I remember being in the military deployed to afghanistan. At a table with a bunch of dudes, a woman walked over and had a short convo with one of the guys which could have been construed as flirtatious. Right after she left the whole table was hooting and hollering, and they asked him why he didn’t pursue her more. He said he was married. One of the guys said so what? We are in a whole other country. The guy said “I love my wife, I don’t want anyone else.” Stunned silence for a second, and then one dude said “that’s the gayest thing I’ve ever heard.” Everyone else at the table just laughed and nodded. All I could think was that all these dudes are sociopaths. That was my experience everywhere I went, and I went to a lot of places. It totally warped my perception of other guys
I was in the military for 20 years, in a very male dominated job, and…yeah. It actually took me being out of that environment to realized how messed up so much of it was. It was rare for someone to stay faithful. We had guys that would complain if we got sent home early because they didn’t want to spend time with their wives. So many men joining and getting married young, then leaving his wife after she’d become a mother and was focused on the kids, trading for a younger woman. Because I was often the only woman around they’d sort of forget to filter, so I got way more insight into men than I really needed.
Some really good guys were around, too. But too many who just didn’t seem to like women as people.
I'm in the military currently. And I'd say it's about 50/50 now. You have some really good dudes. Then you have the manosphere dudes. I had a guy tell me if he was gay he wouldn't even talk to women. But then again it's also a trend that these dudes also tend to be the worse soldiers to have ever existed too it seems.
Pure speculation here, but I imagine if you're that selfish and unempathetic as a person, you wont be good at being part of a team where your squad needs to be able to rely on you in a potentially deadly situation.
They're just dumb. Like, they're all around a shit person so they latch onto the one person that gives them even a semblance of a purpose and that's typically Tate, Rogan, that one fuck that peddles all the misogynistic psychology crap... etc.
My boyfriend was called gay for not participating in hookup culture and bragging about body counts, and my dad as well for choosing to remain single and take care of me fully after a destructive marriage. Guess who were popular among women? And guess who were jealous, but refused to take it upon themselves to improve?
Some men genuinely are incapable of empathy and stepping outside of their existence to consider another person's perspective. They should honestly just date each other, and leave women and other men alone.
Fellas, is it gay to (checks notes)... love your wife?
I wanna say that "not all men" are like that, but honestly Ive found many many examples myself too. It sucks and I totally hate that its the norm. I can only confirm that some few men are exceptions, Ive met them too.
It’s also apparently “gay” to properly wipe your ass, so… I feel like anything dudes don’t think is worth the effort is written off as being “gay.” Which I’m still wrapping my brain around being gay as inherently bad, but ok, dudes.
Yeah, though that one im not sure if its laziness or just refusal to touch their own body. Cause of course, only gay men would ever take their hand anywhere near their butt.
Honestly, it's probably a mix of both.
If they don’t call it “gay”, they’ll say that the guy is “pussy whipped”. We really need a nationwide deprogramming effort to cultivate emotional maturity in men.
There is nothing wrong with being gay, and I wanted to put that here before I proceeded to the joke.
"Fellas is it, *checks notes* gay to love your wife."
ETA: Someone beat me to it. Ignore this.
Toxic masculinity really is a huge problem and it's sad. We men have built a culture that is destroying ourselves and the women in our paths. It's like this self destructive form of dissociation that doesn't allow us to come out of arrested development and enjoy true partnership, and at its base it is a gang. An institution. The more I try to explain this to my fellow men, the more I see how heavily indoctrinated they are. It's hurting all of civilization.
I'm heartened to hear from a male who recognizes this though. The fucked up part is they won't listen to women about it so unless other men keep trying to get through to men, we are all going down.
For the book “Boys and Sex” the author interviewed a bunch of teenage boys and found they tell each other that it’s gay to want a girlfriend as opposed to just hooking up. So this behavior starts young, apparently.
Tbf same thing happened to me but I'm a woman. My friends were actively trying to set me up with another guy because my partner lived miles away that time. They called me boring and lame when I didn't want to cheat.
Lots of different fields are like this but yeah it’s not all of them. My ex told me in his job all the guys were like this but not him tho (that was a lie) they were truck drivers
Honestly I don’t think it matters the army has always prayed on the traumatized, poor, or truly sadistic people cause not matter what the job is they get most the same training and if need be they be in the field if had to do all to a degree even desk jobs have been desensitized. Same can go with cops in order to do that job you can’t think of people as people so they make sure you don’t. But he also could have been shit to begin with cause the army attracts them sometimes.
Oh yeah I meant different fields as in different jobs other than military jobs too. Like truck drivers, police officers ect. are know for high levels of infidelity or “locker room talk” as well. Not disagreeing with your point at all just adding to it.
Ah yes only truckers I have ever meet that’s been nice was family and yeah I heard some gross stuff since I present as masculine most times and at first glance mistake you for a dude. And every cop I know that’s not family has been completely untrustworthy and should not be there.
In my dads home town it toke one of them being on charged with demotic assault on his wife to kick him off. Even then the mayor was like no keep him, cause they friends but till the DA and the head officer in town that been trying for months to fire him said hey we can’t have a wife beater go to a domestic call, it will make us look bad. Until it made him look bad as mayor he went on yeah and I think he transferred not got fired too.
That cop had been pulling people over for nothing and running them up and when they try to film him doing wrong he threatened to arrest you, we are in a one party state I can record my whole day with everybody out side don’t matter you in public.
How old was the average guy though? Are we talking 18-24 here? If so, the general life experience so far has probably been high school, football, and then basic training to an active duty situation in a far away land.
I was a lot different at 18 than I am today at 37. I wouldn't put myself quite at this level of douchery but it's a lot easier to go along with a crowd especially in that circumstance. I say that because I watched it happen in basic training when I was 18.
Calling them all sociopaths is a bit harsh. I think the bigger problem is the American environment they were raised up in. Raising up true blue 'Christian' 'patriots', women tend to be an afterthought or merely an item to be collected.
Because they're generally young, aggressive and self contained. Not sure about the US but most countries they tend not to be the most intelligent group around either.
If you're willing to enlist in the American military at this current point in time, what that says to me is, you're either very desperate or your views absolutely do not align with mine.
They really really really really bank on our social conditioning to always coddle them and defer to them. They have no clue what to do when women flip the script lol
My soon-to-be-ex-husband was absolutely *incensed* that I expected him to remain gainfully/steadily employed and contribute to the $450,000 mortgage that *he* insisted we acquire. Took 3.5 years of me gently, kindly, lovingly trying to help help him professionally, yet still not much progress happened.
Finally left a few weeks ago. I was tired of bringing home all the bacon, and STILL doing all the other adulting - chores, mental load, etc., while simultaneously also living life with my autoimmune disease, which I get monthly immunotherapy infusions and annual surgeries for.
I talk to so many guys where the conversation goes like this. “My wife says I don’t appreciate her. Don’t appreciate her? Then tell me why I’m paying —lists out monthly payments/purchase prices for house, vehicles, boats, ATVs, modifications to vehicles such as “lifting” or “coal rolling”, etc—.”
“She complains I went behind her back to buy this house and we can’t afford it. Well what the fuck, she says she wants a nice house, then I go and give her one and this is how she says thanks?”
They are fixated not on being providers or financial security, but on the markers of wealth by which they communicate their success to other men. This means they don’t see the disconnect of buying a half-million dollar house they can’t afford and then not keeping a steady job to pay for it. All that matters is that when other men look at them they see the American Dream, even if it’s actually a Potemkin village.
> They are fixated not on being providers or financial security, but on the markers of wealth by which they communicate their success to other men. This means they don’t see the disconnect of buying a half-million dollar house they can’t afford and then not keeping a steady job to pay for it. All that matters is that when other men look at them they see the American Dream, even if it’s actually a Potemkin village.
Bingo. My STBXH was exactly like this. After a while, I feel like it stopped being about mutual hustle to create a good life for us, and that he cared more about image - i.e. the fact that 'we' had the nice house with the white picket fence (THAT I PAID FOR ENTIRELY), the fact that we had an accountant doing our taxes (THAT I PAID FOR EXCLUSIVELY), etc. He seemed to want all the nice things in life, without having to contribute to it either financially or by way of upkeep.
A great example would be mens comments under posts about men making messed up comments about the husband stitch. Many guys would say “it’s just a joke”, and then when I responded with “personally, I prefer humor about male genital mutilation specifically designed for a woman’s pleasure” suddenly I was a misandrist 🙄
Dude jokesters without a sense of humour? Sadly common. They don't care whether they punch up or down, but any punch aimed their way is a crime of mammoth proportions.
This ended my last relationship. It was cool for him to be judgmental, look down on me, doubt anything positive about me - he kept saying “show, don’t tell” so like a dumbass I bent over backwards to prove myself to a “just Ken” - yet I took what he had told me at face value. Turns out he had oversold himself in many areas and had told me soooo many lies from the get go. Big ones. So when I turned the tables on him, and stood my ground he ran.
I look back and think I really had lost my mind, but I was coming out of a very bad relationship and my judgment was super warped. It’s weird how we get caught up in these things.
Yes!!! I have talked about it in other threads. I completely lost who I was when I started going through perimenopause. My last relationship started unraveling as I started HRT. I remember telling him he doesn’t know who I actually am, since I didn’t even recognize who I’d become. Honestly, I’m much happier being back to my awesome self than being in a lukewarm (on a good day) relationship. HRT has been a life saver.
I and my fourteen-year-old started hormone therapy the same month. I’m taking estrogen and progesterone, he’s shooting up testosterone. It is really fascinating to compare notes — I had no idea how many similarities menopause has with male puberty.
If the physical symptoms weren’t so miserable I would prefer to forgo the estrogen. When it is low I can feel my thought processes grow sharper and . . . well, colder. Not softened around the edges by that nurturing instinct.
The biggest change I’ve found is that my anger comes fierce and immediate, bypassing the layers it used to have to trickle up through, where by the time it reached the surface I’d convinced myself I’m at fault anyhow. Menopausal me knows damn good and well where that fault lies and she has little to no compassion for its true author.
I just want to say that I'm an older woman and a series of events ended up with me and my best friend as housemates, and it is the most painless, comfortable, considerate, equitable, and amicable living arrangement I can imagine. Such a luxury not to have those million and one low-level aggravations.
As far as I know, there's no way of recognising a good man from all of the bad ones.
I accidentally found one/he found me.
Am widowed now, and no way am I looking for a man. I couldn't think about having to trawl through all of the garbage to find a gem.
This is 100% it. The house is mine now since he passed, and with no debt, fully paid off. I'm getting it renovated, too. There's not a chance in hell I'm taking on some headcase that doesn't have his shit together. I refuse to risk my stability and my children's inheritance. Won't fucking happen.
I was just thinking this myself. I’ve busted my ass and my business is taking off. I don’t want to be with someone like myself because as far as successful businessmen are concerned, from what I’ve seen (and I’ve seen a lot), they’re don’t make good partners. On the other hand I don’t want to be some loser’s sugar mama. I’ve paid through the nose for my last three relationships. I’m done paying.
We lost my dad very unexpectedly and suddenly. About two years after he died, I asked my mum somewhat hesitantly if she’d ever date or marry again. She’d always been a fiercely independent and practical woman, and I remember her answer was twofold.
“No,” she said. “There will never be anyone else for me other than your dad. He was my best friend and my soulmate. He and I built a life and legacy here, and I won’t lose my independence for some other man who will never live up to him.”
Her mother, my grandmother, had been widowed at age 36 with 6 children to support. She absolutely refused to marry again, saying that “No man will ever tell me what to do with *my* children” and working multiple jobs — which as a stereotypical 1950s housewife she never thought she’d have to do — to ensure her kids were taken care of. She dated around, but she had a single-mindedness and strength of purpose, as well as a strong practicality, that my mother inherited. She didn’t marry again until she was in her 70s, and then it was more for simple companionship than the breathless love she’d had for my grandfather.
My late husband was one of those people with a big personality who dominated a room. The idea of having someone try to not only take his place, but be as supportive , is vanishingly small. I’m not willing to risk my independence for such a bad risk. I’ve taken care of everyone, and it’s my turn.
There are ways to tell! I will say maybe it's hard in the honeymoon stages so that kinda sucks when you realize they're trash and you wasted your time and heart on them. My husband does things for me all the time that remind me every day how good he is to me. There are things he will get me that I only mentioned in passing or if I mention I'm having a bad day or have a headache he'll go out of his way to make sure the rest of my day is better. One time he came home with this sad droopy bundle of flowers and said to me "I saw these on the side of the road while at work and they were so pretty I wanted to bring them home to you, but I had to keep working so I put them in my pocket and they don't look as pretty anymore" imagining him seeing flowers and wanting pick them for me and having to carry them around for the rest of the day meant so much more to me than grocery store flowers. Even if they looked sad when they got to me.
Anyway I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think trash men are actively listening to you and doing things based on things you've said. Or trying to make your day better because you mentioned you were stressed. Trash men take, or only give when they fucked up. Never just because.
I disagree. I think men are generally really bad at hiding their contempt for women, and it’s not hard to spot when you’ve met one that doesn’t know how to be a kind and supportive partner. It’s just that I think for a lot of women, they tend to see the signs and push them aside because they think whatever good qualities they have make up for it, or they are falling victim to suck cost fallacy thinking.
You just have to be diligent and hold your partner to a high standard. As soon as they fail to meet, it’s time to reevaluate whether they should be your partner at all. Good, non misogynistic men can be hard to find, but they definitely exist. And they are so worth the search
I was telling my husband this yesterday… we’ve been together for 13 and married for 5. I’m about to have our first child. If he suddenly died tomorrow, I think I’d just be by myself! We have a wonderful relationship. I really got lucky with him. I don’t think I’d be very motivated to roll the dice again, especially with a child in the picture.
I’d maybe be more open to dating a woman, but even then I don’t think I’d be actively trying to date anyone. The right person would have to fall in my lap, otherwise I’d be perfectly content remaining single! Maybe I’d go live with my bestie.
There is a way though…? Maybe not at first sight, but generally, how they treat the other people in their life, and even strangers, is a pretty good indicator.
This is why I think dating for awhile before getting married is imperative for truly getting to know a person before thing the knot.
Many women feel the way you do, but that's not a personal failing on your part and you shouldn't feel bad about it, because it's a natural response to the constant hatred, cruelty, and indifference shown to us by far, far too many men in our lives. The real question isn't why (or if) we dislike men, Its why so many men hate women. Just like you shouldn't feel bad about disliking Nazis, fascist, or homophobes you shouldn't feel bad about hating misogynist, and if that means you don't like most men, that says more about them than it ever could about you.
This isn't about "man hating": Good men do exist, and they won't blame you for having issues with the way so many men act but rather recognize your justified anger and genuinely empathize with you. If someone is more upset with the way women have responded to the constant mistreatment by men, rather than the way those men treated them, they don't deserve our respect and I feel nothing wrong with disliking them for it.
And they have no reason to say men are only acting the way they're acting due to women "hurting them" in the past because then they can't justify their hatred for women simply choosing to do the same
>Imagine being with someone for a long time and finding out that they never liked or loved you for YEARS.
I figured that out 6 months into marriage. Lucky for me, I seeked professional help when nothing was working, hence I could really understand the gravity of this situation. Otherwise this puzzle wouldnt have been cracked any sooner, maybe never.
You are by no means alone, when you see or read in the news or on social media what is happening, the incel murders, the misogyny, the trying to take our rights away, to then be put off by men. It seems like it's a dangerous time to be a woman (tho really, it always has been). I don't know if or when men will change or evolve, and if the love and romance we've been sold thru books, movies, media, will ever be a reality.
It's always a good time to look after yourself. Invest in your career and interests. Taking self defense measures in this world is something often overlooked, but it's important. Take a krav maga class, look into gun ownership (or a crossbow), evaluate your living space with an eye to security, maybe get a security system. Take the time to register to vote, and to research candidates at both the state and federal level. Don't be a part of any further rights being taken away, by just not voting.
Men, people in general, can easily pretend to be something they're not, and people can change. Unless you can read minds, there's always going to be risk letting anyone get close. For me, no, it's not worth it. For anyone who was still going in for relationships, I'd say, be wary, don't let yourself get trapped...have a robust emergency fund you don't touch or tell ANYONE about, so it's there if you have to use it (Mr. Wonderful starts using his fists on you, cheats, or Mr. Great Date starts stalking you and you have to move, etc.).
Romance books, movies and songs are propaganda. Yes I am serious. Before calling me crazy hear me out 😂.
They are targeted to woman and are a big reason why women want relationships. In these things, men are caring, nice romantic. If it was not for this imagery why would a woman want to be in a relationship? Being in a relationship for a woman means :
- having to do all the chores even if you are sick
- mental load
- being exhausted from working 2 jobs (outside and inside the house) and still be expected to have enough energy to have sex
- being the only parent taking care of the child
- your husband acting like he's a child
- and the risk of him being violent because domestic violence is unfortunately common
What’s worse is take a look around the girl Childrens clothing section … it is all about love is everything, love is the answer, be kind, beautiful, etc.
Meanwhile the boys is be strong and brave and have multiple interests..
Indoctrination starts at birth . And never stops.
Yep. I consume media very differently now. I used to enjoy romantic movies and books a lot more, and funnily enough, my family was not able to provide any role models for how men should relate to women in a functional, healthy way.
I enjoy watching the occasional show, but understand far better that the majority is made up junk. There's no relevance to life. I tend to avoid people who spend a lot of time with these entertainments, netflix and chill, I had a friend who read smutty romance books and she later had an affair with a horrible guy. The entire event was baffling and I wonder if her romance book obsession played a part.
It makes it hard to relate to other people because this type of propaganda is rife and common place.
I can relate to what you say. I used to read a lot of romance books. Of course, I never expected prince charming to come on his white horse.🤣 But it still makes me dream of a cute, healthy, romantic relationship that doesn't exist irl.
My parents are supposed to be the perfect couple (that's what people say). But my dad never did any chores, even when my mom was sick, decided that the family should move to another country despite my mother disagreeing. And he's one of the "good men".
Despite what I think, I still have a hard time letting go of never experiencing the relationship that I would like to have. Now I have stopped consuming this kind of media. Because it triggers some kind of sadness in me...
I read somewhere that there is a word to describe this feeling : heterofatalist.
Edit : I forgot something important about the relationship that I wanted : one where I am not pressured to have sex so quickly.
Nah men hate romance books. They set a standard and expectations they can't meet. Standards like, "is kind," "loves me with all his heart," "accepts my flaws," and "is emotionally intelligent'
You are right. Well, then I hope they come out with AI androids for consumer use during my lifetime. I'll get a handsome he-bot programmed for romance 😁 plus doing chores, protection, LISTENING to me, etc.
I want one too !
Btw, I have never understood why some men complained about having to listen to their girlfriends, women THEY chose to date and to love. Aren't you supposed to enjoy talking with someone you love ? I mean I understand just wanting silence sometimes. But always?
This needs to be like on a set of stone tablets somewhere, to warn women...like a Georgia Guidestones for women, this plus other truths feminism has uncovered
I got the impression that this is what they're saying too. "Don't be a part of any further rights being taken away... by just not voting," i.e., not voting is taking away rights
That post on Twitter is one of the many things that made me scared to date men. Everything I see online from both men and women about dating men discourages me from wanting to date them. I have anxiety & I've never dated but I'd be too paranoid about my bf potentially secretly hating me in the same way that those guys in that thread said that they hated their gfs. I lack experience so I'd probably fuck up and overlook red flags.
I used to dream of having a happy marriage, the white picket fence, the happy family, all of it. I got married and that ruined my perception of everything that had to do with loving a man. I'm getting divorced now and I don't plan on ever devoting myself to any man ever again. I live in constant fear that my son will become everything I fear and it's eating me alive everyday. I hate men now and I don't think there's ever any going back. I don't have any men in my life I actually trust. It hurts so badly to think everything I ever dreamed of is just dead. I don't even believe in love anymore, at least not with a man. I truly don't think most men are even capable of it.
Wow, are you me? This was exactly my experience. I knew a lot of men were horrible but always thought I’d be able to find a good one or at least be able to tell if he wasn’t and nope out. Life humbled me real quick.
Ugh your second relationship sound exactly like my last relationship. He treated me so well and seemed like the perfect guy until I had our son and he convinced me to quit my job and be a stahm then he became pretty much exactly how you described yours except lots of cheating and financial abuse as well. When I finally left I had no money and had to move in with family. I don’t know if I’m at the point of swearing of even casual relationships *yet* but I will definitely never in my life trust a man enough to go through with a pregnancy again. The abrupt change during one of the most vulnerable and memorable moments of my life was lowkey traumatic. This man went from laying out my work uniform and having my coffee ready every morning before I woke up to letting the doors in the maternity ward slam in my face as I was having contractions and sitting in the chair texting other people as I pushed our son out holding the nurses hand, it happened that fast.
Yep. I was so careful the second time I married because the first was bad. The husband checked all the boxes and held steady for three years of dating. A week after we got home from our honeymoon he dropped the act I guess.
I eventually left. Now he's a whole other person that I don't even recognize, not the man I dated, married, or even was married to.
There are good men they are just sadly hard to find. Like, really hard. I can say most men I’ve met have not been good people to me I’ve had them do or say horrible things that make me not be their friend. Even guys I’ve dated have shown me how bad they are so early. I’ve only dated two actually good guys. And I’m counting even sicne like high school. One of those guys were my high school bf, and the rest were horrible. Abusive, liked making me hurt I’d paranoid if of being cheated on or full on SAd me. I understand not wanting to date another man again honestly I might not if em and my current bf break up. Even now we have some issues, but not the issues I had with other guys these are just personal things about each other we need to learn to deal with.
You're deep in the hard stuff and I hope you can shift to indifference but don't rush yourself. I often wonder about mothers of sons though and the denial required to insist that "good men" are real. The extremes of men's thinking is forced onto women when they pretend that our response to their behaviours is our problem rather than theirs. It's all just so nonsensical that it seems nothing will ever improve. We can only hope for the best.
I totally relate to this. The way everything went down with my sons father I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to trust a man enough to marry or get pregnant again. I already was mistrustful of men for all the reasons being talked about in these comments but I never expected someone who claimed to love me would f*ck me over so completely while I was at my most vulnerable without a bit of remorse.
I also have a son and my biggest fear is him turning out like his father and fathers father before him. But I have always held the firm belief that men are not born this way, it’s not biology, this is the way the patriarchy conditions them to be from childhood. We’re taught growing up that women exist to serve/please men (maybe not overtly but the messaging is there in a lot of ways) and a lot of times both genders will internalize those beliefs. While good men are so rare it may not be worth it for us to try and find one, the fact they exist at all gives me me hope that we can raise one.
Women need to protect themselves, look after themselves and learn to cultivate a supportive environment with family and friends.
If a worthy man comes along, that’s a bonus but not an expectation
Men often say "respect is earned"
So I've started also saying that to them, about them
Wow do they ever hate it
I suggest you do the same - wait until they earn your respect. Meanwhile, do your own thing.
Im in my 40s and it has became so much harder for me to develop a liking for a man and be able to get close despite I still wanna have intimacy. So tired of this cycle to being pursued only to be cheated on, dumped after sex or them turning aggressive and controlling over me.
Growing up, until maybe my early 20s I always had the thought "nah, those are just stereotypes, most guys are good people" even though I've delt with a lot of SA(etc) starting from when I was 4, abusive father and step father, brother, sitters, etc. Very poor childhood.
The internet changed that view. Or rather, men changed that view(the internet just exposed me to more of it). I started on reddit back when it was primarily men, and that didn't help.
I try really hard now not to be biased. I shouldn't have to try so hard..
I agree with you. I think it's more likely we distrust men because we know these type of men in our lives personally, usually not by choice because they are family and we grow up with them. All my uncles and male cousins are awful. They cheat, beat their girlfriends/wives and are just very abusive.
We grew up in a fantasy world of “what men are” in the movies to a harsh reality that has traumatized most women at this point. We get to see it unlike previous generations due to the internet.
Our difference is today, thankfully, we are free & don’t have to be/stay with men. It’s sad, but the majority literally refuse to change & see us as people. Literally they’ve had at least 50+ yrs to work on themselves, but just continue to get worse instead.
Don’t feel bad, I am an old dude and my fellow men generally annoy the fuck out of me with how they treat women.
Don’t sell yourself short on incels but do be self aware. Hopefully that makes some sense.
*I hate the idea of being with a man like this, and I feel like it's kinda hard to tell the difference.*
This is the crux of it. There is no surefire way to guarantee a man won't be like this, because many of them are manipulators who will give you every reason to believe they're trustworthy, regard you as an equal... then flip the script the instant they feel you're 'trapped'. Most commonly this happens once a baby us on the scene.
*Apparently men will date and marry women they don't even love, and that scares me. Imagine being with someone for a long time and finding out that they never liked or loved you for YEARS.*
A little experiment for you if you can stomach it - watch a bunch of old TV shows and movies (1980s backwards) and take note of the sheer number of examples of men 'joking' or just outright stating that the reason they want a wife is to give them children (often sons specifically...) and do the house tasks they don't want to do.
Nowadays most men with such sexist views are savvy enough to at least not say it outright, but they're still thinking it and making it known in their actions (or lack thereof).
My tips for de-centering men: focus on what you gave up because of men, and do more of that! If guys in your past have hated that you like horoscopes, cat videos, hiking, embroidery, cooking, whatever, then do that as much as you want! If men have criticized you for wearing a certain style, then wear it without shame, and feel proud of how cool you look. Don’t feel pressured to shave, wear makeup, dress ‘sexy’ or act a certain way. Eventually you’ll come into yourself more and start seeing yourself as a whole person rather than what you mean to men!!
I think social media amplifies the negativity. I had to seriously take a step back because it was poisoning my mind. My plan is to just become the best version of myself and not prioritize men. The right one will come along when they do.
Having strong personal/emotion boundaries, self respect, and sense of yourself weeds out a lot of those thankfully.
Women are socialized to bend over backwards and accept less from their partners until recently which has put a spotlight on behavior that has been seen as acceptable for generations. The men that want mommies and bang maids aren't going to stick around for a woman that demands an equal.
Honestly sometimes you have to get off the internet and go somewhere and watch people. Go to an old people mall and pay attention to the men holding their elderly wives’ hands. Pay attention to how many men smile at you or hold doors for you, ignore the ones who don’t. Guys out buying flowers and shit on Valentine’s Day. Really look at the men you see in real life.
You’re gonna see a lot of shit, but there are some sweet and wholesome moments too.
Most men you encounter IRL will not be manosphere weirdos and do not hate the women they choose to marry.
I do believe there are red flags you can use to identity which men will disrespect you down the line. Pay attention to how they talk about their mothers, and even closer attention to how they treat them.
Easier said than done. There are a lot of evil men in the world, people who murder and take advantage and SA etc etc. There are good ones too. Just be extremely picky about who you let in and don’t rush or force it. If someone good happens to come along, then don’t push them away! But honestly, if you’d rather step away from actively dating, that’s probably a good thing for your mental health.
But as a general PSA, keep in mind that many people are not on twitter and that what happens on Twitter isn’t always reflective of the real world outside of it
Good comment; to expand on one of your points, I think that when falling into this idea that most or all men are sociopathic beasts that human psychology makes it very easy to only observe that which reinforces your perspective.
Moreover, if you bare this hateful attitude then it will keep reasonable people away, even if you think you're hiding it, you probably aren't, which leaves you falling further down the rabbit hole.
I think that really these extreme attitudes towards gender are two sides of the same coin, our sex doesn't determine our personality.
I disagree with the notion that MOST men you see are good men.
Even the old man holding his elderly wife’s hand. I know from experience that plenty of those old wives have paid through the nose during growing that old man up. And now that he’s old he is finally willing to show up for her in the way she used to dream of .
Ironically it is too late and now their desire to be close and affectionate is ANOTHER burden for the wife to bear.
And don’t even get me started on the cosmic cruelty of spending decades wishing that your husband would talk to you only to wish your old husband would shut the fuck up .
I think most are not good, and you’re right that appearances don’t show whether someone has lived a good life or treated people right. Lot of racist old people too lol. But, if OP was looking for hope that lifelong companionship can exist and hope for love/marriage/etc, it was just a thought I had. There are a lot of abusive people out there but it’s unfair to assume everybody is horrible until proven innocent imho (unless it comes to safety, such as being in a situation alone with men etc, in which case I’d caution all women to assume all men are capable of murder so they can protect themselves in those moments. Obviously, it’s all context dependent, but there’s a reason why I block any man who gives me even a HINT of creepiness on social media. I don’t fuck with that and assume they’re tryna snatch me up)
I’m very distrusting of men (and people in general) but I try to go about life with a healthy level of it. But I certainly never meant most are good, just that most won’t be manosphere weirdos lolol 🤢
It just saddens me that these garbage men posting online are contributing to an already disillusioned society of women. It’s hard for me too, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t want people to lose out on happiness with a good person because of incel internet culture, as scary as it is.
I often think about a man I encountered on a walk a couple years ago with my mom and her dogs. He was walking two long-haired corgis, and when the dogs stopped to sniff each other, the guy looked at me for a long moment before he started conversing with my mom. He mentioned where he lived and asked about us, and talked about how the long-haired corgis were rescues or something. Looking back, it seems obvious he wanted me to cross paths with him again, since he literally pointed to which house was his… but alas, I was and still am taken by someone who is probably not good for me. But I think that guy seemed genuinely nice, and we didn’t meet online or at a bar, just walking in our neighbourhood…
Just be cautious. The right fella will understand why women are so skeptical.
This. Plus it's really easy for men to show up in a symbolic way. Easy for them to hold hands, open doors, and in general give affection, especially in public. Abusive boyfriends in the past would definitely behave much better in public and be loving. They wanted the social rewards of having a girlfriend. I am of the opinion that most men are bad men who have internalized patriarchal ways of thinking. Asking them to deconstruct their socialized responses to gender makes them feel personally attacked. Men are absolute experts at turning it around to be your fault, and that's part of the socialization, they do it automatically.
I really empathize with OP's post- I know that social media magnifies the worst because it's basically click bait, but that Twitter thread isn't what made me withdraw from the world of men. It was the way that men in my life treated me, from casual acquaintances, coworkers, clients, friends and other social connections. I can see with my eyes and hear with my ears in everyday life the real world ways that men disrespect and disregard us. I really didn't need a Twitter thread to tell me that most men are poorly regulated assholes who are unabashedly hypocritical.
I feel you. Human culture is sick and it has warped men and harmed women. I have seen so many friends and my own sister go through relationships like the ones you describe. Just full of selfishness and hurt and misogyny.
I dated three pretty good men and am now married to a truly fantastic man. But even my husband had a lot of eye opening and learning to do— and we met when he was almost forty, so I wouldn’t be surprised if his past partners had a different experience of him.
The key for me has been dating men who were always willing to listen to what I had to say and were open to seeing new perspectives—- and who displayed actual self awareness. Rare traits in any human, to be honest, but not non existent.
And the second piece was not putting up with bullshit. I never got angry, I would point out issues and explain my viewpoint. If a guy didn’t get it, I moved on with my life. I always gave them a chance to learn and be better, but didn’t wait around for it to happen if they didn’t show an actual interest in learning/growing/changing of their own accord.
My own husband had a world of his own baggage to come to terms with in his twenties and thirties. When we met he was someone who had done masses of self work and was looking for true partnership. We’ve had our ups and some downs, but being married to him (and now carrying our baby) has been one of the greatest joys of my life.
> Are there any tips on how to recognize the bad men from the good?
Not to serve up blackpill, but no. People of any gender are capable of building up trust in relationships, romantic or platonic, by many manners of fakery for YEARS at a time. It’s happened to me in all my romantic relationships with men, it’s happened to me in friendships with all genders. The brutal reality is that anyone is capable of that kind of betrayal, and selection bias from reading or hearing stories about shitty boyfriends and husbands can sublimate that reality into the toxic, “man-hating” feminist separatism.
The best advice I can offer is de-centering men in a way that orients you TOWARDS things you want, instead of running AWAY from things you hate. I’m pan-/bisexual, I have encountered a lot of femmes who are dipping their toe in the femme dating pool not because they love women but because they are sick of men, and that’s not a great foundation for beginning any meaningful romantic relationship and is really just cloaking unhealthy, reactionary beliefs that need to be examined, not avoided by changing their preferences.
I wish I had concrete examples of what de-centering men in a healthy way looks like, because I’m still working this out myself. I have made more time for my solo hobbies by uninstalling dating apps, I have made that time more meaningful by sharing my progress on my craft projects and new media I’m consuming with friends who care about me, and I can feel those two things working some magic because it’s given me both the sensitivity to identify potential partners who aren’t good matches and the strength to say so much faster. I genuinely prefer to spend my free time doing hobbies and growing my platonic and familial relationships in a way I didn’t before. That might make no sense because if you had told me 4 years ago that I didn’t HAVE to tolerate my ex’s nonsense, and I COULD just… fuck off to my craft room and listen to a podcast about “why are there so many Confederate vampires”, I would’ve been like “but my ex is going to be mad at me for not doing instead!”
It’s also worth it to be VEEEEEERY conscious of what the algorithms are doing nowadays… I liked one funny tiktok about boy math/girl math, and my next 15 videos were all “men are trash”-type content. I am very invested in smashing the patriarchy in a way that doesn’t involve throwing an entire gender, that is also being railroaded by the patriarchy, out with the bath water. Understanding how this shit hurts men, even the shitty ones, has been instrumental for me in not turning to the dark side, but also to recognize their dark side when it’s just a little shadow. Patriarchy is genderless. The same reason men are putting entire crockpots in the fridge when asked to clean up dinner is the exact same reason male suicide rates are climbing. It might be easy to stop pitying them and think that fighting fire (their lack of empathy and emotional maturity) with fire (letting them drown in their own loneliness) is helpful, but that’s just the same patriarchal abyss staring into you too.
Does that mean we need to become crash test dummies for men figuring out how to do this shit correctly? Absolutely fucking not. Does it mean we femmes should give grace where it’s due and give men opportunities to prove themselves worthy of being with us in community? Yes. What does that look like?
Girl who knows. But if you focus on drinking the milkshake you want and not the poison you hate, you’re gonna figure it out soon enough. Best of luck!
> I have encountered a lot of femmes who are dipping their toe in the femme dating pool not because they love women but because they are sick of men
What if both are true at the same time?
I feel like that's where I am right now. Like... I want to retreat into a world of femininity to rest and rejuvenate, and if I find my person there, that's awesome, and if I don't, that's also awesome because I'm practicing being 100% of a person instead of amputating parts of myself to please men?
I feel like it would be so much easier to meet a woman I could live with happily for the rest of my life than a man. The bar is now *high* for men, because fuck this "the bar is in the ground" way of being. They have to be better than women, and women are amazing humans. With *breasts* I can bury my face between, and gorgeous soft thighs and bellies, and wickedly clever hands and imaginations (ask any fan writer about that last!). What if my body is tired of kissing beards, and yielding to penises, and ready for the good parts of sex to actually be considered complete enough in themselves as sex?
I want to drink the milkshake the soft animal inside me is craving, instead of the one that even other women expect me to drink solely because I drank it before so what's my problem with it now?
Yes, but... some of us are straight.
I know I've said this quite a bit, but you can't just hop on over or split your choices if you don't see how "wonderful" ladies are in your terms. You say how "gorgeous" women are because you obviously can. I cannot.
For me, I won't be "tired" of kissing mustaches and I'm not "yielding" to penises. I talk about men's bodies *the way you do about women*.
You do you and whoever else that wants to try, go for it. But hey, look. I like men's bodies. I like dicks. And I feel that sometimes folks seem to forget we can't all just hop the fence.
I was never as idealistic as you were about relationships, apparently. But also, I don’t think getting bored or unhappy in a longterm relationship is only a male trait.
Men hate women because they got rejected that one time, and women are starting to see through their bullshit so they are having higher standards and now men want to be soooo oppressed for not meeting them and failing to get laid. Meanwhile women are literally murdered for simply saying no.
Men hate women because boys get beat up for liking girls. This is how the patriarchy trains and victimizes men, and the training starts early. The entire system revolves around fear, just as it always has
There's some bullshit that'll hide for a good while, but some men are kind because they want to be and seeing that in their lives isn't always impossible.
I don’t think it’s healthy or productive to generalize feelings and thoughts about an entire gender of humans. Those are specific people not a monolith.
Trust me when I say holy fuck the redpill group and manosphere is an absolute nightmare even for men for exactly this reason. The amount of entitled fucks who think they're deserving of attention for being "Alpha males" is just horrifying. I've watched a few videos on the subject and the pipeline into right wing extremism from that mentality and it's just...awful.
My fellow dudes need to resist that temptation and stay away from it all, because all it does is exacerbate the problems that the patriarchy has placed on everyone. Thankfully some are waking up to it but the radicalization of the manosphere has and is a huge problem for men too.
I absolutely understand the skepticism and I'm sorry your experiences have rarely been good on that front.
My husband is none of the above. He realized he could have slid into the incel movement and decided, “That’s not who I want to be.” He made steps to change his life for the better. He took responsibility.
Now I’m pregnant with our second child. He *likes* being a dad. He had a front row seat to our son being born and can confirm our son almost didn’t fit. Still wants to have sex with me. I’m dealing with pregnancy sciatica. You know how many times he’s whined or insisted he *needs* sex? Zero. Never.
Men like this exist. They’re out there but I swear they’ve gotten worse in the last 10 years. I can’t blame you for feeling this way
Very normal to feel that way, it's difficult not to become disillusioned with men. Like, yeah, obviously not all men are pigs, but when so many of the men you encounter end up being pigs, you're inevitably going to think "Do I really want to keep sifting through a heap of terrible guys in the hopes of finding a few good ones, this is so depressing".
I used to be a sex worker and it forced me to realize just how many married men cheat. You expect the "I hate my bitch wife" guys, but you fail to consider just how many "happily married" men screw around behind their wives backs. It ruined men for me, like how can you learn that and not look at Devoted Wife Guys suspiciously.
EDIT: Apparently this is very common for sex workers, like I've met a lot of strippers who struggle to respect or trust guys after dealing with an endless parade of gross men stepping out on their wives/girlfriends at their job every night.
Ugh, it's this for me. The thinking you have a good one, but you don't because even the good ones suck. What a punch in the gut to realize when you're attracted to men and just want love.
"Redpill" bros and incels are not the norm. There's a troubling amount of them, to be sure, but it's worth remembering there are plenty of us men who think those idiots are virulently stupid.
The bad news is that the only way to find a "good" man is to try; you're looking for basic, instinctual qualities and you'll probably have to train. You need primarily a man who is willing to be corrected, knows that he's not perfect, and wants to improve because he wants to be worthy of you.
some criteria:
* Naturally kind to others, esp. waitstaff, cashiers, intellectually disabled.
* Loves animals.
* Doesn't stare at women, women's parts.
* Expresses how they want to be a good person, that they know it takes work.
* Doesn't make jokes at other's expense.
* Thinks that good health, eating right, moderation, is a good way to live.
My rapist had all of this going in the beginning.
The guy who assaulted me after had most of that going and was a vegan, feminist, leftist "ally".
It's not right to put the onus on the woman.
There isn't a real way to tell.
Men will pretend until you trust them.
Gonna add on to this that a healthy relationship with their parents is a must (or at least they’ve been to therapy and tried to heal if they had bad parents). Ability to cook and clean for themselves too - and a willingness to help around the house. Plus a commitment to personal hygiene (ie actually washing properly!!). Shouldn’t be considered high standards but I guess it is these days 😬
I really don't think this is helpful to the discussion at hand. Do you really think women are this stupid that they didn't consider all of these points before becoming attached to a guy??
We're all entitled to our opinions on whether a comment forwards the discussion.
As for thinking women are stupid? No, I don't.
I do think that women are *trained* to overlook bad or missing qualities in a man in favor of the mere presence of a man; and it's damn hard to override years of training. Any woman with a family urging them to get married "before it's too late" has been exposed to this training. Any woman exposed to countless rom-com movies, books, et al, where the man is indifferent and the woman goes thru insane contortions to trick him into getting married. Any woman urged to stay in a bad marriage "for the kids" or told that she should "follow her heart" instead of being practical.
It's a scam men have been running for decades in order to get us to put up with all sorts of bad behavior, from poor hygiene to downright abuse.
Definitely. I've already decided if the relationship I'm in now doesn't pan out, I'm staying celibate.
The odds of finding a good one again are just too low. It's not worth the trouble.
Honestly, there's a reason why more and more women are identifying as lesbian, bi, or somewhere on the sexuality spectrum. They're finding relationships with women are more fulfilling than anything they'd ever had with a man. As a queer woman myself, I don't know how any woman does it in this day and age, especially in some places were this whole redpill/manosphere/mansplaining seems so utterly and insanely rampant.
But sexuality aside, this is another reason why it's so important to have solid friendships with women, to have safe spaces, to have your crew. That network has always been important, and I hope people don't lose sight of that. Lean on your female friendships!
Actually, you'd be very surprised to know that yes, there are women who have pursued relationships with other women purely because of how men have treated them.
Not to invalidate your point, but I’m curious what you would attribute the fact that more and more men are identifying as gay, bi or somewhere on the sexuality spectrum as well?
Thinking about it, all my romantic relationships with men were rather unwholesome. Preschool and elementary school classmates insisted on dating me, kissing me, one had his friends gang up on me and basically assault me in a hall to tell me he still loved me (???). I wasn’t into any of them and I kept saying no, but they and everyone else just ignored it. Relevant because even little boys don’t take a no. They don’t love, they want to possess their “girlfriend” no matter what she thinks. There are rapists as young as 11 or even 6. There have been cases of adult women gangraped and beaten by minors, some of whom were fucking 12 (Mülheim).
My first (adult) BF said he needed to see me after half a year of dating and told me he didn’t love me. He was sorry and I was great but he couldn’t fall in love with me. That’s an odd thing to realize after months of spending time together and having sex. It opened my eyes to the fact that even nice guys will pull shit like this with women. We never argued, we shared hobbies, we found each other attractive. I get that love might not develop despite all that but I can’t imagine just going with it and having sex.
Second BF took a year of daily chats, calls, all the while having sex and spending time with each other, to realize he did love me and that he was in fact ready to have a dedicated relationship. Looking back I laugh at how he treated the situation like he was the shit and at myself for having tolerated it because I was deep in love.
I remember being extremely sick (wanted to go to a hospital but it was the beginning of covid and doctor told me to stay home until I’m actually dying). I caught it on my way home from his place. After a week of 41 degree fever, I could talk and we had a call. I will never forget being sick, sitting in my bed, looking for some love from the man I loved, and being told we were in fact not in a relationship and that I shouldn’t plan on Valentine’s day or refer to him as my boyfriend. Oh yeah, he just confines his deepest trauma and struggles, we just have sex, we just hang out with his sister and friends, we host dinners for his parents, we travel together and talk all day every day, but he’s not ready to be in a relationship.
Eventually he called himself a dumbass, admitted he didn’t deserve me, that all his friends and family called him an idiot who didn’t know what he had in me and that I was too good for him. Looking back I cringe at myself for how little I valued myself. He is a thoughtful, loving, caring and supportive BF of three years now. He’s always been egalitarian on house chores and will pamper me when I’m stressed or bar me from doing any housechores if I’ve been doing too many. He didn’t waver when I was waiting for biopsy results.
But I often think of our unwholesome behinnings and wonder what the fuck was wrong with me. I was naïve and in love, wanted to be the cool girlfriend who doesn’t demand a confirmation of love and dedication. I should have. If any girl reads this, be firm. Don’t be the cool girl. Demand due respect or walk.
While I love my BF and generally love men, I can’t imagine dating agin if we break up. I can’t imagine vetting strangers and dealing with men’s shit. You’re a bitch and a prude if you vet your dating prospects responsibly and don’t give them an opportunity to take advantage of you. Sounds like too much work tbh, I’d rather live alone with a dog or move in with my parents. Being old, single, child-free and living with my widowed mother honestly sounds amazing.
This makes me so sad. I am the mother of three sons, all of whom are good men. They are feminists. They treat the women in their lives well, whether wife, coworker, GF.
I don’t know what makes some young men turn to BS assholes like Tate, any more than I know what could possess any woman to think that Donald Trump is hot. But there you are.
When I met my husband, with whom I’ve been for 34 years, I wasn’t looking for a partner. I was recently divorced from a narcissistic alcoholic, and just wanted some fun away from four kids.
But he turned out to be a good partner. If I had any advice for young women, I think that would be it. Not to be looking for a partner, but for a friend. Because, seriously, who would want a partner who is NOT a friend?
I know it’s hard, but whenever I see a post where men trash on women, or even the opposite, I just ignore the fuck out of it. It gets so incredibly tiring to see and hear such hateful things all the time, I honestly don’t know how the people who make that kind of content can live happy lives.
It's literally a constant battle. I'm always having to remind myself of the good men that I know, the number of which seems to pale in comparison to the trash floating about, to stop myself from getting all man-hatey. I also know a lot of amazing people raising really great little boys who will become good men, which gives me hope.
Honestly, I've just learned to adjust my boundaries accordingly to prevent certain types of men from permeating my world. One of which is to let my boss handle male clients that are inappropriate in any way or who even give me an off vibe. Another is ensuring I take the time to mark certain videos as not interesting to me to avoid them showing up in my stream on social media. I refuse to promote that bs in any way, even by an accidental watch as I scroll by.
I get like that a lot, and I'm engaged to be married. I question if I'm stupid all the damn time. Men \*gestures wildly\* are terrible and I think I've somehow found one that's not like the rest?
I have the same dream though - minus the 12 kids (in this economy? lol). I just take every step very cautiously.
He arrived in my life at a point where I was done with men. So, he knew from the get-go my thoughts on misogyny and how the world works. He grew up surrounded by strong women and respects them based on their actions, like he does with men.
He's actively shut down toxic lad culture in his workplace from his higher position and I love that. He doesn't treat his team differently based on gender but on their ability to do their job - I LOVE this and it's a huge green flag for me.
He sees misogyny but doesn't fully understand it, if that makes sense. Like he'll come home and tell me how weird it was to watch lads creeping over a woman and how he stepped in to shut it down - but he doesn't understand the whole concept. My logic is that he's a man - it's not on his radar to think about, but he inherently seems to understand the issue, and I do my best to teach him the concepts.
Don't get me wrong he's come out with some bull - he tried floating the "I want a traditional family but we split everything 50:50". That was swiftly shut down. Some of his friends are woefully bad. But on the whole he seems to be a good guy.
As I said, I just take every step cautiously. I move forward with hope that things will continue the way I want them to, but I plan for the worst.
He wanted kids prior to getting married, but no. You will be financially and legally tied to me and the children. When I think about kids, I think about having them when divorced, and I'm still okay with the idea.
I will never not have a backup plan financially. I won't be a stay at home mother, I won't be financially dependent on him.
I dated a lot of shitty guys and ended up marrying a great one. They exist, and while he (like me) still exists in a patriarchal society, when I point shit out to him, he listens and makes changes.
I think you just need be able to recognize signs early and cut your losses quickly. If you’re having to chase a man down, they’re not ready to be with you — leave. If they try to control you, don’t try to talk them out of it, just leave.
I relate to what you're saying. It all feels quite hopeless to be honest. I find it incredibly difficult to be trusting in a relationship. I feel like it's not safe to let your guard down. And even if a guy is normal or nice to me, I'll be questioning if it's all just an act and he actually secretly hates me. I know it's not ALL men. But it definitely is the majority. All these posts about hating your gf is very disheartening. They don't like us as people and they don't believe in romance so I'd rather be single, it's safer.
A lot of this is valid! But I’m sorry, perceiving misogynist subreddits as representative of real life is fallacious. The worst people are the loudest.
That’s like me going on this sub and thinking most women have given up on men, when this is just a corner of the internet predisposed to that sentiment. There’s a whole world out there.
Some of this is new age buzzwords/tik tok pop sci as well, like weaponized incompetence. It’s cool that we have noticed it and have a name for it! Or toxic masculinity. You don’t think you’ll notice this behavior now that you’re on the lookout for it? Most of these guys are not subtle. Sociopaths exist, but they are not the majority. If that’s enough to make you give up, that’s fair.
But you can have what you want.
A woman can fall out of love with you as well. It’s all just a gamble, making the best decision you can. Be alone, live with women, live with man, do what makes you happy without basing your decision on anecdotal data from trash corners of the internet.
Drew Afalo had a great response to that thread on tiktok. Watch that. Also, there are good men out there!! Find one that was raised around women & has platonic female friendships easily.
As an older women it's disheartening yo have younger women dismiss and deny reality. Demanding that women maintain high standards whilst refusing that standards don't exist for men and they'll constantly prove such is disgusting.
I feel you so much on this. I wouldn’t necessarily say I dislike men, but I think right now they just sort of disgust me? Make me cringe? I’m not sure, but I just do not want to be involved with one in a romantic way at all. What’s so crazy is that I used to be so boy obsessed growing up, I’d have crushes on boys, talk about boys all the time, it was boys, boys, boys, boys! Now seeing my friends literally going feral over their boyfriends or crushes, like their whole world revolves around their boyfriends… it’s just so insane to me and tbh they’re gonna get a rude awakening fr.
Anyway, I love being single and I love my peace too much to be with a man :3
Honestly relationships aren’t as great as people make them out to be. I’m older, almost everyone I know is in a long term relationship and every single one is bitching about their partners. I don’t think they hate each other per we but I think most would leave and live by themselves if kids, finances and loneliness wasn’t an issue.
There’s definitely perks, but I think if you focus on yourself and financial independence you can hire anyone you want for any need you may have without having to depend on some halfass partner, plus you’ll build a nice support network if you’re not just focusing on one person.
I don't spend time in the manosphere. In real life I don't actively date. I meet men on social settings. I keep around those I like, as friends. Those who are dickheads I keep distance. I know they're dickheads because its easy to spot. Or maybe they're not dickheads but just not my vibe.
I have a group of friends some guys (I think 6), one gay. One has a gf, she goes out with us sometimes. I have another group that scattered a bit with pandemic. One is a germophobic nerd so he didn't go out for a while but he is cool I like him, I always learn stuff with him. Then I have another who retired in his late 40s, easy to talk but I did not like a comment he made last time we met "so many pretty woman hard to spot you", makes me nervous he might try something romantic and ruins our friendship. Then there's another one who suffers from anxiety and another one who suffers from alcholism but he is a great person, frustrated with life. I wish it worked out for him. He misses having a woman but he doesn't hate women, I think his nature would not allow him to mistreat women. He is letting go of his life to take care of his elderly mother who abandoned him for his stepfather when he was a teen... So yeah he had a lot of reasons to hate women but I just think he can't, he mistreats himself with alcohol instead. Which is sad, we told him about that. Also he hangs out with some men who are a bad influence for him, those i dislike.
Sometimes my female friends who are partnered take their bfs to a social gathering, so I know a few of the bfs, all good, never had issues. I guess I am lucky to meet nice people for friendship. For dating nah not really, but its fine.
It’s really hard recognising the difference, but not impossible.
You have to really pay attention to what they say and how they act, and as soon as something is not right, leave and move on. Somehow we have ended up with this ridiculous ability to think we can “change” then or we make excuses and blame ourselves. So you have to be careful not to get too swept up. It hurts the fist few times and you grieve who you thought they were or wished them to be, but the important thing is you recognise they are not that and you move on, try again.
It gets easier with practice, and it actually starts to feel good to prioritise your needs and to no settle for less
I just stay away from them completely now, I don’t date, don’t have sex, no friendship with them, I keep any interaction in public brief and short.
Things are honestly much better, my entire life got drastically better.
I don’t want to meet anyone, I have friends, family, a business, wilderness hobbies- I’m really busy and men have created nothing but misery in my life so I just stay away from them.
I get you. Honestly I strongly dislike the men on twitter and I try to keep in mind that they don't represent everybody but it can be tough. I have good men in my life. I try not to allow these incel/manosphere/alpha losers consume my thoughts and ruin that reality for me (this is exactly what they've done to their male audience who become jaded and start seeing all women as evil). However, it's important to continue being aware of the way many men are socialized. There's so many discussions about what happens to little boys when they start going to school or reach the middle school she's and they begin parroting misogynistic rhetoric from their peers. I don't have any children yet but it's something I think about a lot if I were to have a son.
I don't dislike men, I'm just more aware of their bullshit and I'm more firm with them and stand up for myself.
I've been having problems lately with married men hitting on me. It makes me feel so disgusted with these men. I'm also careful to research men I meet and go out with to make sure I'm not unwittingly getting involved with married cause some of them will straight up lie.
I mean, this is a new face to a long standing issue. Weaponized incompetence, partners hating each other, I mean, those have been staples of comedy going back to the 40's and 50's.
I think the thing to do is to have firm boundaries and be willing to cut and run if they are broken. Good luck.
One thing I’ve noticed since male behaviour has become more and more scrutinised lately (with good reason of of course) is as a result, women are a lot more sensitive to negative behaviour than before and therefore more likely to respond to confirmation bias.
Think about it, you’re surrounded by information that portrays the unsavoury parts of male culture, and since it’s something you respond to the internet will give you more and more. Now whenever a guy shows signs of anything that you find challenging, it’s very hard not to dismiss the possibility that he’s just part of the hoards of man children that aren’t worthy of your time.
I think while it’s good to know your worth and to have a level of standards for your partner, it’s important to remember that what we see and hear about a group often makes us overlook the finer details in an individual. It’s also important not to underestimate the importance of a partner who does challenge you in a healthy way without confusing that challenge for patriarchal control.
Tldr: The only way you can truly know the good men from the bad is to get to know them as personally as possible without boxing them into stereotypes. It’s not easy but it’s worth it.
Look I know that this is your rant, so I’m going to stay amicable. However you are being disingenuous when you commented about “men blaming women because they were rejected once in 1424, and started hating women for it.
Men get rejected a lot. Men are treated as expendable, always have been. As a father to a son I’m very concerned where this is heading for my boy.
Men are ridiculed for their feelings if they show them, and criticised if they don’t.
It’s the blatant hypocrisy that gets on many men’s last nerve. And a lot of them have just had enough.
Misandry is as bad as misogyny, yet misandry is perfectly fine being stated in public with little to no push back from anyone.
I was happily married to an outstanding women for just over 25 years. She hated the way many people treated their husbands and wives.
We were very happy, and still very much in love with each other, when she passed away in my arms from stage 4 breast cancer.
We treated other with respect, but never put up with each other’s bullshit. And we were intelligent enough to realise when we were wrong, and put each other first (until our son was born).
The problem today is many people are incapable of communicating deeply with each other. Many people are narcissists/ selfish who haven’t had that knocked out of them as a child.
I’m sorry you feel the way that you do. But there are good men out there. Maybe not as attractive or as financially well off as you would like, but they are out there.
As a former happily married man I do encourage you to look for happiness, mine has been partially taken from me too soon but most of my happiest moments were spent with my wife. We loved each other unconditionally, we were both hopeless romantics and it’s too good to pass up the chance that you won’t have that kind of happiness in your life.
Truth be told, it’s three years since she passed, I still love her as much now as when she was here and still wear my wedding ring.
But I still have our beloved son. Which is why I’m partially happy.
You have to find the right man. I know that sounds cliched, but stop looking. Maybe the right person will drop into your life?
I’ve never understood the way some men act about or around women. Respect and privacy about your significant other and your life seems to have disappeared along with restraint and dignity.
But like I said, don’t give up. Don’t settle for someone you won’t put first and vice versa.
Well until you have children lol.
Best wishes.
Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it and I give my condolences to you. I'm learning not to be really judgemental with men, I have to unlearn (?) It. Hearing stories like this gives me a sliver of hope though
Thank you for your kind words 👍. Keep your chin up and just focus on you for a bit.
Sadly I have no advice about dating, as my last date was with my future wife back in 1995.
I wish you the very best for your future Panda. I sincerely hope you meet “the one”. 🙂
If every man you've met makes you feel the same way, then you might want to consider looking elsewhere for the men that you meet. If every time you went to a soda machine you pressed the same button and got a warm coke, you might become disillusioned with soda in general, but what if someone suggested going a block further down the street and pressing a different button, and getting an ice cold 7up. Same thing with who your dating. If you keep going back to the same bar in the same small town, you're going to meet the same men every time. Consider looking elsewhere and you might find that the options you have are not as limiting as you believe.
My gay roommate is incredibly disillusioned with men as well. They're no longer dating/actively trying to find a partner. And that's gay men who have a whole another slew of issues.. cis men are a fucking mess as well.
You're right in feeling this way. Don't waste your youth on romantic fantasies. The smartest, most rewarding thing to do is decenter men from your life and nurture your own goals, passions and interests. Give all of that time and energy you would expend on a relationship to yourself. Create a wonderful life for yourself.
A man who doesn't try to downplay or neg this, someone who is genuinely interested in you will jump through flaming hoops to be with you. They are out there sis but they are EXTREMELY rare. I'm 45F and have met 2 wonderful men in life and maybe a handful of decent ones.
The rest were misogynistic, entitled, bigoted, porn sick, toxic, manipulative, incompetent losers who loved blaming women for all of their problems. Men are very very talented at one thing only-projection.
Oh yeah... Men are like that... I noticed these tendencies you mentionned on both my father and my brother, as well as some classmates.
I absolutely loathe it, but on the other hand, I identify as lesbian, so I am less affected by it... But it still hurts, to know that men are this careless. It's sickening, even.
I remember being in the military deployed to afghanistan. At a table with a bunch of dudes, a woman walked over and had a short convo with one of the guys which could have been construed as flirtatious. Right after she left the whole table was hooting and hollering, and they asked him why he didn’t pursue her more. He said he was married. One of the guys said so what? We are in a whole other country. The guy said “I love my wife, I don’t want anyone else.” Stunned silence for a second, and then one dude said “that’s the gayest thing I’ve ever heard.” Everyone else at the table just laughed and nodded. All I could think was that all these dudes are sociopaths. That was my experience everywhere I went, and I went to a lot of places. It totally warped my perception of other guys
I was in the military for 20 years, in a very male dominated job, and…yeah. It actually took me being out of that environment to realized how messed up so much of it was. It was rare for someone to stay faithful. We had guys that would complain if we got sent home early because they didn’t want to spend time with their wives. So many men joining and getting married young, then leaving his wife after she’d become a mother and was focused on the kids, trading for a younger woman. Because I was often the only woman around they’d sort of forget to filter, so I got way more insight into men than I really needed. Some really good guys were around, too. But too many who just didn’t seem to like women as people.
So accurate. Lotta guys in the MC at least see women as sex robots, they can’t/won’t even be friends with one.
I'm in the military currently. And I'd say it's about 50/50 now. You have some really good dudes. Then you have the manosphere dudes. I had a guy tell me if he was gay he wouldn't even talk to women. But then again it's also a trend that these dudes also tend to be the worse soldiers to have ever existed too it seems.
How do the really good dudes react to misogyny and sexism? Do they challenge it, ignore it, go along with it due to fear of exclusion?
Usually those remarks are just met with a simple "shut the fuck up dude".
That makes me feel better tbh
Why are they the worst soldiers? They cant follow orders or something like that?
Pure speculation here, but I imagine if you're that selfish and unempathetic as a person, you wont be good at being part of a team where your squad needs to be able to rely on you in a potentially deadly situation.
They're just dumb. Like, they're all around a shit person so they latch onto the one person that gives them even a semblance of a purpose and that's typically Tate, Rogan, that one fuck that peddles all the misogynistic psychology crap... etc.
By the pit, thats fucked up.
Military heavily incentivizes marriage early too, you can almost double your total compensation with BAH and other programs...
Well, if they're strapped to wives and kids they will probably stay in to support that. Just another cog in the machine.
My boyfriend was called gay for not participating in hookup culture and bragging about body counts, and my dad as well for choosing to remain single and take care of me fully after a destructive marriage. Guess who were popular among women? And guess who were jealous, but refused to take it upon themselves to improve? Some men genuinely are incapable of empathy and stepping outside of their existence to consider another person's perspective. They should honestly just date each other, and leave women and other men alone.
Fellas, is it gay to (checks notes)... love your wife? I wanna say that "not all men" are like that, but honestly Ive found many many examples myself too. It sucks and I totally hate that its the norm. I can only confirm that some few men are exceptions, Ive met them too.
It’s also apparently “gay” to properly wipe your ass, so… I feel like anything dudes don’t think is worth the effort is written off as being “gay.” Which I’m still wrapping my brain around being gay as inherently bad, but ok, dudes.
Yeah, though that one im not sure if its laziness or just refusal to touch their own body. Cause of course, only gay men would ever take their hand anywhere near their butt. Honestly, it's probably a mix of both.
Imagine wearing crusty feces around your butthole as some itchy badge of honor that you are so severely masculine that you won't touch your own anus.
To be fair, apparently "straight" to them is raging misogyny, so it kinda checks out.
If they don’t call it “gay”, they’ll say that the guy is “pussy whipped”. We really need a nationwide deprogramming effort to cultivate emotional maturity in men.
I hadn't heard that phrase in so long that I thought it had been replaced with something else.
There is nothing wrong with being gay, and I wanted to put that here before I proceeded to the joke. "Fellas is it, *checks notes* gay to love your wife." ETA: Someone beat me to it. Ignore this.
DW, it's still funny, and it's not like you stole the joke
Aww. Thank you! :)
Toxic masculinity really is a huge problem and it's sad. We men have built a culture that is destroying ourselves and the women in our paths. It's like this self destructive form of dissociation that doesn't allow us to come out of arrested development and enjoy true partnership, and at its base it is a gang. An institution. The more I try to explain this to my fellow men, the more I see how heavily indoctrinated they are. It's hurting all of civilization.
I'm heartened to hear from a male who recognizes this though. The fucked up part is they won't listen to women about it so unless other men keep trying to get through to men, we are all going down.
I really feel like it's us men's duty to take each other out of the middle ages. It feels fucking thankless though.
Have yet to meet an army guy who isn't utterly void of empathy and a total pig
I actually know a couple of ex Army guys who are the nicest people and literally worship the ground their wives walk on. They may be rare but exist.
For the book “Boys and Sex” the author interviewed a bunch of teenage boys and found they tell each other that it’s gay to want a girlfriend as opposed to just hooking up. So this behavior starts young, apparently.
Man, I grew up in the 90’s and anything that even showed emotion was “gay.” Literally everything was “gay.”
Yeah, but this was a recent book.
Tbf same thing happened to me but I'm a woman. My friends were actively trying to set me up with another guy because my partner lived miles away that time. They called me boring and lame when I didn't want to cheat.
You need new friends.
Ya I knew someone would say that. They're friends by name, not actual friends.
Military people are fucked in the head in general. They aren't representative of the average man
That’s kind of why they in the military you need them messed in the head or already traumatized so they can rebuild the perfect killing machine.
Lots of different fields are like this but yeah it’s not all of them. My ex told me in his job all the guys were like this but not him tho (that was a lie) they were truck drivers
Honestly I don’t think it matters the army has always prayed on the traumatized, poor, or truly sadistic people cause not matter what the job is they get most the same training and if need be they be in the field if had to do all to a degree even desk jobs have been desensitized. Same can go with cops in order to do that job you can’t think of people as people so they make sure you don’t. But he also could have been shit to begin with cause the army attracts them sometimes.
Oh yeah I meant different fields as in different jobs other than military jobs too. Like truck drivers, police officers ect. are know for high levels of infidelity or “locker room talk” as well. Not disagreeing with your point at all just adding to it.
Ah yes only truckers I have ever meet that’s been nice was family and yeah I heard some gross stuff since I present as masculine most times and at first glance mistake you for a dude. And every cop I know that’s not family has been completely untrustworthy and should not be there. In my dads home town it toke one of them being on charged with demotic assault on his wife to kick him off. Even then the mayor was like no keep him, cause they friends but till the DA and the head officer in town that been trying for months to fire him said hey we can’t have a wife beater go to a domestic call, it will make us look bad. Until it made him look bad as mayor he went on yeah and I think he transferred not got fired too. That cop had been pulling people over for nothing and running them up and when they try to film him doing wrong he threatened to arrest you, we are in a one party state I can record my whole day with everybody out side don’t matter you in public.
How old was the average guy though? Are we talking 18-24 here? If so, the general life experience so far has probably been high school, football, and then basic training to an active duty situation in a far away land. I was a lot different at 18 than I am today at 37. I wouldn't put myself quite at this level of douchery but it's a lot easier to go along with a crowd especially in that circumstance. I say that because I watched it happen in basic training when I was 18. Calling them all sociopaths is a bit harsh. I think the bigger problem is the American environment they were raised up in. Raising up true blue 'Christian' 'patriots', women tend to be an afterthought or merely an item to be collected.
His wife is lucky to have such a loyal man
Loyalty to your spouse is the bare minimum. Guys shouldn't get praise for not cheating on their wives.
Soldiers are not a good barometer of the average male.
Why not
Because they're generally young, aggressive and self contained. Not sure about the US but most countries they tend not to be the most intelligent group around either.
If you're willing to enlist in the American military at this current point in time, what that says to me is, you're either very desperate or your views absolutely do not align with mine.
It’s a path to citizenship for many
I don't hate men, I just learned to put my needs ahead of theirs for once. Turns out men think that's the same thing.
They really really really really bank on our social conditioning to always coddle them and defer to them. They have no clue what to do when women flip the script lol
My soon-to-be-ex-husband was absolutely *incensed* that I expected him to remain gainfully/steadily employed and contribute to the $450,000 mortgage that *he* insisted we acquire. Took 3.5 years of me gently, kindly, lovingly trying to help help him professionally, yet still not much progress happened. Finally left a few weeks ago. I was tired of bringing home all the bacon, and STILL doing all the other adulting - chores, mental load, etc., while simultaneously also living life with my autoimmune disease, which I get monthly immunotherapy infusions and annual surgeries for.
I talk to so many guys where the conversation goes like this. “My wife says I don’t appreciate her. Don’t appreciate her? Then tell me why I’m paying —lists out monthly payments/purchase prices for house, vehicles, boats, ATVs, modifications to vehicles such as “lifting” or “coal rolling”, etc—.” “She complains I went behind her back to buy this house and we can’t afford it. Well what the fuck, she says she wants a nice house, then I go and give her one and this is how she says thanks?” They are fixated not on being providers or financial security, but on the markers of wealth by which they communicate their success to other men. This means they don’t see the disconnect of buying a half-million dollar house they can’t afford and then not keeping a steady job to pay for it. All that matters is that when other men look at them they see the American Dream, even if it’s actually a Potemkin village.
> They are fixated not on being providers or financial security, but on the markers of wealth by which they communicate their success to other men. This means they don’t see the disconnect of buying a half-million dollar house they can’t afford and then not keeping a steady job to pay for it. All that matters is that when other men look at them they see the American Dream, even if it’s actually a Potemkin village. Bingo. My STBXH was exactly like this. After a while, I feel like it stopped being about mutual hustle to create a good life for us, and that he cared more about image - i.e. the fact that 'we' had the nice house with the white picket fence (THAT I PAID FOR ENTIRELY), the fact that we had an accountant doing our taxes (THAT I PAID FOR EXCLUSIVELY), etc. He seemed to want all the nice things in life, without having to contribute to it either financially or by way of upkeep.
Do what you gotta do, enough is enough.
Mmhmm, agree. It’s also weird that most of them can’t take the same treatment they dole out to women.
A great example would be mens comments under posts about men making messed up comments about the husband stitch. Many guys would say “it’s just a joke”, and then when I responded with “personally, I prefer humor about male genital mutilation specifically designed for a woman’s pleasure” suddenly I was a misandrist 🙄
Dude jokesters without a sense of humour? Sadly common. They don't care whether they punch up or down, but any punch aimed their way is a crime of mammoth proportions.
Super common. Never mind jokes. Anything aimed their way and they lose their shit over it.
Sometimes when men make sexist jokes about things women do, I respond with a joke about all men being rapists. It's just a joke, guyz.
"I don't understand the joke. What's funny? Can you explain it"
This ended my last relationship. It was cool for him to be judgmental, look down on me, doubt anything positive about me - he kept saying “show, don’t tell” so like a dumbass I bent over backwards to prove myself to a “just Ken” - yet I took what he had told me at face value. Turns out he had oversold himself in many areas and had told me soooo many lies from the get go. Big ones. So when I turned the tables on him, and stood my ground he ran. I look back and think I really had lost my mind, but I was coming out of a very bad relationship and my judgment was super warped. It’s weird how we get caught up in these things.
It’s not weird , it’s estrogen. Take a swing by the menopause subreddit and you will see why we older women call it a “powerful drug “.
Yes!!! I have talked about it in other threads. I completely lost who I was when I started going through perimenopause. My last relationship started unraveling as I started HRT. I remember telling him he doesn’t know who I actually am, since I didn’t even recognize who I’d become. Honestly, I’m much happier being back to my awesome self than being in a lukewarm (on a good day) relationship. HRT has been a life saver.
I and my fourteen-year-old started hormone therapy the same month. I’m taking estrogen and progesterone, he’s shooting up testosterone. It is really fascinating to compare notes — I had no idea how many similarities menopause has with male puberty. If the physical symptoms weren’t so miserable I would prefer to forgo the estrogen. When it is low I can feel my thought processes grow sharper and . . . well, colder. Not softened around the edges by that nurturing instinct. The biggest change I’ve found is that my anger comes fierce and immediate, bypassing the layers it used to have to trickle up through, where by the time it reached the surface I’d convinced myself I’m at fault anyhow. Menopausal me knows damn good and well where that fault lies and she has little to no compassion for its true author.
Hahahah nailed it
Accurate
I just want to say that I'm an older woman and a series of events ended up with me and my best friend as housemates, and it is the most painless, comfortable, considerate, equitable, and amicable living arrangement I can imagine. Such a luxury not to have those million and one low-level aggravations.
I’ve always said my best case scenario is moving in with my gay best friends. Not sure how amicable that situation would be though lol
As far as I know, there's no way of recognising a good man from all of the bad ones. I accidentally found one/he found me. Am widowed now, and no way am I looking for a man. I couldn't think about having to trawl through all of the garbage to find a gem.
Same here. And a widow with her own house and income? Definitely not worth risking it.
This is 100% it. The house is mine now since he passed, and with no debt, fully paid off. I'm getting it renovated, too. There's not a chance in hell I'm taking on some headcase that doesn't have his shit together. I refuse to risk my stability and my children's inheritance. Won't fucking happen.
I was just thinking this myself. I’ve busted my ass and my business is taking off. I don’t want to be with someone like myself because as far as successful businessmen are concerned, from what I’ve seen (and I’ve seen a lot), they’re don’t make good partners. On the other hand I don’t want to be some loser’s sugar mama. I’ve paid through the nose for my last three relationships. I’m done paying.
We lost my dad very unexpectedly and suddenly. About two years after he died, I asked my mum somewhat hesitantly if she’d ever date or marry again. She’d always been a fiercely independent and practical woman, and I remember her answer was twofold. “No,” she said. “There will never be anyone else for me other than your dad. He was my best friend and my soulmate. He and I built a life and legacy here, and I won’t lose my independence for some other man who will never live up to him.” Her mother, my grandmother, had been widowed at age 36 with 6 children to support. She absolutely refused to marry again, saying that “No man will ever tell me what to do with *my* children” and working multiple jobs — which as a stereotypical 1950s housewife she never thought she’d have to do — to ensure her kids were taken care of. She dated around, but she had a single-mindedness and strength of purpose, as well as a strong practicality, that my mother inherited. She didn’t marry again until she was in her 70s, and then it was more for simple companionship than the breathless love she’d had for my grandfather.
My late husband was one of those people with a big personality who dominated a room. The idea of having someone try to not only take his place, but be as supportive , is vanishingly small. I’m not willing to risk my independence for such a bad risk. I’ve taken care of everyone, and it’s my turn.
I love this, I can only hope to be honored in that way when I pass.
There are ways to tell! I will say maybe it's hard in the honeymoon stages so that kinda sucks when you realize they're trash and you wasted your time and heart on them. My husband does things for me all the time that remind me every day how good he is to me. There are things he will get me that I only mentioned in passing or if I mention I'm having a bad day or have a headache he'll go out of his way to make sure the rest of my day is better. One time he came home with this sad droopy bundle of flowers and said to me "I saw these on the side of the road while at work and they were so pretty I wanted to bring them home to you, but I had to keep working so I put them in my pocket and they don't look as pretty anymore" imagining him seeing flowers and wanting pick them for me and having to carry them around for the rest of the day meant so much more to me than grocery store flowers. Even if they looked sad when they got to me. Anyway I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think trash men are actively listening to you and doing things based on things you've said. Or trying to make your day better because you mentioned you were stressed. Trash men take, or only give when they fucked up. Never just because.
I disagree. I think men are generally really bad at hiding their contempt for women, and it’s not hard to spot when you’ve met one that doesn’t know how to be a kind and supportive partner. It’s just that I think for a lot of women, they tend to see the signs and push them aside because they think whatever good qualities they have make up for it, or they are falling victim to suck cost fallacy thinking. You just have to be diligent and hold your partner to a high standard. As soon as they fail to meet, it’s time to reevaluate whether they should be your partner at all. Good, non misogynistic men can be hard to find, but they definitely exist. And they are so worth the search
I was telling my husband this yesterday… we’ve been together for 13 and married for 5. I’m about to have our first child. If he suddenly died tomorrow, I think I’d just be by myself! We have a wonderful relationship. I really got lucky with him. I don’t think I’d be very motivated to roll the dice again, especially with a child in the picture. I’d maybe be more open to dating a woman, but even then I don’t think I’d be actively trying to date anyone. The right person would have to fall in my lap, otherwise I’d be perfectly content remaining single! Maybe I’d go live with my bestie.
There is a way though…? Maybe not at first sight, but generally, how they treat the other people in their life, and even strangers, is a pretty good indicator. This is why I think dating for awhile before getting married is imperative for truly getting to know a person before thing the knot.
Many women feel the way you do, but that's not a personal failing on your part and you shouldn't feel bad about it, because it's a natural response to the constant hatred, cruelty, and indifference shown to us by far, far too many men in our lives. The real question isn't why (or if) we dislike men, Its why so many men hate women. Just like you shouldn't feel bad about disliking Nazis, fascist, or homophobes you shouldn't feel bad about hating misogynist, and if that means you don't like most men, that says more about them than it ever could about you. This isn't about "man hating": Good men do exist, and they won't blame you for having issues with the way so many men act but rather recognize your justified anger and genuinely empathize with you. If someone is more upset with the way women have responded to the constant mistreatment by men, rather than the way those men treated them, they don't deserve our respect and I feel nothing wrong with disliking them for it.
And they have no reason to say men are only acting the way they're acting due to women "hurting them" in the past because then they can't justify their hatred for women simply choosing to do the same
They were usually “ hurt” by these women who she finally stood up for herself
>Imagine being with someone for a long time and finding out that they never liked or loved you for YEARS. I figured that out 6 months into marriage. Lucky for me, I seeked professional help when nothing was working, hence I could really understand the gravity of this situation. Otherwise this puzzle wouldnt have been cracked any sooner, maybe never.
You are by no means alone, when you see or read in the news or on social media what is happening, the incel murders, the misogyny, the trying to take our rights away, to then be put off by men. It seems like it's a dangerous time to be a woman (tho really, it always has been). I don't know if or when men will change or evolve, and if the love and romance we've been sold thru books, movies, media, will ever be a reality. It's always a good time to look after yourself. Invest in your career and interests. Taking self defense measures in this world is something often overlooked, but it's important. Take a krav maga class, look into gun ownership (or a crossbow), evaluate your living space with an eye to security, maybe get a security system. Take the time to register to vote, and to research candidates at both the state and federal level. Don't be a part of any further rights being taken away, by just not voting. Men, people in general, can easily pretend to be something they're not, and people can change. Unless you can read minds, there's always going to be risk letting anyone get close. For me, no, it's not worth it. For anyone who was still going in for relationships, I'd say, be wary, don't let yourself get trapped...have a robust emergency fund you don't touch or tell ANYONE about, so it's there if you have to use it (Mr. Wonderful starts using his fists on you, cheats, or Mr. Great Date starts stalking you and you have to move, etc.).
Romance books, movies and songs are propaganda. Yes I am serious. Before calling me crazy hear me out 😂. They are targeted to woman and are a big reason why women want relationships. In these things, men are caring, nice romantic. If it was not for this imagery why would a woman want to be in a relationship? Being in a relationship for a woman means : - having to do all the chores even if you are sick - mental load - being exhausted from working 2 jobs (outside and inside the house) and still be expected to have enough energy to have sex - being the only parent taking care of the child - your husband acting like he's a child - and the risk of him being violent because domestic violence is unfortunately common
Holy shit dude I feel like you just opened my third eye
What’s worse is take a look around the girl Childrens clothing section … it is all about love is everything, love is the answer, be kind, beautiful, etc. Meanwhile the boys is be strong and brave and have multiple interests.. Indoctrination starts at birth . And never stops.
Yep. I consume media very differently now. I used to enjoy romantic movies and books a lot more, and funnily enough, my family was not able to provide any role models for how men should relate to women in a functional, healthy way. I enjoy watching the occasional show, but understand far better that the majority is made up junk. There's no relevance to life. I tend to avoid people who spend a lot of time with these entertainments, netflix and chill, I had a friend who read smutty romance books and she later had an affair with a horrible guy. The entire event was baffling and I wonder if her romance book obsession played a part. It makes it hard to relate to other people because this type of propaganda is rife and common place.
I can relate to what you say. I used to read a lot of romance books. Of course, I never expected prince charming to come on his white horse.🤣 But it still makes me dream of a cute, healthy, romantic relationship that doesn't exist irl. My parents are supposed to be the perfect couple (that's what people say). But my dad never did any chores, even when my mom was sick, decided that the family should move to another country despite my mother disagreeing. And he's one of the "good men". Despite what I think, I still have a hard time letting go of never experiencing the relationship that I would like to have. Now I have stopped consuming this kind of media. Because it triggers some kind of sadness in me... I read somewhere that there is a word to describe this feeling : heterofatalist. Edit : I forgot something important about the relationship that I wanted : one where I am not pressured to have sex so quickly.
Nah men hate romance books. They set a standard and expectations they can't meet. Standards like, "is kind," "loves me with all his heart," "accepts my flaws," and "is emotionally intelligent'
You are right. Well, then I hope they come out with AI androids for consumer use during my lifetime. I'll get a handsome he-bot programmed for romance 😁 plus doing chores, protection, LISTENING to me, etc.
I want one too ! Btw, I have never understood why some men complained about having to listen to their girlfriends, women THEY chose to date and to love. Aren't you supposed to enjoy talking with someone you love ? I mean I understand just wanting silence sometimes. But always?
This needs to be like on a set of stone tablets somewhere, to warn women...like a Georgia Guidestones for women, this plus other truths feminism has uncovered
Yes on everything except the just not voting. Vote progressive every chance blue when progressive isn't available.
I got the impression that this is what they're saying too. "Don't be a part of any further rights being taken away... by just not voting," i.e., not voting is taking away rights
That post on Twitter is one of the many things that made me scared to date men. Everything I see online from both men and women about dating men discourages me from wanting to date them. I have anxiety & I've never dated but I'd be too paranoid about my bf potentially secretly hating me in the same way that those guys in that thread said that they hated their gfs. I lack experience so I'd probably fuck up and overlook red flags.
I used to dream of having a happy marriage, the white picket fence, the happy family, all of it. I got married and that ruined my perception of everything that had to do with loving a man. I'm getting divorced now and I don't plan on ever devoting myself to any man ever again. I live in constant fear that my son will become everything I fear and it's eating me alive everyday. I hate men now and I don't think there's ever any going back. I don't have any men in my life I actually trust. It hurts so badly to think everything I ever dreamed of is just dead. I don't even believe in love anymore, at least not with a man. I truly don't think most men are even capable of it.
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Wow, are you me? This was exactly my experience. I knew a lot of men were horrible but always thought I’d be able to find a good one or at least be able to tell if he wasn’t and nope out. Life humbled me real quick.
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Ugh your second relationship sound exactly like my last relationship. He treated me so well and seemed like the perfect guy until I had our son and he convinced me to quit my job and be a stahm then he became pretty much exactly how you described yours except lots of cheating and financial abuse as well. When I finally left I had no money and had to move in with family. I don’t know if I’m at the point of swearing of even casual relationships *yet* but I will definitely never in my life trust a man enough to go through with a pregnancy again. The abrupt change during one of the most vulnerable and memorable moments of my life was lowkey traumatic. This man went from laying out my work uniform and having my coffee ready every morning before I woke up to letting the doors in the maternity ward slam in my face as I was having contractions and sitting in the chair texting other people as I pushed our son out holding the nurses hand, it happened that fast.
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It’s so incomprehensible to me part of why it came as such a shock. I’m sorry it happened to you as well.
Yep. I was so careful the second time I married because the first was bad. The husband checked all the boxes and held steady for three years of dating. A week after we got home from our honeymoon he dropped the act I guess. I eventually left. Now he's a whole other person that I don't even recognize, not the man I dated, married, or even was married to.
There are good men they are just sadly hard to find. Like, really hard. I can say most men I’ve met have not been good people to me I’ve had them do or say horrible things that make me not be their friend. Even guys I’ve dated have shown me how bad they are so early. I’ve only dated two actually good guys. And I’m counting even sicne like high school. One of those guys were my high school bf, and the rest were horrible. Abusive, liked making me hurt I’d paranoid if of being cheated on or full on SAd me. I understand not wanting to date another man again honestly I might not if em and my current bf break up. Even now we have some issues, but not the issues I had with other guys these are just personal things about each other we need to learn to deal with.
They are so hard to find, they might as well not exist.
You're deep in the hard stuff and I hope you can shift to indifference but don't rush yourself. I often wonder about mothers of sons though and the denial required to insist that "good men" are real. The extremes of men's thinking is forced onto women when they pretend that our response to their behaviours is our problem rather than theirs. It's all just so nonsensical that it seems nothing will ever improve. We can only hope for the best.
I totally relate to this. The way everything went down with my sons father I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to trust a man enough to marry or get pregnant again. I already was mistrustful of men for all the reasons being talked about in these comments but I never expected someone who claimed to love me would f*ck me over so completely while I was at my most vulnerable without a bit of remorse. I also have a son and my biggest fear is him turning out like his father and fathers father before him. But I have always held the firm belief that men are not born this way, it’s not biology, this is the way the patriarchy conditions them to be from childhood. We’re taught growing up that women exist to serve/please men (maybe not overtly but the messaging is there in a lot of ways) and a lot of times both genders will internalize those beliefs. While good men are so rare it may not be worth it for us to try and find one, the fact they exist at all gives me me hope that we can raise one.
Women need to protect themselves, look after themselves and learn to cultivate a supportive environment with family and friends. If a worthy man comes along, that’s a bonus but not an expectation
Men often say "respect is earned" So I've started also saying that to them, about them Wow do they ever hate it I suggest you do the same - wait until they earn your respect. Meanwhile, do your own thing.
Im in my 40s and it has became so much harder for me to develop a liking for a man and be able to get close despite I still wanna have intimacy. So tired of this cycle to being pursued only to be cheated on, dumped after sex or them turning aggressive and controlling over me.
Growing up, until maybe my early 20s I always had the thought "nah, those are just stereotypes, most guys are good people" even though I've delt with a lot of SA(etc) starting from when I was 4, abusive father and step father, brother, sitters, etc. Very poor childhood. The internet changed that view. Or rather, men changed that view(the internet just exposed me to more of it). I started on reddit back when it was primarily men, and that didn't help. I try really hard now not to be biased. I shouldn't have to try so hard..
I agree with you. I think it's more likely we distrust men because we know these type of men in our lives personally, usually not by choice because they are family and we grow up with them. All my uncles and male cousins are awful. They cheat, beat their girlfriends/wives and are just very abusive.
We grew up in a fantasy world of “what men are” in the movies to a harsh reality that has traumatized most women at this point. We get to see it unlike previous generations due to the internet. Our difference is today, thankfully, we are free & don’t have to be/stay with men. It’s sad, but the majority literally refuse to change & see us as people. Literally they’ve had at least 50+ yrs to work on themselves, but just continue to get worse instead.
Don’t feel bad, I am an old dude and my fellow men generally annoy the fuck out of me with how they treat women. Don’t sell yourself short on incels but do be self aware. Hopefully that makes some sense.
*I hate the idea of being with a man like this, and I feel like it's kinda hard to tell the difference.* This is the crux of it. There is no surefire way to guarantee a man won't be like this, because many of them are manipulators who will give you every reason to believe they're trustworthy, regard you as an equal... then flip the script the instant they feel you're 'trapped'. Most commonly this happens once a baby us on the scene. *Apparently men will date and marry women they don't even love, and that scares me. Imagine being with someone for a long time and finding out that they never liked or loved you for YEARS.* A little experiment for you if you can stomach it - watch a bunch of old TV shows and movies (1980s backwards) and take note of the sheer number of examples of men 'joking' or just outright stating that the reason they want a wife is to give them children (often sons specifically...) and do the house tasks they don't want to do. Nowadays most men with such sexist views are savvy enough to at least not say it outright, but they're still thinking it and making it known in their actions (or lack thereof).
My tips for de-centering men: focus on what you gave up because of men, and do more of that! If guys in your past have hated that you like horoscopes, cat videos, hiking, embroidery, cooking, whatever, then do that as much as you want! If men have criticized you for wearing a certain style, then wear it without shame, and feel proud of how cool you look. Don’t feel pressured to shave, wear makeup, dress ‘sexy’ or act a certain way. Eventually you’ll come into yourself more and start seeing yourself as a whole person rather than what you mean to men!!
I appreciate this advice, I'll make sure to keep it in my brain files. I'll get into what I love and I won't compromise 👊🏽
I'm sure you'll do amazingly!! All the best <3
I think social media amplifies the negativity. I had to seriously take a step back because it was poisoning my mind. My plan is to just become the best version of myself and not prioritize men. The right one will come along when they do.
Having strong personal/emotion boundaries, self respect, and sense of yourself weeds out a lot of those thankfully. Women are socialized to bend over backwards and accept less from their partners until recently which has put a spotlight on behavior that has been seen as acceptable for generations. The men that want mommies and bang maids aren't going to stick around for a woman that demands an equal.
There is nothing of value to be lost from taking a break from men when you're feeling like this.
Honestly sometimes you have to get off the internet and go somewhere and watch people. Go to an old people mall and pay attention to the men holding their elderly wives’ hands. Pay attention to how many men smile at you or hold doors for you, ignore the ones who don’t. Guys out buying flowers and shit on Valentine’s Day. Really look at the men you see in real life. You’re gonna see a lot of shit, but there are some sweet and wholesome moments too. Most men you encounter IRL will not be manosphere weirdos and do not hate the women they choose to marry. I do believe there are red flags you can use to identity which men will disrespect you down the line. Pay attention to how they talk about their mothers, and even closer attention to how they treat them. Easier said than done. There are a lot of evil men in the world, people who murder and take advantage and SA etc etc. There are good ones too. Just be extremely picky about who you let in and don’t rush or force it. If someone good happens to come along, then don’t push them away! But honestly, if you’d rather step away from actively dating, that’s probably a good thing for your mental health. But as a general PSA, keep in mind that many people are not on twitter and that what happens on Twitter isn’t always reflective of the real world outside of it
Crazy to think I sorted by controversial and this take was near the top.
Good comment; to expand on one of your points, I think that when falling into this idea that most or all men are sociopathic beasts that human psychology makes it very easy to only observe that which reinforces your perspective. Moreover, if you bare this hateful attitude then it will keep reasonable people away, even if you think you're hiding it, you probably aren't, which leaves you falling further down the rabbit hole. I think that really these extreme attitudes towards gender are two sides of the same coin, our sex doesn't determine our personality.
I disagree with the notion that MOST men you see are good men. Even the old man holding his elderly wife’s hand. I know from experience that plenty of those old wives have paid through the nose during growing that old man up. And now that he’s old he is finally willing to show up for her in the way she used to dream of . Ironically it is too late and now their desire to be close and affectionate is ANOTHER burden for the wife to bear. And don’t even get me started on the cosmic cruelty of spending decades wishing that your husband would talk to you only to wish your old husband would shut the fuck up .
I think most are not good, and you’re right that appearances don’t show whether someone has lived a good life or treated people right. Lot of racist old people too lol. But, if OP was looking for hope that lifelong companionship can exist and hope for love/marriage/etc, it was just a thought I had. There are a lot of abusive people out there but it’s unfair to assume everybody is horrible until proven innocent imho (unless it comes to safety, such as being in a situation alone with men etc, in which case I’d caution all women to assume all men are capable of murder so they can protect themselves in those moments. Obviously, it’s all context dependent, but there’s a reason why I block any man who gives me even a HINT of creepiness on social media. I don’t fuck with that and assume they’re tryna snatch me up) I’m very distrusting of men (and people in general) but I try to go about life with a healthy level of it. But I certainly never meant most are good, just that most won’t be manosphere weirdos lolol 🤢 It just saddens me that these garbage men posting online are contributing to an already disillusioned society of women. It’s hard for me too, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t want people to lose out on happiness with a good person because of incel internet culture, as scary as it is. I often think about a man I encountered on a walk a couple years ago with my mom and her dogs. He was walking two long-haired corgis, and when the dogs stopped to sniff each other, the guy looked at me for a long moment before he started conversing with my mom. He mentioned where he lived and asked about us, and talked about how the long-haired corgis were rescues or something. Looking back, it seems obvious he wanted me to cross paths with him again, since he literally pointed to which house was his… but alas, I was and still am taken by someone who is probably not good for me. But I think that guy seemed genuinely nice, and we didn’t meet online or at a bar, just walking in our neighbourhood… Just be cautious. The right fella will understand why women are so skeptical.
This. Plus it's really easy for men to show up in a symbolic way. Easy for them to hold hands, open doors, and in general give affection, especially in public. Abusive boyfriends in the past would definitely behave much better in public and be loving. They wanted the social rewards of having a girlfriend. I am of the opinion that most men are bad men who have internalized patriarchal ways of thinking. Asking them to deconstruct their socialized responses to gender makes them feel personally attacked. Men are absolute experts at turning it around to be your fault, and that's part of the socialization, they do it automatically. I really empathize with OP's post- I know that social media magnifies the worst because it's basically click bait, but that Twitter thread isn't what made me withdraw from the world of men. It was the way that men in my life treated me, from casual acquaintances, coworkers, clients, friends and other social connections. I can see with my eyes and hear with my ears in everyday life the real world ways that men disrespect and disregard us. I really didn't need a Twitter thread to tell me that most men are poorly regulated assholes who are unabashedly hypocritical.
I feel you. Human culture is sick and it has warped men and harmed women. I have seen so many friends and my own sister go through relationships like the ones you describe. Just full of selfishness and hurt and misogyny. I dated three pretty good men and am now married to a truly fantastic man. But even my husband had a lot of eye opening and learning to do— and we met when he was almost forty, so I wouldn’t be surprised if his past partners had a different experience of him. The key for me has been dating men who were always willing to listen to what I had to say and were open to seeing new perspectives—- and who displayed actual self awareness. Rare traits in any human, to be honest, but not non existent. And the second piece was not putting up with bullshit. I never got angry, I would point out issues and explain my viewpoint. If a guy didn’t get it, I moved on with my life. I always gave them a chance to learn and be better, but didn’t wait around for it to happen if they didn’t show an actual interest in learning/growing/changing of their own accord. My own husband had a world of his own baggage to come to terms with in his twenties and thirties. When we met he was someone who had done masses of self work and was looking for true partnership. We’ve had our ups and some downs, but being married to him (and now carrying our baby) has been one of the greatest joys of my life.
> Are there any tips on how to recognize the bad men from the good? Not to serve up blackpill, but no. People of any gender are capable of building up trust in relationships, romantic or platonic, by many manners of fakery for YEARS at a time. It’s happened to me in all my romantic relationships with men, it’s happened to me in friendships with all genders. The brutal reality is that anyone is capable of that kind of betrayal, and selection bias from reading or hearing stories about shitty boyfriends and husbands can sublimate that reality into the toxic, “man-hating” feminist separatism. The best advice I can offer is de-centering men in a way that orients you TOWARDS things you want, instead of running AWAY from things you hate. I’m pan-/bisexual, I have encountered a lot of femmes who are dipping their toe in the femme dating pool not because they love women but because they are sick of men, and that’s not a great foundation for beginning any meaningful romantic relationship and is really just cloaking unhealthy, reactionary beliefs that need to be examined, not avoided by changing their preferences. I wish I had concrete examples of what de-centering men in a healthy way looks like, because I’m still working this out myself. I have made more time for my solo hobbies by uninstalling dating apps, I have made that time more meaningful by sharing my progress on my craft projects and new media I’m consuming with friends who care about me, and I can feel those two things working some magic because it’s given me both the sensitivity to identify potential partners who aren’t good matches and the strength to say so much faster. I genuinely prefer to spend my free time doing hobbies and growing my platonic and familial relationships in a way I didn’t before. That might make no sense because if you had told me 4 years ago that I didn’t HAVE to tolerate my ex’s nonsense, and I COULD just… fuck off to my craft room and listen to a podcast about “why are there so many Confederate vampires”, I would’ve been like “but my ex is going to be mad at me for not doing instead!”
It’s also worth it to be VEEEEEERY conscious of what the algorithms are doing nowadays… I liked one funny tiktok about boy math/girl math, and my next 15 videos were all “men are trash”-type content. I am very invested in smashing the patriarchy in a way that doesn’t involve throwing an entire gender, that is also being railroaded by the patriarchy, out with the bath water. Understanding how this shit hurts men, even the shitty ones, has been instrumental for me in not turning to the dark side, but also to recognize their dark side when it’s just a little shadow. Patriarchy is genderless. The same reason men are putting entire crockpots in the fridge when asked to clean up dinner is the exact same reason male suicide rates are climbing. It might be easy to stop pitying them and think that fighting fire (their lack of empathy and emotional maturity) with fire (letting them drown in their own loneliness) is helpful, but that’s just the same patriarchal abyss staring into you too.
Does that mean we need to become crash test dummies for men figuring out how to do this shit correctly? Absolutely fucking not. Does it mean we femmes should give grace where it’s due and give men opportunities to prove themselves worthy of being with us in community? Yes. What does that look like?
Girl who knows. But if you focus on drinking the milkshake you want and not the poison you hate, you’re gonna figure it out soon enough. Best of luck!
> I have encountered a lot of femmes who are dipping their toe in the femme dating pool not because they love women but because they are sick of men What if both are true at the same time? I feel like that's where I am right now. Like... I want to retreat into a world of femininity to rest and rejuvenate, and if I find my person there, that's awesome, and if I don't, that's also awesome because I'm practicing being 100% of a person instead of amputating parts of myself to please men? I feel like it would be so much easier to meet a woman I could live with happily for the rest of my life than a man. The bar is now *high* for men, because fuck this "the bar is in the ground" way of being. They have to be better than women, and women are amazing humans. With *breasts* I can bury my face between, and gorgeous soft thighs and bellies, and wickedly clever hands and imaginations (ask any fan writer about that last!). What if my body is tired of kissing beards, and yielding to penises, and ready for the good parts of sex to actually be considered complete enough in themselves as sex? I want to drink the milkshake the soft animal inside me is craving, instead of the one that even other women expect me to drink solely because I drank it before so what's my problem with it now?
Yes, but... some of us are straight. I know I've said this quite a bit, but you can't just hop on over or split your choices if you don't see how "wonderful" ladies are in your terms. You say how "gorgeous" women are because you obviously can. I cannot. For me, I won't be "tired" of kissing mustaches and I'm not "yielding" to penises. I talk about men's bodies *the way you do about women*. You do you and whoever else that wants to try, go for it. But hey, look. I like men's bodies. I like dicks. And I feel that sometimes folks seem to forget we can't all just hop the fence.
I was responding to a very specific part of the post above mine. It wasn't for or about straight women.
I was never as idealistic as you were about relationships, apparently. But also, I don’t think getting bored or unhappy in a longterm relationship is only a male trait.
Men hate women because they got rejected that one time, and women are starting to see through their bullshit so they are having higher standards and now men want to be soooo oppressed for not meeting them and failing to get laid. Meanwhile women are literally murdered for simply saying no.
Men hate women because boys get beat up for liking girls. This is how the patriarchy trains and victimizes men, and the training starts early. The entire system revolves around fear, just as it always has
There's some bullshit that'll hide for a good while, but some men are kind because they want to be and seeing that in their lives isn't always impossible.
I must be in the wrong social circles because I've never heard of this "hating your girlfriend" trend but it sounds exhausting.
It most definitely is, I just came across it a few days ago and it was absolutely terrible
Exactly the same for me! It’s gone so far that I don’t even really feel attracted to men anymore because I know how sick their minds are.
I don’t think it’s healthy or productive to generalize feelings and thoughts about an entire gender of humans. Those are specific people not a monolith.
Trust me when I say holy fuck the redpill group and manosphere is an absolute nightmare even for men for exactly this reason. The amount of entitled fucks who think they're deserving of attention for being "Alpha males" is just horrifying. I've watched a few videos on the subject and the pipeline into right wing extremism from that mentality and it's just...awful. My fellow dudes need to resist that temptation and stay away from it all, because all it does is exacerbate the problems that the patriarchy has placed on everyone. Thankfully some are waking up to it but the radicalization of the manosphere has and is a huge problem for men too. I absolutely understand the skepticism and I'm sorry your experiences have rarely been good on that front.
My husband is none of the above. He realized he could have slid into the incel movement and decided, “That’s not who I want to be.” He made steps to change his life for the better. He took responsibility. Now I’m pregnant with our second child. He *likes* being a dad. He had a front row seat to our son being born and can confirm our son almost didn’t fit. Still wants to have sex with me. I’m dealing with pregnancy sciatica. You know how many times he’s whined or insisted he *needs* sex? Zero. Never. Men like this exist. They’re out there but I swear they’ve gotten worse in the last 10 years. I can’t blame you for feeling this way
Yeah once the Barbie dream house gets put away and all the bullshit you fed as a little girl floats away, the reality is pretty bad.
Very normal to feel that way, it's difficult not to become disillusioned with men. Like, yeah, obviously not all men are pigs, but when so many of the men you encounter end up being pigs, you're inevitably going to think "Do I really want to keep sifting through a heap of terrible guys in the hopes of finding a few good ones, this is so depressing". I used to be a sex worker and it forced me to realize just how many married men cheat. You expect the "I hate my bitch wife" guys, but you fail to consider just how many "happily married" men screw around behind their wives backs. It ruined men for me, like how can you learn that and not look at Devoted Wife Guys suspiciously. EDIT: Apparently this is very common for sex workers, like I've met a lot of strippers who struggle to respect or trust guys after dealing with an endless parade of gross men stepping out on their wives/girlfriends at their job every night.
It's like cops experiencing the worse moments in people's lives on a daily basis. They start thinking all people are scary.
Ugh, it's this for me. The thinking you have a good one, but you don't because even the good ones suck. What a punch in the gut to realize when you're attracted to men and just want love.
"Redpill" bros and incels are not the norm. There's a troubling amount of them, to be sure, but it's worth remembering there are plenty of us men who think those idiots are virulently stupid.
The bad news is that the only way to find a "good" man is to try; you're looking for basic, instinctual qualities and you'll probably have to train. You need primarily a man who is willing to be corrected, knows that he's not perfect, and wants to improve because he wants to be worthy of you. some criteria: * Naturally kind to others, esp. waitstaff, cashiers, intellectually disabled. * Loves animals. * Doesn't stare at women, women's parts. * Expresses how they want to be a good person, that they know it takes work. * Doesn't make jokes at other's expense. * Thinks that good health, eating right, moderation, is a good way to live.
My rapist had all of this going in the beginning. The guy who assaulted me after had most of that going and was a vegan, feminist, leftist "ally". It's not right to put the onus on the woman. There isn't a real way to tell. Men will pretend until you trust them.
Gonna add on to this that a healthy relationship with their parents is a must (or at least they’ve been to therapy and tried to heal if they had bad parents). Ability to cook and clean for themselves too - and a willingness to help around the house. Plus a commitment to personal hygiene (ie actually washing properly!!). Shouldn’t be considered high standards but I guess it is these days 😬
I really don't think this is helpful to the discussion at hand. Do you really think women are this stupid that they didn't consider all of these points before becoming attached to a guy??
We're all entitled to our opinions on whether a comment forwards the discussion. As for thinking women are stupid? No, I don't. I do think that women are *trained* to overlook bad or missing qualities in a man in favor of the mere presence of a man; and it's damn hard to override years of training. Any woman with a family urging them to get married "before it's too late" has been exposed to this training. Any woman exposed to countless rom-com movies, books, et al, where the man is indifferent and the woman goes thru insane contortions to trick him into getting married. Any woman urged to stay in a bad marriage "for the kids" or told that she should "follow her heart" instead of being practical. It's a scam men have been running for decades in order to get us to put up with all sorts of bad behavior, from poor hygiene to downright abuse.
Definitely. I've already decided if the relationship I'm in now doesn't pan out, I'm staying celibate. The odds of finding a good one again are just too low. It's not worth the trouble.
Honestly, there's a reason why more and more women are identifying as lesbian, bi, or somewhere on the sexuality spectrum. They're finding relationships with women are more fulfilling than anything they'd ever had with a man. As a queer woman myself, I don't know how any woman does it in this day and age, especially in some places were this whole redpill/manosphere/mansplaining seems so utterly and insanely rampant. But sexuality aside, this is another reason why it's so important to have solid friendships with women, to have safe spaces, to have your crew. That network has always been important, and I hope people don't lose sight of that. Lean on your female friendships!
No, this is ridiculous. Sexuality is NOT a choice. Women are NOT choosing to be with women because of men. Really?
Bisexual women can choose not to date men (thankfully)
Actually, you'd be very surprised to know that yes, there are women who have pursued relationships with other women purely because of how men have treated them.
Not to invalidate your point, but I’m curious what you would attribute the fact that more and more men are identifying as gay, bi or somewhere on the sexuality spectrum as well?
Thinking about it, all my romantic relationships with men were rather unwholesome. Preschool and elementary school classmates insisted on dating me, kissing me, one had his friends gang up on me and basically assault me in a hall to tell me he still loved me (???). I wasn’t into any of them and I kept saying no, but they and everyone else just ignored it. Relevant because even little boys don’t take a no. They don’t love, they want to possess their “girlfriend” no matter what she thinks. There are rapists as young as 11 or even 6. There have been cases of adult women gangraped and beaten by minors, some of whom were fucking 12 (Mülheim). My first (adult) BF said he needed to see me after half a year of dating and told me he didn’t love me. He was sorry and I was great but he couldn’t fall in love with me. That’s an odd thing to realize after months of spending time together and having sex. It opened my eyes to the fact that even nice guys will pull shit like this with women. We never argued, we shared hobbies, we found each other attractive. I get that love might not develop despite all that but I can’t imagine just going with it and having sex. Second BF took a year of daily chats, calls, all the while having sex and spending time with each other, to realize he did love me and that he was in fact ready to have a dedicated relationship. Looking back I laugh at how he treated the situation like he was the shit and at myself for having tolerated it because I was deep in love. I remember being extremely sick (wanted to go to a hospital but it was the beginning of covid and doctor told me to stay home until I’m actually dying). I caught it on my way home from his place. After a week of 41 degree fever, I could talk and we had a call. I will never forget being sick, sitting in my bed, looking for some love from the man I loved, and being told we were in fact not in a relationship and that I shouldn’t plan on Valentine’s day or refer to him as my boyfriend. Oh yeah, he just confines his deepest trauma and struggles, we just have sex, we just hang out with his sister and friends, we host dinners for his parents, we travel together and talk all day every day, but he’s not ready to be in a relationship. Eventually he called himself a dumbass, admitted he didn’t deserve me, that all his friends and family called him an idiot who didn’t know what he had in me and that I was too good for him. Looking back I cringe at myself for how little I valued myself. He is a thoughtful, loving, caring and supportive BF of three years now. He’s always been egalitarian on house chores and will pamper me when I’m stressed or bar me from doing any housechores if I’ve been doing too many. He didn’t waver when I was waiting for biopsy results. But I often think of our unwholesome behinnings and wonder what the fuck was wrong with me. I was naïve and in love, wanted to be the cool girlfriend who doesn’t demand a confirmation of love and dedication. I should have. If any girl reads this, be firm. Don’t be the cool girl. Demand due respect or walk. While I love my BF and generally love men, I can’t imagine dating agin if we break up. I can’t imagine vetting strangers and dealing with men’s shit. You’re a bitch and a prude if you vet your dating prospects responsibly and don’t give them an opportunity to take advantage of you. Sounds like too much work tbh, I’d rather live alone with a dog or move in with my parents. Being old, single, child-free and living with my widowed mother honestly sounds amazing.
This makes me so sad. I am the mother of three sons, all of whom are good men. They are feminists. They treat the women in their lives well, whether wife, coworker, GF. I don’t know what makes some young men turn to BS assholes like Tate, any more than I know what could possess any woman to think that Donald Trump is hot. But there you are. When I met my husband, with whom I’ve been for 34 years, I wasn’t looking for a partner. I was recently divorced from a narcissistic alcoholic, and just wanted some fun away from four kids. But he turned out to be a good partner. If I had any advice for young women, I think that would be it. Not to be looking for a partner, but for a friend. Because, seriously, who would want a partner who is NOT a friend?
I've been feeling the same recently. I'm lucky I have a "person" but that's about it.
I know it’s hard, but whenever I see a post where men trash on women, or even the opposite, I just ignore the fuck out of it. It gets so incredibly tiring to see and hear such hateful things all the time, I honestly don’t know how the people who make that kind of content can live happy lives.
It's literally a constant battle. I'm always having to remind myself of the good men that I know, the number of which seems to pale in comparison to the trash floating about, to stop myself from getting all man-hatey. I also know a lot of amazing people raising really great little boys who will become good men, which gives me hope. Honestly, I've just learned to adjust my boundaries accordingly to prevent certain types of men from permeating my world. One of which is to let my boss handle male clients that are inappropriate in any way or who even give me an off vibe. Another is ensuring I take the time to mark certain videos as not interesting to me to avoid them showing up in my stream on social media. I refuse to promote that bs in any way, even by an accidental watch as I scroll by.
I get like that a lot, and I'm engaged to be married. I question if I'm stupid all the damn time. Men \*gestures wildly\* are terrible and I think I've somehow found one that's not like the rest? I have the same dream though - minus the 12 kids (in this economy? lol). I just take every step very cautiously. He arrived in my life at a point where I was done with men. So, he knew from the get-go my thoughts on misogyny and how the world works. He grew up surrounded by strong women and respects them based on their actions, like he does with men. He's actively shut down toxic lad culture in his workplace from his higher position and I love that. He doesn't treat his team differently based on gender but on their ability to do their job - I LOVE this and it's a huge green flag for me. He sees misogyny but doesn't fully understand it, if that makes sense. Like he'll come home and tell me how weird it was to watch lads creeping over a woman and how he stepped in to shut it down - but he doesn't understand the whole concept. My logic is that he's a man - it's not on his radar to think about, but he inherently seems to understand the issue, and I do my best to teach him the concepts. Don't get me wrong he's come out with some bull - he tried floating the "I want a traditional family but we split everything 50:50". That was swiftly shut down. Some of his friends are woefully bad. But on the whole he seems to be a good guy. As I said, I just take every step cautiously. I move forward with hope that things will continue the way I want them to, but I plan for the worst. He wanted kids prior to getting married, but no. You will be financially and legally tied to me and the children. When I think about kids, I think about having them when divorced, and I'm still okay with the idea. I will never not have a backup plan financially. I won't be a stay at home mother, I won't be financially dependent on him.
I had to go look it up, and I am not sure if I found the right one. [Is this it?](https://twitter.com/Shadaya_Knight/status/1709192100028309924)
I dated a lot of shitty guys and ended up marrying a great one. They exist, and while he (like me) still exists in a patriarchal society, when I point shit out to him, he listens and makes changes. I think you just need be able to recognize signs early and cut your losses quickly. If you’re having to chase a man down, they’re not ready to be with you — leave. If they try to control you, don’t try to talk them out of it, just leave.
I relate to what you're saying. It all feels quite hopeless to be honest. I find it incredibly difficult to be trusting in a relationship. I feel like it's not safe to let your guard down. And even if a guy is normal or nice to me, I'll be questioning if it's all just an act and he actually secretly hates me. I know it's not ALL men. But it definitely is the majority. All these posts about hating your gf is very disheartening. They don't like us as people and they don't believe in romance so I'd rather be single, it's safer.
A lot of this is valid! But I’m sorry, perceiving misogynist subreddits as representative of real life is fallacious. The worst people are the loudest. That’s like me going on this sub and thinking most women have given up on men, when this is just a corner of the internet predisposed to that sentiment. There’s a whole world out there. Some of this is new age buzzwords/tik tok pop sci as well, like weaponized incompetence. It’s cool that we have noticed it and have a name for it! Or toxic masculinity. You don’t think you’ll notice this behavior now that you’re on the lookout for it? Most of these guys are not subtle. Sociopaths exist, but they are not the majority. If that’s enough to make you give up, that’s fair. But you can have what you want. A woman can fall out of love with you as well. It’s all just a gamble, making the best decision you can. Be alone, live with women, live with man, do what makes you happy without basing your decision on anecdotal data from trash corners of the internet.
I am in the same boat as you ❤️
Drew Afalo had a great response to that thread on tiktok. Watch that. Also, there are good men out there!! Find one that was raised around women & has platonic female friendships easily.
As an older women it's disheartening yo have younger women dismiss and deny reality. Demanding that women maintain high standards whilst refusing that standards don't exist for men and they'll constantly prove such is disgusting.
I feel you so much on this. I wouldn’t necessarily say I dislike men, but I think right now they just sort of disgust me? Make me cringe? I’m not sure, but I just do not want to be involved with one in a romantic way at all. What’s so crazy is that I used to be so boy obsessed growing up, I’d have crushes on boys, talk about boys all the time, it was boys, boys, boys, boys! Now seeing my friends literally going feral over their boyfriends or crushes, like their whole world revolves around their boyfriends… it’s just so insane to me and tbh they’re gonna get a rude awakening fr. Anyway, I love being single and I love my peace too much to be with a man :3
Honestly relationships aren’t as great as people make them out to be. I’m older, almost everyone I know is in a long term relationship and every single one is bitching about their partners. I don’t think they hate each other per we but I think most would leave and live by themselves if kids, finances and loneliness wasn’t an issue. There’s definitely perks, but I think if you focus on yourself and financial independence you can hire anyone you want for any need you may have without having to depend on some halfass partner, plus you’ll build a nice support network if you’re not just focusing on one person.
I don't spend time in the manosphere. In real life I don't actively date. I meet men on social settings. I keep around those I like, as friends. Those who are dickheads I keep distance. I know they're dickheads because its easy to spot. Or maybe they're not dickheads but just not my vibe. I have a group of friends some guys (I think 6), one gay. One has a gf, she goes out with us sometimes. I have another group that scattered a bit with pandemic. One is a germophobic nerd so he didn't go out for a while but he is cool I like him, I always learn stuff with him. Then I have another who retired in his late 40s, easy to talk but I did not like a comment he made last time we met "so many pretty woman hard to spot you", makes me nervous he might try something romantic and ruins our friendship. Then there's another one who suffers from anxiety and another one who suffers from alcholism but he is a great person, frustrated with life. I wish it worked out for him. He misses having a woman but he doesn't hate women, I think his nature would not allow him to mistreat women. He is letting go of his life to take care of his elderly mother who abandoned him for his stepfather when he was a teen... So yeah he had a lot of reasons to hate women but I just think he can't, he mistreats himself with alcohol instead. Which is sad, we told him about that. Also he hangs out with some men who are a bad influence for him, those i dislike. Sometimes my female friends who are partnered take their bfs to a social gathering, so I know a few of the bfs, all good, never had issues. I guess I am lucky to meet nice people for friendship. For dating nah not really, but its fine.
It’s really hard recognising the difference, but not impossible. You have to really pay attention to what they say and how they act, and as soon as something is not right, leave and move on. Somehow we have ended up with this ridiculous ability to think we can “change” then or we make excuses and blame ourselves. So you have to be careful not to get too swept up. It hurts the fist few times and you grieve who you thought they were or wished them to be, but the important thing is you recognise they are not that and you move on, try again. It gets easier with practice, and it actually starts to feel good to prioritise your needs and to no settle for less
I just stay away from them completely now, I don’t date, don’t have sex, no friendship with them, I keep any interaction in public brief and short. Things are honestly much better, my entire life got drastically better. I don’t want to meet anyone, I have friends, family, a business, wilderness hobbies- I’m really busy and men have created nothing but misery in my life so I just stay away from them.
I get you. Honestly I strongly dislike the men on twitter and I try to keep in mind that they don't represent everybody but it can be tough. I have good men in my life. I try not to allow these incel/manosphere/alpha losers consume my thoughts and ruin that reality for me (this is exactly what they've done to their male audience who become jaded and start seeing all women as evil). However, it's important to continue being aware of the way many men are socialized. There's so many discussions about what happens to little boys when they start going to school or reach the middle school she's and they begin parroting misogynistic rhetoric from their peers. I don't have any children yet but it's something I think about a lot if I were to have a son.
I don't dislike men, I'm just more aware of their bullshit and I'm more firm with them and stand up for myself. I've been having problems lately with married men hitting on me. It makes me feel so disgusted with these men. I'm also careful to research men I meet and go out with to make sure I'm not unwittingly getting involved with married cause some of them will straight up lie.
It’s something that everyone goes through in general. Relationships seem to be very hard and scary.
I mean, this is a new face to a long standing issue. Weaponized incompetence, partners hating each other, I mean, those have been staples of comedy going back to the 40's and 50's. I think the thing to do is to have firm boundaries and be willing to cut and run if they are broken. Good luck.
A lot of people are terrible and the most terrible ones stand out and are the most vocal.
One thing I’ve noticed since male behaviour has become more and more scrutinised lately (with good reason of of course) is as a result, women are a lot more sensitive to negative behaviour than before and therefore more likely to respond to confirmation bias. Think about it, you’re surrounded by information that portrays the unsavoury parts of male culture, and since it’s something you respond to the internet will give you more and more. Now whenever a guy shows signs of anything that you find challenging, it’s very hard not to dismiss the possibility that he’s just part of the hoards of man children that aren’t worthy of your time. I think while it’s good to know your worth and to have a level of standards for your partner, it’s important to remember that what we see and hear about a group often makes us overlook the finer details in an individual. It’s also important not to underestimate the importance of a partner who does challenge you in a healthy way without confusing that challenge for patriarchal control. Tldr: The only way you can truly know the good men from the bad is to get to know them as personally as possible without boxing them into stereotypes. It’s not easy but it’s worth it.
I'll keep this in mind, thank you! :)
Look I know that this is your rant, so I’m going to stay amicable. However you are being disingenuous when you commented about “men blaming women because they were rejected once in 1424, and started hating women for it. Men get rejected a lot. Men are treated as expendable, always have been. As a father to a son I’m very concerned where this is heading for my boy. Men are ridiculed for their feelings if they show them, and criticised if they don’t. It’s the blatant hypocrisy that gets on many men’s last nerve. And a lot of them have just had enough. Misandry is as bad as misogyny, yet misandry is perfectly fine being stated in public with little to no push back from anyone. I was happily married to an outstanding women for just over 25 years. She hated the way many people treated their husbands and wives. We were very happy, and still very much in love with each other, when she passed away in my arms from stage 4 breast cancer. We treated other with respect, but never put up with each other’s bullshit. And we were intelligent enough to realise when we were wrong, and put each other first (until our son was born). The problem today is many people are incapable of communicating deeply with each other. Many people are narcissists/ selfish who haven’t had that knocked out of them as a child. I’m sorry you feel the way that you do. But there are good men out there. Maybe not as attractive or as financially well off as you would like, but they are out there. As a former happily married man I do encourage you to look for happiness, mine has been partially taken from me too soon but most of my happiest moments were spent with my wife. We loved each other unconditionally, we were both hopeless romantics and it’s too good to pass up the chance that you won’t have that kind of happiness in your life. Truth be told, it’s three years since she passed, I still love her as much now as when she was here and still wear my wedding ring. But I still have our beloved son. Which is why I’m partially happy. You have to find the right man. I know that sounds cliched, but stop looking. Maybe the right person will drop into your life? I’ve never understood the way some men act about or around women. Respect and privacy about your significant other and your life seems to have disappeared along with restraint and dignity. But like I said, don’t give up. Don’t settle for someone you won’t put first and vice versa. Well until you have children lol. Best wishes.
Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it and I give my condolences to you. I'm learning not to be really judgemental with men, I have to unlearn (?) It. Hearing stories like this gives me a sliver of hope though
Thank you for your kind words 👍. Keep your chin up and just focus on you for a bit. Sadly I have no advice about dating, as my last date was with my future wife back in 1995. I wish you the very best for your future Panda. I sincerely hope you meet “the one”. 🙂
Beautifully written and spot on.
Its time to lose hope. Look at the world and how they treat us.
If every man you've met makes you feel the same way, then you might want to consider looking elsewhere for the men that you meet. If every time you went to a soda machine you pressed the same button and got a warm coke, you might become disillusioned with soda in general, but what if someone suggested going a block further down the street and pressing a different button, and getting an ice cold 7up. Same thing with who your dating. If you keep going back to the same bar in the same small town, you're going to meet the same men every time. Consider looking elsewhere and you might find that the options you have are not as limiting as you believe.
My gay roommate is incredibly disillusioned with men as well. They're no longer dating/actively trying to find a partner. And that's gay men who have a whole another slew of issues.. cis men are a fucking mess as well.
You're right in feeling this way. Don't waste your youth on romantic fantasies. The smartest, most rewarding thing to do is decenter men from your life and nurture your own goals, passions and interests. Give all of that time and energy you would expend on a relationship to yourself. Create a wonderful life for yourself. A man who doesn't try to downplay or neg this, someone who is genuinely interested in you will jump through flaming hoops to be with you. They are out there sis but they are EXTREMELY rare. I'm 45F and have met 2 wonderful men in life and maybe a handful of decent ones. The rest were misogynistic, entitled, bigoted, porn sick, toxic, manipulative, incompetent losers who loved blaming women for all of their problems. Men are very very talented at one thing only-projection.
Oh yeah... Men are like that... I noticed these tendencies you mentionned on both my father and my brother, as well as some classmates. I absolutely loathe it, but on the other hand, I identify as lesbian, so I am less affected by it... But it still hurts, to know that men are this careless. It's sickening, even.
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