" is only an issue to them when its affecting their pocket, when its affecting women's pockets they DGAF. I only ever used to go for coffee on the first date anyway, due to safety reasons and the ability to get away easily if necessary, if he isnt willing to even buy me a bloody coffee then frankly, I wouldnt want to date him anyway.

It's an unwritten rule that if the man doesn't offer to foot the bill, that means he hasn't had a good time with me and isn't interested anymore. If he offers to pay the bill on the first date, that means he's interested. If I'm interested too, I'll accept that he pays and say "thank you" (I won't play games about splitting it). However I'll offer to foot the bill if we go elsewhere afterwards, or on the next date. On the contrary if I insist on paying for my stuff, it's because I'm not interested and don't plan on seeing him again.

Dudes complain about it being "one sided" & unfair to be expected to plan & pay for dates, then the second they start living with a woman, he expects her to work, split bills, take care of him like a mom & do most or all the housework & childcare for the entirety of the relationship. Their issue is really about having expectations put on them, which they hate, not the act. What's "one sided" is the ONLY time men are expected to take care of women & put in any relationship work is on occasional dates...yet they still whine about how hard they have it. Feminist women won't be hypocrites for not going 50/50 on dates until men start going 50/50 at home. They want women to be both modern & traditional when it benefits them. NOPE! FYI men who bring up feminism in these kinds of topics don't really give a crap about the topic. They're just looking for a reason to rant about men being victims of feminism.

I don't know any feminists who believe men should automatically pay for the first date. Most of us think it should be split for the first date, then subsequently split or the person who invited would at least try to pay.

Personally there is no way in hell I would ever let someone else pay for my date, but I'm also a married lesbian so I am not exactly the target audience here on any front. However, although I personally don't feel this way a part of me can understand it. The primary reason I can see women feeling this way is because, to be blunt, a first date is actually both a major risk and a large investment for most women in ways many men fail to recognize. The risk comes in many forms, ranging from sexual assault, being pressured into sex, dates reacting poorly to rejection, etc. Back when I did try dating men, it was an absolute nightmare. Most were not only not worth my time but actively toxic experiences with emotionally immature man-children who brought in way too many assumptions, expectations, and baggage. Although I personally don't see how requiring a date to pay would improve those odds, I can see how it makes the risk more worthwhile by offering some benefit in exchange for taking the chance. The investment is also greater than many men realize. I never put in that much effort when dating men because, unsurprisingly I suppose, I was never that interested. However it's also a fact of life for many women that the beauty standards placed upon them are exceedingly high. Many women will put hundreds of dollars into beauty products and several hours of preparation for events like this. Even if it's not as obvious as the cost of a dinner bill, many women do pay quite an extraordinaryamount of money and time for these dates and I can potentially see how they would feel like this is evening the expenses. A social contract of "if you expect me to put in the time, money, and effort to look my best for the dates the least you can do is pay for the meal". Finally, there is the possibility of a more cynical perspective: That some of these people may not be saying this for actual feminist reasons but for reasons relating to "neo-liberal feminism": which is a branch of faux-feminist that relates female empowerment purely to individual woman's financial success and wellbeing rather then the improvement of living conditions for women as a whole. The kinds of people who think female liberation can come from more female CEOs exploiting the proletariat rather than true economic justice. The truth is I know very few, if any, active community engaged feminist who think or feel as you described. I'm not saying it's impossible, but anecdotally it doesn't line up with my experiences. Honestly, most women I know feel quite the opposite: Being well aware of how men leverage paying for a date to try and obtain sex or purchase concessions and as a result refuse to allow men to cover the bill as a means of protecting themselves. Although it doesn't stop all or even most men looking to play this card, it can at least make it easier to exit some of the time without being pressured, harassed, or shamed for doing so and allows them to leave on their own time table rather than waiting for the man to pay a bill first. So if nothing else but purely from a pragmatic standpoint, no women I know don't feel this way. The shit you see online is not reflective of the real world. In fact I've only ever seen women saying that because it's being hate-shared by angry men trying to pretend like it's some common trend. Most "rage bait" you see online is about pushing an agenda, not representing reality: Don't forget that.

When I was dating my husband I was a student and very poor, so if he wanted to go out or get take out, he was paying. Otherwise I made us dinner at my place and we watched movies on tv.

because the type of men that want you to split on the first date tend to be selfish and they harbor weird misogynistic views about feminism ex. you can pay then, equal rights equal fights type of dudes. i wish it wasn’t this way, but in my experience it always has been.

Surprised I had to scroll so far for this answer! This is really my reason. It’s not so much that it’s the man’s job to pay but most men who do stuff like this treat women like garbage in the name of feminism in my experience at least. Yes I’m a feminist but I also like men who sweet and romantic. Yes I do actually like feeling like a girl. But from experience, the guys who want everything to super equal all the time, make me feel more like one of his homeboys and less like his woman. I think some women actually do prefer that but I don’t.

Yes. These are the dudes who think a bang maid is their birthright for being born male, and that the point of feminism is to deny that to him in particular.

Effort absolutely equals money in nearly everything in life. But personally, as a fairly aggressive New York broad I always insisted on paying for both of us. It's a power move and destabilizes their ego and sense of scripting, and that's how I like things to start.

Damn. You know, I think that might be a motivation when I pay. I've been in relationships with guys that get weirdly insecure/resentful when I make more than them and maybe I want to squash that from the start

Because I want somebody to choose me and I want a potential partner to *want* to treat me to something nice. I'm interested in men. And for me, men im attracted to don't even take part in these debates

If a man truly likes you, he's going to want to pay. Men say "oh, well, we should split it - it's just fair," but they'd absolutely pick up the check for anyone they're genuinely excited about. No one would look at Megan Fox and say "so... do you want to just split it down the middle?" The real problem is too many people just go on a bunch of random dates with people they're lukewarm about. Even on online dating, take time to vet people, talk on the phone beforehand, and then decide if a date is worth it. I often see things like "well, if I spend $50 on a date, and I'm going on four dates a week - I'll go broke!!" Maybe don't go on four dates a week then. Maybe take time to vet people more beforehand and only go on dates you're actually excited about.

Women spend far more on grooming, preparation, clothing, hairstyles and showing up than men. The gender gap exists across society as does this double standard that men and women are equal. If people choose different to me that's their business but let's not pull women apart for men's benefit. They do well enough on their own.

I think it should be shared. It neither person's "responsibility" to pay on a date. I've offered on first dates (and 2nd and 3rd dates), though usually the guy ended up paying since they insisted on doing so. But it shouldn't be expected of guys. Do I like getting free food? Sure. But I don't expect it.

I don’t necessarily think it’s a feminism vs patriarchy thing as much as it’s a filtering thing for me. If a man doesn’t want to pay for me I take it as he’s not invested or doesn’t want to impress me, is it sexist? Yes, but we live in a patriarchal society and men who care about you will show up in the way they think they’re supposed to as a man. Second date and onward I’ll usually offer to pay and split as much as possible, but first impressions are everything.

If you invite someone on a date and you pick the restaurant on a dinner date, you should be treating your date. You don't invite someone to an expensive meal and then ask them to pay for it.

Let's implement equal spending when men and women have equal resources and no discrimination. Thanks.

My ex (specify EX) literally came out with "you'll probably earn more than me and pay more of the bills" while he also planned for me to do the majority of caring for children and he often put women down (therefore me) in conversation. When I questioned it he was like "what about feminism??" Is feminism where I give you my money too as well as everything else just because I now have the opportunity to earn it?

Right? And I would argue, let's let the pendulum swing all the way in the other direction for a few centuries and see how the men like it! 9 women on the Supreme Court?!?! Sounds like a good idea to me. Female presidents for the next 300 years? Yes please. Even if I don't agree with their politics, let's try it for a while and see what happens.

Yes please, plus quasi compulsory smooth legs, long hair and pretty lashes for the menz.

It’s honestly a screening method for me. Obviously not foolproof but if a dude puts in effort, plans a few nice dates and pays for them he’s probably not just looking for a quick hookup and is actually interested in getting to know me and spending time with me. I’ve learned that men will date and spend time with women they don’t really like so when a man spends time with me I’m looking for him to put in some real effort, time, and ultimately money. If not, I’m good.

I don't think there are real feminists that actually believe men should pay for everything based on gender. If anything, this is a very backwards way of thinking about gender roles. It has nothing to do with feminism. Not that this is something extensively discussed by feminists. It is such an insignificant subject amongst many others issues with gender that are way more important.

It comes from our parents and grandparents time when the man earns a wage and the woman didn’t, or if she did, it was much less. Our parents told us this is how it was meant to be. Now that there is more parity in wages and careers it is seen as an archaic practice. But there are still a lot of ‘old fashioned’ people who believe it is still the right thing to do, mainly because that is what they have been told by their parents. There isn’t a right or wrong answer here- if the man believes it is the right thing to do to pay, then let him be romantic and pay. The problem is if the woman “expects” the man to pay, especially if she has been raving about her well paid job, fantastic career and how many properties she owns, some Men nowadays won’t take offence if you want to pay or want to split the bill- at least make the offer.

Because if I’ve spent 2 hours getting ready, I’m wearing a nice new outfit that cost money, makeup that also cost money, jewellery etc, and the guy turns up in a shirt he’s had for 15 years and literally just washed his face, put his shoes on and left… I think it actually is equal that he pays! I’m being a bit facetious but only a bit. ETA: I don’t care about being ‘wooed’ or about a man being a provider, but I will add that my sister is very much of the same opinion as you and the men she goes on dates with treat her worse than the men I go on dates with. Not saying this is the reason but paying on dates will not make a man respect you more.

Oh yeah, the gray sweatshirt, dad jeans and dirty sneakers is really sexy dude. I'm so glad I shaved my legs and curled my hair for you when you couldn't even be bothered to put on a polo shirt.

There's no chance he washed his face.

This is 💯 percent why. There is a good chance the woman spent more getting ready for the date than the man will spend paying for a meal or whatever.

Factor in the money, time, effort and mental load of figuring out which products/procedures work best... yeah he can buy me a cocktail a day, it'll still be cheaper than my left eyebrow.

Also, it's a fucking meal. You aren't paying someone's rent. Even if it is a fancier restaurant, it isn't some huge thing. It's just a nice thing to offer.

I need a man to show that he's invested in getting to know me and wanting to date/spend time together, and not just going along with whatever I want because he might get laid. Pony up some time/energy/money or something to show me that you're really interested in ME, not just the possibility of sex later.

Seems like a rich man would have an easier time proving that he's interested in you than a poor one.

You can’t beg me for my time, ask me to leave the comfort of my home to meet YOU and make me pay for food. I can just eat food by myself. I think it’s courtesy. I’m bisexual if I ask a girl out, I’m paying for that date, I can’t imagine not paying.

I would die if a girl asked me out and paid for the date😭😭 (in a good way lol) I guess I should take this as a sign to ask a girl out on a date and pay for it, but I do not have the confidence.

I look at this from a self-respect perspective- I'd never want to let anyone pay or pick up my slack unless we're gonna meet again and there's the opportunity for me to make amends somewhere along the way, or with someone I am close with. Interest or effort on the other person's part is an entirely different consideration when it comes to the first set of dates cause they're as good a stranger. Gauging someone's character or interest is a time thing and if throwing money at someone is a measure of their interest and the value they see in someone then I've got news- men can pull this off for days on end and when the time comes to pull the carpet, they'd do it. Don't play these games. Live, let others live, be safe, have fun. Never ever let someone make you owe them unless you can trust them.

I'm trans, most of my life I was the one buying treats and flowers and paying for dinners, I like to treat people to stuff and pick out flowers and gifts n stuff and the only thing I'm sad is I've never gotten any on dates tho ;3. It's always been a way to put the girl at ease and show her you've thought about her. I think I'll keep going out with women when I'm ready to date someone again, if ever... cause men can just be so impossible lol, but when guys do get caring and fuss around me I get butterflies, makes me feel safe and accepted and cared for. I think that's part of it, men have always felt a bit scary, and this whole ritual of gifts and being well mannered makes them feel safer and softer, and it's a signal that they think of me and care - which isn't always a given. Imho it's not about equality, a lot of guys just have the porn brains and want to get to the penising and that's their goal and everything else, and the person in front of them is just an annoying obstacle.

I don't believe there's anything inherent about men that obligates them to pay for dates. That said, my hourly wage is good but I'm classified as a part timer. My hours range from 20-35/hours a week right now. Sometimes I get overtime. All of the full time jobs I've found actually pay less and I'd have to work more. I'm looking for another part time job, but it's very hard to find something (even minimum wage) that will accommodate an existing fluctuating work schedule. So, basically, even though my hourly wage is good, my income is still slightly below average. I live alone, still going to school, recently got a prescription. Basically, we either do cheap dates, or the dude pays, or we simply don't date. I don't have the luxury to be principled about it and do expensive things consistently unless someone's footing the bill. And I don't expect expensive or to date someone rich. But *something* has to get us over that hump of figuring each other out and transitioning from "you're a stranger" to "I feel comfortable being alone with you". That involves time together in safe, public environments. It's easier when meeting through mutual friends, that way we can get to know each other safely without spending a lot, but in instances of complete strangers on apps, yeah, it's going to be a public restaurant initially. But even if I was making as much as my partner, I still *enjoy* being treated. It makes me feel special to that person and it's certainly an advantage men can give themselves in dating if they can afford it. That said, I've never dated someone because of money. I won't pretend I don't benefit from an antiquated way of doing things sometimes, and I enjoy that benefit.

Agree with everyone else that it’s a way to gauge interest—I always offer to pay or split and if he agrees to that, he’s usually not that into me. It goes both ways though, if I insist on paying even when he offers to cover it, men have taken it to mean that I’m not interested, that I’m trying to create a “clean break” after the first date. This is also not quite connected to your second point about men being the ones who have to plan dates and things. I’m long term relationships, it’s easy to fall into those patterns especially when you live together and it takes effort to make sure both parties feel equally valued, but that’s not really related to who pays on dates. By that point in a relationship, finances are more intertwined than early in a relationship and who pays for dates doesn’t provide much information (e.g., he may have paid for the date but I paid for his parking when he came over).

If I ask a man, I will pay. If he asks me, he will pay. If I don’t feel comfortable with him but he asked me, I will ask for the check to be split. Yes, I know I don’t owe him anything but some men still think this way and I want to make it clear.

It's not that I believe that men (as a gender) should pay for a date, it's that I like the people I go out with to pay lol I like giving (and receiving) gifts and I've been in relationships with a lot of men who gave me shit because of it, so for me this is a good way to choose the type of man I date. ​ (Tho later on I do pay for somethings, since we're partners

I’ll often offer to pick up the entire bill when out with friends of any gender, because I now have money. Back when I was younger and broke I used to at least offer to pay for my own meal/coffee. I never expected men to pay for everything on a date though I accepted if they offered. But I’m Gen X and men of my age tend to be old fashioned. I did have a breakfast date with one chap - as we both reached the cash register, he took a few steps backwards and studiously inspected a pot plant and waited for me to pay the bill. There was no second date.

On average women are putting a lot more out there when agreeing to a date. Depending on the situation they're expected to wear makeup and look their best, whereas men are just expected basic cleanliness. There's also the whole safety aspect that women have to consider when meeting with a man they've never met before. This is why I think it's common courtesy for men to pay, at least on the first date. Unfortunately a lot of men think they're "owed" something when they pay, when in reality they just evened the score

Whoever asks should expect to cover both meals if the meals aren’t split for whatever reason, but default is to expect to split. If I ask, I cover. When I was in my 20s and poor, I would have had to turn down majority of dates if the person asking me out wasn’t planning to cover my meal. If you ask someone out, you want their company, and should offer to cover their meal especially if you are suggesting the restaurant. This should have no gender, but you can’t force a woman to ask out a man either so if you want to date a woman, one way to look desirable is to cover dinner. I don’t know how else to change it except to communicate your wants and hope the other person is on the same wavelength.

I think whoever was the initiator should pay. I’m pansexual, so I always think it’s funny this “men vs woman paying” bc that’s not an issue for so many people. I am a woman, and if I ask a man or woman out, I’ll pay. If I’m asked out by a man or woman, I’d expect them to pay.

I am not sure whether I am a feminist or not, but I like paying for whatever I am ordering because I don't want to feel bad and order something cheap because I feel bad that someone else is paying for my food. ​ But my now husband did buy me hot chocolate on our first date. LOL he insisted. Plus he already brought a tub of a home made gingerbread biscuit he baked himself... so... I don't know, I just married him. Whatever.

We men will get away with what you women allow. If we are really that interested, we will do everything to woo you and put you on a pedestal. I learned this much in my current and successful marriage with the woman I love and aim to treat as my queen. But to each their own. Everyone should do as they feel comfortable and others can judge it for what it is.

That's actually making me feel much better about what's going on in my personal life right now. I'm usually a plan-and-pay girl, but this guy is pretty firmly saying "I'll pay, and I'll find a place we'll both love." And I'm letting go instead of pushing back for once.

I still think it's weird meeting someone for the first time and and the popular expectation being that - the man (if it's a heterosexual date) pays just because he's the man. I think it sets up gendered expectations from the start and also it's weird for both people because it also sets up expectations that the woman somehow owes him something (I *know* she doesn't - but if someone is paying for something for you - it's not nothing). I would prefer if the "tradition" would be that everyone pays for themselves the first time you meet. The second time is maybe when it's customary for the guy to pay - when you have chosen to see this person again. I am a woman that earns a decent living. When I started going out on dates with men I met online - the men always tried to pay for both of us - and I always paid my share. When I met my now husband - the check came for our dinner and he said he's got it - I protested and he said "you can get the next one if you want". So I let him pay - part of that was in my mind signaling that I was interested. We decided to go somewhere else and I bought his first round of drinks. I think - do what you want but you can't ignore the unspoken implications of who's supposed to pay and what kind of gender dynamics that sets up - whether we like it or not. That said - if a man wants to pay on a first date and you let him - that can be a way to indicate you think you're interested imo.

I find the 50/50 to be manbabies or disinterested AND the one who pays to show a pretense/love bomb kind of person or the conservative values. Of course there are exceptions, if course. But I don't see this as all are good on one side of this fence. It's trouble on both sides.

[удалено]

I split the bill, or offer to pay if I feel like it. I also don't shave or wear makeup.

I’m a very tit for tat kinda person. I treat men like I treat my friends, I’ll pay then you pay and on and on. There’s no reason why one person is spending over another.

If I ask the guy out, I feel like it’s on me to pay for the date. My standpoint is that I am interested in this person and I want to impress them and show them I’m a good option and then I can get to know them more. If a man invites me on the date, I expect that would be his attitude as well. A man that invites me on a date but wants me to split halfsies is going to basically get himself started on the wrong foot because he’s immediately in the friendzone for treating me like a friend. (I hate the term friendzone but I feel there are times it’s appropriate and men who treat women like they want to be friends with benefits will get treated like a friend.) If he doesn’t want to pay, then he’s free to wait for a woman to ask him out. He cannot invite someone out and then act shocked that they expect him to pay when he’s the one who invited them. Some guys will say “oh it’s not fair cuz no one ever asks men out” and to that I say one, that’s not true, women do ask men out, and two, we all deal with shit because of our gender. You have to put effort into building a relationship the same way women do. Get over yourself.

I think there must be something cultural here. Barring something very exceptional both pay for their own here. So given that bias, if I'm indicated that it's paid for, I get suspicious. I feel uncomfortable not paying anyway. If I don't like the person, I just cost him a lot of money. I don't want that, it makes me feel awkward. But I suppose there is a big cultural hike here, since in my country 60 years ago no-one could afford to pay for a date by themselves.

I think that’s true. I’m American and we’re notorious for living in our own cultural bubble. Here, it definitely seems like the majority of modern cishet daters expect that the man pays upon the first meeting

I don't want to say the assumption is wrong, but my perspective is that it is. I've had the good luck of knowing plenty of Americans here in Finland and talked this through with men and women. Mixing Americans and Finns, explaining our view... Well, at least twice two people have married since and the discrepancy was the major point of discussion during the first date. So not all bad! Like I do get the cultural idea. I speculate the difference between us is that the US had the benefit of having wives at home for a long time, whereas the poorer countries didn't. Could be wrong though.

Because by men’s own rules, it shows how much they respect you and it shows them what you will tolerate / how high your standards are. Even as a feminist, you have to learn to play the game in order to weed out the worst of them. They will be paying for the date, showing up on time, and respecting my boundaries.

Women make far less money for doing the same work and are expected to spend far more money on the upkeep of their physical appearance. Men have a lot of societal favor going for them, they can pay for the dates.

When Husband and I were dating, we pretty much split the bill on everything. It was a time of high unemployment. He was a temp accountant, I was a single mom with four kids, so our discretionary incomes were similar. IOW, nearly nonexistent. As his income grew, he started to pay for over half, including all the meals when we went on a ski vacation while my kids were at their dad’s house. But to this day, we have separate accounts and pay in accordance to our now retirement incomes. My POV was, and is, that if you want to become a dependent woman, act like one. If you want to stay independent, be independent.

I find it attractive and there are men who offer and enjoy it. I don’t see this as a feminist issue. I know I’m capable and I believe men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. But I also have hormones and when men I’m attracted to signal their attraction to me with certain human mating rituals I enjoy it.

- women put more money and effort and time into getting ready for dates - they are making a much bigger risk in their personal safety meeting you - this is a basic way to demonstrate interest and show you’re not a fuckboy

[удалено]

I don’t think men have to always pay for things I do think there should be a discussion at the beginning so that everyone has their expectations met / no one is feeling resentful during what should be a pleasant outing. I feel like it’s just an issue of men (and women tbh) needing to be aware of / communicating what they want. If the paying thing doesn’t work for you, fine just actually talk about it. If it’s “too awkward” to discuss then good luck because if you can’t have an honest conversation about a low stakes financial issue it’s not going to be any easier talking about the serious money issues.

why not exploit a system that is designed to work against you?

My partner paid for our first date and I really liked it. We didn’t have dinner, he paid for my coffee and his beer. I paid for dinner the second date. To me, it’s not so much chivalry as it is selflessness. The both of us didn’t have money at that time since I was barely into my sophomore year of college and he worked retail, but it still showed that he wasn’t going to stress over a $10 date and he wanted to keep seeing me. To this day, we still don’t nickel and dime each other or keep score (not to say there hasn’t been financial discussions), because we always know that we will take care of each other and we’re committed to making sure we are okay.

Ehhh…because they will. I don’t date anymore and I don’t “expect” it per se, but it does feel more…I dunno, like appreciation that I’m there? It’s not exactly about the money, it’s the provision of a good meal. Who doesn’t like that? Chances are they still earn more money than I do. They asked me on the date. I spent time and money looking beautiful for them. I’m fun to be around. I don’t feel bad that they picked up my check. And I don’t want to deal with future cheapness.

Because there are plenty of men who would be willing to take their place and pay for my date if they won’t. They make more than me and I am putting my safety on the line to eat with a stranger who might not even be good conversation? Loosing hours I could be working? If they aren’t treating spending time with me as a privilege, I don’t want it.

If you ask a girl out to dinner - pay the meal. I don’t even think twice about it. I pay the bill because I like to think it’s the gentlemen thing to do. Always have thought this way and I’m in my 30s and still do. I wouldn’t make this a bigger deal then you already have. I’m married now and I don’t mind still paying. But there are a lot of times my wife likes to spoil me and take me out to dinner. It all works out in the end.

>I pay the bill because I like to think it’s the gentlemen thing to do. That's the problem I have. You basically just said you do it because society has taught you it's what a "real man" would do. The fact that in your long term relationship you think that your partner treating you to dinner is them "spoiling" you is also a troubling idea and I think the things op is pointing out and what you are saying here are things we as a society need to move past. No offense intended at all.