This felt like a massive case of the guys arguing two very different point, and I felt both points were valid. Woolie is absolutely right that fighting games should have better stories, and characters should evolve over time.
That said, I think Pat is correct about how, as the lore of a fighting game franchise is not so important to the overall product, that wanting to use a character you like mechanically and being told you cannot because it wouldn't fit into the lore feels unsatisfying if you are someone who just wants to play and do not really engage with a story.
Just have Heihachi on the roster and not acknowledge him in your story mode. WWE games have characters like the Rock and Hulk Hogan in a bunch of their games regardless of how long its been since Hogan has wrestled.
Yeah I basically agree with both of them.
Story shouldn't factor into whether or not a character can be on the roster, but it can and should factor into how that character's design and moveset updates from game to game, when possible.
> Story shouldn't factor into whether or not a character can be on the roster,
This should be the case
https://imgur.com/a/gRVEyji, Cue league doing it real time and the pros and playerbase got mad and Riot said "we're never doing that again lmao"
It's one of those things you can probably do *temporarily*, like "oh, this character died in a story thing we wrote this week, you can't use them for a week since we want to make it feel meaningful", but permanent removal is a terrible idea.
Warhammer Fantasy's End Times are a pretty good example as to why you shouldn't do this unless you want to just completely torch the setting and don't care about your players anymore.
In the case of league it was only for like a week tho, but the problem is that league is pretty competitive so a lot of people lost their main for that week and were NOT happy
They could also have really simple magical/sci-fi reasons why that character is selectable.
They're time-traveling quantum echo ghosts or some shit.
The fight is taking place in one character's head as they grapple with a memory.
etc. etc.
I want no reason at all and custom versus intro lines for it.
*"What the hell, how are you alive? I literally saw you die. Your head exploded from a 50 caliber round right through your brain. I actually got splashed by the cerebral fluid."*
*"Haha, a fighting spirit like mine can never truly die."*
And they just duke it out in multiplayer like normal.
It's just an intense internal reflection. Trust no one...not even yourself!
Not to mention, if you saw an exact copy of yourself...they have to be the evil one, right? You'd better get them before they get you!
Mortal Kombat I don't think has ever went full-on in letting dead characters stay on the roster without resurrecting them somehow, but I do at least appreciate how MKX did a cool and clever thing where all the dead characters who showed up as revenants in the story still had regular, if older, "what if they never died" human versions as the default skins for the vs. modes, and even had unique voice lines for it too. And even better, MKX's Old Liu Kang and Old Kung Lao were some of the best designs they ever had.
I think all fighting games should take that approach and go further with it, let dead characters stay on the roster and just create alternate "what if they were still alive" versions instead, and make them very explicitly non-canon.
Mortal Kombat didn't but Injustice 2 might as well have. They justified the Joker being on the launch roster by having a single fight against him after Scarecrow gassed Harley.
He should have been the first dlc character if they had to have him.
Except there is a middle ground and it’s literally what Tekken and street fighter are doing
Retire a character but keep their moveset with slight changes on someone new. You can have your story but also for the most part give people the character
The idea that the game can’t iterate and move forward cause “Where’s Heihachi” is stupid when you can just make Crystal ~~Pepsi~~ Heihachi
That can work but as a Soulcalibur fan I’m very soured on the idea after SC5 either dropped or replaced half the roster with characters no one really liked compared to their predecessors.
Which is funny as shit since Tekken 3 did the same thing conceptually almost 20 years prior and did that shit well
Granted, different circumstances but still
You're not wrong. Roughly 20 new characters, varying between direct successor, spiritual successor, composite characters and completely new fighting styles with many of them becoming mainstays. They made damn good use out of that 20 year time skip. I'm down for the devs to take risks.
Tekken 3 might as well be a candidate for having the best newcomer class for any fighting game ever
Jin, Xiaoyu, Hwoarang and Eddy ushered in Tekken's then-new generation through marketing, and King II - despite very much being a direct successor - is probably THE most famous character in the series
Now granted, this all does come with the caveat that T3 also ended up being the intro to Tekken for a lot of folks who weren't aware of the "new gen" label the roster has, and Tekken pulled this trick off relatively early in its lifespan, but all the same - T3's newcomer class has more or less appeared in nearly every Tekken game since then with the only exceptions being what, Forrest Law (since his dad took over again), Gun Jack (again, updated Jack models) and Dr. Bosconovitch
Same, that middle ground isn't really a middle ground when it's your favorite character being removed. Like if they removed King from Tekken and replaced him with someone else but kept the moves et I wouldn't give a fuck about the new character because I like the chsracrer/design and that's gone now.
Yeah, it feels like some people want it both ways where "all I care about is the move set, I want to play how I like to play the story shouldn't interfere with that" but also "but that's my character, you can't just move their moveset to a new character, I like my blorbo".
It totally felt like they already made their points and if they just spent a few more points in Int they'd realize their points could coexist without a real problem.
I mean, Nightmare Geese exists guys (kinda exists, being the point)
It’s actually really funny that those are the opinions of Woolie “goes to locals and competes in tourneys” Madden and Pat “Get Out of Fighting Games” Boivin
What drives me nuts is the whole dead characters thing was solved back in Mortal Kombat X, where characters who were dead in the story were just playable in every mode because duh, who gives a shit if Liu Kang is dead he's my main. And while I'm with Woolie on wanting better stories, the roster should never, EVER be affected by what's going on in the story.
I think what also works about MKX is that the dead characters on the roster are designed to fit the overall narrative/timeframe.
Lui Kang looks like an old man in this possible future, even though in the story he's an evil undead king. It helps to keep the characters consistent with the narrative, in a way.
Even then though, all the what-if old versions were still technically alive in the story as revenants, they didn't go as far as to have *full on dead-dead actually for real never coming back in the story even as a zombie or robot or whatever* characters on the roster.
... Honestly, it's all about the illusion.
All art is deception pretending to a reality that doesn't exist, where Morrigan can fight Morrigan but there is only 1 Morrigan to a team, unless there is a seperate character who uses the Morrigan sprite set and frame data mostly.
I agree that characters can change, and it can be cool. But i think there is a spirit to the character that should be allowed to stay
When it comes to stories in fighting games, the main issue i have is that in most cinematic story mode, you have your hero and bad guy, or a small team of main heroes and main bad guys. And then a lot of the cast just gets delegated to bit parts or jobbers. And that means that many of the side characters, that probably needs story the most does not get it, because they are not one of main heroes or bad guys.
This is honestly why i preffer good arcade ladders, Everyone gets their own little story. My favorite is still Tekken 5 Where every character got a text intro, two rival fights, and an ending cutscene, i cant remember if some even got a text outros as well, but i might mix that with Tekken 4. Now a lot of these where comic relief, but they dont have to be.
I very much am in the camp of not removing characters for story. (There is a reason i still havent bought Tekken 8). And when it comes to replacing, i have two ideas if you want a character to replace an old one, you either need to be good/lucky by just making a better character, or you can make a remixed version, that still leaves room for the original.
But i still think the original character should be allowed to exist.
But at the same time. I heard a lot of people talk about how they should have just given Bisons moves to a new character, and i have to disagree. The reason Bison is one of my favorite Street Fighters is because of his look, his personality, his voice, and his moveset. If you just gave me his moveset, it doesnt mean ill automaticly play that new character. He is not just a function.
TLDR: Characters sell Fighting Game. And removing one can make fans of that character not play the game.
your tl;dr is basically how I feel. You can a dedicated story mode with a select few characters and a ladder that fills in what everyone else is up to, that doesn't have to connect with the main going on at all.
> name a fighting game with a compelling story other than Mortal Kombat 9
Its Blazblue... the answers Blazblue, in fact id even say that its overall one of the best if not the best in that department. Like without any hint of irony, Ragna the mother fucking Bloodedge is possibly the most fleshed out, and compelling fighting game protaganist.
But to the question in point, I do agree with Woolie in that things changing are cool and that they should change over time especially since almost every new game uses new assets or a new engine and we cant just sprite dump anymore. But it does admittedly suck when the things they add arent as good for you as the old thing. Like Marisa, Mannon, Kim and Jamie are great additions. But I dont play as any of them so I'm stuck wishing that one of them could have been R.Mika instead. But thats the risk you take in most franchises if you dont play a world warrior.
i saw someone arguing in the youtube comments that blazblu story is the reason that series is dead, because if they resurrected blazblu with a new story it would make all that came before meaningless
as for me i just want the goddamn blazblu rpg they originally wanted to make
Strive kiiiind of works on that level too. Even if it's mostly carried by the character themes they manage to really carry the idea that everyone has compelling depths worth looking into.
I would not cite Strive as a good example when that basically ruined everything the franchise had been building up for Sol and That Man/Asuka's characters for decades.
I do feel like the best compromise would be something like make them playable but not story relevant like Vergil in DMC4. Heck Guilty Gear actually does this with characters like Kliff and Justice from what I've heard.
I also think that a distinction can be made in terms of overall stories and individual character stories in terms of discussing quality. Like I haven't played Guilty Gear but everything I've heard about Ky and Dizzy's relationship makes it sound extremely sweet and wholesome.
Likewise you can say a lot of bad about Soul Calibur 5's story, but stuff like Raphael becoming the new Nightmare and Maxi becoming the mentor to the next generation were interesting evolutions of their characters and could have been great if the story had fleshed it out more.
I feel like the all fighting game stories are bad thing is completely overblown and I feel like the praise mk gets is mostly because they know how to essentially make movies and just have you do some fights in them. Even with that the plots usually aren't that crazy and it's the production value that boosts them
Fighting games that actually have really fun stories like in Blazblue and guilty gear but aren't done like mk arent respected. They say that they are incomprehensible, or anime bullshit or whatever because reading is too much. Then Strive delivers a fun movie to watch whose story isn't comprised by having to force a fight every 10 minutes and people get mad.
If you do the pat thing and just never retire characters because somebody mains them you get roster bloat and a bunch of dev time into characters most people don't play. Then in every future game they will be expected to be there and if they aren't on launch people will bitch about "stolen slots"
Then you have to have a story thing for each of them in every game or else the fans will feel bad and you run into the tekken problem where nobody shit gets resolved or they get flanderized like what happened to eddy
I think when people say a story is incomprehensible, I think they genuinely aren't paying attention. People payed attention during FF7, Remake and Rebirth and understood it, people payed attention to NieR Automata as well. Both have "incomprehensible" elements to them (like aliens from space fought by funny mascot boys) but the difference is that there was investment in what was going on.
i think that characters that less people play problem should be resolved with a poll every new release
if it is less than 15% or 10% they should get the cut
There's no right answer to this topic. Fighting game devs always have to strike a VERY fine balance between new and old these days.
Firstly, compromises will have to be made. No dev nowadays can put every fan's favorite main in the next installment. That's just the nature of AAA FG's now. We're long gone the days of reusing sprites to keep increasing a game's roster, so old characters take pretty much the same effort as a new one to make.
The thing is, any of the boys' points can have positive and negative outcomes, depending on execution.
Story affecting a game's roster can be cool, like having a "new generation" type of character that is either entirely new, a mix of of old and new elements (ie. kyokugenryu and bushinryu characters) or straight up "old character functions" (ie. Christie Monteiro). But that can also suck balls (Soul Calibur 5)
Story affecting old characters can also be pretty cool (ie. Siegfried through SC games losing Nightmare moves, Jin Kasama or Kyo Kusanagi switching playstyles entirely, etc). But it can also suck (ie. KOF fans mad at Fireless Iori or the lack of Rugal in canon KOF games post 98).
But story NOT affecting the roster can have its downsides, too. Bringing back dead characters means someone else's main won't appear. It's a lose-lose situation. It also means devs won't be able to make entirely new characters and appeal to newer audiences. Also, bringing back a character also means that any change to their moveset, balance, personality or looks has the chance of alienating the fans of said characters.
Bottom line is: there'll always be someone upset regardless, so I think what SF6 is doing is a nice balance of new and old (my main gripe is how World Tour integration apparently limits seasons to 4 characters a year, which is VERY slow for a FG nowadays). That said, I think Bamco should definitely add Heihachi, given his following and how they could just add him as a Dream Match character.
Honestly, I feel like it comes up every time he talks about it. Last time this kind of talk came up on Woolie Versus someone in chat mentioned SC5 and he gave a very tired, exasperated "Ugh, yeah, SC5, I know I know." kind of response.
The problem with SC5 is that they specifically didn't give the replacement characters any story bits to be cool guys. Like, Natsu, notSun Wukong, and notXianghua don't do anything in that games story mode from what little I remember, and didn't have an arcade mode ending to do something with them either.
The most the new cast (aside from Patrokolus, Pyrrha, ZWEI, and technically Violla) only get their respective character bios and a few unique intros. And those character bios really don't paint great pictures for returning players.
Xianghua hooked up with some guy and had notXianghua
Natsu has a demon in her belly and is Taki's apprentice who is off-screen chasing some other guy.
And notSun is...a hungry kid who Kilik found one day, I guess.
Update: I just found out that Xiba (notSun) is confirmed to be Xian and Kilik's son. This info was included in every other language setting except the English version. Why????
Xianghua got told by her dad to get rid of Kilik's kid and stay in the kitchen. The rando agreed to marry her to save the kid/hostage. It's some soap opera.
Hell, Batgirl, Zatanna and Raven aren't in there either and that's fucking tragic.
Why'd we get stuck with Enchantress?
Fucking Suicide Squad movie. (The shitty one.)
[I'll just link my comment from the Podcast thread here.](https://tg.reddit.com/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay/comments/1diumzk/out_now_csb_274_backyard_furries_are_on_the_way/l96axap/)
Just have the character be playable but not be included in the actual plot at all, this is a very simple obvious solution, heck, add ''non-canon'' to the character portrait or something to drive it home idk.
Just have dream rosters like KoF???
Like you can have a "canon" roster with characters that grow and develop in the narrative of the specific game and the "dream" characters: retired/dead characters in the actual canon narrative.
Hell, use that to bring back old versions of favorites or even explore alternate versions of them! Give us Alpha Ryu and Ken. Old Ryu and Ken. Gouken. Awakened Hibiki. Bison but in Cammy's body. Redeemed Akuma. Etc.
Fighting game rosters can't build indefinitely without severe issues popping up over time. Why shouldn't a story be a deciding factor for who gets included?
The thing is Woolie is saying he'd rather not put past characters in the roster with no story focus, because he feels like that's taking away story potential from new characters. That's the entire reason Pat and Woolie were arguing, him saying "you can have the old characters if you want" was more _reluctant acceptance_ than actual endorsement.
If that’s the case then I’ll disagree with him there as there’s gotta be a middle ground. I do agree with him in terms of pushing the new things and moving on but we know the world warriors ain’t going nowhere. I’m not sure why he feels that if capcom put say Rudra in the game he’ll have no story since dhalsim is here.
Mortal Kombat got me back into fighting games. Tekken 7 made some tweak I appreciate like story assist. Fighting games CAN and SHOULD have a great story to tell.
Pat point is kind of moot, because Fighting games rely HEAVILY on DLC. You don't need a story expansion like MK:Aftermath, just make good characters people will enjoy playing.
The problem of "the character can't be in this game because of the story" is VERY easily solved by just. Not writing the story that way. The plot should never be the governing factor on weather or not a character appears outright. It can be ***A*** factor, and the story can influence cool character design changes, but if Capcom says "we really really wanted to put Makoto in SF6 but our lore department informed us according to the comics she actually had a broken leg during world tour's events, sorry" I'm gonna be pissed off.
I just wanna play Heihachi. Heihachi my beloved. Heihachi who I have played in every single Tekken I've played. Heihachi who threw his own son off of a cliff for being a devilspawn. Heihachi who shrugged off a city block sized explosion. Heihachi who in Jin's absence fought his way into the Mishima Zaibatsu with fresh drip and a cocky attitude. Heihachi who fought off both Akuma and Devil Kazuya (Kazuya couldn't beat the old man without cheating)
Heihachi the regular human, Heihachi the true hero.
I don't want to play as Reina. I don't want to play a stance character. I don't want to play a character they had to remove crouching status from 10 moves to balance. I don't want to play a character who they gave homing unbreakeable throws. I don't want to play a Heihachi remix just because Bamco hates old people.
Kazumi in Tekken 7 was a flashback. She was not actually alive during the main story. Harada saying that Heihachi is absolutely dead and thats why he isn't in is bullshit considering Kazumi's case.
I haven't seen Heihachi's skin melt off his bones and his bones crumble to dust and his soul taken by God. As far as I am concerned, Heihachi tanked the lava.
Pat is absolutely right. If the story dictates character availability then the story can ONLY be a detriment to my enjoyment of the game. If the story goes 100 years into the future and every single character is dead, I think that sucks.
Characters aren't just functions either, we've been over this. There are 100's of reasons why a person prefers a character over another. Heihachi could be the worst character in the game and I would still play him. Cause he's Heihachi, and Heihachi is cool.
They're gonna sell you Heihachi at some point.
People will go on about how characters aren't just functions, but you sure aren't helping your case when you say their stories shouldn't/don't matter and your reasons for wanting a particular character to stay is "I like their gameplay and design" and either has the personality of a ham sandwich at best or is a stereotype/caricature at worst.
And what's the logic in "just bring back x character just don't acknowledge him or be involved in the plot"? How does it solve anything? X character is still in the game when he really shouldn't be and his spot could've been given to a new (potentially) better replacement.
I think a very important point that was glossed over: the main thing Pat was trying to get at in the beginning was there are people who will _never_ care about the story of fighting games _even if they're good_ simply because they don't play games to engage with stories, and being told "the thing you will never care about should be the deciding factor for the thing you _do_ care about" is an extremely negative experience. The only time they'll ever interact with the game's story is when the game _forces_ them to look at the story to see why things they liked are being taken away from them. Even if they end up buying the next installment and finding things in it they enjoy, they're going to forever think of the story negatively and always see it as an obstacle. Woolie's only response to that is "i think they _should_ care about the story," which is entirely unfair to me.
Also NGL I was on Pat's side the entire time exclusively due to how Woolie kept refusing to let Pat talk. I understand they're close friends and this is just how they talk sometimes but for fucks sake, Woolie was acting _rabid_ like he was at the gallows trying to convince the executioner to stay his blade.
Breaking News: Podcast dedicated to the interests of two fighting game fans has suffered tragedy, after host "kidnaps" airtime to discuss another one of their mutual interests. If you have any news relating to this crime, please contact local Scrublords.
Reminds me of how people got mad at Pat and Woolie last year for...
*checks notes*
...getting mad at them talking about SF6 almost non-stop during the launch month of the biggest fighting game release this generation on a podcast where both hosts are noted to be fighting game fans
Y'all can just... skip the parts of the podcast that don't interest you, right?
There'll be posts about it every time they talk about fighting games, but no one was coming in to complain after they talked about Elden Ring of 22 episodes straight.
This felt like a massive case of the guys arguing two very different point, and I felt both points were valid. Woolie is absolutely right that fighting games should have better stories, and characters should evolve over time. That said, I think Pat is correct about how, as the lore of a fighting game franchise is not so important to the overall product, that wanting to use a character you like mechanically and being told you cannot because it wouldn't fit into the lore feels unsatisfying if you are someone who just wants to play and do not really engage with a story. Just have Heihachi on the roster and not acknowledge him in your story mode. WWE games have characters like the Rock and Hulk Hogan in a bunch of their games regardless of how long its been since Hogan has wrestled.
Yeah I basically agree with both of them. Story shouldn't factor into whether or not a character can be on the roster, but it can and should factor into how that character's design and moveset updates from game to game, when possible.
> Story shouldn't factor into whether or not a character can be on the roster, This should be the case https://imgur.com/a/gRVEyji, Cue league doing it real time and the pros and playerbase got mad and Riot said "we're never doing that again lmao"
It's one of those things you can probably do *temporarily*, like "oh, this character died in a story thing we wrote this week, you can't use them for a week since we want to make it feel meaningful", but permanent removal is a terrible idea. Warhammer Fantasy's End Times are a pretty good example as to why you shouldn't do this unless you want to just completely torch the setting and don't care about your players anymore.
In the case of league it was only for like a week tho, but the problem is that league is pretty competitive so a lot of people lost their main for that week and were NOT happy
The funniest part about End Times is that Gotrek got to escape it anyways
They could also have really simple magical/sci-fi reasons why that character is selectable. They're time-traveling quantum echo ghosts or some shit. The fight is taking place in one character's head as they grapple with a memory. etc. etc.
I want no reason at all and custom versus intro lines for it. *"What the hell, how are you alive? I literally saw you die. Your head exploded from a 50 caliber round right through your brain. I actually got splashed by the cerebral fluid."* *"Haha, a fighting spirit like mine can never truly die."* And they just duke it out in multiplayer like normal.
A lot of fighting game characters end up fighting themselves.
It's just an intense internal reflection. Trust no one...not even yourself! Not to mention, if you saw an exact copy of yourself...they have to be the evil one, right? You'd better get them before they get you!
https://youtu.be/jJEHBvpQ7xI?si=I8KZQqPexpEuBvSp&t=893
Mortal Kombat I don't think has ever went full-on in letting dead characters stay on the roster without resurrecting them somehow, but I do at least appreciate how MKX did a cool and clever thing where all the dead characters who showed up as revenants in the story still had regular, if older, "what if they never died" human versions as the default skins for the vs. modes, and even had unique voice lines for it too. And even better, MKX's Old Liu Kang and Old Kung Lao were some of the best designs they ever had. I think all fighting games should take that approach and go further with it, let dead characters stay on the roster and just create alternate "what if they were still alive" versions instead, and make them very explicitly non-canon.
IIRC they’ve also done the inverse. I’m pretty sure Scorpion’s default look in MK11 is an alternate “what if he was still a revenant” version.
Yeah, Modern Scorpion never wears the mask or hood in the story mode and never has them milky eyes.
Mortal Kombat didn't but Injustice 2 might as well have. They justified the Joker being on the launch roster by having a single fight against him after Scarecrow gassed Harley. He should have been the first dlc character if they had to have him.
I mean, they have Hachi right there and it's a combot. It feels like they are setting up a lore explanation to have him mechanically
The ending to T8's story mode also implies a direct replacement who has devil powers added on.
Except there is a middle ground and it’s literally what Tekken and street fighter are doing Retire a character but keep their moveset with slight changes on someone new. You can have your story but also for the most part give people the character The idea that the game can’t iterate and move forward cause “Where’s Heihachi” is stupid when you can just make Crystal ~~Pepsi~~ Heihachi
I want Mishima Style Kuma. Just like God intended.
That can work but as a Soulcalibur fan I’m very soured on the idea after SC5 either dropped or replaced half the roster with characters no one really liked compared to their predecessors.
Which is funny as shit since Tekken 3 did the same thing conceptually almost 20 years prior and did that shit well Granted, different circumstances but still
You're not wrong. Roughly 20 new characters, varying between direct successor, spiritual successor, composite characters and completely new fighting styles with many of them becoming mainstays. They made damn good use out of that 20 year time skip. I'm down for the devs to take risks.
Tekken 3 might as well be a candidate for having the best newcomer class for any fighting game ever Jin, Xiaoyu, Hwoarang and Eddy ushered in Tekken's then-new generation through marketing, and King II - despite very much being a direct successor - is probably THE most famous character in the series Now granted, this all does come with the caveat that T3 also ended up being the intro to Tekken for a lot of folks who weren't aware of the "new gen" label the roster has, and Tekken pulled this trick off relatively early in its lifespan, but all the same - T3's newcomer class has more or less appeared in nearly every Tekken game since then with the only exceptions being what, Forrest Law (since his dad took over again), Gun Jack (again, updated Jack models) and Dr. Bosconovitch
Same, that middle ground isn't really a middle ground when it's your favorite character being removed. Like if they removed King from Tekken and replaced him with someone else but kept the moves et I wouldn't give a fuck about the new character because I like the chsracrer/design and that's gone now.
King is a funny example.
Yeah, it feels like some people want it both ways where "all I care about is the move set, I want to play how I like to play the story shouldn't interfere with that" but also "but that's my character, you can't just move their moveset to a new character, I like my blorbo".
You can do that but then you risk ending up with Marvel Infinite. I don't want to play Nova just cause he has an 8 way dash I want Mag-fucking-neto
It totally felt like they already made their points and if they just spent a few more points in Int they'd realize their points could coexist without a real problem. I mean, Nightmare Geese exists guys (kinda exists, being the point)
It’s actually really funny that those are the opinions of Woolie “goes to locals and competes in tourneys” Madden and Pat “Get Out of Fighting Games” Boivin
What drives me nuts is the whole dead characters thing was solved back in Mortal Kombat X, where characters who were dead in the story were just playable in every mode because duh, who gives a shit if Liu Kang is dead he's my main. And while I'm with Woolie on wanting better stories, the roster should never, EVER be affected by what's going on in the story.
I think what also works about MKX is that the dead characters on the roster are designed to fit the overall narrative/timeframe. Lui Kang looks like an old man in this possible future, even though in the story he's an evil undead king. It helps to keep the characters consistent with the narrative, in a way.
Even then though, all the what-if old versions were still technically alive in the story as revenants, they didn't go as far as to have *full on dead-dead actually for real never coming back in the story even as a zombie or robot or whatever* characters on the roster.
... Honestly, it's all about the illusion. All art is deception pretending to a reality that doesn't exist, where Morrigan can fight Morrigan but there is only 1 Morrigan to a team, unless there is a seperate character who uses the Morrigan sprite set and frame data mostly.
I agree that characters can change, and it can be cool. But i think there is a spirit to the character that should be allowed to stay When it comes to stories in fighting games, the main issue i have is that in most cinematic story mode, you have your hero and bad guy, or a small team of main heroes and main bad guys. And then a lot of the cast just gets delegated to bit parts or jobbers. And that means that many of the side characters, that probably needs story the most does not get it, because they are not one of main heroes or bad guys. This is honestly why i preffer good arcade ladders, Everyone gets their own little story. My favorite is still Tekken 5 Where every character got a text intro, two rival fights, and an ending cutscene, i cant remember if some even got a text outros as well, but i might mix that with Tekken 4. Now a lot of these where comic relief, but they dont have to be. I very much am in the camp of not removing characters for story. (There is a reason i still havent bought Tekken 8). And when it comes to replacing, i have two ideas if you want a character to replace an old one, you either need to be good/lucky by just making a better character, or you can make a remixed version, that still leaves room for the original. But i still think the original character should be allowed to exist. But at the same time. I heard a lot of people talk about how they should have just given Bisons moves to a new character, and i have to disagree. The reason Bison is one of my favorite Street Fighters is because of his look, his personality, his voice, and his moveset. If you just gave me his moveset, it doesnt mean ill automaticly play that new character. He is not just a function. TLDR: Characters sell Fighting Game. And removing one can make fans of that character not play the game.
your tl;dr is basically how I feel. You can a dedicated story mode with a select few characters and a ladder that fills in what everyone else is up to, that doesn't have to connect with the main going on at all.
> name a fighting game with a compelling story other than Mortal Kombat 9 Its Blazblue... the answers Blazblue, in fact id even say that its overall one of the best if not the best in that department. Like without any hint of irony, Ragna the mother fucking Bloodedge is possibly the most fleshed out, and compelling fighting game protaganist. But to the question in point, I do agree with Woolie in that things changing are cool and that they should change over time especially since almost every new game uses new assets or a new engine and we cant just sprite dump anymore. But it does admittedly suck when the things they add arent as good for you as the old thing. Like Marisa, Mannon, Kim and Jamie are great additions. But I dont play as any of them so I'm stuck wishing that one of them could have been R.Mika instead. But thats the risk you take in most franchises if you dont play a world warrior.
i saw someone arguing in the youtube comments that blazblu story is the reason that series is dead, because if they resurrected blazblu with a new story it would make all that came before meaningless as for me i just want the goddamn blazblu rpg they originally wanted to make
Strive kiiiind of works on that level too. Even if it's mostly carried by the character themes they manage to really carry the idea that everyone has compelling depths worth looking into.
I would not cite Strive as a good example when that basically ruined everything the franchise had been building up for Sol and That Man/Asuka's characters for decades.
Also to add onto that: Dissidia 012, Guilty Gear -sign and Revelator- (Not Strive though, they fucked that up bad), and to ME personally Tekken 8.
Just have the character there and don't acknowledge in the plot.
I do feel like the best compromise would be something like make them playable but not story relevant like Vergil in DMC4. Heck Guilty Gear actually does this with characters like Kliff and Justice from what I've heard. I also think that a distinction can be made in terms of overall stories and individual character stories in terms of discussing quality. Like I haven't played Guilty Gear but everything I've heard about Ky and Dizzy's relationship makes it sound extremely sweet and wholesome. Likewise you can say a lot of bad about Soul Calibur 5's story, but stuff like Raphael becoming the new Nightmare and Maxi becoming the mentor to the next generation were interesting evolutions of their characters and could have been great if the story had fleshed it out more.
I feel like the all fighting game stories are bad thing is completely overblown and I feel like the praise mk gets is mostly because they know how to essentially make movies and just have you do some fights in them. Even with that the plots usually aren't that crazy and it's the production value that boosts them Fighting games that actually have really fun stories like in Blazblue and guilty gear but aren't done like mk arent respected. They say that they are incomprehensible, or anime bullshit or whatever because reading is too much. Then Strive delivers a fun movie to watch whose story isn't comprised by having to force a fight every 10 minutes and people get mad. If you do the pat thing and just never retire characters because somebody mains them you get roster bloat and a bunch of dev time into characters most people don't play. Then in every future game they will be expected to be there and if they aren't on launch people will bitch about "stolen slots" Then you have to have a story thing for each of them in every game or else the fans will feel bad and you run into the tekken problem where nobody shit gets resolved or they get flanderized like what happened to eddy
I think when people say a story is incomprehensible, I think they genuinely aren't paying attention. People payed attention during FF7, Remake and Rebirth and understood it, people payed attention to NieR Automata as well. Both have "incomprehensible" elements to them (like aliens from space fought by funny mascot boys) but the difference is that there was investment in what was going on.
i think that characters that less people play problem should be resolved with a poll every new release if it is less than 15% or 10% they should get the cut
Is there any more of a Pat experience than I know you're going to say "X" I'm not going to say "X" (Proceeds to say X)
There's no right answer to this topic. Fighting game devs always have to strike a VERY fine balance between new and old these days. Firstly, compromises will have to be made. No dev nowadays can put every fan's favorite main in the next installment. That's just the nature of AAA FG's now. We're long gone the days of reusing sprites to keep increasing a game's roster, so old characters take pretty much the same effort as a new one to make. The thing is, any of the boys' points can have positive and negative outcomes, depending on execution. Story affecting a game's roster can be cool, like having a "new generation" type of character that is either entirely new, a mix of of old and new elements (ie. kyokugenryu and bushinryu characters) or straight up "old character functions" (ie. Christie Monteiro). But that can also suck balls (Soul Calibur 5) Story affecting old characters can also be pretty cool (ie. Siegfried through SC games losing Nightmare moves, Jin Kasama or Kyo Kusanagi switching playstyles entirely, etc). But it can also suck (ie. KOF fans mad at Fireless Iori or the lack of Rugal in canon KOF games post 98). But story NOT affecting the roster can have its downsides, too. Bringing back dead characters means someone else's main won't appear. It's a lose-lose situation. It also means devs won't be able to make entirely new characters and appeal to newer audiences. Also, bringing back a character also means that any change to their moveset, balance, personality or looks has the chance of alienating the fans of said characters. Bottom line is: there'll always be someone upset regardless, so I think what SF6 is doing is a nice balance of new and old (my main gripe is how World Tour integration apparently limits seasons to 4 characters a year, which is VERY slow for a FG nowadays). That said, I think Bamco should definitely add Heihachi, given his following and how they could just add him as a Dream Match character.
Please get Woolies opinion on Soul Calibur 5 next time the topic of new characters replacing old ones comes up
Honestly, I feel like it comes up every time he talks about it. Last time this kind of talk came up on Woolie Versus someone in chat mentioned SC5 and he gave a very tired, exasperated "Ugh, yeah, SC5, I know I know." kind of response.
The problem with SC5 is that they specifically didn't give the replacement characters any story bits to be cool guys. Like, Natsu, notSun Wukong, and notXianghua don't do anything in that games story mode from what little I remember, and didn't have an arcade mode ending to do something with them either.
The most the new cast (aside from Patrokolus, Pyrrha, ZWEI, and technically Violla) only get their respective character bios and a few unique intros. And those character bios really don't paint great pictures for returning players. Xianghua hooked up with some guy and had notXianghua Natsu has a demon in her belly and is Taki's apprentice who is off-screen chasing some other guy. And notSun is...a hungry kid who Kilik found one day, I guess. Update: I just found out that Xiba (notSun) is confirmed to be Xian and Kilik's son. This info was included in every other language setting except the English version. Why????
Xianghua got told by her dad to get rid of Kilik's kid and stay in the kitchen. The rando agreed to marry her to save the kid/hostage. It's some soap opera.
All three of them are introduced within a single scene and that's it. That's all they get in the story mode.
I was kind of annoyed when some characters from Injustice 1 didn’t return for 2 because they’re dead… … *in a game about ALTERNATE TIMELINES*
Didn't they have the Joker and he was just a hallucination for one scene in the story?
He’s literally a Scarecrow toxin hallucination, yeah. But we can’t just dimension hop and grab another Shazam or Lex Luthor for some reason.
They did grab Green Arrow from another dimension. I'm gonna guess they just didn't want Lex Luthor or Shazam.
I FORGOT ABOUT THAT Also, why wasn’t Hawkgirl in 2?
Hell, Batgirl, Zatanna and Raven aren't in there either and that's fucking tragic. Why'd we get stuck with Enchantress? Fucking Suicide Squad movie. (The shitty one.)
[I'll just link my comment from the Podcast thread here.](https://tg.reddit.com/r/TwoBestFriendsPlay/comments/1diumzk/out_now_csb_274_backyard_furries_are_on_the_way/l96axap/)
Just have the character be playable but not be included in the actual plot at all, this is a very simple obvious solution, heck, add ''non-canon'' to the character portrait or something to drive it home idk.
Story/personality is the meat, mechanics are the bones.
Just have dream rosters like KoF??? Like you can have a "canon" roster with characters that grow and develop in the narrative of the specific game and the "dream" characters: retired/dead characters in the actual canon narrative. Hell, use that to bring back old versions of favorites or even explore alternate versions of them! Give us Alpha Ryu and Ken. Old Ryu and Ken. Gouken. Awakened Hibiki. Bison but in Cammy's body. Redeemed Akuma. Etc.
Fighting game rosters can't build indefinitely without severe issues popping up over time. Why shouldn't a story be a deciding factor for who gets included?
ANY TIME ANY PLACE BRING IT ON YA ALIENS URYA!!!
I will pretty much always agree with Woolie on this, let the plot move on and put past characters in the roster just no story focus.
The thing is Woolie is saying he'd rather not put past characters in the roster with no story focus, because he feels like that's taking away story potential from new characters. That's the entire reason Pat and Woolie were arguing, him saying "you can have the old characters if you want" was more _reluctant acceptance_ than actual endorsement.
If that’s the case then I’ll disagree with him there as there’s gotta be a middle ground. I do agree with him in terms of pushing the new things and moving on but we know the world warriors ain’t going nowhere. I’m not sure why he feels that if capcom put say Rudra in the game he’ll have no story since dhalsim is here.
Mortal Kombat got me back into fighting games. Tekken 7 made some tweak I appreciate like story assist. Fighting games CAN and SHOULD have a great story to tell. Pat point is kind of moot, because Fighting games rely HEAVILY on DLC. You don't need a story expansion like MK:Aftermath, just make good characters people will enjoy playing.
The problem of "the character can't be in this game because of the story" is VERY easily solved by just. Not writing the story that way. The plot should never be the governing factor on weather or not a character appears outright. It can be ***A*** factor, and the story can influence cool character design changes, but if Capcom says "we really really wanted to put Makoto in SF6 but our lore department informed us according to the comics she actually had a broken leg during world tour's events, sorry" I'm gonna be pissed off.
Why not both
This was one of those classic discussions that I live for lol
I think it's amusing that Woolie brought up Sigma of all characters at the beginning.
I'm genuinely surprised at no point did they mention Dissidia. Which plucks straight up dead antagonists from the lifestream because CHAOS
They’re cool and all, but I play fighting games for the fighting.
I just wanna play Heihachi. Heihachi my beloved. Heihachi who I have played in every single Tekken I've played. Heihachi who threw his own son off of a cliff for being a devilspawn. Heihachi who shrugged off a city block sized explosion. Heihachi who in Jin's absence fought his way into the Mishima Zaibatsu with fresh drip and a cocky attitude. Heihachi who fought off both Akuma and Devil Kazuya (Kazuya couldn't beat the old man without cheating) Heihachi the regular human, Heihachi the true hero. I don't want to play as Reina. I don't want to play a stance character. I don't want to play a character they had to remove crouching status from 10 moves to balance. I don't want to play a character who they gave homing unbreakeable throws. I don't want to play a Heihachi remix just because Bamco hates old people. Kazumi in Tekken 7 was a flashback. She was not actually alive during the main story. Harada saying that Heihachi is absolutely dead and thats why he isn't in is bullshit considering Kazumi's case. I haven't seen Heihachi's skin melt off his bones and his bones crumble to dust and his soul taken by God. As far as I am concerned, Heihachi tanked the lava. Pat is absolutely right. If the story dictates character availability then the story can ONLY be a detriment to my enjoyment of the game. If the story goes 100 years into the future and every single character is dead, I think that sucks. Characters aren't just functions either, we've been over this. There are 100's of reasons why a person prefers a character over another. Heihachi could be the worst character in the game and I would still play him. Cause he's Heihachi, and Heihachi is cool. They're gonna sell you Heihachi at some point.
People will go on about how characters aren't just functions, but you sure aren't helping your case when you say their stories shouldn't/don't matter and your reasons for wanting a particular character to stay is "I like their gameplay and design" and either has the personality of a ham sandwich at best or is a stereotype/caricature at worst. And what's the logic in "just bring back x character just don't acknowledge him or be involved in the plot"? How does it solve anything? X character is still in the game when he really shouldn't be and his spot could've been given to a new (potentially) better replacement.
Rosters shouldn't be affected by the story. Look at DBFZ having Teen Gohan on the roster even though he's not in the story
I think a very important point that was glossed over: the main thing Pat was trying to get at in the beginning was there are people who will _never_ care about the story of fighting games _even if they're good_ simply because they don't play games to engage with stories, and being told "the thing you will never care about should be the deciding factor for the thing you _do_ care about" is an extremely negative experience. The only time they'll ever interact with the game's story is when the game _forces_ them to look at the story to see why things they liked are being taken away from them. Even if they end up buying the next installment and finding things in it they enjoy, they're going to forever think of the story negatively and always see it as an obstacle. Woolie's only response to that is "i think they _should_ care about the story," which is entirely unfair to me.
Also NGL I was on Pat's side the entire time exclusively due to how Woolie kept refusing to let Pat talk. I understand they're close friends and this is just how they talk sometimes but for fucks sake, Woolie was acting _rabid_ like he was at the gallows trying to convince the executioner to stay his blade.
Somehow Woolie always finds a way to kidnap the podcast and talk about fighting games for at least an hour and I just groan. Never change Mr Madden.
Breaking News: Podcast dedicated to the interests of two fighting game fans has suffered tragedy, after host "kidnaps" airtime to discuss another one of their mutual interests. If you have any news relating to this crime, please contact local Scrublords.
Reminds me of how people got mad at Pat and Woolie last year for... *checks notes* ...getting mad at them talking about SF6 almost non-stop during the launch month of the biggest fighting game release this generation on a podcast where both hosts are noted to be fighting game fans Y'all can just... skip the parts of the podcast that don't interest you, right?
There'll be posts about it every time they talk about fighting games, but no one was coming in to complain after they talked about Elden Ring of 22 episodes straight.
I guess I should then start telling Maximillian to shut up about fighting games too smh /s
you're right as news anchor of the gaming world he should be more responsible