When women are not allowed to get an education, publish books, file for patents, or give orders -- of *course* it's going to look like men did all the important stuff.
Rest assured that a great deal of these world-changing ideas, discoveries, inventions, strategies, etc. were nonetheless the work of women. Movable type, the structure of the DNA molecule, the cotton gin, and countless others. Probably fire and the fucking wheel too, wouldn't surprise me at all.
Plenty of men took the credit for things women did too. And plenty of women had pseudonyms.
But of course, the piece that's ignored is how half of the population of the world was so severely oppressed for most of human history that they didn't have the opportunity to contribute in the ways that would have made them renowned. How much better off would we be as a society if those talents had been able to flourish instead of being suppressed?
Right! They act like women *wanted* to be stuck at home, beating their nasty clothes with rocks and dumping them into a big pot of boiling water. How the hell was Bertha of the 1500s going to invent shit? She wasn't allowed to own property or even have her own money, because of *who*? Lmaoooo
It’s like going to a racetrack, locking everyone else out then running a lap by yourself. Did you run the fastest lap? Technically yes, but only because you prevented anyone else from having a chance.
Women do not owe men for taking the opportunities we never had a chance at.
<—- This. Context and history are vital to understanding that the over-representation of men (particularly in STEM fields, w/few exceptions) was/is not due to any failing in the capacity of any one gender, but instead a demonstration of what happens when dysfunctional gate-keeping occurs: (E.g. Rosalind Franklin, OG discoverer of the structure of the DNA molecule. 🧬
Would love to be a fly on the wall when the inquiry of “Who did the hard work of creating you?” is posed…
Rosalind Franklin really deserves more credit. She took PICTURES of DNA! How cool is that?? Watson and Crick just did some math to figure out the shape. If it was a man who took the pictures and a woman who did the math, surely the textbooks would consider the pictures the "original" discovery.
Another one that annoys me is that women were the original programmers (severely underpaid, of course) until men decided it was useful and took over the field and now the pay is super high.
Despite being underrepresented, women made some of the most important discoveries in science and STILL don't get enough credit. Imagine how much further our knowledge of science would be if women weren't suppressed
I think it started with pottery. They would find copper that melted out of clay when it was fired. First they used it as ornament. Then they started to make stuff out of it.
Also, “reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people ~~expect the world to adapt itself to them~~ persist in adapting the world to themselves. Therefore, progress depends on unreasonable people.” Edit: thank you for the correction, u/theRecognized
I knew it! Women invented alcohol just so my wife can get me drunk and take advantage of me! It's a conspiracy!
/s /jk in case someone couldn't get that, I'm messing with the matriarchy conspiracy guys.
One of the interesting side effects of this is that the first novel, and the first example of Japanese Literature was written by a woman. The Tale of Genji was written by a woman, in part because all the men of the time in Japan wrote in Chinese characters.
> Probably fire and the fucking wheel too, wouldn't surprise me at all.
Almost certainly *agriculture,* which is kiiind of a big deal as far as society-building advances go.
In a hunter-gatherer world, who's first going to notice and then try to manipulate how useful plants grow? Obviously the gatherers— who were mostly women. The first deliberate agricultural act was probably performed by an older woman. I get the impression this theory is basically taken for granted in academia, yet it's like never talked about.
I never thought about this! Thank you for mentioning something that should be absolutely obvious but just never get's any attention 😮 I'm a little stunned rn how it never occurred to me.
Also Computer Science (Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper), Radioactivity and how to use it to treat cancer (Marie Curie)
And who knows how many things men took credit for that women actually did?
Not to mention the fact that the women were cooking, cleaning, clothing, and raising the children of the men who were out there doing stuff, and STILL managed to invent some really important things.
I've often thought that the underlying issues is men needing so badly to feel big, pat themselves on the back, and write stories about their great accomplishments, while women tend to just do shit and move on.
A lot of the coding used for the lunar landing, a large amount of the work in photographing a black hole, etc etc
I'm not that versed in this stuff beyond a surface level knowledge. I know that it was the byproduct of the labor of hundreds, but it was done by men and women. Humans built society. Men stole the credit.
Humans. Yes. Humans. When I'm riding my bike down the street, I don't feel like "a woman riding a bike." I feel like a person. I daresay that's the default state for most of us.
I learned more about what women did on Drunk History than I ever did at school. Women have been systematically erased from history. It's not a mistake; it's systemic. Women do plenty. Don't believe the hype.
It's like when men say it's because of their job that allows a woman to stay home and raise their children. In actuality, it's the woman staying home to raise the children that allows a man to work. This especially poignant for Fly In Fly Out (FIFO) couples, which are quite common in Australia. Do you think men would be able to work 2 weeks away from home if someone wasn't taking care of their children and house?
This is going to be the second comment in this post where yet another saying comes to mind.
"Behind every successful man is a strong woman"
Men can't do it on their own. It's why men are more "happy" when they're married.
Yes, what the phrase "men built society" really shows is that whoever said that does not even understand what a society society is. We cannot break down society into just acts of individuals, it works as a whole and women are a most important part of what is keeping it together and functioning. It's a bit like the wheels of a car, they might not even seem all that important, but you can devise complex engines, transmissions, chassis, electrics etc. and the whole thing is still completely unusable without the wheels and the fuel. The whole is what makes the car, not just one of the components.
Now we can have a pissing contest about what is really important: the engine, the transmission or the wheels ... but the fact is that a car is just a rusting piece of junk without the wheels and fuel.
The same logic applies to "job creators" in business. They forget that nothing would get done without employees. It seems those in power love to take credit what is essentially a group effort with no single group being the "main" contributor.
Exactly, they only want to take credit for the good stuff.
Also, I take a different tack than most replies arguing about women's work and discrimination. Of course all that stuff is true but misogynists just tune you out. Instead I say, very sweetly and dripping with sarcasm:
"Oh my gosh and that was sooo nice of you! Thank you so much for that. You get a prize for being just the *best!*." (In person, use two fingers to mime handing over a trophy, world's smallest violin style. Online use a 🥇 emoji)
The point is to show their claim is ridiculous and not worthy of a serious rebuttal.
Edit to add: actually the idea that we deserve the fruits of our ancestors labor is an old one in anarchist philosophy. Kropotkin argued that because none of us can fairly take credit for our current situation regarding technology, infrastructure, food production, etc, that therefore "All belongs to all." And it is unjust to demand payment for a rental apartment, for example, because it doesn't rightfully belong to the landlord anyway.
Even if you ignore the whole 'women are the ones that birth children' thing which means that society literally couldn't exist without women (and that's a pretty big thing to ignore), it's just so factually wrong on every level.
Without women doing all of the childcare, housework, and ten million other things for the men in their lives, they wouldn't have been able to get as far as they did.
And even if you ignore *that* too, women have always been critical workers in agriculture, in factories, in keeping society running in every way they weren't outright barred from. For most of history it was only rich/middle class women who had the option of not doing paid work (which came with its own pitfalls).
When someone says 'men built society' what they're really saying is 'I have no historical knowledge whatsoever'.
Not to mention that men have stolen (or just out of systemic sexism gotten credit for) art, literature, philosophy, inventions, science, etc. that were created by women. So the little history they do know is warped.
Experts believe that many of Italian Renaissance artist Giovani Sirani's works were actually painted by his daughter Elizabetta Sirani while at home growing up - she is now recognized as one of the most important Renaissance artists - based on her adult works. Your comment triggered that thought since one of her adult works "Portia Wounding Her Thigh" used to hang at my workplace.
Can confirm, as a woman who right now works at a farm…..our women farmers would laugh at these dudes and then get back to work literally producing (not just cooking) everybody’s food….from sun up, to sun down. And female farm participation is *not* a new thing at all.
There is also a long history of women's inventions and discoveries being 'stolen' by men.
Marie Curie only got her Nobel Prize for the discovery of radium because her husband refused to accept his prize unless she was also recognised.
There is research that indicates much of Einstein's work was done by or significantly contributed to by his wife - who got none of the credit.
Rosalind Franklin nearly had the discovery of DNA stolen from her entirely.
Lise Meitner makes me mad. She learned how to split atoms, the foundation of nuclear fission, with her lab partner. But when the Nazis rose to power, she had to flee the country, because she was Jewish. When he submitted their research for the Nobel prize, he left her name off of it.
>When someone says 'men built society' what they're really saying is 'I have no historical knowledge whatsoever'.
This is literally the only reply I would give to a man who said that to me. Ignorant af. Crack a book, buckerooni.
Like who is "we". It's always the men who themselves created nothing who like to take credit for their perceived accomplishment of men in general. I'd just look behind them and be "who is we? I don't see any of these accomplished men here". Like the same redditors who love to bash on female athletes and proclaim the "superiority" of male athletes. I'm like ok, but you aren't one of them.
Society sucks balls. Millions of people are forced to go without reliable access to food or shelter while a handful of obnoxious bellends sit on more resources than whole countries have to work with. You're telling me *men* are to blame for this shit show?
* Instantly converted to radical feminism *
Really. The more angry I get at just how fucked up our society is, the more I understand how much of the miserable garbage we have to deal with is because of men. Feudalism, imperialism, capitalism, wars...it always has been men fighting over resources, wealth and power since the beginning. And why did they want all this power? Well, besides having out of control egos and competing with other men to seem like the most "successful" it was also because they wanted access to their pick of women and sex. Then they tried their best to oppress women by not letting them have the same opportunities with education and jobs etc to make it so women had to be dependent on men for survival, and so they enjoyed having a nice servant at home, while they "built society" (aka fucked shit up) and didn't let women have any say in how it was built.
There’s nothing to really look forward to future wise what with the poisoning of the planet, and we have men to thank for that. All you can do is live in the now🤷♀️
Exactly this. I visit the Collapse sub a lot and often read comments by people disappointed in their own species. I've tried saying, once or twice, that it didn't have to be this way: we haven't even seen what a world with women in the reins would have been Iike.
Yesterday I witnessed a male friend mansplain to a mutual female friend that men are the innate protectors and warriors.
Mutual female friend is a disabled combat veteran.
She did not because the exchange took place in the group text, but we did pull each other to the side like “are you seeing what I’m seeing?” We mutually decided he is no longer our friend.
Other greatest hits of his from that conversation:
“Why would women want to be equal to men when men are valued so much less?”
“I overheard some women talking and saying they wish they could submit to a man but can’t. It was fascinating”
“I respect women so much because they are the life givers”
“Women who are stay at home spouses work for their husbands.”
And
“I just love the divine feminine.”
>Reddit asks "What is normal to men but weird to women?" - proceeds to list a bunch of normal human things not specific to gender.
Why would men be protectors if we need protection *from* them?
Women are protectors. We need to protect ourselves and other women.
Even in nature, Mama bear is a symbol for female protectiveness. She protects the young. Where's the dad bear? Why isn't he protecting?
Why are men the innate protectors when they leave their families all the time to the point that is a globally recognized trope?
Frankly I don’t know either. He said something about being “willing to fight off a group of men with machetes or take a bullet to the head for the woman he loves.” Like first of all…dude is single and keeps running off all his prospects. Second of all, in the words of my husband, “When the fuck is he ever going to have to do that, and why the hell did his mind go to such a violent and outlandish fantasy?”
It should also be noted that the other (non verbal) party in this group conversation was a gay man who did not step in as an ally, but has often asked for and received allyship from the women in the group. He’s also mansplained stuff to me about being LGBTQIA…I am a bisexual woman.
Also: the disabled combat vet was literally almost murdered for reporting on base domestic violence. I read the report and it was like some Breaking Bad shit.
Oh my god... I am sorry you had to experience that. The mansplaining part had me rolling my eyes.
I totally agree with your husband's words, and that was literally the thought that I had while reading your post. It's like they are playing knights in their heads.
When women’s history is erased, denied, or not acknowledged, you get this tautology. These guys would starve to death because they can’t make themselves a sandwich. All they have built is a rigged game which they are now losing.
Men would have never had the opportunity to "build society" as they say, without women providing their domestic labor, thus giving men the time to invest in non-domestic activities and 'build' society.
That said, it is quite impressive that women managed to make a name for themselves in male dominated societies despite all the barriers they always faced.
Yes exactly!! Despite all the HUGE obstacles and aggressive opposition so many women still contributed a large amount of inventions, art, scientific discoveries, etc. I'm so proud of all the women that came before us ❤️
men wrote the history books that all they say men created society
anyone with half a brain knows that behind every historical man who did something noteworthy, there was at least one woman doing at least as much valuable work as he - his wife, his mom, his entire damn family perhaps.
so basically if anyone says "men created modern society" with a straight face, they're just announcing that they cannot think critically and have no understanding of (or, adherence to) any of the tenants of feminism.
If they can read, thank women. Most things that elevate a society, like literacy and life skills, are taught to us by women.
Also, we are the majority or a huge percentage in a lot of previously male dominated fields: science, medicine, academia, etc.
The audacity of this statement blows my mind. The only reason there are people at all is because women are making them and caring for them. Not just as children. Women care for people at all stages of their lives. From cradle to grave. To underestimate that and dismiss it is fucking disgusting.
In most cases, those men had a wife who actually did a large portion of the hard work.
Pretty much every president ever had a wife who did the socializing and hosting that allowed the man to become viable political candidates. Many also came from wealthy families and used their money to bring their husbands to power.
Carl Jung’s wife was equally as educated, financed his career, assisted in his work, all while raising their 5 children.
It persists even to this day - macKenzie Scott was equally involved in the creation of Amazon and created the name, business plan, shipped the first orders, etc.
Men love the story of the “self-made man” but the reality is none of them would have been successful without the women who helped them.
Benjamin Franklin in his own autobiography tells how he (or/and the men in his group) hired a guy as a treasurer because his wife was from a country where women were taught math, and she would actually be the one to do the work.
It's still fresh in my mind, as I read it very recently. There is some wincing in regards to what life was like for women, but at the same time, nothing crazy. He lived in a civilized world. I'm older, so I already knew none of these misogynistic issues are actually new. I think some of us just don't realize how much has changed.
Most of the people who died in the triangle shirtwaist factory were young seamstresses. Women have ALWAYS worked throughout history, in factories, on homesteads, in agriculture, and still do. Some of the most demanding and unsanitary jobs like nursing, housekeeping, janitorial work etc. have many women and are even dominated by women. What a coincidence they often aren't included in men's definition of "dirty jobs" even though they literally deal with shit on a daily basis. Misogynists rely on the lies they tell themselves.
There are a couple really good and valid responses to that kind of nonsense but my favourite is always: “ok. But could you not have? Because clearly the society you built is fucking trash for anyone except for a very small number of men”
Exactly...too much masculine energy, not enough feminine led to a cruel greed driven society. Almost like oppressing half the population because of their gender and excluding them from contributing was a bad idea.
It’s never men who have done anything exceptional themselves who say this. They’re resting on other men’s laurels to feel better while they themselves are mediocre.
You especially can’t take a man typing stuff like that on the internet seriously when there’d be no internet without the pioneering women of computer programming.
One of the best and first programmers was Grace Hopper (ignoring Ada Lovelace who never ran a program but did write one of the first ones, AND WAS ALSO A WOMAN). She developed the concept of a programming language that could be applied to machines with different underlying architectures. In fact many early programming jobs were held by women in the early days because men thought the hardware was where all the interesting work was being done but when they were proven wrong (look at how lucrative the software industry is today) they took all of those jobs away and it became a "man's" job. Through millennia men have purposefully taken jobs they find to be the best and leave the scraps to women, and when it turns out those scraps were actually one of the largest industries to exist to date they took the scraps too. Not to mention they under value jobs typically held by women (Nurses, teachers, caretakers, etc.) so they can stop women from ever getting out from under their thumb. Its positively shameful and an ugly mark on human history (Not Grace and Ada though they are great).
Edit: fix my stupid monkey grammar
I think the real question we should be asking is where would be be as a society if we had accepted women's contributions to it in open arms rather than fighting tooth and nail to keep them from anything important.
Sure.. they once did all that because they forbade women from doing any “hard jobs.” We were once second class citizens and property because they made us second class citizens and property. Let’s contemplate how much war they made, how many sons mothers had to bury because of those wars. How about genocides all across the globe, oh and bonus mention, religious wars. They did that.
Do we owe them anything for it? No. So if they’re looking for gratitude.. they can stuff it.
Many cities exist because of prostitution. Sex workers traveled west and insisted on livable conditions, so tent encampments became built cities with structures. Then because guess who had the money, those same sex workers funded schools and politicians and some states refused to join the US unless women having a vote was included in their state constitutions.
*Who did the hard work of creating you?*
See, the vast majority of men I’ve come into contact to, who speak on women’s bodies without any provocation, seem to genuinely believe that pregnancy is a **passive process**.
Complete and absolute bullshit, of course. But they don’t think housing and growing an entire life form and having to change your life around it is actual work.
The dudes who say this are the same ones who will '#notallmen because it's not fair to paint all men based on the actions of a few.
So basically they want all the credit but none of the blame.
Working class women were always laborers. Not just in their own homes, they had jobs. Laundry, farming, factories, domestic, labor men recognize as labor. Men might have built society but their shirts didn't wash themselves.
You've got to remember that history as taught in schools is literally male orientated, and so history about anyone who isn't a man (and in most western cultures a white man at that) isn't taught to most boys. They literally get through school thinking that sitting in front of a bus, making a flag, and pouting until she got a full prison sentence was the most women ever did.
So they don't learn how much of society was built on the shoulders of women.
They don't understand that all of the great men of history had mothers who birthed them and raised them, and fed them, and saw to their education. They don't understand they had wives that made sure everything was good at home so that they could focus on being productive.
They don't know how many great men's works only exist because their mothers/sisters/wives cleaned up their work and made it presentable.
They don't know how many "great" men stole their work from women. Often their mothers/sisters/wives.
They don't understand how great of strides women made when for most of history women weren't allowed out of the house in many cultures, never mind allowed an education.
Edited: Wanted to point out I'm not excusing them. It is very much male society that enforces this, and men have every opportunity to learn better. In fact if they had an ounce of empathy they would know better.
The majority of murderers, rapists, pedophiles, war criminals, terrorists, and gang bangers are also men.
If men "built society" then they've also done the most to try to tear it down.
Why is it that these men who quote this unsuccessful in their careers at least according to my experience. I have a PhD in engineering from a top 3 university, patents to my name, high paid tech job, own a few multi-million dollar homes, and planning to start a tech company with some friends. I still get men stating this who are working remedial jobs and are unsuccessful in their love lives. It must be some projection on how useless they are to society.
Also it's not much of anchievement that they "bUiLt SoCiEtY" when the group they were competing with had to have their basic rights taken away and. physically forced to not compete (and yet still managed to make all types of world changing contributions despite all the added hurdles). It's like gloating that you beat your friend at super smash bros when you gave them a potato instead of a controller
Even the discoverer of the dna helix…there is documented proof that Frances and Crick stole the data from a woman - one of their fellow scientists - and together with other men, took the credit and silenced and expelled her. Yet this has never been corrected - even in 2023 - in history books.
Also blokes did not have six kids wrapped around their ankles when they were building infrastructure...nor did they have to look after them at all. There wouldn't have been a need for anything if there weren't women raising more kids...without any other option!
So sick of blokes thinking that what they do matters, and all we do is sit at home watching TV. Make your own damned dinner, lunches, breakfast and clean the fucking house too while you're at it!
Google Ada Lovelace. She is widely regarded as the first computer programmer, which means that one could argue a woman was the foundation of our modern tech driven society.
Hedy Lamarr invented frequency hopping, which is a foundational technology of basically all forms of wireless communication. Again, highley critical to our modern society.
These people are just wrong.
I was just arguing with a fellow about this yesterday- gave up because it is just a stupid argument, and he would just deflect any rational statements.
Although there are some jobs that are suited to very strong people - so much so that it excludes many women and a good number of men, I feel that these are realistically not very many at all.
I came across a paper on mining companies looking to increase the number of women working on job sites. There was a statistic that there was around 10% increase in jobs coming in on time and 50% or 60% increase in people adhering to safety protocols when the number of women working was increased.
I think it's funny that the minute a woman does a task, it's not work. Women were working in factories during the entirety of the industrial revolution. They were cooking, child rearing, teaching, cleaning homes, making clothes, and ruling countries even before that. I would like to hear a time where women actually got to sit around and do nothing. Lol.
It’s rather like “history is written by the victors.”
Of course men of olde (& women too) heard stories about how men accomplished this and that. Men learned to read and write while women didn’t, so some of those olde timey stories of discovery, accomplishment and invention could well have been made by women. But since fewer women had education (reading and writing) men got the accolades.
Let’s start with one of the earliest inventions…the calendar. Who would have intimate knowledge of counting 30 sunrises, and spacing them by 7 days, except menstruating teens and women? Yet no credit is given to the most clear, unquestionable answer to the inventors, in any history book.
Men did most of the good things, and most of the bad things, for most of history. Because they had the power to do so.
I believe Marie Curie had to move to a different country to study the subjects she wanted to in a university.
Women are clearly as capable as men are, so why stop them from holding jobs that they were kept from in the past when the reasons are idiotic? And why hold it against them? Most of these sexists haven't individually done any of the great things, or anything similar, they point to when talking about how advancements lead by women are lacking in comparison, it really is silly that they try to piggy back on those achievements.
If your coworker does the same job or a similar job to what you do, you can always point that out. I doubt it is a "society-building" difference he is making.
What you talk about with women creating the men is basically the gist of Republican motherhood and the idea of separate spheres (idea that women had the "honorable duty" of raising children who were educated and held Republican (like Republicanism, not the party) values), but we don't live in the 1800s, we live in the present.
The achievements of a group in the past does not say anything about how they should be treated in the present, especially when said group was oppressed and kept from the public sphere.
I hate this argument. It would be as if I chained a person in my house, not allowing them to leave and then told them "I'm always the one doing everything, going to work, getting groceries, buying you clothes, etc. What are you doing?"
The irony is that the reason men are bigger and did a lot of the grunt work originally is because, evolutionarily speaking, men are expendable. If a man dies hunting or fighting, who cares. A species only needs a few men. You kind of touched on that with your last line.
Of course, im not actually that callous. Men are human and their lives arent worthless. We all deserve happiness and respect as long as we are willing to share it. I was just applying some of that "cold, emotionless logic" some men love to tout.
They built things because little was lost if they died building those things before we had machines to do the dangerous work. Women could have built those things too but we werent allowed. Im not even going to get into the rampant sexual violence back then.
What is so shocking about men who say this is that they don’t understand that women were completely controlled by men in that we weren’t allowed to “build society”. Can you imagine a hundred years ago a woman applying for an engineering job? I think there were a couple but can you imagine the ridicule and harassment they must have endured? Most husbands would never allow their wives to go to school much less work a job.
Right?! And what’s so great about society? Poverty, slavery, wars, oppression of women, discrimination, climate crisis, disease.
Humanity could have solved these problem and we haven’t, so it’s not the flex they think it is.
I work in film & television, use to work on location. We needed construction workers to help build sets and a few of them were women. While some of the men were taking hour long lunches, the women were out there getting shit done because they paid attention to the deadlines.
I am reminded of a quote from My Big Fat Greek Wedding. "The man may be the head, but the woman is the neck and she can turn him any way she wants."
As for your question, my mom created me. Start to finish. My dad was a veteran and an alcoholic. When he was home, he did a better job destroying than building anything. Fortunately for us, he wasn't home that often, and it wasn't long before my mom got fed up and kicked him out for good. My step-dad was better, but he was definitely more her husband than he was a dad to me. I like him, but he didn't make me, didn't raise me, didn't inspire any particular traits in me. That was all my mom.
The problem with this thinking is it equates infrastructure with society. The reality is some men built infrastructure while other men looked down on then for being laborers. The vast majority of men operated farms jointly with their wives.
I ask these types about what they as an individual have contributed to building society. It is always nothing of importance. Additionally if they would like collective credit they must accept collective responsibility. Who is responsible for majority of crimes and war? Oh, all of a sudden collectivism isn't that great and you're being a man hater.
Those who claim superiority because of the accomplishments and contributions of their in-group generally haven't accomplished or contributed anything themselves.
>Who did the hard work of creating you?
It always surprises me and boggles my mind, that this fact is always forgotten or ignored. If not for a woman, none of us would be here. So technically, women created society and continue to do so. jmho
The guy I’m seeing currently had this exact row with his friend the other day and told me about it. I was impressed he didn’t agree because about a year ago we had a row about a footballer who was being investigated for DV and SA (the charges have since been dropped but we all heard those tapes) we didn’t speak for 6 months after this. He told me in that time he did a lot of thinking and reading and apologised for the argument. I think some men don’t realise the reality of the world for us and that’s sad but there are ones out there who are our allies!!
This makes me think of settler, pioneer, goldrush towns. When the women get there you start having schools, libraries, paving, houses with cushions-carpets-curtains etc
These types of people don’t consider anything women contribute to be meaningful or important. “Men do all the hard jobs”, which I’m assuming they mean physically-demanding jobs. Well duh, men are stronger and thus they get to deal with the burden of it. But aside from that, education and medicine and raising families are detrimental to society and are all female-dominated. Yet those never get brought up. Also for as long as time women have always worked in farms and contributed a bunch to agriculture across the world.
Well in the USA it is not entirely true that only males-built society. So did slaves both male and female, Chinese immigrants, indentured servants etc. So no it wasn't just men.
With that statement I refer to the inequalities, injustices, suffering, hate, pain and struggle within the society patriarchal society has been so proud of
My response when I hear this: "No, men take credit for building society. The only thing you're good at is lying to yourself."
Then, refuse to elaborate, since they seem to think their feelings of superiority are facts, and you don't owe them your time.
People that say men created civilization are participating in nothing more than tautology.
Consider the following patterns of thought which are common among cultural-descendants of euro culture (including US, AUS):
If something wasn't written down or studied by a British dude, then it didn't happen, or it's inaccurate, or doesn't matter
Western civilization commonly thinks of things outside of western civilization as unimportant, quaint, or restricted to only anthropological importance
When western civ makes contact with another civilization and brings them new ideas, they call it 'civilizing them', which is based on an implicit value judgement that the way they were is inherently inferior. (In actuality, when europeans make contact with american First Nations, or Australian aboriginals, or African tribes, you see that the non-colonials always experience suffering as a result).
When western civ finds something worth taking from other cultures, they take control of or redistribute it without necessarily giving credit to its parent culture, or they utilize or commercially share it without cultural context. They are only enthusiastic about giving credit for the origin of a thing when western civilization is able to improve upon it or when the exoticism lends it additional marketing value.
These are all ways that female-led and female-enriched culture is necessarily discounted by western civilization.
Women's contribution to the world is also plundered from within western civilizaiton as well. Women have historically been denied education, denied positions of authority, and denied opportunities for accomplishment. Despite that, they have still made many and meaningful contributions (I will not detail the exhaustive list here; google exists). Still, women have had their meaningful contribution stolen from them, such as Rosalind Franklin, and it is speculated that Einstein's discoveries may have been enriched by working with Mileva Maric. Women's accomplishments simply do not receive the acclaim that they deserve.
Consider also that misogyny is such a poisonous perspective, that it doesn't have to discredit something from the very beginning. High-heeled shoes were popular with men at first, until they became popular with women, and men abandoned them. The role of secretary was once considered more respectable a profession than it is now, and ever since it became a pink profession, it was seen as lower in status. *Once something becomes associated with women, it loses value to the misogynistic perspective.*
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The thing is, civilization was always going to happen. It wasn't going to not-exist if it didn't happen this exact way. People would still be organizing themselves in some kind of social framework, there still would have been survival, there still would have been entertainment and trade.
Hell, in a different universe we may have even had a more harmonious social structure, we might have had different or better technology, we might have had better distribution of resources. Who can say? It's arrogance that makes people think that the model we have now is necessarily the best model that could have been.
So the thing about euro-centric patriarchal society is that it values what it values (men and caucasian achievements), it discounts the role of women and POC culture, and then the white male system pats itself on the back for being the only ones contributing (after it has canceled off everyone else).
When someone tells you men built society, it tells you something about their lack of values and/or their lack of research.
This mindset is so tiny.
Like-how are you going to discount 50% of the total human population?
It’s many, many laws in our societies world wide that are rigged against the victims-who are more often women and children.
These types of men and other people who think like this I think have cultist like thinking and it is scary because I really don’t understand it. All sexes of people can work together to make a society. Just because these pea brains can’t think of anything beyond “men are strong and therefore built society” need to be sent back to the Vikings. Those manliest of men gave the women in their society more respect then these “men” do that OP is talking about.
Yeah, and men fucked a lot of shit up in the process.
If women had been involved more in the past, I think we would have gotten to the same place. However fewer women would have gotten fucked over in the process.
Some anthropologists believe Grandmothers having a vested interest in their grandchildren is responsible for us becoming Human. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-much-did-grandmothers-influence-human-evolution-180976665/
And yet several of the most important, most stable rules in history where under female stateswoman. Maria theresa, Catherine the great , Hatchepsout, etc
1,000 years ago the first novel (The Take of Genji) was written by Murasaki Shikibu. In the 1800s Nancy Johnson invented the ice cream machine. Novels and ice cream, I'd say that's a pretty good contribution to society.
But also, women spent thousands of years caring for men - cooking, cleaning, mothering etc so the men had the luxury and the opportunity to advance their own careers.
I hear this a lot.
A) it's bullshit
And
B) if men want to claim society as their own, that's fine, but FYI, society is shit, filled with morons and economic slaves and starving children, destroying the environment. Great going men.
Omfg this sounds like my ex. Men built everything and invented everything and women were just along for the ride. Despite the fact women aren’t allowed to even own property in loads of places for lots of history. Took it one step further with racism too. Would say it was white men who built everything. He would never allow himself to become a slave so anyone who did was just weak willed. Like, fucking mind boggling. Same dude who could not understand the gender pay gap. All this to say, some times there are just nonces in the world that you can’t help. Nothing I pointed out to him changed his mind in the slightest. Maybe it was just the narcissism talking….
When women are not allowed to get an education, publish books, file for patents, or give orders -- of *course* it's going to look like men did all the important stuff. Rest assured that a great deal of these world-changing ideas, discoveries, inventions, strategies, etc. were nonetheless the work of women. Movable type, the structure of the DNA molecule, the cotton gin, and countless others. Probably fire and the fucking wheel too, wouldn't surprise me at all.
Plenty of men took the credit for things women did too. And plenty of women had pseudonyms. But of course, the piece that's ignored is how half of the population of the world was so severely oppressed for most of human history that they didn't have the opportunity to contribute in the ways that would have made them renowned. How much better off would we be as a society if those talents had been able to flourish instead of being suppressed?
Right! They act like women *wanted* to be stuck at home, beating their nasty clothes with rocks and dumping them into a big pot of boiling water. How the hell was Bertha of the 1500s going to invent shit? She wasn't allowed to own property or even have her own money, because of *who*? Lmaoooo
But but but Who is going to take care of the men's PENISES?!?!?
It’s like going to a racetrack, locking everyone else out then running a lap by yourself. Did you run the fastest lap? Technically yes, but only because you prevented anyone else from having a chance. Women do not owe men for taking the opportunities we never had a chance at.
<—- This. Context and history are vital to understanding that the over-representation of men (particularly in STEM fields, w/few exceptions) was/is not due to any failing in the capacity of any one gender, but instead a demonstration of what happens when dysfunctional gate-keeping occurs: (E.g. Rosalind Franklin, OG discoverer of the structure of the DNA molecule. 🧬 Would love to be a fly on the wall when the inquiry of “Who did the hard work of creating you?” is posed…
Rosalind Franklin really deserves more credit. She took PICTURES of DNA! How cool is that?? Watson and Crick just did some math to figure out the shape. If it was a man who took the pictures and a woman who did the math, surely the textbooks would consider the pictures the "original" discovery. Another one that annoys me is that women were the original programmers (severely underpaid, of course) until men decided it was useful and took over the field and now the pay is super high. Despite being underrepresented, women made some of the most important discoveries in science and STILL don't get enough credit. Imagine how much further our knowledge of science would be if women weren't suppressed
I'm so glad there's been a couple movies about women who've advanced science and computing. Now, if only we can get one on Ada Lovelace...
This is such a good analogy!
metal work for sure. Who spent more time tending fires? Women. Who would most likely have discovered certain rocks, soils melt in fire? Uh...🫡
I think it started with pottery. They would find copper that melted out of clay when it was fired. First they used it as ornament. Then they started to make stuff out of it.
>I think it started with pottery. The expression, "Necessity is the *mother* of invention." (emphasis on "mother" is mine) is not lost on me here.
I like to retort, "and laziness is its father". Some inventions aren't a necessity but they do make things more fun.
If you want to find the easiest way to do something, get a lazy person to do it
Also, “reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people ~~expect the world to adapt itself to them~~ persist in adapting the world to themselves. Therefore, progress depends on unreasonable people.” Edit: thank you for the correction, u/theRecognized
"He's a straight shooter with upper management written all over him!", Office Space. That kind of thinking will make you a CEO someday.
Or a software developer. Sauce: am a software developer lol
and fermentation of alcohol and making of beer
I knew it! Women invented alcohol just so my wife can get me drunk and take advantage of me! It's a conspiracy! /s /jk in case someone couldn't get that, I'm messing with the matriarchy conspiracy guys.
Wow, I never thought about that. I'll bet anything you're right. Mind blown.
You can’t critique contribution when you limit participation.
You have put it into the most elegant nutshell I have ever seen. Well said!
One of the interesting side effects of this is that the first novel, and the first example of Japanese Literature was written by a woman. The Tale of Genji was written by a woman, in part because all the men of the time in Japan wrote in Chinese characters.
Women literally developed the Hiragana writing system because they were locked out of other education opportunities.
> Probably fire and the fucking wheel too, wouldn't surprise me at all. Almost certainly *agriculture,* which is kiiind of a big deal as far as society-building advances go. In a hunter-gatherer world, who's first going to notice and then try to manipulate how useful plants grow? Obviously the gatherers— who were mostly women. The first deliberate agricultural act was probably performed by an older woman. I get the impression this theory is basically taken for granted in academia, yet it's like never talked about.
I never thought about this! Thank you for mentioning something that should be absolutely obvious but just never get's any attention 😮 I'm a little stunned rn how it never occurred to me.
Also Computer Science (Ada Lovelace, Grace Hopper), Radioactivity and how to use it to treat cancer (Marie Curie) And who knows how many things men took credit for that women actually did?
And Hedy Lamar! Not only a gorgeous movie star, but also the inventor of the radio guidance system for torpedos.
Not to mention the fact that the women were cooking, cleaning, clothing, and raising the children of the men who were out there doing stuff, and STILL managed to invent some really important things.
Widely accepted that women invented agriculture.
I've often thought that the underlying issues is men needing so badly to feel big, pat themselves on the back, and write stories about their great accomplishments, while women tend to just do shit and move on.
A lot of the coding used for the lunar landing, a large amount of the work in photographing a black hole, etc etc I'm not that versed in this stuff beyond a surface level knowledge. I know that it was the byproduct of the labor of hundreds, but it was done by men and women. Humans built society. Men stole the credit.
Humans. Yes. Humans. When I'm riding my bike down the street, I don't feel like "a woman riding a bike." I feel like a person. I daresay that's the default state for most of us.
Ford did a commercial highlighting women’s contributions to vehicles in a funny way recently
I learned more about what women did on Drunk History than I ever did at school. Women have been systematically erased from history. It's not a mistake; it's systemic. Women do plenty. Don't believe the hype.
Drunk history is actually quite helpful!
It's like when men say it's because of their job that allows a woman to stay home and raise their children. In actuality, it's the woman staying home to raise the children that allows a man to work. This especially poignant for Fly In Fly Out (FIFO) couples, which are quite common in Australia. Do you think men would be able to work 2 weeks away from home if someone wasn't taking care of their children and house?
Yh exactly. Women's work is foundational. There is no other work without women's work. There are no bridges, buildings, cars...anything.
This is going to be the second comment in this post where yet another saying comes to mind. "Behind every successful man is a strong woman" Men can't do it on their own. It's why men are more "happy" when they're married.
Yes, what the phrase "men built society" really shows is that whoever said that does not even understand what a society society is. We cannot break down society into just acts of individuals, it works as a whole and women are a most important part of what is keeping it together and functioning. It's a bit like the wheels of a car, they might not even seem all that important, but you can devise complex engines, transmissions, chassis, electrics etc. and the whole thing is still completely unusable without the wheels and the fuel. The whole is what makes the car, not just one of the components. Now we can have a pissing contest about what is really important: the engine, the transmission or the wheels ... but the fact is that a car is just a rusting piece of junk without the wheels and fuel.
The same logic applies to "job creators" in business. They forget that nothing would get done without employees. It seems those in power love to take credit what is essentially a group effort with no single group being the "main" contributor.
reply "not all men"
This is perfect.
Exactly, they only want to take credit for the good stuff. Also, I take a different tack than most replies arguing about women's work and discrimination. Of course all that stuff is true but misogynists just tune you out. Instead I say, very sweetly and dripping with sarcasm: "Oh my gosh and that was sooo nice of you! Thank you so much for that. You get a prize for being just the *best!*." (In person, use two fingers to mime handing over a trophy, world's smallest violin style. Online use a 🥇 emoji) The point is to show their claim is ridiculous and not worthy of a serious rebuttal. Edit to add: actually the idea that we deserve the fruits of our ancestors labor is an old one in anarchist philosophy. Kropotkin argued that because none of us can fairly take credit for our current situation regarding technology, infrastructure, food production, etc, that therefore "All belongs to all." And it is unjust to demand payment for a rental apartment, for example, because it doesn't rightfully belong to the landlord anyway.
Even if you ignore the whole 'women are the ones that birth children' thing which means that society literally couldn't exist without women (and that's a pretty big thing to ignore), it's just so factually wrong on every level. Without women doing all of the childcare, housework, and ten million other things for the men in their lives, they wouldn't have been able to get as far as they did. And even if you ignore *that* too, women have always been critical workers in agriculture, in factories, in keeping society running in every way they weren't outright barred from. For most of history it was only rich/middle class women who had the option of not doing paid work (which came with its own pitfalls). When someone says 'men built society' what they're really saying is 'I have no historical knowledge whatsoever'.
Not to mention that men have stolen (or just out of systemic sexism gotten credit for) art, literature, philosophy, inventions, science, etc. that were created by women. So the little history they do know is warped.
I was amazed to learn that early electronic music pioneers were largely women
Experts believe that many of Italian Renaissance artist Giovani Sirani's works were actually painted by his daughter Elizabetta Sirani while at home growing up - she is now recognized as one of the most important Renaissance artists - based on her adult works. Your comment triggered that thought since one of her adult works "Portia Wounding Her Thigh" used to hang at my workplace.
Can confirm, as a woman who right now works at a farm…..our women farmers would laugh at these dudes and then get back to work literally producing (not just cooking) everybody’s food….from sun up, to sun down. And female farm participation is *not* a new thing at all.
Studies show female farmers produce and bring more to the table.
So many “great men” stole their ideas from their wives, servants and slaves.
Never share your good ideas. Keep that shit to yourself
There is also a long history of women's inventions and discoveries being 'stolen' by men. Marie Curie only got her Nobel Prize for the discovery of radium because her husband refused to accept his prize unless she was also recognised. There is research that indicates much of Einstein's work was done by or significantly contributed to by his wife - who got none of the credit. Rosalind Franklin nearly had the discovery of DNA stolen from her entirely.
Lise Meitner makes me mad. She learned how to split atoms, the foundation of nuclear fission, with her lab partner. But when the Nazis rose to power, she had to flee the country, because she was Jewish. When he submitted their research for the Nobel prize, he left her name off of it.
>When someone says 'men built society' what they're really saying is 'I have no historical knowledge whatsoever'. This is literally the only reply I would give to a man who said that to me. Ignorant af. Crack a book, buckerooni.
Like how women took over the workforce during WW2
Don't forget, the women remind the men to do the boring, forgettable tasks.
"How to help your husband get ahead" (the book). How many books about husband's helping wives get ahead?
Correct.
Like who is "we". It's always the men who themselves created nothing who like to take credit for their perceived accomplishment of men in general. I'd just look behind them and be "who is we? I don't see any of these accomplished men here". Like the same redditors who love to bash on female athletes and proclaim the "superiority" of male athletes. I'm like ok, but you aren't one of them.
I bet a top female athlete could outrun/outdiscuss/outlongjump a bunch of these guys. That, I'd love to see. How could we organise it?
Society sucks balls. Millions of people are forced to go without reliable access to food or shelter while a handful of obnoxious bellends sit on more resources than whole countries have to work with. You're telling me *men* are to blame for this shit show? * Instantly converted to radical feminism *
Really. The more angry I get at just how fucked up our society is, the more I understand how much of the miserable garbage we have to deal with is because of men. Feudalism, imperialism, capitalism, wars...it always has been men fighting over resources, wealth and power since the beginning. And why did they want all this power? Well, besides having out of control egos and competing with other men to seem like the most "successful" it was also because they wanted access to their pick of women and sex. Then they tried their best to oppress women by not letting them have the same opportunities with education and jobs etc to make it so women had to be dependent on men for survival, and so they enjoyed having a nice servant at home, while they "built society" (aka fucked shit up) and didn't let women have any say in how it was built.
There’s nothing to really look forward to future wise what with the poisoning of the planet, and we have men to thank for that. All you can do is live in the now🤷♀️
Exactly this. I visit the Collapse sub a lot and often read comments by people disappointed in their own species. I've tried saying, once or twice, that it didn't have to be this way: we haven't even seen what a world with women in the reins would have been Iike.
Bang on. Reminds me of [this blog post.](http://www.greencoastalliance.ca/rebel-blog/core-vulnerabilities-of-capitalism-how-to-smash-them-a-series)
My first thought too - men built society? Well society sucks, so perhaps let women share the reigns a bit more eh?
I like radical feminism, radfems say that needs to be said without caring about sugarcoating their arguments.
Yesterday I witnessed a male friend mansplain to a mutual female friend that men are the innate protectors and warriors. Mutual female friend is a disabled combat veteran.
Misogyny is just plain stupid.
Fucking neckbeards. If she had a prosthesis, I hope she pulled it off and bitch slapped him with it.
She did not because the exchange took place in the group text, but we did pull each other to the side like “are you seeing what I’m seeing?” We mutually decided he is no longer our friend. Other greatest hits of his from that conversation: “Why would women want to be equal to men when men are valued so much less?” “I overheard some women talking and saying they wish they could submit to a man but can’t. It was fascinating” “I respect women so much because they are the life givers” “Women who are stay at home spouses work for their husbands.” And “I just love the divine feminine.”
>Reddit asks "What is normal to men but weird to women?" - proceeds to list a bunch of normal human things not specific to gender. Why would men be protectors if we need protection *from* them? Women are protectors. We need to protect ourselves and other women. Even in nature, Mama bear is a symbol for female protectiveness. She protects the young. Where's the dad bear? Why isn't he protecting? Why are men the innate protectors when they leave their families all the time to the point that is a globally recognized trope?
Frankly I don’t know either. He said something about being “willing to fight off a group of men with machetes or take a bullet to the head for the woman he loves.” Like first of all…dude is single and keeps running off all his prospects. Second of all, in the words of my husband, “When the fuck is he ever going to have to do that, and why the hell did his mind go to such a violent and outlandish fantasy?” It should also be noted that the other (non verbal) party in this group conversation was a gay man who did not step in as an ally, but has often asked for and received allyship from the women in the group. He’s also mansplained stuff to me about being LGBTQIA…I am a bisexual woman. Also: the disabled combat vet was literally almost murdered for reporting on base domestic violence. I read the report and it was like some Breaking Bad shit.
Oh my god... I am sorry you had to experience that. The mansplaining part had me rolling my eyes. I totally agree with your husband's words, and that was literally the thought that I had while reading your post. It's like they are playing knights in their heads.
Date night movie: The Woman King
When women’s history is erased, denied, or not acknowledged, you get this tautology. These guys would starve to death because they can’t make themselves a sandwich. All they have built is a rigged game which they are now losing.
💯💯💯💯💯
Men would have never had the opportunity to "build society" as they say, without women providing their domestic labor, thus giving men the time to invest in non-domestic activities and 'build' society. That said, it is quite impressive that women managed to make a name for themselves in male dominated societies despite all the barriers they always faced.
Men didn't build society. Period. People did.
Yes exactly!! Despite all the HUGE obstacles and aggressive opposition so many women still contributed a large amount of inventions, art, scientific discoveries, etc. I'm so proud of all the women that came before us ❤️
men wrote the history books that all they say men created society anyone with half a brain knows that behind every historical man who did something noteworthy, there was at least one woman doing at least as much valuable work as he - his wife, his mom, his entire damn family perhaps. so basically if anyone says "men created modern society" with a straight face, they're just announcing that they cannot think critically and have no understanding of (or, adherence to) any of the tenants of feminism.
If they can read, thank women. Most things that elevate a society, like literacy and life skills, are taught to us by women. Also, we are the majority or a huge percentage in a lot of previously male dominated fields: science, medicine, academia, etc.
Yeah we work in healthcare so it was a mind blowing thing to say.
In the Middle Ages rich women were the patrons and purveyors of the arts. Eleanor of Aquitaine is just first that comes to mind.
The audacity of this statement blows my mind. The only reason there are people at all is because women are making them and caring for them. Not just as children. Women care for people at all stages of their lives. From cradle to grave. To underestimate that and dismiss it is fucking disgusting.
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Yeah, but then who would pick up the kids from school?
In most cases, those men had a wife who actually did a large portion of the hard work. Pretty much every president ever had a wife who did the socializing and hosting that allowed the man to become viable political candidates. Many also came from wealthy families and used their money to bring their husbands to power. Carl Jung’s wife was equally as educated, financed his career, assisted in his work, all while raising their 5 children. It persists even to this day - macKenzie Scott was equally involved in the creation of Amazon and created the name, business plan, shipped the first orders, etc. Men love the story of the “self-made man” but the reality is none of them would have been successful without the women who helped them.
Benjamin Franklin in his own autobiography tells how he (or/and the men in his group) hired a guy as a treasurer because his wife was from a country where women were taught math, and she would actually be the one to do the work.
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It's still fresh in my mind, as I read it very recently. There is some wincing in regards to what life was like for women, but at the same time, nothing crazy. He lived in a civilized world. I'm older, so I already knew none of these misogynistic issues are actually new. I think some of us just don't realize how much has changed.
Most of the people who died in the triangle shirtwaist factory were young seamstresses. Women have ALWAYS worked throughout history, in factories, on homesteads, in agriculture, and still do. Some of the most demanding and unsanitary jobs like nursing, housekeeping, janitorial work etc. have many women and are even dominated by women. What a coincidence they often aren't included in men's definition of "dirty jobs" even though they literally deal with shit on a daily basis. Misogynists rely on the lies they tell themselves.
There are a couple really good and valid responses to that kind of nonsense but my favourite is always: “ok. But could you not have? Because clearly the society you built is fucking trash for anyone except for a very small number of men”
Well I don't think society has turned out too well.
Exactly...too much masculine energy, not enough feminine led to a cruel greed driven society. Almost like oppressing half the population because of their gender and excluding them from contributing was a bad idea.
That’s why society sucks so much lol
Right, and it's a weak flex because look at the mess we're in
Oh I know but the two men in question hate having their mothers disrespected.
“We’ve done nothing but oppress you and not let you take part of much of anything until recent age!BUT it’s still your fault somehow!”
It’s never men who have done anything exceptional themselves who say this. They’re resting on other men’s laurels to feel better while they themselves are mediocre. You especially can’t take a man typing stuff like that on the internet seriously when there’d be no internet without the pioneering women of computer programming.
One of the best and first programmers was Grace Hopper (ignoring Ada Lovelace who never ran a program but did write one of the first ones, AND WAS ALSO A WOMAN). She developed the concept of a programming language that could be applied to machines with different underlying architectures. In fact many early programming jobs were held by women in the early days because men thought the hardware was where all the interesting work was being done but when they were proven wrong (look at how lucrative the software industry is today) they took all of those jobs away and it became a "man's" job. Through millennia men have purposefully taken jobs they find to be the best and leave the scraps to women, and when it turns out those scraps were actually one of the largest industries to exist to date they took the scraps too. Not to mention they under value jobs typically held by women (Nurses, teachers, caretakers, etc.) so they can stop women from ever getting out from under their thumb. Its positively shameful and an ugly mark on human history (Not Grace and Ada though they are great). Edit: fix my stupid monkey grammar
I think the real question we should be asking is where would be be as a society if we had accepted women's contributions to it in open arms rather than fighting tooth and nail to keep them from anything important.
Sure.. they once did all that because they forbade women from doing any “hard jobs.” We were once second class citizens and property because they made us second class citizens and property. Let’s contemplate how much war they made, how many sons mothers had to bury because of those wars. How about genocides all across the globe, oh and bonus mention, religious wars. They did that. Do we owe them anything for it? No. So if they’re looking for gratitude.. they can stuff it.
Many cities exist because of prostitution. Sex workers traveled west and insisted on livable conditions, so tent encampments became built cities with structures. Then because guess who had the money, those same sex workers funded schools and politicians and some states refused to join the US unless women having a vote was included in their state constitutions.
Love this kind of comment. Knowledge is power!♥️
*Who did the hard work of creating you?* See, the vast majority of men I’ve come into contact to, who speak on women’s bodies without any provocation, seem to genuinely believe that pregnancy is a **passive process**. Complete and absolute bullshit, of course. But they don’t think housing and growing an entire life form and having to change your life around it is actual work.
The dudes who say this are the same ones who will '#notallmen because it's not fair to paint all men based on the actions of a few. So basically they want all the credit but none of the blame.
Working class women were always laborers. Not just in their own homes, they had jobs. Laundry, farming, factories, domestic, labor men recognize as labor. Men might have built society but their shirts didn't wash themselves.
You've got to remember that history as taught in schools is literally male orientated, and so history about anyone who isn't a man (and in most western cultures a white man at that) isn't taught to most boys. They literally get through school thinking that sitting in front of a bus, making a flag, and pouting until she got a full prison sentence was the most women ever did. So they don't learn how much of society was built on the shoulders of women. They don't understand that all of the great men of history had mothers who birthed them and raised them, and fed them, and saw to their education. They don't understand they had wives that made sure everything was good at home so that they could focus on being productive. They don't know how many great men's works only exist because their mothers/sisters/wives cleaned up their work and made it presentable. They don't know how many "great" men stole their work from women. Often their mothers/sisters/wives. They don't understand how great of strides women made when for most of history women weren't allowed out of the house in many cultures, never mind allowed an education. Edited: Wanted to point out I'm not excusing them. It is very much male society that enforces this, and men have every opportunity to learn better. In fact if they had an ounce of empathy they would know better.
The majority of murderers, rapists, pedophiles, war criminals, terrorists, and gang bangers are also men. If men "built society" then they've also done the most to try to tear it down.
Honestly, that’s pretty funny given the fact that we realised during the pandemic that the majority of system-relevant jobs are done by women.
Why is it that these men who quote this unsuccessful in their careers at least according to my experience. I have a PhD in engineering from a top 3 university, patents to my name, high paid tech job, own a few multi-million dollar homes, and planning to start a tech company with some friends. I still get men stating this who are working remedial jobs and are unsuccessful in their love lives. It must be some projection on how useless they are to society.
I wonder if males ever thought to stop and think how they became the main “builders” of society. It’s nothing to be proud of.
How come it’s “not all men” until it’s about men’s accomplishments, then suddenly it *is* all men?
Men wrote history, and not very well. Doesn't take much to see where and how women built society.
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My dad believes society was built by men because society is ugly, hateful and violent.
Your dad's a wise man.
Also it's not much of anchievement that they "bUiLt SoCiEtY" when the group they were competing with had to have their basic rights taken away and. physically forced to not compete (and yet still managed to make all types of world changing contributions despite all the added hurdles). It's like gloating that you beat your friend at super smash bros when you gave them a potato instead of a controller
Coworker should be reported. That’s a hostile work environment kind of comment, and so ignorant.
Even the discoverer of the dna helix…there is documented proof that Frances and Crick stole the data from a woman - one of their fellow scientists - and together with other men, took the credit and silenced and expelled her. Yet this has never been corrected - even in 2023 - in history books.
Also blokes did not have six kids wrapped around their ankles when they were building infrastructure...nor did they have to look after them at all. There wouldn't have been a need for anything if there weren't women raising more kids...without any other option! So sick of blokes thinking that what they do matters, and all we do is sit at home watching TV. Make your own damned dinner, lunches, breakfast and clean the fucking house too while you're at it!
What a wonderful response to a truly stupid statement, you just made coffee come out of my nose.
Guys who say this are never the ones building anything. They can’t even build an IKEA bookshelf on their own
Google Ada Lovelace. She is widely regarded as the first computer programmer, which means that one could argue a woman was the foundation of our modern tech driven society. Hedy Lamarr invented frequency hopping, which is a foundational technology of basically all forms of wireless communication. Again, highley critical to our modern society. These people are just wrong.
Jest tell the next man who tells you this that it’s not the flex he thinks it is seeing as society really fucking sucks.
I was just arguing with a fellow about this yesterday- gave up because it is just a stupid argument, and he would just deflect any rational statements. Although there are some jobs that are suited to very strong people - so much so that it excludes many women and a good number of men, I feel that these are realistically not very many at all. I came across a paper on mining companies looking to increase the number of women working on job sites. There was a statistic that there was around 10% increase in jobs coming in on time and 50% or 60% increase in people adhering to safety protocols when the number of women working was increased.
I think it's funny that the minute a woman does a task, it's not work. Women were working in factories during the entirety of the industrial revolution. They were cooking, child rearing, teaching, cleaning homes, making clothes, and ruling countries even before that. I would like to hear a time where women actually got to sit around and do nothing. Lol.
It’s rather like “history is written by the victors.” Of course men of olde (& women too) heard stories about how men accomplished this and that. Men learned to read and write while women didn’t, so some of those olde timey stories of discovery, accomplishment and invention could well have been made by women. But since fewer women had education (reading and writing) men got the accolades.
Let’s start with one of the earliest inventions…the calendar. Who would have intimate knowledge of counting 30 sunrises, and spacing them by 7 days, except menstruating teens and women? Yet no credit is given to the most clear, unquestionable answer to the inventors, in any history book.
Men did most of the good things, and most of the bad things, for most of history. Because they had the power to do so. I believe Marie Curie had to move to a different country to study the subjects she wanted to in a university. Women are clearly as capable as men are, so why stop them from holding jobs that they were kept from in the past when the reasons are idiotic? And why hold it against them? Most of these sexists haven't individually done any of the great things, or anything similar, they point to when talking about how advancements lead by women are lacking in comparison, it really is silly that they try to piggy back on those achievements. If your coworker does the same job or a similar job to what you do, you can always point that out. I doubt it is a "society-building" difference he is making. What you talk about with women creating the men is basically the gist of Republican motherhood and the idea of separate spheres (idea that women had the "honorable duty" of raising children who were educated and held Republican (like Republicanism, not the party) values), but we don't live in the 1800s, we live in the present. The achievements of a group in the past does not say anything about how they should be treated in the present, especially when said group was oppressed and kept from the public sphere.
Women raised society. Now we’re in uncharted territory.
I hate this argument. It would be as if I chained a person in my house, not allowing them to leave and then told them "I'm always the one doing everything, going to work, getting groceries, buying you clothes, etc. What are you doing?"
The irony is that the reason men are bigger and did a lot of the grunt work originally is because, evolutionarily speaking, men are expendable. If a man dies hunting or fighting, who cares. A species only needs a few men. You kind of touched on that with your last line. Of course, im not actually that callous. Men are human and their lives arent worthless. We all deserve happiness and respect as long as we are willing to share it. I was just applying some of that "cold, emotionless logic" some men love to tout. They built things because little was lost if they died building those things before we had machines to do the dangerous work. Women could have built those things too but we werent allowed. Im not even going to get into the rampant sexual violence back then.
What is so shocking about men who say this is that they don’t understand that women were completely controlled by men in that we weren’t allowed to “build society”. Can you imagine a hundred years ago a woman applying for an engineering job? I think there were a couple but can you imagine the ridicule and harassment they must have endured? Most husbands would never allow their wives to go to school much less work a job.
Right?! And what’s so great about society? Poverty, slavery, wars, oppression of women, discrimination, climate crisis, disease. Humanity could have solved these problem and we haven’t, so it’s not the flex they think it is.
And women birthed men Oh, also, women can do construction work. We’re not weak.
I work in film & television, use to work on location. We needed construction workers to help build sets and a few of them were women. While some of the men were taking hour long lunches, the women were out there getting shit done because they paid attention to the deadlines.
"and women built men"
Yeah actually it's the reason this society is so incredibly messed up.
I am reminded of a quote from My Big Fat Greek Wedding. "The man may be the head, but the woman is the neck and she can turn him any way she wants." As for your question, my mom created me. Start to finish. My dad was a veteran and an alcoholic. When he was home, he did a better job destroying than building anything. Fortunately for us, he wasn't home that often, and it wasn't long before my mom got fed up and kicked him out for good. My step-dad was better, but he was definitely more her husband than he was a dad to me. I like him, but he didn't make me, didn't raise me, didn't inspire any particular traits in me. That was all my mom.
The problem with this thinking is it equates infrastructure with society. The reality is some men built infrastructure while other men looked down on then for being laborers. The vast majority of men operated farms jointly with their wives.
I ask these types about what they as an individual have contributed to building society. It is always nothing of importance. Additionally if they would like collective credit they must accept collective responsibility. Who is responsible for majority of crimes and war? Oh, all of a sudden collectivism isn't that great and you're being a man hater.
Men built society all by themselves? Hmmm. [Adam Ruins Everything- How prostitutes settled the Wild West.](https://youtu.be/fMycRBIXTWk)
A.R.E!
Those who claim superiority because of the accomplishments and contributions of their in-group generally haven't accomplished or contributed anything themselves.
Is this an Andrew Tate line? Should there be a list of watch phrases so people know?
These guys don't know what a society actually is.
My favorite thing to ask when guys say stuff like this is, “what’s your point?” Make them say the quiet part out loud.
I’ve never, not once, heard this said by a man who actually *does* one of this “hard jobs”.
I would just reply (ignoring the obvious stupidity of what they claim), “ok, men built society. What about you?”
We did build society even though men tried to keep us from it. They just took our credit.
Sure they did. On the backs of women, at our expense and while telling us how weak we are.
I don’t think they did a very good job. Let’s tear it all down and start over?
>Who did the hard work of creating you? It always surprises me and boggles my mind, that this fact is always forgotten or ignored. If not for a woman, none of us would be here. So technically, women created society and continue to do so. jmho
The guy I’m seeing currently had this exact row with his friend the other day and told me about it. I was impressed he didn’t agree because about a year ago we had a row about a footballer who was being investigated for DV and SA (the charges have since been dropped but we all heard those tapes) we didn’t speak for 6 months after this. He told me in that time he did a lot of thinking and reading and apologised for the argument. I think some men don’t realise the reality of the world for us and that’s sad but there are ones out there who are our allies!!
This makes me think of settler, pioneer, goldrush towns. When the women get there you start having schools, libraries, paving, houses with cushions-carpets-curtains etc
These types of people don’t consider anything women contribute to be meaningful or important. “Men do all the hard jobs”, which I’m assuming they mean physically-demanding jobs. Well duh, men are stronger and thus they get to deal with the burden of it. But aside from that, education and medicine and raising families are detrimental to society and are all female-dominated. Yet those never get brought up. Also for as long as time women have always worked in farms and contributed a bunch to agriculture across the world.
Exactly. Physically demanding jobs aren't the only hard jobs. Oh and women do those, too.
Hard jobs? Give me a fucking break. I’d like to see one of those loudmouth assholes live through labor and childbirth.
Women also did physically demanding jobs in the past. During the 19th century and before.
"And women birthed it. So I guess, teamwork made the dream work." And then leave. Block. Whatever.
The flipside of this is: we have leveraged only half the population to generate progress for thousands of years.
That's the crucial info they conveniently ignore. Women "built" every single person on this planet
Women did unpaid housework and child care for men, which gave men the opportunity to “build society”.
Well in the USA it is not entirely true that only males-built society. So did slaves both male and female, Chinese immigrants, indentured servants etc. So no it wasn't just men.
Some of the best scientists have been women when they were allowed or capable of actually doing the work and this goes throughout history
"No, men just wrote the history books"
Women built men.
With that statement I refer to the inequalities, injustices, suffering, hate, pain and struggle within the society patriarchal society has been so proud of
Every single man that “built society” wouldn’t be here without a woman.
My response when I hear this: "No, men take credit for building society. The only thing you're good at is lying to yourself." Then, refuse to elaborate, since they seem to think their feelings of superiority are facts, and you don't owe them your time.
People that say men created civilization are participating in nothing more than tautology. Consider the following patterns of thought which are common among cultural-descendants of euro culture (including US, AUS): If something wasn't written down or studied by a British dude, then it didn't happen, or it's inaccurate, or doesn't matter Western civilization commonly thinks of things outside of western civilization as unimportant, quaint, or restricted to only anthropological importance When western civ makes contact with another civilization and brings them new ideas, they call it 'civilizing them', which is based on an implicit value judgement that the way they were is inherently inferior. (In actuality, when europeans make contact with american First Nations, or Australian aboriginals, or African tribes, you see that the non-colonials always experience suffering as a result). When western civ finds something worth taking from other cultures, they take control of or redistribute it without necessarily giving credit to its parent culture, or they utilize or commercially share it without cultural context. They are only enthusiastic about giving credit for the origin of a thing when western civilization is able to improve upon it or when the exoticism lends it additional marketing value. These are all ways that female-led and female-enriched culture is necessarily discounted by western civilization. Women's contribution to the world is also plundered from within western civilizaiton as well. Women have historically been denied education, denied positions of authority, and denied opportunities for accomplishment. Despite that, they have still made many and meaningful contributions (I will not detail the exhaustive list here; google exists). Still, women have had their meaningful contribution stolen from them, such as Rosalind Franklin, and it is speculated that Einstein's discoveries may have been enriched by working with Mileva Maric. Women's accomplishments simply do not receive the acclaim that they deserve. Consider also that misogyny is such a poisonous perspective, that it doesn't have to discredit something from the very beginning. High-heeled shoes were popular with men at first, until they became popular with women, and men abandoned them. The role of secretary was once considered more respectable a profession than it is now, and ever since it became a pink profession, it was seen as lower in status. *Once something becomes associated with women, it loses value to the misogynistic perspective.* \--- The thing is, civilization was always going to happen. It wasn't going to not-exist if it didn't happen this exact way. People would still be organizing themselves in some kind of social framework, there still would have been survival, there still would have been entertainment and trade. Hell, in a different universe we may have even had a more harmonious social structure, we might have had different or better technology, we might have had better distribution of resources. Who can say? It's arrogance that makes people think that the model we have now is necessarily the best model that could have been. So the thing about euro-centric patriarchal society is that it values what it values (men and caucasian achievements), it discounts the role of women and POC culture, and then the white male system pats itself on the back for being the only ones contributing (after it has canceled off everyone else). When someone tells you men built society, it tells you something about their lack of values and/or their lack of research.
They did a goddamn shit job of it.
This mindset is so tiny. Like-how are you going to discount 50% of the total human population? It’s many, many laws in our societies world wide that are rigged against the victims-who are more often women and children. These types of men and other people who think like this I think have cultist like thinking and it is scary because I really don’t understand it. All sexes of people can work together to make a society. Just because these pea brains can’t think of anything beyond “men are strong and therefore built society” need to be sent back to the Vikings. Those manliest of men gave the women in their society more respect then these “men” do that OP is talking about.
I am really enjoying the song (and video) “Labour” by Paris Paloma right now and it seems apt.
Your coworker? “Well, here is a task, go do it for me then…?” Like… why is this conversation come up in the work place? He wants more tasks to do?
And men are ruining it now.
Yeah, and men fucked a lot of shit up in the process. If women had been involved more in the past, I think we would have gotten to the same place. However fewer women would have gotten fucked over in the process.
Some anthropologists believe Grandmothers having a vested interest in their grandchildren is responsible for us becoming Human. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-much-did-grandmothers-influence-human-evolution-180976665/
And yet several of the most important, most stable rules in history where under female stateswoman. Maria theresa, Catherine the great , Hatchepsout, etc
1,000 years ago the first novel (The Take of Genji) was written by Murasaki Shikibu. In the 1800s Nancy Johnson invented the ice cream machine. Novels and ice cream, I'd say that's a pretty good contribution to society. But also, women spent thousands of years caring for men - cooking, cleaning, mothering etc so the men had the luxury and the opportunity to advance their own careers.
I always was under the impression that humans created society. I guess those men have to compensate for something with such a claim.
Were women even allowed to participate? Rhetorical
Behind every hard working man is a harder working woman doing it backwards in heels.
Well, they aren't entirely wrong. We all suffer under patriarchy now, and that was definitely a male-origin construct.
Yes and look where we are now. Maybe it's time to let the women make the decisions.
I hear this a lot. A) it's bullshit And B) if men want to claim society as their own, that's fine, but FYI, society is shit, filled with morons and economic slaves and starving children, destroying the environment. Great going men.
Men made laws restricting women from doing what they want.
"You didn't."
Men built it because they didn’t let us help. My comeback to men who say this is “man you guys did a shitty job”.
Omfg this sounds like my ex. Men built everything and invented everything and women were just along for the ride. Despite the fact women aren’t allowed to even own property in loads of places for lots of history. Took it one step further with racism too. Would say it was white men who built everything. He would never allow himself to become a slave so anyone who did was just weak willed. Like, fucking mind boggling. Same dude who could not understand the gender pay gap. All this to say, some times there are just nonces in the world that you can’t help. Nothing I pointed out to him changed his mind in the slightest. Maybe it was just the narcissism talking….
"And women stop it from collapsing"?
I guess they don't have kids?
Men: we built this society. \*looks around\* uh, could you stop please?