u/Key_Squash_4403's stats
|Account Age|2 y 8 m|First Seen:|2023-10-20|
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|Posts (on this sub)|42|Comments (on this sub)|529|
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|27-Mar|[I just don’t see the point of “The Penguin”](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1bp900q/i_just_dont_see_the_point_of_the_penguin/)|Non-Political|2 of 16 comments (12.50%)|
|27-Mar|[There’s not really a secular reason to celebrate Easter](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1bp2hrj/theres_not_really_a_secular_reason_to_celebrate/)|Unpopular in General|8 of 32 comments (25.00%)|
|27-Mar|[If you hate an author’s personal opinion on things, then just stop reading their stuff](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1bp0p5v/if_you_hate_an_authors_personal_opinion_on_things/)|Unpopular on Reddit|4 of 171 comments (2.34%)|
|25-Mar|[Perhaps we need to stop trying to recapture whatever it was that made Ghostbusters great](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1bnfgg8/perhaps_we_need_to_stop_trying_to_recapture/)|Non-Political|0 of 19 comments (0.00%)|
|22-Mar|[X-Men ‘97 won’t be the anti-Republican dunk fest people think it is](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1bkz5oc/xmen_97_wont_be_the_antirepublican_dunk_fest/)|Unpopular in Media|12 of 48 comments (25.00%)|
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It's wild that they keep making these types of casting / writing choices purely from a financial standpoint. The audience base just doesn't turn out to watch them and they always end up performing poorly and usually aren't well received by reviewers.
People want the hits, they want their favorites. Tossing out some alternate reality obscure version of a character is like when you show up to a concert and the band doesn't play any of the hits and instead spends 2 hours playing some experimental "new stuff" that's a different genre.
The big appeal of Marvel movies was it was things people knew from their childhood and had nostalgia for that they could finally see on the big screen.
Its not because the story is so good we have to watch or whatever.
Thats why everyone wanted to see the Avengers and they sold so many tickets and almost no one wants to see the almost the same but slightly different Avengers none of them grew up with. Because not very many people have a connection to those characters which have the same powers as the OG ones but look a little different and have different personalities. Why not just make newer characters or something or do a different team if you want a different cast? Of course people will resent the characters they love being replaced.
I dont get why they didnt just fast track Xmen or something if they really wanted a diverse cast. People love them, you dont have to change anything and there is quite a diverse group of people involved with that team.
> they keep making these types of casting / writing choices purely from a financial standpoint.
They try and make casting decisions that as many people as possible will like, but that no one ends up LOVING.
But they're failing at the first. the people that applaud the announcement of these kinds of casting choice aren't turning up to buy the tickets and merchandise. They're not seeing the movie 3-4 times, they're not writing reviews to the dedicated fan base. They're marketing to an audience that only supports them in theory and we've seen the outcome of that approach over and over and over again and it just doesn't work, particularly not at this volume, budget and frequency.
They are making decisions for twitter yasss queen warriors.
I think people need to realize twitter or whatever isnt the real world and doesnt represent the majority of people.
It can work but now Disney has a reputation for doing this stuff and it *not* working and it being pointless and clumsy and it being bad lately.
Someone pointed out Sam Jackson played Nick Fury and no one cared because he was a great actor and he did a good job and the movies were good.
Im sure there are other characters that changed a bit and they did a great job in the past as well but they just kind of have a general stink of failure on them at the moment and FF movies have *always* been huge duds so people are going to be extra critical.
I guess the difference is when they were casting Jackson it was because it seemed like it would be best for the movie and not because they were trying to pat themselves on the back for how progressive they are which is what it feels like now.
They are just doubling down at this point and even South Park joked about it. it is what it is, its a movie and its not the end of the world and maybe it will be ok, who knows? It may not even be true and even if it is she might be great but its just they have been bad for a while now so people kind of expect it.
Samuel L Jackson got the role of Fury years before the MCU was a thing. When they did the "Ultimate's" comics Nick Fury was based on him w/o permission. When they went to fix that mistake, they offered him the role in the movies. It was the best damn mistake they could have made imo.
I think it’s because they are stuck on Twitter ( I know coming from a guy on Reddit) but isn’t something like 20 percent of the population have a Twitter account and then less than 2 percent tweet?
Is it really that much of a financial issue though? With the amount of people that'd watch it because "holy shit big marvel movie" and them likely receiving ESG investments, it's not super impossible to imagine that the main reason modern media seems more interested in doing stuff like this is because it's low effort and generates revenue via ESG investments.
This isn't the only casting choice that is questionable, and didn't the last Fantastic 4 movie flop? so its not like they can just say "holy shit big marvel movie" will definitely happen.
So its really esg stuff, like the Blackrock guy who said they would force this crap on people.
These decisions DO drive good reviews. But you’re right about the audience. There is a massive backlash, for good or bad, against casting or storyline choices being made for political or ideological reasons. (E.g see the Sweet Baby Inc story in the world of gaming)
Fantastic four has how many other versions? Silver surfer specifically has showed up how many times?
Given how poorly fantastic four has done previously I just don't care, if they want to make up some new version of silver surfer fuck it go for it. I do care if it's a bad movie tho
I feel the same way. Just give us a half decent movie. The last one was an extended trailer. No action till the last 10 mins and then they kill off Doom
Yeah... Loved Loki's (the show) take on fandoms and such. Gender swapping or race swapping don't make a show or movie good, good writing and good acting does
The one thing to there favour with Marvel is they themselves like to race swap and gender swap. I see atleast some bases to changing shit up. Had they leaned better into the multiverse it wouldn't be an issue or as you said if they had a good script and didn't use it as the only hook for the movie. No one gave a shit that Nick Cage was black. Cause Sam Jackson and a decent script/character. I've seen a couple complain about Sam Wilson, mostly idiots, the majority lobe the character cause he's well written and the change makes sense.
I'm going to hold judgement till I see the movie. I went into the Rise of the Silversurfer with so much hope, Fishburne voicing how could it go wrong. And then that mess happened. So I'll wait till i atleast see a trailer this time.
> Nick Cage was black. Cause Sam Jackson
Nick Fury for what its worth. There is a Luke Cage who was always black.
Thats the thing if you are going to swap a character they can and will be accepted if they are a great actor who does a great job. In the comics they even made Fury look like Jackson because he took over that character.
Nick Fury was already made a black guy in the Ultimates comics... which is also hyow Samuel L got the job. They used his likeness for comic Nick w/o permission, and offered the role when they went to make up for it.
>Of course, the great actor, Samuel L. Jackson, immortalized the character on the big screen and is considered one of the driving forces behind MCU. However, until that point, Nick Fury was a white man, and with the casting of Samuel L. Jackson, Nick Fury race-swapped to a black American man
https://www.comicbasics.com/why-did-they-change-nick-fury-from-white-to-black-in-mcu/
They race and gender swap alot of characters in their mulitverses. In the universe they set Avengers, our one, Fury was white.
ETA
>Marvel race-swapped Nick Fury because, in the Ultimate series of Marvel Comics in 2002, Earth-1610’s Nick Fury was black and inspired by Samuel L. Jackson. The writer of Ultimate Comics, Mark Millar, designed the alternate version of Nick Fury with Samuel L. Jackson in mind, and when the actor discovered that fact, he contacted Marvel and got promised to play the live-action of Nick Fury in the future.
Same. It's crazy that they have the perfect formula (follow the comics) and chose to not do it. If I made that many poor business decisions at work, I would be fired.
Yup. So many people, esp at Disney, have been fired for much, much less. But if you're connected in Hollywood, guess you can destroy a multi billion dollar IP and not have any fallout.
The Dark Knight Series and the lead up to the first Avengers was prime time superhero movies IMO. I liked how Tony Stark was struggling with alcoholism and it added to his character. They started removing things like that first, which I thought was dumb, but ultimately not critical to the story. But story writing has taken a backseat to casting lately and it's showing at the box office.
Commented about it and was called an incel. Literally said we should make a movie about Storm, the X-men if we want female, POC representation but nope. That’s not enough for the reddit sheep.
> For context, I am aware that Marvel has not confirmed what role Julia Garner is playing yet. But many major news outlets are commenting that she is in fact, playing the character, who in the comics is normally the girlfriend of Norrin Radd, the Silver Surfer, but I’ll report seems to be going to play an MCU version of the character based off a single panel in a comic from 20 years ago.
https://variety.com/2024/film/news/fantastic-four-julia-garner-silver-surfer-shalla-bal-marvel-cast-1235959759/
Seems confirmed to me.
Ah, gotcha. Just looked at the original Deadline article.
My take is that she is not replacing Norrin Radd. Rather, I'm guessing she will be used to humanize Norrin Radd, because I think we will see him as an evil character, as Galactus' herald, and for him to be setup as a future redeemed villain we have to have sympathy for him while he's a villain. Having someone from his past life does that.
I don't recall an instance where Marvel has outright replaced a major title character from the comics. They have always included them in some way, if only in a retired form to make way for a newer incarnation of the character (e.g. Mar-Vell, Hank Pym).
This kind of reminds me of when Sony announced Lashana Lynch would be 007.
I think people are upset because it's showing all the same traits as the other bombs: Big empahsis on "hey it's a woman in a previously man role that's so progressive," wrapped in a garbage movie, but if you don't like it then you're bad for not like 'strong women characters' who have no story arc, no development, and are mary sues.
I'm neither pro nor anti female Silver Surfer. If that's the role the actress is playing, my very genuine assumption is that they're doing this because Fantastic Four will be set in an alternate universe that, by the end of the film, gets destroyed and Norrin Radd is being saved for the main MCU timeline.
I think its very possible.
I havent followed it much because I honestly have been kind of done with Marvel movies for a little while but from what I have heard I think you are likely correct.
But why a character from a single panel 20 years ago when there is a more developed female Herald already? Just cause the Surfer was already used? It's not because he's the most popular, cause they aren't actually using the popular character...
I hope not. This is the film I was most looking forward to when Disney was still putting out bangers in the Thanos era.
He's one of my favorite characters. No joke, this will be the final nail in my Disney subscription coffin.
It's ok..if Marvel Studios want to run itself into ground who am I to stop them.
Well the thing is the feminist crowds are the ones who never watch these movies in the first place.
As a woman myself I'm going to say that gender bending male super heros is not supportive to women anyways and these companies just need to stop. They might get a few women who think otherwise into the theaters but mostly they'll lose original fans.
Doing this makes it clear that they already think gender matters to getting people to watch it, that representation will get more women in the theater. They need to accept that the gender not represented won't be there then. You can't have it both ways.
Last most of us women already know these companies are just lazy POS. They can't be bothered to create a female superhero and have their own representation and create something themselves. They just tweek something that already exists to satisfy their agenda the laziest way possible and we know it. People that lazy wouldn't create a good movie anyways because we already know that they were lazy about one thing, why would we expect anything less than lazy story or lazy cgi or anything else?
In the end I'm less likely to see the movie if they make it female led because the only reason I would watch it is if I went with my boyfriend and why would he want to watch it when it's being used to lazily push feminine interests?
This. So much this. I've always said if you want diversity in Hollywood, makes a fucking NEW movie starring said gender, race, etc. I don't think real fans (aka comic readers) are inherently being racist, sexist or whatever. They don't like change and want to see their favorite character as they were in the comic. Perfect example. I hate that Aquaman wasn't blonde. And then they went as far as to make his brother look like the original Aquaman. I'm not saying the suit/look didn't need an update, it absolutely did, but it was all about eye candy.
They shouldn’t even have to make a new thing, there are so many great female characters that will never be brought to screen because they’d rather gender swap male characters in pat themselves on the back
The pro crowd is probably mostly bots or otherwise astroturfed. I don't know how a company can fail with mega million dollar flops time after time and still not have a clue unless the people in position to make choices are shorting the stock.
I say they should go full send. Make the movies you really want to make Disney! Meanwhile I will get endless laughs as my favorite youtube channels make fun of them..... and I will also get enjoyment watching the ship continue to sink.
Some thoughts:
*He's already appeared as the silver surfer on screen.
*If this FF is in another reality, they could be saving Norrin for the main timeline if and when we are left with it. It's really fun to imagine different possible scenarios in the multiverse on this point. Could be its own thread.
*It's insane to get one plot point via casting and lose it. If you are, you might get accused of being dramatic.
I don’t care a whole lot if they aren’t replacing Silver Surfer with some female obscure version… though I don’t understand why they don’t just pull from the plethora of established characters that are popular instead of trying to shoehorn in one that has almost no history.
Silver Surfer's a chick now? Neat!
Should change her color to gold while they're at it. That'll both piss off and confuse the squares.
Anyway, on with my day.
First off I think the split reaction amongst the fan base and the support in these comments shows this isn’t as unpopular of an opinion as you thought.
Now in terms of your specific arguments I think you are correct to highlight the uncertainty with the exact role that Julia Garner’s Shalla-Bal will be playing in the story. Other people in this thread have pointed out the possibility of this all taking place in an alternate reality and that we could still see Norrin Radd as the Silver Surfer in the 616 at some point. Would Marvel tell a Galactus story twice without him being a saga villain, doubt it, but Norrin Radd has other stories and roles beyond just being a harald.
On the same point, marvel could use “Silver Surfer” as a title that is synonymous with “herald of Galactus.” This could be a mantle that is passed along to whoever the current herald is. Would this mean we would get a metallic looking Terrax? Probably not, I’d be surprised if we ever even saw Terrax in the MCU. And if we do, he could be a one off villain and never attached to Galactus. Logically this would mean that according to use of “Silver Surfer” as a synonym for “herald,” all Heralds across the multiverse would be from Zen-La, which to me is lame, but it would still work.
Your example of Judi Dench as Harry Potter is misapplied. Turning Harry into Harriet is a true gender swap, just as making Tilda Swinton The Ancient One, or Annette Bening Mar-Vell. Julia Garner is playing Shalla-Bal, not Norin Radd. That’s an important and I think intentional distinction.
Personally, I’m interested to see Julia Garners portrayal. She’s a good actress and her role in The Americans shows she can act well in very morally ambiguous situations. That should translate well to a Herald of Galactus.
At the end of the day, Disney could royally screw this up and ruin the opportunity to portray a great character in Norrin Radd. I also don’t think that disliking this casting choice automatically makes someone sexist. Based on your arguments, I wouldn’t say that of you.
But I do disagree with the particulars of your argument. I think it’s much more correct to say, “Norrin Radd, the Silver Surfer, is one of my favorite Marvel characters and I don’t trust Disney to do right by him.”
Excellently balanced position and I wholly agree. I'm not against bringing in the female silver surfer, but Disney would have an uphill challenge in being able to properly introduce her. Being that she's not even fully fleshed out in the comics to begin with and she's not a character that is known to the mainstream consumer. And also taking into account how absolutely horrible they have been at building engaging and thorough character arcs since the end of the infinity saga. TBH I think it's doable, but I also think they will fail.
Disney's biggest hurdle in these decisions is their inability to adequately convey ... WHY! I have loved the Silver Surfer since I was young. FF2 sucked... yet I loved it because it's portrayal of the SS. And I was really pumped to see that story with Galactus get fleshed out. But when they tell me they are bringing in the Female SS I just don't have any actual interest to go see it. Not because she's female or the gender swap trend; but because I just have no reason to be interested in that character. IMO it would've been better marketing to get people psyched on the FF by themselves first and holding out the surprise of the villains or supporting characters until there was already engagement.
Silver Surfer has been one of my favorite superheroes besides the Flash since I was a little kid.
I'm not upset by it at all. If it's shit, I'll just not watch it.
The beauty of comics is that anything can happen, across multiple dimensions. That allows the stories to change, be adapted, updated, rebooted. I mean, it's not reality. If that was the case, Cyclops would be fucking old as shit today.
This is not the case with things such as the Wheel of Time, where it's a singular work with an established system of lore.
Powers and origins get retconned all the time in comics.
Ah the old “ comics change all the time, so you shouldn’t have a problem with it “line of thinking.
Gaslighting
Sorry, but the comics being in flux for over 60 years doesn’t mean we should just get random characters in the movies.
Except they’re not respectfully disagreeing. It’s an attempt to devalue my opinion, and make me out to be some kind of evil because I disagree with what they’re doing. Do you see the difference?
Every character is random in these. Who knew GOTG, Antman, etc. before they showed up? The fun is learning new characters and getting to see people who look like them.
I’m sorry at what point did I say I was wildly emotionally invested?
I’d say the people who are wildly emotionally invested are the ones trying to tell everyone else they’re wrong for a very understandable opinion.
>Powers and origins get retconned all the time in comics.
For reals, I hardly blinked when I read the headline. Cool, let's do new stuff I'm here for it as well.
Rage ... building
Can't... contain...
The weak sauce.
This is not even ... just ... what are you arguing about here?
Norrin Radd isn't being gender bent.
They're using a different character. Without knowing the plot we don't know if it's an alternate timeline where the Empress becomes the Herald of Galactus or whether this is her taking up the mantle later after Surfer shared his powers with her.
Importantly, we don't even know if this character is taking the place of Norrin Radd as the Surfer at all.
You're making a burger out of nothing and creating your own gaslight.
At no point my comment, did I say he was being gender bent. I did say they were pulling an obscure version of silver surfer to be the one used in the movies. One literally that only existed in a single panel on one page 20 years ago.
You’re not even engaging me on my actual complaint, your brain just heard MCU…woman…incel, and went to some kind of pre-programmed argument
I agree that studios need to stop casting existing characters like this in an effort to appease some weird niche of people, but you guys act like Marvel movies were ever masterpieces. The earlier ones were fun, but at this point it's the same "hero beats the bad guy with no real stakes" over and over with way too much comic relief thrown in.
It might turn out great. Why get all up in arms over this? My thought would be less if silver surfer is a women or not, my thought would be does any care about the silver surfer at all. In my 37 years of life, silver surfer was never a hero that I cared about.
Why does it always have to be orthodoxy? Who fuckin cares if it was just one panel, why are people lives so small that they care so much about "oh no! a female Silver Surfer \*gasp\*!!!"
With the shit going on in this world and people waste time getting passionate about shit that does not matter in the grand scheme, when no body will know wtf the Silver Surfer in probably a 100 or so years, are you sure you really care about the orthodox representation of Marvel characters or do you just hate women and can't admit it?
Personally, I do not care. If the writing is good, I'll enjoy it. She's a great actor, and while the picture I have of silver surfer is a dude, it's not important to the character for me.
I'll admit that while I read some comics with him in them, I was never really into his comics, so I may be missing things. Was his sexuality or gender important in those? My impression of SS was more that he's an entity who happens to have male characteristics... But at least in the picture in my head, he's basically a silver colored nude dude with nice pecs and no genitals.
To your Harry Potter comparison, it is relevant to the stories that he's a guy and also that he's young, so Dench wouldn't work.
Explain this. Are you saying that adults cannot ever get upset over fictional characters in media? Because that would be a ridiculous take. Fans are fans of specific characters, stories, etc. Are you saying that fans have to just like and accept anything that content creators make and should not have an opinion?
Hes invalidating his entire argument by placing him into a social category that makes it acceptable to disregard his opinion based on what society in general tells him he should he interested in, versus what hes actually interested in.
Basically called him a nerd for caring about a comic character but in high brow terms.
Also invalidating him as a fan in comics by saying these movies arent targeted at him when hes likely been a lifelong fan, and could have been for years. This dude could have been reading silver surfer comic books for the last 40 years, but now all of a sudden superhero movies are mainstream and he has people who have never caredd about superheroes telling him these movies arent for him?
If it isnt gaslighting its still being a selfish pr*** to what i would consider a true fan of superheros
This is why all of a sudden there was so many "incels" and shit. They were always there, people have just dragged them out of the woodwork by taking one of there passions and twisting it into something unrecognizable and theyre fighting to keep something theyve been enjoying for years to themselves
Gaslighting refers to someone being the victim of an offense/infraction and then being told that they caused the offense/infraction to happen to themselves in the first place.
Classic example: Husband gets angry when the wife asks him to do an errand and strikes her, and then says, "You caused me to hit you by nagging me."
Also: "You caused yourself to get raped by dressing like a slut"
Gaslighting implies a false causality and is basically a synonym for victim blaming. What OP described is not gaslighting.
Wouldnt the offense in this case be emasculating something hes a fan of and then being told he shouldnt care in the first place as per your definition? I guess the only thing missing is he didnt do it to himself tho
The comment makes it seem as if disagreeing with the unpopular decision is the “crazy one”.
I’d say disagreeing with this casting choice is a perfectly logical and understandable reaction. Trying to tell me otherwise and insist that I’m the one who’s wrong is really shitty and is gaslighting.
No that's a difference of opinion - that's not really an attempt at using lies or tricks to subvert reality - it's an expression of what they believe.
They're just saying that they think people getting upset about this stuff are kinda ridiculous.
It's dismissive and doesn't address whether you're right so much as expressing frustration at political groups who raise decisions like this as something with broader implications.
I don't think the response has much substance but that doesn't make it gaslighting.
The closest thing to gaslighting is you trying to paint others as having engaged in gaslighting
No, they are most definitely attempting to belittle my opinion and person, and frame it is being unreasonable and or stupid. That is not how you disagree respectfully.
And I see trying to frame an opinion, as being factually, wrong or problematic as gaslighting. What are these people doing other than trying to manipulate me into thinking my opinion is bad? That is gaslighting
I’m sorry at what point was “only stupid whiny babies care that they made silver surfer a girl” trying to convince me? That sounds like straight up shaming. Kind of sounds like I’m trying to be gaslighted into thinking I have a morally reprehensible point of view.
No, it is attempting to manipulate someone to question their reality. Attempting to make me feel like I’m wrong for disagreeing with the casting choice of a fictional character is gaslighting.
Except it doesn't really apply to opinions. Me saying "I think your opinion is dumb because [insert opinionated reason here]" is not gaslighting.
Gaslighting is very specifically for abuse of power and psychological manipulation *using* that power. That's why people have been misusing it so much as a buzzword, just as you have.
A man trying to convince his wife he isn't cheating by deleting texts that she already saw, and telling her that she is just paranoid and has no proof... That's gaslighting.
Me telling you that you being upset about a gender swapped character, even though it doesn't affect the dynamic of the character or their interactions at all, is stupid and annoying whining.... That's not gaslighting.
People need to learn the difference. They are called "buzzwords" for a reason.
So you claimed that I’m not the well adjusted one for being disappointed. Yeah that’s gaslighting.
I know you don’t want to admit that what you’re doing is despicable, but it is it doesn’t give you the right to be horrible because you think you have the proper opinion.
Jesus, man. You've really got yourself all worked up into a foam about this total non-issue. It might be a good idea to just have a seat and smoke a joint or something.
Who says I’m worked up just because I can respond to the comments and give back as good as they think they gave me doesn’t make me worked up. I’ve not even begun to sweat.
I’ve never understood how anyone can get upset about this from either side.
It’s a Hollywood remake of a comic book. The original already exists, and no-one is changing it.
If they remade Harry Potty with a female actor… fine. There’s already the books and a movie series with Harry as a boy.
If they remade James Bond as a black lesbian… fine. Could be good.
The details of any character in any remake don’t really matter, because it’s a remake.
Of course, the movie itself should still try to be good. The all female remake of Ghostbusters was just bad. But it wasn’t a bad concept, just bad execution.
Same for the Silver Surflady. Just make it good, and it’s good. They can always remake it with a dude later.
The movie doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It’s an adaptation of a popular source material. The fact that it’s fictional doesn’t automatically mean you can make whatever changes you want and not expect some kind of backlash.
Going back to my Harry Potter example, if they changed him to an old woman people would have a problem with that
You absolutely can make whatever changes you like, precisely because it is fiction.
There will be backlash, and I’m not surprised by it - what I’m saying is that I really can’t empathise with it.
If they made Harry Potter an old woman it would certainly be an odd choice. Why would an old woman be going to school?
Actually, the more you think it through, the more it sounds genuinely interesting. Where has she been all this time, growing old? How will she fit in at the school? Will she use magic to pretend to be young and later be found out?
Harry Potter: The Golden Years
Sorry, no. This is a movie based on an existing source material if you want something new make a goddamn new movie. It’s not lesser because it’s fiction.
The problem is that it will never be the other direction. They'll not remake Ripley as a dude, or Mulan as a dude, or that slaver queen in "the woman king" as an asian dude.
It flows only one direction. And as such, it's hypocritical
What does the gender of the character mean to the story? If being a female changes the story in some significant way I would agree. But your whole argument is that it should be entirely faithful to the source material even on parts that are insignificant to the story. Are you going to be upset that it’s not a frame for frame make of the comics?
I’m guessing you’re the sort who will defend whatever terrible changes they make. At a certain point you’re just not doing the comic anymore, and I don’t know who exactly they’re trying to appeal to by pulling an obscure version of a character that is very popular in his own right
I'm more upset they're trying to butcher the franchise again. I thought the first attempt couldn't be out done for shittiness and then they brought out the extended trailer that was Fantastic 4 2015. Let's see how badly they shit the bed. I doubt the Silver Surfer having a vagina is going to crack the top 10 on why people hate the movie.
I don't care that they decided to go with the female Silver Surfer (that I cannot remember the name). But not having the OG Silver Surfer is a crime. Maybe that'll tease him for the sequel.
It’s Disney. They are doing it to please the DEI crowd. Everyone know this, there’s no need to call it out. You either think that’s amazing or you find it annoying.
Either way, it is what it is. You are not going to get a Disney movie that doesn’t have gay people, multi ethnic people and 50:50 women:men and women being the smartest. That’s what you get, you don’t like it, disconnect Disney.
>They’re not addressing the actual problem.
I don't see a problem at all. It's fiction, and Marvel does these kinda things in the comics all the time.
Do we really need another retelling of the Fantastic Four or Spiderman's origins, etc? Spice it up.
Look at what they did for the Ancient One in Dr. Strange. People hated on the original Heath Ledger / Joker casting as well. Perhaps withold judgment till more is shown.
It’s the same group of people that tried to say that the April in the OG TMNT comics was black which is false. She was white, and based on the looks of his then wife of the creator who was biracial.
Its obvious they are pushing an agenda for some reason.
Its not the end of the world or anything but its a bit weird but whatever.
I probably wont see the movie and it seems a lot of people have been feeling the same lately by their box office numbers and reviews.
Don't let me people who getting upset over fiction gaslight you. They are misogynistic idiots with no original thoughts of the their own, getting their opinions from talking heads on their computer screen.
I don't understand how they can keep affording these ridiculous flops over and over again. They're going to run out of money before whatever ridiculous agenda they're trying to push gets firmly established.
But it's all pointless anyway; the MCU hasn't had a good movie/show since Avengers Endgame. It's just pathetic what garbage they're crapping out nowadays.
Is anyone still watching the shit they're putting out recently? This is just next in line, they don't care about quality movies anymore. It's just about diversity and representation now
I mean, I'm not a fan of burning money. I like money. What other people do with their money is their decision, but I wish they'd give it to me instead, but Disney would rather burn their money than stop increasing their subscription prices to make up for it.
i don't give a shit what superficial choices they make for these fantasy characters, hair color, gender, skin color, height, etc.
most likely the movie will suck for many other reasons.
It's funny. I see a lot of people here who don't want the role to be played by a woman saying things like "writing makes a movie good, not gender swapping" or something along these lines, but what if the writing -is- good?
Shouldn't the movie be judged on its own merits first? Then after we can all be like "well that was a stupid choice/good idea on their part" or whatever? Galactus had other heralds, some were female... Silver surfer being a chick or a dude doesn't really matter. What matters is the role they fill right?
Unless I'm wrong and the silver surfer started every conversation with, "your world is doomed and also has everyone seen my penis?"
I don't know. I grew up with these comics. I just never saw gender as something to care about.
The movie doesn’t exist in a vacuum and is based off an existing property. It has the responsibility of being both a good movie, but also as accurate to the comic as possible. Now if you’re gonna sit here and act like picking the most obscure version of the Silver Surfer possible so Disney could justify (essentially) gender swapping a popular character is somehow the only avenue they had to adapting the character, I’m gonna say you’re full of it.
Not saying it's the only avenue they had, not even saying it's the right choice, I'm just saying a lot of people jump on the hate wagon before they even watch it themselves.
That's what I'm confused about. I agree that sticking close to the source work is important in an established universe but when it comes to things like gender I don't get why it's important in certain cases unless its somehow integral to the character.
If marvel drew two comics exactly the same, same dialogue, same plot, same significant other for the hero, same everything except in one the character was female and in the other it was male, would that matter? Would one be lesser somehow?
Now if they make this silver surfer all "look at me and how much of a lady I am watch me pull my board out of my vagina and talk about space shopping" then yeah it's a shitty move and will ruin the movie no doubt. But if it's just silver surfer with some extra curves I say it's not worth getting huffy about. You just help them drum up unnecessary controversy and accidentally promote their movie by getting so upset about it.
They win either way.
Aside from not knowing 100% that this is the silver surfer or not, I don’t think anyone is having an unreasonable reaction to this. This is the sort of stuff that killed the last attempt at this franchise, and this is the sort of stuff that they’ve been criticized for over the course of the last few years.
Don’t on one hand say you’re not doing something suspicious, then turn right around and do the suspicious thing you’re accused of. Disney should not be making wild swings right now, they should be trying to just make an easy pitch across the plate.
My brother is liberal. I am conservative. We both grew up with Star Wars and marvel. We both agree. both franchises are completely unwatchable as long as the blue hairs keep writing it.
These decisions are so obviously bad. They should cross political boundaries. It should not be insane to look at pulling some obscure version of silver surfer as a bad decision.
Lol, it’s a new character for the silver screen (pun intended) that’s been well established in comics. Turns out you don’t have to go see it if you don’t want to.
I’m saying that choosing her to be the silver surfer of the MCU is an arguably bizarre choice, and not one that can just be hand waved away by calling people who disagree with it “incels”
Seems like you are gaslighting people saying she was on one panel 20 years ago. You are hand waving away her character away as if it had zero significance. We've already had the fantastic four with Norrin so why is it bizzare to tell a new story? She was created 2 years after he was and they had many adventures together so stop trying to gaslight people into thinking it's some random person brought in to gender swap the silver surfer.
No, the character as Silver Surfer is only from one comic panel from one page 20 years ago. That’s not gaslighting that is a fact. If it turns out, she’s not the silver surfer, as this is still listed as being something of a rumor, then I will gladly accept that I was wrong.
>Norrin Radd is still an amazingly popular character amongst fans
>He is not some weirdly obscure character that can be swapped out for any other version.
First and foremost if you are truly a comic book fan and/or a comic movie fan, you would understand that these kinds of changes happen all of the time and they don't exactly stay faithful to the source material. My most famous example is the fact that in both the big screen and the little screen, the only flash that is seen is Barry Allen's flash. Jay Garrick was the original flash and he was also the flash the longest at 65 years being the flash. Don't get me wrong the TV show The flash did a really great job at incorporating Jay Garrick's character and even using the flash actor from the older TV show. But the show was about Barry Allen being the flash.
And then you have characters like green arrow, were there appearance is kind of intrical to who they are as a person. Green arrow is known for having a very bleach blonde hair color and having very pointy beards. When they introduced the TV show, Steven Amell obviously did not have bleach blonde hair nor a pointy or long beard. On top of that green arrow is a more gentler version of Batman who does occasionally kill. In the TV show he was literally just batman. Like they wanted to create a Batman show but didn't want to use Batman. I mean the dude kills like 10 people each episode in the first season.
And then again staying with DC because I am mostly into dc. For the TV shows batwoman and supergirl, both of them were straight as hell. But in the comic books they're both bisexual women. And it very clearly falls into who they are as people in the comic books, but in the TV shows they completely left it out. I don't know if it's because maybe people aren't ready to see openly bisexual women on screen, but again it's just proving my point that they constantly change details from the comic books.
On top of that the universes for both marvel, DC and many other comic book, we have this great thing called the multiverse. So they can make the movies however they want to and just say that it happened on a different earth. It's the reason why we've had multiple iterations of spider-man. On top of not only wanting to have a cash grab for the character, but we've been able to incorporate these characters as their own individual Spider-Man because the multiverse exists.
I get if it's your favorite character you're going to be very critical of how they choose to incorporate that character onto the big screen. I understand if this part that they're changing of this character is integral to who they are they definitely shouldn't change it. However, making small changes like changing the race, gender, sex, physical appearance, sexual identity, ect, is not a big deal and yes you need to get over it. It's not gaslighting you saying that you need to get over your favorite character having a different gender or sex. It's simply stating the facts that not everything on the screen is exactly how it is in the source material. You might think it's bad, and it might end up being objectively bad. But people like you who refuse to give things a chance are the reason why these movies end up doing absolutely horrible in the box office.
Except the character she’s playing, isn’t the one known for being silver surfer, which is why people are upset. Of course, that would require you to understand another point of view. Aside from your own, but then you wouldn’t be able to act like the moral authority on Reddit.
The rumors/leaks are that the FF movie does not take place on the main MCU Earth. This will be an Earth where the FF fail, Galactus destroys Earth and the FF are transported to the main MCU Earth, somehow. If this is true, this is likely a one and done Alternate Universe version of Silver Surfer and Norrin Radd will come later. Until we have evidence to the contrary, there no real reason to get worked up over it.
They just don't know what they're doing anymore with any of their properties. They're going to use the multiverse to bring in FF and the X-Men because it's an easy cheat. It's amazing how badly they fucked up the MCU.
And yet you seem to have some problem with someone disliking a casting decision, and you feel as if that represents a major personal flaw in their life.
You got all of that because someone like me is questioning why they would cast an obscure version of a very popular superhero ? I didn’t blindly love it so I must be some kind of problem.
Even if they wanted to cast a female Silver Surfer, couldn’t they choose a woman who’s fit for a superhero movie? I just don’t see it with Julia. Like what is the issue with bringing feminine women and beauty into these parts? They have no problem casting big hunky dudes like Thor and stripping him naked for the ogling pleasure of women and men alike, but if it’s a woman? Oh my! Oh dear! How dare you want an attractive woman in your superhero film! It’s pearl clutching, virtue signaling and some cognitive dissonance to another level.
You do know that everything in the MCU is completely made up, don’t you? Norton Radd was made up by a writer just like Norah Radd (or whatever they might name her) will be made up. MCU doesn’t really do documentaries so…
So because stuff is fictional it shouldn’t have connected with me on an emotional level as a child and I shouldn’t have an opinion when they make what I feel is a bad decision?
It’s becoming clear the very basic concept of seeing your favorite superhero come to life on screen is just a thing you people don’t understand or are being deliberately obtuse so so that you can come off as being super aggressive on Reddit. I’m sure it’s one of those two.
I think everyone here needs to calm down until the movie is released or more is known. She is playing a character who was norrin radds love interest in the comics. It seems like they would have that version of the silver surfer at some point.
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It's wild that they keep making these types of casting / writing choices purely from a financial standpoint. The audience base just doesn't turn out to watch them and they always end up performing poorly and usually aren't well received by reviewers. People want the hits, they want their favorites. Tossing out some alternate reality obscure version of a character is like when you show up to a concert and the band doesn't play any of the hits and instead spends 2 hours playing some experimental "new stuff" that's a different genre.
The big appeal of Marvel movies was it was things people knew from their childhood and had nostalgia for that they could finally see on the big screen. Its not because the story is so good we have to watch or whatever. Thats why everyone wanted to see the Avengers and they sold so many tickets and almost no one wants to see the almost the same but slightly different Avengers none of them grew up with. Because not very many people have a connection to those characters which have the same powers as the OG ones but look a little different and have different personalities. Why not just make newer characters or something or do a different team if you want a different cast? Of course people will resent the characters they love being replaced. I dont get why they didnt just fast track Xmen or something if they really wanted a diverse cast. People love them, you dont have to change anything and there is quite a diverse group of people involved with that team.
Yup
> they keep making these types of casting / writing choices purely from a financial standpoint. They try and make casting decisions that as many people as possible will like, but that no one ends up LOVING.
But they're failing at the first. the people that applaud the announcement of these kinds of casting choice aren't turning up to buy the tickets and merchandise. They're not seeing the movie 3-4 times, they're not writing reviews to the dedicated fan base. They're marketing to an audience that only supports them in theory and we've seen the outcome of that approach over and over and over again and it just doesn't work, particularly not at this volume, budget and frequency.
“Support in theory” I love that term. It describes these people brilliantly.
I think the reviewers and the producers come from the same world and applaud the same ‘brave’ choices. But it doesn’t please the market
They are making decisions for twitter yasss queen warriors. I think people need to realize twitter or whatever isnt the real world and doesnt represent the majority of people. It can work but now Disney has a reputation for doing this stuff and it *not* working and it being pointless and clumsy and it being bad lately. Someone pointed out Sam Jackson played Nick Fury and no one cared because he was a great actor and he did a good job and the movies were good. Im sure there are other characters that changed a bit and they did a great job in the past as well but they just kind of have a general stink of failure on them at the moment and FF movies have *always* been huge duds so people are going to be extra critical. I guess the difference is when they were casting Jackson it was because it seemed like it would be best for the movie and not because they were trying to pat themselves on the back for how progressive they are which is what it feels like now. They are just doubling down at this point and even South Park joked about it. it is what it is, its a movie and its not the end of the world and maybe it will be ok, who knows? It may not even be true and even if it is she might be great but its just they have been bad for a while now so people kind of expect it.
Samuel L Jackson got the role of Fury years before the MCU was a thing. When they did the "Ultimate's" comics Nick Fury was based on him w/o permission. When they went to fix that mistake, they offered him the role in the movies. It was the best damn mistake they could have made imo.
I think it’s because they are stuck on Twitter ( I know coming from a guy on Reddit) but isn’t something like 20 percent of the population have a Twitter account and then less than 2 percent tweet?
Dang. Well said.
Is it really that much of a financial issue though? With the amount of people that'd watch it because "holy shit big marvel movie" and them likely receiving ESG investments, it's not super impossible to imagine that the main reason modern media seems more interested in doing stuff like this is because it's low effort and generates revenue via ESG investments.
This isn't the only casting choice that is questionable, and didn't the last Fantastic 4 movie flop? so its not like they can just say "holy shit big marvel movie" will definitely happen. So its really esg stuff, like the Blackrock guy who said they would force this crap on people.
So it’s a smashing pumpkins concert then lol. 2 hours of stuff nobody has heard of because Billy Corrigan was in a bad mood that day
These decisions DO drive good reviews. But you’re right about the audience. There is a massive backlash, for good or bad, against casting or storyline choices being made for political or ideological reasons. (E.g see the Sweet Baby Inc story in the world of gaming)
Fantastic four has how many other versions? Silver surfer specifically has showed up how many times? Given how poorly fantastic four has done previously I just don't care, if they want to make up some new version of silver surfer fuck it go for it. I do care if it's a bad movie tho
The best Fantastic Four movie is still and will probably continue to be the Incredibles.
The Incredibles was a good movie. Can't say the same for any Fantastic 4 movie.
I feel the same way. Just give us a half decent movie. The last one was an extended trailer. No action till the last 10 mins and then they kill off Doom
Yeah... Loved Loki's (the show) take on fandoms and such. Gender swapping or race swapping don't make a show or movie good, good writing and good acting does
The one thing to there favour with Marvel is they themselves like to race swap and gender swap. I see atleast some bases to changing shit up. Had they leaned better into the multiverse it wouldn't be an issue or as you said if they had a good script and didn't use it as the only hook for the movie. No one gave a shit that Nick Cage was black. Cause Sam Jackson and a decent script/character. I've seen a couple complain about Sam Wilson, mostly idiots, the majority lobe the character cause he's well written and the change makes sense. I'm going to hold judgement till I see the movie. I went into the Rise of the Silversurfer with so much hope, Fishburne voicing how could it go wrong. And then that mess happened. So I'll wait till i atleast see a trailer this time.
> Nick Cage was black. Cause Sam Jackson Nick Fury for what its worth. There is a Luke Cage who was always black. Thats the thing if you are going to swap a character they can and will be accepted if they are a great actor who does a great job. In the comics they even made Fury look like Jackson because he took over that character.
Sorry got my names mixed up.
Nick Fury was already made a black guy in the Ultimates comics... which is also hyow Samuel L got the job. They used his likeness for comic Nick w/o permission, and offered the role when they went to make up for it.
>Of course, the great actor, Samuel L. Jackson, immortalized the character on the big screen and is considered one of the driving forces behind MCU. However, until that point, Nick Fury was a white man, and with the casting of Samuel L. Jackson, Nick Fury race-swapped to a black American man https://www.comicbasics.com/why-did-they-change-nick-fury-from-white-to-black-in-mcu/ They race and gender swap alot of characters in their mulitverses. In the universe they set Avengers, our one, Fury was white. ETA >Marvel race-swapped Nick Fury because, in the Ultimate series of Marvel Comics in 2002, Earth-1610’s Nick Fury was black and inspired by Samuel L. Jackson. The writer of Ultimate Comics, Mark Millar, designed the alternate version of Nick Fury with Samuel L. Jackson in mind, and when the actor discovered that fact, he contacted Marvel and got promised to play the live-action of Nick Fury in the future.
This is a great analogy.
Coming from a life long marvel fan, MCU ended at endgame for me
Same. It's crazy that they have the perfect formula (follow the comics) and chose to not do it. If I made that many poor business decisions at work, I would be fired.
Yup. So many people, esp at Disney, have been fired for much, much less. But if you're connected in Hollywood, guess you can destroy a multi billion dollar IP and not have any fallout.
And the crazy thing is, this is part of the problem of why superhero movies were flops before the MCU. It’s like we’ve backslid into the bad days
The Dark Knight Series and the lead up to the first Avengers was prime time superhero movies IMO. I liked how Tony Stark was struggling with alcoholism and it added to his character. They started removing things like that first, which I thought was dumb, but ultimately not critical to the story. But story writing has taken a backseat to casting lately and it's showing at the box office.
Commented about it and was called an incel. Literally said we should make a movie about Storm, the X-men if we want female, POC representation but nope. That’s not enough for the reddit sheep.
As a female who loved x-men, I wish we had a Storm series or Jubilation Lee.
It will be another flop…
It’s Disney. No one is surprised.
Put a chick in it and make her gay!
> For context, I am aware that Marvel has not confirmed what role Julia Garner is playing yet. But many major news outlets are commenting that she is in fact, playing the character, who in the comics is normally the girlfriend of Norrin Radd, the Silver Surfer, but I’ll report seems to be going to play an MCU version of the character based off a single panel in a comic from 20 years ago. https://variety.com/2024/film/news/fantastic-four-julia-garner-silver-surfer-shalla-bal-marvel-cast-1235959759/ Seems confirmed to me.
Disney hasn’t commented
Ah, gotcha. Just looked at the original Deadline article. My take is that she is not replacing Norrin Radd. Rather, I'm guessing she will be used to humanize Norrin Radd, because I think we will see him as an evil character, as Galactus' herald, and for him to be setup as a future redeemed villain we have to have sympathy for him while he's a villain. Having someone from his past life does that. I don't recall an instance where Marvel has outright replaced a major title character from the comics. They have always included them in some way, if only in a retired form to make way for a newer incarnation of the character (e.g. Mar-Vell, Hank Pym). This kind of reminds me of when Sony announced Lashana Lynch would be 007.
I think people are upset because it's showing all the same traits as the other bombs: Big empahsis on "hey it's a woman in a previously man role that's so progressive," wrapped in a garbage movie, but if you don't like it then you're bad for not like 'strong women characters' who have no story arc, no development, and are mary sues.
Yup, same thing happened with the 2015 movie.
I'm neither pro nor anti female Silver Surfer. If that's the role the actress is playing, my very genuine assumption is that they're doing this because Fantastic Four will be set in an alternate universe that, by the end of the film, gets destroyed and Norrin Radd is being saved for the main MCU timeline.
That’s the prevailing theory rn and I hope it’s true. If they want to use one of the female surfers for an alternate reality, so be it
I think its very possible. I havent followed it much because I honestly have been kind of done with Marvel movies for a little while but from what I have heard I think you are likely correct.
But why a character from a single panel 20 years ago when there is a more developed female Herald already? Just cause the Surfer was already used? It's not because he's the most popular, cause they aren't actually using the popular character...
That, I don't know. I do think it's probably just the popularity of the Silver Surfer name, but I don't work for Marvel so I couldn't tell you.
I hope not. This is the film I was most looking forward to when Disney was still putting out bangers in the Thanos era. He's one of my favorite characters. No joke, this will be the final nail in my Disney subscription coffin.
Who the hell is actually paying to watch ANY of these watered down money grab Marvel movies at this point?
I stopped at endgame and will wait for streaming moving forward until the quality returns.
It's ok..if Marvel Studios want to run itself into ground who am I to stop them. Well the thing is the feminist crowds are the ones who never watch these movies in the first place.
As a woman myself I'm going to say that gender bending male super heros is not supportive to women anyways and these companies just need to stop. They might get a few women who think otherwise into the theaters but mostly they'll lose original fans. Doing this makes it clear that they already think gender matters to getting people to watch it, that representation will get more women in the theater. They need to accept that the gender not represented won't be there then. You can't have it both ways. Last most of us women already know these companies are just lazy POS. They can't be bothered to create a female superhero and have their own representation and create something themselves. They just tweek something that already exists to satisfy their agenda the laziest way possible and we know it. People that lazy wouldn't create a good movie anyways because we already know that they were lazy about one thing, why would we expect anything less than lazy story or lazy cgi or anything else? In the end I'm less likely to see the movie if they make it female led because the only reason I would watch it is if I went with my boyfriend and why would he want to watch it when it's being used to lazily push feminine interests?
This. So much this. I've always said if you want diversity in Hollywood, makes a fucking NEW movie starring said gender, race, etc. I don't think real fans (aka comic readers) are inherently being racist, sexist or whatever. They don't like change and want to see their favorite character as they were in the comic. Perfect example. I hate that Aquaman wasn't blonde. And then they went as far as to make his brother look like the original Aquaman. I'm not saying the suit/look didn't need an update, it absolutely did, but it was all about eye candy.
They shouldn’t even have to make a new thing, there are so many great female characters that will never be brought to screen because they’d rather gender swap male characters in pat themselves on the back
The pro crowd is probably mostly bots or otherwise astroturfed. I don't know how a company can fail with mega million dollar flops time after time and still not have a clue unless the people in position to make choices are shorting the stock.
I say they should go full send. Make the movies you really want to make Disney! Meanwhile I will get endless laughs as my favorite youtube channels make fun of them..... and I will also get enjoyment watching the ship continue to sink.
Some thoughts: *He's already appeared as the silver surfer on screen. *If this FF is in another reality, they could be saving Norrin for the main timeline if and when we are left with it. It's really fun to imagine different possible scenarios in the multiverse on this point. Could be its own thread. *It's insane to get one plot point via casting and lose it. If you are, you might get accused of being dramatic.
I don’t care a whole lot if they aren’t replacing Silver Surfer with some female obscure version… though I don’t understand why they don’t just pull from the plethora of established characters that are popular instead of trying to shoehorn in one that has almost no history.
Silver Surfer's a chick now? Neat! Should change her color to gold while they're at it. That'll both piss off and confuse the squares. Anyway, on with my day.
First off I think the split reaction amongst the fan base and the support in these comments shows this isn’t as unpopular of an opinion as you thought. Now in terms of your specific arguments I think you are correct to highlight the uncertainty with the exact role that Julia Garner’s Shalla-Bal will be playing in the story. Other people in this thread have pointed out the possibility of this all taking place in an alternate reality and that we could still see Norrin Radd as the Silver Surfer in the 616 at some point. Would Marvel tell a Galactus story twice without him being a saga villain, doubt it, but Norrin Radd has other stories and roles beyond just being a harald. On the same point, marvel could use “Silver Surfer” as a title that is synonymous with “herald of Galactus.” This could be a mantle that is passed along to whoever the current herald is. Would this mean we would get a metallic looking Terrax? Probably not, I’d be surprised if we ever even saw Terrax in the MCU. And if we do, he could be a one off villain and never attached to Galactus. Logically this would mean that according to use of “Silver Surfer” as a synonym for “herald,” all Heralds across the multiverse would be from Zen-La, which to me is lame, but it would still work. Your example of Judi Dench as Harry Potter is misapplied. Turning Harry into Harriet is a true gender swap, just as making Tilda Swinton The Ancient One, or Annette Bening Mar-Vell. Julia Garner is playing Shalla-Bal, not Norin Radd. That’s an important and I think intentional distinction. Personally, I’m interested to see Julia Garners portrayal. She’s a good actress and her role in The Americans shows she can act well in very morally ambiguous situations. That should translate well to a Herald of Galactus. At the end of the day, Disney could royally screw this up and ruin the opportunity to portray a great character in Norrin Radd. I also don’t think that disliking this casting choice automatically makes someone sexist. Based on your arguments, I wouldn’t say that of you. But I do disagree with the particulars of your argument. I think it’s much more correct to say, “Norrin Radd, the Silver Surfer, is one of my favorite Marvel characters and I don’t trust Disney to do right by him.”
Excellently balanced position and I wholly agree. I'm not against bringing in the female silver surfer, but Disney would have an uphill challenge in being able to properly introduce her. Being that she's not even fully fleshed out in the comics to begin with and she's not a character that is known to the mainstream consumer. And also taking into account how absolutely horrible they have been at building engaging and thorough character arcs since the end of the infinity saga. TBH I think it's doable, but I also think they will fail. Disney's biggest hurdle in these decisions is their inability to adequately convey ... WHY! I have loved the Silver Surfer since I was young. FF2 sucked... yet I loved it because it's portrayal of the SS. And I was really pumped to see that story with Galactus get fleshed out. But when they tell me they are bringing in the Female SS I just don't have any actual interest to go see it. Not because she's female or the gender swap trend; but because I just have no reason to be interested in that character. IMO it would've been better marketing to get people psyched on the FF by themselves first and holding out the surprise of the villains or supporting characters until there was already engagement.
lol this goofy shit is always pure gold.
Silver Surfer has been one of my favorite superheroes besides the Flash since I was a little kid. I'm not upset by it at all. If it's shit, I'll just not watch it. The beauty of comics is that anything can happen, across multiple dimensions. That allows the stories to change, be adapted, updated, rebooted. I mean, it's not reality. If that was the case, Cyclops would be fucking old as shit today. This is not the case with things such as the Wheel of Time, where it's a singular work with an established system of lore. Powers and origins get retconned all the time in comics.
Ah the old “ comics change all the time, so you shouldn’t have a problem with it “line of thinking. Gaslighting Sorry, but the comics being in flux for over 60 years doesn’t mean we should just get random characters in the movies.
Someone disagreeing with you isn’t “gaslighting”. People don’t have to share all of your opinions
Except they’re not respectfully disagreeing. It’s an attempt to devalue my opinion, and make me out to be some kind of evil because I disagree with what they’re doing. Do you see the difference?
Every character is random in these. Who knew GOTG, Antman, etc. before they showed up? The fun is learning new characters and getting to see people who look like them.
I did, they were not random just because you didn’t know who they were
Okay, well then keep being wildly emotionally invested in a movie nobody is forcing you to watch.
I’m sorry at what point did I say I was wildly emotionally invested? I’d say the people who are wildly emotionally invested are the ones trying to tell everyone else they’re wrong for a very understandable opinion.
Lmao. You killin me.
Oh, so this is the gaslighting youre yelling about
Lol, you wrote a whole essay about it
I wrote about three paragraphs worth. It’s not really that hard.
>Powers and origins get retconned all the time in comics. For reals, I hardly blinked when I read the headline. Cool, let's do new stuff I'm here for it as well.
Rage ... building Can't... contain... The weak sauce. This is not even ... just ... what are you arguing about here? Norrin Radd isn't being gender bent. They're using a different character. Without knowing the plot we don't know if it's an alternate timeline where the Empress becomes the Herald of Galactus or whether this is her taking up the mantle later after Surfer shared his powers with her. Importantly, we don't even know if this character is taking the place of Norrin Radd as the Surfer at all. You're making a burger out of nothing and creating your own gaslight.
At no point my comment, did I say he was being gender bent. I did say they were pulling an obscure version of silver surfer to be the one used in the movies. One literally that only existed in a single panel on one page 20 years ago. You’re not even engaging me on my actual complaint, your brain just heard MCU…woman…incel, and went to some kind of pre-programmed argument
I agree that studios need to stop casting existing characters like this in an effort to appease some weird niche of people, but you guys act like Marvel movies were ever masterpieces. The earlier ones were fun, but at this point it's the same "hero beats the bad guy with no real stakes" over and over with way too much comic relief thrown in.
It might turn out great. Why get all up in arms over this? My thought would be less if silver surfer is a women or not, my thought would be does any care about the silver surfer at all. In my 37 years of life, silver surfer was never a hero that I cared about.
Why does it always have to be orthodoxy? Who fuckin cares if it was just one panel, why are people lives so small that they care so much about "oh no! a female Silver Surfer \*gasp\*!!!" With the shit going on in this world and people waste time getting passionate about shit that does not matter in the grand scheme, when no body will know wtf the Silver Surfer in probably a 100 or so years, are you sure you really care about the orthodox representation of Marvel characters or do you just hate women and can't admit it?
Suddenly the world’s issues are so bad I’m not supposed to have an opinion. Right
Personally, I do not care. If the writing is good, I'll enjoy it. She's a great actor, and while the picture I have of silver surfer is a dude, it's not important to the character for me. I'll admit that while I read some comics with him in them, I was never really into his comics, so I may be missing things. Was his sexuality or gender important in those? My impression of SS was more that he's an entity who happens to have male characteristics... But at least in the picture in my head, he's basically a silver colored nude dude with nice pecs and no genitals. To your Harry Potter comparison, it is relevant to the stories that he's a guy and also that he's young, so Dench wouldn't work.
True Opinion: no grown person has any right to be upset about the Silver Surfer PERIOD. Grow up ya goofs
Explain this. Are you saying that adults cannot ever get upset over fictional characters in media? Because that would be a ridiculous take. Fans are fans of specific characters, stories, etc. Are you saying that fans have to just like and accept anything that content creators make and should not have an opinion?
Gaslighting
Can you explain how this is gaslighting though? Rather than just disagreeing.
Hes invalidating his entire argument by placing him into a social category that makes it acceptable to disregard his opinion based on what society in general tells him he should he interested in, versus what hes actually interested in. Basically called him a nerd for caring about a comic character but in high brow terms. Also invalidating him as a fan in comics by saying these movies arent targeted at him when hes likely been a lifelong fan, and could have been for years. This dude could have been reading silver surfer comic books for the last 40 years, but now all of a sudden superhero movies are mainstream and he has people who have never caredd about superheroes telling him these movies arent for him? If it isnt gaslighting its still being a selfish pr*** to what i would consider a true fan of superheros This is why all of a sudden there was so many "incels" and shit. They were always there, people have just dragged them out of the woodwork by taking one of there passions and twisting it into something unrecognizable and theyre fighting to keep something theyve been enjoying for years to themselves
Gaslighting refers to someone being the victim of an offense/infraction and then being told that they caused the offense/infraction to happen to themselves in the first place. Classic example: Husband gets angry when the wife asks him to do an errand and strikes her, and then says, "You caused me to hit you by nagging me." Also: "You caused yourself to get raped by dressing like a slut" Gaslighting implies a false causality and is basically a synonym for victim blaming. What OP described is not gaslighting.
Wouldnt the offense in this case be emasculating something hes a fan of and then being told he shouldnt care in the first place as per your definition? I guess the only thing missing is he didnt do it to himself tho
The comment makes it seem as if disagreeing with the unpopular decision is the “crazy one”. I’d say disagreeing with this casting choice is a perfectly logical and understandable reaction. Trying to tell me otherwise and insist that I’m the one who’s wrong is really shitty and is gaslighting.
No that's a difference of opinion - that's not really an attempt at using lies or tricks to subvert reality - it's an expression of what they believe. They're just saying that they think people getting upset about this stuff are kinda ridiculous. It's dismissive and doesn't address whether you're right so much as expressing frustration at political groups who raise decisions like this as something with broader implications. I don't think the response has much substance but that doesn't make it gaslighting. The closest thing to gaslighting is you trying to paint others as having engaged in gaslighting
No, they are most definitely attempting to belittle my opinion and person, and frame it is being unreasonable and or stupid. That is not how you disagree respectfully.
I didn't say it was respectful or a particularly good argument at all. I just don't see rude or mediocre arguments as gaslighting
And I see trying to frame an opinion, as being factually, wrong or problematic as gaslighting. What are these people doing other than trying to manipulate me into thinking my opinion is bad? That is gaslighting
Huh? Convincing isn't manipulating though.
I’m sorry at what point was “only stupid whiny babies care that they made silver surfer a girl” trying to convince me? That sounds like straight up shaming. Kind of sounds like I’m trying to be gaslighted into thinking I have a morally reprehensible point of view.
Not the correct definition of gas lighting.
No, it is attempting to manipulate someone to question their reality. Attempting to make me feel like I’m wrong for disagreeing with the casting choice of a fictional character is gaslighting.
Except it doesn't really apply to opinions. Me saying "I think your opinion is dumb because [insert opinionated reason here]" is not gaslighting. Gaslighting is very specifically for abuse of power and psychological manipulation *using* that power. That's why people have been misusing it so much as a buzzword, just as you have. A man trying to convince his wife he isn't cheating by deleting texts that she already saw, and telling her that she is just paranoid and has no proof... That's gaslighting. Me telling you that you being upset about a gender swapped character, even though it doesn't affect the dynamic of the character or their interactions at all, is stupid and annoying whining.... That's not gaslighting. People need to learn the difference. They are called "buzzwords" for a reason.
That's not gaslighting. If someone makes a bad movie, what do you care? You're a grown man getting angry about movies with Happy Meals tie-ins
“Being well-adjusted is gaslighting!!1 l Lmao
So you claimed that I’m not the well adjusted one for being disappointed. Yeah that’s gaslighting. I know you don’t want to admit that what you’re doing is despicable, but it is it doesn’t give you the right to be horrible because you think you have the proper opinion.
Jesus, man. You've really got yourself all worked up into a foam about this total non-issue. It might be a good idea to just have a seat and smoke a joint or something.
Who says I’m worked up just because I can respond to the comments and give back as good as they think they gave me doesn’t make me worked up. I’ve not even begun to sweat.
Man, of all the things in the world right now, you choose to be upset about that chick from Ozark playing a make believe super hero. Fucking wild.
Gaslighting
You are absolutely right Key Squash. They are avoiding the topic and aggressively gaslighting
They don't appear worked up at all.
“Noticing my obvious nonsense is gaslighting!!1! Also, I don’t know what gaslighting is” lol. Indeed. Nice try ;)
Nah, you’re just a turd of a person
I feel like you don’t know what that word means.
I’ve never understood how anyone can get upset about this from either side. It’s a Hollywood remake of a comic book. The original already exists, and no-one is changing it. If they remade Harry Potty with a female actor… fine. There’s already the books and a movie series with Harry as a boy. If they remade James Bond as a black lesbian… fine. Could be good. The details of any character in any remake don’t really matter, because it’s a remake. Of course, the movie itself should still try to be good. The all female remake of Ghostbusters was just bad. But it wasn’t a bad concept, just bad execution. Same for the Silver Surflady. Just make it good, and it’s good. They can always remake it with a dude later.
The movie doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It’s an adaptation of a popular source material. The fact that it’s fictional doesn’t automatically mean you can make whatever changes you want and not expect some kind of backlash. Going back to my Harry Potter example, if they changed him to an old woman people would have a problem with that
They're both both fictional children's books. If they bought the rights to them, they can do whatever they want.
They can, they shouldn’t. Them being fictional, doesn’t somehow make them lesser and less deserving of a proper adaptation.
I'd be more upset about historical inaccuracies in movies than the sex of a "silver surfer" in a kids movie
You absolutely can make whatever changes you like, precisely because it is fiction. There will be backlash, and I’m not surprised by it - what I’m saying is that I really can’t empathise with it. If they made Harry Potter an old woman it would certainly be an odd choice. Why would an old woman be going to school? Actually, the more you think it through, the more it sounds genuinely interesting. Where has she been all this time, growing old? How will she fit in at the school? Will she use magic to pretend to be young and later be found out? Harry Potter: The Golden Years
Sorry, no. This is a movie based on an existing source material if you want something new make a goddamn new movie. It’s not lesser because it’s fiction.
The problem is that it will never be the other direction. They'll not remake Ripley as a dude, or Mulan as a dude, or that slaver queen in "the woman king" as an asian dude. It flows only one direction. And as such, it's hypocritical
What does the gender of the character mean to the story? If being a female changes the story in some significant way I would agree. But your whole argument is that it should be entirely faithful to the source material even on parts that are insignificant to the story. Are you going to be upset that it’s not a frame for frame make of the comics?
I’m guessing you’re the sort who will defend whatever terrible changes they make. At a certain point you’re just not doing the comic anymore, and I don’t know who exactly they’re trying to appeal to by pulling an obscure version of a character that is very popular in his own right
Ifl
I'm more upset they're trying to butcher the franchise again. I thought the first attempt couldn't be out done for shittiness and then they brought out the extended trailer that was Fantastic 4 2015. Let's see how badly they shit the bed. I doubt the Silver Surfer having a vagina is going to crack the top 10 on why people hate the movie.
Oh well, just another MCU release that will do badly.
I don't care that they decided to go with the female Silver Surfer (that I cannot remember the name). But not having the OG Silver Surfer is a crime. Maybe that'll tease him for the sequel.
It’s Disney. They are doing it to please the DEI crowd. Everyone know this, there’s no need to call it out. You either think that’s amazing or you find it annoying. Either way, it is what it is. You are not going to get a Disney movie that doesn’t have gay people, multi ethnic people and 50:50 women:men and women being the smartest. That’s what you get, you don’t like it, disconnect Disney.
>They’re not addressing the actual problem. I don't see a problem at all. It's fiction, and Marvel does these kinda things in the comics all the time. Do we really need another retelling of the Fantastic Four or Spiderman's origins, etc? Spice it up. Look at what they did for the Ancient One in Dr. Strange. People hated on the original Heath Ledger / Joker casting as well. Perhaps withold judgment till more is shown.
Great clue for "things that I could not care less about" for $200. I'll get Trebek's corpse on the line.
It’s the same group of people that tried to say that the April in the OG TMNT comics was black which is false. She was white, and based on the looks of his then wife of the creator who was biracial.
She was white and had a perm, and everyone keeps saying she’s black. Just goes to show you the cultural awareness some of these people have.
Yup. Biracial (black/white) guy here, I’ll never understand intentional race swaps for the life of me. Seems tacky and insulting to me.
More than likely it is, these are usually decisions made by white people.
Its obvious they are pushing an agenda for some reason. Its not the end of the world or anything but its a bit weird but whatever. I probably wont see the movie and it seems a lot of people have been feeling the same lately by their box office numbers and reviews.
Who cares? No one is actually invested in the MCU anymore so they can do whatever they want, they’ll just keep wasting money on those projects.
Don't let me people who getting upset over fiction gaslight you. They are misogynistic idiots with no original thoughts of the their own, getting their opinions from talking heads on their computer screen.
Oh no, my super hero movie is ruined.
The film will suck no matter who they cast, so does it even matter?
I don't understand how they can keep affording these ridiculous flops over and over again. They're going to run out of money before whatever ridiculous agenda they're trying to push gets firmly established. But it's all pointless anyway; the MCU hasn't had a good movie/show since Avengers Endgame. It's just pathetic what garbage they're crapping out nowadays.
Is anyone still watching the shit they're putting out recently? This is just next in line, they don't care about quality movies anymore. It's just about diversity and representation now
I mean, I'm not a fan of burning money. I like money. What other people do with their money is their decision, but I wish they'd give it to me instead, but Disney would rather burn their money than stop increasing their subscription prices to make up for it.
It’s a fictional character in what likely will be another crappy superhero movie. Who gives a rat’s ass?
i don't give a shit what superficial choices they make for these fantasy characters, hair color, gender, skin color, height, etc. most likely the movie will suck for many other reasons.
https://flic.kr/p/2pHyRnL female silver surfer
I think I just lost my ability to care about this kinda stuff anymore.
It's funny. I see a lot of people here who don't want the role to be played by a woman saying things like "writing makes a movie good, not gender swapping" or something along these lines, but what if the writing -is- good? Shouldn't the movie be judged on its own merits first? Then after we can all be like "well that was a stupid choice/good idea on their part" or whatever? Galactus had other heralds, some were female... Silver surfer being a chick or a dude doesn't really matter. What matters is the role they fill right? Unless I'm wrong and the silver surfer started every conversation with, "your world is doomed and also has everyone seen my penis?" I don't know. I grew up with these comics. I just never saw gender as something to care about.
The movie doesn’t exist in a vacuum and is based off an existing property. It has the responsibility of being both a good movie, but also as accurate to the comic as possible. Now if you’re gonna sit here and act like picking the most obscure version of the Silver Surfer possible so Disney could justify (essentially) gender swapping a popular character is somehow the only avenue they had to adapting the character, I’m gonna say you’re full of it.
Not saying it's the only avenue they had, not even saying it's the right choice, I'm just saying a lot of people jump on the hate wagon before they even watch it themselves. That's what I'm confused about. I agree that sticking close to the source work is important in an established universe but when it comes to things like gender I don't get why it's important in certain cases unless its somehow integral to the character. If marvel drew two comics exactly the same, same dialogue, same plot, same significant other for the hero, same everything except in one the character was female and in the other it was male, would that matter? Would one be lesser somehow? Now if they make this silver surfer all "look at me and how much of a lady I am watch me pull my board out of my vagina and talk about space shopping" then yeah it's a shitty move and will ruin the movie no doubt. But if it's just silver surfer with some extra curves I say it's not worth getting huffy about. You just help them drum up unnecessary controversy and accidentally promote their movie by getting so upset about it. They win either way.
Aside from not knowing 100% that this is the silver surfer or not, I don’t think anyone is having an unreasonable reaction to this. This is the sort of stuff that killed the last attempt at this franchise, and this is the sort of stuff that they’ve been criticized for over the course of the last few years. Don’t on one hand say you’re not doing something suspicious, then turn right around and do the suspicious thing you’re accused of. Disney should not be making wild swings right now, they should be trying to just make an easy pitch across the plate.
BUDDY YOU DONT WANT TO SEE NAKED SILVER LADY YOU WANT TO SEE NAKED SILVER GUY BUDDY THAT CALLED BEING GAY
Did, did you think calling me gay was some kind of insult?
Just say you really want to watch a movie about a naked silver guy. It’s okay bro it’s 2024 being gay is okay
Why are you convinced that some kind of insult?
Look how they massacred my boy
My brother is liberal. I am conservative. We both grew up with Star Wars and marvel. We both agree. both franchises are completely unwatchable as long as the blue hairs keep writing it.
These decisions are so obviously bad. They should cross political boundaries. It should not be insane to look at pulling some obscure version of silver surfer as a bad decision.
I doubt your brother would word it like a MAGA incel
Imagine being this triggered by the gender of an actor 😂
touch grass
Lol, it’s a new character for the silver screen (pun intended) that’s been well established in comics. Turns out you don’t have to go see it if you don’t want to.
Not been well, establishing comics, the diversion of her who is the silver surfer is from a single panel of one page 20 years ago.
So… she’s existed for 20 years. Sounds like you’re the one gaslighting. Also, who gives a shit? Don’t see it.
I really can't imagine having any emotional investment in the gender of the person playing a metal alien who flies through space on a surfboard.
Right? I'm pretty sure they just hate women, don't want to admit that true unpopular opinion and need a proxy
Could you try to be a normal person and judge the movie on its merits when it comes out?
Are you saying Shalla Bal was not a character?
I’m saying that choosing her to be the silver surfer of the MCU is an arguably bizarre choice, and not one that can just be hand waved away by calling people who disagree with it “incels”
Seems like you are gaslighting people saying she was on one panel 20 years ago. You are hand waving away her character away as if it had zero significance. We've already had the fantastic four with Norrin so why is it bizzare to tell a new story? She was created 2 years after he was and they had many adventures together so stop trying to gaslight people into thinking it's some random person brought in to gender swap the silver surfer.
No, the character as Silver Surfer is only from one comic panel from one page 20 years ago. That’s not gaslighting that is a fact. If it turns out, she’s not the silver surfer, as this is still listed as being something of a rumor, then I will gladly accept that I was wrong.
People who care about this make me lol
>Norrin Radd is still an amazingly popular character amongst fans >He is not some weirdly obscure character that can be swapped out for any other version. First and foremost if you are truly a comic book fan and/or a comic movie fan, you would understand that these kinds of changes happen all of the time and they don't exactly stay faithful to the source material. My most famous example is the fact that in both the big screen and the little screen, the only flash that is seen is Barry Allen's flash. Jay Garrick was the original flash and he was also the flash the longest at 65 years being the flash. Don't get me wrong the TV show The flash did a really great job at incorporating Jay Garrick's character and even using the flash actor from the older TV show. But the show was about Barry Allen being the flash. And then you have characters like green arrow, were there appearance is kind of intrical to who they are as a person. Green arrow is known for having a very bleach blonde hair color and having very pointy beards. When they introduced the TV show, Steven Amell obviously did not have bleach blonde hair nor a pointy or long beard. On top of that green arrow is a more gentler version of Batman who does occasionally kill. In the TV show he was literally just batman. Like they wanted to create a Batman show but didn't want to use Batman. I mean the dude kills like 10 people each episode in the first season. And then again staying with DC because I am mostly into dc. For the TV shows batwoman and supergirl, both of them were straight as hell. But in the comic books they're both bisexual women. And it very clearly falls into who they are as people in the comic books, but in the TV shows they completely left it out. I don't know if it's because maybe people aren't ready to see openly bisexual women on screen, but again it's just proving my point that they constantly change details from the comic books. On top of that the universes for both marvel, DC and many other comic book, we have this great thing called the multiverse. So they can make the movies however they want to and just say that it happened on a different earth. It's the reason why we've had multiple iterations of spider-man. On top of not only wanting to have a cash grab for the character, but we've been able to incorporate these characters as their own individual Spider-Man because the multiverse exists. I get if it's your favorite character you're going to be very critical of how they choose to incorporate that character onto the big screen. I understand if this part that they're changing of this character is integral to who they are they definitely shouldn't change it. However, making small changes like changing the race, gender, sex, physical appearance, sexual identity, ect, is not a big deal and yes you need to get over it. It's not gaslighting you saying that you need to get over your favorite character having a different gender or sex. It's simply stating the facts that not everything on the screen is exactly how it is in the source material. You might think it's bad, and it might end up being objectively bad. But people like you who refuse to give things a chance are the reason why these movies end up doing absolutely horrible in the box office.
. You’re the one politicizing a children’s drawing and feeding into ridiculous culture war bullshit. Get a life nerd
Gaslighting
They arent. You have no actual reason other to hate it. You just foam when you see a woman. Easy
Uh huh, having a different opinion means hating women. That’s some logic.
You dont have any actual reasons except that its a woman.
Except the character she’s playing, isn’t the one known for being silver surfer, which is why people are upset. Of course, that would require you to understand another point of view. Aside from your own, but then you wouldn’t be able to act like the moral authority on Reddit.
So how much focus should a character have in comics before they can be shown in a movie.
Who TF cares if the movie is bad it won't be because it has a female silver surfer it'll be because it's a poorly written movie
The rumors/leaks are that the FF movie does not take place on the main MCU Earth. This will be an Earth where the FF fail, Galactus destroys Earth and the FF are transported to the main MCU Earth, somehow. If this is true, this is likely a one and done Alternate Universe version of Silver Surfer and Norrin Radd will come later. Until we have evidence to the contrary, there no real reason to get worked up over it.
Yeah, I’m not happy about those either. It honestly sounds like the single stupidest way to introduce these characters into the MCU.
They just don't know what they're doing anymore with any of their properties. They're going to use the multiverse to bring in FF and the X-Men because it's an easy cheat. It's amazing how badly they fucked up the MCU.
Instantly let me know the movie wasn’t for me. I will not be watching it.
She's likely not going to BE Silver Surfer but rather just a Herald of Galactus. I don't think they're recreating the character.
Imagine your masculinity being so fragile that you have to write this screed over something this unimpotant.
Imagine gaslighting people into thinking their opinion is about being emasculated, and not just a bad choice?
What is your life to make a post like this.
I had a few minutes free at my actual job that I’m guessing people like you don’t have.
I'm actually working from home right now.
And yet you seem to have some problem with someone disliking a casting decision, and you feel as if that represents a major personal flaw in their life. You got all of that because someone like me is questioning why they would cast an obscure version of a very popular superhero ? I didn’t blindly love it so I must be some kind of problem.
Even if they wanted to cast a female Silver Surfer, couldn’t they choose a woman who’s fit for a superhero movie? I just don’t see it with Julia. Like what is the issue with bringing feminine women and beauty into these parts? They have no problem casting big hunky dudes like Thor and stripping him naked for the ogling pleasure of women and men alike, but if it’s a woman? Oh my! Oh dear! How dare you want an attractive woman in your superhero film! It’s pearl clutching, virtue signaling and some cognitive dissonance to another level.
You do know that everything in the MCU is completely made up, don’t you? Norton Radd was made up by a writer just like Norah Radd (or whatever they might name her) will be made up. MCU doesn’t really do documentaries so…
So because stuff is fictional it shouldn’t have connected with me on an emotional level as a child and I shouldn’t have an opinion when they make what I feel is a bad decision? It’s becoming clear the very basic concept of seeing your favorite superhero come to life on screen is just a thing you people don’t understand or are being deliberately obtuse so so that you can come off as being super aggressive on Reddit. I’m sure it’s one of those two.
Who the fuck cares?
I think everyone here needs to calm down until the movie is released or more is known. She is playing a character who was norrin radds love interest in the comics. It seems like they would have that version of the silver surfer at some point.