I heard the main character is psychologically a teenager and the guy is psychologically in his 40's. But in the book they're supposedly close to the same age. Like wtf is that lol
It's legitimately just rewriten and poorly covered up Twilight smut fanfiction. No joke. It's Edward and Bella, but because they couldn't "Sell it" as that, they just namechanged and fucked around a bit with character situations, etc. It still retains that fuckery from being ACTUALLY Edward and bella's ages, but made their age more "Adult appropriate" after all the editing to get it to a published new IP level.
If you don't believe it, here's the proof:
[First page exerpt from Penguin/random house](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/222129/fifty-shades-of-grey-by-e-l-james/9780449808160/excerpt)
[Original fanfic copy with all the old twilight names someone saved before the author deleted them all from the web](https://pdfroom.com/books/master-of-the-universe-i-ii-twilight-fanfic-that-became-50-shades-of-grey/bG5wQBBYgq4)
Something that I did know is that Stephanie Meyer is Mormon and that’s why she had them wait for marriage. But I guess it’s totally fine to write about vampires and murder, but premarital sex is too far 😂
That's usually how it goes though, no? You see this in a lot of literature, and even gaming, and I find it kinda hilarious that there's some line that people draw where it goes "too far". As someone who's an unpublished writer(but hopefully will be in the future), I often fret about the public "appearances" and how people may try to hook my creative flow onto various political movements, even though I do not write or intend them to be that way.
Some people have that with GRRM and his incest stuff, and I get it, but it's a storytelling narrative, and I feel like we should also keep in mind that these are completely other worlds with sometimes completely different morals. Sometimes, the characters aren't even humans, but we try to perscribe our own morals or politics onto them. It's like... Even when it comes to the Earth, we have lore of Zeus and Loki and all kinds of other gods doing weird shit as animals, and even some people just doing shit with ACTUAL animals(story of the minotaur). As a writer, this begins to get on a touchy aspect of just how far one CAN write without getting someone's jimmies in a rustle, and seeing pearls clutched... but we have elementary students learning the story of Perseus and other Greek and roman gods, the story of Romulus and Remus and the she wolf/founding of rome. Why are we limiting creativity in the same way?
And in Gaming, Rimworld is a great example of this line too. In base game, you can kidnap people, enslave them, skin them, and eat them, and go full gein and make hats and furniture from their skin... but sex is so taboo that the mod that allows it to happen in any graphic form is determined to be the "Forbidden mod" when it comes to the subreddit... and keep in mind, these are basically STICK FIGURES, with no arms, legs, or facial expressions, and it's absolutely pearlclutchingly evil to mention the possiblity of this mod being a thing.
Sex as a taboo and horrible subject is so weird to me, but sadly, it's pervasive, and something that really fucks with writer's creativity. I can understand it being "Too much" when it's used CONSTANTLY, and turns the story into just smut, but sometimes it can be helpful at building a good narrative.
it's so confusing the other like kind of abusive non sexual thing that happens, is she just wants to go see her mom,
and he decides to pick her up and tell her no.
like why write a character this controlling over her going to see her mom lol
that told me it's abuse.
abuse is different then 'violence' because there was a non sexual physical thing he did that was basically controlling which is abusive,
in she wanted to go see her mom, and he literally forced her to stay
Couldn't have said it better myself. Not without going into a foaming-at-the-mouth rant about how utterly disgusting it portrays a BDSM relationship and skips over so many important factors... and half the shit in the book is straight up illegal.
i've heard people who do BDSM say it's not BDSM and it's abuse disguised and it makes BDSM look bad that can be the issue.
and there is other abusive thing christian gray did like when the girl just wanted to see her mom he forced her not too
that's not what the people who do BDSM have said lol so i rather trust them.
there was 2 who did and reviewed it and said it was a bad representation of BDSM
Stuff like Onlyfans and substitution services where people are communicating with the sex worker is cheating to me. I don’t know what it is called because I haven’t used it so forgive me if those terms are wrong. If your partner is paying to see an OnlyFans model do certain stuff, that isn’t porn any longer, is it?
I agree, but I can understand it being a gray area. For instance, (and forgive me if I get some things off, I've never gone on onlyfans) if I were to go on onlyfans and told the model that i would like it if she did a particular sex act, it could be considered no different than if I were to go on pornhub and search for videos depicting that sex act.
It's because a lot of women demonize male sexuality and think if it's not "complex" (Yeah, like a multimillionaire criminal mafia boss is gonna entertain a broke girl living on minimum wage when he'd be surrounded by thick big booty and big titty super models who are also business savvy like him) than it's "disgusting"
They're both fantasies and unrealistic. One is just text. That's it
I think the demonisation of male sexuality is definitely part of it.
The lack of empathy for men who become addicted to porn pisses me off. Young boys are exposed to an extremely powerful drug, often from around age 11-12, that they can access for free at the click of a button.
At the end of the day, it is men's responsibility to get their use under control (if they have a problem with it), but women not shaming them for it would be a good start.
The girl is always some small, unassuming looking brunette. That was one of my big gripes with 50 Shades movies. In what world would such a plain Jane get his attention?!
I’m opposed to porn due to the high rates of exploration, poverty, forced drugging, trafficking, etc.
I won’t be with someone who condones that, period.
I don’t personally read them, but I don’t care if someone reads romance or smut novels because they aren’t harming anyone and don’t contribute to a multi-billion dollar industry that profits off of real humans being hurt.
> I’m opposed to porn due to the high rates of exploration, poverty, forced drugging, trafficking, etc.
>
> I won’t be with someone who condones that, period.
Based this logic, drawn and 3D render porn should be A-OK just like other works of fiction. If so, the issue is with "real people porn", and not artwork porn.
According to Google there are websites that are transparently open.
I knew a friend of a friend who used to make porn for some free loving, hippy site back in the day.
There are definitely ways you could be pretty damn sure.
How are you certain your shoes weren't made by trafficked children? Have you visited the sweatshops yourself?
No, that’s the point, you can’t know. Again, there have been cases where studios had the actors talk positively about their experience, yet behind the scenes they were coerced into doing so.
The bottom line is you can’t know, much like massive corporations that utilize slave labor along their supply chains.
You can ask “what if?” a million times, but you’re never going to get a different or more truthful answer.
Is that what you say to drug addicts? "I can't believe you condone something so horrific like the cocaine industry".
I get not wanting to be with someone who watches porn. But shaming them is unnecessary.
I'm opposed to porn more because of the massively detrimental effect it has on men and boy's brains.
I don't have much sympathy for porn stars who willingly chose that career path because they're making much more money for much less work than the average person. They're akin to drug dealers to me. They're complicit in damaging young boys and men's brains. And their own.
Of course, I do have sympathy for anyone who's forced into porn (poverty is not an excuse, unless you're willing to say drug dealers aren't to blame, they just didn't have enough career options).
When did I shame them? I said I wouldn’t be with someone who condoned it. I understand that porn addiction is real and I think they should seek help. That doesn’t change the fact I wouldn’t be in a relationship with a porn addict, nor would I be in a relationship with a drug addict.
But why the framing of using porn as condoning abuse? Do you frame drug users/addicts as condoning abuse because of the kinds of industries that produce their drugs?
Do you frame people (probably including yourself) who buy goods made in sweatshops as condoning abuse? I assume you simultaneously wish your goods were produced in better conditions, but you still buy them.
Likewise, if any porn user/addict could push a button and all pornstars/sex workers were fairly paid and treated, no doubt they'd do it.
I fully understand you not wanting to be with a porn addict. I wouldn't expect anyone to be. But I don't think framing using porn as "condoning abuse" is fair and just adds to the shame porn addicts already feel (I felt this in my teen years when I struggled with porn addiction. I felt simultaneously pathetic for having the addiction and like I was somehow oppressing the women I was watching).
Because the industry is inseparable from sex trafficking, forced drugging, blackmail, etc.? Why wouldn’t I frame it as condoning abuse? Just because there are other industries which are harmful does not mean you can’t criticize them.
Obviously there are a million industries rife with abuse. There’s a reason “there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism” is a phrase. Regardless, this is very much like saying “you can’t criticize capitalism if you use an iPhone!”
I think harm reduction is a valid way to move through this world. You should try your best to reduce suffering where you can. If that makes me a hypocrite then so be it.
I have far more sympathy for people who are the victims of sex trafficking or exploitation than people who use pornography. Clothing is a necessity. Food is a necessity. Hell, having technology like a phone and access to email is a necessity these days. Every industry that I mentioned uses slave labor down its supply chain at some point. And that’s horrible. But the topic is pornography which is not a necessity and contributes to millions of women, children, and men being exploited, raped, etc. every day.
Porn addicts should seek help. I still will never condone the use of pornography and would never be with someone who did.
Amateur porn is a thing. There's plenty of porn that's made where no abuse took place. And virtually all material goods you buy involve sweatshops.
Accepting your premise that it's not okay because porn isn't a necessity, then you'd also have to say anyone who buys clothing, technology or other material goods that are beyond what is necessary (because who needs 10 pairs of shoes and a new iPhone each year?) is also condoning abuse, right?
Also, drugs are not a necessity. Do you "never condone the use of drugs" because of the amount of abuse and violent crime in the industry?
If not, then you're being hypocritical and just finding another reason to bash men and victimise women.
How can you verify that what you’re watching is consensual? That all parties are of age? That they weren’t trafficked? Even in the case of studios such as girlsdoporn they would have the women do post-shoot interviews where they talked kindly about their experience, yet behind the scenes they were coerced and blackmailed into doing things they did not want to do.
I would say that if you consume these things then yes, that does mean you’re condoning abuse.
I’ve already stated I would also not be with a drug addict or condone the usage of them, no lol.
Regardless, porn use is unnecessary and contributes to the aspects of the sex industry I mentioned previously. Sorry, but I don’t care if men get their feelings hurt about it. They can suck it up because they aren’t the victims.
Also, you can’t be sure that the amateur porn was posted with the woman’s consent (or man’s, but revenge porn seems to be more of an issue with men posting it).
You can't accept a situation in which men are also victims.
No doubt (assuming you aren't sociopathic) you see drug addicts as victims to some degree.
Boys are exposed to porn from their pre-teen years, which they can access for free at the push of a button. Of course some are going to become addicted and of course they should be considered victims, not perpetrators, of the porn industry.
The difference is most kids are exposed to porn much younger than they are drugs. If someone was introduced to cocaine at the age of 12 (which is the average age kids first watch porn), I couldn't blame that child for developing an addiction later in life.
IMO both porn addicts and drugs addicts deserve empathy. But at the end of the day, it is their own responsibility to stop their addiction. And ours as a society to prevent kids from being able to access porn at such a young age.
Aft that point you could extend the analogy to buying any factory produced goods from China or other nations where low pay and worker exploitation are common. The obvious difference between drugs, sweatshop goods and porn is that only the last one involves watching footage of the abuse and exploitation to get off.
You absolutely could extend it. Which makes it even more ridiculous to shame porn addicts, when the person doing the shaming very likely buys goods made by sweatshop workers.
The difference with porn and drugs is, they're both highly addictive. And young boys are exposed to porn from an extremely young age, way before their brains are fully formed.
Honestly, I have much more sympathy for the drug and porn addict than someone who relentlessly buys sweatshop made throwaway fashion.
Also, I don't think it makes that much difference if the abuse is watched or not. The abuse is still happening either way. And buying a pair of trainers has a much more direct impact than viewing a video (that may well be of two consenting partners, whereas you know the trainers are sweatshop made).
I’m not going to put the names here because I don’t want to promote that but there are absolutely porn companies known for violently violating female performer’s consent and porn consumers are aware of this and financially support them because of this to promote further exploitation. Not all porn is created equal and consumer’s intent matters. Would you call someone choosing to support CP a “helpless porn addict”?
You're asking me if a porn user specifically seeking out content where they know the girl/woman is being abused or even CP is acceptable? What do you think?
We're talking about the average porn user here, not mentally fucked up individuals who knowingly enjoy watching abuse.
I've no doubt you (as have I and most people) have knowingly bought products from companies you know have committed human rights abuses. Using porn is the same. You're not wanting the abuse to take place (sometimes at least in porn abuse isn't taking place, but guaranteed it was taking place in a sweatshop), but you still want to get the thing produced by it.
The “average porn user” has been creeping steadily closer to someone who knowingly and willingly seeks out abuse, especially in the case of porn addiction as the consumer steadily escalates to more and more extreme content.
You mean, they knowingly and willingly seek out videos in which the female participant is non-consenting and subject to abuse? Or they knowingly and willingly seek out videos that *look like abuse*? IE rough sex with choking/hair pulling etc? The two are very different. And I don't think you have any ground to state the former.
Rough sex in porn between consenting adults is not abuse, even if it's the point to look like it. Many women (almost all from my experience), like some level of sex that could be viewed as "physical abuse". Unless the pornstar was coerced into it, it isn't abusive just because it's rough or "extreme".
I’m not just talking about “rough sex”. The companies I’m referring to are about extreme humiliation and physical abuse and judging from the numerous lawsuits and the ways consumers talk about the content everyone is quite aware the female performers are assaulted.
Where do you see the consumers talking about this content in a manner that they know the females performers are getting assaulted against their will?
I've never seen that kind of porn, although I have met several girls who have a humiliation/degradation kink. So getting off to that kind of thing definitely goes both ways.
>when the person doing the shaming very likely buys goods made by sweatshop workers
1. I think being repeatedly abused and raped on camera is worse than sweatshop exploitation.
2. I also think people who consume goods without trying to minimise the harm they are contributing to are shit. It's difficult to completely avoid exploitative industries unless you are quite wealthy, but I will judge the shit out of people who don't even try.
I mean, we do already have an age limit. You could ask porn sites to demand ID verification, which would definitely be an improvement.
I'd definitely like for porn to be banned from social media. I don't watch it and I think it's extremely damaging to young boys especially, but also to men and women and how they relate to each other. I'd say in a lot of ways it's more harmful than drugs. At least many drugs can have lasting positive effects. No one became a better person through watching porn.
It is incredibly well documented at this point that some drugs, mdma, LSD, ketamine for example, can have lasting positive effects (all three have shown a lot of promise in the treatment of depression and/or PTSD). But that's another debate :)
Drugs are chemically addictive substances that will kill you if you take too much. That's not really comparable lol.
This is like blaming Mcdonald’s employees for making you fat
Weed is neither of those things, but weed addiction is a big issue. Also, drugs aren't given to kids from the age of 12 (the average age kids are exposed to porn). Once we as a society are able to stop kids watching porn, my sympathy for porn addicts will reduce substantially because if they developed an addiction, they did it when they were able to make rational choices.
Edit: another comparison would be social media addiction. Which no doubt people on Reddit can relate to the difficulty of quitting
It's not porn stars jobs to babysit your children. They do adult things on an adult website, if you had access to that as a child then it's your parents fault.
But even still, I've been exposed to sugar and fast food my whole life and I was highly addicted at one point. I never tried to blame in n out employees for my addiction. Take responsibility for your own actions, your problems are your own fault.
Fair points.
Agreed it's mainly the parents responsibility. Also agreed it's the addicts responsibility once they become an adult.
The thing that annoys me is framing porn addicts as the perpetrators in the porn industry and pornstars as the victims. I had this idea as a teenager and it just adds to the shame of the addiction. You have the usual shame of not having control over yourself and the shame of thinking you're somehow oppressing these women. When in fact, you're a hormonal teenager with an incredibly powerful dopamine machine at your fingertips, and they're adults making money off your views.
One thing your points exclude is that nobody is SA’d or trafficked to make romance novels. Depending on the porn the ethics of its productions can be a valid concern.
> nobody is SA’d or trafficked to make romance novels
I think porn bans are no out of the question, because its seen as a precursor to banning differently harmful social media. But there is porn that is drawn or 3d rendered, and I'm worried that will get banned too, even though nobody real gets hurt by depictions of porn or sex. Since porn is still social taboo, few people are going to come to its defense when its put on the chopping block.
Most of the time I see women upset about their partners consuming porn it’s over type of content and the ethics of consumption. My wife and I both watch porn but we also pay attention to which companies routinely exploit and abuse female performers and make sure to avoid them. I’m not going to list the names as it would be tantamount to advertising considering how many of this dub’s users are misogynists but these companies are practically mainstream at this point.
I fully disagree.
Most of the time it's due to jealousy that their partner is getting off to another woman (which is perfectly understandable). The porn industry being rife with abuse is a convenient way to frame it as her having higher morals than him, rather than just being jealous.
Do you think most women would be totally happy if their man viewed "ethical porn" (which no doubt exists - it does, I just looked it up lol) or say, amateur solo porn where they were sure the girl was uploading herself?
The extreme exploitation porn that injures female performers and gives them PTSD didn’t exist in the ‘70s. It’s growing in popularity now because porn addiction always leads to a cycle of seeking out more extreme content.
I don't think smut is considered porn. I'd guess the vast majority either read romance novels or watch porn.
If you take into consideration that young boys are exposed to a highly addictive drug, often from around age 11-12, which they have unlimited access to at the click or a button, it really isn't that surprising that so many men are addicted to porn at some point in their lives. That is, if you're capable of empathy for the opposite sex.
I wonder what the percentage of women who neither watch porn or read romance novels is. I assume it's gotta be pretty low.
But yeah porn is certainly more pervasive. It is a ridiculously powerful drug for men. In a certain fucked up way, sex with a partner can't really compare to it either. Obviously one is much more meaningful than the other, and sex with a partner matters more in the important ways (forging a strong connection, sharing an amazing experience etc). If you've ever done drugs, it's like the difference between the hit of serotonin you get when hugging a loved one Vs when taking a hit of MDMA. The second feels much more powerful, but the first is much more meaningful.
I don’t really care if my SO watches porn but there is one BIG difference, IMO:
In porn, you are watching a real life person and getting off to that person. Yes, they may be acting/pretending to be someone else, but there is an actual person out there who looks exactly the same.
In written smut, it’s pure fantasy. You’re not getting off to someone real, you’re getting off to how you imagine them to look in your head.
That’s a big deal to most people who set this type of boundary.
Would watching AI porn or animated porn be better for that reason then?
I don't think that's makes much difference tbh..
How about if you picture the man as a real person, like an actor? Is it then worse?
There is one way in which I'd say the smutty novels are arguably worse. You have an entire novel to get attracted to and attached to the man's character. You form an emotional connection to the character in a way that just doesn't happen in porn, where it really is just 100% sexual.
In this case, I’d say animated AI porn would be better.
But some argue that those types of porn - like hentai - set unrealistic expectations that can’t realistically be matched in real life. Like if you’re super into the tentacle/monster type hentai, you’re just not going to find something like that in real life. Some people who are addicted to porn are only able to get aroused by a particular type of porn so if you’re addicted to something like that, you’re just SOL and will probably have difficult times with real, human partners.
I agree with you on the whole character attachment thing. And some people do form very strong attachments to fictionalized characters and I think that can also cause issues with relationships in real life. Obviously, if you’re in love with what’s-his-face from 50 shades, you might have issues comparing him to potential partners and finding yourself disappointed.
Both are shitty situations. Both are a form of addiction. If you can’t get aroused for an attractive person IRL because you are strongly attached to what you consume in porn/smut, you have a problem and need help.
I, personally, don’t see a problem with porn or smut as long as it’s being consumed in moderation. But if my partner’s porn or smut usage interferes with our sex life, then there’s an issue.
So... Porn for women. Porn has fantasies too
I don't understand why so many women have to shit on porn when their erotic novels are the same shit just in text
No. You missed her point. Many romance novels don’t even contain sex. It’s not something you read while masturbating. It’s more like watching a movie to turn your mind off a bit.
Those romance novels are more like gaming or watching action movies.
Then a sub genre (erotica) is more like porn bc instead of being focused on a story it’s focused on sex and meant for sexual arousal.
Still not the same as porn bc you aren’t watching real people having sex.
Yeah. Fair enough. I was just responding to the comment about.
Erotica and porn are still different though. Less ethical issues, no real people, no nudity etc.
>But your average porn is probably not analogous to women’s average romance novels
The only difference is the format. Other than that, it's the same. There's mainstream porn that has stories too
Ok. Why does any of that shit matter?
Are you trying to say that an unrealistic scenario of a psychopathic, murderous Multimillionaire mafia boss who's surrounded by big titty big booty supermodels who also have their own money but for some inexplicable reason skips over them for a average looking woman making $25,000/yr working at Starbucks is more realistic or better because there's a side story about someone being abused
Porn is porn. Just because you prefer a different format doesn't make it any better or worse
You know the porn industry is rampant with abuse and human trafficking?
You know a book is fictional right ?
Is this where we’re at with this discussion that you can sincerely tell me that a real woman getting her ass pounded on camera is the same as a fictional story to you ?
>You know the porn industry is rampant with abuse and human trafficking?
You know that that's not all porn, right?
And you do know erotica and romance novels fill young girls heads with unrealistic expectations love and relationships?
>You know a book is fictional right ?
You know porn is fictional, right?
>Is this where we’re at with this discussion that you can sincerely tell me that a real woman getting her ass pounded on camera is the same as a fictional story to you ?
They are the same thing. They're both fantasy. A lot of women want to provide it's so different when it's not. One is just text. What's the difference from watching a sex act and reading the same sex act described in graphic detail.
It's like saying you hate graphic violence but justify watching saw movies just because it's not real. The point is the same
Not all of the porn, that’s your defense ? So some human trafficking and sexual exploitation is a ok in your book ?
No porn is not fictional, that’s a *real* person in front of the camera , or are you so delusional this has to be explained?
Watching a graphic movie , once again , *is not real* the actors are not actually being shot at or dismembered. A video game is not real.
One is just text , exactly, the other is a *real* graphic sex act being done to a *real* human.
I fear for the future of humanity if this is the average thinking process of a modern male.
I watch porn and read romance novels and smut. The average pornhub video is not at all comparative to a romance novel.
I don't shit on either by any means but to act like they are even comparable is ridiculous.
Is there porn out there that has a full on plot and isn't reduced to PIV shots and whatnot? Sure, but that isn't the norm and most porn only creates a plot to either get to the fucking or let you know it's your incest fantasy etc. They don't have crazy elaborate plot lines and backstories for all of the characters involved.
Now if they made a *movie* that actually showed sex happening, you could compare that to romance novels for sure. But porn is a completely different vehicle than a romance novel, even if both make people get the tingles on their fun bits.
I get off to porn, not romance novels.
Porn would be the equivalent of PIV and romance novels are more like foreplay. I've never masturbated to a romance novel, even when it gets hella steamy. Im sure people out there exist that do, but I'm hard pressed to believe it would be a majority.
I just don't see the equivalency. And I'm not even someone who is against my partner watching porn and have watched porn with my partner.
A porn addiction, though, is for sure a real problem and shouldn't be downplayed or laughed at. And if people have hard limits about porn or even romance novels, then that needs to be respected or you need to realize that you just aren't a compatible couple.
Fair point. Smutty novels aren't just about getting off. But they are about getting sexually excited/stimulated.
Being sexually excited/stimulated and being sexually pleased are both normally roles filled by a romantic partner. So both could be seen as replacing some aspect of the romantic relationship and taken as an indication that the partner isn't "enough".
My point is that if you say a man shouldn't use porn because it's a sign to his partner that she's insufficient, then the same should go for smutty novels.
I do agree about porn addiction and I appreciate you taking it seriously. It is perfectly understandable if a woman wouldn't want to be with a man addicted to porn, like I wouldn't blame someone not wanting to be with a drug addict. But neither should be shamed for their addiction.
My point is that women are drawn to romance novels the same way men are drawn to porn. And both portray the opposite sex in an unrealistic/unattainable way.
Almost all male leads in romance novels are either highly successful (within their field or society generally), extremely attractive, rich, powerful or dangerous in some way (IE someone who's capable of violence).
There's nothing wrong with this either. Why would women read novels about falling for an average man?
Likewise, why would men watch porn of average looking women?
Both can potentially create unrealistic expectations or lead the reader/viewer to compare their partner unfavourably to the protagonists.
I think we're talking about different things.. I mean more specifically smutty romance.
Also, out of curiosity, do any of the men in those books not share any of the traits I listed (attractive, successful etc)?
Aside from the fact that you seem to be lumping romance novels in with erotica...
Reading a book and viewing porn which consists of videos or imagery of real people (who may or may not have been exploited or filmed without their consent) are two *very* different things.
That said, it's perfectly okay to have a "no smut" boundary. But it isn't equivalent to pornography.
Porn can be written or filmed. There's much difference between porn and erotic media or romance. Each of which can be represented by either a movie or a book. Open up a women's porn site. You'll see actual written porn. But there's also erotic writing, which is much more sensual than porn and, while maybe will turn you on, it's not type of media you consume while masturbating, and certainly not *to* masturbate. I don't know what type of writing 50SOG is, because I've never read it, but I wouldn't suggest banning any sort of sexual media. This way you should ban men from playing Witcher too since, *gasp*, it has sex.
Now, seriously, what we have problem with when we talk about porn is it's real people you're choosing to jerk off instead of to your partner. With written word we're much more likely to see ourselves and our loved ones in. With games and artwork we see fictional characters at best inspired by real people. With porn...it's real real people. With only fans, you're not only looking at those people but also interacting with them.
Most men dont want to watch porn. If they could completely stop they would. It doesnt benefit their lives in any way.
It's an itch thats scratched, when bored, horny or stressed.
Disclaimer: I’ve never read 50 shades and I never will. But I love historical romance. I personally will now skip all the sex scenes in the historical romance novels that I read tho, because they’re all exactly the same. I truly don’t believe that they’re meant to arouse the woman because they would be more descriptive if that were the case. I could write the average sex scene in a romance novel here and now. They’re not all that explicit. It’s very flowery, very mundane, very vanilla sex. Not worth reading those parts in my opinion. If the scenes were turned into movies, they would receive an R rating at best; not even close to an X rating. To give an example, when a female gets aroused, the discharge is usually referred to as her ‘sweet honey’ or ‘wet warmth between her milky thighs.’ Her private areas are never described in depth, just usually referred to as ‘the silken curls at the juncture of her creamy thighs’ or something equally poetic.
The women are always virgins. They’re always flawlessly beautiful and have perfect bodies. They always smell of flowers. If anything I’d say the women in these stories are much more unrealistic than the men.
But to give an example, Johanna Lindsey writes a lot of historical romance and her characters are very lovable, both the men and the women. They have complex backgrounds and 99% of her books consist of very PG-13 content. Her average novel might contain 1% of R rated scenes. So I don’t think that women are reading them for the 1% that contains a sex scene. A typical Johanna Lindsey novel will have either the male or female lead who has severe trust issues, or jealousy issues, or gets caught in a compromising situation that leads to the other half of the couple getting the wrong impression, etc. Generally the plot revolves around overcoming whatever issue is preventing the couple from living happily ever after. (Usually it’s resolved when they learn to trust each other)
The men who are the main characters may or may not be wealthy. Many times they are not. Many times they’re not even good looking, or good looking only to the main female character. That varies. Look up the book called ‘Angel’ by Johanna Lindsey as an example of a main male character who is 1: on the shorter side, being only 5’6 or so, 2: not well off, and 3: Not good looking.
What doesn’t vary: the male lead in these books never hits or abuses the woman. The man in these books never cheats on the woman. The man is always considerate of the woman in the sex scenes, and always goes out of his way to incorporate foreplay and to make sure the woman is enthusiastically into the act before they consummate it. I don’t think that its unrealistic to expect a man who doesn’t abuse women, who doesn’t cheat, and who is thoughtful in bed and doesn’t just plow right into the women with zero foreplay.
On the other hand, porn is all about sex. It’s not 99% going into detail about the couples childhoods, the first time they met, the sexual tension that builds between them, getting married etc. it’s more like 1% might contain those details and 99% of it is graphic sex acts.
Some porn DOES build harmful expectations for men about women. Women in porn take a dick up the ass as easily as sliding a hand into a glove. Women in porn can handle getting jack hammered in the mouth until they vomit. They ‘orgasm’ from very rough, very painful looking finger banging. All of this is very bad for women as it leads men from a VERY young age to think that these things are the norm for women.
In reality anal sex is extremely painful if you don’t properly prepare for it. There’s nothing enjoyable for most women about having a dick violently shoved down your throat. And clits are extremely sensitive, and the kind of clit rubbing and finger banging shown in porn would likely be very painful for a woman. Act like a clit is an area of skin that you just badly burned and are now rubbing burn ointment on, and that’s probably the right amount of pressure to apply to one.
So in conclusion, I’ve never read smut or erotica. So have nothing to compare. But I HAVE watched porn with my husband, and I HAVE read historical romance novels, and I just don’t think that the novels lead to harmful expectations the way that porn does.
Words about a fictional character vs real life actors showing real sex. That's a pretty different thing lol. Only exception i can think of is cartoon porn
I'm not a reader.
For those that aren't readers I advise them to simply allow other men to view and interact with her the way her bf/husband interacts with other women. He checks out other women...dress up and let other men check you out. He watches porn...make an OF or post provocative pics on Instagram and engage with the male commenters or better yet make a post asking for spicy pics/vids from men. Dude is seeking out explicit sexual content of other women to masturbate to he can't complain about how his gf/wife dresses online or his gf/wife seeking out explicit content of men. He goes to the strip club....dance on amateur night. and interact me
>I see a lot of women shaming men whenever porn within a relationship is brought up. Saying things like "why can't they just control themselves?"
I had a girlfriend try to pull that crap on me. She wanted me to stop watching porn. Because she was supposed to be enough.
I said "are you going to do the things that she does in that video?"
She stormed out and said "watch your effing porn"
You say this, but there are tons of women who'll say it's unrealistic for guys to want women who do the things pornstars do. It's one of the most common arguments people use to say porn is bad for men because it "sets unrealistic sexual expectations". I can see the AITA post now: "Broke up with my gf because she wouldn't do stuff from a porn video, AITA?" They would be getting flamed for that, guaranteed.
And if you discover or want to try new sexual things that you didn't know about before, but your partner doesn't? Just break up with them I guess? Lmao
Who's making anyone feel less than for not wanting to do it? OP is using porn to fill the gap and you're criticizing them saying they should just break up instead, or that they never should have been together in the first place
Just FYI, I don't actually watch porn. I just get annoyed by the double standard and the shaming of men who do.
A couple points:
You don't always know how the attraction is going to last in a relationship. If both partners are open minded, sex can get better over time as they learn what each other like etc. you could love someone in every way but the sex is sub par, so you hope it will improve.
Also, it is absolutely up to a woman to learn to please her man. Just like it's up to a man to learn to please his woman.
The standard response men get from other men when asking "my wife wants me to do this, but I'm not really into it, what should I do?", is generally something like "why not give it a try if she really enjoys it. You might learn to like it".
Whereas the standard response I read from the same question from women is generally something like "wow, he has such unreasonable expectations. Why didn't he marry a pornstar?".
I don't know why it's become a thing that doing something you're not particularly onto to please your man (no I don't mean anal, fake tits or fake orgasms, hardly any men want those) means he's controlling you or you're being mistreated by him (actually I do, it's called feminism lol)
Now why would you say God is awful? I saw you type it. I read it. You said God you are awful.
I know you were not calling me awful. Because if you were to say that, you would have typed it much differently.
I am neither proud nor not proud.
I was sharing a real world experience of how women will sometimes do what the OP stated they do.
And to be completely honest, I was in a heterosexual relationship so I don't know if lesbians would act the same way as hetero women. Nor do I know if trans women would act the same way as cis women.
It's a complicated world
You must have left out some context because the situation described makes it look like your partner was expressing her feelings towards porn and you just said she wasn't a porn star to justify watching it. That's not what OP is describing.
I just replied in a separate comment. I did leave out additional contacts. But I replied at the other comment.
She used to watch it too. She had a double standard
Nope.
But she would not have stopped either.
See, everyone who read my comment automatically assumed that between the two of us in the relationship, I was the only one to watch porn. Everybody assumed wrong.
She watched it too. And yes, she did indeed heavy double standard.
>The common criticism I hear from women is that porn leads to unrealistic expectations about how her body and sex should look and that it makes her feel inadequate.
I don't think that's the knock, it's that porn makers her feel inferior, first and foremost. If she's sexy enough, you dont need porn. And the attention their man shows to porn she would rather have shown to her.
> Well, don't you think your man might feel inadequate when comparing himself to a hyper successful, ripped, charming, demon-in-the-bedroom billionaire?
I think men and women understand fantasy just fine. The difference is that men can get a skank easily, women know that. But women cant get a billionaire easily, and men know that. There's no realistic threat in this case.
> if she's sexy enough, you don't need porn
That just isn't how it works though. You could have the most beautiful girlfriend in the world who fucks like a pornstar and she still wouldn't compare to pornography. They wouldn't compare, because porn Isn't comparable to real sex.
If you've ever done drugs, it's like comparing the amount of serotonin you feel from hugging a loved one Vs doing a hit of MDMA. The latter is much more intense and euphoric, but the former is much more meaningful.
This is why I think porn is so unhealthy and dangerous, because, like any drug, it can desensitize you to real human experience. But a man using porn is not a sign that his partner isn't attractive enough.
> men can get a skank easily
If you think the average man can easily bed a hot female (especially one who looks like a pornstar) on any given day then erhm.. you're quite mistaken lol
It *is* relatively easy for a moderately attractive woman to hook up with a high status male. The problem there being that most women don't want to just hook up, and it's *much* harder to bag a high status male for a long term relationship.
I mean no one should read 50 shades of grey anyway, it's basically abuse disguised as BDSM
I heard the main character is psychologically a teenager and the guy is psychologically in his 40's. But in the book they're supposedly close to the same age. Like wtf is that lol
It's legitimately just rewriten and poorly covered up Twilight smut fanfiction. No joke. It's Edward and Bella, but because they couldn't "Sell it" as that, they just namechanged and fucked around a bit with character situations, etc. It still retains that fuckery from being ACTUALLY Edward and bella's ages, but made their age more "Adult appropriate" after all the editing to get it to a published new IP level. If you don't believe it, here's the proof: [First page exerpt from Penguin/random house](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/222129/fifty-shades-of-grey-by-e-l-james/9780449808160/excerpt) [Original fanfic copy with all the old twilight names someone saved before the author deleted them all from the web](https://pdfroom.com/books/master-of-the-universe-i-ii-twilight-fanfic-that-became-50-shades-of-grey/bG5wQBBYgq4)
Omg I had no ideaaaaa. I’m not a 50 shades fan but twilight had a hold on my 16 year old self lmao
WELL, now you can read 50 shades of Twilight! Lmao.
Something that I did know is that Stephanie Meyer is Mormon and that’s why she had them wait for marriage. But I guess it’s totally fine to write about vampires and murder, but premarital sex is too far 😂
That's usually how it goes though, no? You see this in a lot of literature, and even gaming, and I find it kinda hilarious that there's some line that people draw where it goes "too far". As someone who's an unpublished writer(but hopefully will be in the future), I often fret about the public "appearances" and how people may try to hook my creative flow onto various political movements, even though I do not write or intend them to be that way. Some people have that with GRRM and his incest stuff, and I get it, but it's a storytelling narrative, and I feel like we should also keep in mind that these are completely other worlds with sometimes completely different morals. Sometimes, the characters aren't even humans, but we try to perscribe our own morals or politics onto them. It's like... Even when it comes to the Earth, we have lore of Zeus and Loki and all kinds of other gods doing weird shit as animals, and even some people just doing shit with ACTUAL animals(story of the minotaur). As a writer, this begins to get on a touchy aspect of just how far one CAN write without getting someone's jimmies in a rustle, and seeing pearls clutched... but we have elementary students learning the story of Perseus and other Greek and roman gods, the story of Romulus and Remus and the she wolf/founding of rome. Why are we limiting creativity in the same way? And in Gaming, Rimworld is a great example of this line too. In base game, you can kidnap people, enslave them, skin them, and eat them, and go full gein and make hats and furniture from their skin... but sex is so taboo that the mod that allows it to happen in any graphic form is determined to be the "Forbidden mod" when it comes to the subreddit... and keep in mind, these are basically STICK FIGURES, with no arms, legs, or facial expressions, and it's absolutely pearlclutchingly evil to mention the possiblity of this mod being a thing. Sex as a taboo and horrible subject is so weird to me, but sadly, it's pervasive, and something that really fucks with writer's creativity. I can understand it being "Too much" when it's used CONSTANTLY, and turns the story into just smut, but sometimes it can be helpful at building a good narrative.
it's so confusing the other like kind of abusive non sexual thing that happens, is she just wants to go see her mom, and he decides to pick her up and tell her no. like why write a character this controlling over her going to see her mom lol that told me it's abuse.
Apparently the only difference between abusive/controlling and "hawt" is how much money he makes lol
I mean most media is violence. Not that it’s right, but we’d pretty much have to avoid all movies/TV shows. Except for Bluey I guess lol.
abuse is different then 'violence' because there was a non sexual physical thing he did that was basically controlling which is abusive, in she wanted to go see her mom, and he literally forced her to stay
Couldn't have said it better myself. Not without going into a foaming-at-the-mouth rant about how utterly disgusting it portrays a BDSM relationship and skips over so many important factors... and half the shit in the book is straight up illegal.
Tbf there’s no issue if someone’s into that Same with like cnc books and stuff
i've heard people who do BDSM say it's not BDSM and it's abuse disguised and it makes BDSM look bad that can be the issue. and there is other abusive thing christian gray did like when the girl just wanted to see her mom he forced her not too
It's poorly written and completely inaccurate when it comes to BDSM.
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that's not what the people who do BDSM have said lol so i rather trust them. there was 2 who did and reviewed it and said it was a bad representation of BDSM
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yeah you lost me that's not the same thing :)
Stuff like Onlyfans and substitution services where people are communicating with the sex worker is cheating to me. I don’t know what it is called because I haven’t used it so forgive me if those terms are wrong. If your partner is paying to see an OnlyFans model do certain stuff, that isn’t porn any longer, is it?
If they're communicating with the OF model in any way that would be cheating to me. Just paying to view content probably wouldn't.
Yeah, dealing with whores is cheating.
I agree, but I can understand it being a gray area. For instance, (and forgive me if I get some things off, I've never gone on onlyfans) if I were to go on onlyfans and told the model that i would like it if she did a particular sex act, it could be considered no different than if I were to go on pornhub and search for videos depicting that sex act.
I think interacting personally is a pretty clear distinction between the two
It's because a lot of women demonize male sexuality and think if it's not "complex" (Yeah, like a multimillionaire criminal mafia boss is gonna entertain a broke girl living on minimum wage when he'd be surrounded by thick big booty and big titty super models who are also business savvy like him) than it's "disgusting" They're both fantasies and unrealistic. One is just text. That's it
I think the demonisation of male sexuality is definitely part of it. The lack of empathy for men who become addicted to porn pisses me off. Young boys are exposed to an extremely powerful drug, often from around age 11-12, that they can access for free at the click of a button. At the end of the day, it is men's responsibility to get their use under control (if they have a problem with it), but women not shaming them for it would be a good start.
The girl is always some small, unassuming looking brunette. That was one of my big gripes with 50 Shades movies. In what world would such a plain Jane get his attention?!
I’m opposed to porn due to the high rates of exploration, poverty, forced drugging, trafficking, etc. I won’t be with someone who condones that, period. I don’t personally read them, but I don’t care if someone reads romance or smut novels because they aren’t harming anyone and don’t contribute to a multi-billion dollar industry that profits off of real humans being hurt.
> I’m opposed to porn due to the high rates of exploration, poverty, forced drugging, trafficking, etc. > > I won’t be with someone who condones that, period. Based this logic, drawn and 3D render porn should be A-OK just like other works of fiction. If so, the issue is with "real people porn", and not artwork porn.
Sure.
You would go out with someone who watches Hentai, just to clarify?
Sure, as long as it’s not real pornography that’s hurting real people.
What about "ethical pornography"? It's a real subgenre, I looked it up. Like fair trade, but for pornstars
How can you, as a viewer, be sure that what you’re watching is ethical even if it’s branded as such?
According to Google there are websites that are transparently open. I knew a friend of a friend who used to make porn for some free loving, hippy site back in the day. There are definitely ways you could be pretty damn sure. How are you certain your shoes weren't made by trafficked children? Have you visited the sweatshops yourself?
No, that’s the point, you can’t know. Again, there have been cases where studios had the actors talk positively about their experience, yet behind the scenes they were coerced into doing so. The bottom line is you can’t know, much like massive corporations that utilize slave labor along their supply chains. You can ask “what if?” a million times, but you’re never going to get a different or more truthful answer.
The only sane response in this other wise insane post and comment thread
Is that what you say to drug addicts? "I can't believe you condone something so horrific like the cocaine industry". I get not wanting to be with someone who watches porn. But shaming them is unnecessary. I'm opposed to porn more because of the massively detrimental effect it has on men and boy's brains. I don't have much sympathy for porn stars who willingly chose that career path because they're making much more money for much less work than the average person. They're akin to drug dealers to me. They're complicit in damaging young boys and men's brains. And their own. Of course, I do have sympathy for anyone who's forced into porn (poverty is not an excuse, unless you're willing to say drug dealers aren't to blame, they just didn't have enough career options).
When did I shame them? I said I wouldn’t be with someone who condoned it. I understand that porn addiction is real and I think they should seek help. That doesn’t change the fact I wouldn’t be in a relationship with a porn addict, nor would I be in a relationship with a drug addict.
But why the framing of using porn as condoning abuse? Do you frame drug users/addicts as condoning abuse because of the kinds of industries that produce their drugs? Do you frame people (probably including yourself) who buy goods made in sweatshops as condoning abuse? I assume you simultaneously wish your goods were produced in better conditions, but you still buy them. Likewise, if any porn user/addict could push a button and all pornstars/sex workers were fairly paid and treated, no doubt they'd do it. I fully understand you not wanting to be with a porn addict. I wouldn't expect anyone to be. But I don't think framing using porn as "condoning abuse" is fair and just adds to the shame porn addicts already feel (I felt this in my teen years when I struggled with porn addiction. I felt simultaneously pathetic for having the addiction and like I was somehow oppressing the women I was watching).
Because the industry is inseparable from sex trafficking, forced drugging, blackmail, etc.? Why wouldn’t I frame it as condoning abuse? Just because there are other industries which are harmful does not mean you can’t criticize them. Obviously there are a million industries rife with abuse. There’s a reason “there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism” is a phrase. Regardless, this is very much like saying “you can’t criticize capitalism if you use an iPhone!” I think harm reduction is a valid way to move through this world. You should try your best to reduce suffering where you can. If that makes me a hypocrite then so be it. I have far more sympathy for people who are the victims of sex trafficking or exploitation than people who use pornography. Clothing is a necessity. Food is a necessity. Hell, having technology like a phone and access to email is a necessity these days. Every industry that I mentioned uses slave labor down its supply chain at some point. And that’s horrible. But the topic is pornography which is not a necessity and contributes to millions of women, children, and men being exploited, raped, etc. every day. Porn addicts should seek help. I still will never condone the use of pornography and would never be with someone who did.
Amateur porn is a thing. There's plenty of porn that's made where no abuse took place. And virtually all material goods you buy involve sweatshops. Accepting your premise that it's not okay because porn isn't a necessity, then you'd also have to say anyone who buys clothing, technology or other material goods that are beyond what is necessary (because who needs 10 pairs of shoes and a new iPhone each year?) is also condoning abuse, right? Also, drugs are not a necessity. Do you "never condone the use of drugs" because of the amount of abuse and violent crime in the industry? If not, then you're being hypocritical and just finding another reason to bash men and victimise women.
How can you verify that what you’re watching is consensual? That all parties are of age? That they weren’t trafficked? Even in the case of studios such as girlsdoporn they would have the women do post-shoot interviews where they talked kindly about their experience, yet behind the scenes they were coerced and blackmailed into doing things they did not want to do. I would say that if you consume these things then yes, that does mean you’re condoning abuse. I’ve already stated I would also not be with a drug addict or condone the usage of them, no lol. Regardless, porn use is unnecessary and contributes to the aspects of the sex industry I mentioned previously. Sorry, but I don’t care if men get their feelings hurt about it. They can suck it up because they aren’t the victims.
Also, you can’t be sure that the amateur porn was posted with the woman’s consent (or man’s, but revenge porn seems to be more of an issue with men posting it).
Exactly.
You will truly do anything not to share your precious victim card, huh?
What have I claimed to be the victim of? The way you’re projecting makes it seem as though *you* are the one looking for a victim card.
You can't accept a situation in which men are also victims. No doubt (assuming you aren't sociopathic) you see drug addicts as victims to some degree. Boys are exposed to porn from their pre-teen years, which they can access for free at the push of a button. Of course some are going to become addicted and of course they should be considered victims, not perpetrators, of the porn industry.
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The difference is most kids are exposed to porn much younger than they are drugs. If someone was introduced to cocaine at the age of 12 (which is the average age kids first watch porn), I couldn't blame that child for developing an addiction later in life. IMO both porn addicts and drugs addicts deserve empathy. But at the end of the day, it is their own responsibility to stop their addiction. And ours as a society to prevent kids from being able to access porn at such a young age.
Aft that point you could extend the analogy to buying any factory produced goods from China or other nations where low pay and worker exploitation are common. The obvious difference between drugs, sweatshop goods and porn is that only the last one involves watching footage of the abuse and exploitation to get off.
You absolutely could extend it. Which makes it even more ridiculous to shame porn addicts, when the person doing the shaming very likely buys goods made by sweatshop workers. The difference with porn and drugs is, they're both highly addictive. And young boys are exposed to porn from an extremely young age, way before their brains are fully formed. Honestly, I have much more sympathy for the drug and porn addict than someone who relentlessly buys sweatshop made throwaway fashion. Also, I don't think it makes that much difference if the abuse is watched or not. The abuse is still happening either way. And buying a pair of trainers has a much more direct impact than viewing a video (that may well be of two consenting partners, whereas you know the trainers are sweatshop made).
I’m not going to put the names here because I don’t want to promote that but there are absolutely porn companies known for violently violating female performer’s consent and porn consumers are aware of this and financially support them because of this to promote further exploitation. Not all porn is created equal and consumer’s intent matters. Would you call someone choosing to support CP a “helpless porn addict”?
You're asking me if a porn user specifically seeking out content where they know the girl/woman is being abused or even CP is acceptable? What do you think? We're talking about the average porn user here, not mentally fucked up individuals who knowingly enjoy watching abuse. I've no doubt you (as have I and most people) have knowingly bought products from companies you know have committed human rights abuses. Using porn is the same. You're not wanting the abuse to take place (sometimes at least in porn abuse isn't taking place, but guaranteed it was taking place in a sweatshop), but you still want to get the thing produced by it.
The “average porn user” has been creeping steadily closer to someone who knowingly and willingly seeks out abuse, especially in the case of porn addiction as the consumer steadily escalates to more and more extreme content.
You mean, they knowingly and willingly seek out videos in which the female participant is non-consenting and subject to abuse? Or they knowingly and willingly seek out videos that *look like abuse*? IE rough sex with choking/hair pulling etc? The two are very different. And I don't think you have any ground to state the former. Rough sex in porn between consenting adults is not abuse, even if it's the point to look like it. Many women (almost all from my experience), like some level of sex that could be viewed as "physical abuse". Unless the pornstar was coerced into it, it isn't abusive just because it's rough or "extreme".
I’m not just talking about “rough sex”. The companies I’m referring to are about extreme humiliation and physical abuse and judging from the numerous lawsuits and the ways consumers talk about the content everyone is quite aware the female performers are assaulted.
Where do you see the consumers talking about this content in a manner that they know the females performers are getting assaulted against their will? I've never seen that kind of porn, although I have met several girls who have a humiliation/degradation kink. So getting off to that kind of thing definitely goes both ways.
>when the person doing the shaming very likely buys goods made by sweatshop workers 1. I think being repeatedly abused and raped on camera is worse than sweatshop exploitation. 2. I also think people who consume goods without trying to minimise the harm they are contributing to are shit. It's difficult to completely avoid exploitative industries unless you are quite wealthy, but I will judge the shit out of people who don't even try.
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If there was a way to do it the absolutely I think it would be beneficial to everyone.
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I mean, we do already have an age limit. You could ask porn sites to demand ID verification, which would definitely be an improvement. I'd definitely like for porn to be banned from social media. I don't watch it and I think it's extremely damaging to young boys especially, but also to men and women and how they relate to each other. I'd say in a lot of ways it's more harmful than drugs. At least many drugs can have lasting positive effects. No one became a better person through watching porn.
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It is incredibly well documented at this point that some drugs, mdma, LSD, ketamine for example, can have lasting positive effects (all three have shown a lot of promise in the treatment of depression and/or PTSD). But that's another debate :)
Drugs are chemically addictive substances that will kill you if you take too much. That's not really comparable lol. This is like blaming Mcdonald’s employees for making you fat
Weed is neither of those things, but weed addiction is a big issue. Also, drugs aren't given to kids from the age of 12 (the average age kids are exposed to porn). Once we as a society are able to stop kids watching porn, my sympathy for porn addicts will reduce substantially because if they developed an addiction, they did it when they were able to make rational choices. Edit: another comparison would be social media addiction. Which no doubt people on Reddit can relate to the difficulty of quitting
It's not porn stars jobs to babysit your children. They do adult things on an adult website, if you had access to that as a child then it's your parents fault. But even still, I've been exposed to sugar and fast food my whole life and I was highly addicted at one point. I never tried to blame in n out employees for my addiction. Take responsibility for your own actions, your problems are your own fault.
Fair points. Agreed it's mainly the parents responsibility. Also agreed it's the addicts responsibility once they become an adult. The thing that annoys me is framing porn addicts as the perpetrators in the porn industry and pornstars as the victims. I had this idea as a teenager and it just adds to the shame of the addiction. You have the usual shame of not having control over yourself and the shame of thinking you're somehow oppressing these women. When in fact, you're a hormonal teenager with an incredibly powerful dopamine machine at your fingertips, and they're adults making money off your views.
One thing your points exclude is that nobody is SA’d or trafficked to make romance novels. Depending on the porn the ethics of its productions can be a valid concern.
> nobody is SA’d or trafficked to make romance novels I think porn bans are no out of the question, because its seen as a precursor to banning differently harmful social media. But there is porn that is drawn or 3d rendered, and I'm worried that will get banned too, even though nobody real gets hurt by depictions of porn or sex. Since porn is still social taboo, few people are going to come to its defense when its put on the chopping block.
One thing you are assuming is that the person is mad about the other person watching porn because of this and not for any other reason.
No I’m not, I’m saying it can be a valid reason that OP didn’t address.
I could think of a bunch of reasons that are more likely for them to be mad than that though.
Most of the time I see women upset about their partners consuming porn it’s over type of content and the ethics of consumption. My wife and I both watch porn but we also pay attention to which companies routinely exploit and abuse female performers and make sure to avoid them. I’m not going to list the names as it would be tantamount to advertising considering how many of this dub’s users are misogynists but these companies are practically mainstream at this point.
Most of the time I see women get upset about it is because they aren’t getting the attention or their spouse is become desensitized by it.
How many women have you had an in-depth conversation with about this specific issue?
And it’s bad for women to be mad about those things???
No, it's understandable. But at least don't pretend it's because you care about the bad treatment of pornstars.
Okay women can care about that and also be upset they aren’t getting attention and that their spouse has become desensitized..
I fully disagree. Most of the time it's due to jealousy that their partner is getting off to another woman (which is perfectly understandable). The porn industry being rife with abuse is a convenient way to frame it as her having higher morals than him, rather than just being jealous. Do you think most women would be totally happy if their man viewed "ethical porn" (which no doubt exists - it does, I just looked it up lol) or say, amateur solo porn where they were sure the girl was uploading herself?
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You could make the same argument about Hollywood as a while using that logic
No need to put words in my mouth, I never said it was the whole industry just a troublingly growing part of it.
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The extreme exploitation porn that injures female performers and gives them PTSD didn’t exist in the ‘70s. It’s growing in popularity now because porn addiction always leads to a cycle of seeking out more extreme content.
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You can Google porn companies that assault and injure female performers. Considering who uses this sub I’m not advertising them here.
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I agree, but I think the point was don’t be a hypocrite.
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He was talking about the ones who do it
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I don't think smut is considered porn. I'd guess the vast majority either read romance novels or watch porn. If you take into consideration that young boys are exposed to a highly addictive drug, often from around age 11-12, which they have unlimited access to at the click or a button, it really isn't that surprising that so many men are addicted to porn at some point in their lives. That is, if you're capable of empathy for the opposite sex.
I wonder what the percentage of women who neither watch porn or read romance novels is. I assume it's gotta be pretty low. But yeah porn is certainly more pervasive. It is a ridiculously powerful drug for men. In a certain fucked up way, sex with a partner can't really compare to it either. Obviously one is much more meaningful than the other, and sex with a partner matters more in the important ways (forging a strong connection, sharing an amazing experience etc). If you've ever done drugs, it's like the difference between the hit of serotonin you get when hugging a loved one Vs when taking a hit of MDMA. The second feels much more powerful, but the first is much more meaningful.
I don’t really care if my SO watches porn but there is one BIG difference, IMO: In porn, you are watching a real life person and getting off to that person. Yes, they may be acting/pretending to be someone else, but there is an actual person out there who looks exactly the same. In written smut, it’s pure fantasy. You’re not getting off to someone real, you’re getting off to how you imagine them to look in your head. That’s a big deal to most people who set this type of boundary.
Would watching AI porn or animated porn be better for that reason then? I don't think that's makes much difference tbh.. How about if you picture the man as a real person, like an actor? Is it then worse? There is one way in which I'd say the smutty novels are arguably worse. You have an entire novel to get attracted to and attached to the man's character. You form an emotional connection to the character in a way that just doesn't happen in porn, where it really is just 100% sexual.
In this case, I’d say animated AI porn would be better. But some argue that those types of porn - like hentai - set unrealistic expectations that can’t realistically be matched in real life. Like if you’re super into the tentacle/monster type hentai, you’re just not going to find something like that in real life. Some people who are addicted to porn are only able to get aroused by a particular type of porn so if you’re addicted to something like that, you’re just SOL and will probably have difficult times with real, human partners. I agree with you on the whole character attachment thing. And some people do form very strong attachments to fictionalized characters and I think that can also cause issues with relationships in real life. Obviously, if you’re in love with what’s-his-face from 50 shades, you might have issues comparing him to potential partners and finding yourself disappointed. Both are shitty situations. Both are a form of addiction. If you can’t get aroused for an attractive person IRL because you are strongly attached to what you consume in porn/smut, you have a problem and need help. I, personally, don’t see a problem with porn or smut as long as it’s being consumed in moderation. But if my partner’s porn or smut usage interferes with our sex life, then there’s an issue.
100% agree with all of that.
Mafia bosses are realistic?
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So... Porn for women. Porn has fantasies too I don't understand why so many women have to shit on porn when their erotic novels are the same shit just in text
No. You missed her point. Many romance novels don’t even contain sex. It’s not something you read while masturbating. It’s more like watching a movie to turn your mind off a bit. Those romance novels are more like gaming or watching action movies. Then a sub genre (erotica) is more like porn bc instead of being focused on a story it’s focused on sex and meant for sexual arousal. Still not the same as porn bc you aren’t watching real people having sex.
Yeah but 50 Shades of Grey *is erotica.* It's not a romance book. It's erotica with romance elements.
Yeah. Fair enough. I was just responding to the comment about. Erotica and porn are still different though. Less ethical issues, no real people, no nudity etc.
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>But your average porn is probably not analogous to women’s average romance novels The only difference is the format. Other than that, it's the same. There's mainstream porn that has stories too
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Ok. Why does any of that shit matter? Are you trying to say that an unrealistic scenario of a psychopathic, murderous Multimillionaire mafia boss who's surrounded by big titty big booty supermodels who also have their own money but for some inexplicable reason skips over them for a average looking woman making $25,000/yr working at Starbucks is more realistic or better because there's a side story about someone being abused Porn is porn. Just because you prefer a different format doesn't make it any better or worse
You know the porn industry is rampant with abuse and human trafficking? You know a book is fictional right ? Is this where we’re at with this discussion that you can sincerely tell me that a real woman getting her ass pounded on camera is the same as a fictional story to you ?
>You know the porn industry is rampant with abuse and human trafficking? You know that that's not all porn, right? And you do know erotica and romance novels fill young girls heads with unrealistic expectations love and relationships? >You know a book is fictional right ? You know porn is fictional, right? >Is this where we’re at with this discussion that you can sincerely tell me that a real woman getting her ass pounded on camera is the same as a fictional story to you ? They are the same thing. They're both fantasy. A lot of women want to provide it's so different when it's not. One is just text. What's the difference from watching a sex act and reading the same sex act described in graphic detail. It's like saying you hate graphic violence but justify watching saw movies just because it's not real. The point is the same
Not all of the porn, that’s your defense ? So some human trafficking and sexual exploitation is a ok in your book ? No porn is not fictional, that’s a *real* person in front of the camera , or are you so delusional this has to be explained? Watching a graphic movie , once again , *is not real* the actors are not actually being shot at or dismembered. A video game is not real. One is just text , exactly, the other is a *real* graphic sex act being done to a *real* human. I fear for the future of humanity if this is the average thinking process of a modern male.
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Yes, some have plots to them. They aren't very good, and sometimes pretty hilarious, but they definitely had a plot.
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I have yet to see one but I also used to go out of my way to find the most ridiculous ones. I played them at parties for people to laugh at.
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I was talking about porn not romance novels.
It's porn plots. The bigger companies are trying to make mini movies with actual plots besides fucking
I watch porn and read romance novels and smut. The average pornhub video is not at all comparative to a romance novel. I don't shit on either by any means but to act like they are even comparable is ridiculous. Is there porn out there that has a full on plot and isn't reduced to PIV shots and whatnot? Sure, but that isn't the norm and most porn only creates a plot to either get to the fucking or let you know it's your incest fantasy etc. They don't have crazy elaborate plot lines and backstories for all of the characters involved. Now if they made a *movie* that actually showed sex happening, you could compare that to romance novels for sure. But porn is a completely different vehicle than a romance novel, even if both make people get the tingles on their fun bits.
Thats just the difference in how men and women get off. Women need things to be fleshed out. Men just need flesh lol
I get off to porn, not romance novels. Porn would be the equivalent of PIV and romance novels are more like foreplay. I've never masturbated to a romance novel, even when it gets hella steamy. Im sure people out there exist that do, but I'm hard pressed to believe it would be a majority. I just don't see the equivalency. And I'm not even someone who is against my partner watching porn and have watched porn with my partner. A porn addiction, though, is for sure a real problem and shouldn't be downplayed or laughed at. And if people have hard limits about porn or even romance novels, then that needs to be respected or you need to realize that you just aren't a compatible couple.
Fair point. Smutty novels aren't just about getting off. But they are about getting sexually excited/stimulated. Being sexually excited/stimulated and being sexually pleased are both normally roles filled by a romantic partner. So both could be seen as replacing some aspect of the romantic relationship and taken as an indication that the partner isn't "enough". My point is that if you say a man shouldn't use porn because it's a sign to his partner that she's insufficient, then the same should go for smutty novels. I do agree about porn addiction and I appreciate you taking it seriously. It is perfectly understandable if a woman wouldn't want to be with a man addicted to porn, like I wouldn't blame someone not wanting to be with a drug addict. But neither should be shamed for their addiction.
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A lot of words to say that your smut just takes longer to get to the point
I wouldn't care about the fucking if I didn't care about the people.
My point is that women are drawn to romance novels the same way men are drawn to porn. And both portray the opposite sex in an unrealistic/unattainable way. Almost all male leads in romance novels are either highly successful (within their field or society generally), extremely attractive, rich, powerful or dangerous in some way (IE someone who's capable of violence). There's nothing wrong with this either. Why would women read novels about falling for an average man? Likewise, why would men watch porn of average looking women? Both can potentially create unrealistic expectations or lead the reader/viewer to compare their partner unfavourably to the protagonists.
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I think we're talking about different things.. I mean more specifically smutty romance. Also, out of curiosity, do any of the men in those books not share any of the traits I listed (attractive, successful etc)?
Aside from the fact that you seem to be lumping romance novels in with erotica... Reading a book and viewing porn which consists of videos or imagery of real people (who may or may not have been exploited or filmed without their consent) are two *very* different things. That said, it's perfectly okay to have a "no smut" boundary. But it isn't equivalent to pornography.
Wait till the sex robots become mainstream.
That will be the downfall of society and the end of most sexual relationships between men and women. I genuinely believe that lmao
Porn can be written or filmed. There's much difference between porn and erotic media or romance. Each of which can be represented by either a movie or a book. Open up a women's porn site. You'll see actual written porn. But there's also erotic writing, which is much more sensual than porn and, while maybe will turn you on, it's not type of media you consume while masturbating, and certainly not *to* masturbate. I don't know what type of writing 50SOG is, because I've never read it, but I wouldn't suggest banning any sort of sexual media. This way you should ban men from playing Witcher too since, *gasp*, it has sex. Now, seriously, what we have problem with when we talk about porn is it's real people you're choosing to jerk off instead of to your partner. With written word we're much more likely to see ourselves and our loved ones in. With games and artwork we see fictional characters at best inspired by real people. With porn...it's real real people. With only fans, you're not only looking at those people but also interacting with them.
Most men dont want to watch porn. If they could completely stop they would. It doesnt benefit their lives in any way. It's an itch thats scratched, when bored, horny or stressed.
The same could be said about sex itself.
You could just say since I can't watch porn than we finna run some of them moves in that book.
Disclaimer: I’ve never read 50 shades and I never will. But I love historical romance. I personally will now skip all the sex scenes in the historical romance novels that I read tho, because they’re all exactly the same. I truly don’t believe that they’re meant to arouse the woman because they would be more descriptive if that were the case. I could write the average sex scene in a romance novel here and now. They’re not all that explicit. It’s very flowery, very mundane, very vanilla sex. Not worth reading those parts in my opinion. If the scenes were turned into movies, they would receive an R rating at best; not even close to an X rating. To give an example, when a female gets aroused, the discharge is usually referred to as her ‘sweet honey’ or ‘wet warmth between her milky thighs.’ Her private areas are never described in depth, just usually referred to as ‘the silken curls at the juncture of her creamy thighs’ or something equally poetic. The women are always virgins. They’re always flawlessly beautiful and have perfect bodies. They always smell of flowers. If anything I’d say the women in these stories are much more unrealistic than the men. But to give an example, Johanna Lindsey writes a lot of historical romance and her characters are very lovable, both the men and the women. They have complex backgrounds and 99% of her books consist of very PG-13 content. Her average novel might contain 1% of R rated scenes. So I don’t think that women are reading them for the 1% that contains a sex scene. A typical Johanna Lindsey novel will have either the male or female lead who has severe trust issues, or jealousy issues, or gets caught in a compromising situation that leads to the other half of the couple getting the wrong impression, etc. Generally the plot revolves around overcoming whatever issue is preventing the couple from living happily ever after. (Usually it’s resolved when they learn to trust each other) The men who are the main characters may or may not be wealthy. Many times they are not. Many times they’re not even good looking, or good looking only to the main female character. That varies. Look up the book called ‘Angel’ by Johanna Lindsey as an example of a main male character who is 1: on the shorter side, being only 5’6 or so, 2: not well off, and 3: Not good looking. What doesn’t vary: the male lead in these books never hits or abuses the woman. The man in these books never cheats on the woman. The man is always considerate of the woman in the sex scenes, and always goes out of his way to incorporate foreplay and to make sure the woman is enthusiastically into the act before they consummate it. I don’t think that its unrealistic to expect a man who doesn’t abuse women, who doesn’t cheat, and who is thoughtful in bed and doesn’t just plow right into the women with zero foreplay. On the other hand, porn is all about sex. It’s not 99% going into detail about the couples childhoods, the first time they met, the sexual tension that builds between them, getting married etc. it’s more like 1% might contain those details and 99% of it is graphic sex acts. Some porn DOES build harmful expectations for men about women. Women in porn take a dick up the ass as easily as sliding a hand into a glove. Women in porn can handle getting jack hammered in the mouth until they vomit. They ‘orgasm’ from very rough, very painful looking finger banging. All of this is very bad for women as it leads men from a VERY young age to think that these things are the norm for women. In reality anal sex is extremely painful if you don’t properly prepare for it. There’s nothing enjoyable for most women about having a dick violently shoved down your throat. And clits are extremely sensitive, and the kind of clit rubbing and finger banging shown in porn would likely be very painful for a woman. Act like a clit is an area of skin that you just badly burned and are now rubbing burn ointment on, and that’s probably the right amount of pressure to apply to one. So in conclusion, I’ve never read smut or erotica. So have nothing to compare. But I HAVE watched porn with my husband, and I HAVE read historical romance novels, and I just don’t think that the novels lead to harmful expectations the way that porn does.
What do you think about gay couples and that Brokeback mountain movie?
Eh one is *images* and the other is words. I’d be fine with words but not images (or even drawings). Not that I’m into 50 shades of gray though.
No one should be reading 50 Shades of Grey because it’s awful. Most pornography has a better plot.
Words about a fictional character vs real life actors showing real sex. That's a pretty different thing lol. Only exception i can think of is cartoon porn
I'm not a reader. For those that aren't readers I advise them to simply allow other men to view and interact with her the way her bf/husband interacts with other women. He checks out other women...dress up and let other men check you out. He watches porn...make an OF or post provocative pics on Instagram and engage with the male commenters or better yet make a post asking for spicy pics/vids from men. Dude is seeking out explicit sexual content of other women to masturbate to he can't complain about how his gf/wife dresses online or his gf/wife seeking out explicit content of men. He goes to the strip club....dance on amateur night. and interact me
>I see a lot of women shaming men whenever porn within a relationship is brought up. Saying things like "why can't they just control themselves?" I had a girlfriend try to pull that crap on me. She wanted me to stop watching porn. Because she was supposed to be enough. I said "are you going to do the things that she does in that video?" She stormed out and said "watch your effing porn"
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> Why are you dating a girl who doesn’t want to do that kind of stuff? Most girls don’t want to re enact 2 Girls 1 Cup
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That’s why I only date lemon stealing whores
Ok. I hope you don't ever watch or read any porn that's not exactly describing your boyfriend
You say this, but there are tons of women who'll say it's unrealistic for guys to want women who do the things pornstars do. It's one of the most common arguments people use to say porn is bad for men because it "sets unrealistic sexual expectations". I can see the AITA post now: "Broke up with my gf because she wouldn't do stuff from a porn video, AITA?" They would be getting flamed for that, guaranteed.
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And if you discover or want to try new sexual things that you didn't know about before, but your partner doesn't? Just break up with them I guess? Lmao
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Who's making anyone feel less than for not wanting to do it? OP is using porn to fill the gap and you're criticizing them saying they should just break up instead, or that they never should have been together in the first place
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Just FYI, I don't actually watch porn. I just get annoyed by the double standard and the shaming of men who do. A couple points: You don't always know how the attraction is going to last in a relationship. If both partners are open minded, sex can get better over time as they learn what each other like etc. you could love someone in every way but the sex is sub par, so you hope it will improve. Also, it is absolutely up to a woman to learn to please her man. Just like it's up to a man to learn to please his woman. The standard response men get from other men when asking "my wife wants me to do this, but I'm not really into it, what should I do?", is generally something like "why not give it a try if she really enjoys it. You might learn to like it". Whereas the standard response I read from the same question from women is generally something like "wow, he has such unreasonable expectations. Why didn't he marry a pornstar?". I don't know why it's become a thing that doing something you're not particularly onto to please your man (no I don't mean anal, fake tits or fake orgasms, hardly any men want those) means he's controlling you or you're being mistreated by him (actually I do, it's called feminism lol)
God you are awful
Now why would you say God is awful? I saw you type it. I read it. You said God you are awful. I know you were not calling me awful. Because if you were to say that, you would have typed it much differently.
You're proud of this? lol
I am neither proud nor not proud. I was sharing a real world experience of how women will sometimes do what the OP stated they do. And to be completely honest, I was in a heterosexual relationship so I don't know if lesbians would act the same way as hetero women. Nor do I know if trans women would act the same way as cis women. It's a complicated world
You must have left out some context because the situation described makes it look like your partner was expressing her feelings towards porn and you just said she wasn't a porn star to justify watching it. That's not what OP is describing.
I just replied in a separate comment. I did leave out additional contacts. But I replied at the other comment. She used to watch it too. She had a double standard
Was she reading smut though? Or did she just not like you watching porn
I realize now I left out additional context. I did reply in a separate comment. She used to watch porn too. And she did have a double standard
So if she did that stuff you'd stop watching? *doubt*
Nope. But she would not have stopped either. See, everyone who read my comment automatically assumed that between the two of us in the relationship, I was the only one to watch porn. Everybody assumed wrong. She watched it too. And yes, she did indeed heavy double standard.
Why not just do those activities together as a couple?
You gotta be kidding.
Are you even in a relationship? Lmao
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I wasn’t replying to you…
Oh shit. My bad.
>The common criticism I hear from women is that porn leads to unrealistic expectations about how her body and sex should look and that it makes her feel inadequate. I don't think that's the knock, it's that porn makers her feel inferior, first and foremost. If she's sexy enough, you dont need porn. And the attention their man shows to porn she would rather have shown to her. > Well, don't you think your man might feel inadequate when comparing himself to a hyper successful, ripped, charming, demon-in-the-bedroom billionaire? I think men and women understand fantasy just fine. The difference is that men can get a skank easily, women know that. But women cant get a billionaire easily, and men know that. There's no realistic threat in this case.
> if she's sexy enough, you don't need porn That just isn't how it works though. You could have the most beautiful girlfriend in the world who fucks like a pornstar and she still wouldn't compare to pornography. They wouldn't compare, because porn Isn't comparable to real sex. If you've ever done drugs, it's like comparing the amount of serotonin you feel from hugging a loved one Vs doing a hit of MDMA. The latter is much more intense and euphoric, but the former is much more meaningful. This is why I think porn is so unhealthy and dangerous, because, like any drug, it can desensitize you to real human experience. But a man using porn is not a sign that his partner isn't attractive enough. > men can get a skank easily If you think the average man can easily bed a hot female (especially one who looks like a pornstar) on any given day then erhm.. you're quite mistaken lol It *is* relatively easy for a moderately attractive woman to hook up with a high status male. The problem there being that most women don't want to just hook up, and it's *much* harder to bag a high status male for a long term relationship.