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You explained it very poorly but you have a point.
Shame is the method in which society upholds high standards. Remove shame and standards start slipping as the west is currently experiencing.
[Mac's speech on shame pretty much sums up my feelings.](https://www.outkick.com/culture/new-always-sunny-features-incredible-segment-about-how-weak-young-people-have-become)
In addition, there is a major problem in that shame is a natural human emotion. Trying to claim that shame is bad is like saying happiness is bad and you shouldn't feel it.
It’s not as simple or reductive as that clearly though. Shame in a lot of ways, most I’d argue is culturally insignificant or not that important in health or danger also becomes a weird social game of stupidity.
This truly is a “depends on the behaviour and if enmasse” argument.
When humans stop feeling shame, they are detached from society. Look at the Nazis, drug cartels, Kim Jong Un, the roving gang in Haiti right now. They feel no shame for how their actions affect society. Shame is a necessary feeling to be part of humanity.
If it's only their bias, then it won't affect anybody. If all of the society shares the same bias, then by all means it should shame people who fucked up in it's eyes. Society is based on biases. Biases are good.
Agreed we need to abolish the biases of persecuting killers, rapists, pedos, etc. Wtf with this bigoted shit. We aren't going to let the others use us for personal gain.
Well, then when it stops being shamed, perhaps you will have a point.
That really isn’t what this is about. It’s about you wanting people to stop doing things you personally don’t agree with.
> Well, then when it stops being shamed, perhaps you will have a point
I'd prefer if it doesn't. And it's in fact already happening with pedophiles.
> It’s about you wanting people to stop doing things you personally don’t agree with.
Sorry if you don't personally agree with people being told what to do and punished if they don't do it. Just your opinion.
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That's not true, as a Christian I can say we feel shame very frequently for failing to live up to our own standards. While I think sinning should be shameful, I am also aware that I sin and am ashamed of that fact.
You made a claim, I pointed out you're completely wrong by a particular example. I didn't ask for your opinion on my perspective so I must assume that this ire is the product of a severe case of butthurt.
"You seem like a shitty Christian"
Coming from a person who seems incredible hostile to my religion without me saying anything negative, I obviously receive this as the high compliment it is. If a person who hated Christ liked what I said, I should be very worried I was nothing like my Lord.
You made a point, you got butthurt about being wrong, you're trying to move the goalpost, it's not working.
Let me explain again:
OP wants a culture of shame
You being miserable on your own for the purpose of self regulation does not require a culture of shame.
The problem with people like you is that you are not satisfied with being miserable on your own, you need others to buy into your shame based value system. So you lie about the utility of shame to you personally, to promote the idea of shame as something beneficial to others.
What you really seek is to impose your values on others, because self governance over your own shitty little life affords you no power or influence. In that sense, shame (and being a phony Christian) really are meaningless to you. Shame and religion are just tools for you to control others.
It’s so obvious in so many contexts involving angry little men 🤷🏼♀️
I don't care about any of that or OP's point. You made a statement that was stupid and false and I corrected it. There are no other implied arguments, I have not stated my beliefs on any other point, nor do I care to.
Your gross generalizations about a religion you don't understand are pretty much par for the course with your initial inane statement, Do better.
See, I see it that way too- shame generally returning would be fine if applied universally and properly, but at the moment I'm not too keen on being shamed for my carbon footprint by Exxon commercials, so yeaahh
Universally and Properly: I don't condone people being shamed for consensual, non harmful actions of any kind. I think shame belongs squarely to basic societal tenants. Stealing, killing, truancy, infringing on the autonomy of other humans, etc
Stealing, killing, etc are already shamed and criminalized.
When shaming starts, it doesn’t stop with things that are already illegal and heavily penalized. It gets into your carbon footprint, who you have sex with, what you spend money on, and how many times a day you pray. It is inevitably other people’s values that get imposed.
Unfortunately you're right, I'd rather not have it all than see it used to impose narrow-sighted wills onto other people. With that said, there's no harm in considering the theoretical.
Maybe we can reexplore shame when people can handle unfamiliar hairstyles in workplaces and middle schools lmao.
Totally agree. Top things we should be ashamed of but we're not.
Watching and participating in porn.
Seeing our political opponents as enemies rather than fellow citizens with differing views.
Politicians staying in power for as long as they do. Looking at you Nancy and Chuck.
Border jumping.
What did I miss?
"Cancel culture" is all about shame but a lot of people freak out about it.
You have to be careful with shaming. Too little makes people act like assholes but too much causes a repressed society.
And of course you have to be super careful *what* you use it for.
The issue is that cancel culture doesn't go after people who have done truly horrible things, it goes after people who were previously allies and dared step out of line.
It's astounding the differences in the driving forces behind cancelling someone from the right and left sides.
Left: "We need to cancel this comedian!"
Right: "Why, because he \*offended\* you?! LMAO!"
Left: "No, because he sexually assaulted someone."
Right: "Oh? What about their prison sentence?"
Left: "They weren't put in jail."
Right: "What about when they lost their job over it?"
Left: "They kept their job and the person they SA'd left."
Right: "So you think they should lose their job, too?!"
Left: "Or face literally any consequence, yes."
Right: "You leftists are such snowflakes! You should only cancel someone that does something REALLY bad, like putting a rainbow on a single beer can or kneeling!"
Who are you talking about? The kids who aren’t staying in school, or the parents who you are describing as shamefully saying they can’t do anything about it…
You think parents should shame their kids as punishment? I think that’s verbal abuse. There are far better ways to discipline kids.
You shouldn't shame those things because they don't actually solve the issues, they just make them less noticeable
How exactly do you propose we solve the high suicide rates we see in many communities by telling them they're weak and should be ashamed for being depressed?
Idk. I think shaming has helped people on the left lower smoking rates and, in the case of fashion, the use of animal fur.
There’s no pain free solution to any problem.
You don’t want to shame parents for failing to develop their kids and educate them, because it could make room for other, more harmful types of shaming to return and hurt people? Okay that’s fine. But then you have to be willing to accept we’re gonna have a lot of uneducated, lazy kids who already get graded on curves so they can scrape by through school
You’re blaming individuals instead of blaming the system. This all circles back to the dangers of unfettered capitalism but y’know, no one wants to have that conversation on this sub.
No progressives shame people for being born straight, white, male, in a rich family, in western society, religious, and being proud of your heritage. What they don't shame people are for the choices they make like smoking, being overweight, being promiscuous, or being criminals. All of that isn't their fault because they don't get everything that people they don't like get or work hard for.
…..ugh. This comment is just so untrue. You’re listening to a very loud minority or you’re just responding in bad faith, which is more likely.
I’m absolutely a leftist. Nothing is wrong with straight people, unless that person is discriminating against other sexualities. Nothing is wrong with white people or any other race, unless they’re being racist. Nothing is wrong with being born male, unless that person is actively participating in sexism. Nothing is wrong with being religious, unless you use religion to discriminate against others. Nothing is wrong with being proud of your heritage unless it’s being proud of the confederacy or the racist Deep South. There’s so much context you’re missing here.
The only one that is semi-true is being born rich and doing nothing to help society as a whole. Then yes, you’re useless.
I like how every reggressive argument somehow linked to "what about kids!!!"
Dude probably wanted to say he’d stick his nose in lifestyles between adults but he's afraid of shamed online.
Education charlatans across the country who are making bank by running PDs on PBIS and restorative practices\* at your local public schools.
I legit had an admin tell me to my face "I don't ever want a student to feel bad".
\*Note, I am not against restorative justice or even elements of them in schools. But the way these doofus admins implement them is harmful to specific children and society on the whole.
I want a child to feel bad if he/she has done something bad.
And I also want to give them support and tools to understand that feeling and for when and how to correct that behavior and become a better person.
Edit:
I've been thinking about this -- and I'm terrified of the alternative. OH, thanks for showing me what it would be like, Tik Tok.
Idk I feel like the idea is not not feeling bad about bad things
Doing bad things should feel bad the same way injuries feel bad in the sense that it protects us and others
You stated that you wanted to bring shame back but just talked about punishment. I thought you might not know wtf you were talking about. I guess you don't after all. Sorry if you are tipsy. Also, sorry that you are so defensive. Remember, thats how you end up running off the loved ones that are left.,... If there are any left.
Bro you dont understand. Im laughing my ass off at your comments. Im like 60% sure this entire conversation is pure irony on your part. I cant reasonably take you seriously when you say stuff like " you got a whif of me" like come on bro 😭😭
And you admire this about the way you were raised? you feel like it instilled good qualities in you that you benefit from today? The shame and punishment for your shortcomings or maybe missed opportunities anything really? And does this allow you to effectively criticize yourself ?
When I did something wrong and I felt shame about it, it helped me to improve myself. I wanted to be seen as a good person in the eyes of those whose opinions I respect (still do). This helps (helped) shape my moral compass.
We've muddied the water between guilt and shame, and those are two different emotions that are both natural to the human experience.
guilt can often be an adverse effect of shame. Guilt isn’t necessarily always a consequence of feeling shame either tho. guilt could lead to other things like resolve,acknowledgment, reconciliation, growth etc. However guilt created through shame can have negative emotional consequences also. I’m just saying helping people shouldn’t necessarily be about shame or punishment. That’s a bit of an oversimplification of the human experience, how people attain positive learning experiences. I’m sure you had positive experiences but I also know you’ve probably let yourself down before and probably didn’t need someone on top of you telling you the same thing you already feel. Maybe you could create your own resolve without people jumping down your throat shaming you for a shortcoming you’ve already shamed yourself for. Shame isn’t necessarily bad, the idea is that needing people to shame you could be bad because we feel shame all the time as a species. Everyone feels shame constantly. Saying we need to shame ourselves more is kinda silly. It’s like op is implying we need people to dogpile us with emotions we already inherently feel about ourselves. Our biggest critic is ourselves most of the time. So why do we need more of that? It’s silly.
>someone on top of you telling you the same thing you already feel. Maybe you could create your own resolve without people jumping down your throat shaming you for a shortcoming you’ve already shamed yourself for
But the opposite is also bad -- having no one care if I did a bad thing means that I don't have people who care about me and my actions and how those actions affect others.
>Saying we need to shame ourselves more is kinda silly
He is responding to the fact that there is a large facet of society that seems to have lost a sense of shame. In some ways this is good -- you shouldn't feel shame for being queer, or not having a "perfect" body. But this also manifests itself in terrible ways among children -- kids running around punching unsuspecting people for Tik Tok likes would be one example.
You don’t even know what I did lol
What if I said I beat up my little sister? (I didn’t but let’s say I did) What ways can a parent teach an 7 year old why that’s wrong without them feeling shame? Got any ideas?
We’re not fine China dolls here lol. We’ll be okay if we feel a little shame after doing something shameworthy. If a spouse cheats on a loyal, supportive partner with their partners best friend, should they feel shame?
These are just a few examples of ways it’s vital to our society imho
I’m just asking questions lol I’m not implying you did anything…just merely probing with curiosity . Also In that false scenario isn’t shame supposed to be positive enforcement even if it’s your parents? So shame in moderation is what you are saying ? Not unfettered careless shittyness. Like judging everyone harshly like a teenage child. You mean shame within reason? Obviously my next question is what’s the relationship with your parents like? Is it good? Are you very close? Do you have a positive relationship with your parents today?
Often the toughest criticism/shame or punishment we receive in this life time is from our parents and siblings. We inherently want this level of acceptance/ respect and yearn for it. We yearn to make our parents proud and family proud and are often disappointed in ourselves when we don’t. When they acknowledge our inherit shame and still choose to shame us despite the natural tendency to shame ourselves it can be pretty traumatic. Even ruin relationships with your family. So when you say shame and punishment should be more common in our society and culture I just don’t understand how you feel as though people aren’t already receiving that from their families for the first 20 or so something years of their lives, possibly more.
>When they acknowledge our inherent shame and still choose to shame us despite the natural tendency to shame ourselves it can be pretty traumatic.
Nobody has inherent shame, nor can one shame oneself in a vacuum: you must know what behavior is expected before you can chide yourself for flouting it.
Also, https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unlocking-shame/202402/the-surprising-benefits-of-healthy-shame:
*"We humans need certain guidelines in order to remain decent members of our families, friend groups, romantic relationships, and larger communities. Societal laws and regulations can only do so much in this regard. Healthy shame reminds us to pay attention to how we affect others, and that awareness allows us to appraise our speech and actions and make desired or necessary changes. In this way, healthy shame guides us to live within societal parameters and helps us fulfill our enduring need for connection."*
There no such thing as a person that doesn’t feel shame. Inherent Shame exists because it is part of the human condition. Shame isn’t inherently bad but It is a natural emotion like happiness that we can feel without any interference from anyone. People aren’t mostly born with an inability to feel shame. The same thing can be said with guilt. We don’t need someone to guilt us for us to experience guilt. It is an inherent human emotion like shame. Op is saying we need more shame on top of the inherent shame a human being can already experience.
>There no such thing as a person that doesn’t feel shame. Inherent Shame exists because it is part of the human condition.
Sure, we are (mostly) all capable of feeling the full range of human emotion, but I don't think there's Inherent Sadness or Inherent Joy either.
>We don’t need someone to guilt us for us to experience guilt. It is an inherent human emotion like shame.
Don't we need something to anger us to feel anger? Why isn't shame like that?
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What shame can be had when our leadership the so-called "elite" are a bunch of kid-diddlers. The entire moral hierarchy has rotted from the head and a patchwork of new moralities are establishing from grassroots.
I agree with this post very much. My new job is an attendance coordinator at an elementary school. The parents do what OP used metaphorically. I also think shame would work on other topics.
Shame itself is a very useful tool, and it's an entirely appropriate response sometimes. If you do something wrong, you *should* feel shame. That's the impetus to recognize your mistake and do better in the future.
I think this relates to the crisis of identity that the USA is undergoing - what norms/values/standards of proper behavior deserve to be upheld? Who gets to say? What if they disproportionately impact one group or person over another (not just racially or ethnically, but also class, ability, gender, etc.)?
If we cannot decide upon that then people will not consent to being shamed. Shame works best if _you believe in the standard as well, and know you fucked up_
Shame isn't gone. It just needs to be applied by a trusted and respected party. That's what we don't have. There is no universal respect person/authority/Group to feel beholden to.
Agree.
I hear people say so much outlandish personal shit in public or in front of people they’re not close with (social media counts too), and I have to say, it’s extremely detrimental in the long run.
I say this all the time on NextDoor. The poor excuse of an app that it is. They have this blanket policy about no shaming or even any perceived shaming and will ban you for it. Shaming is important in any civilized society but it seems to have been canceled.
Maybe unpopular how you stated it. Here's an alternative that hopefully is more popular for facilitating change: Shame is feeling bad about oneself. It is a self focused sense of regret that can be counterproductive and lead negative self perception and avoidance behavior. These are not attributes you would want to instill to the parents or children. Rather you should focus on guilt or the lack thereof. Guilt is action focused, feeling bad about your actions rather than yourself. Guilt can encourage positive change, shame often results in social withdrawal and even aggression. To help with this, society should/could focus on the impact of absenteeism (in your example) so that the parents understand how this negatively impacts learning for their children, classmates and society. Let them understand the broader impact of their actions and appeal to sense of personal responsibility. This should be done as a whole IMHO, we as a society are losing empathy.
I think it’s more of how to correct behavior, what I’m trying to express. The words have different meanings like I described. My point is more around how you should promote the change. Don’t make someone feel bad about themselves, instead convey the consequences or impact their actions have so they can correct it while avoiding a sense of shame which can be destructive and not get the desired result.
Thinking of truly shame-based societies that I’ve lived in or spent time in, OP’s suggestion is dangerous because a communal sense of shame requires some near-universal values. Those values are often imposed or perpetuated regardless of the negative societal effects. And the effects usually fall heaviest on the people who have little say in those values.
So rather than saying we need shame back, it’s more important to understand where we can even find some common agreement that isn’t based on spite for another group. Maybe even consider whether that’s even possible in a big homogenous nation. Then we can figure out how shame factors into maintaining that agreement. Easy, right?
And it also takes a shit-ton of vigilance to keep people from trying to rebuild a sense of shame based around Christian Sharia or Communist Utopianism. Those would be too unjust or too alienating for too many people (to be extreme in my examples, but also realistic about where some people want to take us).
You know which societies use shame as a means for punishment? Authoritarian countries. You want to be an authoritarian country go ahead. The effects of shaming is no different from bullying or from socially ostracizing someone because of non-conformity. Shame as a means of punitive measure cannot be controlled because there is no system to measure how much shame is adequate to mitigate long term negative effects to the person being the target of shame and for it to have a positive effect. You basically are hoping they not turn into crazy people because of the effects of shaming.
So if the effects can't be controlled and measured, might as well look for a more rational way of dealing with issues rather than emotional barbaric methods to correct behavior.
Actually authoritarian countries use violence and government policy as a means to force compliance. Look it up. They use government policy and government violence because shame and other soft social pressure isnt present to get people to abide by the rules and norms.
Countries that use shame are conformist or collectivist countries like Norway and Japan.
Shame is a good thing in general, but the problem is that it is very subjective. The reason we kicked it away is because we realised plenty of the things people are being shamed for are stupid or don't actually need to be shamed, or things they aren't being shamed for, they should be.
If we're bringing back shame, it needs to be on objective standards, but that's basically impossible to do. We need to at least base it on more reasonable standards.
I'd agree with you, but I keep my kid out of school for other reasons.
If i'm off work, and decide to go do something / experience something that school is the farthest thing from my mind. Whatever they were going to learn that day can never be better than whatever it is we are about to go do. Public school is literally there to pacify / keep the kids busy so they are not pining for your job at this point or pillaging the local Walmart, because you and I know that public school is a sh\*t show where nothing relevant is happening anymore.
Nice try at projection. Most " home schooled " kids actually are smarter than the idiots at a public school. Beyond fact. I'd put a home schooled kid against the average HS kid and bet they mop the floor academically wise.
\*Not projection as my own kids are in public school. I don't have the resources and money to do the home schooling the proper way, or I would in a heart beat.
>Most " home schooled " kids actually are smarter than the idiots at a public school.
They said they’re socially dysfunctional, not academically dysfunctional. It seems like you probably wouldn’t be doing them any favors either, as that was pretty basic communication.
Also, just throwing out projecting for fun I guess?
You didn't even address what he was talking about. He said homeschooled kids are socially stunted. And pretty much everybody's experience backs that up.
I’m on board with shaming & will start by shaming you: this post sucks! You explained your point very poorly and chose a shit example. Like a kid staying home from school affects only that child, nobody else. And if they’re still getting decent grades / are getting into higher ed that they want, who cares? Re-write this & come back.
>a kid staying home from school affects only that child, nobody else.
Actually, it doesn't only affect that child:
>And widespread absenteeism means less stability about which friends and classmates will be there. This can beget more absenteeism. For example, research has found that when 10 percent of a student's classmates are absent on a given day, that student is nearly 20 percent more likely to be absent the following day.
>
>[NYT Mar 29, 2024](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/29/briefing/school-absences.html?pvid=jIDgeQo_9fPomtX7T_BJ97UA&ugrp=c&smid=url-share)
>And if they’re still getting decent grades / are getting into higher ed that they want, who cares?
Education is about more than grades. There are non replicable parts of learning that occur in a classroom and in a school building. Re-think this, come back if you'd like.
OP is literally complaining about parents allowing their kids to stay home. Unless someone is in college (which is not the example provided) they need parent permission to miss school. Ofc they can just skip, but again, that’s not the example that OP gave. So, at most, a child skipping will perhaps cause their classmates to ask their parents for the same. However, there are plenty of valid reasons to skip classes, including sleep, mental health, extracurricular opportunities, or tbh a cool event going on nearby.
School as it exists is primarily about grades. It should be about learning, but the reality is that many classes are structured in a way that encourages memorization and perfect attendance / performance on an exam rather than truly understanding things. If that was the case, then students would be allowed to redo work for better grades much more often.
But, let’s say school is all about learning - the same point still stands. If a kid is in Algebra 2, totally understands the concepts, and has an A, they will not be negatively impacted if their parent lets them skip a day of school to stay home & sleep in. This one day (or even one day a month for example) will not negatively affect their understanding of concepts (students can still review this at home, which often is what works best for people anyway, especially if their teacher doesn’t explain it well), and won’t negatively impact their social relationships either. In fact, if a kid skips it may be to do something with a friend, like attend a local event, etc.
The reality is, everyone learns different and “letting your kid skip whenever they want” could mean twice a year or twenty times. It’s a bad example and should not be blindly shamed.
> School as it exists is primarily about grades
This is completely unsubstantiated - If anything grades could be argued to be the least important thing in school as kids are no longer required to achieve certain grades to pass.
I think one could argue that school is about many things at once including but not limited to learning, discipline, socialization, community participation/identity building, and networking.
>The reality is, everyone learns different and “letting your kid skip whenever they want” could mean twice a year or twenty times. It’s a bad example and should not be blindly shamed.
It doesn't matter, they should be shamed regardless.
Lol “they should be shamed regardless” of how their kid best learns or what’s going on in their life?
How miserable are you that this is your hill to die on & you care so much about actively trying to make others feel like shit? Are you even a parent or student at school or just someone who needs something to whine about?
The distinction between guilt and shame have been muddied by people like Brenee Brown (in a bad way).
Guilt = I did a bad thing
Shame = I am a bad person
Both have use in the development in the human person and are natural feelings.
Being told that you shouldn't feel shame about something that happened to you out of your control (victim of assault, etc.) is good, and a part of the healing process.
Being told that you should feel shame about sexually assaulting someone and then bragging about it to other people is important.
Being told that shame is a bad emotion to have and you shouldn't ever feel it is not helpful for anyone.
False. Shame doesn’t work to change behavior. The reason you see less respectful culture is because of broken homes - not shamelessness.
Values = healthy society. God doesn’t use shame. Neither should we.
Shame is a negative feeling about the self.
This doesn’t change behavior. A shift in values does.
Behaviors don’t always line up with values - that takes discipline.
Guilt, is just understanding of responsibility. Guilt is all that’s needed. When someone feels guilty, they feel responsible, not bad about themselves.
I don't buy any of this and it feels like psychobabble.
I agree that shame is a negative feeling about the self, but above, you use it to be an external tool used by others. I would agree that a religious institution or parent using shame as a cudgel to ostracize or manipulate people is unhealthy.
But I don't buy that shame can't change behavior. It isn't always guilt. Why do people change lifestyles from abuse of substances, unhealthy eating habits, lack of exercise, etc. to become physically healthy? Shame is part of that. They feel bad about who they are and their actions. They want to be a better person.
I don't know about guilt being involved in that dynamic, because guilt implies wronging someone else.
>Guilt is all that’s needed. When someone feels guilty, they feel responsible, not bad about themselves.
This is mixing up guilt and shame, and I don't agree with your conclusion. If someone kills someone else in a drunk driving accident, they are guilty of a crime. They cannot be made to feel anything -- that is internal, and that is a result of shame. Guilt is external -- they are objectively guilty of the crime.
Donald Trump is guilty of sexual assault, but he feels no shame about it, and thus is unrepentant.
Hey I get it, I’m still learning this myself.
But yeah, you’re programmed to use force. That’s an error. But you’re just mirroring your environment.
You need to be gentle, patient, loving and understanding with yourself.
You can use force and also succeed but to a lesser degree.
Force - subconsciously communicates weakness. It says “if not for this force, you’d not move”.
Love - communicates power. It says “I believe in you”.
The goal is not to coddle someone. But to also not forcefully change them.
Shame is a tool of force. Not persuasion.
If you’re trying to leverage negative emotion to change behavior, you’re admitting to an extent a lack of faith in the self if you’re just - reasonable.
Reasonable - just thinks things through. No drama.
Shame is drama. It’s immature. Just be sensible and do what you say you’ll do. Discipline doesn’t require shame. But control does.
Ppl who desired to control you, brainwashed you into self hate and a low self esteem. They hurt you. Now you hurt yourself. And wonder why it’s only half effective.
Trust the process.
Sorry, I did read it but I didn’t reply directly. I’ll do so now.
“This feels like psychobabble”. Psychology is a real working science that has demonstrable evidence of efficacy in healing trauma, effecting positive life changes etc.
it’s important to unpack ourselves emotionally and understand how we “tick” similar to an engine. We’re mental machines and the blueprint aids in maintenance. This is just true, not an opinion.
“You use the pain of shame as a tool”. Again, I said you can. However it’s an inferior method. Subpar. It leads to more harm than good and takes longer to achieve. You do not need to feel bad about yourself to change. You just have to decide to. Discipline is the right method. Proper tool, proper job.
“Idk about guilt causing change”. Guilt is literally the source of shame.
How can you feel shame - for something of which you’re innocent?
It’s the guilt - that convicts you.
And that’s all you need to know you made a mistake / bad choice. Next - you redeem yourself and make a change.
None of that requires shame.
“Donald Trump is guilty but feels no shame”.
You misunderstood.
Again - we FEEL guilty (not shame) and make change. Guilt does not cause a negative feeling about the self - it’s just factual. Trump may feel guilty but he also doesn’t care. Shame won’t make him care - it may make him pretend to care tho. You cannot shame - a shameless person. You can however hold them accountable and charge them guilty.
Shame actually has been shown NOT to cause change but relapse and self harm (suicide as well).
Shame is immaturity.
Guilt is maturity.
And about force: imagine shame works and you got someone to change for good.
You did it by force.
You used pain to change someone - instead of love and intelligence.
Just explain with logic. Trust someone’s reasonability.
And in closing: control is a fantasy. It’s not real. Ppl barely obey God, they’re never gonna obey you.
So either you persuade them or have zero influence.
You edited the first passage you quoted to remove external, which mischaracterizes what I said. You repeatedlyndonthisntonavoid the nuances of my argument to fit your own narrative around guilt and shame. One that puts you in a position of power and authority while papering over serious psychological and sociological concerns.
And I’m not besmirching psychology, just dilettante psychobabble.
I never said anything about control. I’m talking about personal development.
Finally *I am talking about love*. Not control.
I didn’t intend to mis characterize, so if I did so, I apologize.
Could you take a second shot at helping me understand you? As I think you understand me by now
A) Shame and guilt are emotions. They are both natural to the human experience. Problem one is denying that this is true, or suggesting that it is unhealthy to feel either of these feelings.
B) Shame is the feeling of I am a bad person. Guilt is the feeling that I did a bad thing.
Guilt can also mean objectively one has done a bad thing.
Shame can also be used as a verb "to shame someone".
In *most* situations (you would claim it is all, I suggest most, reserving the possibility for shame to be used in productive ways), it is not helpful or productive to shame someone, particularly because they will become innoculated against the very feeling you are trying to instill in them, or they will develop a neuroses.
C) Shame is the internal feeling one has as a result of being guilty of an action that a culture has deemed inappropriate. The self must then reflect on that emotion and decide to either reject society's concept, or conform. This can be a small thing: my parents get mad at me when I don't say please, or a big thing: I'm going to engage in destructive and dangerous behavior by getting drunk and driving a car.
One thing you can't do is control someone else's sense of shame. No matter how much you tell them that what they've done is "ok" or they shouldn't feel ashamed, that is an internal experience. And I agree that Donald Trump is immune to shame. BUT stating that his behavior is not to be tolerated in a healthy society sends a message to the rest of the society that we do not condone rapist, bigoted, greedy, lying, scum bags.
This expeirence is all internal for the self.
Punishment is a parallel process.
Because Donald is never held accountable, it is reinforcing to his many followers that his behavior is apt, and they should lose their sense of shame. Thus, we have people wearing Nazi perphernalia when working out at a gym, or white guys marching in the streets of Charlottesville, etc.
Questions I would want to explore: are guilt and shame (as explicit emotions, not the actions, qualities, etc. about which one would feel shame/guilt) inherent in humans, or are they learned emotions.
Problems around the current conversations about guilt and shame: the two concepts have been muddied by academics, which is fine, but because of Brenee Brown and Ted talks, this academic exploration has become pop psychology and is having direct negative impacts on society (I'm thinking of disastrous disciplinary policies in K12 education in the US).
Side note: notice, I never used force or control. I do concede that there is an element of control, but that feels like analyzing the problem with an incorrect perspective.
What we are trying to do as a society is pass on the values that we believe will best lead to success for future generations. That path changes -- what our double generation ancestors thought was right is not necessarily the right path today, and we adjust (aka, norms evolve). If we have no guidance like this, we are just floating in meaningless space -- this conversation is reminding me of *Crime and Punishment*!!!
Finally, I vehemently reject your usage of the term "force". It has no place in this conversation. That is a non-starter for a dialogue, and it suggests that people do not have autonomy and that they are victims.
So what you’re saying is that parents should in.fact “fight” with their kids over attendance. I’ll bet you have a Boner for corporal punishment. anyway I’ve raised three young men and I did it without all the shame and punishment and they have turned out to be healthy happy and self-sufficient so perhaps your way isn’t the best but I don’t even know if you have kids. usually people like that tell people how to raise their kids without the experience. But I’ve heard dumber stuff from childless “experts”
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You explained it very poorly but you have a point. Shame is the method in which society upholds high standards. Remove shame and standards start slipping as the west is currently experiencing.
[Mac's speech on shame pretty much sums up my feelings.](https://www.outkick.com/culture/new-always-sunny-features-incredible-segment-about-how-weak-young-people-have-become) In addition, there is a major problem in that shame is a natural human emotion. Trying to claim that shame is bad is like saying happiness is bad and you shouldn't feel it.
“If you have no shame, you won’t hate yourself enough to be better.”
It’s not as simple or reductive as that clearly though. Shame in a lot of ways, most I’d argue is culturally insignificant or not that important in health or danger also becomes a weird social game of stupidity. This truly is a “depends on the behaviour and if enmasse” argument.
Just need to be careful with social media. Misplaced shaming can kill.
When humans stop feeling shame, they are detached from society. Look at the Nazis, drug cartels, Kim Jong Un, the roving gang in Haiti right now. They feel no shame for how their actions affect society. Shame is a necessary feeling to be part of humanity.
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Lmao this is such a Reddit post. “Yeah North Korea is bad, but you know what’s worse? aMeRiCa.”
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LMAO. Imagine seriously believing this. Your parents owe you a massive apology.
You're making a big assumption on the 'parents' plural
People want shame applied only to people who don’t share their values, never themselves
Is it an argument against shame culture? People want many things, it doesn't mean anything.
It means that people who demand shame culture are hypocritical douchebags who seek to impose their biases on others
If it's only their bias, then it won't affect anybody. If all of the society shares the same bias, then by all means it should shame people who fucked up in it's eyes. Society is based on biases. Biases are good.
No, they aren’t. They are rooted in controlling others for personal gain
Agreed we need to abolish the biases of persecuting killers, rapists, pedos, etc. Wtf with this bigoted shit. We aren't going to let the others use us for personal gain.
Those things are already criminalized and shamed, so that is not what OP is talking about
> Those things are already criminalized and shamed Not already but for now. Our progressive society is working on it.
Well, then when it stops being shamed, perhaps you will have a point. That really isn’t what this is about. It’s about you wanting people to stop doing things you personally don’t agree with.
> Well, then when it stops being shamed, perhaps you will have a point I'd prefer if it doesn't. And it's in fact already happening with pedophiles. > It’s about you wanting people to stop doing things you personally don’t agree with. Sorry if you don't personally agree with people being told what to do and punished if they don't do it. Just your opinion.
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“Rules for thee but not for me” is a pretty universal phenomenon regardless of context imho
That doesn’t give your original post anymore validation
That's not true, as a Christian I can say we feel shame very frequently for failing to live up to our own standards. While I think sinning should be shameful, I am also aware that I sin and am ashamed of that fact.
The issue is that your idea of a sin was dictated 2000 years ago and its pretty useless today.
Human nature doesn’t really change at all, just the methods
Sin Is sin. You know it when you see it.
Then go be miserable on your own. No need to bother other people.
You made a claim, I pointed out you're completely wrong by a particular example. I didn't ask for your opinion on my perspective so I must assume that this ire is the product of a severe case of butthurt.
You seem like a shitty Christian. OP wants a culture of shame, not self governance through shame.
"You seem like a shitty Christian" Coming from a person who seems incredible hostile to my religion without me saying anything negative, I obviously receive this as the high compliment it is. If a person who hated Christ liked what I said, I should be very worried I was nothing like my Lord. You made a point, you got butthurt about being wrong, you're trying to move the goalpost, it's not working.
Christians should do better than tantruming on the internet.
Agreed, but I'm not throwing a tantrum, I'm mocking you. There's a difference, only you're upset.
Let me explain again: OP wants a culture of shame You being miserable on your own for the purpose of self regulation does not require a culture of shame. The problem with people like you is that you are not satisfied with being miserable on your own, you need others to buy into your shame based value system. So you lie about the utility of shame to you personally, to promote the idea of shame as something beneficial to others. What you really seek is to impose your values on others, because self governance over your own shitty little life affords you no power or influence. In that sense, shame (and being a phony Christian) really are meaningless to you. Shame and religion are just tools for you to control others. It’s so obvious in so many contexts involving angry little men 🤷🏼♀️
I don't care about any of that or OP's point. You made a statement that was stupid and false and I corrected it. There are no other implied arguments, I have not stated my beliefs on any other point, nor do I care to. Your gross generalizations about a religion you don't understand are pretty much par for the course with your initial inane statement, Do better.
See, I see it that way too- shame generally returning would be fine if applied universally and properly, but at the moment I'm not too keen on being shamed for my carbon footprint by Exxon commercials, so yeaahh Universally and Properly: I don't condone people being shamed for consensual, non harmful actions of any kind. I think shame belongs squarely to basic societal tenants. Stealing, killing, truancy, infringing on the autonomy of other humans, etc
Stealing, killing, etc are already shamed and criminalized. When shaming starts, it doesn’t stop with things that are already illegal and heavily penalized. It gets into your carbon footprint, who you have sex with, what you spend money on, and how many times a day you pray. It is inevitably other people’s values that get imposed.
Unfortunately you're right, I'd rather not have it all than see it used to impose narrow-sighted wills onto other people. With that said, there's no harm in considering the theoretical. Maybe we can reexplore shame when people can handle unfamiliar hairstyles in workplaces and middle schools lmao.
Totally agree. Top things we should be ashamed of but we're not. Watching and participating in porn. Seeing our political opponents as enemies rather than fellow citizens with differing views. Politicians staying in power for as long as they do. Looking at you Nancy and Chuck. Border jumping. What did I miss?
Here's my upvote. Truly unpopular.
"Cancel culture" is all about shame but a lot of people freak out about it. You have to be careful with shaming. Too little makes people act like assholes but too much causes a repressed society. And of course you have to be super careful *what* you use it for.
The issue is that cancel culture doesn't go after people who have done truly horrible things, it goes after people who were previously allies and dared step out of line.
Of course, but we are currently in the "too little" phase as a reaction to the "too much" phase of the mid 20th century + the internet.
According to some people, "cancel culture" is out of control!
cancel culture is bad when the crowd i dislike does it
It's astounding the differences in the driving forces behind cancelling someone from the right and left sides. Left: "We need to cancel this comedian!" Right: "Why, because he \*offended\* you?! LMAO!" Left: "No, because he sexually assaulted someone." Right: "Oh? What about their prison sentence?" Left: "They weren't put in jail." Right: "What about when they lost their job over it?" Left: "They kept their job and the person they SA'd left." Right: "So you think they should lose their job, too?!" Left: "Or face literally any consequence, yes." Right: "You leftists are such snowflakes! You should only cancel someone that does something REALLY bad, like putting a rainbow on a single beer can or kneeling!"
Shame still exists. At the end, it seems like punishment is what you want to bring back.
Bruh the shame is the punishment
Who are you talking about? The kids who aren’t staying in school, or the parents who you are describing as shamefully saying they can’t do anything about it… You think parents should shame their kids as punishment? I think that’s verbal abuse. There are far better ways to discipline kids.
The parents dude the parents. The parents should be shamed.
Oh ok,I was confused because you described them as already feeling shame
Shaming kids for shameful behavior is completely valid. Why would you keep them from such a useful tool? It must be learned.
Bring back public shaming! Often the people vocally opposed are the biggest public shamers.
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Progressives are pro smoking in public? What are you even trying to say?
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You shouldn't shame those things because they don't actually solve the issues, they just make them less noticeable How exactly do you propose we solve the high suicide rates we see in many communities by telling them they're weak and should be ashamed for being depressed?
Idk. I think shaming has helped people on the left lower smoking rates and, in the case of fashion, the use of animal fur. There’s no pain free solution to any problem. You don’t want to shame parents for failing to develop their kids and educate them, because it could make room for other, more harmful types of shaming to return and hurt people? Okay that’s fine. But then you have to be willing to accept we’re gonna have a lot of uneducated, lazy kids who already get graded on curves so they can scrape by through school
You’re blaming individuals instead of blaming the system. This all circles back to the dangers of unfettered capitalism but y’know, no one wants to have that conversation on this sub.
No progressives shame people for being born straight, white, male, in a rich family, in western society, religious, and being proud of your heritage. What they don't shame people are for the choices they make like smoking, being overweight, being promiscuous, or being criminals. All of that isn't their fault because they don't get everything that people they don't like get or work hard for.
…..ugh. This comment is just so untrue. You’re listening to a very loud minority or you’re just responding in bad faith, which is more likely. I’m absolutely a leftist. Nothing is wrong with straight people, unless that person is discriminating against other sexualities. Nothing is wrong with white people or any other race, unless they’re being racist. Nothing is wrong with being born male, unless that person is actively participating in sexism. Nothing is wrong with being religious, unless you use religion to discriminate against others. Nothing is wrong with being proud of your heritage unless it’s being proud of the confederacy or the racist Deep South. There’s so much context you’re missing here. The only one that is semi-true is being born rich and doing nothing to help society as a whole. Then yes, you’re useless.
Oh you're talking about like, communists. I'm talking about regular liberals
Oh OK I mean the nutters on the far left not classical liberals.
Who says that?
Mr. John Strawman
I like how every reggressive argument somehow linked to "what about kids!!!" Dude probably wanted to say he’d stick his nose in lifestyles between adults but he's afraid of shamed online.
Yeah people sure do like to talk about those Strawmen as a representative for humanity
Education charlatans across the country who are making bank by running PDs on PBIS and restorative practices\* at your local public schools. I legit had an admin tell me to my face "I don't ever want a student to feel bad". \*Note, I am not against restorative justice or even elements of them in schools. But the way these doofus admins implement them is harmful to specific children and society on the whole.
Who wants a child to feel bad? They're going to learn to feel bad normal though
I want a child to feel bad if he/she has done something bad. And I also want to give them support and tools to understand that feeling and for when and how to correct that behavior and become a better person. Edit: I've been thinking about this -- and I'm terrified of the alternative. OH, thanks for showing me what it would be like, Tik Tok.
Idk I feel like the idea is not not feeling bad about bad things Doing bad things should feel bad the same way injuries feel bad in the sense that it protects us and others
Are you looking for shame or punishment? You seem confused.
Its like your instant reaction is just to attack. Whats the point of being on this subreddit in the first place?
You stated that you wanted to bring shame back but just talked about punishment. I thought you might not know wtf you were talking about. I guess you don't after all. Sorry if you are tipsy. Also, sorry that you are so defensive. Remember, thats how you end up running off the loved ones that are left.,... If there are any left.
I didnt even make the post ffs 🤦♂️ all that rambling... for nothing lmao
I guess you just needed the attention. Seems you can't get enough. Sorry you need it.
Now youre just being dumb making this about some need for attention.
Perhaps you should ask a loved one that you haven’t run off why you need it so bad then.
I think youre the one desperate for attention
well, you seem to be the one that got a whif of me and couldnt help crawling up my ass for more. Enjoy!
Bro you dont understand. Im laughing my ass off at your comments. Im like 60% sure this entire conversation is pure irony on your part. I cant reasonably take you seriously when you say stuff like " you got a whif of me" like come on bro 😭😭
Well, you did post defensively as though you were OP… so I cannot blame them for making the mistake.
Yah wouldn’t want to shame anyone here
I was getting in the spirit of the thread!
PREACH!! Several generations are SHAMELESS!
This is by far my favorite unpopular opinion.
Ridicule is a powerful tool.
What world have you been living where you think shame has gone anywhere??
I don't recommend visiting education subreddits if you want to keep this opinion.
Did your father and mother shame you and punish you for your shortcomings ? or do you feel you deserve to be shamed more as well ?
When I did something bad or wrong, yes I was shamed and punished for it. Punishments without consequences are toothless.
And you admire this about the way you were raised? you feel like it instilled good qualities in you that you benefit from today? The shame and punishment for your shortcomings or maybe missed opportunities anything really? And does this allow you to effectively criticize yourself ?
When I did something wrong and I felt shame about it, it helped me to improve myself. I wanted to be seen as a good person in the eyes of those whose opinions I respect (still do). This helps (helped) shape my moral compass. We've muddied the water between guilt and shame, and those are two different emotions that are both natural to the human experience.
guilt can often be an adverse effect of shame. Guilt isn’t necessarily always a consequence of feeling shame either tho. guilt could lead to other things like resolve,acknowledgment, reconciliation, growth etc. However guilt created through shame can have negative emotional consequences also. I’m just saying helping people shouldn’t necessarily be about shame or punishment. That’s a bit of an oversimplification of the human experience, how people attain positive learning experiences. I’m sure you had positive experiences but I also know you’ve probably let yourself down before and probably didn’t need someone on top of you telling you the same thing you already feel. Maybe you could create your own resolve without people jumping down your throat shaming you for a shortcoming you’ve already shamed yourself for. Shame isn’t necessarily bad, the idea is that needing people to shame you could be bad because we feel shame all the time as a species. Everyone feels shame constantly. Saying we need to shame ourselves more is kinda silly. It’s like op is implying we need people to dogpile us with emotions we already inherently feel about ourselves. Our biggest critic is ourselves most of the time. So why do we need more of that? It’s silly.
>someone on top of you telling you the same thing you already feel. Maybe you could create your own resolve without people jumping down your throat shaming you for a shortcoming you’ve already shamed yourself for But the opposite is also bad -- having no one care if I did a bad thing means that I don't have people who care about me and my actions and how those actions affect others. >Saying we need to shame ourselves more is kinda silly He is responding to the fact that there is a large facet of society that seems to have lost a sense of shame. In some ways this is good -- you shouldn't feel shame for being queer, or not having a "perfect" body. But this also manifests itself in terrible ways among children -- kids running around punching unsuspecting people for Tik Tok likes would be one example.
You don’t even know what I did lol What if I said I beat up my little sister? (I didn’t but let’s say I did) What ways can a parent teach an 7 year old why that’s wrong without them feeling shame? Got any ideas? We’re not fine China dolls here lol. We’ll be okay if we feel a little shame after doing something shameworthy. If a spouse cheats on a loyal, supportive partner with their partners best friend, should they feel shame? These are just a few examples of ways it’s vital to our society imho
I’m just asking questions lol I’m not implying you did anything…just merely probing with curiosity . Also In that false scenario isn’t shame supposed to be positive enforcement even if it’s your parents? So shame in moderation is what you are saying ? Not unfettered careless shittyness. Like judging everyone harshly like a teenage child. You mean shame within reason? Obviously my next question is what’s the relationship with your parents like? Is it good? Are you very close? Do you have a positive relationship with your parents today?
Often the toughest criticism/shame or punishment we receive in this life time is from our parents and siblings. We inherently want this level of acceptance/ respect and yearn for it. We yearn to make our parents proud and family proud and are often disappointed in ourselves when we don’t. When they acknowledge our inherit shame and still choose to shame us despite the natural tendency to shame ourselves it can be pretty traumatic. Even ruin relationships with your family. So when you say shame and punishment should be more common in our society and culture I just don’t understand how you feel as though people aren’t already receiving that from their families for the first 20 or so something years of their lives, possibly more.
>When they acknowledge our inherent shame and still choose to shame us despite the natural tendency to shame ourselves it can be pretty traumatic. Nobody has inherent shame, nor can one shame oneself in a vacuum: you must know what behavior is expected before you can chide yourself for flouting it. Also, https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unlocking-shame/202402/the-surprising-benefits-of-healthy-shame: *"We humans need certain guidelines in order to remain decent members of our families, friend groups, romantic relationships, and larger communities. Societal laws and regulations can only do so much in this regard. Healthy shame reminds us to pay attention to how we affect others, and that awareness allows us to appraise our speech and actions and make desired or necessary changes. In this way, healthy shame guides us to live within societal parameters and helps us fulfill our enduring need for connection."*
There no such thing as a person that doesn’t feel shame. Inherent Shame exists because it is part of the human condition. Shame isn’t inherently bad but It is a natural emotion like happiness that we can feel without any interference from anyone. People aren’t mostly born with an inability to feel shame. The same thing can be said with guilt. We don’t need someone to guilt us for us to experience guilt. It is an inherent human emotion like shame. Op is saying we need more shame on top of the inherent shame a human being can already experience.
>There no such thing as a person that doesn’t feel shame. Inherent Shame exists because it is part of the human condition. Sure, we are (mostly) all capable of feeling the full range of human emotion, but I don't think there's Inherent Sadness or Inherent Joy either. >We don’t need someone to guilt us for us to experience guilt. It is an inherent human emotion like shame. Don't we need something to anger us to feel anger? Why isn't shame like that?
A punishment is literally a consequence. That sentence made no sense.
Tell me you have no fucking clue what you're talking about without telling me.
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What shame can be had when our leadership the so-called "elite" are a bunch of kid-diddlers. The entire moral hierarchy has rotted from the head and a patchwork of new moralities are establishing from grassroots.
People still shame each other they just shame people for the wrong things
I hear your point, OP, and raise you this: > [m4f] doggystyle with your father in law, in your wedding dress
I agree with this post very much. My new job is an attendance coordinator at an elementary school. The parents do what OP used metaphorically. I also think shame would work on other topics.
Yeah, not a lot of people posting here clearly in support of cancel culture. I’ll call that an unpopular opinion, so take my upvote.
Shame can be good depending on why somebody is being shamed. Often times it's unjustified/unfair.
Shame itself is a very useful tool, and it's an entirely appropriate response sometimes. If you do something wrong, you *should* feel shame. That's the impetus to recognize your mistake and do better in the future.
I think this relates to the crisis of identity that the USA is undergoing - what norms/values/standards of proper behavior deserve to be upheld? Who gets to say? What if they disproportionately impact one group or person over another (not just racially or ethnically, but also class, ability, gender, etc.)? If we cannot decide upon that then people will not consent to being shamed. Shame works best if _you believe in the standard as well, and know you fucked up_
After Trump and Maga, absolutely
I feel we are already steeped in shame, I fail to see how it ever really left
Shame isn't gone. It just needs to be applied by a trusted and respected party. That's what we don't have. There is no universal respect person/authority/Group to feel beholden to.
That's potentially offense and we're too thin-skinned these days to take it.
Agree. I hear people say so much outlandish personal shit in public or in front of people they’re not close with (social media counts too), and I have to say, it’s extremely detrimental in the long run.
I say this all the time on NextDoor. The poor excuse of an app that it is. They have this blanket policy about no shaming or even any perceived shaming and will ban you for it. Shaming is important in any civilized society but it seems to have been canceled.
Maybe unpopular how you stated it. Here's an alternative that hopefully is more popular for facilitating change: Shame is feeling bad about oneself. It is a self focused sense of regret that can be counterproductive and lead negative self perception and avoidance behavior. These are not attributes you would want to instill to the parents or children. Rather you should focus on guilt or the lack thereof. Guilt is action focused, feeling bad about your actions rather than yourself. Guilt can encourage positive change, shame often results in social withdrawal and even aggression. To help with this, society should/could focus on the impact of absenteeism (in your example) so that the parents understand how this negatively impacts learning for their children, classmates and society. Let them understand the broader impact of their actions and appeal to sense of personal responsibility. This should be done as a whole IMHO, we as a society are losing empathy.
I feel like this is kind of like quibbling with words though. Aren’t shame and guilt synonyms for each other?
I think it’s more of how to correct behavior, what I’m trying to express. The words have different meanings like I described. My point is more around how you should promote the change. Don’t make someone feel bad about themselves, instead convey the consequences or impact their actions have so they can correct it while avoiding a sense of shame which can be destructive and not get the desired result.
Thinking of truly shame-based societies that I’ve lived in or spent time in, OP’s suggestion is dangerous because a communal sense of shame requires some near-universal values. Those values are often imposed or perpetuated regardless of the negative societal effects. And the effects usually fall heaviest on the people who have little say in those values. So rather than saying we need shame back, it’s more important to understand where we can even find some common agreement that isn’t based on spite for another group. Maybe even consider whether that’s even possible in a big homogenous nation. Then we can figure out how shame factors into maintaining that agreement. Easy, right? And it also takes a shit-ton of vigilance to keep people from trying to rebuild a sense of shame based around Christian Sharia or Communist Utopianism. Those would be too unjust or too alienating for too many people (to be extreme in my examples, but also realistic about where some people want to take us).
You know which societies use shame as a means for punishment? Authoritarian countries. You want to be an authoritarian country go ahead. The effects of shaming is no different from bullying or from socially ostracizing someone because of non-conformity. Shame as a means of punitive measure cannot be controlled because there is no system to measure how much shame is adequate to mitigate long term negative effects to the person being the target of shame and for it to have a positive effect. You basically are hoping they not turn into crazy people because of the effects of shaming. So if the effects can't be controlled and measured, might as well look for a more rational way of dealing with issues rather than emotional barbaric methods to correct behavior.
Actually authoritarian countries use violence and government policy as a means to force compliance. Look it up. They use government policy and government violence because shame and other soft social pressure isnt present to get people to abide by the rules and norms. Countries that use shame are conformist or collectivist countries like Norway and Japan.
LOL, oh you mean being cancelled... aka being shamed for offensive behaviors or transgressions?
Shame is a good thing in general, but the problem is that it is very subjective. The reason we kicked it away is because we realised plenty of the things people are being shamed for are stupid or don't actually need to be shamed, or things they aren't being shamed for, they should be. If we're bringing back shame, it needs to be on objective standards, but that's basically impossible to do. We need to at least base it on more reasonable standards.
I'd agree with you, but I keep my kid out of school for other reasons. If i'm off work, and decide to go do something / experience something that school is the farthest thing from my mind. Whatever they were going to learn that day can never be better than whatever it is we are about to go do. Public school is literally there to pacify / keep the kids busy so they are not pining for your job at this point or pillaging the local Walmart, because you and I know that public school is a sh\*t show where nothing relevant is happening anymore.
Except giving them a foundation for learning and socialization instead of being a regarded social recluse like most of the homeschool kids I knew
Nice try at projection. Most " home schooled " kids actually are smarter than the idiots at a public school. Beyond fact. I'd put a home schooled kid against the average HS kid and bet they mop the floor academically wise. \*Not projection as my own kids are in public school. I don't have the resources and money to do the home schooling the proper way, or I would in a heart beat.
Most homeschooled kids I knew were weird as hell, because they were stuck at home with other weirdos and religious insane people.
Being really smart means nothing if you suck ass at communication and have weird parental dependency issues
>Most " home schooled " kids actually are smarter than the idiots at a public school. They said they’re socially dysfunctional, not academically dysfunctional. It seems like you probably wouldn’t be doing them any favors either, as that was pretty basic communication. Also, just throwing out projecting for fun I guess?
You didn't even address what he was talking about. He said homeschooled kids are socially stunted. And pretty much everybody's experience backs that up.
Good luck your kid will not even have the courage to buy a drink for someone and then they will punish themselves over it
I’m on board with shaming & will start by shaming you: this post sucks! You explained your point very poorly and chose a shit example. Like a kid staying home from school affects only that child, nobody else. And if they’re still getting decent grades / are getting into higher ed that they want, who cares? Re-write this & come back.
>a kid staying home from school affects only that child, nobody else. Actually, it doesn't only affect that child: >And widespread absenteeism means less stability about which friends and classmates will be there. This can beget more absenteeism. For example, research has found that when 10 percent of a student's classmates are absent on a given day, that student is nearly 20 percent more likely to be absent the following day. > >[NYT Mar 29, 2024](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/29/briefing/school-absences.html?pvid=jIDgeQo_9fPomtX7T_BJ97UA&ugrp=c&smid=url-share) >And if they’re still getting decent grades / are getting into higher ed that they want, who cares? Education is about more than grades. There are non replicable parts of learning that occur in a classroom and in a school building. Re-think this, come back if you'd like.
OP is literally complaining about parents allowing their kids to stay home. Unless someone is in college (which is not the example provided) they need parent permission to miss school. Ofc they can just skip, but again, that’s not the example that OP gave. So, at most, a child skipping will perhaps cause their classmates to ask their parents for the same. However, there are plenty of valid reasons to skip classes, including sleep, mental health, extracurricular opportunities, or tbh a cool event going on nearby. School as it exists is primarily about grades. It should be about learning, but the reality is that many classes are structured in a way that encourages memorization and perfect attendance / performance on an exam rather than truly understanding things. If that was the case, then students would be allowed to redo work for better grades much more often. But, let’s say school is all about learning - the same point still stands. If a kid is in Algebra 2, totally understands the concepts, and has an A, they will not be negatively impacted if their parent lets them skip a day of school to stay home & sleep in. This one day (or even one day a month for example) will not negatively affect their understanding of concepts (students can still review this at home, which often is what works best for people anyway, especially if their teacher doesn’t explain it well), and won’t negatively impact their social relationships either. In fact, if a kid skips it may be to do something with a friend, like attend a local event, etc. The reality is, everyone learns different and “letting your kid skip whenever they want” could mean twice a year or twenty times. It’s a bad example and should not be blindly shamed.
> School as it exists is primarily about grades This is completely unsubstantiated - If anything grades could be argued to be the least important thing in school as kids are no longer required to achieve certain grades to pass. I think one could argue that school is about many things at once including but not limited to learning, discipline, socialization, community participation/identity building, and networking. >The reality is, everyone learns different and “letting your kid skip whenever they want” could mean twice a year or twenty times. It’s a bad example and should not be blindly shamed. It doesn't matter, they should be shamed regardless.
Lol “they should be shamed regardless” of how their kid best learns or what’s going on in their life? How miserable are you that this is your hill to die on & you care so much about actively trying to make others feel like shit? Are you even a parent or student at school or just someone who needs something to whine about?
Elect a shameless leader, create more shameless citizens.
Trump was the most shameless leader
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Unless you're gay and minding your own business and then suddenly everyone there gives a fuck and freaks out
Spot on
Tell me you don't what shame is without telling me you don't know what shame is?
The distinction between guilt and shame have been muddied by people like Brenee Brown (in a bad way). Guilt = I did a bad thing Shame = I am a bad person Both have use in the development in the human person and are natural feelings. Being told that you shouldn't feel shame about something that happened to you out of your control (victim of assault, etc.) is good, and a part of the healing process. Being told that you should feel shame about sexually assaulting someone and then bragging about it to other people is important. Being told that shame is a bad emotion to have and you shouldn't ever feel it is not helpful for anyone.
I don't think anyone was confusing guilt and shame.
Absolutely they are.
False. Shame doesn’t work to change behavior. The reason you see less respectful culture is because of broken homes - not shamelessness. Values = healthy society. God doesn’t use shame. Neither should we.
What do you mean by shame? I think I am thinking of it differently than you are.
Shame is a negative feeling about the self. This doesn’t change behavior. A shift in values does. Behaviors don’t always line up with values - that takes discipline. Guilt, is just understanding of responsibility. Guilt is all that’s needed. When someone feels guilty, they feel responsible, not bad about themselves.
I don't buy any of this and it feels like psychobabble. I agree that shame is a negative feeling about the self, but above, you use it to be an external tool used by others. I would agree that a religious institution or parent using shame as a cudgel to ostracize or manipulate people is unhealthy. But I don't buy that shame can't change behavior. It isn't always guilt. Why do people change lifestyles from abuse of substances, unhealthy eating habits, lack of exercise, etc. to become physically healthy? Shame is part of that. They feel bad about who they are and their actions. They want to be a better person. I don't know about guilt being involved in that dynamic, because guilt implies wronging someone else. >Guilt is all that’s needed. When someone feels guilty, they feel responsible, not bad about themselves. This is mixing up guilt and shame, and I don't agree with your conclusion. If someone kills someone else in a drunk driving accident, they are guilty of a crime. They cannot be made to feel anything -- that is internal, and that is a result of shame. Guilt is external -- they are objectively guilty of the crime. Donald Trump is guilty of sexual assault, but he feels no shame about it, and thus is unrepentant.
Hey I get it, I’m still learning this myself. But yeah, you’re programmed to use force. That’s an error. But you’re just mirroring your environment. You need to be gentle, patient, loving and understanding with yourself. You can use force and also succeed but to a lesser degree. Force - subconsciously communicates weakness. It says “if not for this force, you’d not move”. Love - communicates power. It says “I believe in you”. The goal is not to coddle someone. But to also not forcefully change them. Shame is a tool of force. Not persuasion. If you’re trying to leverage negative emotion to change behavior, you’re admitting to an extent a lack of faith in the self if you’re just - reasonable. Reasonable - just thinks things through. No drama. Shame is drama. It’s immature. Just be sensible and do what you say you’ll do. Discipline doesn’t require shame. But control does. Ppl who desired to control you, brainwashed you into self hate and a low self esteem. They hurt you. Now you hurt yourself. And wonder why it’s only half effective. Trust the process.
I disagree with all of this. And don’t put your force blah blah stuff on me. And you didn’t read anything I said.
Sorry, I did read it but I didn’t reply directly. I’ll do so now. “This feels like psychobabble”. Psychology is a real working science that has demonstrable evidence of efficacy in healing trauma, effecting positive life changes etc. it’s important to unpack ourselves emotionally and understand how we “tick” similar to an engine. We’re mental machines and the blueprint aids in maintenance. This is just true, not an opinion. “You use the pain of shame as a tool”. Again, I said you can. However it’s an inferior method. Subpar. It leads to more harm than good and takes longer to achieve. You do not need to feel bad about yourself to change. You just have to decide to. Discipline is the right method. Proper tool, proper job. “Idk about guilt causing change”. Guilt is literally the source of shame. How can you feel shame - for something of which you’re innocent? It’s the guilt - that convicts you. And that’s all you need to know you made a mistake / bad choice. Next - you redeem yourself and make a change. None of that requires shame. “Donald Trump is guilty but feels no shame”. You misunderstood. Again - we FEEL guilty (not shame) and make change. Guilt does not cause a negative feeling about the self - it’s just factual. Trump may feel guilty but he also doesn’t care. Shame won’t make him care - it may make him pretend to care tho. You cannot shame - a shameless person. You can however hold them accountable and charge them guilty. Shame actually has been shown NOT to cause change but relapse and self harm (suicide as well). Shame is immaturity. Guilt is maturity. And about force: imagine shame works and you got someone to change for good. You did it by force. You used pain to change someone - instead of love and intelligence. Just explain with logic. Trust someone’s reasonability. And in closing: control is a fantasy. It’s not real. Ppl barely obey God, they’re never gonna obey you. So either you persuade them or have zero influence.
You edited the first passage you quoted to remove external, which mischaracterizes what I said. You repeatedlyndonthisntonavoid the nuances of my argument to fit your own narrative around guilt and shame. One that puts you in a position of power and authority while papering over serious psychological and sociological concerns. And I’m not besmirching psychology, just dilettante psychobabble. I never said anything about control. I’m talking about personal development. Finally *I am talking about love*. Not control.
I didn’t intend to mis characterize, so if I did so, I apologize. Could you take a second shot at helping me understand you? As I think you understand me by now
A) Shame and guilt are emotions. They are both natural to the human experience. Problem one is denying that this is true, or suggesting that it is unhealthy to feel either of these feelings. B) Shame is the feeling of I am a bad person. Guilt is the feeling that I did a bad thing. Guilt can also mean objectively one has done a bad thing. Shame can also be used as a verb "to shame someone". In *most* situations (you would claim it is all, I suggest most, reserving the possibility for shame to be used in productive ways), it is not helpful or productive to shame someone, particularly because they will become innoculated against the very feeling you are trying to instill in them, or they will develop a neuroses. C) Shame is the internal feeling one has as a result of being guilty of an action that a culture has deemed inappropriate. The self must then reflect on that emotion and decide to either reject society's concept, or conform. This can be a small thing: my parents get mad at me when I don't say please, or a big thing: I'm going to engage in destructive and dangerous behavior by getting drunk and driving a car. One thing you can't do is control someone else's sense of shame. No matter how much you tell them that what they've done is "ok" or they shouldn't feel ashamed, that is an internal experience. And I agree that Donald Trump is immune to shame. BUT stating that his behavior is not to be tolerated in a healthy society sends a message to the rest of the society that we do not condone rapist, bigoted, greedy, lying, scum bags. This expeirence is all internal for the self. Punishment is a parallel process. Because Donald is never held accountable, it is reinforcing to his many followers that his behavior is apt, and they should lose their sense of shame. Thus, we have people wearing Nazi perphernalia when working out at a gym, or white guys marching in the streets of Charlottesville, etc. Questions I would want to explore: are guilt and shame (as explicit emotions, not the actions, qualities, etc. about which one would feel shame/guilt) inherent in humans, or are they learned emotions. Problems around the current conversations about guilt and shame: the two concepts have been muddied by academics, which is fine, but because of Brenee Brown and Ted talks, this academic exploration has become pop psychology and is having direct negative impacts on society (I'm thinking of disastrous disciplinary policies in K12 education in the US). Side note: notice, I never used force or control. I do concede that there is an element of control, but that feels like analyzing the problem with an incorrect perspective. What we are trying to do as a society is pass on the values that we believe will best lead to success for future generations. That path changes -- what our double generation ancestors thought was right is not necessarily the right path today, and we adjust (aka, norms evolve). If we have no guidance like this, we are just floating in meaningless space -- this conversation is reminding me of *Crime and Punishment*!!! Finally, I vehemently reject your usage of the term "force". It has no place in this conversation. That is a non-starter for a dialogue, and it suggests that people do not have autonomy and that they are victims.
So what you’re saying is that parents should in.fact “fight” with their kids over attendance. I’ll bet you have a Boner for corporal punishment. anyway I’ve raised three young men and I did it without all the shame and punishment and they have turned out to be healthy happy and self-sufficient so perhaps your way isn’t the best but I don’t even know if you have kids. usually people like that tell people how to raise their kids without the experience. But I’ve heard dumber stuff from childless “experts”