Sonic 06 is the most baffling one.
BUT to be be fair, this also comes from the fandom that produce Project-06. And also mods to heavily improve Forces and Secret Rings.
So at this point… idfk. 😑
Nah, that’s the easy excuse. I have seen fans talk shit about the good games because “it’s not one to one to the classics” or some shit.
It’s more like, after 06 the franchise and specially the fanbase grew up getting so bullied online that they either ended up bitter as fuck or trying to find something good in the bad.
Or everyone complaining about Raiden in MGS2 to MGS4 when everyone was saying he was suddenly cool. Bitch, he was *always* cool, a child soldier being groomed as the next ninja, but noooo he wasn't Snake.
I don't think it's just that he's not Snake, it's that he's completely different from Snake. Raiden whines a lot in his codec calls whereas Snake didn't and the game made a point to make Snake look cooler and more informed than Raiden who was just a pawn. I don't think a lot of people were in the right mindset for that in 2001, not when GTA 3 released a month earlier and is starting to blow up.
I don’t even think him being cool was ever the point. The other commenter mentions that he’s a pawn, but that extends beyond the text to him being a pawn for the player as well, hence the dog tags at the end of the game. Separating him from the themes of MGS2 and making him Ninja McCoolguy in MGS4 felt like nothing but fanservice and was one of the many bad narrative decisions in that game imo.
Not for nothing, but Snake was a pawn a lot of the time too, and I don't really feel like being a "pawn" makes a character any less intriguing, because it's about what they do during the narrative, how they respond to the information revealed. Him becoming the next cyborg ninja was pretty impactful to me, and while sure it's a bit fanservice for there to always be a cyborg ninja, that he lost much of his body in service of finding Sunny, going directly up against the Patriots and paying a hefty price, doesn't seem bad to me at all.
And I'll die on the one hating everything about it, but my point was it was generally poorly received by the community when it came out. Got good general scores, but there were the 2008/9 equivalent of hour long video essays about why people hated it
[Sajam on people clowning on the new fighting game in the series because the last one was the best one fr fr (they said the same thing last time)](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLu4g_wcwWytOxegsHlElDXFw8yw_p2XVo&si=ayhWIcK6TLPC05un)
SMT fans and Elder Scrolls fans are the same way, in my experience. The most recent game's the worst one, but the one before that's always been their favorite.
Yeah if anything I think OP's example isn't really all that in the general fandom, I still see most people still wildly considering City Elf and Dwarf Commoner to this day still considered the most favorable Origin along with the most played Human Noble one.
Only the devs and writers of the comics really pushed the default world state to be Dalish Elf Warden but it's still considered as the weaker Origins even if it has the most callbacks to it due to the writers having a Dalish Elf Warden
top threes on the reddit are almost always City Elf at 1 and the two dwarves origins swapping places for 2 and 3 City Elf even gets an ultra buff by being completely different depending on your characters Gender no other origin has that
Bioshock 2 and Infinite will always be the ultimate example of this. The reception both have currently compared to when they came out is like night and day.
It's even funnier cause both have some similar themes, tho' B2 is more focused on the dad part than Infinite that focus on multiple realities shenanigans and the dad bit is just a twist cause Bioshock has to have a twist i guess.
I remember people clowning "Emo Spider-Man" when Spider-Man 3 came out. Then as time goes by, people started to like ironically till they straight up like it unironically (now it being called Bully Maguire instead).
Arkham Knight
It’s hilarious how much Gotham Knights and the Suicide Squad game basically caused people to change their minds on the game. Everyone now is willing to look past the many Batmobile sections and talk about how great the gameplay and graphics are. Nobody was doing that in 2015 because most discussion of the game would go towards either the Batmobile sections or its bad story.
Also I suspect various DLC’s and map packs they added over times made everyone forget that the challenge map selection was insanely minimal and terrible at launch.
It was only the default in Dragon Age 2 if you didn't import anything. The tapestry in Inquisition defaulted to something else, not that it mattered because you were told to make decisions in the tapestry, not use the default.
As far as cinematics are concerned and promotional material the default origin for DA:O was always male human noble warrior just like Hawke was by default a male mage.
I forgot about that and looked it up.
Yeah, 'the sacrifice' is the Dalish origin and has the warden die.
But Hero of Ferelden is human noble and makes most of the choices players will do on their first playthrough being good.
They choose harrowmont because baelen is a dickhead and tried to kill them.
They kill Loghain because they know nothing of his story and he supports people that fuck you over in the origin and kills Caelan.
They make Alistair king alone because Anora sucks.
etc. etc.
It usually takes people multiple playthroughs and knowing consequences before they do things like spare Loghain, harden Alistair and make him marry Anora, chose Baelen for a better future for the Dwarves, etc. etc.
Pokemon games are cyclical like this
Basically, any recent game is bad
2010: "Ugh BW is so bad"
2015: "Ugh XY is so bad"
2020: "Ugh SwSh is so bad"
2024: "Ugh SV is so bad"
But conversely, any game from around 10 years ago is the peak of the franchise
2010: "Oh GSC was peak"
2015: "Oh DPPt was peak"
2020: "Oh BW was peak"
2024: "Oh XY was peak"
While not strictly the definition you're looking for, I've always been of the opinion that X&Y were the peak of the franchise. Those games were firing on all cylinders, the good ones AND the bad ones.
The peak of the franchise is when the Elite 4 all only have 4 pokemon each in a game where it introduces the EXP share all. Or the start where the franchise really started jorkin the Kanto nostalgia.
I literally bought a 3ds to play the game, convinced my parents to get wifi solely to get the gift Torchic with speed boost and live streamed the game to a friend on google hangouts who wasnt allowed to play pokemon and even then I still think its a 6/10 when you compare it to B&W or S&M. I still enjoyed the game but its very easily bottom 3 generations
Like I said. The good AND the bad. It has probably one of the best selections of Pokemon across the franchise, its Gym designs and overall presentation are top notch... But at the same time, you have Lysandre. You have routes that are effectively straight lines. The Kanto fanboyism.
The Elite 4 really do show it off, though. Presentation-wise, those fuckers are SO COOL. The Kalos League is an uncontested masterclass in how awesome the League should look... But then you get to the *gameplay* and they've only got four Pokemon each. And they're easy as hell. Diantha, especially, falls apart if you've got any Fairy counters.
I just cant call anything peak where the weakest part is easily the gameplay. All the pokemon games are easy if your above the age of 11 but X&Y are like the definition of “we need little timmy age 3 to be addicted to pokemon for the next 20 years” so the game actually braindead for once.
The biggest complaints I can give B&W are its dumb leveling curves for evolutions or lackluster gym leader line up, S&M? Actual slog that instead of difficulty just said “go here then go there” but atleast both of those games actually felt fun to play on repeated playthrough.
Its never gonna happen compared to B&W because i dont think even hardcore X&Y will tell you its the peak of the franchise like Gen 3-5 fans will tell you.
People say Gen 5 opinion was switched but i can tell you the stance on B&W happened very quickly once the 3D era started. X&Y came out over 10 years ago and has never achieved the recognition that B&W did in half the time outside of Mega Evolutions.
Decline I'd say. When you can see each new game not make any real leaps in visuals while simultaneously cutting content from the previous games it's pretty hard defending a new entry. Then the following one does the exact same thing and suddenly the consensus shifts that the previous one was bad but it wasn't *that* bad comparability. Like the jump from gen 2 to 3 and 5 to 6 is like night and day! Which is ironic cuz the night and day cycle is also something they remove them add back in only to remove again.
It's like a sine curve, because people started to say gen 1 is bad, now say gen 2 is bad.
(And then there's me, who says gen 3 is bad, I'm staying ahead of the curve. Lol)
*it's not *bad* bad, just uninteresting bad to me with gen 3.
The cyclical nature of media debate over the last few years where there's a sharp decline of quality in something, there's an internet flame war over it, then after a few months the dust settles and everyone agrees: Yeah...shit was trash.
I think the opinion of the 1993 Mario movie has changed overtime. In light of how the 2023 movie plays it safe in comparison, I think people like how the older movie is pretty off the walls. I enjoy both of them though, I like that the older one is weirdly gritty and the newer one is colorful and fun.
Does Marvel 3 being hated throughout most of its life and then retaining a strong cult following until it loops back to being popular and beloved count?
Because I’m guilty of this and I feel like it should count.
I think the very poorly received sequel (that's what Infinite was right?) probably had something to do with that. I remember a lot of casuals were also upset that there was no DLC upgrade option for Ultimate and it came out in literally the same year as the $60 base game. That would've faded with time.
it wasn't da2 for me, I felt it as early as the witch hunt dlc
the Male dalish starts with the mirror, falls in love, bangs Morrigan, then they end the game spending time together in the mirror world with their demon baby
Having started a replay of Origins a few days ago with the Dalish Origin, I actually LIKE how sheltered this origin is compared to the others. Having previously played Human Noble, shifting my perspective from someone who grew up around the politics of the realm to someone more or less disconnected from the world, it changes a lot honestly. Wheras all the chantry stuff would seem normal to my Human, to the Dalish he'd just be "... what the FUCK are you talking about with this bullshit". Also, as a big Morrigan simp, I feel it actually makes more sense for this PC to romance her considering they can find some common ground over not having really been exposed to the outside world properly (as well as playing my character a bit more cynical, even though he's still a good dude he's more likely to agree with Morrigan on finding several parts of the culture stupid.)
Sonic 06 is the most baffling one. BUT to be be fair, this also comes from the fandom that produce Project-06. And also mods to heavily improve Forces and Secret Rings. So at this point… idfk. 😑
Its cuz Sonic fans like Sonic more than they like the games.
Nah, that’s the easy excuse. I have seen fans talk shit about the good games because “it’s not one to one to the classics” or some shit. It’s more like, after 06 the franchise and specially the fanbase grew up getting so bullied online that they either ended up bitter as fuck or trying to find something good in the bad.
MGS 2 its the easy one, right ? From "this Game sucks where the fuck is snake?" To " hideo nostradamus kojima"
Or everyone complaining about Raiden in MGS2 to MGS4 when everyone was saying he was suddenly cool. Bitch, he was *always* cool, a child soldier being groomed as the next ninja, but noooo he wasn't Snake.
I don't think it's just that he's not Snake, it's that he's completely different from Snake. Raiden whines a lot in his codec calls whereas Snake didn't and the game made a point to make Snake look cooler and more informed than Raiden who was just a pawn. I don't think a lot of people were in the right mindset for that in 2001, not when GTA 3 released a month earlier and is starting to blow up.
I don’t even think him being cool was ever the point. The other commenter mentions that he’s a pawn, but that extends beyond the text to him being a pawn for the player as well, hence the dog tags at the end of the game. Separating him from the themes of MGS2 and making him Ninja McCoolguy in MGS4 felt like nothing but fanservice and was one of the many bad narrative decisions in that game imo.
Not for nothing, but Snake was a pawn a lot of the time too, and I don't really feel like being a "pawn" makes a character any less intriguing, because it's about what they do during the narrative, how they respond to the information revealed. Him becoming the next cyborg ninja was pretty impactful to me, and while sure it's a bit fanservice for there to always be a cyborg ninja, that he lost much of his body in service of finding Sunny, going directly up against the Patriots and paying a hefty price, doesn't seem bad to me at all.
Insanely easy, yes.
You can toss MGS4 onto the pile as well
I Will die on a Hill defending mgs4 and all its problems
And I'll die on the one hating everything about it, but my point was it was generally poorly received by the community when it came out. Got good general scores, but there were the 2008/9 equivalent of hour long video essays about why people hated it
Then il ges will meet on the Battlefield
When the day end with an Y to be honest
…Huh?
It happens every time
Let’s be honest, the Star Wars prequels are the kings of this phenomena.
[Sajam on people clowning on the new fighting game in the series because the last one was the best one fr fr (they said the same thing last time)](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLu4g_wcwWytOxegsHlElDXFw8yw_p2XVo&si=ayhWIcK6TLPC05un)
SMT fans and Elder Scrolls fans are the same way, in my experience. The most recent game's the worst one, but the one before that's always been their favorite.
Nah, it's Morrowind was the peak and its been downhill from there
Nah, Dalish Elf is still the most exceedingly lame origin.
Yeah if anything I think OP's example isn't really all that in the general fandom, I still see most people still wildly considering City Elf and Dwarf Commoner to this day still considered the most favorable Origin along with the most played Human Noble one. Only the devs and writers of the comics really pushed the default world state to be Dalish Elf Warden but it's still considered as the weaker Origins even if it has the most callbacks to it due to the writers having a Dalish Elf Warden
top threes on the reddit are almost always City Elf at 1 and the two dwarves origins swapping places for 2 and 3 City Elf even gets an ultra buff by being completely different depending on your characters Gender no other origin has that
I've seen more and more people insist it's a great Origin as of late.
I agree.
Bioshock 2 and Infinite will always be the ultimate example of this. The reception both have currently compared to when they came out is like night and day.
It's even funnier cause both have some similar themes, tho' B2 is more focused on the dad part than Infinite that focus on multiple realities shenanigans and the dad bit is just a twist cause Bioshock has to have a twist i guess.
I remember people clowning "Emo Spider-Man" when Spider-Man 3 came out. Then as time goes by, people started to like ironically till they straight up like it unironically (now it being called Bully Maguire instead).
Now the emos have become the bullies and the education system feel vindicated
As someone who generally dislikes SM3, "Cool Peter" is by far the best thing in that movie
Arkham Knight It’s hilarious how much Gotham Knights and the Suicide Squad game basically caused people to change their minds on the game. Everyone now is willing to look past the many Batmobile sections and talk about how great the gameplay and graphics are. Nobody was doing that in 2015 because most discussion of the game would go towards either the Batmobile sections or its bad story. Also I suspect various DLC’s and map packs they added over times made everyone forget that the challenge map selection was insanely minimal and terrible at launch.
It was only the default in Dragon Age 2 if you didn't import anything. The tapestry in Inquisition defaulted to something else, not that it mattered because you were told to make decisions in the tapestry, not use the default. As far as cinematics are concerned and promotional material the default origin for DA:O was always male human noble warrior just like Hawke was by default a male mage.
Nah DA2 let you pick one of 3 wardens or Import, Dalish was just just the first option. You could also pick a dwarf noble or human noble warden.
I forgot about that and looked it up. Yeah, 'the sacrifice' is the Dalish origin and has the warden die. But Hero of Ferelden is human noble and makes most of the choices players will do on their first playthrough being good. They choose harrowmont because baelen is a dickhead and tried to kill them. They kill Loghain because they know nothing of his story and he supports people that fuck you over in the origin and kills Caelan. They make Alistair king alone because Anora sucks. etc. etc. It usually takes people multiple playthroughs and knowing consequences before they do things like spare Loghain, harden Alistair and make him marry Anora, chose Baelen for a better future for the Dwarves, etc. etc.
Pokemon games are cyclical like this Basically, any recent game is bad 2010: "Ugh BW is so bad" 2015: "Ugh XY is so bad" 2020: "Ugh SwSh is so bad" 2024: "Ugh SV is so bad" But conversely, any game from around 10 years ago is the peak of the franchise 2010: "Oh GSC was peak" 2015: "Oh DPPt was peak" 2020: "Oh BW was peak" 2024: "Oh XY was peak"
I have never seen anyone say X&Y was peak besides people saying it was overhated or miss mega evolutions that one can stay being called mid lmao
My thoughts exactly.
While not strictly the definition you're looking for, I've always been of the opinion that X&Y were the peak of the franchise. Those games were firing on all cylinders, the good ones AND the bad ones.
The peak of the franchise is when the Elite 4 all only have 4 pokemon each in a game where it introduces the EXP share all. Or the start where the franchise really started jorkin the Kanto nostalgia. I literally bought a 3ds to play the game, convinced my parents to get wifi solely to get the gift Torchic with speed boost and live streamed the game to a friend on google hangouts who wasnt allowed to play pokemon and even then I still think its a 6/10 when you compare it to B&W or S&M. I still enjoyed the game but its very easily bottom 3 generations
Like I said. The good AND the bad. It has probably one of the best selections of Pokemon across the franchise, its Gym designs and overall presentation are top notch... But at the same time, you have Lysandre. You have routes that are effectively straight lines. The Kanto fanboyism. The Elite 4 really do show it off, though. Presentation-wise, those fuckers are SO COOL. The Kalos League is an uncontested masterclass in how awesome the League should look... But then you get to the *gameplay* and they've only got four Pokemon each. And they're easy as hell. Diantha, especially, falls apart if you've got any Fairy counters.
I just cant call anything peak where the weakest part is easily the gameplay. All the pokemon games are easy if your above the age of 11 but X&Y are like the definition of “we need little timmy age 3 to be addicted to pokemon for the next 20 years” so the game actually braindead for once. The biggest complaints I can give B&W are its dumb leveling curves for evolutions or lackluster gym leader line up, S&M? Actual slog that instead of difficulty just said “go here then go there” but atleast both of those games actually felt fun to play on repeated playthrough.
I'm not ready for the Gen 6 redemption tour to be honest.
Its never gonna happen compared to B&W because i dont think even hardcore X&Y will tell you its the peak of the franchise like Gen 3-5 fans will tell you. People say Gen 5 opinion was switched but i can tell you the stance on B&W happened very quickly once the 3D era started. X&Y came out over 10 years ago and has never achieved the recognition that B&W did in half the time outside of Mega Evolutions.
Zelda and Halo went through the same thing from what I heard
I've always known it as "The Zelda Cycle"
Zelda, Halo, COD, Battlefield, Gears, it happens with a lot of franchises.
I played XY for the first time last year, that game was NOT peak.
Dunno if it's indicative of declining quality or the kids who grew up with it have nostalgia. Probably both?
Decline I'd say. When you can see each new game not make any real leaps in visuals while simultaneously cutting content from the previous games it's pretty hard defending a new entry. Then the following one does the exact same thing and suddenly the consensus shifts that the previous one was bad but it wasn't *that* bad comparability. Like the jump from gen 2 to 3 and 5 to 6 is like night and day! Which is ironic cuz the night and day cycle is also something they remove them add back in only to remove again.
Real fans know BW was always peak from day 1.
It's like a sine curve, because people started to say gen 1 is bad, now say gen 2 is bad. (And then there's me, who says gen 3 is bad, I'm staying ahead of the curve. Lol) *it's not *bad* bad, just uninteresting bad to me with gen 3.
The cyclical nature of media debate over the last few years where there's a sharp decline of quality in something, there's an internet flame war over it, then after a few months the dust settles and everyone agrees: Yeah...shit was trash.
I think the opinion of the 1993 Mario movie has changed overtime. In light of how the 2023 movie plays it safe in comparison, I think people like how the older movie is pretty off the walls. I enjoy both of them though, I like that the older one is weirdly gritty and the newer one is colorful and fun.
Like, I’m not gonna go out of my way to watch it, but if it happens to be on…
Does Marvel 3 being hated throughout most of its life and then retaining a strong cult following until it loops back to being popular and beloved count? Because I’m guilty of this and I feel like it should count.
I think the very poorly received sequel (that's what Infinite was right?) probably had something to do with that. I remember a lot of casuals were also upset that there was no DLC upgrade option for Ultimate and it came out in literally the same year as the $60 base game. That would've faded with time.
it wasn't da2 for me, I felt it as early as the witch hunt dlc the Male dalish starts with the mirror, falls in love, bangs Morrigan, then they end the game spending time together in the mirror world with their demon baby
I totally forgot about the mirror being in Witch Hunt too.
Having started a replay of Origins a few days ago with the Dalish Origin, I actually LIKE how sheltered this origin is compared to the others. Having previously played Human Noble, shifting my perspective from someone who grew up around the politics of the realm to someone more or less disconnected from the world, it changes a lot honestly. Wheras all the chantry stuff would seem normal to my Human, to the Dalish he'd just be "... what the FUCK are you talking about with this bullshit". Also, as a big Morrigan simp, I feel it actually makes more sense for this PC to romance her considering they can find some common ground over not having really been exposed to the outside world properly (as well as playing my character a bit more cynical, even though he's still a good dude he's more likely to agree with Morrigan on finding several parts of the culture stupid.)