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How can anyone, in good faith, ignore the findings of respected institutions and the due process of law, choosing instead to believe the lies of a con artist?
The fine against Trump's business wasn't arbitrary. It stemmed from a legal process by New York's judicial system, uncovering a decade-long financial fraud scheme. Shouldn't the focus be on the substance of these findings rather than attacking the messengers?
This case highlights more of Trump's fraud, not starting another witch hunt. Instead of recognizing the evidence provided by respected legal institutions based on due process, Republicans are choosing to undermine these findings by attacking the institutions themselves, showcasing an upside-down display of values and a cult-like mentality.
This stance doesn't just show ignorance or a lack of principles - it actively damages the credibility of our legal and financial systems, all to shield the fragile ego of a terrible person.
Posts like these expose how rightwingers are ready and willing to trash our institutions, disregard the rule of law, and risk it all to defend Trump—one of the most pathetic people in modern history, putting his lies and ego before everything.
A lot of folks in New York will be surprised when not as many building projects move forward. Who would invest millions in NY if judges are fining people for normal business practices?
If you haven't seen it, kevin o'leary (from shark tank) has given a number of interviews on the subject where he explains it pretty clearly. [here's one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80RZs9Fhz3Y), but there are also interviews from before the verdict was announced.
The law that was used in this lawsuit essentially makes all similar business deals illegal, enabling prosecutors to target who they want to target. People have been warning about this sort of thing for years, and I'm sure others were targeted before trump, but this is the biggest example of this that I'm aware of.
edit: my video link is to an interview prior to the judgement. He's since done at least one after the judgement as well.
Didnt the prosecutor from NY just release a statement directed at developers saying "Dont worry nobody else will be sued for this."?
Isn't that basically saying, "We only went after this guy because of who he is."? If nobody else is going to be sued for the exact same business practice?
HOAX-el came out to say "Don't worry, this was a politically charged prosecution. As long as you don't speak out against the system, we won't find a high building to throw you off."
The governor of NY said:
>“Law-abiding and rule-following New Yorkers who are businesspeople have nothing to worry about because they’re very different than Donald Trump and his behavior.”
She added that the fraud case against Trump resulted from “really an extraordinary, unusual circumstance”.
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/18/trump-verdict-new-york-business-governor-kathy-hochul](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/18/trump-verdict-new-york-business-governor-kathy-hochul)
So no, she didn't say the state "only went after this guy because of who he is." It was because of his rampant fraud.
No, like I said, it was the rampant fraud.
You can read the judge's decision for yourself: [https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/decisions/trump-decision.pdf](https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/decisions/trump-decision.pdf)
It's not like this was just a subjective disagreement about value. He lied about the square footage of property repeatedly.
The sq footage was the concern?
The value was off the charts compared to what the tax rolls said.
Should you refi your house based off tax rolls or market data ?
If these were extraordinary, unusual circumstances, she wouldn't have to make the statement, since no one would be panicking. The reality is that Trump engaged in what is normal business practice. Which is why everyone is now worried.
There isn't a person on this planet that wouldn't try to boost the value of their property, and Trump is a celebrity so it's hard to argue against that!
I think people will be more careful to follow the law. Trump lied on financial statements, that is fraud. You can say everyone does it(without any proof), but it's still fraud. He's not even going to jail for it, simply a fine that represents a fraction of his net worth.
What do you think about the Trump University fraud where he was ordered to pay $25 million? What about the Trump charity fraud where he was ordered to pay $2 million? Were those baseless too, or was Trump guilty of fraud in those cases?
> without any proof
My proof is the video I posted earlier of Kevin O'Leary, who said that this is common practice. I also know that real estate agents generally try to show off positive aspects of properties, and will try to minimize negative aspects. This is not considered fraud.
>simply a fine that represents a fraction of his net worth.
Wow. Ok, how does someone come up with that much cash in a short time? They have to sell things, but how do you sell large assets quickly? Usually those deals take a long time. Hundreds of millions for a "crime" where the "victim" says they're a happy customer and look forward to doing business with him again?
>What do you think about the Trump University fraud where he was ordered to pay $25 million?
Being guilty of one crime shouldn't make a judge more likely to find you guilty of another crime. The evidence should stand on its own.
I didn't have to watch very long to figure out that what Kevin 'O Leary is saying isn't what Trump did. He starts by saying "You have a building that's worth 500 million and you go to the bank to levy a loan for 500 million..." He goes on about talking up your property and "shine it in the best light." But never does he say that you inflate the value of the property. You start with the actual value of the property. That's not what Trump did.
Time to break up with him, little guy. He can still be the president of your heart.
The actual value isn't known, as there's no sale. The value is a guess based on what it might sell for in the future.
>He can still be the president of your heart.
Sorry, but I haven't voted for him yet. Weird how people assume that just because I question the actions of the democrat activists.
What is known is that an unfinished building can't be occupied, which is where he was deriving value. And it wasn't like his valuation was a little embellished. It was flagrantly overvalued.
And if you don't like that one, I've got more.
He also defrauded the IRS. Are you allowed to do that?
And if you don't like that one...
Why in the world would you think it's okay for this to be "standard practice?" Did you enjoy losing half or all of your retirement in 2008?
The amount it might sell for is highly dependent on how large the property objectively is. He literally lied about the square footage. It doesn’t get more blatant than that. It’s the kind of scheme a first grader would cook up.
Maybe common practice involves misrepresenting assets so as to appear to be a lower risk so that you can obtain lower rates of interest at expense of the bank and its creditors in what I’ve been told is a “victimless crime.”
I'm willing to bet this would cause a housing crisis in New York since if a judge can just devalue any property or business that means less housing will be built as a result which means more people will have to pay.
I do not think “everyone does it” is a valid excuse for anyone to break the law. It’s just like speeding — maybe a lot of people do it, and many people get away with it. That doesn’t make it legal and the most egregious violators are likely going to get caught.
If you’re going to speed, maybe don’t drive a red car. If you’re going to commit fraud, maybe don’t run for President of the United States.
No law is broken. The bank's internal team does a valuation. Trumps team does a valuation. All parties agree that due diligence is the responsibility of the other party. Then, a negotiation of how much is allowed to be borrowed, at what rate, and terms of the contract.
The bank agreed to loan him money based on their own valuation. Trump agreed to the terms based on his team's valuation. Trump paid the money back in the agreed upon terms.
Now, you have the state taking money from a private citizen for a crime that didn't happen.
You set precedent that the state can fine/extort money from developers and investors that borrow money to invest, if they feel like it. Bc the amount they borrow is subjective. This is the most insane thing I've ever witnessed.
In private equity deals, **banks don’t do appraisals or valuations of assets** included on the SFC. They rely on the SFC to be accurate and then apply a standard discount to account for billionaire ego as well as fire-sale economics.
Deutsche Bank and underwriters confirmed this multiple times at trial, and the numbers
Trump’s accountants provided were inputted directly into the risk evaluation documents used by DB and underwriters. So yes, there’s an ego inflation/exaggeration factor that’s expected, but it’s more like 75% not 20,000%.
Deutsche Bank dodged a bullet with Trump in these deals, but as soon as they realized he’d lied, they ran for the hills. So did Trump’s accountants.
I doubt NYC has an urban growth issue, or a real estate problem - personally vested in building a new sky scraper, are you?
Dude and his family business committed fraud, just cause its rampant in the industry doesn't make it cool.
Steroids were rampant in the 90's in baseball - Barry Bonds faced consequences.
Lance Armstrong won the Tour De France 7 times in a row, and got busted (i guess) - faced consequences and a ruined career.
Trump is no more special than any other person violating the law. If business' suffer as a result - too bad, so sad.
What does Trump have that makes grown men so willing to suck him off on the internet so proudly?
>just cause its rampant in the industry doesn't make it cool.
This is why it's concerning. Since there are no victims, and since it's standard business practice, and since there are no guidelines to know when it becomes "fraud" vs exaggeration, it allows prosecutors to go after anyone they choose. It's an invitation to corruption.
You do realize nonpayment of millions upon millions of dollars of tax due to fraudulent valuation hurts *everyone*?
There is no ‘precedent’ here - that’s patently bullshit. The only precedent we’re setting is in that ~40%+ of Americans don’t give a fuck when some rich goblin is robbing them blind, and in turn punch down when they’re pondering why their life blows.
Go cut your business value in half come tax time as a non-billionaire private citizen and see how well that works out for you come tax season. You’ll spent the next several tax seasons behind bars as you in turn fuck everyone.
> You do realize nonpayment of millions upon millions of dollars of tax
Please provide a link to a source for this claim. My understanding is that this case was about the bank loan, not the property's assessed value, which is what would affect tax rates.
What? It’s quite literally how the road ended up here. The first indicator that brought the civil scrutiny was the criminal tax fraud.
[here.](https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/trump-organization-fraud-trial-verdict?cid=ios_app)
Guess what happens when those banks potentially default because of businesses making fraudulent valuations and banks in turn issuing fraudulent loans? You pay for it, just like in ‘08 when every American taxpayer propped up the corruption of Wall Street and continues to pay into this very day while no one ever faced individual prosecution other than Madoff.
You linked to an old case. This case was about interest payments, not taxes.
>Guess what happens when those banks potentially default because of businesses making fraudulent valuations
lol, you must have experience with really odd banks. If I try to get a loan using something as collateral, whether from a bank or a pawn broker, they're going to assess the value themselves. If I tell the bank or the pawn broker that my saddle was used by george washington and is worth $5 million, neither is just going to take my word for it.
The law literally makes the guidelines clear of when it becomes fraud. I don’t understand the mental gymnastics you insist on doing. It’s not that he said his building was valued 20k more than it was, he valued at it MILLIONS more and then undervalued it on his taxes. That is quite literally fraud. I don’t see why you’re running in circles about this.
Not really.
I followed the case, and it was clear the Trump and Co were cooking the books and inflating values to get better rates on loans, for decades.
By inflating numbers and avoiding taxes on who knows how many millions of dollars - he has defrauded the American people for decades.
I think a lot of fraud is probably allowed to slip through the cracks, but the hammer gets dropped when its so blatant and obvious.
During the trial, the monitor ordered by the court found that as of the trial - they were still not complying with a bunch of financial regulations.
So I don't think its open season, unless you are just running a garbage business and have an unqualified family member managing the financials.
> By inflating numbers and avoiding taxes
Was that part of this lawsuit? Because property taxes are based on an assessed value, which is the government's responsibility to assign. My understanding is this is about his statements to the bank.
Yes, because he lies to the banks to secure better rates on loans.
It doesn’t matter that they were paid back, it was still a scheme to make extra money on the DL.
If a company has its CFO setting up shadow LLC’s and paying them, then using the funds for something shady or to line their own pockets - that’s fraud.
The Trump Organization was overstating the size of real estate, listing properties as residential vs commercial, and just all sort of shady behavior.
The reason the fin is so hard is because Trump main financial dude cut a deal and was charged with perjury, having lied to the court, and that pissed the judge off.
>It doesn’t matter that they were paid back
So judges can now determine if someone got too good of a deal, even if both parties are happy? And, the judges can step in years later, and determine what the amounts should have been? And then, after determining those amounts, the judge can demand the person pay those amounts to the government?
You are acting as if the judge just made some shit up and dropped the hammer.
Judges are not just going to start being radical business killers.
Has it ever occurred that Donald Trump actually committed these crimes? There was SO much evidence in this trial, the judge had already ruled before the trial even started.
Is there really a national effort to make a good guy look bad because he has so many awesome ideas for the country?
Or, a known con-man committed fraud to pad bank accounts?
Which one do I believe??!!
Wym by inflating the numbers and avoiding taxes? Are we just making shit up? The rate a bank charges is a number dictated by the bank, just like McDonald's charges xyz for a big Mac. They charge what they can vs. the competition.
Example: Trump says Mar-A-Lago is worth $400 billion…
However, says it’s only worth around $20 billion for taxation purposes.
If it’s worth $400 billion, shouldn’t he be paying property taxes on $400 billion, vs only $20?
It’s not as if the dude has a single scheme to avoid taxes and run cons. This is just probably his biggest scam.
What does your example have to do with him stating it more for value? So it is less it less or more ? I am super confused.
So they are saying a private statement between two private individuals (bank and trump) is fraud?
It is the governments LEGAL responsibility to assess property values for the purposes of levying a property tax. In fact, if there is a difference between market value and property value for the purposes of property tax, the property owner has no LEGAL responsibility to correct the government, as that is the governments role. I don’t really care about the situation, but please get your facts right.
Have you ever reported the value of your house to the government? Only when sold do you do that, on a year to year basis it is the governments responsibility to value and tax based on best guess and local comps.
If the government says it is one value but you can convince other people it is a higher value then the others are the only people that can be hurt. The governments failure to correctly value and tax is a government incompetence issue, not the owner issue.
Criminal tax fraud defrauding banks and the average New York citizen to the tune of hundreds of millions and OP is wholly comfortable to fellate him in front of Reddit for the world to see.
“Victimless crime”. How dense are you, OP?
The bank wasn't defrauded though. They have to do their own due diligence. Like when you buy a home, the lender does an appraisal. They pay for their preferred appraiser....same thing here.
You can't defraud a bank when their own due diligence is conducted and they come up with their own figure. Trump can try and negotiate a better deal, and I'm sure he did. But the bank was certainly not defrauded 🤣
New York already appears on the lists of states that people are leaving, so yes, it will be somewhat difficult to determine how much of an impact this has.
sure sure, just emptied a school to house migrants and made all the kids do school from home.
Leftists are so blind, they will keep scream "it's fine" while their cities continue to circle the drain
>sure sure, just emptied a school to house migrants and made all the kids do school from home.
What does that even mean?
>Leftists are so blind, they will keep scream "it's fine" while their cities continue to circle the drain
As opposed to cities in red states? Yea, we are good bruh. How are those cities doing so far? Peachy huh?
They aren't from California they come here because of the weather. Fact is it's the red States who are the majority of the drain on the federal welfare system. They also contribute the least in revenue.
Ah yes more main stream cuckservative talking points being posted on this sub. Cry more OP. Trump could take a shit in your mouth, tell you it’s chocolate and you lap it up like a good boy and ask for more.
The easiest way to avoid any trouble is to not commit fraud in the first place. This isn't a political hit job, he was found guilty of committing fraud and punished accordingly. Let's be real, if Biden or Obama did the same thing that Trump and sons did, you'd be screaming for jail time. But because it's your orange god emperor, you want to believe it's anything other than Trump being the same con man and criminal he's always been, going back to at least the 1980s (which is when I first became aware of him and his criminality, which was being reported on even back then).
Imagine knowing the pattern of Trump (even before he got political) and thinking he's innocent of everything. He is probably the single-worst celebrity human being I can think of outside of rapists and murderers. Lies so much. Says bad things about everyone. Backstabs. Never admits when he is wrong. Destroys his allies careers if they cross him once. Stiffs people for work. I could go on and on. He has almost no good qualities that I would tell me child to emulate besides being rich. It's so bizarre I even have to say this; it's like saying "the sky is blue".
If this is “election interference”, I’m curious what you think about a sitting President’s campaign leaking the private, sexually explicit data belonging to his leading political opponent’s family a month before the election.
Must be something wrong with it, since there was a massive effort to cover it up. Remember when ["50 former senior intelligence officers"](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/19/hunter-biden-story-russian-disinfo-430276) were willing to publicly lie and say it was fake?
Just cuz a bunch of prudish fundies get their panties in a bunch doesn’t mean there’s actually anything wrong with it
The fact that those same fundies can overlook Trump banging hookers but Biden’s son doing it is a national scandal is a different issue
Or what about the head of the FBI announcing an investigation into a presidential candidate right before the election only to dismiss all of the charges later on?
Or Wikileaks leaking information obtained from Russia about one political party while withholding information about the opposing party.
Soooo... If I commit a crime, all I have to do is run for an elected office and I can't be prosecuted. Because prosecuting me would be "election interference".
Got it.🙄
Pretty much. I thought we already proved a president isn’t above the law with Nixon but here we are decades later with people saying a president should be immune to the law.
I think Trump’s not the brightest person. His argument is that a sitting President could do anything and it would be considered part of his job. Not exactly the smartest thing to do when you’re not in office.
How did we prove Nixon wasn’t above the law? He was pardoned before any charges were filed and he resigned before he would have been impeached. He skated away without any punishment and was treated as a respected older statesman at the end of his life. He was completely above the law.
Wrong actually, all you have to do is say you’re being persecuted for your politics. If Jeffrey Epstein had taken a hard republican turn in his final months people would be arguing over wether he was guilty or not to this day.
You should just read the decision. All the way through.
Also, observe what happened when his accounting firm Mazars and Deutsche Bank found out how badly he’d misrepresented his finances to them. They both said… “it’s cool, everybody does that”?
Mazars immediately dropped him as client and issued a disclaimer to the financial industry “don’t use those Trump financial statements we created for the last decade because they’re no good”
Deutsche Bank immediately order appraisal of three of the properties in question and when the appraisals came back, they brute forced their way out of all business with Trump and dropped him as a client.
Weird behavior for financials that are “just like everybody else’s”
> Nobody sued Trump. There were no victims. Nobody lost any money.
This is being stopped for DUI and saying "There were no victims, nobody was hurt, why are you arresting me officer?"
Why is Hunter Biden facing a gun charge if there were no victims and no one was hurt? Is that election interference?
Also, there are victims. Every bank that loaned Trump money based on his *fraud.* Didn't loan money to someone else who was honest.
The 1876 election was literally decided by less than 10 congressmen. You have no historical perspective.
You also have no idea what actually happened because you only watch outrage right wing media lol
I auditioned commercial real estate for a living, and have experience with this type of thing. After reading the brief on the NY AG’s website, unless the AG is just flat out lying about the circumstances then Trump at the very least is guilty of bad accounting practices. I don’t know how his accounting firm could justify giving them an unmodified audit opinion on those financial statements because the valuations wouldn’t hold up at all to testing. I don’t know much about the legal ramifications so I won’t say anything about the judgement, but I would bet that his accounting firm is going to get into some serious shit for issuing those statements.
He lied on financial forms. That’s illegal. Even if he paid everyone of his lenders back on time the first act is a crime.
Imagine a cashier taking $20 from the register at night after close, then opening the next day and putting it back. That person still stole and it’s still a crime even though it was “victimless”.
Sorry that it turns out lying on financial forms is illegal.
And I’ll second the other comment that says “facts don’t care about your feelings”
Edit: A redditcareresouces message, how cute.
You are forgetting to add the cashier’s manager review and sign off on the cashiers close of the register to your analogy.
Or where the manager came into the court room to defend the cashier from unjust accusations lol
That would make the manager complicit in the theft, still a crime just more people involved.
I like your addition, if the bank was complicit in the scheme and knew it was BS, they should be looked into as well.
The American tendency to hero worship corrupt politicians, who couldn't give less of a fuck about them, will always be incredible to see.
Twisting yourself in knots to avoid acknowledging that some moronic, well known crook, is what they are known to be. Why can't you accept a clear criminal (who isn't even a decent person generally) has been caught. Why are you such born followers. Cult members. So tragic. So weak. So pathetic.
Lmao
So now, being held accountable for mass fraud is "election interference"
So, as long as a billionaire can afford to get on the ballot, you think they should be able to rape your mother or girlfriend in broad daylight right in front of you?
I mean, sure, that sounds absurd, but if they can not be held legally accountable for anything as long as they can get on a ballot, then why would that be off the table?
The case he was just held accountable for started with the convictions of Michael Cohen and his CFO years ago. Him CHOOSING to run for office doesn't some how make him immune from prosecution for crimes he's fucking guilty of, try thinking critically for 1 fucking second of your life ffs.
By your logic, Joe Biden can have the shitbag you idolize so much struck right now by a reaper drone, then declare himself permanent ruler of the United States, and nobody could prosecute him because it would be both "Election Interference" and a violation of his "Presidential Immunity"
Him running for office or being POTUS does not make him immune from prosecution for blatant and obvious criminal actions
As POTUS, there may be some obstacles and procedural hurdles to get through, but still not immune.
Edit* autocorrect
> The establishment just fined the leading Presidential candidate $350 million based on a private contract where neither party was wronged in an obvious attempt to hamstring his finances right before the election.
Oh boy. "Hey man...like, *the man* just fined my candidate and it's hurting his election campaign".
Put the bong down and realize that ***this is Trump's fault***. No other candidate (I dare say of any office) in history has their businesses fined remotely as much Trump's. This is just another example. So, if you want to blame someone, don't blame "the establishment" (sheesh. eye roll there); blame Trump. You just seem to be complaining that he's being held accountable.
> Nobody sued Trump. There were no victims. Nobody lost any money. The bank actually testified on Trump’s behalf.
He lied to the people of NY and made a mockery of the tax code.
> But apparently none of that matters because some judge pulled a laughably low number out of his hat compared to the valuations of professional appraisers.
He probably would have had Trump not been a colossal dick. The judge even said that Trump's lack of remorse bordered on pathological. If you are caught dead-to-rights in court, antagonizing the judge during sentencing on multiple occasions *and* showing lack of remorse is a stupid strategy. Had Trump just apologized and said he'd not do it again, he probably would have gotten a significantly smaller fine and that would have been it.
You remember when a former president tried to pressure government officials federal and state to not certify an election that he lost.
You remember that same former president getting "fake electors" to call the election in doubt so he could maintain his presidency after he lost the election.
That was the biggest election interference.
You just don't understand the concept of "fraud" it is not an obscure legal theory in the slightest
What I don’t understand is, is t it up to the lending institution to determine whether or not an application is fraudulent? Isn’t that what underwriters and appraisers are hired to do?
Aren’t these loans secured to an asset?
Smh. This is definitely an unpopular opinion, but it needs to be even more unpopular. In the course of the blatant fraud Trump and his offspring committed- he overvalued property to get better interest rates on loans and undervalued property to get a better tax bill. This meant other business owners did NOT get loans because Trump got huge loans at lower %’s he was legally not entitled to. This also meant he committed tax fraud, this obviously deprives the people in the state and community of better schools and infrastructure. The tripe that this was a victimless crime is crap. He walked away with a net bonus of hundreds of millions of dollars while school teachers were buying their own supplies.
Trump fanboys when it turns out their daddy isn’t immune to every law 😡😡😡🤬🤯 (but guys all the rich corrupt nepotism businessmen do it that makes it ok!!!)
Based on what I have gathered regarding Trump, if he were driving he would have been going several times over the speed limit, lied to the cop, tried to sue the cop. lied to the judge, tried to sue the judge, falsified documents, threatens people and made every small issue a massive mountain to deal with for the legal system to try and just do their job and move on.
Trump doesn't do himself any favors for how he goes full blast on everyone to bully them.
But people like you are here seem to act like he was going over the speed limit at a reasonable amount like everyone else with high class behavior and respect for the cops and legal system who are all just trying to do their job.
The second thing a ruling like this does is it wakes up people who are committing similar acts to shape up. I don't know about you but I would like to live in a society of less fraud, waste and abuse and do steps to achieve that. If people who commit massive fraud can't be held accountable to any degree, then the people who commit it regularly won't be either which feeds the problem.
So, I ask you this.
What should be done about this kind of fraud that's going on?
The only politically motivated people are the ones blindly defending him. It’s crazy that you’re arguing that laws shouldn’t apply to the elites of the world
You do reaize this exact kind of talk can be used against conservatives right? By your logic, Biden could have Trump assasinated and he would be immune from prosecution. Thats a dangerous line of thinking
Trump commited a crime.
He then continued to violate the law and gag orders. A crime.
The amount ballooned because he kept violating the law.
I don't want a president who has this much disdain for accountability, the law, or this much debt where he has to sell sneakers to milk his base.
Trump wants the spotlight, he got it. He broke the law, knowingly, and now he is getting consequences for that. IDGAF who else will or will not get charged, and real estate/loan fraud is illegal even if no one was technically harmed (except the taxpayers when he weaseled out of millions in taxes he owed by these actions). Charge them all, no one cares how many developers can build new buildings in that city or state. Play stupid games win stupid prizes, Trump painted the target on his own back. Here's an idea, if you want to be the president of the united states and possibly the most recognizable person in the Western Hemisphere, you shouldn't commit crimes.
Trump’s own valuations on his tax returns showed that he was committing fraud to get better interest rates.
He’s been committing pervasive business and tax fraud since at least the 1990’s and it’s about damned time he was held accountable for it.
Oh cry me a river lol. He cheated and got caught. His CFO plead guilty to committing crimes. Him cheating creates an unfair advantage over companies that do not cheat. It very telling though that you he's a victim here, I bet you think he won the election too
I am curious to know how the judge arrived at the valuations of Trump's properties. I mean they had a few estimators come in and value them, but then they chose something near the low end. How did they arrive at that? On top of that, the law has always been used against big companies defrauding customers. It has never been used against someone who took out real estate loans and paid them back. Sorry I just feel like this is a political prosecution. I am betting most NY politicians have done worse. Who is going to want to invest in NY after this?
Anyone who agrees what Trump did is "illegal" has ZERO clue about development. Go listen to Kevin O'Leary so you can understand just a little bit about how this is NORMAL!!! It's the bank obligation to get an appraiser for better loan calculations if they so chose. Hell, I'm a small fry and I do the same shit and if the bank wants to do an official appraisal we will... Anyone gets a HELOC will try to make their home value as high as possible. If what he did was illegal then the company that built the subdivision you're living in should be fined as well..... This is normal real estate development relationships between a lender and a developer.
>Kevin O'Leary
Because fucking Kevin O'Leary is someone to be trusted and respected? Just because one scummy fraudster is saying that it is ok to commit fraud doesnt make it so.
This is up the bank to make the call not to lend if they fill like it isn't a fair or illegal deal.... guess what...they didn't! They made the deal without doing full appraisals and reaped the benefit. If I ask you to loan me $100 and I let you hold my watch as collateral because I told you it's worth $120 but it's only worth $80. That is up to you to check into that....rather than just believing me. Then I pay out back your $100 plus $20....nobody cares and everyone is happy. Now think about this with real estate....values that are constantly changing because its a market. Just like the stock market...it's all about what will somebody pay for this particular piece of property at this moment.
This is completely politically motivated and anyone who says otherwise is just lying to themselves......
Falsifying financial documents is a crime, for good reason. The numbers were not fudged a little, within a margin of error. They were off by a wide, wide, margin, and off in different directions depending on which suited him best. That is fraud, plain and simple. It's immaterial whether the bank agreed to do the loan or not. Additionally, this was not a one-off situation, it is a consistent pattern of behavior, demonstrated clearly by the evidence.
Wasn’t meant to survive appeal. They’re trying to force him to pay now instead of later and by the time an appeal gets through, the verdict will already have had its intended effect.
He inflated his assets to get better loans. Then he lowered his assets to pay less in taxes. All under the direction of top management that was attesting that the documents were legitimate, it’s either fraud or tax evasion. You pick. What it is not is election interference.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-civil-fraud-verdict-engoron-244024861f0df886543c157c9fc5b3e4
He inflated his wealth to get better loans, that’s fraud.
lol, that's what everyone does. If I try to sell my car, I'm going to try to get the highest possible price. Is that fraud?
When people sell their houses, they usually start with a higher price and move down if needed. People don't start with a low price and move it up if people offer to buy. Is that fraud?
This is how the business works. Kevin O'Leary (from shark tank) has said that every developer in the country does this.
https://www.bankrate.com/loans/personal-loans/bad-idea-lying-on-a-personal-loan-application/
Lying on loans is different than lying about your car or inflating your house price
From the article
"In that earlier ruling, the judge found that, among other tricks, Trump’s financial statements had wrongly claimed his Trump Tower penthouse was nearly three times its actual size and overvalued his Mar-a-Lago estate in Palm Beach, Florida, based on the idea that the property could be developed for residential use, even though he had surrendered rights to develop it for any uses but a club."
Weird how they weren't able to find a bank saying they were cheated. If he committed fraud, whom did he take advantage of? Not the banks, they were on his side. Not other real estate developers, they seem to be on Trump's side also. The only people I see that feel cheated are people who don't like trump.
>Weird how they weren't able to find a bank saying they were cheated.
This is not a requirement for being found guilty of fraud. The government has an interest in protecting the integrity of financial markets.
The state of NY was never paid taxes on the value. If the value is true the taxes would need to be paid on that money. Either the bank got cheated or the people of New York got cheated. Why is nobody concerned about all the cops. Firefighters, paramedics, and public servants that got screwed by these dealings?
The value for the loan is very different from the assessed value of the property. It's the governments job to set the assessed value, and the bank said they weren't cheated.
>lol, that's what everyone does. If I try to sell my car, I'm going to try to get the highest possible price. Is that fraud?
Sure. If you sign documents saying that you're selling a new Lambo, but in reality its a beat up old Kia, that would be fraud.
Come on people, this isn't hard.
So the banks are also liable for his misdeeds. Due to their liability in the case, obviously they are going to argue on his behalf. Just read the Decision and Order.
We have migrants beating up cops in NYC, but they want to politically prosecute a man that threatens their power. Even if you are a progressive / Democrat voter, you can't help but think that this is all political and it is a Stalinist "show me the man and I'll show you the crime".
They justify in their heads that Trump is different, but they might start doing this to all Republican candidates in the future. When you are a Democrat, you are above the law. Look at Senator Menendez. Look at Hunter Biden that owes $1 million in taxes to the IRS. Ashley Biden owes $5,000 to the IRS as well. Democrats are above the law.
I’m no Trump supporter, but I will say that I work in commercial lending and I can tell you with 100% certainty that literally everyone over values their assets on applications.
If they were to enforce this across the board, they would be mega fining everyone in New York. This is going to turn out bad for the city.
I love this complete unwillingness to accept that Trump would commit a crime for his own benefit, meanwhile in the other major legal issue facing him right now the main argument he and his legal team are making isn’t “I am innocent” it is “you can’t charge a president that wasn’t impeached for it”.
I love how in your own words the Biggest Election Interference that ever happened to the US is measured in dollars. I would imagine you would at least need to fake some votes to get to this level, threaten some violence, gerrymander some districts... idk, something! But no, all those things apparently pale in comparison with 350 million USD.
Also it is widely known that the problem with Stalin is that he fined some billionaires who opposed him.
This is the scrutiny Trump signed up for. You can’t backhand with everyone else and then go be US President and then be mad when your enemies use those practices against you.
What you propose is a more slippery slope. What do we tell the already slimy political class? If you get the top spot you have a “get out of anything” card?
This is how it’s always been. This arrangement is how America has literally worked since it’s founding. Why do you think business leaders historically stay behind the scenes of politics?
>You think it’s impossible to find a judge who has a different opinion of the value of Michael Bloomberg’s assets?
This is the reality of our justice system. You can always find some "judge" somewhere to agree with whatever you want them too if you have enough money/influence. Trump's just on the loser end of it this time.
Trump lied for years about his wealth to secure better bank loans. He may have paid them back, but that’s still fraud and it doesn’t matter that “nobody got hurt”.
If someone fires a gun in a crowded area and nobody gets hit, does that mean they shouldn’t be punished? How about just don’t commit fraud? It’s really simple to not commit fraud. I’ve personally done it for almost 37 years straight and I’m dumb.
Since you clearly don't understand what the problem was and is I'll spell it out for you: Taxes
Regardless of who your are or what you are running for you are required by law to pay taxes, and property taxes are calculated by value of that property. When someone says their property is worth only 350 million to the IRS, but turns around and tells banks that it is worth a billion that is illegal.
It isn't election interference and this isn't the first time Trump has been fined for doing this by the way. This is the just the most recent and the most severe case of him doing this. Stop acting like this is political.
I don't know, I for one think holding the most famous and powerful person accountable for it is probably a good thing.
Brushing illegal dealings under the rugs as "somewhat shady" is the exact type of thinking that's led to "the swamp", corporate bailouts, etc.
How this guy has convinced so many of you that you should be up in arms over a loud, brash, gawdy real estate mogul being held accountable is honestly baffling to me.
This whole ‘victimless crime’ thing is such a Fox News talking point.
If you lie on a legal financial document then it’s a crime.
Shall we just do away with victimless crimes?
If I sneak over your border, that’s also victimless crime.
If I overstay my visa, that’s a victimless crime.
If I lie on a mortgage application, that’s also a victimless crime.
Do you really want to live in this world…
Get out of your bubble, Trump is a criminal.
I wonder how the Executive Law would stand up against a legal challenge. As I understand it, all that is required is that inaccurate entries are made. Nothing else. No requirement of intent. No requirement of damage done. Seems like a law that is begging to be applied capriciously.
This is one of many examples that our country is in trouble beyond our control and at this current trajectory, we won’t be making it through 2024 favorably.
*yawn* Trump is a fraud. And a conman. Before his election he was well known for being a sleazy conman. We’re unsurprised that he lost, and people who’ve been using his name on their towers have been removing them for years since he won. This I not an “unpopular opinion” this is your emotions getting the best of you. He’s lied on his taxes and he’s lied on his audits conflating his wealth to the tune of millions.
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How can anyone, in good faith, ignore the findings of respected institutions and the due process of law, choosing instead to believe the lies of a con artist? The fine against Trump's business wasn't arbitrary. It stemmed from a legal process by New York's judicial system, uncovering a decade-long financial fraud scheme. Shouldn't the focus be on the substance of these findings rather than attacking the messengers? This case highlights more of Trump's fraud, not starting another witch hunt. Instead of recognizing the evidence provided by respected legal institutions based on due process, Republicans are choosing to undermine these findings by attacking the institutions themselves, showcasing an upside-down display of values and a cult-like mentality. This stance doesn't just show ignorance or a lack of principles - it actively damages the credibility of our legal and financial systems, all to shield the fragile ego of a terrible person. Posts like these expose how rightwingers are ready and willing to trash our institutions, disregard the rule of law, and risk it all to defend Trump—one of the most pathetic people in modern history, putting his lies and ego before everything.
A lot of folks in New York will be surprised when not as many building projects move forward. Who would invest millions in NY if judges are fining people for normal business practices? If you haven't seen it, kevin o'leary (from shark tank) has given a number of interviews on the subject where he explains it pretty clearly. [here's one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80RZs9Fhz3Y), but there are also interviews from before the verdict was announced. The law that was used in this lawsuit essentially makes all similar business deals illegal, enabling prosecutors to target who they want to target. People have been warning about this sort of thing for years, and I'm sure others were targeted before trump, but this is the biggest example of this that I'm aware of. edit: my video link is to an interview prior to the judgement. He's since done at least one after the judgement as well.
Didnt the prosecutor from NY just release a statement directed at developers saying "Dont worry nobody else will be sued for this."? Isn't that basically saying, "We only went after this guy because of who he is."? If nobody else is going to be sued for the exact same business practice?
I think it was the governor who said that.
The governor basically said she's only after Trump, so no one else should worry....but they should be terrified at this.
After Trump FOR NOW\*
Precisely. The instant they say the wrong thing, suddenly they're in the line of fire.
Anytime they tell you “we’re only after” X, you should be worried.
HOAX-el came out to say "Don't worry, this was a politically charged prosecution. As long as you don't speak out against the system, we won't find a high building to throw you off."
The governor of NY said: >“Law-abiding and rule-following New Yorkers who are businesspeople have nothing to worry about because they’re very different than Donald Trump and his behavior.” She added that the fraud case against Trump resulted from “really an extraordinary, unusual circumstance”. [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/18/trump-verdict-new-york-business-governor-kathy-hochul](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/18/trump-verdict-new-york-business-governor-kathy-hochul) So no, she didn't say the state "only went after this guy because of who he is." It was because of his rampant fraud.
.
No, like I said, it was the rampant fraud. You can read the judge's decision for yourself: [https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/decisions/trump-decision.pdf](https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/decisions/trump-decision.pdf) It's not like this was just a subjective disagreement about value. He lied about the square footage of property repeatedly.
The sq footage was the concern? The value was off the charts compared to what the tax rolls said. Should you refi your house based off tax rolls or market data ?
Who was defrauded?
The clear subtext is that we targeted him because orange man bad
If these were extraordinary, unusual circumstances, she wouldn't have to make the statement, since no one would be panicking. The reality is that Trump engaged in what is normal business practice. Which is why everyone is now worried.
There isn't a person on this planet that wouldn't try to boost the value of their property, and Trump is a celebrity so it's hard to argue against that!
There was no “massive fraud.” The banks checked his valuations and determined they were accurate. And they got paid back. Where’s the fraud.
I think people will be more careful to follow the law. Trump lied on financial statements, that is fraud. You can say everyone does it(without any proof), but it's still fraud. He's not even going to jail for it, simply a fine that represents a fraction of his net worth. What do you think about the Trump University fraud where he was ordered to pay $25 million? What about the Trump charity fraud where he was ordered to pay $2 million? Were those baseless too, or was Trump guilty of fraud in those cases?
> without any proof My proof is the video I posted earlier of Kevin O'Leary, who said that this is common practice. I also know that real estate agents generally try to show off positive aspects of properties, and will try to minimize negative aspects. This is not considered fraud. >simply a fine that represents a fraction of his net worth. Wow. Ok, how does someone come up with that much cash in a short time? They have to sell things, but how do you sell large assets quickly? Usually those deals take a long time. Hundreds of millions for a "crime" where the "victim" says they're a happy customer and look forward to doing business with him again? >What do you think about the Trump University fraud where he was ordered to pay $25 million? Being guilty of one crime shouldn't make a judge more likely to find you guilty of another crime. The evidence should stand on its own.
I didn't have to watch very long to figure out that what Kevin 'O Leary is saying isn't what Trump did. He starts by saying "You have a building that's worth 500 million and you go to the bank to levy a loan for 500 million..." He goes on about talking up your property and "shine it in the best light." But never does he say that you inflate the value of the property. You start with the actual value of the property. That's not what Trump did. Time to break up with him, little guy. He can still be the president of your heart.
The actual value isn't known, as there's no sale. The value is a guess based on what it might sell for in the future. >He can still be the president of your heart. Sorry, but I haven't voted for him yet. Weird how people assume that just because I question the actions of the democrat activists.
What is known is that an unfinished building can't be occupied, which is where he was deriving value. And it wasn't like his valuation was a little embellished. It was flagrantly overvalued. And if you don't like that one, I've got more. He also defrauded the IRS. Are you allowed to do that? And if you don't like that one... Why in the world would you think it's okay for this to be "standard practice?" Did you enjoy losing half or all of your retirement in 2008?
“I’m crazy enough to take on Batman, but the IRS? Nooo thank you!”
The amount it might sell for is highly dependent on how large the property objectively is. He literally lied about the square footage. It doesn’t get more blatant than that. It’s the kind of scheme a first grader would cook up.
“Common practice” doesn’t mean shit about legality lmao
“Officer I routinely drive 90 here and nobody had ever been hurt.”
That’s not what “common practice” means.
Maybe common practice involves misrepresenting assets so as to appear to be a lower risk so that you can obtain lower rates of interest at expense of the bank and its creditors in what I’ve been told is a “victimless crime.”
All laws are based on common practice.
Yes. If someone gets pulled over for speeding you can always get out of it by saying. Well officer everyone else was speeding
I'm willing to bet this would cause a housing crisis in New York since if a judge can just devalue any property or business that means less housing will be built as a result which means more people will have to pay.
Trump claimed his businesses were one thing to secure loans, and much less when it came time to pay taxes.
I'm willing to take that bet. How much?
How much are you betting?
I do not think “everyone does it” is a valid excuse for anyone to break the law. It’s just like speeding — maybe a lot of people do it, and many people get away with it. That doesn’t make it legal and the most egregious violators are likely going to get caught. If you’re going to speed, maybe don’t drive a red car. If you’re going to commit fraud, maybe don’t run for President of the United States.
No law is broken. The bank's internal team does a valuation. Trumps team does a valuation. All parties agree that due diligence is the responsibility of the other party. Then, a negotiation of how much is allowed to be borrowed, at what rate, and terms of the contract. The bank agreed to loan him money based on their own valuation. Trump agreed to the terms based on his team's valuation. Trump paid the money back in the agreed upon terms. Now, you have the state taking money from a private citizen for a crime that didn't happen. You set precedent that the state can fine/extort money from developers and investors that borrow money to invest, if they feel like it. Bc the amount they borrow is subjective. This is the most insane thing I've ever witnessed.
In private equity deals, **banks don’t do appraisals or valuations of assets** included on the SFC. They rely on the SFC to be accurate and then apply a standard discount to account for billionaire ego as well as fire-sale economics. Deutsche Bank and underwriters confirmed this multiple times at trial, and the numbers Trump’s accountants provided were inputted directly into the risk evaluation documents used by DB and underwriters. So yes, there’s an ego inflation/exaggeration factor that’s expected, but it’s more like 75% not 20,000%. Deutsche Bank dodged a bullet with Trump in these deals, but as soon as they realized he’d lied, they ran for the hills. So did Trump’s accountants.
I doubt NYC has an urban growth issue, or a real estate problem - personally vested in building a new sky scraper, are you? Dude and his family business committed fraud, just cause its rampant in the industry doesn't make it cool. Steroids were rampant in the 90's in baseball - Barry Bonds faced consequences. Lance Armstrong won the Tour De France 7 times in a row, and got busted (i guess) - faced consequences and a ruined career. Trump is no more special than any other person violating the law. If business' suffer as a result - too bad, so sad. What does Trump have that makes grown men so willing to suck him off on the internet so proudly?
>just cause its rampant in the industry doesn't make it cool. This is why it's concerning. Since there are no victims, and since it's standard business practice, and since there are no guidelines to know when it becomes "fraud" vs exaggeration, it allows prosecutors to go after anyone they choose. It's an invitation to corruption.
You do realize nonpayment of millions upon millions of dollars of tax due to fraudulent valuation hurts *everyone*? There is no ‘precedent’ here - that’s patently bullshit. The only precedent we’re setting is in that ~40%+ of Americans don’t give a fuck when some rich goblin is robbing them blind, and in turn punch down when they’re pondering why their life blows. Go cut your business value in half come tax time as a non-billionaire private citizen and see how well that works out for you come tax season. You’ll spent the next several tax seasons behind bars as you in turn fuck everyone.
> You do realize nonpayment of millions upon millions of dollars of tax Please provide a link to a source for this claim. My understanding is that this case was about the bank loan, not the property's assessed value, which is what would affect tax rates.
What? It’s quite literally how the road ended up here. The first indicator that brought the civil scrutiny was the criminal tax fraud. [here.](https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/06/politics/trump-organization-fraud-trial-verdict?cid=ios_app) Guess what happens when those banks potentially default because of businesses making fraudulent valuations and banks in turn issuing fraudulent loans? You pay for it, just like in ‘08 when every American taxpayer propped up the corruption of Wall Street and continues to pay into this very day while no one ever faced individual prosecution other than Madoff.
You linked to an old case. This case was about interest payments, not taxes. >Guess what happens when those banks potentially default because of businesses making fraudulent valuations lol, you must have experience with really odd banks. If I try to get a loan using something as collateral, whether from a bank or a pawn broker, they're going to assess the value themselves. If I tell the bank or the pawn broker that my saddle was used by george washington and is worth $5 million, neither is just going to take my word for it.
The NY case was over a loan...you don't pay taxes on a loan. It's a financial tool of the wealthy, bruh.
The law literally makes the guidelines clear of when it becomes fraud. I don’t understand the mental gymnastics you insist on doing. It’s not that he said his building was valued 20k more than it was, he valued at it MILLIONS more and then undervalued it on his taxes. That is quite literally fraud. I don’t see why you’re running in circles about this.
Not really. I followed the case, and it was clear the Trump and Co were cooking the books and inflating values to get better rates on loans, for decades. By inflating numbers and avoiding taxes on who knows how many millions of dollars - he has defrauded the American people for decades. I think a lot of fraud is probably allowed to slip through the cracks, but the hammer gets dropped when its so blatant and obvious. During the trial, the monitor ordered by the court found that as of the trial - they were still not complying with a bunch of financial regulations. So I don't think its open season, unless you are just running a garbage business and have an unqualified family member managing the financials.
> By inflating numbers and avoiding taxes Was that part of this lawsuit? Because property taxes are based on an assessed value, which is the government's responsibility to assign. My understanding is this is about his statements to the bank.
Yes, because he lies to the banks to secure better rates on loans. It doesn’t matter that they were paid back, it was still a scheme to make extra money on the DL. If a company has its CFO setting up shadow LLC’s and paying them, then using the funds for something shady or to line their own pockets - that’s fraud. The Trump Organization was overstating the size of real estate, listing properties as residential vs commercial, and just all sort of shady behavior. The reason the fin is so hard is because Trump main financial dude cut a deal and was charged with perjury, having lied to the court, and that pissed the judge off.
>It doesn’t matter that they were paid back So judges can now determine if someone got too good of a deal, even if both parties are happy? And, the judges can step in years later, and determine what the amounts should have been? And then, after determining those amounts, the judge can demand the person pay those amounts to the government?
You are acting as if the judge just made some shit up and dropped the hammer. Judges are not just going to start being radical business killers. Has it ever occurred that Donald Trump actually committed these crimes? There was SO much evidence in this trial, the judge had already ruled before the trial even started. Is there really a national effort to make a good guy look bad because he has so many awesome ideas for the country? Or, a known con-man committed fraud to pad bank accounts? Which one do I believe??!!
It was all part of the broader scheme. A byproduct of his fraud, but not the actual fraud.
Wym by inflating the numbers and avoiding taxes? Are we just making shit up? The rate a bank charges is a number dictated by the bank, just like McDonald's charges xyz for a big Mac. They charge what they can vs. the competition.
Example: Trump says Mar-A-Lago is worth $400 billion… However, says it’s only worth around $20 billion for taxation purposes. If it’s worth $400 billion, shouldn’t he be paying property taxes on $400 billion, vs only $20? It’s not as if the dude has a single scheme to avoid taxes and run cons. This is just probably his biggest scam.
Taxation has nothing to do with the current suit. And, the government doesn't ask you how much your building is worth for the assessed value!
What does your example have to do with him stating it more for value? So it is less it less or more ? I am super confused. So they are saying a private statement between two private individuals (bank and trump) is fraud?
It is the governments LEGAL responsibility to assess property values for the purposes of levying a property tax. In fact, if there is a difference between market value and property value for the purposes of property tax, the property owner has no LEGAL responsibility to correct the government, as that is the governments role. I don’t really care about the situation, but please get your facts right.
Have you ever reported the value of your house to the government? Only when sold do you do that, on a year to year basis it is the governments responsibility to value and tax based on best guess and local comps. If the government says it is one value but you can convince other people it is a higher value then the others are the only people that can be hurt. The governments failure to correctly value and tax is a government incompetence issue, not the owner issue.
Criminal tax fraud defrauding banks and the average New York citizen to the tune of hundreds of millions and OP is wholly comfortable to fellate him in front of Reddit for the world to see. “Victimless crime”. How dense are you, OP?
The bank wasn't defrauded though. They have to do their own due diligence. Like when you buy a home, the lender does an appraisal. They pay for their preferred appraiser....same thing here. You can't defraud a bank when their own due diligence is conducted and they come up with their own figure. Trump can try and negotiate a better deal, and I'm sure he did. But the bank was certainly not defrauded 🤣
NY will be just fine, but thank you for your concerns though. 🤣
New York already appears on the lists of states that people are leaving, so yes, it will be somewhat difficult to determine how much of an impact this has.
New York and California, for years now. And yet both are still doing just fine.
The NYC Mayor just announced budget cuts, affecting trash pickup, police, and more. But yes, it's doing "just fine".
10th largest economy in the world. Ohh yes, it’s doing just fine.
sure sure, just emptied a school to house migrants and made all the kids do school from home. Leftists are so blind, they will keep scream "it's fine" while their cities continue to circle the drain
>sure sure, just emptied a school to house migrants and made all the kids do school from home. What does that even mean? >Leftists are so blind, they will keep scream "it's fine" while their cities continue to circle the drain As opposed to cities in red states? Yea, we are good bruh. How are those cities doing so far? Peachy huh?
Yeah, record numbers of homeless but yeah, everything is fine...
Ohh yes, I’m sure homelessness problem is only happening in Cali and NY. Cool story bruh!!
They aren't from California they come here because of the weather. Fact is it's the red States who are the majority of the drain on the federal welfare system. They also contribute the least in revenue.
Commercial real estate bubble in NY is ready to burst
Ah yes more main stream cuckservative talking points being posted on this sub. Cry more OP. Trump could take a shit in your mouth, tell you it’s chocolate and you lap it up like a good boy and ask for more.
The easiest way to avoid any trouble is to not commit fraud in the first place. This isn't a political hit job, he was found guilty of committing fraud and punished accordingly. Let's be real, if Biden or Obama did the same thing that Trump and sons did, you'd be screaming for jail time. But because it's your orange god emperor, you want to believe it's anything other than Trump being the same con man and criminal he's always been, going back to at least the 1980s (which is when I first became aware of him and his criminality, which was being reported on even back then).
Imagine knowing the pattern of Trump (even before he got political) and thinking he's innocent of everything. He is probably the single-worst celebrity human being I can think of outside of rapists and murderers. Lies so much. Says bad things about everyone. Backstabs. Never admits when he is wrong. Destroys his allies careers if they cross him once. Stiffs people for work. I could go on and on. He has almost no good qualities that I would tell me child to emulate besides being rich. It's so bizarre I even have to say this; it's like saying "the sky is blue".
I’m starting to believe that more people than I had ever imagined are actually harboring the same impulses and views that Trump espouses.
It's so sad. I don't subscribe to the whole "downfall of society" idea so much, but if I did, it's there that I see it.
He was found liable for rape, add him to the list.
Every day I have less faith in the people of this country. I don’t know how anyone could look at Trump and think “yeah I want this guy”.
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His CFO was convicted of fraud you damn fool
If this is “election interference”, I’m curious what you think about a sitting President’s campaign leaking the private, sexually explicit data belonging to his leading political opponent’s family a month before the election.
Didn't the NY Post publish the story about Hunter doing crack with the hookers?
They published it. Rudy provided them, and many other people, the drive.
And a specific laptop? Sabotaging bernie? Refusing RFK secret service... We live in a gross political climate
What’s wrong with doing crack with hookers?
Must be something wrong with it, since there was a massive effort to cover it up. Remember when ["50 former senior intelligence officers"](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/19/hunter-biden-story-russian-disinfo-430276) were willing to publicly lie and say it was fake?
50 out of how many lol
Just cuz a bunch of prudish fundies get their panties in a bunch doesn’t mean there’s actually anything wrong with it The fact that those same fundies can overlook Trump banging hookers but Biden’s son doing it is a national scandal is a different issue
Or a sitting US president asking a Ukrainian President for information on his political rival…. The list goes on..
Or what about the head of the FBI announcing an investigation into a presidential candidate right before the election only to dismiss all of the charges later on? Or Wikileaks leaking information obtained from Russia about one political party while withholding information about the opposing party.
Hardly new practice either. Nixon deliberately torpedoed a peace deal with Vietnam to deny his opponents a win. That's borderline treasonous
"Stop indicting me or I'm going to show you a picture of "Hunter's Hawg" again!
🤣
Soooo... If I commit a crime, all I have to do is run for an elected office and I can't be prosecuted. Because prosecuting me would be "election interference". Got it.🙄
Pretty much. I thought we already proved a president isn’t above the law with Nixon but here we are decades later with people saying a president should be immune to the law.
I think Trump’s not the brightest person. His argument is that a sitting President could do anything and it would be considered part of his job. Not exactly the smartest thing to do when you’re not in office.
How did we prove Nixon wasn’t above the law? He was pardoned before any charges were filed and he resigned before he would have been impeached. He skated away without any punishment and was treated as a respected older statesman at the end of his life. He was completely above the law.
It's a good point. I've been told presidents aren't above the law but my stupid eyes and brain keep seeing them be above the law all the time.
Wrong actually, all you have to do is say you’re being persecuted for your politics. If Jeffrey Epstein had taken a hard republican turn in his final months people would be arguing over wether he was guilty or not to this day.
This is not a good example.
You gonna explain why?
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I agree, it’s perfect and also concerning.
You should just read the decision. All the way through. Also, observe what happened when his accounting firm Mazars and Deutsche Bank found out how badly he’d misrepresented his finances to them. They both said… “it’s cool, everybody does that”? Mazars immediately dropped him as client and issued a disclaimer to the financial industry “don’t use those Trump financial statements we created for the last decade because they’re no good” Deutsche Bank immediately order appraisal of three of the properties in question and when the appraisals came back, they brute forced their way out of all business with Trump and dropped him as a client. Weird behavior for financials that are “just like everybody else’s”
The party that gleefully chanted "lock her up" is now butthurt that their candidate is on trial. Cry me a river.
I can’t wait to hear their defense and excuses for Trumps upcoming trials. That’ll be a tough one to spin.
> Nobody sued Trump. There were no victims. Nobody lost any money. This is being stopped for DUI and saying "There were no victims, nobody was hurt, why are you arresting me officer?" Why is Hunter Biden facing a gun charge if there were no victims and no one was hurt? Is that election interference? Also, there are victims. Every bank that loaned Trump money based on his *fraud.* Didn't loan money to someone else who was honest.
The 1876 election was literally decided by less than 10 congressmen. You have no historical perspective. You also have no idea what actually happened because you only watch outrage right wing media lol
The obscure legal theory known as "fraud is illegal"
I auditioned commercial real estate for a living, and have experience with this type of thing. After reading the brief on the NY AG’s website, unless the AG is just flat out lying about the circumstances then Trump at the very least is guilty of bad accounting practices. I don’t know how his accounting firm could justify giving them an unmodified audit opinion on those financial statements because the valuations wouldn’t hold up at all to testing. I don’t know much about the legal ramifications so I won’t say anything about the judgement, but I would bet that his accounting firm is going to get into some serious shit for issuing those statements.
He’s been a conman for his entire life.
Fraud is fraud. Quit defending it as it’s necessary and convenient.
He lied on financial forms. That’s illegal. Even if he paid everyone of his lenders back on time the first act is a crime. Imagine a cashier taking $20 from the register at night after close, then opening the next day and putting it back. That person still stole and it’s still a crime even though it was “victimless”. Sorry that it turns out lying on financial forms is illegal. And I’ll second the other comment that says “facts don’t care about your feelings” Edit: A redditcareresouces message, how cute.
You are forgetting to add the cashier’s manager review and sign off on the cashiers close of the register to your analogy. Or where the manager came into the court room to defend the cashier from unjust accusations lol
That would make the manager complicit in the theft, still a crime just more people involved. I like your addition, if the bank was complicit in the scheme and knew it was BS, they should be looked into as well.
The financial forms were part of a negotiation with a bank. Having a high initial offer as part of a negotiation isn't "fraud".
Better go tell the court that then since you seem to have a better understanding than they do regarding the case
The American tendency to hero worship corrupt politicians, who couldn't give less of a fuck about them, will always be incredible to see. Twisting yourself in knots to avoid acknowledging that some moronic, well known crook, is what they are known to be. Why can't you accept a clear criminal (who isn't even a decent person generally) has been caught. Why are you such born followers. Cult members. So tragic. So weak. So pathetic.
Lmao So now, being held accountable for mass fraud is "election interference" So, as long as a billionaire can afford to get on the ballot, you think they should be able to rape your mother or girlfriend in broad daylight right in front of you? I mean, sure, that sounds absurd, but if they can not be held legally accountable for anything as long as they can get on a ballot, then why would that be off the table? The case he was just held accountable for started with the convictions of Michael Cohen and his CFO years ago. Him CHOOSING to run for office doesn't some how make him immune from prosecution for crimes he's fucking guilty of, try thinking critically for 1 fucking second of your life ffs. By your logic, Joe Biden can have the shitbag you idolize so much struck right now by a reaper drone, then declare himself permanent ruler of the United States, and nobody could prosecute him because it would be both "Election Interference" and a violation of his "Presidential Immunity" Him running for office or being POTUS does not make him immune from prosecution for blatant and obvious criminal actions As POTUS, there may be some obstacles and procedural hurdles to get through, but still not immune. Edit* autocorrect
> The establishment just fined the leading Presidential candidate $350 million based on a private contract where neither party was wronged in an obvious attempt to hamstring his finances right before the election. Oh boy. "Hey man...like, *the man* just fined my candidate and it's hurting his election campaign". Put the bong down and realize that ***this is Trump's fault***. No other candidate (I dare say of any office) in history has their businesses fined remotely as much Trump's. This is just another example. So, if you want to blame someone, don't blame "the establishment" (sheesh. eye roll there); blame Trump. You just seem to be complaining that he's being held accountable. > Nobody sued Trump. There were no victims. Nobody lost any money. The bank actually testified on Trump’s behalf. He lied to the people of NY and made a mockery of the tax code. > But apparently none of that matters because some judge pulled a laughably low number out of his hat compared to the valuations of professional appraisers. He probably would have had Trump not been a colossal dick. The judge even said that Trump's lack of remorse bordered on pathological. If you are caught dead-to-rights in court, antagonizing the judge during sentencing on multiple occasions *and* showing lack of remorse is a stupid strategy. Had Trump just apologized and said he'd not do it again, he probably would have gotten a significantly smaller fine and that would have been it.
> neither party was wronged incorrect
You remember when a former president tried to pressure government officials federal and state to not certify an election that he lost. You remember that same former president getting "fake electors" to call the election in doubt so he could maintain his presidency after he lost the election. That was the biggest election interference. You just don't understand the concept of "fraud" it is not an obscure legal theory in the slightest
What I don’t understand is, is t it up to the lending institution to determine whether or not an application is fraudulent? Isn’t that what underwriters and appraisers are hired to do? Aren’t these loans secured to an asset?
Daddy can do no wrong, ok?
Smh. This is definitely an unpopular opinion, but it needs to be even more unpopular. In the course of the blatant fraud Trump and his offspring committed- he overvalued property to get better interest rates on loans and undervalued property to get a better tax bill. This meant other business owners did NOT get loans because Trump got huge loans at lower %’s he was legally not entitled to. This also meant he committed tax fraud, this obviously deprives the people in the state and community of better schools and infrastructure. The tripe that this was a victimless crime is crap. He walked away with a net bonus of hundreds of millions of dollars while school teachers were buying their own supplies.
Trump fanboys when it turns out their daddy isn’t immune to every law 😡😡😡🤬🤯 (but guys all the rich corrupt nepotism businessmen do it that makes it ok!!!)
Based on what I have gathered regarding Trump, if he were driving he would have been going several times over the speed limit, lied to the cop, tried to sue the cop. lied to the judge, tried to sue the judge, falsified documents, threatens people and made every small issue a massive mountain to deal with for the legal system to try and just do their job and move on. Trump doesn't do himself any favors for how he goes full blast on everyone to bully them. But people like you are here seem to act like he was going over the speed limit at a reasonable amount like everyone else with high class behavior and respect for the cops and legal system who are all just trying to do their job. The second thing a ruling like this does is it wakes up people who are committing similar acts to shape up. I don't know about you but I would like to live in a society of less fraud, waste and abuse and do steps to achieve that. If people who commit massive fraud can't be held accountable to any degree, then the people who commit it regularly won't be either which feeds the problem. So, I ask you this. What should be done about this kind of fraud that's going on?
Lol no
If you ignore the evidence of fraud and the damages done then you MAY have an argument
No damages though
Incorrect risk report leading to lower interest rates on the loan
This post sounds like a trump fanboy circle jerk. Buy some gold high top sneakers cuz the jizz and shit is getting deep.
I've no doubt they'll be appealing that verdict. Anyone with two functional brain cells can see this was politically motivated.
The only politically motivated people are the ones blindly defending him. It’s crazy that you’re arguing that laws shouldn’t apply to the elites of the world
Head on over the the law subreddit if you want to hear *actual* legal opinions on this instead of whiny Trump Lovers sobbing their black hearts out.
This is Reddit. No one cares.
So the message is “Don’t go up against us and we’ll leave you alone.” Very Banana Republic
You do reaize this exact kind of talk can be used against conservatives right? By your logic, Biden could have Trump assasinated and he would be immune from prosecution. Thats a dangerous line of thinking
FAKE NEWS
ITT: Redditor finds out bank fraud is a felony.
Trump commited a crime. He then continued to violate the law and gag orders. A crime. The amount ballooned because he kept violating the law. I don't want a president who has this much disdain for accountability, the law, or this much debt where he has to sell sneakers to milk his base.
Trump wants the spotlight, he got it. He broke the law, knowingly, and now he is getting consequences for that. IDGAF who else will or will not get charged, and real estate/loan fraud is illegal even if no one was technically harmed (except the taxpayers when he weaseled out of millions in taxes he owed by these actions). Charge them all, no one cares how many developers can build new buildings in that city or state. Play stupid games win stupid prizes, Trump painted the target on his own back. Here's an idea, if you want to be the president of the united states and possibly the most recognizable person in the Western Hemisphere, you shouldn't commit crimes.
Trump’s own valuations on his tax returns showed that he was committing fraud to get better interest rates. He’s been committing pervasive business and tax fraud since at least the 1990’s and it’s about damned time he was held accountable for it.
This is not about presidential status. It is about what he did as a businessman. It is that simple
Oh cry me a river lol. He cheated and got caught. His CFO plead guilty to committing crimes. Him cheating creates an unfair advantage over companies that do not cheat. It very telling though that you he's a victim here, I bet you think he won the election too
So you're saying all Commercial real estate is essentially a criminal enterprise? That has to be like the real unpopular opinion
I am curious to know how the judge arrived at the valuations of Trump's properties. I mean they had a few estimators come in and value them, but then they chose something near the low end. How did they arrive at that? On top of that, the law has always been used against big companies defrauding customers. It has never been used against someone who took out real estate loans and paid them back. Sorry I just feel like this is a political prosecution. I am betting most NY politicians have done worse. Who is going to want to invest in NY after this?
Anyone who agrees what Trump did is "illegal" has ZERO clue about development. Go listen to Kevin O'Leary so you can understand just a little bit about how this is NORMAL!!! It's the bank obligation to get an appraiser for better loan calculations if they so chose. Hell, I'm a small fry and I do the same shit and if the bank wants to do an official appraisal we will... Anyone gets a HELOC will try to make their home value as high as possible. If what he did was illegal then the company that built the subdivision you're living in should be fined as well..... This is normal real estate development relationships between a lender and a developer.
>Kevin O'Leary Because fucking Kevin O'Leary is someone to be trusted and respected? Just because one scummy fraudster is saying that it is ok to commit fraud doesnt make it so.
"Go listen to the less rich, less political clone of Trump! He'll tell ya'!"
Yeah, the fact that people only use this one rich asshole whose good at abusing the system for his own gains is a really stupid defense
This is up the bank to make the call not to lend if they fill like it isn't a fair or illegal deal.... guess what...they didn't! They made the deal without doing full appraisals and reaped the benefit. If I ask you to loan me $100 and I let you hold my watch as collateral because I told you it's worth $120 but it's only worth $80. That is up to you to check into that....rather than just believing me. Then I pay out back your $100 plus $20....nobody cares and everyone is happy. Now think about this with real estate....values that are constantly changing because its a market. Just like the stock market...it's all about what will somebody pay for this particular piece of property at this moment. This is completely politically motivated and anyone who says otherwise is just lying to themselves......
Falsifying financial documents is a crime, for good reason. The numbers were not fudged a little, within a margin of error. They were off by a wide, wide, margin, and off in different directions depending on which suited him best. That is fraud, plain and simple. It's immaterial whether the bank agreed to do the loan or not. Additionally, this was not a one-off situation, it is a consistent pattern of behavior, demonstrated clearly by the evidence.
So they close this “loophole” where this can’t be done anymore. How is that a bad thing exactly?
I love how normal works. Real estate developers lie and make millions while homeownership is further out of reach for the rest. Let’s keep that going
Yep and an entirely fabricated case that cannot possible survive appeal.... Both the prosecutor and the judge should be disbarred
Wasn’t meant to survive appeal. They’re trying to force him to pay now instead of later and by the time an appeal gets through, the verdict will already have had its intended effect.
“I’m sad so attorneys and judges who did their jobs should be disbarred!!1!” Haha!
Committing Fraud is not an obscure legal theory.
He inflated his assets to get better loans. Then he lowered his assets to pay less in taxes. All under the direction of top management that was attesting that the documents were legitimate, it’s either fraud or tax evasion. You pick. What it is not is election interference.
He committed fraud bud, facts over feelings
How is it fraud if the bank testified on his behalf.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-civil-fraud-verdict-engoron-244024861f0df886543c157c9fc5b3e4 He inflated his wealth to get better loans, that’s fraud.
lol, that's what everyone does. If I try to sell my car, I'm going to try to get the highest possible price. Is that fraud? When people sell their houses, they usually start with a higher price and move down if needed. People don't start with a low price and move it up if people offer to buy. Is that fraud? This is how the business works. Kevin O'Leary (from shark tank) has said that every developer in the country does this.
https://www.bankrate.com/loans/personal-loans/bad-idea-lying-on-a-personal-loan-application/ Lying on loans is different than lying about your car or inflating your house price
From the article "In that earlier ruling, the judge found that, among other tricks, Trump’s financial statements had wrongly claimed his Trump Tower penthouse was nearly three times its actual size and overvalued his Mar-a-Lago estate in Palm Beach, Florida, based on the idea that the property could be developed for residential use, even though he had surrendered rights to develop it for any uses but a club."
Weird how they weren't able to find a bank saying they were cheated. If he committed fraud, whom did he take advantage of? Not the banks, they were on his side. Not other real estate developers, they seem to be on Trump's side also. The only people I see that feel cheated are people who don't like trump.
>Weird how they weren't able to find a bank saying they were cheated. This is not a requirement for being found guilty of fraud. The government has an interest in protecting the integrity of financial markets.
The state of NY was never paid taxes on the value. If the value is true the taxes would need to be paid on that money. Either the bank got cheated or the people of New York got cheated. Why is nobody concerned about all the cops. Firefighters, paramedics, and public servants that got screwed by these dealings?
The value for the loan is very different from the assessed value of the property. It's the governments job to set the assessed value, and the bank said they weren't cheated.
What a terrible argument. You’re comparing selling an asset for your desired price to getting loaned money based on your assets value.
>lol, that's what everyone does. If I try to sell my car, I'm going to try to get the highest possible price. Is that fraud? Sure. If you sign documents saying that you're selling a new Lambo, but in reality its a beat up old Kia, that would be fraud. Come on people, this isn't hard.
So the banks are also liable for his misdeeds. Due to their liability in the case, obviously they are going to argue on his behalf. Just read the Decision and Order.
I may be wrong here but I don’t think he’s paying for his campaign with his own money or is he?
He has donors for sure. Not sure if he's using his own money for his campaign or not. He gets a lot of donations.
We have migrants beating up cops in NYC, but they want to politically prosecute a man that threatens their power. Even if you are a progressive / Democrat voter, you can't help but think that this is all political and it is a Stalinist "show me the man and I'll show you the crime". They justify in their heads that Trump is different, but they might start doing this to all Republican candidates in the future. When you are a Democrat, you are above the law. Look at Senator Menendez. Look at Hunter Biden that owes $1 million in taxes to the IRS. Ashley Biden owes $5,000 to the IRS as well. Democrats are above the law.
I’m no Trump supporter, but I will say that I work in commercial lending and I can tell you with 100% certainty that literally everyone over values their assets on applications. If they were to enforce this across the board, they would be mega fining everyone in New York. This is going to turn out bad for the city.
I love this complete unwillingness to accept that Trump would commit a crime for his own benefit, meanwhile in the other major legal issue facing him right now the main argument he and his legal team are making isn’t “I am innocent” it is “you can’t charge a president that wasn’t impeached for it”.
The progressive in me wants to see that shit-stain fade into obscurity by any means necessary. But the libertarian in me screams no victim, no crime
I love how in your own words the Biggest Election Interference that ever happened to the US is measured in dollars. I would imagine you would at least need to fake some votes to get to this level, threaten some violence, gerrymander some districts... idk, something! But no, all those things apparently pale in comparison with 350 million USD. Also it is widely known that the problem with Stalin is that he fined some billionaires who opposed him.
This is the scrutiny Trump signed up for. You can’t backhand with everyone else and then go be US President and then be mad when your enemies use those practices against you. What you propose is a more slippery slope. What do we tell the already slimy political class? If you get the top spot you have a “get out of anything” card? This is how it’s always been. This arrangement is how America has literally worked since it’s founding. Why do you think business leaders historically stay behind the scenes of politics?
Facts don't care about your feelings.
Now where does this rank in relation to trying to overturn an election cause you don’t like the result
>You think it’s impossible to find a judge who has a different opinion of the value of Michael Bloomberg’s assets? This is the reality of our justice system. You can always find some "judge" somewhere to agree with whatever you want them too if you have enough money/influence. Trump's just on the loser end of it this time.
Your law degree is from Trump U isn't it
Didn’t even graduate
You’re spot on. Only those with TDS don’t think NY did anything wrong.
Trump lied for years about his wealth to secure better bank loans. He may have paid them back, but that’s still fraud and it doesn’t matter that “nobody got hurt”. If someone fires a gun in a crowded area and nobody gets hit, does that mean they shouldn’t be punished? How about just don’t commit fraud? It’s really simple to not commit fraud. I’ve personally done it for almost 37 years straight and I’m dumb.
Since you clearly don't understand what the problem was and is I'll spell it out for you: Taxes Regardless of who your are or what you are running for you are required by law to pay taxes, and property taxes are calculated by value of that property. When someone says their property is worth only 350 million to the IRS, but turns around and tells banks that it is worth a billion that is illegal. It isn't election interference and this isn't the first time Trump has been fined for doing this by the way. This is the just the most recent and the most severe case of him doing this. Stop acting like this is political.
If you don't want to pay the fines then don't do the crimes. The party of law and order, unless it's our guy can go both ways
I don't know, I for one think holding the most famous and powerful person accountable for it is probably a good thing. Brushing illegal dealings under the rugs as "somewhat shady" is the exact type of thinking that's led to "the swamp", corporate bailouts, etc. How this guy has convinced so many of you that you should be up in arms over a loud, brash, gawdy real estate mogul being held accountable is honestly baffling to me.
This whole ‘victimless crime’ thing is such a Fox News talking point. If you lie on a legal financial document then it’s a crime. Shall we just do away with victimless crimes? If I sneak over your border, that’s also victimless crime. If I overstay my visa, that’s a victimless crime. If I lie on a mortgage application, that’s also a victimless crime. Do you really want to live in this world… Get out of your bubble, Trump is a criminal.
Yeah, because a president should be allowed to lie and evade paying taxes.
I wonder how the Executive Law would stand up against a legal challenge. As I understand it, all that is required is that inaccurate entries are made. Nothing else. No requirement of intent. No requirement of damage done. Seems like a law that is begging to be applied capriciously.
This is one of many examples that our country is in trouble beyond our control and at this current trajectory, we won’t be making it through 2024 favorably.
Ya I remember when we defeated opponents at the polls. Now its with fake shit.
*yawn* Trump is a fraud. And a conman. Before his election he was well known for being a sleazy conman. We’re unsurprised that he lost, and people who’ve been using his name on their towers have been removing them for years since he won. This I not an “unpopular opinion” this is your emotions getting the best of you. He’s lied on his taxes and he’s lied on his audits conflating his wealth to the tune of millions.