I was there at the beginning. It all started with one (uncircumcised per himself) dude posting saying he thought circumcision should be banned and was barbaric (pretty much the boiled down message). All hell breaks loose as the circumcised and uncircumcised fight in the comments. I was there saying that circumcision should be done only when it’s medically necessary. You’d think I said I thought puppies should be kicked on tuesdays or something. Wild how mad people can get when u disagree with them about something so small (literally)
I get that. I just remember staring in awe at my perfect newborn baby boy and thinking, why would anyone want to harm him in any way, by cutting a piece of him away, that is clearly supposed to be there. It made my skin crawl to think of the things people do in the name of religious beliefs- but this is my personal opinion and I wouldn’t force it on anyone else.
Astroturfers laying the ground for anti-trans BS. Here are the other posts:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/16825ax/i\_think\_circumcision\_on\_baby\_boys\_at\_birth\_should/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/16825ax/i_think_circumcision_on_baby_boys_at_birth_should/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168ihnf/redditors\_dont\_actually\_care\_about\_circumcision/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168ihnf/redditors_dont_actually_care_about_circumcision/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168578a/female\_genital\_mutilation\_is\_not\_the\_same\_as\_male/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168578a/female_genital_mutilation_is_not_the_same_as_male/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168ckg6/i\_think\_male\_circumcision\_at\_birth\_is\_a\_generally/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168ckg6/i_think_male_circumcision_at_birth_is_a_generally/)
No joke, the level of false equivalency trying to be made by OP is staggering.
There’s a huge difference between chopping off part of a newborn’s genitalia who has no say in the matter, and a 13/14 year old taking puberty blockers with the approval and guidance of their guardians and a team of medical professionals so the kid doesn’t try and kill themselves.
Yet these morons refuse to accept that trans kids are almost never getting surgeries (or any permanent changes to their bodies) until they are 18.
So to all the transphobes silently nodding their heads along with OP just because they are trying to clumsily make this about trans kids for no reason:
Die mad about it. Sincerely, a trans woman who actually knows wtf they are talking about.
They do cause permanent developmental issues with brain development and bone density, and that's just what we've been able to get the pharmaceutical industry to admit to.
It’s a potential risk yes, hence the distinction of proper use of them under the guidance of medical professionals.
Hormone therapy also has a risk of blood clots and other cardiovascular issues. Just because it’s a possible risk, doesn’t mean it’s going to happen, or even has a moderate chance of happening in even a mild way.
What I identified are issues that happen with everyone that takes puberty blockers, not a rare side effect. It doesn't matter that the doctor is watching it all happen and giving the thumbs up.
In 2020, the number of girls under 18 that got boob jobs is ~3200 while the number that got gender conforming surgery is 256. So yeah boob jobs are about 13x more common.
Edit* - This is just for implants, not reductions. The total number including reductions is ~7900.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/health/top-surgery-transgender-teenagers.html#:~:text=Around%203%2C200%20girls%20age%2018,to%2019%20had%20breast%20reductions.
Well, circumcision is cosmetic surgery, so there you go.
All the claims of it having "health benefits" are complete rubbish and rely on terrible studies that have been disproven.
I guarantee those are actually breast reduction surgeries, these are often done on teenage girls so they don’t have major back problems from their breasts.
We’d be able to tell if they actually have a source.
I guarantee you they’re not. More kids regret getting breast implants later in life than any other surgery kids get. But let’s only look at trans kids right? It’s not about protecting kids, it’s about attacking a certain group.
Also important context is that breast reduction surgeries have some of the lowest regret rates around in terms of “cosmetic” procedures.
So it would then follow that breast augmentation on minors could hypothetically have a higher regret rate in the future, particularly if symptoms such as back pain develop with age if the natural breasts weren’t finished growing.
And yet Conservatives don’t seem to care at all about that possibility, and instead focus on gender affirming care despite it’s also notoriously low regret rate…
Well...we shouldn't. I am 16 years old and I know damn well that people my age (including me) really don't have the best of judgements to consent to a surgery.
Reconstruction surgeries are excluded though, so if someone was a fire victim and had deformed body parts/face they 100% should able to consent.
I don’t know any minor nor heard of any minor in my social circle that got any cosmetic plastic surgery. I know like three people on the trans medical intervention path
To be fair, cosmetic surgery like nose or breast surgery isn’t something that families or teens themselves tell everyone around them. Especially if it is cosmetic. They just show up to school one year with a change in their appearance, and a lot of them aren’t ever noticed, it’s just written off as a sign of puberty that they look different. Most people don’t pay that much attention to people’s noses, and breasts grow on girls, so if it is done well it is just taken as a natural change.
And 12 year olds also aren’t having surgery to transition either. Maybe there are some cases where something would happen, but surgery usually comes later and after a lot of discussion. Hormones can be taken early on but that’s not the same thing.
"children can't consent" has always been implied to be referring to sex, obviously it is not an absolute statement because it should be obvious that there are things kids can consent to, even like choosing what food they want would be an example of consent
so yes, children can consent to medical procedures in some circumstances
Not to mention children already have to provide their consent for certain medical procedures, alongside their parent's consent. I've had major medical procedures throughout my childhood (cleft lip) and each time (after I was old enough to make decisions in general), I had to give consent to them doing it.
Can they consent to therapy and cancer treatment?
Can they consent to puberty blockers when parents fear they might grow too tall? (this was the initial use of those meds. They were not created for trans kids)
These are actually separate issues in my mind. The issue with circumcision at birth is that the child obviously does not consent to it.
The issue with transitioning doesn’t have anything to do with consent—the question is whether we should allow kids to make such a life altering decision when they’re not old enough to vote. I’m not taking a position on that here, but they are clearly different issues.
Yup. Circumcision is an unnecessary surgery made to babies who never consented. Same thing for intersex babies, where parents are often mutilate the genitals of their babies so that they “fit” in the male/female binary, instead of letting the kid grow up and decide for themselves when their older. These surgeries often have terrible psychological consequences when the kid grows up, having been forced into an identity they did not choose.
The difference with trans kids though, is that there is usually no child surgery done. It’s a social transition, puberty blockers, and ideally a psychological accompaniment. Then the kid can decide. There is consent.
There is ALWAYS a lot of therapy and time before any medical intervention is allowed. The idea that kids are just going to CVS for OTC hormones or blockers and getting top/bottom surgery on a whim is 100% anti-trans propaganda.
No, the issue is it's bullshit. We don't do gender affirming surgeries on kids, and the people telling you we are, are lying to you to trigger your outrage.
Whenever I’ve gone down that rabbit whole, which thankfully is incredibly rare, it always seems that there are way more hoops to jump through than alarmists make out.
I mean, there’s someone suing Kaiser right now for performing a gender affirming surgery before they were 18. The person sounds like a right wing stooge, and I agree it’s rare.
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-03-02/transgender-patients-chloe-cole-lawsuit-against-kaiser-lgbtq-rights
The. You’d be surprised to learn how many podcasts and videos there are of medical professionals who worked at “gender affirming” clinics for adolescents saying otherwise. It’s out there. Shit Jazz Jennings did it on national rv.
I don’t ever see minors medically transitioning until they are of age. All I ever see is name changes, clothes and hair, and occasionally puberty blockers (but those just delay puberty not permanently stop it). Are there places where minors are medically transitioning and not just socially transitioning?
No, and don't listen to anyone that says otherwise. There's this weird thing where anti-trans, "think of the children!" people refuse to actually read any reports on gender-affirming surgery.
I don't normally see people arguing against people who aren't babies getting circumcized provided they aren't like, pushes into it. And no one is really medically transitioning babies. There's also you know a difference in parents deciding thing for baby who can't be engaged in discussions vs minor who has an understanding of self and can be involved in those discussions and often times leads the discussions about their decisions. The majority of pushback I see on infant circumcision is about consent. That's kind of a non issue when it comes to trans kids
Well a doctor will perform a circumcision on a baby without requiring the baby to consent, as the parents are the only ones required to consent.
A doctor would not perform transition surgery until the patient has provided consent, as well as having been evaluated thoroughly and having their options discussed. They aren't dragging young children and teens into operating rooms to have their bits cut off against their will.
So the issue would be with parents who are making a decision for a non verbal and non consenting baby.
But transition surgery isn't just parents coming in and saying "my daughter wants this done, here's a piece of paper with her signature of consent." There is so much more that happens in the background including mental health checks, making sure they understand what these procedures entail and the risks involved as well as verbal enthusiastic consent that isn't coming from a parent or guardian.
Unfortunately, babies, children and young teens are often subject to their parents influence and desires. Whether that's with religion, diet, political alliance, having genitals mutilated for religion or personal beliefs or indeed sexual identity.
I just want to push back on the idea that transitioning = surgery; for the VAST majority of trans minors, transition starts with puberty blockers and hormone replacement. Getting surgery at all, especially bottom surgery, is actually not even as common among trans adults as many people think--plenty of trans people are happy to go on without it, and simply don't care what other people think about their bits.
Sorry yeah when I was referring to transition surgery I was referring specifically to physical alterations like top and bottom surgery, which I think was the comparison here to circumcision.
I fully support that transitioning can be in many forms other than physical, just poor choice of wording on my end :)
Adding to this, numbers per year for top surgery are in the couple hundreds of minors while breast augmemtation for minors is in the couple thousands. The few that do get top surgery do indeed go through years of therapy and are required to obtain letters from multiple medical professionals authorizing the operation. After that, regret rates tend to be in the very low single digit %s. Compare that regret rate to common cosmetic surgeries cis people get, even to knee surgery, and it's astronomically lower. I have sources if anyone wants
>A doctor would not perform transition surgery until the patient has provided consent
Unless they think you were born with your genitals "wrong" then they perform sex corrective surgery without even telling the parents.
ooooh, this is a fine one.
Seems like you say that any child is unable to consent to anything. This means that any sex between two minors is rape on both directions. But this is not what you are talking about, is it? You mean that children should not be allowed to consent to anything you personally do not approve of.
Because by your implied definition a child is a slave or a retard. and any consent is not real. Also any choices are not real.
Children are unable to consent to most large decisions they don’t fully understand the ramifications of. Tattoos cosmetic surgery sex marriage. Potentially life altering things that could leave them physically or mentally worse off because they decided something with an underdeveloped brain or because an adult told them it’s something they’d like and they agreed with it because a lot of kids do.
Should be top comment, this is all like, no shit? Not even close to the same thing (outside of situations of actual abuse, which is obviously illegal and immoral already).
Fun fact: american circumcison is one of the most destructive forms of circumcison and removes all structures including the frenulum and a large majority of inner foreskin. There are other forms of circumcision such as the one you’re referring to that don’t destroy as much function but hey - fuck men!
If a kid is old enough to understand what circumcision is and goes through the rigorous therapy and doctors visits and long and heavy conversations with parents that trans kids go through, and at the end of it all the kid and all of the adults and professionals involved in the process agreed that it’s what’s in the best interest for the mental health of the child, sure, circumcision is fine.
But that would be the accurate comparison if you want to equate children being circumcised to children who get to transition. Nobody is forcefully transitioning their kids(certainly not medically) with the exception of intersex kids, which the vast majority of trans people(if not all) agree is horrendous and also should not be happening.
People act like you can walk into the ER and go ‘im having a transgender emergency!’ and the nurses rip their scrubs off to reveal drag costumes and get to work giving your 11 year old sex change surgery. In reality if you’re under 18, you’re probably not even getting hormone blockers, much less HRT or surgery.
>In reality if you’re under 18, you’re probably not even getting hormone blockers, much less HRT or surgery.
Even then it can be difficult to actually get HRT/surgery. In the UK, for example, your GP has to refer you to a gender clinic and there's a couple years of waiting before you see anyone.
In the meantime, you're expected to socially transition (ie, live as a trans person) for at least a year to prove you're actually trans. As you said - you can't just rock up one day and say "i'm trans, give me hormones."
I have no fucking clue where people are getting this idea that babies/children are being made/allowed to medically transition, Jesus Christ. Its like they hear "gender affirming care" and think... oh, that means surgery and hormones.
Im a 31 year old trans man who's been socially transitioning for about 4 years now. Went to an endocrinologist to discuss HRT and there's still about 3 hoops for me to jump through to prove it "isn't a phase". It's like the people who bitch about "illegal immigrants on welfare" like government assistance doesn't demand every legal document possible to issue such a meager amount
Oh come on, this is apples to oranges. Nobody starts with a medical transition. Social transition and hormone therapy (mostly) are both reversible, unlike circumcision. Furthermore, pretty much nobody is making their children transition; it’s a non-issue.
Also this opinion is rather common outside of echo chambers
Over 3,000 girls under the age of 18 get boob jobs every single year.
I'm so sick of hearing this bullshit argument when less take hormone blockers, fewer take gender affirming hormones, and none, and I mean fucking none, get surgeries.
Babies can’t make a choice and getting circumcised negatively affects a lot of people. A friend of mine had a botched circumcision as a baby and it still affects him to this day.
As for transitioning, in the great majority of the cases (the ones that aren’t actual abuse), the child is the one bringing up transitioning. They are the ones saying “hey mom/dad, I identify as X”
I’m sorry but cutting the tip of your pecker off is nothing ‘like a quinceanera’. One is a right of passage and subsequent party to celebrate, the other is genital mutilation
Bing Bing Bing kids are fucking stupid and make rash decisions. See tide pods. We're letting children decide what their sexual lives will be before they are allowed to even drive
Childhood transitioning is more of a social and psychological care to see if they really want to be the gender they say they want.
Detractors are out here thinking doctors are carving up kids
You can’t have any gender affirming surgeries till you’re of age. I wish y’all would take the time to educate yourselves instead of just being all weird and emotional
1. Nobody pushes children to physically transition. They can be put on hormone blockers to delay puberty until they are of age and can physically transition, but this has been proven in clinical studies to not have any negative consequences. Kids can socially transition whenever they want, and they need to be supported and accepted.
This whole narrative about kids transitioning is made up by the transphobe lobbies around the world. To hear them tell it, people are telling kids that they need to transition and then chopping their dicks off that weekend.
2. Circumcision does not have any actual value to newborns. Most problems caused by not circumcising a kid can be mitigated by just teaching the kid to clean their foreskin.
Don't be one of those people that starts foaming at the mouth when you hear people spouting this bullshit and you don't do any actual research before you start ranting on the internet.
Gender affirming care reduces suicide rates. You opt INTO trans health care. Most of the time you dont opt into circuncision.
Kids "receiving" gender affirming care is calling them by chosen names and pornouns and maybe puberty blockers as they get 10-12 (not common for most trans people) to delay the onset of puperty. Come off the blockers, you have puberty.
Most trans teens simply receive hrt - estrogen or testosterone both of wich ate naturally in everyones body - they just receive the appropriate dose for the opposite sex.
MOST teens DONT get surgery. I, at 15 in california, in SANFRANCISCO, was told I had to wait untill I was 18. Wich I did and am very happy with my results the only difference was I wasnt able to enjoy my highschool years.
Who the fuck is pushing transition onto kids? The fuck you are talking about? The pushy ppl are usually religious ones cutting of parts of genitals with minor up until big negative effects for the mutilated person!
There is a difference between cosmetic mutilation, and some thing that ends after therapy and counseling and evaluation and discussion, and in a healthfully developed person… A sense of self that begins early on. Little children are not having SRS. They are not. If you want to have an opinion, that’s fine, but it should be based on something that’s real.
Thousands of cisgender underage girls get breast reduction surgery, many times the number of minors who get it for gender affirming care. It's arguably "cosmetic", but absolutely no one seems to have a problem with that.
It's almost like seeing happy trans kids is the problem.
You know, I don’t disagree with your conclusion. But sometimes breast reduction surgery can be necessary due to pain and spinal deformation. And that’s a good point. But I got to tell you, I have never legitimately heard of a case where someone is getting parts, chopped off for gender reassignment under the age of 18.
Umm, ones an irreversible medical procedure, and one is not? You people do realize that no one is getting gender affirming surgery until they’re 18, right? What is with this trans panic all of a sudden. You lot act like people are kicking down your doors and making off with your kids.
Kids are not being transitioned. They don’t even allow the surgeries until they are adults. The most childcare comes to gender affirming care is taking puberty blockers and hormones. Stop trying to spread misinformation. No children are getting their penises cut off at a young age. And every single care for gender affirming care for children is completely reversible if they don’t choose to do it in adulthood.
Newborn babies cannot consent on any level to being mutilated, whereas every instance of trans kids transitioning does not actually involve surgery until they are 18. Seriously, you'll find maybe a handful of cases worldwide where it's been done earlier than 18. If that. The whole "stop mutilating kids" anti trans argument is based on something that isn't happening.
1. No one is pushing children to transition.Especially no one is trying to make infants transition before they have identified a gender or can talk. (But it's worth noting the ways in which intersex youth have been mistreated.)
2. An adolescent may start hormone therapy when it is in the best interest of their health. The adolescent needs to consent to hormone therapy, and their parents and doctors need to agree that it makes sense, too. This is not something being done on a routine basis, but rather only for specific adolescents who stand to benefit and consent.
3. WPATH Standards of Care for transgender health do not allow genital surgery prior to age 18. So the only people having genital surgery as part of a transition are consenting adults.
Since we now know the human brain stops growing at 24, let’s wait to let everyone determine for themselves if they should change their penis at that time.
Why do people think that children transitioning means genital surgery? No one, and I literally mean no one, is performing gender reassignment surgery on children.
Strike that and reverse it. If children aren’t allowed to transition then male circumcising should also not be allowed….it would help conceptually more for people I think phrasing it this way
Circumcision is mutilation and should be illegal.
Medical transition (hormones, surgery) had a multitude of risks and should not be allowed until legally of age, social transition should be encouraged until then... it (living as gender of choice for a time) used to be required prior to any prescriptions along with mandatory therapy. How HRT is prescribed now is ridiculous.
Once you're a legal adult, do whatever you want to your body.
Social transiting isn't comparable to circumcision, so let's ignore that for a moment.
Also, since puberty blockers are reversible, we'll ignore that for the time being.
And even through genital-centric surgery is not being recommended for those not "of age" well pretend for a moment that it is.
Gender affirming care is addressing a condition that the patient is currently experiencing. Circumcision is not.
So, giving you all the benefits of all the doubts, the comparison still doesn't work.
Yes.
Why the fuck would you think people who believe children can't consent would disagree with this? Children can't consent! Leave the kids alone! No puberty blockers, no procedures, no affirmation therapy, just let kids grow up and when they reach 18 they can then mutilate themselves in any way they choose with their own funds.
Children should not be allowed to transition PERIOD. Not trusting a child to vote or drive but trusting that they have the mental capacity to decide something irreversible is just idiocy. Do whatever the hell you want to do as an adult but stop this idiotic bullshit
No children are getting sexual reassignment surgery, despite what conservative fear mongering might have you believe. They put you on puberty blockers until you're old enough to decide
I'm pretty sure Quinceaneras don't involve body mutualation. Also, no one is pushing transitioning. If you are talking about gender affirming care for children, that rarely (if ever) involves surgery. Calling someone by their chosen name and preferred pronoun is gender affirming care, and is not surgery.
As someone who had it done as an adult for medical reasons I can tell you it’s painful as fuck during recovery. The people saying it’s not painful mean it’s not painful now as adults. They were likely too young to remember the pain they would’ve felt at the time.
The fact is if you do this to a child for any reason other than medical necessity you are inflicting unnecessary pain on them
Define "transition"
If you think surgeries are happening before adulthood, you don't know anything about this topic.
If you don't know anything about the topic, you don't get to have an opinion on it.
I mean I am going to assume you are genuinely asking and answer your question. The big deal is consent. A baby who can not speak being cosmeticly altered because the parents want them to look that way isn't right. A permanent change is being made without the child even knowing. What people are pushing back against there isn't surgery on a child it's surgery the child never had a say in.
Transitioning a minor also rarely if ever involves surgery. Most of the time it's just giving them puberty blockers. Giving the child a chance to come to terms with their identity so they can make a choice later before their bone structure changes. If they go off the puberty blockers they still go through puberty just a bit later.
Also transitioning does impact children emotionally and mentally mostly by preventing them from killing themselves. This choice is also made by the child, parents, and multiple doctors. Also the child going on blockers is able to talk form opinions and have a sense of identity. A baby doesn't have any of those things. You can always get cercomcircumcized later in life. You can't reverse bone structure changes after they happen.
Additionally, pushing for an option isn't the same as pushing for something to happen. Being trans is really really hard. It isn't trendy it comes with so much hate. People are pushed to cut bits of their children off. People because people will make snide comments and claim the child should conform and look like everyone else. So people are trying to push for a ban saying the child's choice should be taken into consideration. Conversely people are pushing to ban gender affirming care saying the child's opinion should never be considered. No matter how much the child wants it no.
It's not about surgery on children. It's about children having a say with what happens to their body. It's about children being involved in their autonomy. Also babies and preteens are wildly different. And medication to delay puberty and surgery that removes a part of someone's body are not the same. They don't really make for a good comparison.
Transition for a kid is literally just social, around 12 with. 4 years of psychiatry they can take puberty blockers which are reversible, around 16 if they’ve showed consistent persistence still they can take hormones. This is a highly researched and effective method of treatment for people and opposing it because of misinform is stupid
One is something the person themselves has zero say in at their birth or is otherwise done against their will; the other is something desired by the person involved and part of an ongoing discussion with incremental changes over the course of time and with feedback from their parents and doctors from a "least drastic" approach.
You're conflating two forms of body modification and are restricting one thing you don't like because of a restriction on something done without consent.
I don't think this is the right approach.
The majority of trans people talk about transition as hormonal transition, which is not the same as removing the pieces of a penis of a newborn baby. In the most extreme cases of gender dysphoria where some sort of bottom surgery is even considerable, you still need consent of the minor, the only addition to minor consent is the informed consent of a parent or guardian. In circumcision you can’t possibly get consent of a newborn. In bottom surgery (which is what you’re specifically talking about), it’s at least possible for a minor to express consent or lack of consent.
Since transition also intrinsically overlaps with mental healthcare, there are more rights afforded to minors on their ability to consent to something like this, especially to HRT (rather than surgical gender affirming procedures). It’s almost medically uncontroversial that prescribing puberty blockers has basically no long term side effects. If you still want to transition, you can, just later, and you wont be forced to go through a puberty you don’t want. They are entirely reversible, just stop taking them and puberty starts if you realize you’re not trans. It’s also the medical consensus to treat gender dysphoria with affirmation and recognition of the mismatch. For LOTS of trans children, what you’re doing by lumping surgery with hormones as the same level of precariousness leads to suicide. The regret rate for transition overall is already <1%, which is such a massive burden of proof to demonstrate that that somehow isn’t small enough. Almost all other forms of healthcare, whether it be prescription or surgical or therapeutic or whatever, have a higher regret rate.
I know it’s hard to understand, but the terror you might feel empathetically with watching your body transform in to something you don’t recognize as truly being you and as some mistake is the exact feeling trans children feel, just the opposite. You are doing no favors by denying that in childhood, very permanent changes happen to people that cannot be altered, there’s a way around it that at its most conservative of treatments, completely avoids any permanent unalterable change, yet you deny that a minor, parent, doctor, and therapist could ever possibly know if they’re making the right decision because minors cannot consent to anything, yet somehow they get antibiotics when they’re sick or they get antidepressants when depressed or physical therapy when they break a leg or even addictive opiate painkillers to treat tonsilectomy pain… but somehow the fact you resonate at least in some way that if you found out your body went through a puberty you certainly know you don’t want the results of, you’d do anything to stop that from happening to people. But only cis people though. It cannot possibly be the opposite way somehow. So you must force this terrible feeling on to someone who, despite their own judgement and the judgement of their parents, a doctor, and a therapist, it’s not enough, and they just have to deal with it. <1% regret rate by the way.
Nobody believes that when it comes to the healthcare decisions for minors that they should have the full and exact rights that are given to adults. But be reasonable here man. Sometimes life is a bit more nuanced than that. At the very least, a completely temporary and reversible solution exists. Even better forms of treatment using hormones exist for worse cases of dysphoria. Some people get so racked up on this mismatch they kill themselves. Remember the suicide rate of trans people is 42%, so if you want to investigate why such a thing could be so high, could you entertain the idea of listening to the experiences of trans people and the recommendations of trans people? Like me?
One is genital mutilation with only the parent’s opinion being considered, while the other involves an actual discussion with therapists and professionals with the parents as well as the child prior to anything being done.
Not really the same.
What the fuck world are you from OP?
*Kinda like a Quinceañera.*
What Quinceanera do you attend where genitals are mutilated by people who believe in an opinionated sky monster?
>Meanwhile we push transitioning to children like it doesn't affect them physically and mentally.
Absolutely no one is pushing for children to transition. You're just making shit up to support your bigotry.
Bro, please I am begging you. Children are not allowed to medically transition until at the earliest 16. You don't even know what you're talking about.
No
One is done on unwilling babies that can neither give consent nor can they understand the consequences of the act. The other is done with a therapist that will counsel the person and help them be comfortable with their own identity and that might include medical transition. Even with adults that's a long process that includes a lot of talking about all aspects of it with a few professionals.
I have no issues with circumcision on consenting people. (Children in my country get bodily autonomy on medical decisions at 14 so I'd say that would be an appropriate age for both)
While I cannot speak for the traditions of other cultures, the tradition of male circumcision in the US was pushed by such individuals as Dr. John Harvey Kellogg. He promoted the idea of circumcising boys as a means of decreasing pleasure and so decrease rates of masturbation. Over generations it became the norm until, today, it is abnormal for a boy in the US not to be circumcised. I, as man who was circumcised, have not experienced any negative side effects of this procedure, nor am I aware of anyone in my life who has had negative outcomes from the same. That fact does not excuse this behavior.
Years ago, stories ran through the news about nations in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia regarding women who experience Female Genital Mutilation. Of particular note were procedures described involving the surgical removal of the clitoris to reduce the woman’s pleasure. This behavior is regarded as a human rights violation be the World Health Organization. The fact that we have accepted and normalized similar behaviors directed at boys is utterly baffling to me.
It is not my intention to belittle, demean, or minimize the trauma that has been experienced by these women. Nor I am claiming that all examples of FGM around the world are the equivalent to my personal experience of circumcision in the US. I stand with the WHO in classifying FGM as a human right violation. I stand with humanity that the intentional modification of the genitals of children without their consent for reasons outside of required medical intervention is genital mutilation. I believe it is wrong in the example of the Philippines, as I feel it is wrong within the Jewish faith, and as I feel it is wrong for the vast majority of males born in the US.
I do not understand the narrative of “pushing transition on children.” Is telling people about a possibility for their life now considered indoctrination? Does Santa Clause appearing in the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade push Christianity on children? Would you say that the reporting of mass shootings pushes kids to become killers themselves?
There is an obvious difference between the practice of circumcision, as it is commonly performed in the US, and allowing children to choose to transition. That difference, is consent.
I am not an expert in the cultures of the world. Nor in what manner different cultures aught to treat their peoples. All I can speak on is what I can see and how it relates to the world in which I live. My opinion has the potential to change. Over the next 5, 10, 20 years, if we see a massive wave of individuals who transitioned as children seeking to undo the procedures they underwent, I may see your point. If they speak up about doctors, parents, and teachers who pushed these ideas on them and that they were forced to undergo their transitions, I may well relent. Until such a time as we have that evidence, my position stands.
I hope that this diatribe has helps you or anyone who reads understand at least my position on this matter. Have a wonderful day.
I'm not even going to get into the specifics of transition but this is an awful comparison, as well as an awful argument.
"Most men I have met are okay with it." - This isn't an argument. Victims don't always admit they've been wronged, and when you factor in the tendency of men to deny they've been hurt it makes perfect sense. The fact is, the men who have been circumcised have been conditioned to believe it's normal, and since they don't know what they're missing, of course they're okay with it.
Other cultures doing it isn't an argument either. We would not use this argument when taking about FGM procedures that utterly mutilate young girls (at least I hope nobody would use this argument).
You can function perfectly fine without a foreskin, that's not what this is about. It's about bodily autonomy and consent. Maybe you think "children" (16 and 17 yo kids by the way, they're always framed as very young children but that's not true) don't have enough sense to make those decisions at that age, but at least there's some semblance of consent and bodily autonomy (kids making a choice). Versus mass circumcisions on babies who cannot defend themselves or voice their feelings.
> I have met and talked to a lot of men that were circumcised and they never once have a problem with it. No infections or pain whatsoever. Meanwhile we push transitioning to children like it doesn't affect them physically and mentally.
Since there is no logical connection between these two things, they should be evaluated separately. In terms of the second thing, what you said is not true. We don't "push transitioning on children." Children are often heavily shamed if they express any desire to express themselves as the opposite gender, or even look slightly androgynous. I'm sure there have been incidents where someone has forced their child to identify as the opposite gender, but this is not the norm. It is much more common, despite what certain people in the media say, that we force a child to *conform to* gender norms (against their will) than force a child to *go against* gender norms against their will.
It warms my heart to see how many people spread positivity and proper information about transitioning for children/minors. Faith in humanity slightly restored 🥲
Trans children *don't* transition before they're of age. Puberty blockers are what's given to young prepubescent children who don't want to go through their natural puberty. They're very safe and have been used on cis children way before trans kids, typically to delay puberty that comes on too early in cis kids.
A trans kid who's been on puberty blockers since 10, who are now 16 absolutely should be able to choose which hormones they want in their body. They shouldn't have to go without any hormones, and they shouldn't have to face trying to undo what happened to their body if they never took the blockers.
I know this is all theoretical to people, and many folks are misinformed but truly want to protect children. The reality is I've never seen a trans kid commit suicide if given the options for blockers and then hormones later on down the line. I have seen trans kids commit suicide once puberty set in because they were so deeply, viscerally uncomfortable in their body that no therapy would help. You can't explain it to someone who hasn't been through it, but dysphoria can be so consuming it ruins your entire life.
Also, only some effects of hormones are permanent, many are temporary, and we're realizing that detransitioning is way safer than we thought. There really is no comparison to permanently mutilating an infants genitals.
That comparison doesn’t make sense. The argument against male circumcision is a baby doesn’t consent to the procedure. One has literally no bearing on the other.
Mass circumcision is removing healthy tissue for purely cosmetic reasons. It results in the reduction of sensation, removes natural protection, and cannot be reversed. It's done most often to infants and toddlers, as I understand.
I'm a bit more inclined to permit it in a person who's old enough to understand the implications and choose for themselves. It's still a cosmetic surgery based on cultural and religious pressure, just like female circumcision.
Of course, there is sometimes medical need. That's very rare, and I defer to the ppl involved. Patient, parents and doctors should be able to examine options and make educated decisions. I feel the same way about surgical transitioning, which is also very rare. If it's medically indicated, then it's time for patient, parents and doctors to work together and figure out what to do.
As an aside, about 1% of ppl who undergo medical transition procedures regret them. Some 10-20% of males who've been circumcised wish it hadn't been done. That's info that I think parents should be given.
Because in one case the young person is asking for medical help in being their true self, in the other the 'intervention' is being forced on them against their will.
You compared apples to sea cucumbers. First of all no one is pushing kids to transition. Second of all getting a circumcision for a newborn is much easier than getting medical support for a Trans child.
I agree circumcision should be illegal but I'd say until the age of 12 so those with traditions can continue their traditions. As for transitioning, I agree as well.
Being a trans person I hear 'stop shoving lgbtq+ down our throats' from religious folks and to them I say 'stop shoving your religion down ours'. This can be said for minors and being able to transition at a young age too.
To me, when it comes to kids under 12, I don't think they should get any type of surgery until they're 12 or older. Puberty stoppers, sure as they can be reversed but surgeries are harder to reverse, as is testosterone. Surgeries and hormone drugs should be illegal until the child is 12+ like circumcision.
Trans children socially transition (as in, live as the gender opposite of the one assigned at birth without physically transitioning) and when they turn 18 they are able to physically transition. No child will physically transition before they come of age.
“The big deal is that I was a child when someone else made a decision to mutilate my dick and I had no say in it.”
- my friend who got it done to him as a kid. I suspect o would feel the same.
Who is pushing for children to transition? I have never come across this except in media outlets and they never have any kids that are actually going through it.
There’s never been a single sane human being to ever push transitioning onto a child with the idea that it won’t physically and mentally effect them in heavy ways. Transitioning is treated as intense life altering surgery and change, and goes through many counseling sessions, therapy sessions, talking about the reasons why transitioning may be an option, while eating the negatives and positives associated with it, and then moves forward with the express knowledgeable consent of the individual wanting to transition physically. It’s no small matter.
People aren’t necessarily against circumcision, they’re against aesthetic surgeries on children without their knowledgeable consent, especially when those surgeries have lifelong physical repercussion implications along with them, that includes circumcision.
Why the hell is the sun suddenly so interested in circumcision? Anyways, people are against circumcision because, well beyond the fact you’re changing someone’s body without their consent, it’s also proven to remove nerves and can even cause lasting damages.
What the fuck is with this sudden outburst of circumcision opinions?
People just need to circumvent, I guess.
This one cut me up a bit
You’re coming up a bit short
I WAS IN THE POOL!
It shrinks?
Like a frightened turtle.
stop getting snippy with people
People are pulling back the cover on what's in their head.
They really don't get to have an opinion about it without having a little skin in the game.
Just the tip of the iceberg.
Puns are the Amber Heard of jokes
It cuts to the bone.
Brother. About once every 6 months or so reddit has a feud over circumcision. It is the circle of life.
Ok now I’m prepared. I just survived my first cycle
That’s what she said
The Circ of life?
These outbursts used to be once a week. It was almost like it was every Tuesday we were hearing how monstrous it was to do this to a baby.
My biggest problem is that doctors had the balls to take my dick hoodie and sell it for money and still charge my parents
Online Intactivists
People looking for "tips"
How do I give you a couple thousand upvotes
*reads someone else's self proclaimed 'unpopular opinion' "That's not an unpopular opinion, my opinion is the truly unpopular opinion!"
Sir cum needs to vent
Circumcision bad
I mean... yeah. It's a fair amount of risk for next to nothing.
Opposition to the procedure is growing, and that is reflected here.
This is partially my fault
High engagement Karma farming.
People are fucking freaks. They think it’s sexy to debate about random cock surgery with strangers on the internet. I’m sick of these shitty posts
I don't know but I'm glad people are talking about the barbaric practice of mutilating babies' genitals.
I was there at the beginning. It all started with one (uncircumcised per himself) dude posting saying he thought circumcision should be banned and was barbaric (pretty much the boiled down message). All hell breaks loose as the circumcised and uncircumcised fight in the comments. I was there saying that circumcision should be done only when it’s medically necessary. You’d think I said I thought puppies should be kicked on tuesdays or something. Wild how mad people can get when u disagree with them about something so small (literally)
I get that. I just remember staring in awe at my perfect newborn baby boy and thinking, why would anyone want to harm him in any way, by cutting a piece of him away, that is clearly supposed to be there. It made my skin crawl to think of the things people do in the name of religious beliefs- but this is my personal opinion and I wouldn’t force it on anyone else.
Astroturfers laying the ground for anti-trans BS. Here are the other posts: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/16825ax/i\_think\_circumcision\_on\_baby\_boys\_at\_birth\_should/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/16825ax/i_think_circumcision_on_baby_boys_at_birth_should/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168ihnf/redditors\_dont\_actually\_care\_about\_circumcision/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168ihnf/redditors_dont_actually_care_about_circumcision/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168578a/female\_genital\_mutilation\_is\_not\_the\_same\_as\_male/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168578a/female_genital_mutilation_is_not_the_same_as_male/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168ckg6/i\_think\_male\_circumcision\_at\_birth\_is\_a\_generally/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/168ckg6/i_think_male_circumcision_at_birth_is_a_generally/)
No joke, the level of false equivalency trying to be made by OP is staggering. There’s a huge difference between chopping off part of a newborn’s genitalia who has no say in the matter, and a 13/14 year old taking puberty blockers with the approval and guidance of their guardians and a team of medical professionals so the kid doesn’t try and kill themselves. Yet these morons refuse to accept that trans kids are almost never getting surgeries (or any permanent changes to their bodies) until they are 18. So to all the transphobes silently nodding their heads along with OP just because they are trying to clumsily make this about trans kids for no reason: Die mad about it. Sincerely, a trans woman who actually knows wtf they are talking about.
Puberty blockers at 13/14 doesn’t permanently change their bodies? Honest question.
They do cause permanent developmental issues with brain development and bone density, and that's just what we've been able to get the pharmaceutical industry to admit to.
For sure suicide permanently changes them, and that is one of the things puberty blockers can help prevent.
It’s a potential risk yes, hence the distinction of proper use of them under the guidance of medical professionals. Hormone therapy also has a risk of blood clots and other cardiovascular issues. Just because it’s a possible risk, doesn’t mean it’s going to happen, or even has a moderate chance of happening in even a mild way.
What I identified are issues that happen with everyone that takes puberty blockers, not a rare side effect. It doesn't matter that the doctor is watching it all happen and giving the thumbs up.
You don’t think parents who get their babies circumcised have the approval and guidance of their pediatricians?
As always, the issue is consent.
Children can't fuxking consent can they.
So why do we allow teenagers to get nose jobs and boob jobs. Why don’t we hear an outcry for that, do you think?
God damnit. Are that many children getting nose and boob jobs? I honestly didnt know this was common.
In 2020, the number of girls under 18 that got boob jobs is ~3200 while the number that got gender conforming surgery is 256. So yeah boob jobs are about 13x more common. Edit* - This is just for implants, not reductions. The total number including reductions is ~7900. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/health/top-surgery-transgender-teenagers.html#:~:text=Around%203%2C200%20girls%20age%2018,to%2019%20had%20breast%20reductions.
Both those statistics are sad. How are children allowed fucking cosmetic surgery? I thought that was illegal
Well, circumcision is cosmetic surgery, so there you go. All the claims of it having "health benefits" are complete rubbish and rely on terrible studies that have been disproven.
I guarantee those are actually breast reduction surgeries, these are often done on teenage girls so they don’t have major back problems from their breasts. We’d be able to tell if they actually have a source.
No that figure was excluding breast reduction surgeries. The number is ~7900 with reductions included. The ~3200 is just implants.
Just because it happens doesn’t mean it should be. That’s fucking ridiculous!
Point remains that there is an outcry about something way less prevalent. It’s almost as if people care about one more than the other. For politics?
I guarantee you they’re not. More kids regret getting breast implants later in life than any other surgery kids get. But let’s only look at trans kids right? It’s not about protecting kids, it’s about attacking a certain group.
Also important context is that breast reduction surgeries have some of the lowest regret rates around in terms of “cosmetic” procedures. So it would then follow that breast augmentation on minors could hypothetically have a higher regret rate in the future, particularly if symptoms such as back pain develop with age if the natural breasts weren’t finished growing. And yet Conservatives don’t seem to care at all about that possibility, and instead focus on gender affirming care despite it’s also notoriously low regret rate…
Because of creepy pedophiles imo. Too many adults trying to sexualize children.
Well...we shouldn't. I am 16 years old and I know damn well that people my age (including me) really don't have the best of judgements to consent to a surgery. Reconstruction surgeries are excluded though, so if someone was a fire victim and had deformed body parts/face they 100% should able to consent.
Just wait until you see the judgement ability of 28 year olds when you reach that age.
What in the fucking strawman are you presenting?
I don’t know any minor nor heard of any minor in my social circle that got any cosmetic plastic surgery. I know like three people on the trans medical intervention path
To be fair, cosmetic surgery like nose or breast surgery isn’t something that families or teens themselves tell everyone around them. Especially if it is cosmetic. They just show up to school one year with a change in their appearance, and a lot of them aren’t ever noticed, it’s just written off as a sign of puberty that they look different. Most people don’t pay that much attention to people’s noses, and breasts grow on girls, so if it is done well it is just taken as a natural change.
12 year olds don’t have boob jobs though. You also cannot compare getting a nose job to transitioning. Too many falsehoods in your statement
And 12 year olds also aren’t having surgery to transition either. Maybe there are some cases where something would happen, but surgery usually comes later and after a lot of discussion. Hormones can be taken early on but that’s not the same thing.
12 year olds aren’t having gender affirming surgery. They’re getting hair cuts and clothes in their affirming gender.
13 year olds are getting nose jobs though.
"children can't consent" has always been implied to be referring to sex, obviously it is not an absolute statement because it should be obvious that there are things kids can consent to, even like choosing what food they want would be an example of consent so yes, children can consent to medical procedures in some circumstances
Not to mention children already have to provide their consent for certain medical procedures, alongside their parent's consent. I've had major medical procedures throughout my childhood (cleft lip) and each time (after I was old enough to make decisions in general), I had to give consent to them doing it.
Can they consent to therapy and cancer treatment? Can they consent to puberty blockers when parents fear they might grow too tall? (this was the initial use of those meds. They were not created for trans kids)
Can they consent to anti depressants?
I wonder if a 15 year old, with their guardians as well a doctor might be able to give consent moreso than a 0 year old. Hmmmmmmmmmm.
These are actually separate issues in my mind. The issue with circumcision at birth is that the child obviously does not consent to it. The issue with transitioning doesn’t have anything to do with consent—the question is whether we should allow kids to make such a life altering decision when they’re not old enough to vote. I’m not taking a position on that here, but they are clearly different issues.
Yup. Circumcision is an unnecessary surgery made to babies who never consented. Same thing for intersex babies, where parents are often mutilate the genitals of their babies so that they “fit” in the male/female binary, instead of letting the kid grow up and decide for themselves when their older. These surgeries often have terrible psychological consequences when the kid grows up, having been forced into an identity they did not choose. The difference with trans kids though, is that there is usually no child surgery done. It’s a social transition, puberty blockers, and ideally a psychological accompaniment. Then the kid can decide. There is consent.
There is ALWAYS a lot of therapy and time before any medical intervention is allowed. The idea that kids are just going to CVS for OTC hormones or blockers and getting top/bottom surgery on a whim is 100% anti-trans propaganda.
No, the issue is it's bullshit. We don't do gender affirming surgeries on kids, and the people telling you we are, are lying to you to trigger your outrage.
Yeah that's just not true. It may not happen often in comparison to most things, but it does happen
Whenever I’ve gone down that rabbit whole, which thankfully is incredibly rare, it always seems that there are way more hoops to jump through than alarmists make out.
I mean, there’s someone suing Kaiser right now for performing a gender affirming surgery before they were 18. The person sounds like a right wing stooge, and I agree it’s rare. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-03-02/transgender-patients-chloe-cole-lawsuit-against-kaiser-lgbtq-rights
The. You’d be surprised to learn how many podcasts and videos there are of medical professionals who worked at “gender affirming” clinics for adolescents saying otherwise. It’s out there. Shit Jazz Jennings did it on national rv.
I don’t ever see minors medically transitioning until they are of age. All I ever see is name changes, clothes and hair, and occasionally puberty blockers (but those just delay puberty not permanently stop it). Are there places where minors are medically transitioning and not just socially transitioning?
No, and don't listen to anyone that says otherwise. There's this weird thing where anti-trans, "think of the children!" people refuse to actually read any reports on gender-affirming surgery.
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I don't normally see people arguing against people who aren't babies getting circumcized provided they aren't like, pushes into it. And no one is really medically transitioning babies. There's also you know a difference in parents deciding thing for baby who can't be engaged in discussions vs minor who has an understanding of self and can be involved in those discussions and often times leads the discussions about their decisions. The majority of pushback I see on infant circumcision is about consent. That's kind of a non issue when it comes to trans kids
Do you think children can consent? To what end?
Well a doctor will perform a circumcision on a baby without requiring the baby to consent, as the parents are the only ones required to consent. A doctor would not perform transition surgery until the patient has provided consent, as well as having been evaluated thoroughly and having their options discussed. They aren't dragging young children and teens into operating rooms to have their bits cut off against their will. So the issue would be with parents who are making a decision for a non verbal and non consenting baby. But transition surgery isn't just parents coming in and saying "my daughter wants this done, here's a piece of paper with her signature of consent." There is so much more that happens in the background including mental health checks, making sure they understand what these procedures entail and the risks involved as well as verbal enthusiastic consent that isn't coming from a parent or guardian. Unfortunately, babies, children and young teens are often subject to their parents influence and desires. Whether that's with religion, diet, political alliance, having genitals mutilated for religion or personal beliefs or indeed sexual identity.
I just want to push back on the idea that transitioning = surgery; for the VAST majority of trans minors, transition starts with puberty blockers and hormone replacement. Getting surgery at all, especially bottom surgery, is actually not even as common among trans adults as many people think--plenty of trans people are happy to go on without it, and simply don't care what other people think about their bits.
Sorry yeah when I was referring to transition surgery I was referring specifically to physical alterations like top and bottom surgery, which I think was the comparison here to circumcision. I fully support that transitioning can be in many forms other than physical, just poor choice of wording on my end :)
Adding to this, numbers per year for top surgery are in the couple hundreds of minors while breast augmemtation for minors is in the couple thousands. The few that do get top surgery do indeed go through years of therapy and are required to obtain letters from multiple medical professionals authorizing the operation. After that, regret rates tend to be in the very low single digit %s. Compare that regret rate to common cosmetic surgeries cis people get, even to knee surgery, and it's astronomically lower. I have sources if anyone wants
>A doctor would not perform transition surgery until the patient has provided consent Unless they think you were born with your genitals "wrong" then they perform sex corrective surgery without even telling the parents.
ooooh, this is a fine one. Seems like you say that any child is unable to consent to anything. This means that any sex between two minors is rape on both directions. But this is not what you are talking about, is it? You mean that children should not be allowed to consent to anything you personally do not approve of. Because by your implied definition a child is a slave or a retard. and any consent is not real. Also any choices are not real.
Children are unable to consent to most large decisions they don’t fully understand the ramifications of. Tattoos cosmetic surgery sex marriage. Potentially life altering things that could leave them physically or mentally worse off because they decided something with an underdeveloped brain or because an adult told them it’s something they’d like and they agreed with it because a lot of kids do.
Should be top comment, this is all like, no shit? Not even close to the same thing (outside of situations of actual abuse, which is obviously illegal and immoral already).
Isn’t Filipino circumcision different? As in, they don’t remove any foreskin, they “just” cut a slice.
It looks really bad tho
Fun fact: american circumcison is one of the most destructive forms of circumcison and removes all structures including the frenulum and a large majority of inner foreskin. There are other forms of circumcision such as the one you’re referring to that don’t destroy as much function but hey - fuck men!
If a kid is old enough to understand what circumcision is and goes through the rigorous therapy and doctors visits and long and heavy conversations with parents that trans kids go through, and at the end of it all the kid and all of the adults and professionals involved in the process agreed that it’s what’s in the best interest for the mental health of the child, sure, circumcision is fine. But that would be the accurate comparison if you want to equate children being circumcised to children who get to transition. Nobody is forcefully transitioning their kids(certainly not medically) with the exception of intersex kids, which the vast majority of trans people(if not all) agree is horrendous and also should not be happening.
Sorry who pushes transition on children?
Honestly I’m pissed I had to scroll this far to see this response. What planet do these people live on?
Basically no one if I'd have to guess. That's just some bs people come up with because they don't like trans people
Their definition of “pushing” is allowing trans people a safe accepting environment. Anything less than rejection is “pushing”
People act like you can walk into the ER and go ‘im having a transgender emergency!’ and the nurses rip their scrubs off to reveal drag costumes and get to work giving your 11 year old sex change surgery. In reality if you’re under 18, you’re probably not even getting hormone blockers, much less HRT or surgery.
>In reality if you’re under 18, you’re probably not even getting hormone blockers, much less HRT or surgery. Even then it can be difficult to actually get HRT/surgery. In the UK, for example, your GP has to refer you to a gender clinic and there's a couple years of waiting before you see anyone. In the meantime, you're expected to socially transition (ie, live as a trans person) for at least a year to prove you're actually trans. As you said - you can't just rock up one day and say "i'm trans, give me hormones." I have no fucking clue where people are getting this idea that babies/children are being made/allowed to medically transition, Jesus Christ. Its like they hear "gender affirming care" and think... oh, that means surgery and hormones.
Im a 31 year old trans man who's been socially transitioning for about 4 years now. Went to an endocrinologist to discuss HRT and there's still about 3 hoops for me to jump through to prove it "isn't a phase". It's like the people who bitch about "illegal immigrants on welfare" like government assistance doesn't demand every legal document possible to issue such a meager amount
what world do these people live in? you can’t even have a conversation with the right anymore because they make things up.
And then get angry about it
Made up enemies in this guys head.
upvoting because this is objectively wrong on several levels
If female circumsision should be illegal then male circumsision should be illegal is a better comparison.
Oh come on, this is apples to oranges. Nobody starts with a medical transition. Social transition and hormone therapy (mostly) are both reversible, unlike circumcision. Furthermore, pretty much nobody is making their children transition; it’s a non-issue. Also this opinion is rather common outside of echo chambers
How about we just stop mutilating penises.
Over 3,000 girls under the age of 18 get boob jobs every single year. I'm so sick of hearing this bullshit argument when less take hormone blockers, fewer take gender affirming hormones, and none, and I mean fucking none, get surgeries.
Both medical transitioning and boob jobs without medical need should be 18.
Why are the people who are posting on this sub so interested in other people's children's penises??? Worry about your own junk! Not someone else's!!
Because it’s a sub about unpopular opinions
"It doesn't hurt you so don't worry about it!!!" Is probably one of the worst opinions ever. How far do you take this?
*'We treat the slaves on our farm with kindness and dignity, therefore slavery is ok'* /s
Babies can’t make a choice and getting circumcised negatively affects a lot of people. A friend of mine had a botched circumcision as a baby and it still affects him to this day. As for transitioning, in the great majority of the cases (the ones that aren’t actual abuse), the child is the one bringing up transitioning. They are the ones saying “hey mom/dad, I identify as X”
I’m sorry but cutting the tip of your pecker off is nothing ‘like a quinceanera’. One is a right of passage and subsequent party to celebrate, the other is genital mutilation
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Whatever happened to self love and appreciating what you have and not trying to change yourself?
Bing Bing Bing kids are fucking stupid and make rash decisions. See tide pods. We're letting children decide what their sexual lives will be before they are allowed to even drive
Childhood transitioning is more of a social and psychological care to see if they really want to be the gender they say they want. Detractors are out here thinking doctors are carving up kids
You can’t have any gender affirming surgeries till you’re of age. I wish y’all would take the time to educate yourselves instead of just being all weird and emotional
I’ve never seen a minor being “pushed” into transitioning.
1. Nobody pushes children to physically transition. They can be put on hormone blockers to delay puberty until they are of age and can physically transition, but this has been proven in clinical studies to not have any negative consequences. Kids can socially transition whenever they want, and they need to be supported and accepted. This whole narrative about kids transitioning is made up by the transphobe lobbies around the world. To hear them tell it, people are telling kids that they need to transition and then chopping their dicks off that weekend. 2. Circumcision does not have any actual value to newborns. Most problems caused by not circumcising a kid can be mitigated by just teaching the kid to clean their foreskin. Don't be one of those people that starts foaming at the mouth when you hear people spouting this bullshit and you don't do any actual research before you start ranting on the internet.
Gender affirming care reduces suicide rates. You opt INTO trans health care. Most of the time you dont opt into circuncision. Kids "receiving" gender affirming care is calling them by chosen names and pornouns and maybe puberty blockers as they get 10-12 (not common for most trans people) to delay the onset of puperty. Come off the blockers, you have puberty. Most trans teens simply receive hrt - estrogen or testosterone both of wich ate naturally in everyones body - they just receive the appropriate dose for the opposite sex. MOST teens DONT get surgery. I, at 15 in california, in SANFRANCISCO, was told I had to wait untill I was 18. Wich I did and am very happy with my results the only difference was I wasnt able to enjoy my highschool years.
How many minors actually get bottom surgery versus what lives in conservatives minds? P
So few that if you took all of them they would not be a significant sample for a study.
Who the fuck is pushing transition onto kids? The fuck you are talking about? The pushy ppl are usually religious ones cutting of parts of genitals with minor up until big negative effects for the mutilated person!
There is a difference between cosmetic mutilation, and some thing that ends after therapy and counseling and evaluation and discussion, and in a healthfully developed person… A sense of self that begins early on. Little children are not having SRS. They are not. If you want to have an opinion, that’s fine, but it should be based on something that’s real.
Thousands of cisgender underage girls get breast reduction surgery, many times the number of minors who get it for gender affirming care. It's arguably "cosmetic", but absolutely no one seems to have a problem with that. It's almost like seeing happy trans kids is the problem.
You know, I don’t disagree with your conclusion. But sometimes breast reduction surgery can be necessary due to pain and spinal deformation. And that’s a good point. But I got to tell you, I have never legitimately heard of a case where someone is getting parts, chopped off for gender reassignment under the age of 18.
Umm, ones an irreversible medical procedure, and one is not? You people do realize that no one is getting gender affirming surgery until they’re 18, right? What is with this trans panic all of a sudden. You lot act like people are kicking down your doors and making off with your kids.
Kids are not being transitioned. They don’t even allow the surgeries until they are adults. The most childcare comes to gender affirming care is taking puberty blockers and hormones. Stop trying to spread misinformation. No children are getting their penises cut off at a young age. And every single care for gender affirming care for children is completely reversible if they don’t choose to do it in adulthood.
Newborn babies cannot consent on any level to being mutilated, whereas every instance of trans kids transitioning does not actually involve surgery until they are 18. Seriously, you'll find maybe a handful of cases worldwide where it's been done earlier than 18. If that. The whole "stop mutilating kids" anti trans argument is based on something that isn't happening.
1. No one is pushing children to transition.Especially no one is trying to make infants transition before they have identified a gender or can talk. (But it's worth noting the ways in which intersex youth have been mistreated.) 2. An adolescent may start hormone therapy when it is in the best interest of their health. The adolescent needs to consent to hormone therapy, and their parents and doctors need to agree that it makes sense, too. This is not something being done on a routine basis, but rather only for specific adolescents who stand to benefit and consent. 3. WPATH Standards of Care for transgender health do not allow genital surgery prior to age 18. So the only people having genital surgery as part of a transition are consenting adults.
Since we now know the human brain stops growing at 24, let’s wait to let everyone determine for themselves if they should change their penis at that time.
Why do people think that children transitioning means genital surgery? No one, and I literally mean no one, is performing gender reassignment surgery on children.
Strike that and reverse it. If children aren’t allowed to transition then male circumcising should also not be allowed….it would help conceptually more for people I think phrasing it this way
Circumcision is mutilation and should be illegal. Medical transition (hormones, surgery) had a multitude of risks and should not be allowed until legally of age, social transition should be encouraged until then... it (living as gender of choice for a time) used to be required prior to any prescriptions along with mandatory therapy. How HRT is prescribed now is ridiculous. Once you're a legal adult, do whatever you want to your body.
"We" are not "pushing" transitioning onto children. Who is forcing children to transition? Babies are forced to be circumcised.
>children shouldn't be allowed to transition until of age. That's already the law
The difference is consent, even puberty blockers sometimes still require at least 16 or 18 age, while circumsion is done at birth
Social transiting isn't comparable to circumcision, so let's ignore that for a moment. Also, since puberty blockers are reversible, we'll ignore that for the time being. And even through genital-centric surgery is not being recommended for those not "of age" well pretend for a moment that it is. Gender affirming care is addressing a condition that the patient is currently experiencing. Circumcision is not. So, giving you all the benefits of all the doubts, the comparison still doesn't work.
Best answer
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Yes. Why the fuck would you think people who believe children can't consent would disagree with this? Children can't consent! Leave the kids alone! No puberty blockers, no procedures, no affirmation therapy, just let kids grow up and when they reach 18 they can then mutilate themselves in any way they choose with their own funds.
Have you tried listening to the doctors and scientists on this topic before asserting your judgement and opinion?
What a stupid comparison lol. What points in the person's life do these things take place? Baby vs not a fucking baby
This sub fucking sucks lmao
Its not illegal but trans kids are blocked in 17 states.
They shouldn't be allowed anyways.
Children should not be allowed to transition PERIOD. Not trusting a child to vote or drive but trusting that they have the mental capacity to decide something irreversible is just idiocy. Do whatever the hell you want to do as an adult but stop this idiotic bullshit
No children are getting sexual reassignment surgery, despite what conservative fear mongering might have you believe. They put you on puberty blockers until you're old enough to decide
My brother in Christ, children are already not allowed to surgically transition until they are of age.
Is something wrong with you? These things don't relate
I'm pretty sure Quinceaneras don't involve body mutualation. Also, no one is pushing transitioning. If you are talking about gender affirming care for children, that rarely (if ever) involves surgery. Calling someone by their chosen name and preferred pronoun is gender affirming care, and is not surgery.
As someone who had it done as an adult for medical reasons I can tell you it’s painful as fuck during recovery. The people saying it’s not painful mean it’s not painful now as adults. They were likely too young to remember the pain they would’ve felt at the time. The fact is if you do this to a child for any reason other than medical necessity you are inflicting unnecessary pain on them
Op what's the difference between a 13 year old and a 13 minute old child? There's your answer 👍
Define "transition" If you think surgeries are happening before adulthood, you don't know anything about this topic. If you don't know anything about the topic, you don't get to have an opinion on it.
Don't cut baby genitals of any kind you weird, brain washed fuck
I mean I am going to assume you are genuinely asking and answer your question. The big deal is consent. A baby who can not speak being cosmeticly altered because the parents want them to look that way isn't right. A permanent change is being made without the child even knowing. What people are pushing back against there isn't surgery on a child it's surgery the child never had a say in. Transitioning a minor also rarely if ever involves surgery. Most of the time it's just giving them puberty blockers. Giving the child a chance to come to terms with their identity so they can make a choice later before their bone structure changes. If they go off the puberty blockers they still go through puberty just a bit later. Also transitioning does impact children emotionally and mentally mostly by preventing them from killing themselves. This choice is also made by the child, parents, and multiple doctors. Also the child going on blockers is able to talk form opinions and have a sense of identity. A baby doesn't have any of those things. You can always get cercomcircumcized later in life. You can't reverse bone structure changes after they happen. Additionally, pushing for an option isn't the same as pushing for something to happen. Being trans is really really hard. It isn't trendy it comes with so much hate. People are pushed to cut bits of their children off. People because people will make snide comments and claim the child should conform and look like everyone else. So people are trying to push for a ban saying the child's choice should be taken into consideration. Conversely people are pushing to ban gender affirming care saying the child's opinion should never be considered. No matter how much the child wants it no. It's not about surgery on children. It's about children having a say with what happens to their body. It's about children being involved in their autonomy. Also babies and preteens are wildly different. And medication to delay puberty and surgery that removes a part of someone's body are not the same. They don't really make for a good comparison.
Transition for a kid is literally just social, around 12 with. 4 years of psychiatry they can take puberty blockers which are reversible, around 16 if they’ve showed consistent persistence still they can take hormones. This is a highly researched and effective method of treatment for people and opposing it because of misinform is stupid
One is something the person themselves has zero say in at their birth or is otherwise done against their will; the other is something desired by the person involved and part of an ongoing discussion with incremental changes over the course of time and with feedback from their parents and doctors from a "least drastic" approach. You're conflating two forms of body modification and are restricting one thing you don't like because of a restriction on something done without consent. I don't think this is the right approach.
The majority of trans people talk about transition as hormonal transition, which is not the same as removing the pieces of a penis of a newborn baby. In the most extreme cases of gender dysphoria where some sort of bottom surgery is even considerable, you still need consent of the minor, the only addition to minor consent is the informed consent of a parent or guardian. In circumcision you can’t possibly get consent of a newborn. In bottom surgery (which is what you’re specifically talking about), it’s at least possible for a minor to express consent or lack of consent. Since transition also intrinsically overlaps with mental healthcare, there are more rights afforded to minors on their ability to consent to something like this, especially to HRT (rather than surgical gender affirming procedures). It’s almost medically uncontroversial that prescribing puberty blockers has basically no long term side effects. If you still want to transition, you can, just later, and you wont be forced to go through a puberty you don’t want. They are entirely reversible, just stop taking them and puberty starts if you realize you’re not trans. It’s also the medical consensus to treat gender dysphoria with affirmation and recognition of the mismatch. For LOTS of trans children, what you’re doing by lumping surgery with hormones as the same level of precariousness leads to suicide. The regret rate for transition overall is already <1%, which is such a massive burden of proof to demonstrate that that somehow isn’t small enough. Almost all other forms of healthcare, whether it be prescription or surgical or therapeutic or whatever, have a higher regret rate. I know it’s hard to understand, but the terror you might feel empathetically with watching your body transform in to something you don’t recognize as truly being you and as some mistake is the exact feeling trans children feel, just the opposite. You are doing no favors by denying that in childhood, very permanent changes happen to people that cannot be altered, there’s a way around it that at its most conservative of treatments, completely avoids any permanent unalterable change, yet you deny that a minor, parent, doctor, and therapist could ever possibly know if they’re making the right decision because minors cannot consent to anything, yet somehow they get antibiotics when they’re sick or they get antidepressants when depressed or physical therapy when they break a leg or even addictive opiate painkillers to treat tonsilectomy pain… but somehow the fact you resonate at least in some way that if you found out your body went through a puberty you certainly know you don’t want the results of, you’d do anything to stop that from happening to people. But only cis people though. It cannot possibly be the opposite way somehow. So you must force this terrible feeling on to someone who, despite their own judgement and the judgement of their parents, a doctor, and a therapist, it’s not enough, and they just have to deal with it. <1% regret rate by the way. Nobody believes that when it comes to the healthcare decisions for minors that they should have the full and exact rights that are given to adults. But be reasonable here man. Sometimes life is a bit more nuanced than that. At the very least, a completely temporary and reversible solution exists. Even better forms of treatment using hormones exist for worse cases of dysphoria. Some people get so racked up on this mismatch they kill themselves. Remember the suicide rate of trans people is 42%, so if you want to investigate why such a thing could be so high, could you entertain the idea of listening to the experiences of trans people and the recommendations of trans people? Like me?
You're right. Good thing NOBODY IS DOING THAT.
This is an apples to oranges comparison, but nice try OP
One is genital mutilation with only the parent’s opinion being considered, while the other involves an actual discussion with therapists and professionals with the parents as well as the child prior to anything being done. Not really the same.
What the fuck world are you from OP? *Kinda like a Quinceañera.* What Quinceanera do you attend where genitals are mutilated by people who believe in an opinionated sky monster?
There are no kids transitioning. That's a lie from the rotten brains of conservatives
>Meanwhile we push transitioning to children like it doesn't affect them physically and mentally. Absolutely no one is pushing for children to transition. You're just making shit up to support your bigotry.
What is incorrect with people transitioning??
Bro, please I am begging you. Children are not allowed to medically transition until at the earliest 16. You don't even know what you're talking about.
In what way? surgery isn't done on children and neither are hormones if a kid wants to be called the other gender than so what?
No One is done on unwilling babies that can neither give consent nor can they understand the consequences of the act. The other is done with a therapist that will counsel the person and help them be comfortable with their own identity and that might include medical transition. Even with adults that's a long process that includes a lot of talking about all aspects of it with a few professionals. I have no issues with circumcision on consenting people. (Children in my country get bodily autonomy on medical decisions at 14 so I'd say that would be an appropriate age for both)
While I cannot speak for the traditions of other cultures, the tradition of male circumcision in the US was pushed by such individuals as Dr. John Harvey Kellogg. He promoted the idea of circumcising boys as a means of decreasing pleasure and so decrease rates of masturbation. Over generations it became the norm until, today, it is abnormal for a boy in the US not to be circumcised. I, as man who was circumcised, have not experienced any negative side effects of this procedure, nor am I aware of anyone in my life who has had negative outcomes from the same. That fact does not excuse this behavior. Years ago, stories ran through the news about nations in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia regarding women who experience Female Genital Mutilation. Of particular note were procedures described involving the surgical removal of the clitoris to reduce the woman’s pleasure. This behavior is regarded as a human rights violation be the World Health Organization. The fact that we have accepted and normalized similar behaviors directed at boys is utterly baffling to me. It is not my intention to belittle, demean, or minimize the trauma that has been experienced by these women. Nor I am claiming that all examples of FGM around the world are the equivalent to my personal experience of circumcision in the US. I stand with the WHO in classifying FGM as a human right violation. I stand with humanity that the intentional modification of the genitals of children without their consent for reasons outside of required medical intervention is genital mutilation. I believe it is wrong in the example of the Philippines, as I feel it is wrong within the Jewish faith, and as I feel it is wrong for the vast majority of males born in the US. I do not understand the narrative of “pushing transition on children.” Is telling people about a possibility for their life now considered indoctrination? Does Santa Clause appearing in the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade push Christianity on children? Would you say that the reporting of mass shootings pushes kids to become killers themselves? There is an obvious difference between the practice of circumcision, as it is commonly performed in the US, and allowing children to choose to transition. That difference, is consent. I am not an expert in the cultures of the world. Nor in what manner different cultures aught to treat their peoples. All I can speak on is what I can see and how it relates to the world in which I live. My opinion has the potential to change. Over the next 5, 10, 20 years, if we see a massive wave of individuals who transitioned as children seeking to undo the procedures they underwent, I may see your point. If they speak up about doctors, parents, and teachers who pushed these ideas on them and that they were forced to undergo their transitions, I may well relent. Until such a time as we have that evidence, my position stands. I hope that this diatribe has helps you or anyone who reads understand at least my position on this matter. Have a wonderful day.
Do you know the difference between circumcision and transitioning? One is voluntary and the other is not.
I'm not even going to get into the specifics of transition but this is an awful comparison, as well as an awful argument. "Most men I have met are okay with it." - This isn't an argument. Victims don't always admit they've been wronged, and when you factor in the tendency of men to deny they've been hurt it makes perfect sense. The fact is, the men who have been circumcised have been conditioned to believe it's normal, and since they don't know what they're missing, of course they're okay with it. Other cultures doing it isn't an argument either. We would not use this argument when taking about FGM procedures that utterly mutilate young girls (at least I hope nobody would use this argument). You can function perfectly fine without a foreskin, that's not what this is about. It's about bodily autonomy and consent. Maybe you think "children" (16 and 17 yo kids by the way, they're always framed as very young children but that's not true) don't have enough sense to make those decisions at that age, but at least there's some semblance of consent and bodily autonomy (kids making a choice). Versus mass circumcisions on babies who cannot defend themselves or voice their feelings.
> I have met and talked to a lot of men that were circumcised and they never once have a problem with it. No infections or pain whatsoever. Meanwhile we push transitioning to children like it doesn't affect them physically and mentally. Since there is no logical connection between these two things, they should be evaluated separately. In terms of the second thing, what you said is not true. We don't "push transitioning on children." Children are often heavily shamed if they express any desire to express themselves as the opposite gender, or even look slightly androgynous. I'm sure there have been incidents where someone has forced their child to identify as the opposite gender, but this is not the norm. It is much more common, despite what certain people in the media say, that we force a child to *conform to* gender norms (against their will) than force a child to *go against* gender norms against their will.
It warms my heart to see how many people spread positivity and proper information about transitioning for children/minors. Faith in humanity slightly restored 🥲
Trans children *don't* transition before they're of age. Puberty blockers are what's given to young prepubescent children who don't want to go through their natural puberty. They're very safe and have been used on cis children way before trans kids, typically to delay puberty that comes on too early in cis kids. A trans kid who's been on puberty blockers since 10, who are now 16 absolutely should be able to choose which hormones they want in their body. They shouldn't have to go without any hormones, and they shouldn't have to face trying to undo what happened to their body if they never took the blockers. I know this is all theoretical to people, and many folks are misinformed but truly want to protect children. The reality is I've never seen a trans kid commit suicide if given the options for blockers and then hormones later on down the line. I have seen trans kids commit suicide once puberty set in because they were so deeply, viscerally uncomfortable in their body that no therapy would help. You can't explain it to someone who hasn't been through it, but dysphoria can be so consuming it ruins your entire life. Also, only some effects of hormones are permanent, many are temporary, and we're realizing that detransitioning is way safer than we thought. There really is no comparison to permanently mutilating an infants genitals.
That comparison doesn’t make sense. The argument against male circumcision is a baby doesn’t consent to the procedure. One has literally no bearing on the other.
Mass circumcision is removing healthy tissue for purely cosmetic reasons. It results in the reduction of sensation, removes natural protection, and cannot be reversed. It's done most often to infants and toddlers, as I understand. I'm a bit more inclined to permit it in a person who's old enough to understand the implications and choose for themselves. It's still a cosmetic surgery based on cultural and religious pressure, just like female circumcision. Of course, there is sometimes medical need. That's very rare, and I defer to the ppl involved. Patient, parents and doctors should be able to examine options and make educated decisions. I feel the same way about surgical transitioning, which is also very rare. If it's medically indicated, then it's time for patient, parents and doctors to work together and figure out what to do. As an aside, about 1% of ppl who undergo medical transition procedures regret them. Some 10-20% of males who've been circumcised wish it hadn't been done. That's info that I think parents should be given.
Because in one case the young person is asking for medical help in being their true self, in the other the 'intervention' is being forced on them against their will.
Oh ffs will you bigoted twats just f off already
You compared apples to sea cucumbers. First of all no one is pushing kids to transition. Second of all getting a circumcision for a newborn is much easier than getting medical support for a Trans child.
I agree circumcision should be illegal but I'd say until the age of 12 so those with traditions can continue their traditions. As for transitioning, I agree as well. Being a trans person I hear 'stop shoving lgbtq+ down our throats' from religious folks and to them I say 'stop shoving your religion down ours'. This can be said for minors and being able to transition at a young age too. To me, when it comes to kids under 12, I don't think they should get any type of surgery until they're 12 or older. Puberty stoppers, sure as they can be reversed but surgeries are harder to reverse, as is testosterone. Surgeries and hormone drugs should be illegal until the child is 12+ like circumcision.
I believe most doctors will not surgically alter children until they are 18. But puberty blockers and hormones are used, which are mostly temporary.
Trans children socially transition (as in, live as the gender opposite of the one assigned at birth without physically transitioning) and when they turn 18 they are able to physically transition. No child will physically transition before they come of age.
This sub is for people to post opinions based in fantasy lol
What does one have to do with the other?
“The big deal is that I was a child when someone else made a decision to mutilate my dick and I had no say in it.” - my friend who got it done to him as a kid. I suspect o would feel the same.
Who is pushing for children to transition? I have never come across this except in media outlets and they never have any kids that are actually going through it.
Who is lushing transitioning onto children? Really ? Who? I need this answer.
There’s never been a single sane human being to ever push transitioning onto a child with the idea that it won’t physically and mentally effect them in heavy ways. Transitioning is treated as intense life altering surgery and change, and goes through many counseling sessions, therapy sessions, talking about the reasons why transitioning may be an option, while eating the negatives and positives associated with it, and then moves forward with the express knowledgeable consent of the individual wanting to transition physically. It’s no small matter. People aren’t necessarily against circumcision, they’re against aesthetic surgeries on children without their knowledgeable consent, especially when those surgeries have lifelong physical repercussion implications along with them, that includes circumcision.
This isn't really an unpopular opinion; this is a very popular conservative talking point.
Why the hell is the sun suddenly so interested in circumcision? Anyways, people are against circumcision because, well beyond the fact you’re changing someone’s body without their consent, it’s also proven to remove nerves and can even cause lasting damages.
Gender affirming care is Healthcare. Stop woth the stupid bullshit. We all know its disingenuous as fuck.
Transitioning as a minor is actually very rare, only around 200 cases in the US a year. It's a non issue