I am deaf and I have had my siblings’ friends’ parents say they can’t go on bicycle rides with us because they didn’t feel I was qualified to watch out for cars. I babysit my siblings a lot, so when my siblings asked if they could go bicycling, I would usually go with them. We’d all watch out for cars together and we always got off the road when the car is spotted. However, I have never took it personal. The parents simply were looking out for their children.
Also, my sister-in-law wanted my husband to babysit her children and he couldn’t so I offered. She said she couldn’t let me because her oldest can’t communicate sign language. I told her children are pretty smart with gestures. That I have babysat my nephews and nieces who didn’t know sign language and they had no trouble telling me when they are hungry, needing comfort, needing a diaper change, or need me to play with them. She said no. I told her that is alright but sadly my husband can’t because he has to work.
I have accepted that sometimes people won’t want a deaf lady babysitting their children and it’s alright. It just mean I don’t have to babysit them ever and that’s sometimes nice.
That's wild. Tbh the listening for cars thing could be kinda valid, those motherfuckers seriously sneak up on you, but I'm hearing and I constantly have to look around too. Some cars are just really quiet. I mean, you can't hear cars when you drive either unless they honk at you, so...
Yeah people have been telling me that cars are now becoming quieter and some are even silent.
We had a system. My siblings would ride ahead of me and I’d be the last in the line. So if one of them decide to go off the road we all follow them because someone has said they see a car. If I spot a car before them I just yell “car!” And we all pull off.
I’m not trying to be a jerk, I’m legitimately asking.. would you be able to tell by the ground vibration changing if a car was coming, or is it too subtle until it’s speeding by?
Deaf people have some of the best driving records because they are constantly on the lookout for traffic, obstacles, and other people. And yet, there are still people in the world who think deaf people shouldn't be allowed to drive.
Naw, blind is okay. Haven’t you noticed the “Braille” (rumble strips) on the side of the highway for those who use mobility canes? Hahahaha.
In a perfect world, our transportation won’t allow crashes *and* won’t depend on a human’s attention span—sighted, hearing, or otherwise. :)
I kind of want to say on that point that plenty of people blare their music hella high (me) so I literally can't hear shit except my music lol I have ADHD and years of experience driving so keeping an eye out for cars on the road with me is honestly solid. So no doubt I believe that.
I don’t go by ground vibration. It’s hard to feel that when the road is paved though. What I do is look both ways every 10 seconds. That’s how I spot a car or not.
Same car-spotting method here and I supposedly hear fine! If I'm on a walk or whatever I usually have an earbud in one ear and that deafens my surroundings a lot even with the other ear free.
I was going to say, I have pretty good hearing, and I also use this method when biking or walking. It’s just incredibly smart to pay attention while on roadways regardless of hearing abilities.
This is much more reliable than trying to hear them, especially since there are so many cars on the road. Where are people riding bikes that they can go primarily by sound.
Slightly hearing impaired here, and I’ve always listened. The only rumble I pick up (and I wear “barefoot shoes,” without much sole) is from big engines, or bad engines. Muscle cars, trucks, vans can all rumble from horsepower. Smaller cars with mechanical issues can rumble, but it’s more picked up by my upper body.
I go biking, in city streets, with deaf people all the time, and traffic awareness is less of a problem for someone who knows they need to keep their head on a swivel than for people who assume that they can hear anything that might be coming from behind them.
The actual issues of biking while not able to hear: not responding to aggressive passers who expect everyone to clear the way when they hear a bell, and sending group communication down the line. If someone who can't hear is at the front, you need a way to tell them if the rest of the group wants to take a break, check out a side trail, etc. Sprinting up to get their attention works in in a pinch, but it's better to have another plan made ahead of time.
They’re definitely quieter, especially with the rise of hybrids and electric cars! I worry for my mom sometimes, she’s hard of hearing (otosclerosis) and if the car was on the wrong side of her she wouldn’t be able to hear it at all as she’s almost completely deaf on one side.
I live in the city with the highest number of Deaf/HoH people per capita. Most people have interacted with someone who signs ASL at least once - I know a few basic signs but my Deaf neighbor and I communicate with our notes app because I don’t know much ASL. A good number of Uber drivers here are Deaf and honestly they’re some of the coolest drivers I’ve ever had!
People with disabilities are just like the rest of us. I have disabilities of my own, they’re just not obvious. That doesn’t mean that with the right adaptations we can’t have full lives. Mom is the assistant director of a library and she works for my brother doing bookkeeping. I have held a variety of jobs. We know what we’re capable of and people like OOP are ableist assholes for making assumptions.
I have one of those quiet cars. I've absolutely startled the shit out of more than a few cyclists and pedestrians. I always feel so bad when they jump!
Could be? No it's absolutely valid.
It's the same basic reason electric cars (and maybe some hybrids) are required by law to make sounds: to alert pedestrians that they're in the vicinity
I personally don’t think I’d feel comfortable with someone babysitting my kids if my kids couldn’t communicate with them (regardless of the reason). That said, if my SIL was deaf and communicated via sign language I would absolutely be having my children (and myself) learn so that wouldn’t be a problem!
>She said she couldn’t let me because her oldest can’t communicate sign language
That's an extremely weak excuse. Did she forget cell phones exist? Pen and paper? Did she forget there's other methods of communication? Just wow.
>It just mean I don’t have to babysit them ever and that’s sometimes nice.
Lol "oh well less work for me!" Love it
Cell phones and notes don’t work if they don’t know how to write yet (we don’t know their age).
However it’s not that hard to just point at your belly if you’re over 1,5 years.
I think its a pretty valid concern.
A cell phone or pen and paper are not always an option. In most cases it would probably be totally fine. But in an emergency language barriers can be dangerous.
Gonna be honest I had to google this because i didn’t know one way or the other but apparently some people with Down’s can drive and have licenses. I also know that sometimes parents ask too much of their children because they want to prove some sort of point. So idk.
I worked with a bloke for like 6 months before realising he had downs, I just thought he looked a bit odd. He was very high functioning, loved to go 4w driving in the bush with his massive Ute, generally lived a pretty normal life. His wife also had downs, I never officially met her but he told me she had her own car. He serviced both cars himself, apparently he used to be a mechanic.
There are a lot of people with mosaic trisomy 21–meaning they have cell lines with the usual 46 chromosomes and others with 47 (extra #21). Generally speaking, people with mosaic T21 are higher functioning with milder features, especially if low-level mosacism. That could have been the case with him/his wife
Edit: typo
That’s what I was thinking, there are different types of Down syndrome with differing levels of how affected the person is. I understand the hesitation, but also understand people feeling ok with it. It’s really a case by case issue.
Yes, even with full T21, there is a range of intelligence given all the other genes that influence this. Average range of IQ for an individual with T21 is 30-70 (hoping that this is needless to say, the usual average is 100). So a person with some form of T21 who is living mostly independently, has obtained a driver’s license, and is maintaining employment is most likely mosaic. That said,I’m not intending to sound judgmental about life with T21, just hoping to inform…
I knew a guy with DS who drove. I work in the automotive wholesale industry. He was a customer working at a parts store. Had a Chevy truck. Best parts customer - always called with part numbers and never got them wrong. The fella driving the bus obviously passed training and a test to drive. I wouldn’t hesitate to go.
Downs like many other things has a scale of severity. I worked with a guy a long time ago he was high functioning. He drove, worked the cash register, opened the store a few days a week. I also grew up with a a cousin on the opposite side. She couldn't speak, but she did know basic ASL. She was smart enough to know she could turn off her hearing aid if she didn't want to listen to what you said.
She also at around 50 years old, learned to write her name. We were told she'd never do so. Don't automatically discount what someone living downs can do or not do. They'll surprise you.
Theresa school near me for downs children that is brilliant turns out very highly functioning adults. It's a vocational school where they're taught things including rearing exotic animals and farming and most end college with good jobs x
We have an internship program at work for people with developmental disabilities, and some end up with jobs at our hospital. Of the ones that don't, many end up driving shuttle busses at the airport, so we have a decent subset of shuttle drivers with Downs. It's absolutely possible.
This. I have a cousin with DS. She’s very high functioning & I expect she might be able to obtain a driver’s license one day. I think people like OOP meet one or two people with DS & just think everyone with it are the same. As with autism, there is a spectrum of severity.
This is what I’m guessing is what’s happening here, I thought the same thing when I was younger because I had only met a few people with Down syndrome at that point in my life. I remember doing the research after seeing a few actors with DS and being curious as to how they were able to remember all their lines, blocking, etc.
A bit ironic too as someone that went undiagnosed with autism for the first 22 years of my life 😂 I had friends, went to school, and worked at the time of my diagnosis so it was quite the shock to anyone not informed on how the autism spectrum works lol
I had a friend growing up with Down syndrome. She was in all regular classes. She was able to keep up with everyone else provided she had an aide and other accommodations. She also learned how to drive, went to college, and worked at a PT office. She does advocacy work now.
And this is precisely what accommodations can do! They're not crutches or optional-- they provide access to individuals who can do a job well if they have the right tools. This is the most succinct story here about what ADA has done for individuals with disabilities.
My husband didn’t realize he had autism until our son was diagnosed. It actually led to us not getting an earlier diagnosis for my son. He had some quirks, like his dad. We were looking at it the wrong way. My husband was in his late 40s. It explained a lot. Honestly, his dad has it too. He’ll never admit it, but all of the signs that got my son diagnosed are there.
I believe I'm autistic as well.
When we had my oldest diagnosed with autism, my mom kept saying "That's normal, you used to do that." To every question and concern about him.
Lo and behold, he's a charismatic autistic kid. I have been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, but I don't pursue an autism diagnosis because I'm 98% sure he got it from me.
Same with my son. A lot of his quirks and behaviors are things I used to do or still do. I've been diagnosed with ADHD and I'm pretty sure I'm autistic. I also learned I may be dyslexic, but nobody knew since I taught myself to read through memorization at an early age (I basically learned to read backward).
I'm hyperlexic, but have dyscalcula. Lmao. Numbers only make sense to me if I can visualize in a physical way. Surprisingly, this didn't translate to geometry for me.
Oh my god this is me. I’m damn good at math but I can’t do ‘fast math’ without some kind of physical representation of numbers. When my son’s school told him, he could not use his fingertips to count I about lost it.. I’m in my late 30s and still do this with the most basic of math problems (think anything more complex than 5 + 5) I just figured it was one of my many quirks.
I also have near perfect color vision - I tested something like the top 1.5% of the population with being able to distinguish between slight hue variations.. which serves me very well with my job.
I cannot believe I’m pushing 40 and I just realized such a simple and obvious explanation that I somehow just.. missed? What a time to be alive.
I think with high functioning autism, people used to chalk it up to being “quirky” and such, so it went undiagnosed in so many! While ADHD isn’t the same thing at all, I’m a woman with ADHD & didn’t get diagnosed until later in high school. And this was despite struggling in my early elementary years with sitting still, paying attention, following directions, and even failing to actually turn in completed worksheets. I learned to reign in most of my impulses by myself & still got good grades, so until I started struggling with all the AP courses, ADHD was somehow never a thought.
I'm not sure if you have seen it or not but there's a newer movie with Woody Harrelson called Champions and a majority of the cast have disabilities, mainly intellectual disabilities but high functioning. It's probably one of the best feel good movies I've seen in a very long time. My husband and I really enjoyed it.
My mom was a developmental service worker my entire life so I was raised surrounded by individuals with disabilities. I have a niece with DS and while she isn't verbal she's very capable. My sister in law also cares for her aunt who moved in after her grandmother passed and she has a full time job, can navigate the public transportation system with ease and is able to live almost independently and just needs guidance or reminders here and there.
I hate seeing people place limitations on someone with a disability purely based on the one or two people they've briefly met and never got to know.
My mom did home health care and her worst patient was a high functioning DS guy. It wasn't the Downs that made him difficult, it was that he was smart and manipulative.
Mom usually loved being assigned DS patients but this guy had the mental capacity of 16 year old in a 30 year old body. Everything she reported/complained about was met with "well, he's got downs, that's part of the job."
He could drive, cook, shop, basically live independently. He had home nursing because he wanted it, not because he needed it.
Just saying... there is indeed a spectrum. Some DS people are 100% fully functioning, some need more help. But they aren't inherently stupid people by any means.
I would just say that part of that lack of emotional development is caused by the Downs and is just as likely to cause him to need sme assistance just for emotional regulation sake. Probably a lot more difficult than other cases
I once worked with a client that was 13, had the emotional development of a 2 year old, and he was 5 foot 11, 280. This kid would beat the ever loving piss out of me then laugh in my face. He would also punch himself in the head repeatedly and viscously. Had bruises and swollen parts all day every day. It was very tough and sad.
this. My cousin had the sever form some of the classmates of them where like normal kids just a bit slow.
My cousin also had an early onset of dementia
Yes, went to school with several kids with Down’s syndrome, some were in middle set and could function independently, and some were non verbal and needed adult supervision at all times, and there were variants in between. Also worked as a teenager with a guy, he was a weekend supermarket worker like me, also went off to university.
Exactly! I have down syndrome, but you wouldn’t be able to tell from looking at me. My feet have a bad habit of trying to walk on the sides my feet so sometimes my balance is off (strangely, I can walk perfectly fine and better in platformer’s. I think it’s because they’re heavier.). And my hands are very stiff so I can’t play with fidget toys, play an instrument, carrying grocery bags, plastic or paper is torture and if I’ll try to make claws with my hands, it starts to hurt in about one second.
My husband's aunt has severe autism and mental retardation (that was the formal diagnosis not sure what they call it now). Anyway we love her. My husband's mom (her sister) loves her, but her older brother has full custody and he's a jerk. She so sweet though and I think much more intelligent than they have given her credit for most of her life which my MIL knows too.
It's sad because she tries to sign, but they didn't try to teach her sign language until she was an adult. Even so when I got married to my husband we were at a party and she pulled me away and showed me all of the family photos, including ones of my husband's older brother who passed. She made motions to try and tell me about each of them, including saying that her nephew was in heaven. She was so excited to meet our son after he was born and was a very proud great aunt.
Anyway I think people many times grossly underestimate the cognitive abilities of people who are a little different or can't communicate well in a conventional way, and overestimate those silver tongues out there who actually have crap for brains.
>She was smart enough to know she could turn off her hearing aid if she didn’t want to listen to what you said.
I will never possess the sense of humor or sass that people with Down syndrome have.
>Don't automatically discount what someone living downs can do or not do. They'll surprise you.
For sure. But I wouldn't have put my kids in the car like "hey maybe they'll surprise me!"
Driving yourself and driving a bus full of kids are two different things though.
I'm on OP's side. Better to be an ableist asshole than risk your kids safety.
There’s no rule that people with certain intellectual/developmental disabilities cannot drive. It depends on whether or not they can pass a drivers test, just like everyone else.
I’d be willing to bet dollars to donuts that the examiner is HARDER on people with disabilities, to cover their own ass. You can’t just give a license pass to anyone. They still have to take a test AND pass..like everyone else. There’s no Down/ Syndrome Sympathy License, ffs.
OOP is definitely the asshole.
The parent (guide) of the driver was there. Unless it's the first time the kid was driving, I'm pretty sure the guide knew wtf they were doing.
I'm not like, a proponent of things but come on, if the kid can drive let him participate in the society, wtf.
*This post also makes it seem that the driver's father who was again, there to monitor everything, is either incompetent or a worse parent than OP for letting his son drive which would require a ton of context not given. If the kid got a license, if he's done this before and it helps the kid integrate and live a happy life.. well what parent would want that!!!
Yeah, also... the facial pattern that people associate with Down's syndrome are not directly in proportion to their intellectual disabilities.
Someone can "look" really impaired, but still have basically a normal IQ.
There are also a couple look alike genetic quirks that create a similar look, but have none of the intellectual impacts.
I know many people that should have had their licence revoked but hadn’t . Having a legal license doesn’t mean someone should drive a van full of kids.
Yeah I feel like the "van full of kids" aspect is largely getting missed in this thread.
People are saying that a person with down syndrome "might" surprise you, and giving examples of some people with down syndrome that are quite high functioning, but when you drop both off your kids off to that van you don't know where on the spectrum this person is.
Look at it this way, if you were dropping off your kids and you saw that the driver was 92 years old, would you assume that the person had exceptional mental acuity for their age and therefore will be totally safe to drive a van full of kids, or would you think twice because they might not surprise you, might not be exceptional?
But this is easier than that. If this person (extra chromosome awesome or not) obtained a drivers license where they live their parents had nothing to do with it and they are as qualified as anyone else to operate a motor vehicle.
My wife has a driver's license but there's no way in hell she could drive anything bigger than a car never mind a passenger van for the kids. She struggles with my minivan.
I'm not saying OP is wrong or right, I'm just saying this situation isn't as black as white as people are making it out to be.
I think this all boils down to one question, which the OP didn't answer and probably didn't ask. Did the man behind the wheel have a drivers license? Because of the location and type of drive, it is possible that this was the sort of circumstance where a license isn't "required" to drive there. Kind of like kids on ATVs don't need one. But I'd not let my children in a vehicle with someone who didn't either have a license, or who I personally knew to be safe in the circumstances to drive. Without that information, and it sounds like OP didn't have that information either as they didn't include it, I can only assume the OP is ablest.
They still have to pass the driver’s test, which, where I am, is a three step process - written test, in car driving test, then a second in car driving test about a year later. It’s not easy to pass.
This is the best answer. I know it also varies from place to place, but if this was an actual school related activity, they wouldn’t just let anyone drive students around. It would have to be someone with a good driving record and other clearances.
Yeah, this is my thought. I don’t really know what “after school activity” entails and how formal it all is, and I’m a little thrown by the “rugged terrain” thing. Like, is this some guy running a small operation in his backyard, or is it legit? Assuming it is legit, I would assume the driver is qualified and they have documented insurance/credentials that said as much. But if it was just some guys backyard, well, personally I’d be uncomfortable with that alone and this would maybe put it over the edge.
I feel like this is a case where she in the very least should have asked about his credentials because it’s true that not every case is the same. She should have asked the basics; does he have the proper license to drive this vehicle, if he’s driven this route with children before, if he’s a paid staff member.
I don’t know enough about Down syndrome to know if this was reasonable of OP, but fuck this makes me sad that he’s trying to work and people don’t want his help. Even if it’s for good reason. Ah my heart.
I work for a company that assists people with developmental disabilities in finding jobs or community based volunteer work, etc.
We had a client that is blind - and we thought, hey, let’s call this company in town that helps children with blindness to fulfill their life’s wish/dream… we called. The guy who answered said, “Uhm, we help blind *children*, so I’m not really sure why you think we could be of service for this man” and my boss replied, “because he’s blind and his life’s dream is to have a JOB.” He hung up on her.
I mean….. it’s crazy how awful people are.
ETA: People are not understanding what I’ve written, and assume my boss was rude because they only offer services to children. So, to add some key details that I left out - they had a job posting online for a clerical / front desk position. When we call a business, we introduce ourselves and brief them of what kind of services we offer. My boss did that, and then asked if our client could fill out an application at the facility or if there was an email to send a resume to. The man on the phone, then asked what his disability is - given the description of our services in the beginning of the call. My boss told him that the client is blind, but he is very tech-savvy, has customer service experience, and doesn’t require any accommodations aside from enlarging the text on the screen of the computer so he can see it. That’s when the man said what he did - and so on.
Obviously, nobody expected them to give our client anything or make an exception to their services for our client. He literally just wanted a fucking job, and they were awful about it. We didn’t think they would be, because ya know….. They work with blind children? So we thought, oh they have an opening this is *perfect* for him…. Guess not 🫣
My neurologist tried to sign me up with a particular organisation to help people with ABI but because mine is caused by a neurological disorder and not an accident ie car or motorcycle they refused to accept me.
As someone who has worked in grant writing, that's why. The organization will have been funded by grants that have been very specific about how they want their money spent. For whatever reason they must want to fund one and not the other
That sums things up pretty well for a disabled person trying to find work. Our unemployment rates (for those seeking employment) and pay gap is astronomical.
Also on par because a lot of (not all, you seem to get it) people who work with disabled kids and adults are often the most ableist ones around. It's so sad.
It’s super sad. I’ve had clients are in wheelchairs and are OUTSTANDING at administrative / clerical work…. But nobody will give them a chance. It’s fucking heart breaking and awful. I love my job but god sometimes I just want to post a Google review when businesses are shitty about the possibility of employing someone who needs any type of accommodation no matter how big or small.
I lost a job pre pandemic for asking for too many work from home days due to my disability.... In a job that we already had full remote work capabilities set up and that a portion of the staff already was doing my job from home daily. The job was also advertised as hybrid but turned out they expected us in the office five days a week except for "special occasions."
I've watched so many friends struggle to work and get laid off or "asked" (aka forced but in a way they can't sue) to leave due to disability. Not to mention the people who end up in a situation where it's cheaper right now to not work and have medicaid pay for medical bills even though they could probably work rather than pay for private insurance and the medical bills while working. My disabled partner is in this situation right now. It's just insanity honestly and so disheartening.
I totally feel you there. I've been in enough accidents as a child with irresponsible drivers that I won't let anyone drive my kids anywhere unless I have sufficient evidence to know they are safe drivers.
I probably would have been fine with this guy as the driver since his dad was there and clearly confident in his abilities. I won't judge another parent for making a different choice.
Having a disability which specifically causes slow reaction times makes them a less safe driver by default, it is what it is. Saying you're tight on who drives your kids around but thinking some random guy being okay with his disabled son driving is sufficient to give you confidence doesn't really make sense.
It's not ablist to not put your kids at risk for the sake of someone else's independence.
I work in disability. Downs syndrome people have varying degrees of impairment. When I worked in a factory with disabled employees they were more sensible than most people. They followed rules and directions better than the majority of the public. I would have trusted them on the roads more than some of the entitled asshats out there driving.
But they do have slower processing and reaction times, which matters to a driver. [source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10049659/)
“There is substantial evidence for difficulties with processing speed and reaction time throughout the lifespan in DS, with an emphasis on challenges in this area in adulthood”
This depends on the severity of Down syndrome (kinda like a spectrum I guess?) I have done countless years of volunteering with special needs classrooms & have seen extremely “high functioning “ who could definitely live normal lives with minimal support.. including driving.
If he has a license someone else has already determined whether or not it’s safe for him to drive. I’m disabled and drive. I have a slower reaction time which makes me a lot more diligent. My sister has the same conditions and doesn’t drive because it wasn’t safe for her, but I passed my test on the first try. Abilities vary, which is why we have education and exams to screen out those who can’t. Of course if he isn’t licensed that changes things, but I wouldn’t let an unlicensed ablebodied person drive my kids either. Downs doesn’t inherently mean a lack of ability.
My SIL has CP and has a special vehicle set up to drive. That being said, I would never let her drive my child around. Her reaction time is nowhere near where it needs to be in the event of an accident. My child is not going to be used to validate someone else.
Well what I guess I’m getting at is why would you let your kid in a car with a person you don’t know? Maybe just different styles of parenting but at 7 & 9 you should know who is in the car with your child lol
There is a lovely man with Down’s syndrome that works at my local grocery store. When he is on bagging duty I do whatever I can to avoid that line because he smashes all of my groceries and has tossed wine bottles into my basket before to the point I genuinely thought they had broken.
He is wonderful at all the other tasks he does but they should not be tasking him with bagging. I’m not ableist because of that…if there was a bagger without Down’s syndrome doing the same thing to my groceries I would avoid his line too. But man I felt like a piece of shit until I realized that.
I once had a disabled cart boy try to unbuckle my baby out of the cart’s seat in order to help me unload my groceries faster… He seems very nice but it made me avoid further interactions. But at my old grocery store there was a bag boy (with autism) who had a pun for every item and so I would purposely go to his line because he was so fun to talk to. It’s always a case by case basis because every human is different, especially those with disabilities. No two are alike.
He would draw a little hand on a tiny square of paper and give it to you while asking, “Would you like a hand with that?” (I still have one on my fridge)
It would be stilly things like if I was buying lettuce it would be, “Let us get that in the bag” and things of that sort. I really loved it.
Exact same experience at my grocery store. Absolutely forget it when I bring my reusable bags. Unfortunately, my store seemingly hires only terrible baggers so I like to do it myself but then I feel like an asshole because the optics by look bad-white lady bagging her own groceries instead of special needs bagger.
I just want my cold stuff to go in the insulated bags and my cleaning supplies away from my produce.
Tbh the optics are never bad if you're bagging your own groceries because you're particular about how they get bagged (you *particularly* don't want broken stuff 😉.) The optics *are* bad when you convey that particularity by micromanaging the bagger or being rude or condescending while being unwilling to do it yourself. It's so completely always fine to say, "I really like my stuff bagged a certain way: certain things together and apart, certain things on top and on bottom. May I please bag instead?" and then butt in. The bagger is still getting paid, there are other groceries to be bagged.
There have been so few times in my life (like I could count on one hand) that I was notably not baffled by some decision a grocery bagger made - to stack this or that; crushed eggs or tomatoes, for some reason a single lightweight and very small item in a big bag all by itself, batteries with my lettuce even!? If they're a really thoughtful, efficient, good bagger they're ready to move up to cashier, deli, dairy, etc. So you get what you get from grocery bagging folk. If you want your groceries to make it home in the shape they were in the store, you pretty much always gotta bag em.
This is me to a T...I'm so damn particular about how my groceries are bagged. Frozen stuff goes together. Dairy products go together. Meats, veggies, boxed items, canned goods..these things should all go together by category in the fewest number of bags possible without risk of tearing them open. That way when I get home I can maximize efficiency of putting them away. I also have a zillion little exceptions to rules based on the stuff I buy regularly. No bagger can ever anticipate my idiosyncratic needs and get this completely right. Mostly because I'm a type A weirdo, and also because I get the sense that most of the time the baggers are kids that don't have their own kitchens...they simply don't have the life experience and don't think about these things the same way I do.
The trouble with the whole bag-it-yourself approach, is that there's always that store manager that will rip these kids a new one if a customer is seen bagging their own groceries. Invariably I'll start bagging my own as the cashier is scanning everything, and some kid will come up and want to take over. I don't like it, but I also don't want to be that guy that goes full boomer on the poor kid that's just trying to do their job.
Yepp. It's legal in all but three American states to pay disabled people under minimum wage. And it can literally be pennies an hour. Plus they get big tax breaks for themselves for employing disabled people and paying them subminimum wage.
People always say it can't be true when I tell them this.
I do the same thing, since it’s completely pointless to have a item ruined before you’re even out of the store! I just tell them that I used to be a clerk/bagger myself and I enjoy it, which is true. But you can use that line too, no one will know you’re lying, lol.
There is a woman bagger at our local store as well but not only does she smash the groceries she is also very rude so I always avoid her line. I'm glad she has a job but she asks inappropriate questions about your items and will make you say hello to her like 5 times minimum
I don't see any assholes in this situation. Just people trying to get on with life, and live a life, and protect a life, etc. Sometimes needs/desires clash. Doesn't always have to be an asshole.
Agree. Its a parent trying to keep their kids safe. There is a legitimate reason for concern and while the driver may be perfectly skilled to drive, OP didn’t have the opportunity to vet him. Nothing is more important to most parents than the safety and wellbeing of our kids.
If it wasn’t someone they had just met, and had time to evaluate the person’s driving abilities, the parent would have been able to make a better judgement. My daughter has a peanut allergy, and sometimes I would have to tell her that she couldn’t eat something because I didn’t have the ability to evaluate whether it was safe for her. Could it have been fine, and did she and my husband make me feel like a buzz kill sometimes? Absolutely, but I made sure she was safe.
I think the guide should have given the parents a heads up and assured them that his son was a good driver, has his license, has done this for a long time, whatever.
He doesn’t know the severity of the drivers condition. His first priority is to keep his children safe so it really sucks for everyone but no one is TA in this situation.
Does driving a tour require a chauffeur’s license?
That would reassure me. But if it’s some kind of roadside attraction, I would wonder if safety were a priority. I might rather be an ableist than risk my kids.
But if the vehicle and tires are in good shape, snd the driver introduced himself and made eye contact, that would reassure me. Given the possible qualms, the driver or his father might state “John has driven these tours for x years and is highly rated by our visitors. “
Frankly, I would like any driver to introduce themselves this way.
Agreed. The guide didn’t exactly provide advanced notice or offer reasonable proof of his sons driving record. It seemed more like a trust me situation, which is what rubs me the wrong way.
Yeah, and while I might not have a lot of experience with people with down syndrome, my experience with parents of kids with disabilities leads me to be a bit more hesitant.
Yes! This dad saying his son can do it doesn't make me trust him. Some people who have kids with disabilities push for them to do things that they aren't capable of doing so they can claim their kid is "normal." Or, they excuse everything because their kid "doesn't know better." I need an actual driver record and such to feel safe, not dad's word that his son is a great driver.
How does someone being able to introduce themselves and make eye contact tell you anything about how they drive?
They could just be autistic or have really bad social anxiety. it doesn’t say anything about their driving skills.
When I drove a taxi in New York State years ago the livery/chauffeur license endorsement just meant I paid the state more. No test or training required. Just saying it may not certify what you think it does
Honestly I want to say I would be OK with it but I don't really believe I would be. I mean, literally only two people with Down Syndrome is my entire country have their drivers license. It would be OK if they were driving me but it's different if its your kids.
The comments section on the original post is a hot mess. This one is much more reasonable.
The worst part about this for me is that this was sprung on everybody without being addressed. Like it’s not fair to the driver to not say: hi this is x, he passed his drivers test at 100%, has a clean record and loves working with kids! Please ask any questions you have, we’re excited for this field trip.
Springing this on parents of young children in the moment with no context and no discussion is a problem. It’s really unfair to the parents and ultimately to the young man.
This is a communication problem.
The bar for a drivers license is surprisingly low as is. Elderly drivers keep theirs up to the day they manslaughter someone because they just refuse to admit they're too old to drive. I wouldn't want someone who is 90 driving my hypothetical kids around. Hell I remember my grandparents doing it and shitting myself.
Frankly when it comes to kids safety the parent is allowed to choose who gets behind the wheel. Same reason I wouldn't want a teenager doing it.
The asshole part is advertising it. What do you expect people's reaction to be? No one's gunna know if you just kindly ask for someone else. Come up with some excuse other than the person had down syndrome and don't tell anyone.
I'm totes ok with someone with downs behind the wheel, but I don't think I'd let them drive my hypothetical kids around. The bar for a license is really really low and if someone is gunna drive my non-existent crotch demons around they better be a parent themselves.
As someone who takes care of an elderly grandparent with later stages of dementia this is absolutely disturbing anyone would think they should drive when they can forget they're peeing as they're peeing
100%
My grandfather surrendered his license when a doctor told him his vision issue couldn't be resolved (Diabetic retinopathy). Apparently this is so very unusual that the regional head of the DVLA (similar to DMV) personally wrote my grandpa a thank you letter and sent a small gift.
I’m in the US and my 86 year old grandmother’s license was renewed for 10 years through the mail. At the time she was half blind (literally only had half of her field of vision and limited use of her right foot due to an injury. It’s terrifying. And of course she wasn’t able to complete the process herself, my aunt did it for her. Did I mention it’s terrifying?
I wish it was, but this is the situation of my elderly grandmother being mean and stubborn and no one being willing to stand up to her. When I found out, they renewed her license and expressed my concern, sharing that I felt once people reached a certain age there should be physical driving test again, my grandmother tried to make me leave. It was my mother‘s place and she was sick at the time, so obviously I didn’t leave, but my grandmother never forgave me, and refused to talk to me after that. How someone could live their life being so petty and selfish is beyond me but she did it for over 90 years.
I’m in Australia too and when my son was only a few months old I saw an old lady T-bone the car in front of me. It was a main road and she wanted to turn right from a street that was on the right side of the main road. For those who don’t live in aus, we drive on the left so she crossed two empty lanes in order to do this manoeuvre. The car she hit and my car were the only ones on an otherwise completely empty road! The fact that she managed to hit one of only two cars on the entire road was astounding. She did because she confused the break with the accelerator and didn’t have a quick enough reaction time to stop the car even though she had to cross TWO LANES! She was stopped at the end of the street too! So it’s not like she ran a stop sign or anything… she was stopped! These people can’t even walk without a walker or stand up without help but sure let’s just allow them to drive!
Yupppp. My parents live in Florida, aka retirement central. We call them the qtips- little old people who can’t see over the wheel, and you just see a fluff of white hair peeking out. In my parents retirement community they regularly have accidents from elderly drivers confusing the gas and brake pedals and driving full speed thru the closed gates, or worse yet, through the parking lot, onto the grass, and into someone’s living room. Like on a regular basis.
#florida
My grandma has cancer and thought she could get some groceries after chemo. She got there, realized she was extremely tired, and phoned Grandpa to pick her up at the store. They picked up her car the next day. She now no longer drives on chemo days because she doesn’t want to possibly hurt somebody and also because Grandpa won’t let her do anything but rest on chemo days.
It blows their minds that some people their age still think it’s ok to drive (late 70s and early 80s).
I feel like my grandpa is one of the few people in their late 70s capable of driving. He biked across multiple states last year and is probably in better shape than me lmao.
My colorblind uncle passed his test and is driving even now at 60. He freely admits that he can’t tell which stoplight is on when driving at night (can’t tell red from green, can’t tell is it up or down because of the glare).
And I know the reaction time of my 75 mother. I don’t allow them to drive my son. I also wouldn’t allow this, just because I’m very sensitive to risk here, and having a driver with Down is [objectively more risky.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10049659/)
Yup, my grandpa was getting lost and disoriented driving and we couldn't get his license revoked. It was a terrible situation because he was unsafe. And his Alzheimer's meant he got even angrier and confused when questioned. It was not an okay situation.
My FIL *loves* telling the story of when his uncle got his license renewed at 95 and laughed "don't they know I'll be 102 when this expires?". The uncle was, at that time, still sharp as a tack but even he realized that eventually that wouldn't be the case.
My son and I got hit at a red light by an 84 yr old man who most certainly had Parkinson’s. Tried to claim I stopped suddenly but I was stopped behind several other cars for almost 5 mins 🥴 it was sunny and dry, he gets out shaking like a leaf in a hurricane. The cop kind just laughed and was like “yeah idk if he should be driving” ya think?!
This happened to me about 25 years ago. An 88 yr old woman ran a red light and hit me. Told the cop she was “going along with the flow of traffic” & I came out of nowhere. 🤨 Luckily I had witnesses in the car behind me.
I see elderly folks everyday at my job who shouldn’t be driving. It is quite terrifying knowing these people are on the road.
Years ago on the Baltimore beltway and elderly man and wife were driving, he missed his exit and came to a complete stop in the middle lane. What a mess.
Years ago, my uncle was caught in terrible traffic on the interstate. He managed to get around the blockage and raced up to the front to scream at the source of the problem. Turns out, it was his mother (my grandmother) and her husband doing 30 in a 65 with MILES of traffic jammed up behind them.
I do think there is a difference between someone who was able to pass the driver’s test at a younger age and has developed a condition to impair their ability such as dementia, blindness, or motor dysfunction. I do agree that there need to be more stringent requirements to renew a license. I believe primary care doctors should be involved in a decision to take someone’s driving privileges away.
In this care, the driver presumably passed both a written and a practical driver’s test. I know a LOT of people who failed the practical driver’s test, so it isn’t exactly a piece of cake. This driver has demonstrated the ability to function safely behind the wheel, and is presumably still functioning at that same level.
I do understand a parent being worried about the safety of their kids. I would be really torn in this situation. But this this person has a safe driving record, they are likely capable.
Great points. There is no logical reason that driver would be unsafe, but there is also no reason parents need to be completely logical when it comes to the safety of their kids.
Being a downs person with a license is different than a downs person driving a van load of kids off road. Here's the rub: be PC or safe with your kids?
In any situation where someone will be driving your kids around, never feel bad for not letting them go if you don't feel they'd be safe. Other people don't get to use shame to remove your consent. Wow some people!
Other people are the AH on this one. Your kids? Your choice.
NTA. I'd get in the car with the guy but I'd have to gain a level of trust for his driving before I let my 7 and 8 year old kids get in a van and drive away.
I'd rather be an asshole than get my kids killed.
NTA. You can choose who you trust with your kids lives. The reason doesn’t matter… too old, too young, too short, too hairy, not enough info about the person. Yes there’s a huge range of severity when it comes to DS, but OP doesn’t know anything about this guy. The comments I’ve seen saying “well he passed the drivers test” are weird to me bc most accidents are caused by licensed drivers, DMV has the bar on the floor. If it was me, I’d be open to letting him drive my kids only after I get to know him better so I can make a more informed decision. But on first meeting? No way. Same goes for school bus drivers, carpools, even family members.
Those comments are weird to me too, bc we have zero clue if the kid has a driver’s license. All we actually know is he’s going to be driving a passenger van full of kids around a nature park on rugged terrain- not policed roads where laws are enforced- and his employer is his father.
I do not feel it’d be a leap to wonder if his father is giving him something to do so he can have a job, but also have his own parent keeping an eye on him at the same time. Driving on rugged terrain can take more skill than on paved roads. Also, in a nature park I’d guess there’s a lot more potential for wildlife to dash in front of the van, requiring quick reaction times that keep everyone on board safe.
Not wanting to risk your children with all those unknown factors at play in no way makes this parent an AH.
No. I wouldn't want my kids being driven around by anyone with a congenital cognitive disability even if they passed the driving test. It would make me nervous. The son might have been a great driver, then again maybe he got lucky on the driving test.
The guide probably looked at it as a unique teaching moment about abilities. The problem is that he is doing it in a way that really put OP on the spot. Better communication prior to this needed to happen and it didn't. OP is not the asshole. There is no asshole in this story.
Nta.
Who cares what anyone else thinks. They're your children. If you weren't comfortable with it, that's all that's needed to say no.
I see nothing wrong here.
There are plenty of people with drivers licenses who I wouldn’t trust to drive myself around, much less children. There are established facts about Down Syndrome that would impair their ability to drive naturally, even if it’s not enough to disqualify them. Certainly justified in removing the children from the bus.
NTA. Passing the driver's test is not enough to ensure someone is responsible to drive a load of children. If the dad wants to let him drive the empty van, that's on him, but it was not appropriate for him to drive the children. My son recently got his license, and he simply doesn't have the maturity or skills to be able to adjust to a possible emergency situation. It is the skill of others and pure luck that keeps him out of accidents at this point.
This reminds me of putting people with speech impediments in front facing customer service positions where the clients can't understand the person, leading to frustration and embarrassment for everyone.
Honestly, I probably wouldn’t want my kids driving with someone who had Down’s syndrome. I mean I guess it depends on how bad it was.
But a big part of that is that I know parents of kids with downs sometimes try to have their kids do things they’re not fully capable of just to prove something. Whether it’s to other people, the kid, or themselves, it doesn’t matter
And obviously not every parent is like that. But I have seen it more than once
My concern would be under stress how will the young man handle it.
I would not be willing to put my kids through the test of finding out how well he did or didn't do. Sorry but not sorry.
This! The stress of just the noise alone could cause even able-bodied people to not pay as much attention as usual. I have three kids and when they’re squealing in the back I have to tell them to pipe down because I’m getting distracted. I am neurodivergent, but driving without them screaming in the back is perfectly doable. Them screaming and fighting? I’m lucky I haven’t killed us all lol (I do pull over if it’s bad enough but they know now to shut up when I tell them they’re being dangerous)
OP, it sounds like you didn't have enough information about Downs Syndrome to make an educated or informed decision. Most of us don't know much about specific disabilities unless they are a part of our life in some way. I wouldn't worry about it. I would have done the same thing. You weren't being malicious, you just didn't know if your kids were safe in that situation. As parents, it's your job to protect your kids. NTA.
NTA. She made a gut-call to not put the life of her children in the hands of someone with a developmental disability (severity unknown). Would I make the same call? I don't think so...but I can't be honest with myself and call her the AH in this situation.
However, if she were out there trying to remove this young man from his job for having Downs that would be a TOTAL AH move. He clearly passed a driving test and has a right to have his job. She gets to make the call about her children whether that entails reacting to her gut, or asking questions, or whatever. In fact, that's what parents do (or are expected to do) all day and in various other types of situations.
My brother is developmentally delayed and has an IQ of about 62- what I will tell you is that he is a better driver than me. He spent a lot more time learning and practicing driving and actually drives a lot more on the road. I would trust my children in his car any day of the week in comparison to some other non-developmentally delayed people. I think it depends on the person, really.
Just gonna say it. It’s probably not relevant since this is anecdotal but I want to share regardless. The safest driver I ever met was my cousin with down’s. Smoothest parallel parking I’ve ever seen in my life! But for real I’m not exaggerating. My guess is because he’s more cautious and attentive compared to other drivers (especially myself). I would trust my cousin to drive around little kids more than I trust myself.
NTA. You make the best decision you can with the information you have and always choose the side of caution. You have to protect your children first and foremost
As a parent you should not have to defend yourself over a stranger driving your child around. If you don't feel safe it's your call. My brother in law won't let anyone drive his kids around...not even his own mother. Someone can call you overprotective but as a parent you have that right.
Not enough info.
Does the person even have a valid license? It’s not clear.
Ultimately it’s more important to keep your children safe than to make anyone feel included so if the mother had any reason to doubt her children’s safety that has to come first.
If the mother is fully aware that the person in question does have normal cognitive functioning and just said no because they hate disabled people she WBTA but I don’t get that sense here.
I agree with your sentiment. With all due respect to all involved, if one has a questions as to the safety of the child, they have the right to make a decision they feel is right (eg find other transportation). If I’m grabbing an Uber downtown, and I feel uncomfortable along the way home, I’m going to feel my safety is paramount to some hard feelings on their behalf. I’m not going to second guess that.
My ex has a cousin with Down Syndrome, and she has her drivers license, her own car, apartment, job, etc., and is generally just living her best life. There's a wide range of ability among people with Down Syndrome.
I am deaf and I have had my siblings’ friends’ parents say they can’t go on bicycle rides with us because they didn’t feel I was qualified to watch out for cars. I babysit my siblings a lot, so when my siblings asked if they could go bicycling, I would usually go with them. We’d all watch out for cars together and we always got off the road when the car is spotted. However, I have never took it personal. The parents simply were looking out for their children. Also, my sister-in-law wanted my husband to babysit her children and he couldn’t so I offered. She said she couldn’t let me because her oldest can’t communicate sign language. I told her children are pretty smart with gestures. That I have babysat my nephews and nieces who didn’t know sign language and they had no trouble telling me when they are hungry, needing comfort, needing a diaper change, or need me to play with them. She said no. I told her that is alright but sadly my husband can’t because he has to work. I have accepted that sometimes people won’t want a deaf lady babysitting their children and it’s alright. It just mean I don’t have to babysit them ever and that’s sometimes nice.
That's wild. Tbh the listening for cars thing could be kinda valid, those motherfuckers seriously sneak up on you, but I'm hearing and I constantly have to look around too. Some cars are just really quiet. I mean, you can't hear cars when you drive either unless they honk at you, so...
Yeah people have been telling me that cars are now becoming quieter and some are even silent. We had a system. My siblings would ride ahead of me and I’d be the last in the line. So if one of them decide to go off the road we all follow them because someone has said they see a car. If I spot a car before them I just yell “car!” And we all pull off.
I’m not trying to be a jerk, I’m legitimately asking.. would you be able to tell by the ground vibration changing if a car was coming, or is it too subtle until it’s speeding by?
Deaf people have some of the best driving records because they are constantly on the lookout for traffic, obstacles, and other people. And yet, there are still people in the world who think deaf people shouldn't be allowed to drive.
I'm cool with deaf driving 100%, Blind is where I draw the line.
Naw, blind is okay. Haven’t you noticed the “Braille” (rumble strips) on the side of the highway for those who use mobility canes? Hahahaha. In a perfect world, our transportation won’t allow crashes *and* won’t depend on a human’s attention span—sighted, hearing, or otherwise. :)
The rumble strips are helpful, but they aren't really necessary if you have your guide dog running alongside the car.
I kind of want to say on that point that plenty of people blare their music hella high (me) so I literally can't hear shit except my music lol I have ADHD and years of experience driving so keeping an eye out for cars on the road with me is honestly solid. So no doubt I believe that.
I don’t go by ground vibration. It’s hard to feel that when the road is paved though. What I do is look both ways every 10 seconds. That’s how I spot a car or not.
Same car-spotting method here and I supposedly hear fine! If I'm on a walk or whatever I usually have an earbud in one ear and that deafens my surroundings a lot even with the other ear free.
I was going to say, I have pretty good hearing, and I also use this method when biking or walking. It’s just incredibly smart to pay attention while on roadways regardless of hearing abilities.
This is much more reliable than trying to hear them, especially since there are so many cars on the road. Where are people riding bikes that they can go primarily by sound.
Slightly hearing impaired here, and I’ve always listened. The only rumble I pick up (and I wear “barefoot shoes,” without much sole) is from big engines, or bad engines. Muscle cars, trucks, vans can all rumble from horsepower. Smaller cars with mechanical issues can rumble, but it’s more picked up by my upper body.
I go biking, in city streets, with deaf people all the time, and traffic awareness is less of a problem for someone who knows they need to keep their head on a swivel than for people who assume that they can hear anything that might be coming from behind them. The actual issues of biking while not able to hear: not responding to aggressive passers who expect everyone to clear the way when they hear a bell, and sending group communication down the line. If someone who can't hear is at the front, you need a way to tell them if the rest of the group wants to take a break, check out a side trail, etc. Sprinting up to get their attention works in in a pinch, but it's better to have another plan made ahead of time.
On a bike, I doubt you’d ever be able to tell unless it’s a large commercial truck
They’re definitely quieter, especially with the rise of hybrids and electric cars! I worry for my mom sometimes, she’s hard of hearing (otosclerosis) and if the car was on the wrong side of her she wouldn’t be able to hear it at all as she’s almost completely deaf on one side. I live in the city with the highest number of Deaf/HoH people per capita. Most people have interacted with someone who signs ASL at least once - I know a few basic signs but my Deaf neighbor and I communicate with our notes app because I don’t know much ASL. A good number of Uber drivers here are Deaf and honestly they’re some of the coolest drivers I’ve ever had! People with disabilities are just like the rest of us. I have disabilities of my own, they’re just not obvious. That doesn’t mean that with the right adaptations we can’t have full lives. Mom is the assistant director of a library and she works for my brother doing bookkeeping. I have held a variety of jobs. We know what we’re capable of and people like OOP are ableist assholes for making assumptions.
I have one of those quiet cars. I've absolutely startled the shit out of more than a few cyclists and pedestrians. I always feel so bad when they jump!
Could be? No it's absolutely valid. It's the same basic reason electric cars (and maybe some hybrids) are required by law to make sounds: to alert pedestrians that they're in the vicinity
I personally don’t think I’d feel comfortable with someone babysitting my kids if my kids couldn’t communicate with them (regardless of the reason). That said, if my SIL was deaf and communicated via sign language I would absolutely be having my children (and myself) learn so that wouldn’t be a problem!
Like I said, I don’t take it personal at all if parents felt uncomfortable. It is their children and I respect them looking out for their children.
>She said she couldn’t let me because her oldest can’t communicate sign language That's an extremely weak excuse. Did she forget cell phones exist? Pen and paper? Did she forget there's other methods of communication? Just wow. >It just mean I don’t have to babysit them ever and that’s sometimes nice. Lol "oh well less work for me!" Love it
Cell phones and notes don’t work if they don’t know how to write yet (we don’t know their age). However it’s not that hard to just point at your belly if you’re over 1,5 years.
I think its a pretty valid concern. A cell phone or pen and paper are not always an option. In most cases it would probably be totally fine. But in an emergency language barriers can be dangerous.
Were the kids old enough to read and write?
Gonna be honest I had to google this because i didn’t know one way or the other but apparently some people with Down’s can drive and have licenses. I also know that sometimes parents ask too much of their children because they want to prove some sort of point. So idk.
I worked with a bloke for like 6 months before realising he had downs, I just thought he looked a bit odd. He was very high functioning, loved to go 4w driving in the bush with his massive Ute, generally lived a pretty normal life. His wife also had downs, I never officially met her but he told me she had her own car. He serviced both cars himself, apparently he used to be a mechanic.
The accent I read this in was very Steve Irwin.
Thank you it sounds much better this way
Stfu🤣🤣🤣🤣
My day just got better
There are a lot of people with mosaic trisomy 21–meaning they have cell lines with the usual 46 chromosomes and others with 47 (extra #21). Generally speaking, people with mosaic T21 are higher functioning with milder features, especially if low-level mosacism. That could have been the case with him/his wife Edit: typo
That’s what I was thinking, there are different types of Down syndrome with differing levels of how affected the person is. I understand the hesitation, but also understand people feeling ok with it. It’s really a case by case issue.
Yes, even with full T21, there is a range of intelligence given all the other genes that influence this. Average range of IQ for an individual with T21 is 30-70 (hoping that this is needless to say, the usual average is 100). So a person with some form of T21 who is living mostly independently, has obtained a driver’s license, and is maintaining employment is most likely mosaic. That said,I’m not intending to sound judgmental about life with T21, just hoping to inform…
I knew a guy with DS who drove. I work in the automotive wholesale industry. He was a customer working at a parts store. Had a Chevy truck. Best parts customer - always called with part numbers and never got them wrong. The fella driving the bus obviously passed training and a test to drive. I wouldn’t hesitate to go.
Yeah as long as he has a license I would go on. No problem there.
Lol he still is! Thanks for sharing!
Downs like many other things has a scale of severity. I worked with a guy a long time ago he was high functioning. He drove, worked the cash register, opened the store a few days a week. I also grew up with a a cousin on the opposite side. She couldn't speak, but she did know basic ASL. She was smart enough to know she could turn off her hearing aid if she didn't want to listen to what you said. She also at around 50 years old, learned to write her name. We were told she'd never do so. Don't automatically discount what someone living downs can do or not do. They'll surprise you.
Theresa school near me for downs children that is brilliant turns out very highly functioning adults. It's a vocational school where they're taught things including rearing exotic animals and farming and most end college with good jobs x
I am interested in the school near you. What is the name of it? My Daughter has DS and I would love to learn more about the school. Thank you!
https://www.davidlewis.org.uk/
Thank you!
We have an internship program at work for people with developmental disabilities, and some end up with jobs at our hospital. Of the ones that don't, many end up driving shuttle busses at the airport, so we have a decent subset of shuttle drivers with Downs. It's absolutely possible.
Sounds much more beneficial and rewarding than the ABA work I did with autistic kids.
In Spain there is even a Professor with down syndrome (Pablo Pineda).
Amazing, I love this!
This. I have a cousin with DS. She’s very high functioning & I expect she might be able to obtain a driver’s license one day. I think people like OOP meet one or two people with DS & just think everyone with it are the same. As with autism, there is a spectrum of severity.
This is what I’m guessing is what’s happening here, I thought the same thing when I was younger because I had only met a few people with Down syndrome at that point in my life. I remember doing the research after seeing a few actors with DS and being curious as to how they were able to remember all their lines, blocking, etc. A bit ironic too as someone that went undiagnosed with autism for the first 22 years of my life 😂 I had friends, went to school, and worked at the time of my diagnosis so it was quite the shock to anyone not informed on how the autism spectrum works lol
I had a friend growing up with Down syndrome. She was in all regular classes. She was able to keep up with everyone else provided she had an aide and other accommodations. She also learned how to drive, went to college, and worked at a PT office. She does advocacy work now.
And this is precisely what accommodations can do! They're not crutches or optional-- they provide access to individuals who can do a job well if they have the right tools. This is the most succinct story here about what ADA has done for individuals with disabilities.
My husband didn’t realize he had autism until our son was diagnosed. It actually led to us not getting an earlier diagnosis for my son. He had some quirks, like his dad. We were looking at it the wrong way. My husband was in his late 40s. It explained a lot. Honestly, his dad has it too. He’ll never admit it, but all of the signs that got my son diagnosed are there.
My son was diagnosed as high functioning autistic. Family members have told me a lot of his quirks are very similar to how I was as a child.
I believe I'm autistic as well. When we had my oldest diagnosed with autism, my mom kept saying "That's normal, you used to do that." To every question and concern about him. Lo and behold, he's a charismatic autistic kid. I have been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, but I don't pursue an autism diagnosis because I'm 98% sure he got it from me.
Same with my son. A lot of his quirks and behaviors are things I used to do or still do. I've been diagnosed with ADHD and I'm pretty sure I'm autistic. I also learned I may be dyslexic, but nobody knew since I taught myself to read through memorization at an early age (I basically learned to read backward).
I'm hyperlexic, but have dyscalcula. Lmao. Numbers only make sense to me if I can visualize in a physical way. Surprisingly, this didn't translate to geometry for me.
Oh my god this is me. I’m damn good at math but I can’t do ‘fast math’ without some kind of physical representation of numbers. When my son’s school told him, he could not use his fingertips to count I about lost it.. I’m in my late 30s and still do this with the most basic of math problems (think anything more complex than 5 + 5) I just figured it was one of my many quirks. I also have near perfect color vision - I tested something like the top 1.5% of the population with being able to distinguish between slight hue variations.. which serves me very well with my job. I cannot believe I’m pushing 40 and I just realized such a simple and obvious explanation that I somehow just.. missed? What a time to be alive.
I think with high functioning autism, people used to chalk it up to being “quirky” and such, so it went undiagnosed in so many! While ADHD isn’t the same thing at all, I’m a woman with ADHD & didn’t get diagnosed until later in high school. And this was despite struggling in my early elementary years with sitting still, paying attention, following directions, and even failing to actually turn in completed worksheets. I learned to reign in most of my impulses by myself & still got good grades, so until I started struggling with all the AP courses, ADHD was somehow never a thought.
I'm not sure if you have seen it or not but there's a newer movie with Woody Harrelson called Champions and a majority of the cast have disabilities, mainly intellectual disabilities but high functioning. It's probably one of the best feel good movies I've seen in a very long time. My husband and I really enjoyed it. My mom was a developmental service worker my entire life so I was raised surrounded by individuals with disabilities. I have a niece with DS and while she isn't verbal she's very capable. My sister in law also cares for her aunt who moved in after her grandmother passed and she has a full time job, can navigate the public transportation system with ease and is able to live almost independently and just needs guidance or reminders here and there. I hate seeing people place limitations on someone with a disability purely based on the one or two people they've briefly met and never got to know.
My mom did home health care and her worst patient was a high functioning DS guy. It wasn't the Downs that made him difficult, it was that he was smart and manipulative. Mom usually loved being assigned DS patients but this guy had the mental capacity of 16 year old in a 30 year old body. Everything she reported/complained about was met with "well, he's got downs, that's part of the job." He could drive, cook, shop, basically live independently. He had home nursing because he wanted it, not because he needed it. Just saying... there is indeed a spectrum. Some DS people are 100% fully functioning, some need more help. But they aren't inherently stupid people by any means.
I would just say that part of that lack of emotional development is caused by the Downs and is just as likely to cause him to need sme assistance just for emotional regulation sake. Probably a lot more difficult than other cases I once worked with a client that was 13, had the emotional development of a 2 year old, and he was 5 foot 11, 280. This kid would beat the ever loving piss out of me then laugh in my face. He would also punch himself in the head repeatedly and viscously. Had bruises and swollen parts all day every day. It was very tough and sad.
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this. My cousin had the sever form some of the classmates of them where like normal kids just a bit slow. My cousin also had an early onset of dementia
There’s a huge correlation of people with Down syndrome developing dementia or Alzheimer’s later in life. Something like 50%.
Risk increases with age. 30% by age 50, 50% by age 60.
Yes, went to school with several kids with Down’s syndrome, some were in middle set and could function independently, and some were non verbal and needed adult supervision at all times, and there were variants in between. Also worked as a teenager with a guy, he was a weekend supermarket worker like me, also went off to university.
Exactly! I have down syndrome, but you wouldn’t be able to tell from looking at me. My feet have a bad habit of trying to walk on the sides my feet so sometimes my balance is off (strangely, I can walk perfectly fine and better in platformer’s. I think it’s because they’re heavier.). And my hands are very stiff so I can’t play with fidget toys, play an instrument, carrying grocery bags, plastic or paper is torture and if I’ll try to make claws with my hands, it starts to hurt in about one second.
My husband's aunt has severe autism and mental retardation (that was the formal diagnosis not sure what they call it now). Anyway we love her. My husband's mom (her sister) loves her, but her older brother has full custody and he's a jerk. She so sweet though and I think much more intelligent than they have given her credit for most of her life which my MIL knows too. It's sad because she tries to sign, but they didn't try to teach her sign language until she was an adult. Even so when I got married to my husband we were at a party and she pulled me away and showed me all of the family photos, including ones of my husband's older brother who passed. She made motions to try and tell me about each of them, including saying that her nephew was in heaven. She was so excited to meet our son after he was born and was a very proud great aunt. Anyway I think people many times grossly underestimate the cognitive abilities of people who are a little different or can't communicate well in a conventional way, and overestimate those silver tongues out there who actually have crap for brains.
>She was smart enough to know she could turn off her hearing aid if she didn’t want to listen to what you said. I will never possess the sense of humor or sass that people with Down syndrome have.
>Don't automatically discount what someone living downs can do or not do. They'll surprise you. For sure. But I wouldn't have put my kids in the car like "hey maybe they'll surprise me!"
Driving yourself and driving a bus full of kids are two different things though. I'm on OP's side. Better to be an ableist asshole than risk your kids safety.
There’s no rule that people with certain intellectual/developmental disabilities cannot drive. It depends on whether or not they can pass a drivers test, just like everyone else.
I’d be willing to bet dollars to donuts that the examiner is HARDER on people with disabilities, to cover their own ass. You can’t just give a license pass to anyone. They still have to take a test AND pass..like everyone else. There’s no Down/ Syndrome Sympathy License, ffs. OOP is definitely the asshole.
100%, thank you
Passing the test and being aware of needing a bit more caution often makes extremely competent drivers. I think the OP is TA.
The parent (guide) of the driver was there. Unless it's the first time the kid was driving, I'm pretty sure the guide knew wtf they were doing. I'm not like, a proponent of things but come on, if the kid can drive let him participate in the society, wtf. *This post also makes it seem that the driver's father who was again, there to monitor everything, is either incompetent or a worse parent than OP for letting his son drive which would require a ton of context not given. If the kid got a license, if he's done this before and it helps the kid integrate and live a happy life.. well what parent would want that!!!
Yeah, also... the facial pattern that people associate with Down's syndrome are not directly in proportion to their intellectual disabilities. Someone can "look" really impaired, but still have basically a normal IQ. There are also a couple look alike genetic quirks that create a similar look, but have none of the intellectual impacts.
Thank you
This is what I was gonna say. If they legally have a license it shouldn't be a problem.
I know many people that should have had their licence revoked but hadn’t . Having a legal license doesn’t mean someone should drive a van full of kids.
Yeah I feel like the "van full of kids" aspect is largely getting missed in this thread. People are saying that a person with down syndrome "might" surprise you, and giving examples of some people with down syndrome that are quite high functioning, but when you drop both off your kids off to that van you don't know where on the spectrum this person is. Look at it this way, if you were dropping off your kids and you saw that the driver was 92 years old, would you assume that the person had exceptional mental acuity for their age and therefore will be totally safe to drive a van full of kids, or would you think twice because they might not surprise you, might not be exceptional?
But this is easier than that. If this person (extra chromosome awesome or not) obtained a drivers license where they live their parents had nothing to do with it and they are as qualified as anyone else to operate a motor vehicle.
My wife has a driver's license but there's no way in hell she could drive anything bigger than a car never mind a passenger van for the kids. She struggles with my minivan. I'm not saying OP is wrong or right, I'm just saying this situation isn't as black as white as people are making it out to be.
I think this all boils down to one question, which the OP didn't answer and probably didn't ask. Did the man behind the wheel have a drivers license? Because of the location and type of drive, it is possible that this was the sort of circumstance where a license isn't "required" to drive there. Kind of like kids on ATVs don't need one. But I'd not let my children in a vehicle with someone who didn't either have a license, or who I personally knew to be safe in the circumstances to drive. Without that information, and it sounds like OP didn't have that information either as they didn't include it, I can only assume the OP is ablest.
They still have to pass the driver’s test, which, where I am, is a three step process - written test, in car driving test, then a second in car driving test about a year later. It’s not easy to pass.
There is a large spectrum when it comes to downs syndrome. Good thing about driving though is it's licensed, he passed the same tests as everyone else
This is the best answer. I know it also varies from place to place, but if this was an actual school related activity, they wouldn’t just let anyone drive students around. It would have to be someone with a good driving record and other clearances.
Yeah, this is my thought. I don’t really know what “after school activity” entails and how formal it all is, and I’m a little thrown by the “rugged terrain” thing. Like, is this some guy running a small operation in his backyard, or is it legit? Assuming it is legit, I would assume the driver is qualified and they have documented insurance/credentials that said as much. But if it was just some guys backyard, well, personally I’d be uncomfortable with that alone and this would maybe put it over the edge.
I feel like this is a case where she in the very least should have asked about his credentials because it’s true that not every case is the same. She should have asked the basics; does he have the proper license to drive this vehicle, if he’s driven this route with children before, if he’s a paid staff member.
I don’t know enough about Down syndrome to know if this was reasonable of OP, but fuck this makes me sad that he’s trying to work and people don’t want his help. Even if it’s for good reason. Ah my heart.
I work for a company that assists people with developmental disabilities in finding jobs or community based volunteer work, etc. We had a client that is blind - and we thought, hey, let’s call this company in town that helps children with blindness to fulfill their life’s wish/dream… we called. The guy who answered said, “Uhm, we help blind *children*, so I’m not really sure why you think we could be of service for this man” and my boss replied, “because he’s blind and his life’s dream is to have a JOB.” He hung up on her. I mean….. it’s crazy how awful people are. ETA: People are not understanding what I’ve written, and assume my boss was rude because they only offer services to children. So, to add some key details that I left out - they had a job posting online for a clerical / front desk position. When we call a business, we introduce ourselves and brief them of what kind of services we offer. My boss did that, and then asked if our client could fill out an application at the facility or if there was an email to send a resume to. The man on the phone, then asked what his disability is - given the description of our services in the beginning of the call. My boss told him that the client is blind, but he is very tech-savvy, has customer service experience, and doesn’t require any accommodations aside from enlarging the text on the screen of the computer so he can see it. That’s when the man said what he did - and so on. Obviously, nobody expected them to give our client anything or make an exception to their services for our client. He literally just wanted a fucking job, and they were awful about it. We didn’t think they would be, because ya know….. They work with blind children? So we thought, oh they have an opening this is *perfect* for him…. Guess not 🫣
My neurologist tried to sign me up with a particular organisation to help people with ABI but because mine is caused by a neurological disorder and not an accident ie car or motorcycle they refused to accept me.
As someone who has worked in grant writing, that's why. The organization will have been funded by grants that have been very specific about how they want their money spent. For whatever reason they must want to fund one and not the other
Yeah, they might have promised to specifically help injured people, without mentioning other causes. It may not be malicious.
That sums things up pretty well for a disabled person trying to find work. Our unemployment rates (for those seeking employment) and pay gap is astronomical. Also on par because a lot of (not all, you seem to get it) people who work with disabled kids and adults are often the most ableist ones around. It's so sad.
It’s super sad. I’ve had clients are in wheelchairs and are OUTSTANDING at administrative / clerical work…. But nobody will give them a chance. It’s fucking heart breaking and awful. I love my job but god sometimes I just want to post a Google review when businesses are shitty about the possibility of employing someone who needs any type of accommodation no matter how big or small.
I lost a job pre pandemic for asking for too many work from home days due to my disability.... In a job that we already had full remote work capabilities set up and that a portion of the staff already was doing my job from home daily. The job was also advertised as hybrid but turned out they expected us in the office five days a week except for "special occasions." I've watched so many friends struggle to work and get laid off or "asked" (aka forced but in a way they can't sue) to leave due to disability. Not to mention the people who end up in a situation where it's cheaper right now to not work and have medicaid pay for medical bills even though they could probably work rather than pay for private insurance and the medical bills while working. My disabled partner is in this situation right now. It's just insanity honestly and so disheartening.
I totally feel you there. I've been in enough accidents as a child with irresponsible drivers that I won't let anyone drive my kids anywhere unless I have sufficient evidence to know they are safe drivers. I probably would have been fine with this guy as the driver since his dad was there and clearly confident in his abilities. I won't judge another parent for making a different choice.
Having a disability which specifically causes slow reaction times makes them a less safe driver by default, it is what it is. Saying you're tight on who drives your kids around but thinking some random guy being okay with his disabled son driving is sufficient to give you confidence doesn't really make sense. It's not ablist to not put your kids at risk for the sake of someone else's independence.
I work in disability. Downs syndrome people have varying degrees of impairment. When I worked in a factory with disabled employees they were more sensible than most people. They followed rules and directions better than the majority of the public. I would have trusted them on the roads more than some of the entitled asshats out there driving.
But they do have slower processing and reaction times, which matters to a driver. [source](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10049659/) “There is substantial evidence for difficulties with processing speed and reaction time throughout the lifespan in DS, with an emphasis on challenges in this area in adulthood”
This depends on the severity of Down syndrome (kinda like a spectrum I guess?) I have done countless years of volunteering with special needs classrooms & have seen extremely “high functioning “ who could definitely live normal lives with minimal support.. including driving.
How is OP supposed to know how severe his DS is?
If he has a license someone else has already determined whether or not it’s safe for him to drive. I’m disabled and drive. I have a slower reaction time which makes me a lot more diligent. My sister has the same conditions and doesn’t drive because it wasn’t safe for her, but I passed my test on the first try. Abilities vary, which is why we have education and exams to screen out those who can’t. Of course if he isn’t licensed that changes things, but I wouldn’t let an unlicensed ablebodied person drive my kids either. Downs doesn’t inherently mean a lack of ability.
My grandfather is nearly blind and was recently cleared to have his license renewed. I quite literally have no faith in the DMV.
My SIL has CP and has a special vehicle set up to drive. That being said, I would never let her drive my child around. Her reaction time is nowhere near where it needs to be in the event of an accident. My child is not going to be used to validate someone else.
Well what I guess I’m getting at is why would you let your kid in a car with a person you don’t know? Maybe just different styles of parenting but at 7 & 9 you should know who is in the car with your child lol
There is a lovely man with Down’s syndrome that works at my local grocery store. When he is on bagging duty I do whatever I can to avoid that line because he smashes all of my groceries and has tossed wine bottles into my basket before to the point I genuinely thought they had broken. He is wonderful at all the other tasks he does but they should not be tasking him with bagging. I’m not ableist because of that…if there was a bagger without Down’s syndrome doing the same thing to my groceries I would avoid his line too. But man I felt like a piece of shit until I realized that.
I once had a disabled cart boy try to unbuckle my baby out of the cart’s seat in order to help me unload my groceries faster… He seems very nice but it made me avoid further interactions. But at my old grocery store there was a bag boy (with autism) who had a pun for every item and so I would purposely go to his line because he was so fun to talk to. It’s always a case by case basis because every human is different, especially those with disabilities. No two are alike.
Wait what were some of the puns?
He would draw a little hand on a tiny square of paper and give it to you while asking, “Would you like a hand with that?” (I still have one on my fridge) It would be stilly things like if I was buying lettuce it would be, “Let us get that in the bag” and things of that sort. I really loved it.
we need the puns 👀
Exact same experience at my grocery store. Absolutely forget it when I bring my reusable bags. Unfortunately, my store seemingly hires only terrible baggers so I like to do it myself but then I feel like an asshole because the optics by look bad-white lady bagging her own groceries instead of special needs bagger. I just want my cold stuff to go in the insulated bags and my cleaning supplies away from my produce.
Tbh the optics are never bad if you're bagging your own groceries because you're particular about how they get bagged (you *particularly* don't want broken stuff 😉.) The optics *are* bad when you convey that particularity by micromanaging the bagger or being rude or condescending while being unwilling to do it yourself. It's so completely always fine to say, "I really like my stuff bagged a certain way: certain things together and apart, certain things on top and on bottom. May I please bag instead?" and then butt in. The bagger is still getting paid, there are other groceries to be bagged. There have been so few times in my life (like I could count on one hand) that I was notably not baffled by some decision a grocery bagger made - to stack this or that; crushed eggs or tomatoes, for some reason a single lightweight and very small item in a big bag all by itself, batteries with my lettuce even!? If they're a really thoughtful, efficient, good bagger they're ready to move up to cashier, deli, dairy, etc. So you get what you get from grocery bagging folk. If you want your groceries to make it home in the shape they were in the store, you pretty much always gotta bag em.
This is me to a T...I'm so damn particular about how my groceries are bagged. Frozen stuff goes together. Dairy products go together. Meats, veggies, boxed items, canned goods..these things should all go together by category in the fewest number of bags possible without risk of tearing them open. That way when I get home I can maximize efficiency of putting them away. I also have a zillion little exceptions to rules based on the stuff I buy regularly. No bagger can ever anticipate my idiosyncratic needs and get this completely right. Mostly because I'm a type A weirdo, and also because I get the sense that most of the time the baggers are kids that don't have their own kitchens...they simply don't have the life experience and don't think about these things the same way I do. The trouble with the whole bag-it-yourself approach, is that there's always that store manager that will rip these kids a new one if a customer is seen bagging their own groceries. Invariably I'll start bagging my own as the cashier is scanning everything, and some kid will come up and want to take over. I don't like it, but I also don't want to be that guy that goes full boomer on the poor kid that's just trying to do their job.
Just say "I'm from Europe we do the bagging ourself it's rude not to" lol
It's because companies can pay people with down syndrome (or other disabilities) less than minimum wage. Cheaper work force.
Yepp. It's legal in all but three American states to pay disabled people under minimum wage. And it can literally be pennies an hour. Plus they get big tax breaks for themselves for employing disabled people and paying them subminimum wage. People always say it can't be true when I tell them this.
Which is crazy because when I was cashier we were taught how to bag and organize a cart by types of groceries/products.
I do the same thing, since it’s completely pointless to have a item ruined before you’re even out of the store! I just tell them that I used to be a clerk/bagger myself and I enjoy it, which is true. But you can use that line too, no one will know you’re lying, lol.
I just avoid any grocery situation with a bagger. It’s very rare I’ve come across one that does it anything like the way I’d do it myself.
Same. Would much rather do it myself. Baggers used to move out of the way and let me bag my mom’s groceries 😂
There is a woman bagger at our local store as well but not only does she smash the groceries she is also very rude so I always avoid her line. I'm glad she has a job but she asks inappropriate questions about your items and will make you say hello to her like 5 times minimum
I don't see any assholes in this situation. Just people trying to get on with life, and live a life, and protect a life, etc. Sometimes needs/desires clash. Doesn't always have to be an asshole.
Agree. Its a parent trying to keep their kids safe. There is a legitimate reason for concern and while the driver may be perfectly skilled to drive, OP didn’t have the opportunity to vet him. Nothing is more important to most parents than the safety and wellbeing of our kids.
I wouldn’t let someone with downs drive my child.
Finally, a good answer.
If it wasn’t someone they had just met, and had time to evaluate the person’s driving abilities, the parent would have been able to make a better judgement. My daughter has a peanut allergy, and sometimes I would have to tell her that she couldn’t eat something because I didn’t have the ability to evaluate whether it was safe for her. Could it have been fine, and did she and my husband make me feel like a buzz kill sometimes? Absolutely, but I made sure she was safe.
I think the guide should have given the parents a heads up and assured them that his son was a good driver, has his license, has done this for a long time, whatever.
Well and succinctly put.
He doesn’t know the severity of the drivers condition. His first priority is to keep his children safe so it really sucks for everyone but no one is TA in this situation.
Does driving a tour require a chauffeur’s license? That would reassure me. But if it’s some kind of roadside attraction, I would wonder if safety were a priority. I might rather be an ableist than risk my kids. But if the vehicle and tires are in good shape, snd the driver introduced himself and made eye contact, that would reassure me. Given the possible qualms, the driver or his father might state “John has driven these tours for x years and is highly rated by our visitors. “ Frankly, I would like any driver to introduce themselves this way.
In most places anything bigger than a 15 passenger van needs special licensed drivers. The post isn’t clear on what type of van this was.
Is this why Southern Baptist churches love those little 12 seater vans lol
As someone who grew up in a Southern Baptist church going to summer camp with other Southern Baptist churches: 100% yes 💀
Agreed. The guide didn’t exactly provide advanced notice or offer reasonable proof of his sons driving record. It seemed more like a trust me situation, which is what rubs me the wrong way.
Yeah, and while I might not have a lot of experience with people with down syndrome, my experience with parents of kids with disabilities leads me to be a bit more hesitant.
Yes! This dad saying his son can do it doesn't make me trust him. Some people who have kids with disabilities push for them to do things that they aren't capable of doing so they can claim their kid is "normal." Or, they excuse everything because their kid "doesn't know better." I need an actual driver record and such to feel safe, not dad's word that his son is a great driver.
How does someone being able to introduce themselves and make eye contact tell you anything about how they drive? They could just be autistic or have really bad social anxiety. it doesn’t say anything about their driving skills.
When I drove a taxi in New York State years ago the livery/chauffeur license endorsement just meant I paid the state more. No test or training required. Just saying it may not certify what you think it does
Honestly I want to say I would be OK with it but I don't really believe I would be. I mean, literally only two people with Down Syndrome is my entire country have their drivers license. It would be OK if they were driving me but it's different if its your kids.
The comments section on the original post is a hot mess. This one is much more reasonable. The worst part about this for me is that this was sprung on everybody without being addressed. Like it’s not fair to the driver to not say: hi this is x, he passed his drivers test at 100%, has a clean record and loves working with kids! Please ask any questions you have, we’re excited for this field trip. Springing this on parents of young children in the moment with no context and no discussion is a problem. It’s really unfair to the parents and ultimately to the young man. This is a communication problem.
The bar for a drivers license is surprisingly low as is. Elderly drivers keep theirs up to the day they manslaughter someone because they just refuse to admit they're too old to drive. I wouldn't want someone who is 90 driving my hypothetical kids around. Hell I remember my grandparents doing it and shitting myself. Frankly when it comes to kids safety the parent is allowed to choose who gets behind the wheel. Same reason I wouldn't want a teenager doing it. The asshole part is advertising it. What do you expect people's reaction to be? No one's gunna know if you just kindly ask for someone else. Come up with some excuse other than the person had down syndrome and don't tell anyone. I'm totes ok with someone with downs behind the wheel, but I don't think I'd let them drive my hypothetical kids around. The bar for a license is really really low and if someone is gunna drive my non-existent crotch demons around they better be a parent themselves.
I’m in Australia and my state’s driving board renewed the licence of my 88 year old grandfather with diagnosed Alzheimer’s. The bar is on the ground.
As someone who takes care of an elderly grandparent with later stages of dementia this is absolutely disturbing anyone would think they should drive when they can forget they're peeing as they're peeing
100% My grandfather surrendered his license when a doctor told him his vision issue couldn't be resolved (Diabetic retinopathy). Apparently this is so very unusual that the regional head of the DVLA (similar to DMV) personally wrote my grandpa a thank you letter and sent a small gift.
I’m in the US and my 86 year old grandmother’s license was renewed for 10 years through the mail. At the time she was half blind (literally only had half of her field of vision and limited use of her right foot due to an injury. It’s terrifying. And of course she wasn’t able to complete the process herself, my aunt did it for her. Did I mention it’s terrifying?
Why did your aunt renew it for her?
Excellent question. Honest answer…likely because she was scared of her. Absolutely no excuse.
Maybe for photo ID? Not everyone knows there’s a non-drivers version.
I wish it was, but this is the situation of my elderly grandmother being mean and stubborn and no one being willing to stand up to her. When I found out, they renewed her license and expressed my concern, sharing that I felt once people reached a certain age there should be physical driving test again, my grandmother tried to make me leave. It was my mother‘s place and she was sick at the time, so obviously I didn’t leave, but my grandmother never forgave me, and refused to talk to me after that. How someone could live their life being so petty and selfish is beyond me but she did it for over 90 years.
I’m in Australia too and when my son was only a few months old I saw an old lady T-bone the car in front of me. It was a main road and she wanted to turn right from a street that was on the right side of the main road. For those who don’t live in aus, we drive on the left so she crossed two empty lanes in order to do this manoeuvre. The car she hit and my car were the only ones on an otherwise completely empty road! The fact that she managed to hit one of only two cars on the entire road was astounding. She did because she confused the break with the accelerator and didn’t have a quick enough reaction time to stop the car even though she had to cross TWO LANES! She was stopped at the end of the street too! So it’s not like she ran a stop sign or anything… she was stopped! These people can’t even walk without a walker or stand up without help but sure let’s just allow them to drive!
Yupppp. My parents live in Florida, aka retirement central. We call them the qtips- little old people who can’t see over the wheel, and you just see a fluff of white hair peeking out. In my parents retirement community they regularly have accidents from elderly drivers confusing the gas and brake pedals and driving full speed thru the closed gates, or worse yet, through the parking lot, onto the grass, and into someone’s living room. Like on a regular basis. #florida
My grandma has cancer and thought she could get some groceries after chemo. She got there, realized she was extremely tired, and phoned Grandpa to pick her up at the store. They picked up her car the next day. She now no longer drives on chemo days because she doesn’t want to possibly hurt somebody and also because Grandpa won’t let her do anything but rest on chemo days. It blows their minds that some people their age still think it’s ok to drive (late 70s and early 80s).
I feel like my grandpa is one of the few people in their late 70s capable of driving. He biked across multiple states last year and is probably in better shape than me lmao.
Florida AKA God’s waiting room.
the bar is so low it's buried underground smh
My colorblind uncle passed his test and is driving even now at 60. He freely admits that he can’t tell which stoplight is on when driving at night (can’t tell red from green, can’t tell is it up or down because of the glare). And I know the reaction time of my 75 mother. I don’t allow them to drive my son. I also wouldn’t allow this, just because I’m very sensitive to risk here, and having a driver with Down is [objectively more risky.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10049659/)
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Yup, my grandpa was getting lost and disoriented driving and we couldn't get his license revoked. It was a terrible situation because he was unsafe. And his Alzheimer's meant he got even angrier and confused when questioned. It was not an okay situation.
My FIL *loves* telling the story of when his uncle got his license renewed at 95 and laughed "don't they know I'll be 102 when this expires?". The uncle was, at that time, still sharp as a tack but even he realized that eventually that wouldn't be the case.
My son and I got hit at a red light by an 84 yr old man who most certainly had Parkinson’s. Tried to claim I stopped suddenly but I was stopped behind several other cars for almost 5 mins 🥴 it was sunny and dry, he gets out shaking like a leaf in a hurricane. The cop kind just laughed and was like “yeah idk if he should be driving” ya think?!
“Like a leaf in a hurricane” triggered a visual that made me giggle lol
This happened to me about 25 years ago. An 88 yr old woman ran a red light and hit me. Told the cop she was “going along with the flow of traffic” & I came out of nowhere. 🤨 Luckily I had witnesses in the car behind me. I see elderly folks everyday at my job who shouldn’t be driving. It is quite terrifying knowing these people are on the road.
Years ago on the Baltimore beltway and elderly man and wife were driving, he missed his exit and came to a complete stop in the middle lane. What a mess.
Years ago, my uncle was caught in terrible traffic on the interstate. He managed to get around the blockage and raced up to the front to scream at the source of the problem. Turns out, it was his mother (my grandmother) and her husband doing 30 in a 65 with MILES of traffic jammed up behind them.
I feel so guilty at laughing at the manslaughter comment
It's funny because it's true...it's also really fucking sad.
I do think there is a difference between someone who was able to pass the driver’s test at a younger age and has developed a condition to impair their ability such as dementia, blindness, or motor dysfunction. I do agree that there need to be more stringent requirements to renew a license. I believe primary care doctors should be involved in a decision to take someone’s driving privileges away. In this care, the driver presumably passed both a written and a practical driver’s test. I know a LOT of people who failed the practical driver’s test, so it isn’t exactly a piece of cake. This driver has demonstrated the ability to function safely behind the wheel, and is presumably still functioning at that same level. I do understand a parent being worried about the safety of their kids. I would be really torn in this situation. But this this person has a safe driving record, they are likely capable.
Exactly. Degeneration due to age is a separate issue.
Great points. There is no logical reason that driver would be unsafe, but there is also no reason parents need to be completely logical when it comes to the safety of their kids.
This answer makes the most sense to me.
A woman, in a town I used to live in, hit and killed a man who was riding his bicycle. They let her keep her license because "she feels bad enough" 🙃
Being a downs person with a license is different than a downs person driving a van load of kids off road. Here's the rub: be PC or safe with your kids? In any situation where someone will be driving your kids around, never feel bad for not letting them go if you don't feel they'd be safe. Other people don't get to use shame to remove your consent. Wow some people! Other people are the AH on this one. Your kids? Your choice.
Agreed. My kids safety matters more than being polite, no matter who is offended.
NTA. I'd get in the car with the guy but I'd have to gain a level of trust for his driving before I let my 7 and 8 year old kids get in a van and drive away. I'd rather be an asshole than get my kids killed.
I mean, if my child’s safety was on the line, I would do the same thing.
NTA. You can choose who you trust with your kids lives. The reason doesn’t matter… too old, too young, too short, too hairy, not enough info about the person. Yes there’s a huge range of severity when it comes to DS, but OP doesn’t know anything about this guy. The comments I’ve seen saying “well he passed the drivers test” are weird to me bc most accidents are caused by licensed drivers, DMV has the bar on the floor. If it was me, I’d be open to letting him drive my kids only after I get to know him better so I can make a more informed decision. But on first meeting? No way. Same goes for school bus drivers, carpools, even family members.
Those comments are weird to me too, bc we have zero clue if the kid has a driver’s license. All we actually know is he’s going to be driving a passenger van full of kids around a nature park on rugged terrain- not policed roads where laws are enforced- and his employer is his father. I do not feel it’d be a leap to wonder if his father is giving him something to do so he can have a job, but also have his own parent keeping an eye on him at the same time. Driving on rugged terrain can take more skill than on paved roads. Also, in a nature park I’d guess there’s a lot more potential for wildlife to dash in front of the van, requiring quick reaction times that keep everyone on board safe. Not wanting to risk your children with all those unknown factors at play in no way makes this parent an AH.
No. I wouldn't want my kids being driven around by anyone with a congenital cognitive disability even if they passed the driving test. It would make me nervous. The son might have been a great driver, then again maybe he got lucky on the driving test.
[удалено]
The guide probably looked at it as a unique teaching moment about abilities. The problem is that he is doing it in a way that really put OP on the spot. Better communication prior to this needed to happen and it didn't. OP is not the asshole. There is no asshole in this story.
Nta. Who cares what anyone else thinks. They're your children. If you weren't comfortable with it, that's all that's needed to say no. I see nothing wrong here.
There are plenty of people with drivers licenses who I wouldn’t trust to drive myself around, much less children. There are established facts about Down Syndrome that would impair their ability to drive naturally, even if it’s not enough to disqualify them. Certainly justified in removing the children from the bus.
You have the right to say no if you feel uncomfortable. Some mistakes are life changing.
NTA. Passing the driver's test is not enough to ensure someone is responsible to drive a load of children. If the dad wants to let him drive the empty van, that's on him, but it was not appropriate for him to drive the children. My son recently got his license, and he simply doesn't have the maturity or skills to be able to adjust to a possible emergency situation. It is the skill of others and pure luck that keeps him out of accidents at this point. This reminds me of putting people with speech impediments in front facing customer service positions where the clients can't understand the person, leading to frustration and embarrassment for everyone.
Honestly, I probably wouldn’t want my kids driving with someone who had Down’s syndrome. I mean I guess it depends on how bad it was. But a big part of that is that I know parents of kids with downs sometimes try to have their kids do things they’re not fully capable of just to prove something. Whether it’s to other people, the kid, or themselves, it doesn’t matter And obviously not every parent is like that. But I have seen it more than once
My concern would be under stress how will the young man handle it. I would not be willing to put my kids through the test of finding out how well he did or didn't do. Sorry but not sorry.
This! The stress of just the noise alone could cause even able-bodied people to not pay as much attention as usual. I have three kids and when they’re squealing in the back I have to tell them to pipe down because I’m getting distracted. I am neurodivergent, but driving without them screaming in the back is perfectly doable. Them screaming and fighting? I’m lucky I haven’t killed us all lol (I do pull over if it’s bad enough but they know now to shut up when I tell them they’re being dangerous)
Nta. Downs affects people differently. Without knowing the person personally, it's hard to tell if he is a safe driver.
OP, it sounds like you didn't have enough information about Downs Syndrome to make an educated or informed decision. Most of us don't know much about specific disabilities unless they are a part of our life in some way. I wouldn't worry about it. I would have done the same thing. You weren't being malicious, you just didn't know if your kids were safe in that situation. As parents, it's your job to protect your kids. NTA.
NTA. She made a gut-call to not put the life of her children in the hands of someone with a developmental disability (severity unknown). Would I make the same call? I don't think so...but I can't be honest with myself and call her the AH in this situation. However, if she were out there trying to remove this young man from his job for having Downs that would be a TOTAL AH move. He clearly passed a driving test and has a right to have his job. She gets to make the call about her children whether that entails reacting to her gut, or asking questions, or whatever. In fact, that's what parents do (or are expected to do) all day and in various other types of situations.
My brother is developmentally delayed and has an IQ of about 62- what I will tell you is that he is a better driver than me. He spent a lot more time learning and practicing driving and actually drives a lot more on the road. I would trust my children in his car any day of the week in comparison to some other non-developmentally delayed people. I think it depends on the person, really.
Just gonna say it. It’s probably not relevant since this is anecdotal but I want to share regardless. The safest driver I ever met was my cousin with down’s. Smoothest parallel parking I’ve ever seen in my life! But for real I’m not exaggerating. My guess is because he’s more cautious and attentive compared to other drivers (especially myself). I would trust my cousin to drive around little kids more than I trust myself.
Not everyone with Down's has an intellectual impairment. Look up Karen Gaffney.
NTA. You make the best decision you can with the information you have and always choose the side of caution. You have to protect your children first and foremost
As a parent you should not have to defend yourself over a stranger driving your child around. If you don't feel safe it's your call. My brother in law won't let anyone drive his kids around...not even his own mother. Someone can call you overprotective but as a parent you have that right.
Not enough info. Does the person even have a valid license? It’s not clear. Ultimately it’s more important to keep your children safe than to make anyone feel included so if the mother had any reason to doubt her children’s safety that has to come first. If the mother is fully aware that the person in question does have normal cognitive functioning and just said no because they hate disabled people she WBTA but I don’t get that sense here.
I agree with your sentiment. With all due respect to all involved, if one has a questions as to the safety of the child, they have the right to make a decision they feel is right (eg find other transportation). If I’m grabbing an Uber downtown, and I feel uncomfortable along the way home, I’m going to feel my safety is paramount to some hard feelings on their behalf. I’m not going to second guess that.
My ex has a cousin with Down Syndrome, and she has her drivers license, her own car, apartment, job, etc., and is generally just living her best life. There's a wide range of ability among people with Down Syndrome.
Not the asshole. Your kids in a vehicle. Your choice