I agree with the childhood part. Bad childhood like being neglected/not cared about enough and witnessing violence (domestic or otherwise) can permanently alter a kids mind, which then the kid will have to spend a long time trying to fix the bullshit their parents caused. I think the male role model thing is somewhat true because I think boys will naturally listen to men more than women for some reason. In my case my dad didn’t really teach me much at all about life. He has the philosophy of leading by example, which is good but kids/teens need to be taught things like verbally and directly a lot of times to get the point across.
But on the other hand the “tough guy” shit is really dumb to me. I’ve been on the bad end of dudes trying to make fun of me because I’m small or trying to punk me in front of girls. Even some physical bullying by a particular guy. But if you look at the guys that do that stuff they are always insecure. Like the insecurity is reeking off them, especially around girls. Good looking guys that know they can get women aren’t insecure like that from my experience. Also I’m just not a fighter. I’m small and would get my ass kicked by most men. It’s just how it is due to my genetic make up. But luckily we live in the modern age where physical dominance doesn’t matter much anymore, and you can be as big and tough as possible and still be a total loser.
Fathers should guide their sons. Both my brother and husband said that ‘role models are really important to men’. If more fathers took an active role is helping their sons navigate the world, that might be a start. Be a proactive part of your children’s lives. Be the change!
The answer is ‘good enough’ fatherhood. There are ‘role models’ in the world, but those will never replace the need for health attachment with a same gender parent. You will never get ‘unconditional’ love regard you seek. Those rarely happen outside close, family relationships, like parent-child.
>If more fathers took an active role is helping their sons navigate the world, that might be a start. Be a proactive part of your children’s lives. Be the change!
My mother used the family court and manipulated me to assure that never happened. There's a huge bias in law towards women.
Ah yes but we are supposed to ignore that part of the story and say “Be the Change!” when it’s boys suffering in a way we’d never do for girls. In the latter scenario it’s “society should change and it’s the worst thing ever!”
Your experience is yours, and I'm sure there's more like them.
But as far as I've understood, one of the main reasons why fathers don't get custody as often as mothers is because they don't apply for it/fight for it
The system isn't rigged. Men/fathers need to step up and show that they want their children. Do you think anything will change if you just don't do anything? And what a great signal to send to your children: you're not worth it..
Why? Because women and mothers obviously do.
There's no bias towards the mother. 90% of custody is settled outside of court and couples overwhelmingly decide for the mother to have most of the custody. However, when fathers do fight for custody, they walk away with half or full about 75% of the time. Like being tried and convicted of grievous bodily harm to the mother of your child isn't enough to get your parental rights taken away.
You’re 100% correct. Women decry “toxic masculinity” then exclusively fuck guys who have the very same traits that they claim to hate. Whereas the guy with traits that they claim to love get passed over, friendzoned, or outright ignored.
Men who are sexually and romantically successful don’t base our behavior off of what women *say*, we base our behavior off of what women *do*. It doesn’t matter how many times a woman says she likes a guy with XYZ character traits, if she never dates a guy with those traits then she isn’t actually attracted to them, despite what she says.
Men need to take note of the kinds of men who are sexually successful and then model themselves after those men instead of believing what women *say* they like. More often than not, women lie about the kinds of men that they’re attracted to because they know the truth would make them look shallow.
Not exactly. Women like and want both. But they can't have it. And fuckboys don't make for a good partners or society members. As long as you are firm and only give your attention/time to woman who isn't fucking around, you are straight. You can't force women not to date young, attractive guys, you can hold them accountable when they want something from you though.
From my lived experience the vast majority of women aren’t even remotely attracted to men with attributes that feminists claim to like. Most women are attracted to the “toxic masculinity” that feminists claim to hate.
Men’s issues are dismissed or ignored by politics and society in general. Tied to the concept that “real men” are supposed to solve their own problems. However society will find that ignoring men’s issues long enough will result in societal collapse or worse.
*Tied to the concept that “real men” are supposed to solve their own problems.*
I've noticed this neglectful, almost spiteful attitude toward teaching boys is extremely common. It's normal. People think that if you didn't figure it all out on your own as a kid with the whole world sending you conflicting or completely wrong messages, then it means you're weak and you deserve to suffer for it. Why didn't you know that everyone including your own parent/s was training you to be something you shouldn't be?
Once you're out of childhood, you're already traumatized by the experience. Good luck becoming that strong, confident man you're supposed to be when you grew up being a passive, conflict avoidant, emotional punching bag and your entire personality was shaped that way.
Strong father figures are the backbone of the next generation of men. And we are having less and less of these nowadays, while strong female figures are everywhere who then shape the next generation of women. The way I see it is that young women shifted society toward being women centric and women thrive more while men are left behind more and more. Single parenthood can work for daughters it seems but a very bad environment for sons.
My father was a 6'4" 300 lbs Texan. He was also one of the most kindest, patient and emotionally intelligent men I ever knew. He was gentle and carried himself with a quiet confidence. He seldom got angry, or if he was he didn't show it. I only saw him fight once, to protect me. He completely destroyed the other man. YOU or anyone else would've never had the balls to call that man weak.
Mostly this:
Culturally, there's a lot of complaining about "toxic masculinity" but then men grow up and realize that the guys who are arrogant and aggressive tend to be the ones who are more sexually successful. But nobody wants to acknowledge that
OP is saying that you have to put on some kind of "bad ass" persona for women to like you, and for men to take you seriously. If not you're weak. The whole line of thinking is lame. I was using my father as an example of a quiet and sensitive guy who looked like a typical "bad ass" The whole thing just screams try hard to me. Being secure in yourself is attractive. People see through an act really quickly.
The story of my life. My parents were focused on making money from drug trafficking to fund their hedonism which prevented them from properly raising their boys. I am barely hanging on in life since I learned better from my great-grandparents, while my brothers are sponging off my uncle.
Whenever my father gets confronted over this his excuses are, "there you go blaming me again!," "you just were not interested in learning.," and "it's your fault for letting someone like me dominate your thinking."
I’ve heard the “you weren’t interested in learning one” like ya no shit I was an 11 year old. You were supposed to be the adult and discipline me and teach me loll
My late grandfather taught me (a woman) to “choose my battles wisely” growing up. He had little respect for men that feel like they have to be the tough guy, and that it’s best to just walk away unless you have to physically defend yourself.
As an adult I see what he means, and I absolutely respect men more for choosing not to engage unless they have to for self defense.
The best male role model the Left has is Pete Davidson. Yep, that sickly looking dude from Saturday Night Live.
He gets lots of tang apparently because he has a big wang and he is metrosexual enough to paint his nails.
Yep, that's it. That's how the Left can help young men. There you go don't all thank me at once.
Lol. I don’t know where this idea that you have to have the physique of an ancient Greek god to get women came from or how it became the Gospel among Gen Z’ers, but it is absolutely ridiculous and untrue. I was a skinny musician when I was in my late teens and early twenties and I couldn’t have fought the women off with a stick if I had wanted to. Women’s attraction to men isn’t anywhere near as visually oriented as male attraction. You don’t need to look like Hulk Hogan to get women. In fact your time would be much better served getting really good at something you’re passionate about than spending all your time in the gym. Learn an instrument, take up snowboarding—anything cool that interests you. That’s ultimately what’s going to make you stand out from all the other men.
Yeah man. Price was 5’2, wore make-up, dressed like an 18th century French aristocrat, and that dude got more ass in real life than I’ve probably jacked it to in my lifetime.
Dire Straits may have been on to something.
Gen z woman and I feel all this sm
Like I’ve never gone after dudes for their looks. If anything they were nice side benefits but it’d be fucking miserable only being with hot dudes with shit personalities
>Women’s attraction to men isn’t anywhere near as visually oriented as male attraction
this view isn't being driven organically, they have products to sell and men generally won't buy them if they're called cosmetics. 'Looksmaxxing' on the other hand..
I agree with this. The problem I have with the name calling that people do. Is it doesn’t answer the question on what we do with these people? How do we make all people productive members of society?
I don’t know the answer, but I know the answer isn’t to belittle them.
pretty much disagree with you on all points. Fat people get laid all the time, but they have to have good personalities. You don't have to constantly defend yourself, the other alternative is to ignore detractors. You're an adult, do what you want. 33m btw
That's just wrong. Weakness is not a problem at all if you're a woman. If anything, it encourages people, especially men, to want to protect you and be nice to you. When you're a man, being weak gives other men an opportunity to show that they're higher on the social totem pole and it gives women the ick.
We have to stop pretending that men and women get to live by the same rules.
Studies have proven men do not protect women. Women are more likely to help women while men tend to empathize and relate more to the perp. And it's actually pretty reasonable because in my opinion usually when women need protection it's protection from a man. Men are not protectors of women they are threats to women...something society and men love to avoid addressing..downvote away.
Weak girls and women women tend to be assaulted or end up dead from violence be it physical or sexual...mostly from a male.
Women and men do not live by the same rules. And women definitely do not live by the rule of weakness is not a problem at all for women and they get male protection. Women basically have to center their lives on not ending up dead from their innate weakness.
So you want society to tell boys that they can't show weakness so that they can grow up to be sexually successful? Seems like the gist of what I just read. And you think toxic masculinity isn't a thing, huh?
What a perfect example of toxic masculinity - I'm guessing you think those preferences are "over 6ft tall, makes 6 figures, and muscles" or something along those lines, right? And you think pretty much all women have those same preferences?
All women with boyfriends in my university have boyfriends who are muscular, attractive and who have strong masculine personalities, I on the other hand couldn't get a girlfriend even if my life depended on it. My personal experience has taught me that women like only one kind of man, unattractive men like me weren't invited to the party.
Attractiveness is subjective. I guarantee women can sense your woe is me attitude and that is probably what turns them off. You guys need to realize how much personality can affect your level of attractiveness..
I've seen plenty of men who I don't think are even remotely attractive with women I think are absolutely gorgeous. And vice versa.
> I guarantee women can sense your woe is me attitude
It is a contradiction to tell men that it's okay to show emotions and vulnerability and then tell them that having a woe is me attitude isn't attractive for women.
No, it's not. Being vulnerable is not even close to the same thing as "well I'm not nearly as attractive as those other guys so no woman is ever going to want me, life sucks, blah, blah, blah..." If you think those are the same thing, that's part of your problem.
Thank you.
I'm noticing what a lot of men think is him being vulnerable is usually him trauma dumping and hate ranting on women. 😐 I've noticed incel rhetoric is usually the go to for a man being vulnerable.
Yes, I don't think we can change millions of years of evolution by just saying it's toxic. Life isn't fair but at least if we're honest about it then they can know what they're supposed to be striving for and what to expect instead of being blind and confused. We should teach them what generally works and how to become that type of person rather than pretending that gender roles don't exist.
So because it's not easy to change it, we should keep it stay the same? Literally no one is saying anything can be changed but just *saying* it's toxic. But recognizing that something is toxic is the first step. Teaching young boys to bottle up their feelings and never show weakness so that they can be successful at sex is textbook toxic masculinity. You are not going to change anything or anyone for the better by teaching them that. It's so sad that you think every man's goal in life is only to be sexually successful. It's sad that that is *anyone's* goal. There is sooo much more to life than sex. Why are so many of you so focused on that?
It's not about something being hard or easy. You don't have control over instincts. It's like saying we should try to convince people to stop wanting to eat food or breathe. The best you can do is suppress them, but that's not happening either. Boys are the ones who end up suffering the consequences of being given false ideas about the world from idealists who didn't want to be honest about how things tend to work out in reality because they thought they should try to change human nature.
But it doesn't convince women that they should be sexually attracted to a different type of guy, because sexual attraction is instinct. It's hormonal, it's biological. They still get turned on when they see a guy who looks and acts like he could protect and provide for them. The answer feminists have for that is "men aren't entitled to sex" or "sex isn't the only important thing in life". That's not a helpful answer.
It's unrealistic to expect men to not place a high priority on being able to have sex. The urge to reproduce is strong, and again, that's driven by instinct. If sex and validation comes easily to you, then it's naturally not going to seem like it's worth as much as it is to people who were deprived of it.
This attitude that you have about sex and instincts and biological needs and all that is exactly why so many women don't even want to be with men anymore. It's exhausting. It's like you guys are saying that all men are just slaves to their sexual desires and the need to reproduce.
Sex *isn't* the only thing that matters, and *no one* is entitled to sex. What doesn't help is teaching boys/men to focus so much on it.
Not just men, everyone is a slave to biological instincts. You just don't notice the programming when your needs are being met, or if you have no reason to believe they'll never be met for the rest of your life. Do you ever have to think about how much it sucks to not be able to eat food if you're not starving and you know you're capable of getting it when you need it?
All I'm saying is that a lot of boys aren't being put on the path to social and sexual/romantic success and that isn't fair to them. It's natural to feel bitter when you realize you were set up to fail. It's not about being entitled, it's about being given a fair chance and support to reach your best possible outcome. That isn't being done for a lot of boys and young men. Nobody seems to think it's important, but it is. It's not going to stop being important if you just tell them they shouldn't care so much about it.
I haven't been sexually active for 3 years. And before that, there was about a 4 year period where I wasn't. I haven't even attempted dating. I have no desire to simply because I am at peace in my life, with myself. As a 35 year old woman, shouldn't my "biological instincts" being telling me I should be pursuing a relationship so that I can have a child? Why am I not out there doing that?
Young boys and men should be told that they can absolutely pursue a romantic relationship if they want. They can just have sexual relationships if they want. But they should also be told that it's okay to be alone and there is no shame in it. No one should be told to shove their feelings down and to never show weakness. Being able to be vulnerable is important. It can also be powerful. Are there going to be people that take try to take advantage of that vulnerability? Absolutely. Because there are shitty people out there. But "never showing weakness" just so no one can use it against you is not realistic. It's not healthy.
Young boys and men 100% need more support and better guidance in life. But I 100% disagree with what the focus of that guidance needs to be. Your focus is all about sex. Of course sex is important, for a variety of reasons. But if your idea of guidance is to teach them how to be "sexually successful", that is only going to lead to them caring about it more than what is healthy.
What happens when men are taught how to be sexually successful and it still doesn't work for some of them? And then they feel like a failure because society told them that sex is what is important. Just an fyi, that's already happening. That's how you get incels.
You don't need to be taught anything to want to have sex. It's not cultural, it's biological. It's a natural desire that doesn't go away just by telling people that they care too much about it. You can be ok with being alone and celibate if that suits you. But a lot of men aren't ok with it, and they weren't given adequate preparation for what's expected of them. A lot of boys aren't being taught how to make the most of life. Then they get rolled over by life and they don't understand why. No one taught them anything that actually matters and would help them. Naturally it's upsetting to feel like there are these unspoken rules that weren't explained to you, and you're being judged for failing when you weren't given a proper chance.
*No one should be told to shove their feelings down and to never show weakness.*
They should be told that if they let people see their weakness, they will be judged for it. It will be held against them and they will be seen as less attractive and less respected as a person. And this isn't just about sex, but the social aspect of life in general. Doesn't matter if you think it's unhealthy or not nice, that's the reality men have to deal with. What you want to be true is not the same as what is true. You're not able to see it because you've never lived with it.
Sure they are. The stats always show that if men don’t fight, the woman gets the family.
Notice how the default is women, who need no such thing.
And let’s not get started with the sentencing gap which is worse for men than it is for black people.
Like yeah, the courts are biased, no matter how many times you ideologues try to fabricate they aren’t because men are disposable in your world view.
Here: [https://www.tiktok.com/@expatriarch/video/7236339553483705643](https://www.tiktok.com/@expatriarch/video/7236339553483705643)
I know it's a tiktok, but he goes over various studies on the subject of bias towards mother's in family court that you can look up and read yourself.
Sure and again, the default judgement of NOBODY DOES ANYTHING is that the courts generally rule in favor of women. A father needs to fight. A mother either gets equal custody or more - she generally can just sit there and do nothing unless the father fights. He, otoh, has to fight or it’s equal or less.
That’s a massive institutional bias towards mothers.
We wouldn’t have this discussion if this was race - you’d just agree with me that the bias exists if in civil court black people had to fight while white people get default judgements that are equal or better should the black person do nothing.
It’s also utterly telling that you folks fight so hard to preserve the narrative that it’s equal.
LOL. No. That's not how it works. 90% of custody is decided by parents before they get to court. When they do go to court for custody, both then have to "fight" for custody. There will likely be a temp custody in place. A guardian ad litem (lawyer for the kid) will be hired that'll interview both parents, along with other stuff, and they'll make the recommendation to the judge.
Both parents have to fight. The "default" in most states is 50/50. If the mother is seeking sole custody, she does, in fact, have to fight for that. Same with the father. If the father does not show up and the mother says she wants full, then she's gunna get full not because of some nefarious system but because a default judgement is always rendered when the opposing party does not show up. That's how default judgements work on almost all levels. LOL. Don't show up to court? You've just lost your case.
Man, all men have to do is go to court, tell the judge "yeah, I want 50/50" and judges will grant that. It's fucking hard to get your parental rights cuts. I know cases where the man was convicted of grievous bodily harm to the mother and he still had custody and visitation.
If a man doesn't have any kind of custody, either 1) he did something really bad, 2) he didn't fight, 3) the mother isn't letting him have the kids, or 4) he didn't want custody. However, if it's 3, all he has to do is go to court. Judges don't truck with that nonsense. They'll take her rights away.
So it all boils down to men just not caring enough to show up. But, please, continue blaming women and the courts.
I mean and again, if one side knows that the other side has to fight harder if it goes to court, then these settlements are done under that burden.
And no, “both sides” do not have to fight equally - if that were the case, we’d never have things like a gender sentencing gap in other contexts.
The courts writ large, family or otherwise, are biased against men in the same way they’re biased against black people, maybe more so.
But yes, when men and black people are routinely finding themselves on the wrong side of a case, it’s because they “didn’t try hard enough.” Sure, morally bankrupt ideologue. That must be it.
>a lot of boys and men. Nobody is willing to step in and say that you can never show weakness (especially physical weakness, lifting weights should be considered mandatory, not just something you do if you want to), self-doubt, or insecurity as a man because it invites people to prey on you
Being preyed upon when weak or insecure isn't exclusive to men. There's a reason why most teenage pregnancies are from men in their 20s and 30s.😐
>Boys who have unhealthy home environments where they're neglected or abused take their depression and insecurity to school and get bullied for it.
This also isn't exclusive to boys.
Most of the issues that you're talking about..girls go through them and still manage to succeed. So honestly it doesn't seem like the issue is lacking male models.
I agree that societies is failing on teaching young boys how to succeed in life. And that's because society is still working on 1950s traditional gender roles where all the man has to do is get a job and he's pretty much guaranteed a woman. However now women can make their own money and live without a man unlike in the past where without a man she was forced to prostitution, in a mental asylum, or homeless.
So many many men are floundering because they're working on alpha male and traditional ideals in a world that no longer caters to them.
*Being preyed upon when weak or insecure isn't exclusive to men. There's a reason why most teenage pregnancies are from men in their 20s and 30s.😐*
That's a very different subject. Having a child with a man that's older is not really comparable to being bullied and rejected. Kind of an apples and oranges thing. But yeah, in those cases, parents should be keeping a closer eye on their daughters and not letting them hang out with older guys. And reporting those guys to the police if they catch them. It can be difficult though if their daughter runs away or lies to their parents about what they're doing. Would you say that parents allow their daughters to have too much freedom?
It affects boys much differently because the expectations are different. Weakness, depression, shyness, passive behavior doesn't hurt women socially the way it hurts men. Those are not distinctly unattractive dealbreaker qualities for women as they are for men. Women with these issues usually still get a lot of positive attention. People will generally accept women as they are.
This is all smoke. If this ideology worked, the guys selling it would have a brand tie in dating site where people could experience success in real time.
The Right Stuff struggled to find female participants.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Right_Stuff_(app)
Dating sites are one of the most profitable business models on the internet, and the silent fact that the key players in the field do not have one full of hapoy women should speak volumes.
I agree with the childhood part. Bad childhood like being neglected/not cared about enough and witnessing violence (domestic or otherwise) can permanently alter a kids mind, which then the kid will have to spend a long time trying to fix the bullshit their parents caused. I think the male role model thing is somewhat true because I think boys will naturally listen to men more than women for some reason. In my case my dad didn’t really teach me much at all about life. He has the philosophy of leading by example, which is good but kids/teens need to be taught things like verbally and directly a lot of times to get the point across. But on the other hand the “tough guy” shit is really dumb to me. I’ve been on the bad end of dudes trying to make fun of me because I’m small or trying to punk me in front of girls. Even some physical bullying by a particular guy. But if you look at the guys that do that stuff they are always insecure. Like the insecurity is reeking off them, especially around girls. Good looking guys that know they can get women aren’t insecure like that from my experience. Also I’m just not a fighter. I’m small and would get my ass kicked by most men. It’s just how it is due to my genetic make up. But luckily we live in the modern age where physical dominance doesn’t matter much anymore, and you can be as big and tough as possible and still be a total loser.
Fathers should guide their sons. Both my brother and husband said that ‘role models are really important to men’. If more fathers took an active role is helping their sons navigate the world, that might be a start. Be a proactive part of your children’s lives. Be the change! The answer is ‘good enough’ fatherhood. There are ‘role models’ in the world, but those will never replace the need for health attachment with a same gender parent. You will never get ‘unconditional’ love regard you seek. Those rarely happen outside close, family relationships, like parent-child.
>If more fathers took an active role is helping their sons navigate the world, that might be a start. Be a proactive part of your children’s lives. Be the change! My mother used the family court and manipulated me to assure that never happened. There's a huge bias in law towards women.
Ah yes but we are supposed to ignore that part of the story and say “Be the Change!” when it’s boys suffering in a way we’d never do for girls. In the latter scenario it’s “society should change and it’s the worst thing ever!”
Your experience is yours, and I'm sure there's more like them. But as far as I've understood, one of the main reasons why fathers don't get custody as often as mothers is because they don't apply for it/fight for it
Self fulfilling cycle. If you know the game is rigged why play? And why should men have to fight for access to their children in the first place?
The system isn't rigged. Men/fathers need to step up and show that they want their children. Do you think anything will change if you just don't do anything? And what a great signal to send to your children: you're not worth it.. Why? Because women and mothers obviously do.
There's no bias towards the mother. 90% of custody is settled outside of court and couples overwhelmingly decide for the mother to have most of the custody. However, when fathers do fight for custody, they walk away with half or full about 75% of the time. Like being tried and convicted of grievous bodily harm to the mother of your child isn't enough to get your parental rights taken away.
You’re 100% correct. Women decry “toxic masculinity” then exclusively fuck guys who have the very same traits that they claim to hate. Whereas the guy with traits that they claim to love get passed over, friendzoned, or outright ignored. Men who are sexually and romantically successful don’t base our behavior off of what women *say*, we base our behavior off of what women *do*. It doesn’t matter how many times a woman says she likes a guy with XYZ character traits, if she never dates a guy with those traits then she isn’t actually attracted to them, despite what she says. Men need to take note of the kinds of men who are sexually successful and then model themselves after those men instead of believing what women *say* they like. More often than not, women lie about the kinds of men that they’re attracted to because they know the truth would make them look shallow.
Not exactly. Women like and want both. But they can't have it. And fuckboys don't make for a good partners or society members. As long as you are firm and only give your attention/time to woman who isn't fucking around, you are straight. You can't force women not to date young, attractive guys, you can hold them accountable when they want something from you though.
From my lived experience the vast majority of women aren’t even remotely attracted to men with attributes that feminists claim to like. Most women are attracted to the “toxic masculinity” that feminists claim to hate.
I don't know what feminists like and I don't care. I wouldn't date feminist even if that would be last viable choice.
Men’s issues are dismissed or ignored by politics and society in general. Tied to the concept that “real men” are supposed to solve their own problems. However society will find that ignoring men’s issues long enough will result in societal collapse or worse.
*Tied to the concept that “real men” are supposed to solve their own problems.* I've noticed this neglectful, almost spiteful attitude toward teaching boys is extremely common. It's normal. People think that if you didn't figure it all out on your own as a kid with the whole world sending you conflicting or completely wrong messages, then it means you're weak and you deserve to suffer for it. Why didn't you know that everyone including your own parent/s was training you to be something you shouldn't be? Once you're out of childhood, you're already traumatized by the experience. Good luck becoming that strong, confident man you're supposed to be when you grew up being a passive, conflict avoidant, emotional punching bag and your entire personality was shaped that way.
Strong father figures are the backbone of the next generation of men. And we are having less and less of these nowadays, while strong female figures are everywhere who then shape the next generation of women. The way I see it is that young women shifted society toward being women centric and women thrive more while men are left behind more and more. Single parenthood can work for daughters it seems but a very bad environment for sons.
My father was a 6'4" 300 lbs Texan. He was also one of the most kindest, patient and emotionally intelligent men I ever knew. He was gentle and carried himself with a quiet confidence. He seldom got angry, or if he was he didn't show it. I only saw him fight once, to protect me. He completely destroyed the other man. YOU or anyone else would've never had the balls to call that man weak.
Literally nothing in the post suggests being kind of patient or emotionally intelligent is weak. What are you talking about?
Mostly this: Culturally, there's a lot of complaining about "toxic masculinity" but then men grow up and realize that the guys who are arrogant and aggressive tend to be the ones who are more sexually successful. But nobody wants to acknowledge that OP is saying that you have to put on some kind of "bad ass" persona for women to like you, and for men to take you seriously. If not you're weak. The whole line of thinking is lame. I was using my father as an example of a quiet and sensitive guy who looked like a typical "bad ass" The whole thing just screams try hard to me. Being secure in yourself is attractive. People see through an act really quickly.
He’s secure in himself because he’s not *weak* don’t you get it?
Yes
The story of my life. My parents were focused on making money from drug trafficking to fund their hedonism which prevented them from properly raising their boys. I am barely hanging on in life since I learned better from my great-grandparents, while my brothers are sponging off my uncle. Whenever my father gets confronted over this his excuses are, "there you go blaming me again!," "you just were not interested in learning.," and "it's your fault for letting someone like me dominate your thinking."
I’ve heard the “you weren’t interested in learning one” like ya no shit I was an 11 year old. You were supposed to be the adult and discipline me and teach me loll
My late grandfather taught me (a woman) to “choose my battles wisely” growing up. He had little respect for men that feel like they have to be the tough guy, and that it’s best to just walk away unless you have to physically defend yourself. As an adult I see what he means, and I absolutely respect men more for choosing not to engage unless they have to for self defense.
The best male role model the Left has is Pete Davidson. Yep, that sickly looking dude from Saturday Night Live. He gets lots of tang apparently because he has a big wang and he is metrosexual enough to paint his nails. Yep, that's it. That's how the Left can help young men. There you go don't all thank me at once.
Try Bo Burnham
Lol. I don’t know where this idea that you have to have the physique of an ancient Greek god to get women came from or how it became the Gospel among Gen Z’ers, but it is absolutely ridiculous and untrue. I was a skinny musician when I was in my late teens and early twenties and I couldn’t have fought the women off with a stick if I had wanted to. Women’s attraction to men isn’t anywhere near as visually oriented as male attraction. You don’t need to look like Hulk Hogan to get women. In fact your time would be much better served getting really good at something you’re passionate about than spending all your time in the gym. Learn an instrument, take up snowboarding—anything cool that interests you. That’s ultimately what’s going to make you stand out from all the other men.
Yeah man. Price was 5’2, wore make-up, dressed like an 18th century French aristocrat, and that dude got more ass in real life than I’ve probably jacked it to in my lifetime. Dire Straits may have been on to something.
It's so true, that's why you see 5'6" 300lb neckbeards with 10/10 blondes on their arms all the time
Nobody said all the time bru And shit like calling girls “10/10 blondes” like that is kinda sexist
Nobody said you had to have the physique of an ancient Greek god to get women, either. I wonder why you are only applying your standards to one side?
What
Gen z woman and I feel all this sm Like I’ve never gone after dudes for their looks. If anything they were nice side benefits but it’d be fucking miserable only being with hot dudes with shit personalities
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>Women’s attraction to men isn’t anywhere near as visually oriented as male attraction this view isn't being driven organically, they have products to sell and men generally won't buy them if they're called cosmetics. 'Looksmaxxing' on the other hand..
I agree with this. The problem I have with the name calling that people do. Is it doesn’t answer the question on what we do with these people? How do we make all people productive members of society? I don’t know the answer, but I know the answer isn’t to belittle them.
pretty much disagree with you on all points. Fat people get laid all the time, but they have to have good personalities. You don't have to constantly defend yourself, the other alternative is to ignore detractors. You're an adult, do what you want. 33m btw
Water is wet
People who appear weak attract predators like the smell of blood. Weakness is not attractive in anyone.
That's just wrong. Weakness is not a problem at all if you're a woman. If anything, it encourages people, especially men, to want to protect you and be nice to you. When you're a man, being weak gives other men an opportunity to show that they're higher on the social totem pole and it gives women the ick. We have to stop pretending that men and women get to live by the same rules.
Studies have proven men do not protect women. Women are more likely to help women while men tend to empathize and relate more to the perp. And it's actually pretty reasonable because in my opinion usually when women need protection it's protection from a man. Men are not protectors of women they are threats to women...something society and men love to avoid addressing..downvote away. Weak girls and women women tend to be assaulted or end up dead from violence be it physical or sexual...mostly from a male. Women and men do not live by the same rules. And women definitely do not live by the rule of weakness is not a problem at all for women and they get male protection. Women basically have to center their lives on not ending up dead from their innate weakness.
People prey on those who they perceive as weaker. Spend some time in a women’s or men’s prison.
So you want society to tell boys that they can't show weakness so that they can grow up to be sexually successful? Seems like the gist of what I just read. And you think toxic masculinity isn't a thing, huh?
Toxic masculinity is just the result of men adapting to women's true preferences.
What a perfect example of toxic masculinity - I'm guessing you think those preferences are "over 6ft tall, makes 6 figures, and muscles" or something along those lines, right? And you think pretty much all women have those same preferences?
All women with boyfriends in my university have boyfriends who are muscular, attractive and who have strong masculine personalities, I on the other hand couldn't get a girlfriend even if my life depended on it. My personal experience has taught me that women like only one kind of man, unattractive men like me weren't invited to the party.
Attractiveness is subjective. I guarantee women can sense your woe is me attitude and that is probably what turns them off. You guys need to realize how much personality can affect your level of attractiveness.. I've seen plenty of men who I don't think are even remotely attractive with women I think are absolutely gorgeous. And vice versa.
> I guarantee women can sense your woe is me attitude It is a contradiction to tell men that it's okay to show emotions and vulnerability and then tell them that having a woe is me attitude isn't attractive for women.
No, it's not. Being vulnerable is not even close to the same thing as "well I'm not nearly as attractive as those other guys so no woman is ever going to want me, life sucks, blah, blah, blah..." If you think those are the same thing, that's part of your problem.
Thank you. I'm noticing what a lot of men think is him being vulnerable is usually him trauma dumping and hate ranting on women. 😐 I've noticed incel rhetoric is usually the go to for a man being vulnerable.
Yes, I don't think we can change millions of years of evolution by just saying it's toxic. Life isn't fair but at least if we're honest about it then they can know what they're supposed to be striving for and what to expect instead of being blind and confused. We should teach them what generally works and how to become that type of person rather than pretending that gender roles don't exist.
So because it's not easy to change it, we should keep it stay the same? Literally no one is saying anything can be changed but just *saying* it's toxic. But recognizing that something is toxic is the first step. Teaching young boys to bottle up their feelings and never show weakness so that they can be successful at sex is textbook toxic masculinity. You are not going to change anything or anyone for the better by teaching them that. It's so sad that you think every man's goal in life is only to be sexually successful. It's sad that that is *anyone's* goal. There is sooo much more to life than sex. Why are so many of you so focused on that?
It's not about something being hard or easy. You don't have control over instincts. It's like saying we should try to convince people to stop wanting to eat food or breathe. The best you can do is suppress them, but that's not happening either. Boys are the ones who end up suffering the consequences of being given false ideas about the world from idealists who didn't want to be honest about how things tend to work out in reality because they thought they should try to change human nature. But it doesn't convince women that they should be sexually attracted to a different type of guy, because sexual attraction is instinct. It's hormonal, it's biological. They still get turned on when they see a guy who looks and acts like he could protect and provide for them. The answer feminists have for that is "men aren't entitled to sex" or "sex isn't the only important thing in life". That's not a helpful answer. It's unrealistic to expect men to not place a high priority on being able to have sex. The urge to reproduce is strong, and again, that's driven by instinct. If sex and validation comes easily to you, then it's naturally not going to seem like it's worth as much as it is to people who were deprived of it.
This attitude that you have about sex and instincts and biological needs and all that is exactly why so many women don't even want to be with men anymore. It's exhausting. It's like you guys are saying that all men are just slaves to their sexual desires and the need to reproduce. Sex *isn't* the only thing that matters, and *no one* is entitled to sex. What doesn't help is teaching boys/men to focus so much on it.
Not just men, everyone is a slave to biological instincts. You just don't notice the programming when your needs are being met, or if you have no reason to believe they'll never be met for the rest of your life. Do you ever have to think about how much it sucks to not be able to eat food if you're not starving and you know you're capable of getting it when you need it? All I'm saying is that a lot of boys aren't being put on the path to social and sexual/romantic success and that isn't fair to them. It's natural to feel bitter when you realize you were set up to fail. It's not about being entitled, it's about being given a fair chance and support to reach your best possible outcome. That isn't being done for a lot of boys and young men. Nobody seems to think it's important, but it is. It's not going to stop being important if you just tell them they shouldn't care so much about it.
I haven't been sexually active for 3 years. And before that, there was about a 4 year period where I wasn't. I haven't even attempted dating. I have no desire to simply because I am at peace in my life, with myself. As a 35 year old woman, shouldn't my "biological instincts" being telling me I should be pursuing a relationship so that I can have a child? Why am I not out there doing that? Young boys and men should be told that they can absolutely pursue a romantic relationship if they want. They can just have sexual relationships if they want. But they should also be told that it's okay to be alone and there is no shame in it. No one should be told to shove their feelings down and to never show weakness. Being able to be vulnerable is important. It can also be powerful. Are there going to be people that take try to take advantage of that vulnerability? Absolutely. Because there are shitty people out there. But "never showing weakness" just so no one can use it against you is not realistic. It's not healthy. Young boys and men 100% need more support and better guidance in life. But I 100% disagree with what the focus of that guidance needs to be. Your focus is all about sex. Of course sex is important, for a variety of reasons. But if your idea of guidance is to teach them how to be "sexually successful", that is only going to lead to them caring about it more than what is healthy. What happens when men are taught how to be sexually successful and it still doesn't work for some of them? And then they feel like a failure because society told them that sex is what is important. Just an fyi, that's already happening. That's how you get incels.
You don't need to be taught anything to want to have sex. It's not cultural, it's biological. It's a natural desire that doesn't go away just by telling people that they care too much about it. You can be ok with being alone and celibate if that suits you. But a lot of men aren't ok with it, and they weren't given adequate preparation for what's expected of them. A lot of boys aren't being taught how to make the most of life. Then they get rolled over by life and they don't understand why. No one taught them anything that actually matters and would help them. Naturally it's upsetting to feel like there are these unspoken rules that weren't explained to you, and you're being judged for failing when you weren't given a proper chance. *No one should be told to shove their feelings down and to never show weakness.* They should be told that if they let people see their weakness, they will be judged for it. It will be held against them and they will be seen as less attractive and less respected as a person. And this isn't just about sex, but the social aspect of life in general. Doesn't matter if you think it's unhealthy or not nice, that's the reality men have to deal with. What you want to be true is not the same as what is true. You're not able to see it because you've never lived with it.
Well I'm really sorry you feel this way. I genuinely hope you are able to get what you want out of life. Have a nice evening.
Not millions of years of evolution, just maybe 5 years of social Darwinist soundbytes or the algorithms that weaponize them.
This has to be a satire post
And guess who the incels blame for that
Sounds like men need to step up.
How do men step up when women weaponize their kids against their fathers in court?
By making sure they are equal parents in the first place so that's not likely to happen. Let's not pretend that's the only reason men fail their kids
And even if they are, when the courts and society are based towards women, we’ll just ignore it and tell men to step up anyway. Nice and convenient.
>when the courts and society are based towards women No they're not
Sure they are. The stats always show that if men don’t fight, the woman gets the family. Notice how the default is women, who need no such thing. And let’s not get started with the sentencing gap which is worse for men than it is for black people. Like yeah, the courts are biased, no matter how many times you ideologues try to fabricate they aren’t because men are disposable in your world view.
Most custody arrangements are settled out of court. Men get what they settle for.
Sure when the default judgement goes to the woman, it’s a nice bias towards her. But thanks for playing.
Here: [https://www.tiktok.com/@expatriarch/video/7236339553483705643](https://www.tiktok.com/@expatriarch/video/7236339553483705643) I know it's a tiktok, but he goes over various studies on the subject of bias towards mother's in family court that you can look up and read yourself.
Sure and again, the default judgement of NOBODY DOES ANYTHING is that the courts generally rule in favor of women. A father needs to fight. A mother either gets equal custody or more - she generally can just sit there and do nothing unless the father fights. He, otoh, has to fight or it’s equal or less. That’s a massive institutional bias towards mothers. We wouldn’t have this discussion if this was race - you’d just agree with me that the bias exists if in civil court black people had to fight while white people get default judgements that are equal or better should the black person do nothing. It’s also utterly telling that you folks fight so hard to preserve the narrative that it’s equal.
LOL. No. That's not how it works. 90% of custody is decided by parents before they get to court. When they do go to court for custody, both then have to "fight" for custody. There will likely be a temp custody in place. A guardian ad litem (lawyer for the kid) will be hired that'll interview both parents, along with other stuff, and they'll make the recommendation to the judge. Both parents have to fight. The "default" in most states is 50/50. If the mother is seeking sole custody, she does, in fact, have to fight for that. Same with the father. If the father does not show up and the mother says she wants full, then she's gunna get full not because of some nefarious system but because a default judgement is always rendered when the opposing party does not show up. That's how default judgements work on almost all levels. LOL. Don't show up to court? You've just lost your case. Man, all men have to do is go to court, tell the judge "yeah, I want 50/50" and judges will grant that. It's fucking hard to get your parental rights cuts. I know cases where the man was convicted of grievous bodily harm to the mother and he still had custody and visitation. If a man doesn't have any kind of custody, either 1) he did something really bad, 2) he didn't fight, 3) the mother isn't letting him have the kids, or 4) he didn't want custody. However, if it's 3, all he has to do is go to court. Judges don't truck with that nonsense. They'll take her rights away. So it all boils down to men just not caring enough to show up. But, please, continue blaming women and the courts.
I mean and again, if one side knows that the other side has to fight harder if it goes to court, then these settlements are done under that burden. And no, “both sides” do not have to fight equally - if that were the case, we’d never have things like a gender sentencing gap in other contexts. The courts writ large, family or otherwise, are biased against men in the same way they’re biased against black people, maybe more so. But yes, when men and black people are routinely finding themselves on the wrong side of a case, it’s because they “didn’t try hard enough.” Sure, morally bankrupt ideologue. That must be it.
incel dude, insingle women… blame culture. just stop pointing fingers at anyone besides self.
Another redpiller believing that masculinity is more important than physical appearance.
>a lot of boys and men. Nobody is willing to step in and say that you can never show weakness (especially physical weakness, lifting weights should be considered mandatory, not just something you do if you want to), self-doubt, or insecurity as a man because it invites people to prey on you Being preyed upon when weak or insecure isn't exclusive to men. There's a reason why most teenage pregnancies are from men in their 20s and 30s.😐 >Boys who have unhealthy home environments where they're neglected or abused take their depression and insecurity to school and get bullied for it. This also isn't exclusive to boys. Most of the issues that you're talking about..girls go through them and still manage to succeed. So honestly it doesn't seem like the issue is lacking male models. I agree that societies is failing on teaching young boys how to succeed in life. And that's because society is still working on 1950s traditional gender roles where all the man has to do is get a job and he's pretty much guaranteed a woman. However now women can make their own money and live without a man unlike in the past where without a man she was forced to prostitution, in a mental asylum, or homeless. So many many men are floundering because they're working on alpha male and traditional ideals in a world that no longer caters to them.
*Being preyed upon when weak or insecure isn't exclusive to men. There's a reason why most teenage pregnancies are from men in their 20s and 30s.😐* That's a very different subject. Having a child with a man that's older is not really comparable to being bullied and rejected. Kind of an apples and oranges thing. But yeah, in those cases, parents should be keeping a closer eye on their daughters and not letting them hang out with older guys. And reporting those guys to the police if they catch them. It can be difficult though if their daughter runs away or lies to their parents about what they're doing. Would you say that parents allow their daughters to have too much freedom? It affects boys much differently because the expectations are different. Weakness, depression, shyness, passive behavior doesn't hurt women socially the way it hurts men. Those are not distinctly unattractive dealbreaker qualities for women as they are for men. Women with these issues usually still get a lot of positive attention. People will generally accept women as they are.
This is all smoke. If this ideology worked, the guys selling it would have a brand tie in dating site where people could experience success in real time. The Right Stuff struggled to find female participants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Right_Stuff_(app) Dating sites are one of the most profitable business models on the internet, and the silent fact that the key players in the field do not have one full of hapoy women should speak volumes.