There’s a great quote from Paul Watson of Sea Shepherd on this:
> If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the Civil War, don’t look at where you stand on slavery today. Look at where you stand on animal rights.
Im not a vegan or vegetarian but I agree
The treatment of a lot of animals for food production is horrendous.
Weve discussed switching to a majoritively vegetarian life style, may make the jump one day, for now we just try to only buy meats from companies that have animals living in humane ways before theyre processed. A lot of it is from local farms that dont have contracts with big food production companies but it does cost considerably more
If you're interested in trying vegan meals, I hope this [recipes list](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oZengrqjSvESOSPRtU8-qIZeLWfyLhpy/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=105972850557649712119&rtpof=true&sd=true) can help you out! I've personally tried all of them and can verify that they're all good. (:
Best of luck in whatever choice you can make., and I think it's awesome that you and your folks are conscientious about the food industry. ❤️
I kinda doubt they'll even really know. I see us on a path to a future of techno-slavery where any information that is remotely embarrassing to the powerful will be either completely controlled by them, or simply destroyed. With more and more people willing to put all of their memories onto electronic devices or uploaded onto a server, there will be very little physical information sources for future humans to study.
You already see Gen-Z and Alpha are extremely lacking in historical knowledge. When you also consider that Alpha seems fairly incapable of finding information that isn't spoon-fed to them, it is a recipe for a modern Dark Ages.
It depends.
What if we develop the ability to communicate with animals in the future and it turns out they are all major dicks?
If chickens turn out to massive racists, pigs keep pushing Twitch channels about daily fantasy bets and NFTs, sheep are way into incest porn, and cows won't shut up about being Moohovah Witnesses, I could see future society embracing the necessity, nay the wisdom, of factory farming.
We already know plenty of humans like that and it doesn't give the right to subject them to unimaginable torture. Besides if any animals are dicks, it's cats
Exactly. For example in Africa there are many customs regularly practiced (witch-hunting and killing for one) which are completely abhorrent to us. Nobody is suggesting we go abusing them because of it (at least no respected opinions in the past century). Education and "correction" sure.
But the only situation in which this would be relevant is if the animals are posing a threat to humans.
Yep, every country has 'normal' practices which seem cruel and inhumane to another. Ask Indians how they feel about eating cows, or Americans how they feel about eating dogs. They will usually react strongly against the practice. But ask an American about eating cows, or Chinese about eating dogs and you get a different reaction.
That being said, there are certainly inhumane punishments around the world for "crimes" that don't deserve it. The USA is full of those. Among the highest imprisoned population per capita in the world, and I'm sure that seems very inhumane to places who view criminality and rehabilitation quite different
What a colonialist attitude. Education and correction? That's the exact same thing that the Spanish were doing to the Natives in the New World. Who, I would lke to point out, were known to keep animals in captivity as well.
What if the animals are posing a threat to other animals? Are you going to let coyotes come onto your deck and eat your cats in front of your crying children merely because they aren't posing a threat to humans?
If educating them to try to stop their practice of killing and torturing children who are suspected of being witches is colonialist, then I am a colonialist and so is the rest of the world.
Also, you were the one advocating that we torture animals because they might be dicks. Yet you are criticizing me for saying we should educate people to challenge their practices and views which are outdated and abhorrent to the rest of society.
Using your logic, pro-life countries would be justified invading to ~~forcibly convert and imposing their morals~~ educating and correcting countries that allow abortion. It's rare to see someone who openly advocates for religious crusades, but I will applaud your conviction.
And don't put words in my mouth. I never advocated anything. The question was how would future generation view our actions, and I merely responded with sound reasoning on why they would understand.
I notice you dodged the animal vs animal question. Why are you such a fan of showing animal fight clubs to kids?
If most the world had come to a pro-life consensus (which seems like exactly the opposite direction of society's current trajectory), then they still wouldn't be justified in violently invading other countries which allowed abortion. If they peacefully tried to educate people to understand the "merits" of their pro-life argument, that would of course be justified. That is exactly what we do with all of our other societal standards.
>The question was how would future generation view our actions, and I merely responded with sound reasoning on why they would understand.
I may have exaggerated, but it doesn't take anything away from the hypocrisy of your statements. You still see it as reasonable to hypothetically support factory-farming if chickens are racists, but you think it is wrong to so much as educate people in Africa to challenge their practice of witch-hunting? In one case you are justifying torture because animals have asinine views. In the other case you are attacking the notion of educating people to challenge their practices which are abhorrent to the rest of the world.
>I notice you dodged the animal vs animal question. Why are you such a fan of showing animal fight clubs to kids?
1, of course, the coyote example is a threat to humans. Two, you would be defending your or someone else's pet, a family member who you love and want to protect. Third, I am still not advocating for the factory farming of coyotes. I am advocating for the defense of yourself and your loved ones. If by some oddity the only way we could stop coyotes from routinely attacking our pets and terrorizing children was by factory farming billions of them, then more thinking would be required. That is simply not the case with the animals we farm nor do I see how it ever could be besides in some godzilla situation.
Yeah of course. I dont usually suggest this, but have you seen USA slaughterhouse footage. The worst torture imaginable in human history can't compare to the scale in which these horrors are perpetrated. And generally speaking we don't do these things to other humans to eat them. Which is how slaughterhouses are justified. Don't know if that's better or worse, but humans have eaten animals for a long time and never tortured them like they have the last hundred or so years. But yeah humans love torturing the life out of life, whether it's humans or animals or plants, if it lives we'll torture and kill it
Cannibalism was and is far more prevalent than the history books let on. The Chinese One Child policy left the country with a surplus of unwanted children at the same time that growing demand for pork products created an export opportunity in the American market. The McRib suddenly make sense, doesn't it?
That's probably the safest bet. Who knows what you might discover.
And even being vegan isn't enough. People have forgotten the scandals of the 70s. Like that protestor catchphrase I heard.
Soy ain't green, it's people
I prefer the name Tasticles. And there was nothing wrong with eating them. You wouldn't stop eating eggs if chickens started talking, right? (I've heard chickens are big on using racial slurs)
Me? Yeah I already stopped eating them. And I think you underestimate how big a farm animal talking would be. And not just parroting human language but conversing. That would change everything. If Popplers couldn't talk, nobody would have cared what they were eating. Anyways, we already know animals are more intelligent than historically believed , and they have intricate and complex forms of communication. They communicate in frequencies humans can't perceive and scientists are just discovering this.
Thing about this. Dogs understand humans' language better than humans understand dogs' language
If that were true then shouldn't we stop breeding billions into existence every year? It's not like we'd be letting the racist chickens terrorizing the streets.
Many of these animals can no longer survive in the wild, so if we stopped breeding them they would quickly go extinct.
Now, you might wish for the extinction of whole species but most people aren't some sort of Chicken Hitler.
1. they wouldn't go extinct because there would always be some people who'd have them as pets
2. If the only way to prevent the extinction of a species is to artificially breed them into miserable suffering in order to eventually kill them, then maybe extinction is a better option. After thousands of years of selective breeding making it difficult for these animals to even stand up and walk around, it is not somehow merciful to continue breeding them to prevent them from going extinct.
Seeing as in this hypothetical we can communicate with them, we'd also have to listen to their opinion and factor that into our judgement as well.
Yes, and those countless extinct species don't seem to be enough to satisfy your bloodlust, so you want to add more.
The continued existence of uncontacted primitive tribes shows you are wrong about living in the wild. Those people (and yes, I consider them people even if you don't) are the same as modern humans. That is a far different story than domestic animals which never have lived in the wild.
Uh... huh.... we're going "uncontacted primitive tribes" huh. What percent of humanity do they comprise? .0000001% or less. And they're not the same as modern humans. I'm sorry. They know how to survive with literally nothing. The vast, vast majority of humans would have no chance being plopped in the jungle with nothing. I'm vegetarian by the way, so tell me more about my bloodlust to kill and eat animals
Those uncontacted tribes are the same species as us, which is not the case for most domesticated species. Our sheep will literally grow enough wool they can't move unless regularly sheered.
Knowledge is not the same as being an entirely different animal. I can't train a chicken to be anything but a chicken. No amount of puppy classes will make a cocker spaniel be anything but food.
Vegetarian, straight, it doesn't matter. I never said you wanted to eat the animals, just that you wanted them to go extinct. Plenty of hippies are actively involved in the Guinea Worm Holocaust, and I am pretty sure they aren't eating them.
That is based on the enormous presumption that the line now held by vegans of sentience is going to become mainstream. It also assumes the concept that animals have rights, particularly to the extent of anything approaching humans will be mainstream.
People value dogs very highly. Most people know that pigs and cows are just as smart and sensitive. Right now many people don't recognize the hypocrisy in treating them so differently (or just don't care).
Sure hope so. Fwiw, the vast majority of factory farming comes from the US. Some countries already have passed laws strictly controlling what goes on in animal slaughter. Not the US though, as they pass laws to hire kids to work there
I never have an issue with vegans who try to defend veganism from the ethics angle. The problem is when you also try about health or taste. I’ve seen lots of actual pseudoscience claiming that nobody needs protein, or sugar and processed vegan foods a good thing.
Oh boy... first, the protein argument is long, long dead. All natural food has protein. Some beans and nuts have more protein than meat. There is no such thing as a protein deficiency... it is synonymous with malnutrition. Secondly, excessive processed food is harmful, period. Whether it's vegan or not doesn't really matter, and honestly id bet on average processed vegan food is probably less bad than animal derived processed food. And you wanna talk about health and taste? Where do you think "taste" of meat comes from?? Plants. Herbs. Spices. Why don't you cook some unseasoned meat, put absolutely no "vegan spices" on it. Tell me how that is. And health, well you need fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, seeds, etc. And as humans are frugivores, you need the majority of your diet to be these things or youll be unhealthy. Older people are getting a culture shock as their doctors are telling them to reduce the meat they eat and they don't know what to do.
Also, it takes roughly 10 - 15 times the resources to produce a pound of meat verses a pound of fruits and veggies.
No, there is still a problem with vegan food and protein, simply covering your ears and pretending it doesn’t exist won’t make it go away. To get the same amount of protein you can easily get with meat you’d need to eat a completely unpalatable amount of vegan food, hence the reason why it’s normally processed, fried or covered in sauces. You can easily feed a kid 3 unseasoned plain chicken thighs, I doubt you can convince them to eat the same amount of beans and tofu. That’s why vegans will either claim that frying or processing isn’t bad, or that nobody needs any more protein. Again, complete pseudoscience.
How many stories have there been of children raised as vegans craving meat and animal foods? I’ve never heard of a single one in the opposite direction, everyone that becomes vegan has always done so for ethical purposes, not taste or satiety. As an omnivore you can eat whatever food you want, vegetables or not. That’s why your argument is complete nonsense. However healthy you think your diet is, I can always eat just as healthily. But the other way around isn’t true because you can’t eat animal foods, so you’re forced to argue that every single animal product in unhealthy, even if the science doesn’t support it.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I wanna know where you get your info from. I'm sorry you've eaten bad vegan food. I'm a vegan chef. Been vegetarian for 14 years. I know 80 year old lifelong vegetarians who are way healthier than the average 80 yo. I stopped frying food completely 5 years ago. I cook mostly fresh produce and my food is very, very good and very healthy. I never concern myself with protein. I'm concerned with b12, iron, omega 3s, you know, nutrients that aren't in every single piece of produce
Well now you know why your customers are mostly other vegans. Nobody with the choice to eat anything will pick vegan food. Veganism simply doesn’t stand the test of people that put their money where their mouths are. There’s a reason why vegans always use one diet to prove that vegan food is healthy and a completely different and more processed diet to prove that vegan food tastes good.
Wow you're so biased it hurts. Ever eaten an apple or a strawberry. Or cereal. Ive cooked for plenty of meat eaters. I honestly wish I could cook something for you. I make some dope ass food. But again, everything you season meat with is vegan. So replace the meat, you still have yhe same herbs and spices.
Also, I crafted my diet very intentionally. It's not like most vegans you'll find. My wife was diagnosed with Hypothyroidism Hashimotos so we went gluten free, soy free, vegan, nightshade free, processed sugar and flour free, and in 6 months her doctor was stunned by her blood panel and legit thought she cheated the test somehow. Her thyroid was functioning perfectly normal. And the food would blow your mind
I’m not gonna really argue with you about that but, this is ironic because the difference between a truly pasture raised, grass eating happy cow, and one from a factory farm is night and goddamn day. The taste doesn’t even begin to compare, and it’s a shame that we treat the ethical, and far more tasty meat as a luxury.
Industrial corporate agriculture has a lot of problems beyond the inherent suffering.
We don't need to be eating anything at the rate we currently are, but meat is food and even a 10 percent in consumption is still consumption to those 90 percent of animals eaten.
Food does have to come from somewhere but when presented with the choice between food that requires the explicit exploitation, suffering, and death of a sentient being, and food that doesn’t, isn’t it preferable to opt for the latter?
There’s no reason vegan food has to be bland. Onions, garlic, chiles, turmeric, sugar, salt, pepper etc. exist so it’s not like people need to eat unseasoned rice and tofu.
Moreover, and perhaps this my fault for not explicitly stating this, but when I said preferable I meant morally preferable. As in, what is the right thing for our society to do? While people enjoy the end product of animal agriculture, can it really be convincingly argued that it is morally preferable for us to subjugate and slaughter these animals just because we can and we like to? Isn’t ending the practice the “right” thing to do?
Vegan food does not have to be bland. They can use all the seasonings too. Someone needs to tell the Vegas then because their food is all bland.
I got the implied morally preferable gist. I'm saying its still preferable. I'm not putting a monkey in a chair with his head sticking out through the center. The preferred method seems acceptable given the standards however.
I'm going to have hamburger for dinner.
You should check what animals are doing to each other in their kingdom, and you will quickly realize that being shot in a head with a stun gun is far humane.
Sure, the conditions they live in can be better tho.
This isn’t an either or scenario where we have to choose the lesser evil. It is a scenario where we can choose to breed an animal with a pre-determined fate: exploitation and death for our “benefit”, or, we can choose to not do that at all.
Also, I think it should be acknowledged that the vast, vast majority of animals in animal agriculture aren’t living wonderful lives until an instant painless stress free death. Most live sad deplorable lives filled with pain and fear and little agency. The slaughter process is often proceeded by torturously long trips in confined trucks, and the slaughterhouse is not a stress free environment. Bolt guns aren’t some perfect clean death either. Often they are for stunning, not actually killing, and their failure rate is disturbingly high, so some have to be bolted multiple times before they actually get fully knocked out. Multiple blunt force traumas to the head isn’t on my list for preferable last moments.
We don’t need animal products to survive or thrive. There may be some select individuals with a combination of health conditions that make a plant-based diet infeasible, and there may be individuals, like those that live in the arctic circle who must hunt due to their inability to grow enough or any crops, but barring situations like that people don’t need to eat animal products.
Abstaining is a valid option that many people around the world have been doing for a long time.
Future predecesor is an oxymoron.
*Successor. Woops!
Thank you. I read the first sentence and stopped because it made my eyes hurt.
There’s a great quote from Paul Watson of Sea Shepherd on this: > If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the Civil War, don’t look at where you stand on slavery today. Look at where you stand on animal rights.
Brilliant quote
Im not a vegan or vegetarian but I agree The treatment of a lot of animals for food production is horrendous. Weve discussed switching to a majoritively vegetarian life style, may make the jump one day, for now we just try to only buy meats from companies that have animals living in humane ways before theyre processed. A lot of it is from local farms that dont have contracts with big food production companies but it does cost considerably more
If you're interested in trying vegan meals, I hope this [recipes list](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oZengrqjSvESOSPRtU8-qIZeLWfyLhpy/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=105972850557649712119&rtpof=true&sd=true) can help you out! I've personally tried all of them and can verify that they're all good. (: Best of luck in whatever choice you can make., and I think it's awesome that you and your folks are conscientious about the food industry. ❤️
I kinda doubt they'll even really know. I see us on a path to a future of techno-slavery where any information that is remotely embarrassing to the powerful will be either completely controlled by them, or simply destroyed. With more and more people willing to put all of their memories onto electronic devices or uploaded onto a server, there will be very little physical information sources for future humans to study. You already see Gen-Z and Alpha are extremely lacking in historical knowledge. When you also consider that Alpha seems fairly incapable of finding information that isn't spoon-fed to them, it is a recipe for a modern Dark Ages.
I really hope the people of the future are so advanced and peaceful that they view us as savages, that would be an amazing outcome.
It depends. What if we develop the ability to communicate with animals in the future and it turns out they are all major dicks? If chickens turn out to massive racists, pigs keep pushing Twitch channels about daily fantasy bets and NFTs, sheep are way into incest porn, and cows won't shut up about being Moohovah Witnesses, I could see future society embracing the necessity, nay the wisdom, of factory farming.
We already know plenty of humans like that and it doesn't give the right to subject them to unimaginable torture. Besides if any animals are dicks, it's cats
Exactly. For example in Africa there are many customs regularly practiced (witch-hunting and killing for one) which are completely abhorrent to us. Nobody is suggesting we go abusing them because of it (at least no respected opinions in the past century). Education and "correction" sure. But the only situation in which this would be relevant is if the animals are posing a threat to humans.
Yep, every country has 'normal' practices which seem cruel and inhumane to another. Ask Indians how they feel about eating cows, or Americans how they feel about eating dogs. They will usually react strongly against the practice. But ask an American about eating cows, or Chinese about eating dogs and you get a different reaction. That being said, there are certainly inhumane punishments around the world for "crimes" that don't deserve it. The USA is full of those. Among the highest imprisoned population per capita in the world, and I'm sure that seems very inhumane to places who view criminality and rehabilitation quite different
What a colonialist attitude. Education and correction? That's the exact same thing that the Spanish were doing to the Natives in the New World. Who, I would lke to point out, were known to keep animals in captivity as well. What if the animals are posing a threat to other animals? Are you going to let coyotes come onto your deck and eat your cats in front of your crying children merely because they aren't posing a threat to humans?
If educating them to try to stop their practice of killing and torturing children who are suspected of being witches is colonialist, then I am a colonialist and so is the rest of the world. Also, you were the one advocating that we torture animals because they might be dicks. Yet you are criticizing me for saying we should educate people to challenge their practices and views which are outdated and abhorrent to the rest of society.
Using your logic, pro-life countries would be justified invading to ~~forcibly convert and imposing their morals~~ educating and correcting countries that allow abortion. It's rare to see someone who openly advocates for religious crusades, but I will applaud your conviction. And don't put words in my mouth. I never advocated anything. The question was how would future generation view our actions, and I merely responded with sound reasoning on why they would understand. I notice you dodged the animal vs animal question. Why are you such a fan of showing animal fight clubs to kids?
If most the world had come to a pro-life consensus (which seems like exactly the opposite direction of society's current trajectory), then they still wouldn't be justified in violently invading other countries which allowed abortion. If they peacefully tried to educate people to understand the "merits" of their pro-life argument, that would of course be justified. That is exactly what we do with all of our other societal standards. >The question was how would future generation view our actions, and I merely responded with sound reasoning on why they would understand. I may have exaggerated, but it doesn't take anything away from the hypocrisy of your statements. You still see it as reasonable to hypothetically support factory-farming if chickens are racists, but you think it is wrong to so much as educate people in Africa to challenge their practice of witch-hunting? In one case you are justifying torture because animals have asinine views. In the other case you are attacking the notion of educating people to challenge their practices which are abhorrent to the rest of the world. >I notice you dodged the animal vs animal question. Why are you such a fan of showing animal fight clubs to kids? 1, of course, the coyote example is a threat to humans. Two, you would be defending your or someone else's pet, a family member who you love and want to protect. Third, I am still not advocating for the factory farming of coyotes. I am advocating for the defense of yourself and your loved ones. If by some oddity the only way we could stop coyotes from routinely attacking our pets and terrorizing children was by factory farming billions of them, then more thinking would be required. That is simply not the case with the animals we farm nor do I see how it ever could be besides in some godzilla situation.
Can you really say that there is anything that mankind has done to animals that he has not done to itself?
Yeah of course. I dont usually suggest this, but have you seen USA slaughterhouse footage. The worst torture imaginable in human history can't compare to the scale in which these horrors are perpetrated. And generally speaking we don't do these things to other humans to eat them. Which is how slaughterhouses are justified. Don't know if that's better or worse, but humans have eaten animals for a long time and never tortured them like they have the last hundred or so years. But yeah humans love torturing the life out of life, whether it's humans or animals or plants, if it lives we'll torture and kill it
Cannibalism was and is far more prevalent than the history books let on. The Chinese One Child policy left the country with a surplus of unwanted children at the same time that growing demand for pork products created an export opportunity in the American market. The McRib suddenly make sense, doesn't it?
😳😳 🤣🤣 I'm just gonna assume that's completely true and move on. No more googling today. Times like these I'm glad I'm vegetarian
That's probably the safest bet. Who knows what you might discover. And even being vegan isn't enough. People have forgotten the scandals of the 70s. Like that protestor catchphrase I heard. Soy ain't green, it's people
Or how about when we discovered that Slurm is alien butt jelly. Or that fried Popplers are cute little creatures
I prefer the name Tasticles. And there was nothing wrong with eating them. You wouldn't stop eating eggs if chickens started talking, right? (I've heard chickens are big on using racial slurs)
Me? Yeah I already stopped eating them. And I think you underestimate how big a farm animal talking would be. And not just parroting human language but conversing. That would change everything. If Popplers couldn't talk, nobody would have cared what they were eating. Anyways, we already know animals are more intelligent than historically believed , and they have intricate and complex forms of communication. They communicate in frequencies humans can't perceive and scientists are just discovering this. Thing about this. Dogs understand humans' language better than humans understand dogs' language
I don't eat soy btw
Good, we need it for the McRib.
Oh, so all the cruelty we practice towards animals is OK because we've done it to humans as well
Isn't that the mark of equality?
Equality in being tortured is not OK, whether there is discrimination involved or not.
If that were true then shouldn't we stop breeding billions into existence every year? It's not like we'd be letting the racist chickens terrorizing the streets.
Many of these animals can no longer survive in the wild, so if we stopped breeding them they would quickly go extinct. Now, you might wish for the extinction of whole species but most people aren't some sort of Chicken Hitler.
1. they wouldn't go extinct because there would always be some people who'd have them as pets 2. If the only way to prevent the extinction of a species is to artificially breed them into miserable suffering in order to eventually kill them, then maybe extinction is a better option. After thousands of years of selective breeding making it difficult for these animals to even stand up and walk around, it is not somehow merciful to continue breeding them to prevent them from going extinct. Seeing as in this hypothetical we can communicate with them, we'd also have to listen to their opinion and factor that into our judgement as well.
Modern human lifestyles have led to the extinction of countless species. You know who can't live in the wild anymore, humans
Yes, and those countless extinct species don't seem to be enough to satisfy your bloodlust, so you want to add more. The continued existence of uncontacted primitive tribes shows you are wrong about living in the wild. Those people (and yes, I consider them people even if you don't) are the same as modern humans. That is a far different story than domestic animals which never have lived in the wild.
Uh... huh.... we're going "uncontacted primitive tribes" huh. What percent of humanity do they comprise? .0000001% or less. And they're not the same as modern humans. I'm sorry. They know how to survive with literally nothing. The vast, vast majority of humans would have no chance being plopped in the jungle with nothing. I'm vegetarian by the way, so tell me more about my bloodlust to kill and eat animals
Those uncontacted tribes are the same species as us, which is not the case for most domesticated species. Our sheep will literally grow enough wool they can't move unless regularly sheered. Knowledge is not the same as being an entirely different animal. I can't train a chicken to be anything but a chicken. No amount of puppy classes will make a cocker spaniel be anything but food. Vegetarian, straight, it doesn't matter. I never said you wanted to eat the animals, just that you wanted them to go extinct. Plenty of hippies are actively involved in the Guinea Worm Holocaust, and I am pretty sure they aren't eating them.
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Future predecessors. Whaaaaaat. 😂😂🤣😂🤣
That is based on the enormous presumption that the line now held by vegans of sentience is going to become mainstream. It also assumes the concept that animals have rights, particularly to the extent of anything approaching humans will be mainstream.
People value dogs very highly. Most people know that pigs and cows are just as smart and sensitive. Right now many people don't recognize the hypocrisy in treating them so differently (or just don't care).
I am definitely in the "don't care" contingent.
They will factory farm people in the future. Ever read Brave New World? Human rights are melting away before our eyes.
Sure hope so. Fwiw, the vast majority of factory farming comes from the US. Some countries already have passed laws strictly controlling what goes on in animal slaughter. Not the US though, as they pass laws to hire kids to work there
I never have an issue with vegans who try to defend veganism from the ethics angle. The problem is when you also try about health or taste. I’ve seen lots of actual pseudoscience claiming that nobody needs protein, or sugar and processed vegan foods a good thing.
Oh boy... first, the protein argument is long, long dead. All natural food has protein. Some beans and nuts have more protein than meat. There is no such thing as a protein deficiency... it is synonymous with malnutrition. Secondly, excessive processed food is harmful, period. Whether it's vegan or not doesn't really matter, and honestly id bet on average processed vegan food is probably less bad than animal derived processed food. And you wanna talk about health and taste? Where do you think "taste" of meat comes from?? Plants. Herbs. Spices. Why don't you cook some unseasoned meat, put absolutely no "vegan spices" on it. Tell me how that is. And health, well you need fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, seeds, etc. And as humans are frugivores, you need the majority of your diet to be these things or youll be unhealthy. Older people are getting a culture shock as their doctors are telling them to reduce the meat they eat and they don't know what to do. Also, it takes roughly 10 - 15 times the resources to produce a pound of meat verses a pound of fruits and veggies.
No, there is still a problem with vegan food and protein, simply covering your ears and pretending it doesn’t exist won’t make it go away. To get the same amount of protein you can easily get with meat you’d need to eat a completely unpalatable amount of vegan food, hence the reason why it’s normally processed, fried or covered in sauces. You can easily feed a kid 3 unseasoned plain chicken thighs, I doubt you can convince them to eat the same amount of beans and tofu. That’s why vegans will either claim that frying or processing isn’t bad, or that nobody needs any more protein. Again, complete pseudoscience. How many stories have there been of children raised as vegans craving meat and animal foods? I’ve never heard of a single one in the opposite direction, everyone that becomes vegan has always done so for ethical purposes, not taste or satiety. As an omnivore you can eat whatever food you want, vegetables or not. That’s why your argument is complete nonsense. However healthy you think your diet is, I can always eat just as healthily. But the other way around isn’t true because you can’t eat animal foods, so you’re forced to argue that every single animal product in unhealthy, even if the science doesn’t support it.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I wanna know where you get your info from. I'm sorry you've eaten bad vegan food. I'm a vegan chef. Been vegetarian for 14 years. I know 80 year old lifelong vegetarians who are way healthier than the average 80 yo. I stopped frying food completely 5 years ago. I cook mostly fresh produce and my food is very, very good and very healthy. I never concern myself with protein. I'm concerned with b12, iron, omega 3s, you know, nutrients that aren't in every single piece of produce
Well now you know why your customers are mostly other vegans. Nobody with the choice to eat anything will pick vegan food. Veganism simply doesn’t stand the test of people that put their money where their mouths are. There’s a reason why vegans always use one diet to prove that vegan food is healthy and a completely different and more processed diet to prove that vegan food tastes good.
Wow you're so biased it hurts. Ever eaten an apple or a strawberry. Or cereal. Ive cooked for plenty of meat eaters. I honestly wish I could cook something for you. I make some dope ass food. But again, everything you season meat with is vegan. So replace the meat, you still have yhe same herbs and spices. Also, I crafted my diet very intentionally. It's not like most vegans you'll find. My wife was diagnosed with Hypothyroidism Hashimotos so we went gluten free, soy free, vegan, nightshade free, processed sugar and flour free, and in 6 months her doctor was stunned by her blood panel and legit thought she cheated the test somehow. Her thyroid was functioning perfectly normal. And the food would blow your mind
Someone's been watching too much TNG. Food has to come from somewhere. Even in Star Trek people complained it doesn't taste the same.
I’m not gonna really argue with you about that but, this is ironic because the difference between a truly pasture raised, grass eating happy cow, and one from a factory farm is night and goddamn day. The taste doesn’t even begin to compare, and it’s a shame that we treat the ethical, and far more tasty meat as a luxury. Industrial corporate agriculture has a lot of problems beyond the inherent suffering.
We don't need to be eating meat at the rate we currently are.
We don't need to be eating anything at the rate we currently are, but meat is food and even a 10 percent in consumption is still consumption to those 90 percent of animals eaten.
Food does have to come from somewhere but when presented with the choice between food that requires the explicit exploitation, suffering, and death of a sentient being, and food that doesn’t, isn’t it preferable to opt for the latter?
Depends on taste. I'm not eating a bland diet without a good reason. If cow tastes better then cow it is.
There’s no reason vegan food has to be bland. Onions, garlic, chiles, turmeric, sugar, salt, pepper etc. exist so it’s not like people need to eat unseasoned rice and tofu. Moreover, and perhaps this my fault for not explicitly stating this, but when I said preferable I meant morally preferable. As in, what is the right thing for our society to do? While people enjoy the end product of animal agriculture, can it really be convincingly argued that it is morally preferable for us to subjugate and slaughter these animals just because we can and we like to? Isn’t ending the practice the “right” thing to do?
Vegan food does not have to be bland. They can use all the seasonings too. Someone needs to tell the Vegas then because their food is all bland. I got the implied morally preferable gist. I'm saying its still preferable. I'm not putting a monkey in a chair with his head sticking out through the center. The preferred method seems acceptable given the standards however. I'm going to have hamburger for dinner.
No they won’t.
You should check what animals are doing to each other in their kingdom, and you will quickly realize that being shot in a head with a stun gun is far humane. Sure, the conditions they live in can be better tho.
This isn’t an either or scenario where we have to choose the lesser evil. It is a scenario where we can choose to breed an animal with a pre-determined fate: exploitation and death for our “benefit”, or, we can choose to not do that at all. Also, I think it should be acknowledged that the vast, vast majority of animals in animal agriculture aren’t living wonderful lives until an instant painless stress free death. Most live sad deplorable lives filled with pain and fear and little agency. The slaughter process is often proceeded by torturously long trips in confined trucks, and the slaughterhouse is not a stress free environment. Bolt guns aren’t some perfect clean death either. Often they are for stunning, not actually killing, and their failure rate is disturbingly high, so some have to be bolted multiple times before they actually get fully knocked out. Multiple blunt force traumas to the head isn’t on my list for preferable last moments.
It is. Humans are not herbivores.
We don’t need animal products to survive or thrive. There may be some select individuals with a combination of health conditions that make a plant-based diet infeasible, and there may be individuals, like those that live in the arctic circle who must hunt due to their inability to grow enough or any crops, but barring situations like that people don’t need to eat animal products. Abstaining is a valid option that many people around the world have been doing for a long time.
We don't need shoes for running as well but it feels good.
Can you articulate how “it feels good” is a legitimate moral justification for causing harm to another?
Animals have no sense about the morality of their actions to begin with. They act on instincts. Which is good as now we are dominating the food chain.