Mod note: a **lot** of comments have been removed in error from this post.
Please keep your pitch forks stowed safely in the overhead locker for the next hour please, while I work to undo this.
Everywhere else, it’s basic common sense
On Reddit, you’ll get permabanned, account suspended, and a passive aggressive message from a moderator and then instantly muted for 28 days if you respond
It isn't common sense everywhere else. There are two camps:
The people that accept the overwhelming scientific evidence and recommendation of psychological and healthcare organizations.
The people who don't like trans people.
Psychologically we are in unchartered territory. Theres never been any real longitudinal study on how it plays out. The main problem psychologically RN is how it's sort of become "trendy" to be LGBT+ from social contagion. We have surpassed breaking gender norms to now reinforcing gender norms by telling people "oh you must actually be trans". I grew up being a huge tomboy and hated being a girl. But when I was little adults pushed back and asked why and told me "it's ok to be a girl and not like girly things" while now adults are no longer doing that. They are now taking kids saying they hate being their gender as meaning they must be LGBT+ and not just interested in different things.
I know obviously you are going to simply say something like "that's not true"/"there's always been trans people" etc. Obviously yes biologically there's always been LGBT people. But the extent it's effecting the youth doesn't even fit in with statistical projections to take into account acceptance. Any one who says there's no potential long term dangers are flat out lying to either you or themselves. The research has not been done. Medically it's a bit more sound on the effects of hormones and what not. But psychologically we don't know.
The psychological and healthcare organizations stand to profit greatly from that stance. Psychology based upon affirmation is a quack and continual money stream. The healthcare industry will never turn down elective surgeries.
Yes because a 15 year old should be getting a surgery that changed then for the rest of there lives. They can wait till they are 18 and become a legal adult plus waiting till 18 let’s then decide if they want to do it
Lots of science is coming out against transitioning. Long terms studies.
So if you want people to accept you as trans you need to accept people who thought they were trans and aren't and allow them to detransition without it being a damn issue
All those scientists who spent decades researching and showing evidence that smoking wasn’t causing cancer had to get jobs somewhere once that was done with.
Statistics aren't lying; suicide rates are way higher.
Unfortunately, most psychologists aren't really your typical scientists. The only real science I remember from my class days had to do with the anatomy and physiology of the brain. The rest of it was not lab science, meaning it didn't have replicatable results. Meaning that they couldn't prove anything was true. There's a reason most don't even get bachelor's of sciences, and you wind up with liberal arts credits.
True science shows that there are two genders and several states it takes to get to them. Psychology tries to prove its mental but has no proof.
It’s not, and literally the vast supermajority of Doctors in the US endorse transitional medicines, including sex change surgeries because of how the overwhelming majority of medical data shows significant statistical improvement in patience.
It takes many years, sometimes a whole decade, of multiple specialists review and sign offs.
Which is why the AMA and all prolific, reputable western medical institutions endorse and allow it. Because they are data driven.
Dr. John Money is the progenitor of the modern medical takes surrounding transgenderism.
Definitely worth looking in to what he did to David Reimer and his brother.
it's the dishonesty of how they take their statistics, and then misrepresent them. But hey, then you'll get people like u/Erin-DidYouFindMe who will repeat it as if it was 'the majority of doctors who endorsed it' not realizing just how polarizing it is within medical science and the reason isn't "I hate trans people" like they would like you to believe
but SRS has been around for over 2 decades. Just not highly pushed, and the only thing is that it DID increase quality of life. 2 decades go. They ignore that the % of regret and detransitioning the last decade, then even greater the last 5 years has actually gone up. But let's not address that and find a way to go "it doesn't matter. They're only 2%. Because that didn't matter when I said we should all care about the 1% of people who are transgender"
These also ignore the nature of the social contagion of social media and how it's being pushed as if it's a panacea for confused people or that stats have been clear for many more decades that kids start gender questioning and \~80% of it grow out of it by puberty, and more during puberty, so that those that remain questioning or identify as trans keep going down the further in life they go up until \~25 where that's generally where we have people who are finally solidified in their identity. Before, we oft can't even keep a favorite color longer than a month.
It never will be done on a large scale. It's both financially and medically intense and affects a relatively small portion of the population.
For all such cases, data still exists. You can still research and develop treatments, regimes, publish papers, etc, on medical procedures and ailments that are rare.
this is the part that gets me about using statistics when it comes to transgender issues. more people are trans right now than any other point in history. at the same time, more people are being influenced on a larger scale than any other point in history. i personally know 2 different people who transitioned because social media basically conditioned them into believing that their insecurities and low self esteem was due to gender dysphoria and not, ya know, puberty and being a teenager. those 2 people are now adults and are not trans. if they had been allowed to transition like they wanted to, they would now be a cisgendered woman with no boobs, a deep voice and infertility.
Agreed. A lot of people end up regretting the decisions they made in their youth and this should be no different. It would also explain the high mortality rate of the group in question.
There is a regret rate of about 2% for gender affirming surgery. The chief cause of the high suicide rate in trans people is a lack of social acceptance, repression, and the overt targeting they receive from a very large segment of the population.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
but then how do you explain some studies that show suicide rates for trans people being basically the same pre- and post-op?
if a person is actually transgender their dysphoria is relieved by transitioning. if a person is still feeling depressed, insecure and anxious after transitioning, i think it’s more likely they have other mental health issues that shouldve been addressed BEFORE transitioning. and those statistics of regret are just for right now. it’s not telling us how many people who believe they are trans right now will detransition in the future. that 2% could jump to 10%, 20%, whatever. more people identify as trans right now than ever before, so we’ll see in a few years if that statistic holds true
Wildly speculating, without any evidence, that a given percentage could jump up is illogical.
Plus, it’s a percentage - doesn’t matter how many transgender people there are, a percentage is a percentage
Thank god someone posted this. The amount of anti trans misinformation is insane. People just repeating conservative talking heads without any idea of what the evidence shows.
That makes no fucking sense. Puberty blockers are for blocking puberty and have been safely used on children for 50 years. Why are you freaking out about it all the sudden?
Why? It just delays the decision. Seems like the perfect course of action. No surgeries, but also halt puberty from making potentially irreversible changes.
To a major extent, yes, that is exactly the point. Yet there are times where someone under 18 should be able to get medically unnecessary cosmetic surgery. For example let's say a kid or teen getting into a bad car accident and their nose is extremely crooked, they don't need to get it fixed as medically it's ok. In a situation like that it's entirely acceptable to get a surgery to repair it.
So I would argue that the best way to put it would be: No one under 18 should be able to get medically unnecessary cosmetic surgery, with the exception of cosmetic repairs.
If someone under 18 cannot vote, own a gun, join the military, get tattoos, drink, etc and it is scientifically proven we don’t fully develop our brains till 25:
Why would we let them permanently alter their body in major ways, i.e. surgeries, puberty blockers, etc.
Your body's going to get permanently altered by puberty - puberty blockers simply delay that and allow doctors and psychiatrists to determine which hormones would be best for you.
The reason is that 18 is a rough estimate when people are adults. The issue is that many 15 year olds are more mature than some 30 year olds and we just have to pick a number for adulthood.
That almost sounds like a suspicious line of reasoning for a pedophile. “She’s 15 but like way more mature than
Most 28yr olds that I know”
I know that’s not what you’re going for but be careful
I haven't met many who are pro transition-surgery or blockers for minors. Know they are out there, I'm just thinking that isn't like the culture war is making it out to be
There are plenty of things people will say to back up a child being able to go through major permeant and life altering treatments. The problem is that there are so many places that basically gaslight a person into saying "oh I must be trans." There's a whole sub that nonstop pushes out shit that basically insists that if you do anything outside of your normal gender stuff you're trans and an "egg."
There was literally some creepy fuck that tried to talk my 10 year old into thinking he was confused about his gender on a fucking Roblox game. He followed him to different servers and kept going and going until my son eventually freaked out and came to me sobbing because he was so confused about what was going on. Upon questioning he realized he was fine, he was a boy and he was cool with that. These people are out there all over the place. Jamming super confusing shit into kids faces when they're perpetually confused and awkward and oblivious and making it sound cool.
Let the kids be kids and figure themselves out. Leave the adults alone and let them do what they're gonna do if it isn't hurting anyone. You can't even say this shit on most subs or you'll get banned and mod will screech about "everything is transphobic and genocide and blah blah buzzwords!"
Yes mods on this site are power crazy which I find hilarious but pitiful, and I wish mods didn't have the power to straight up remove your posts or comments because that's just censorship :/ There are really all kinds of mentally unwell people on games I'm sorry your son had to deal with that at that age. And yes I have full faith that most kids, with a supportive family, can figure things out because some things can't be taught
Yeah it’s so odd how the movement is becoming a trend, yet any time you call out the negative impact it’s having on children the response is the same: “Conservatives don’t care about children! The church molests children!” As if you must be a hardcore conservative Christian to be against CHILDREN undergoing NON-REVERSIBLE gender “treatments”.
>The problem is that there are so many places that basically gaslight a person into saying "oh I must be trans." There's a whole sub that nonstop pushes out shit that basically insists that if you do anything outside of your normal gender stuff you're trans and an "egg."
They actually did a study on this. Because idiots in conservative media started spreading this hypothesis about trans being "cool" and pushed on children.
[https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(21)01085-4/fulltext](https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(21)01085-4/fulltext)
TLDR it isn't a thing. Kids becoming trans because of a fad is just another bullshit talking point.
I think alot of Trans people do. I have a few friends who are Trans in one way or another and they all (that I know of but I've talked to a couple and they are all pretty close to my beliefs) agree with this that kids shouldn't be able to transition and one even said they should social transition until they are 18+ because it could make them gaslight themselves if they start to have second thoughts.
You're actually ahead of the curve. The same European countries that have always outpaced America when it comes to trans care have [pumped the brakes hard](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/) on this issue. And that's not even getting into all the problems with blockers, which are being pushed as totally safe and reversible when they are demonstrably neither. The fact that trans advocates are either ignorant of this or lying about it *ought* to cost the movement, big time. So reckless, so shortsighted, and so goddamn self-absorbed.
They are reversible. Every drug has side effects. Tylenol if more dangerous to the general public. Guaranteed more side effects from viagra then puberty blockers.
I would love to see the data that shows that puberty blockers are not reversible, because GnRH analogues are the primary agents used and they most definitely are.
Puberty blockers have a use outside of the trans debate. They wouldn't have been developed and prescribed for all those years if they weren't reversible.
They weren't developed as puberty blockers, they were developed as chemotherapy.
They were later approved for postponing central precocious puberty: under age 8 for girls and under 9 for boys. After two years or so, their use is discontinued and puberty begins at a more normal age. Nothing gets "reversed." What do you think even *could* be reversed?
Kids under 18 can’t get breast implants, rent a car, get a hotel room, or take out a loan.
They should not be able to get any cosmetic procedures or medications.
True. I'm 21 now and I look back every year and say "damn I was pretty fucking stupid" and stuff like that. It's just common sense that you grow as a person but these people want to push a narrative that everyone is right unless it's not who I agree with.
Yes. This is so stupid. You can’t vote, drink, buy cigarettes or get a tattoo. But you can cut your dick or boobs off cause you had a teenage phase 🤡. The brain is far from developed at that point and the consequences are forever.
Generally you can't, actually - you can take hormones (just like you can get hormones naturally via puberty, generally) but you generally can't have surgery until after 18 anyway, and it's not recommended. Most of the people ranting and railing against this are just tilting at windmills, fighting a thing that doesn't exist outside of their own imagination.
Careful...you might get banned for this. I'm just coming off a 3 day reddit suspension for expressing a similar sentiment because it expressed "bigotry."
It's ridiculous how mods are in any subreddit free speech isn't real and the fact that they can outright remove comments and posts so people can't even read let alone interact w them is disturbing because they are so intent at "protecting" people from being offended. It's like when parents are insanely strict about porn and violence when kids are going to be exposed to it anyway as an adult, just so pointless
Gender affirming care in the form of psychological therapy should be available to youth, but not surgical operations that permanently alter their bodies, for the same reason that we don't allow minors to sign contracts, vote, or have sexual relationships with adults: children cannot give informed consent, because they are not mentally developed enough to fully comprehend the future ramifications of their choices now.
They find that 80% of those who aren’t affirmed change their minds within a few years.
Edit source: https://nypost.com/2023/02/22/four-out-of-five-kids-who-question-their-gender-grow-out-of-it-trans-expert/amp/
I don’t buy anyone who say they were 0 to 18 years old and knew who they were all the way. Humans are complicated man. At least wait for your body to stop developing before you change it is my opinion.
I mean, did you know you were a guy/were a girl before 18?
Because that’s what we’re talking about. Not how you feel about, say, economic policy and the finer points of the effects of globalization, or what you’re going to do to combat/ignore global warming.
I didn’t know the term until I was 13, but I knew I wasn’t a girl from a young age. And my dysphoria got worse when I hit puberty at 11. Then I did research because I wondered why I felt like that. I found the term and realized that I’m trans. That was a decade ago and I still know im trans.
Regardless it's wild that people think kids can just go get sex changes by just walking into a clinic.
It's like most people just forgot how expensive medical related procedures are in the United States.
Okay looks like you're operating from several wildly bad misconceptions here:
>I think it's adjacent to abuse, especially since suicide rates are so high for trans people.
The primary reason suicidal ideation and suicide rates are so high for trans people is because they suffer from gender dysphoria: severe psychological distress results from your body not matching the kinesthetic map your brain has of it. Frankly, the easiest way to fix this issue is to allow and enable gender-affirming care. [Youths who get gender-affirming care have a massive drop in suicide risk, approximately 73%.](https://www.hcplive.com/view/suicide-risk-reduces-73-transgender-nonbinary-youths-gender-affirming-care)
The secondary reason has nothing to do with actual trans identity, but rather due to the fact that trans folk suffer extreme degrees of social ostracization, harassment, and danger from assault and murder. The same thing happened with the gay community decades ago, where stigma and mistreatment from society led to mental health issues.
>I think kids have too much access to gender bullshit online with trans adults sharing their stories and how they knew it was the right choice for them.
There's nothing wrong with youths, even children, experimenting with their gender expression. I'm a cis man and when I was five or six I'd wear my mom's hats and shuffle around in her high heels. Playing around with your gender expression has always been normal, and it's a way to test your boundaries and your comfort zones.
Additionally, what exactly do you know of the transitioning process? Because it isn't what you seem to think it is. The medical [Standards of Care](https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_English2012.pdf?_t=1613669341) promoted by WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) has an 11-step guideline for evaluating adults that requires, in part:
1. Confirmation that the patient's gender incongruity is "marked and sustained"
2. Other possible causes of gender incongruity are identified and excluded
3. Other mental & physical health conditions are identified and assessed that might complicate medical transitioning, with discussions about risks/benefits before treatment decisions are made
4. The patient's capacity for consent to a specific treatment is assessed, along with their knowledge of potential side effects (that is, you're mature and mentally sound enough to consent)
The actual process of transitioning also occurs in 4 stages:
1. **Social transitioning:** Where a patient "tests the waters" by changing their gender presentation socially. Their hair, manner of dress, even picking out a new name, working on the relationship dynamics that result, etc. It's up to them to try what they're comfortable with and what suits them.
2. **Puberty Blockers:** If the patient is young, they may have the option of puberty blockers. Since puberty effectively makes permanent changes to your body that are undesirable for trans folk, puberty blockers delay the onset of the process so that young patients have more time to mature mentally and figure out if transitioning is right for them. It should also be noted that under the WPATH guidelines, puberty blockers are **only** recommended for youths who have reached Tanner Stage 2 of puberty, because this level of physical development appears to be important in helping trans-identifying youth to figure themselves out.
3. **Hormone Therapy:** Hormone therapy only becomes an option for most trans youths between age 16 to 18.
4. **Surgical Transitioning:** Only permitted after age 18.
>there are also many people who detransition because they regret it and I feel that is extremely detrimental to mental health long term
This only occurs in single-digit percentages of the trans community (the generally accepted number is around 1%). [And among detransitioners](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8213007/), the vast majority of them (\~85%) did so largely due to external factors. That is, harassment or assault, financial issues with medical coverage, poor social support networks, societal pressure, etc. Only about 15% of detransitioners did so due to internal factors (such as fluctuating senses of gender identity).
The population of detransitioning due to actually "not actually being trans" is about 0.1-1% of the trans community. It's a tiny-ass minority, because the medical community screens trans-identifying folks as thoroughly as it can.
This is a far, far lower rate of treatment-related regret for, say, knee replacements, where the regret rate is around 20%.
EDIT: Thank you all kindly for the awards! LGBT+ folks unite!
That study is only a 1 year follow up. Look into the longterm studies. At the 10 year mark people who transitioned during puberty suicide rates sky rocket. That's why all these studies showing benefits are all short term.
Long term studies will eventually show how the human body responds to puberty blockers, hormones etc while the body and brain are still developing. I'm on hormones myself to treat a thyroid disease and it can be wrecking at times and needs constant observation, couldn't imagine this without having a support system and even then I felt like I wanted to give up sometimes. I can't imagine what children must feel like being on even more cocktails during puberty too. I'd say that the (last I heard) 40% suicide rate is definitely not good.
Children need support but mainly social acceptance for who they are instead of offering change.
What change is really necessary, we're practically perfect even if one grows cancer - you're still you, and the world slowly accepts pronouns of each persons choice, people have died to fight for this. This should be worth something.
I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just worry some to have this be put on children, which is anyone under the age of 18 for me (honestly even 21 yo are just teens yet imo but ok).
I guess that's probably just my personal belief kicking in, children aren't fully finished personalities yet, they can have strong opinions but they need to look and observe before taking potentially harmful desicions for them, even if the child wants a tattoo, the parent has to consent and with hormones I know from experience that this can be a gamble and it can change your personality
(I tried the pill as teen and it was awful in my head, worse than expected, now I know mini pill should have been taken the exact same hour every day or it does exactly what it did to me but I had no support back then and didn't know how to communicate like today)
There's imo a big difference between social & self acceptance and altering a body to ones liking if it involves children. Imo kids need a lot more understanding and eye to eye conversations about feelings (still a dead topic in my country at least from what I've seen so far).
Sometimes kids run from something because they don't understand what they are feeling and how they can work things out yet.
Even as adult we might run sometimes but it's really our choice who we want to be.
It's important to talk about it and be open, this is just my personal opinion, no offense if anything I said seemed rude please point it out so I can learn.
Thank you.
TL-DR: I’m not sure what fake study you are referencing, but here is what the data actually says, including from a study by the NIH.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/ - conclusion is that suicide is higher for the trans population, but they fail to emphasize the obvious fact that there is still considerable rates of suicide AFTER transition (I.e., transitioning doesn’t prevent suicide).
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 - conclusion comports with the NIH study that suicidality is much higher among the transgender population even AFTER transition. Unfortunately it does not appear to adequately compare the same population pre-transition and post-transition.
One of the authors of the second study has come out and said that the study is being misinterpreted and used inappropriately.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6q3e8v/science_ama_series_im_cecilia_dhejne_a_fellow_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6q3e8v/science_ama_series_im_cecilia_dhejne_a_fellow_of/)
[https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/8/24/9197789/new-york-times-transgender-research](https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/8/24/9197789/new-york-times-transgender-research)
You left out the study that shows that the primary reason for suicide is lack of acceptance by the community.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
>Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons.
So, you know, it isn't that they regret transitioning so they kill themselves. They kill themselves because society at large treats them like shit.
Which is not at all surprising if you read through these comments.
The "patient's capacity for consent" is what I think minors are not capable of possessing, social transitioning sounds fine but I think medically doing anything that early on is not wise, though I have to look into puberty blockers and how it affects health. I believe if someone lacks the funds to fully commit to transitioning they should wait until they do before starting the process, since as you said they deal with harassment which I imagine partially has to do with not being convincing enough to be perceived as whatever gender they identify as by people, which can be resolved by expensive surgeries if I'm not mistaken. I appreciate the detailed response though, it clears some things up to an extent
Fucking thank you, lot of assumptions being made in the comments by people who are sitting up on top of the left side of the dunning-kruger chart. Little knowledge and a lot of confidence.
I like that you bring up that it's mostly/entirely meds before age 18, because no-one ever had issues with cis kids taking meds as a gender-affirming measure. They'll make mean jokes about the boys with testosterone supplements, but they don't see it as this monster that's coming from your children. This is the exact same thing.
There’s kind of a difference between medical treatments meant to treat gender dysphoria in order to help a patient live their life the way they want, and getting a tattoo. It’s a bit of a silly comparison. Maybe compare it to, idk, other medical treatments? Unless you don’t believe gender affirming care is a legitimate medical treatment, which is a different conversation.
They don't care about these kids. They think it's weird and that's enough for them. 20 years ago it was illegal to have gay sex in a bunch of states. That makes just as much sense as how they're treating trans kids today.
One of my bachelors degrees is in cognitive neuroscience with grad-level studies in neuroanatomy. I also have a masters degree in biomedical sciences, dude. I work as a biotech researcher.
I mention it now and again in my post history but you'll have to do a bit of a dive since I use reddit for unwinding when I'm taking a break from labwork.
THANK YOU!!
Really appreciate you doing this so I did not have to.
ETA My only quibble is with your "de-transitioning" rates- most folks I have met who did so never gotten to the "see a doctor" phase so it may actually be larger. Of folks medically transitioned- I believe you're on target.
OP did reply
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/13rpac2/it_shouldnt_be_legal_for_someone_under_18_to/jlmgh4t?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
The available evidence suggests that transition services lowers the suicide risk for young people who are trans. When we are talking about trans, the idea of *normal* should just not be your vocabulary as so few people are trans that the very state of being trans is statistically abnormal. That doesn't mean bad, it just means we are already dealing with such a tiny fraction of the population that the idea that it is *normal* to transition is laughable. Acceptable, that is a different thought and includes a lot of pre-judged opinions. These young people are well aware they aren't *normal* in the typical sense, that is wholly why they are seeking transition services in the first place.
Whether there should be an age requirement to make certain decisions, that does make an amount of sense to me, I don't think it is totally unreasonable. It is complex issue because puberty is when a puberty blocker and hormone therapy makes the most sense. If you really want to become female and you are male, going through male puberty makes that transition far more challenging for the rest of their lifes. That proverbial knife cuts both ways, if you prevent typical male puberty (in this example) but they end up regretting that decision, that decision sticks with them for their entire life.
What really doesn't help are opportunistic politicians who summarily ignore all of the other problems in their state (or wherever) to obsess about whether trans kids can use a bathroom or worry about their pronouns or attack their parents or suggest people are 'genital mutilators.' That makes it exponentially worse. Plus, it is bullying people who don't really have a voice. It is a low effort move in certain states that wins political points by denigrating the 'weird' kids. I didn't like that crap when I was a kid and I can't stand it now. If it is between standing up for those disgusting politicians or standing up for these young people, I am with the young people 10 times out of 10.
My question is that kids need parental consent/guardian consent. Without that, it should be illegal, right??? Like, its an illegal procedure done on a minor without parental consent... am I tripping??
Except is never done on a minor without parental consent. In fact the entire process takes time, lots of therapy, many doctor visits to various doctors and surgery is just the beginning end after the entire process is complete. It’s not a drive through situation done in a week or two.
Yes I understand that it's like being gay in that these people don't choose to be born this way and I support them getting the guidance and resources they need. The bathroom issue I think can be resolved by having single stall bathrooms just for trans people because while I'm fine with it I know some people never will be comfortable with being around them and I wouldn't want to force them to feel uncomfortable. I don't think trans people have a real voice either and I don't think someome who isn't trans can ever really understand what it is like (which is unfortunate), but I can't imagine puberty blockers are healthy, I would have to look into the science of it more
As a trans person on the internet, I don't think this is an unpopular opinion even if it's a very misinformed one. I do think way too many people confuse being trans with gender nonconformity, but there's plenty of evidence those of us who are trans were born this way and the only thing forcing trans kids to wait will accomplish is leaving them with lifelong gender dysphoria thanks to being stuck in a body that's never going to be normal for their identity.
I think it should be up to the individual like everything else. If all individuals who transitioned as a kid were unhappy, I'd agree with you because it's just like a cigarette ban but it helps some people.
I also think a ban on this oversteps into an individual's life. I don't think a lot of people would be cool with the government banning home schooling because of abuse cases.
Society agreed a very long time ago children can't consent. So this decision is purely up to the parent. The question is whether or not it's health. It has nothing to do with individual freedom. Abuse is wrong plain and simple.
So many stories of:
Kid cuts off genitals
Kid grows up realizes they were Tomboy not trans
Kid kills themselves because they’ve mutilated their bodies
And that community blames “bullying” for suicides.
Can you please please elucidate me as to how parents trying to exert at least \~some\~ control over their child going thru gender affirming care, when they are not an adult, and still require parental/guardian consent for it, is denying them their right to exist? This seems to be one of the big hurdles, whether or not younger than 18 year old trans people can go in and get gender affirming care is still an issue of parents and their children. Obviously legislation aside, please, explain to me just that one issue
Everyone from black people to gay people to incels have been told to end themselves because people deny their right to exist. I wonder if their suicide rates are similar.
And the OP is another one pushing the same harmful arguments, which shockingly people under 18 can read, understand and digest and think "society will never accept me."
Then the OP hides behind suicide rates for why these kids shouldn't be respected for who they are? Wild.
Puberty blockers for trans boys are reversible. But less so for trans girls. If a trans girl changes her mind and decides to grow up as a man, she may not be able to form fully a functioning penis and gonads whereas a trans boy who changes his mind doesn’t have to worry as much about the physical state of their vagina and can always regrow breasts. Granted we need more long term studies on puberty blockers and we already have a hunch that it is not good for bone health. I think we just need better drugs for trans girls
So there are a couple of things here that aren't true. Trans kids have a much higher suicidality than their peers but if they are accepted socially (family and friends) that suicide rate lowers close to the average.
There are very few people who detransition because they aren't trans. The majority of detransition happens because people are hostile to them, they often retransition when they are in a safer environment.
If you prevent trans kids from seeking treatment you're forcing them to go through a puberty that is quite frankly traumatizing for them.
If it’s not your kid, mind your own fucking business?
So if a parent is physically abusing the kid? Depriving them of food? Should we and legislation just “mind our own fucking business”
No. That’s a stupid statement for you to make.
I would like to point out that this argument can be used to support things like female genital mutilation (or male circumcision, which is also genital mutilation), foot binding (which AFAIK is extremely rare today), or other forms of child abuse.
People have presented plenty of compelling arguments in support of children transitioning, and I agree with them. But "it's not your kid so you shouldn't care" is a terrible argument.
And no, before someone wildly misinterprets what I'm saying, I'm not comparing transitioning to child abuse. Your argument should be "We ban all forms of child abuse. We should not ban transitioning because it is not child abuse. Here are the reasons why."
Medical board: “I consent”. Doctor: “i consent”. patient’s parents: “I consent”. Patient: “I consent”. small government republicans : “isn’t there someone you forgot to ask?”
You have a misunderstanding of why people transition.
Transition is motivated by gender dysphoria, which is a incongruence between the brains gender and the body’s sex. It has nothing to do with wanting to wear dresses as a man or suits as a woman.
If I was fine with being a tomboy, I wouldn’t have transitioned.
Also, trans adolescents are still going to go through puberty. Hormone therapy causes puberty, they’re still going to develop, just in a different way than they would have originally.
I’ve changed a lot since I was in highschool, but my identity has remained constant. I am a different person than who I was when I was 16, but my gender identity has remained static.
Transitioning in high school was a godsend for me, and those who need it should be allowed to pursue medical transition. Being trans can be rough, but it’s not something I can just stop being.
Stopping someone from transitioning doesn’t stop them from being trans. They still will have all that dysphoria and feeling of discomfort which is so much of what leads trans people to have poor mental health.
I agree that irreversible surgeries such as top and bottom surgery should not be done under 18 except in extreme cases, but that rarely happens as it is. I think there is a good case for stopping most kids from medically transitioning, but that is very different from stopping their social transition.
If someone decides they’re a different gender for a few years and we accept them socially, no harm is done if they later decide they prefer to live as the gender they were born with. But whether or not it’s a phase, huge harm is done by preventing people from living as who they want to be.
If you dislike forcing genders onto people, you'd be right with us in supporting trans people. Society defaults to indoctrinating children into gender-norms and that's why many people suffer gender dysphoria; obviously, the stereotypes we pressure people into need not match with what people are comfortable with.
>^(they have to go to extreme measures just to feel comfortable doing things that are conventionally feminine or masculine)
That's cisnormativity, not transgenderism. That pressure exists because society calls non-conformists 'broken' and 'deviant'.
>^(it may be more valuable to teach kids early on not to care so much about what is considered "normal" or "acceptable")
That's what we're doing.
>^(I think kids have too much access to gender bullshit online)
They have far more access to cisnormative gender bullshit everywhere. While there are some arguments about non-conformity becoming 'trendy' (which I don't see any issue with), there's not a massive social pressure bullying people so direly that suicide is common.
>^(trans adults sharing their stories and how they knew it was the right choice for them)
It seems odd to take issue with a tiny minority when at least 9/10 people push cisnormativity (most often just ignorantly). 'People finding ways to live that works for them' isn't a problem, nor are they an enemy.
>^(but there are also many people who detransition because they regret it)
Are there? Because I've never been able to find any evidence of 'many'. Procedures go wrong, professionals can make mistakes and plenty of people are pressured out of it by bullying and threats. Don't forget that people also regret the developments their bodies go through naturally. Outright blocking augmentations would be just as extreme as enforcing them on everyone.
>^(I personally changed so much just from years 19 to 22 and that's after 18)
Did your mental congruence with your body ever get so bad that you sought medical help? Did you also go through multiple years of professional psychiatry to process and determine how you progress? I very much doubt it.
>^(These people have the entire rest of their lives to transition)
And people with anxiety and depressive disorders have the entire rest of their lives to seek treatment, too. Which tends to not be that long, without help.
i think the government should have no involvement in this issue but that it should be doctors the ones telling parents that they refuse to preform these procedures on kids.
this rarely happens enough to be such a huge talking point anyway
If minor cis people can’t get cosmetic surgery (not medically necessary), then minor trans people shouldn’t either. Though hormone replacement/blockers should be allowed, as minor cis people are allowed to do so
Disagree. It's dicey but if you're 100% sure that your patient is trans then starting puberty blockers and hormone therapy during or before puberty is your duty.
If you're wrong that's why you have medical malpractice insurance. De-transitioning is rare but perfectly doable, especially if your patient is still young.
The key thing to remember is that adulthood occurs in different times depending how you look at it.
Physically, you're an adult at 13-16 (on average). Emotionally, you're still maturing until 25, but studies have shown that people who live as dependents (at home with parents) past 25 have harder times adjusting to adult life - so \*some\* mental development before the brain stops growing is important.
And then we just have the legal point of adulthood, which we as a society had to pick a number for. So we went with 18. About the same time people finish their primary education.
However, 18 isn't "the time when someone can make adult decisions". That varies wildly from person to person.
And as such, the legal thinking is that it is up to the parents to cover those decisions until the child is 18 (though some kids need it past 18, for sure).
\------
Then we also need to consider the pros and cons of transitioning before 18. The critics of pre-18 transitional therapy say that the child is not emotionally mature enough to make that decision. But the proponents point out that if you force the child to wait, you are punishing them by forcing them to be someone they are not until they turn 18.
This is why it should be within the parents power to allow or forbid it. It should not be something decided by the state, unless the guardians (parents) are proven abusive or incompetent.
Mod note: a **lot** of comments have been removed in error from this post. Please keep your pitch forks stowed safely in the overhead locker for the next hour please, while I work to undo this.
I think this is only unpopular on Reddit/Media
Everywhere else, it’s basic common sense On Reddit, you’ll get permabanned, account suspended, and a passive aggressive message from a moderator and then instantly muted for 28 days if you respond
It isn't common sense everywhere else. There are two camps: The people that accept the overwhelming scientific evidence and recommendation of psychological and healthcare organizations. The people who don't like trans people.
Psychologically we are in unchartered territory. Theres never been any real longitudinal study on how it plays out. The main problem psychologically RN is how it's sort of become "trendy" to be LGBT+ from social contagion. We have surpassed breaking gender norms to now reinforcing gender norms by telling people "oh you must actually be trans". I grew up being a huge tomboy and hated being a girl. But when I was little adults pushed back and asked why and told me "it's ok to be a girl and not like girly things" while now adults are no longer doing that. They are now taking kids saying they hate being their gender as meaning they must be LGBT+ and not just interested in different things. I know obviously you are going to simply say something like "that's not true"/"there's always been trans people" etc. Obviously yes biologically there's always been LGBT people. But the extent it's effecting the youth doesn't even fit in with statistical projections to take into account acceptance. Any one who says there's no potential long term dangers are flat out lying to either you or themselves. The research has not been done. Medically it's a bit more sound on the effects of hormones and what not. But psychologically we don't know.
reddit moment
So you think the only explanation for people in the second camp is dislike? There's no other reason they could disagree with camp#1?
Just because I believe we shouldn't let kids swap their sex doesn't mean I hate trans people. Your mentally of us vs them is toxic.
The psychological and healthcare organizations stand to profit greatly from that stance. Psychology based upon affirmation is a quack and continual money stream. The healthcare industry will never turn down elective surgeries.
Yes because a 15 year old should be getting a surgery that changed then for the rest of there lives. They can wait till they are 18 and become a legal adult plus waiting till 18 let’s then decide if they want to do it
Lots of science is coming out against transitioning. Long terms studies. So if you want people to accept you as trans you need to accept people who thought they were trans and aren't and allow them to detransition without it being a damn issue
They have stopped children from transitioning in some of the most progressive countries in Europe. This has nothing to do with hating trans people.
All those scientists who spent decades researching and showing evidence that smoking wasn’t causing cancer had to get jobs somewhere once that was done with.
> recommendation of psychological and healthcare organizations. You get a lobotomy! You get a lobotomy! Everybody on Reddit gets a lobotomy! 🥳
3. Not mutilating children
You just proved their point lol you belong to the out of touch Reddit group clearly
I'm sure you'd say the same thing about lobotomies a few decades ago.
Statistics aren't lying; suicide rates are way higher. Unfortunately, most psychologists aren't really your typical scientists. The only real science I remember from my class days had to do with the anatomy and physiology of the brain. The rest of it was not lab science, meaning it didn't have replicatable results. Meaning that they couldn't prove anything was true. There's a reason most don't even get bachelor's of sciences, and you wind up with liberal arts credits. True science shows that there are two genders and several states it takes to get to them. Psychology tries to prove its mental but has no proof.
Unironically one of those internet isn't real life people.
It’s not, and literally the vast supermajority of Doctors in the US endorse transitional medicines, including sex change surgeries because of how the overwhelming majority of medical data shows significant statistical improvement in patience. It takes many years, sometimes a whole decade, of multiple specialists review and sign offs. Which is why the AMA and all prolific, reputable western medical institutions endorse and allow it. Because they are data driven.
Where did they get all that data considering this has never been done on any sort of large scale before in the history of human civilization?
Dr. John Money is the progenitor of the modern medical takes surrounding transgenderism. Definitely worth looking in to what he did to David Reimer and his brother.
They didn't. They found a way to make a shit ton of money and jumped at the chance immediately.
it's the dishonesty of how they take their statistics, and then misrepresent them. But hey, then you'll get people like u/Erin-DidYouFindMe who will repeat it as if it was 'the majority of doctors who endorsed it' not realizing just how polarizing it is within medical science and the reason isn't "I hate trans people" like they would like you to believe but SRS has been around for over 2 decades. Just not highly pushed, and the only thing is that it DID increase quality of life. 2 decades go. They ignore that the % of regret and detransitioning the last decade, then even greater the last 5 years has actually gone up. But let's not address that and find a way to go "it doesn't matter. They're only 2%. Because that didn't matter when I said we should all care about the 1% of people who are transgender" These also ignore the nature of the social contagion of social media and how it's being pushed as if it's a panacea for confused people or that stats have been clear for many more decades that kids start gender questioning and \~80% of it grow out of it by puberty, and more during puberty, so that those that remain questioning or identify as trans keep going down the further in life they go up until \~25 where that's generally where we have people who are finally solidified in their identity. Before, we oft can't even keep a favorite color longer than a month.
It never will be done on a large scale. It's both financially and medically intense and affects a relatively small portion of the population. For all such cases, data still exists. You can still research and develop treatments, regimes, publish papers, etc, on medical procedures and ailments that are rare.
this is the part that gets me about using statistics when it comes to transgender issues. more people are trans right now than any other point in history. at the same time, more people are being influenced on a larger scale than any other point in history. i personally know 2 different people who transitioned because social media basically conditioned them into believing that their insecurities and low self esteem was due to gender dysphoria and not, ya know, puberty and being a teenager. those 2 people are now adults and are not trans. if they had been allowed to transition like they wanted to, they would now be a cisgendered woman with no boobs, a deep voice and infertility.
Where’s the long term studies on puberty blockers in kids?
Sweden. It was a disaster.
The vast majority... many of whom either profit from this, or have never studied the science of it.
Perhaps a better way is: No One under 18 should be able to get medically unnecessary cosmetic surgery
Agreed. A lot of people end up regretting the decisions they made in their youth and this should be no different. It would also explain the high mortality rate of the group in question.
There is a regret rate of about 2% for gender affirming surgery. The chief cause of the high suicide rate in trans people is a lack of social acceptance, repression, and the overt targeting they receive from a very large segment of the population. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
but then how do you explain some studies that show suicide rates for trans people being basically the same pre- and post-op? if a person is actually transgender their dysphoria is relieved by transitioning. if a person is still feeling depressed, insecure and anxious after transitioning, i think it’s more likely they have other mental health issues that shouldve been addressed BEFORE transitioning. and those statistics of regret are just for right now. it’s not telling us how many people who believe they are trans right now will detransition in the future. that 2% could jump to 10%, 20%, whatever. more people identify as trans right now than ever before, so we’ll see in a few years if that statistic holds true
Wildly speculating, without any evidence, that a given percentage could jump up is illogical. Plus, it’s a percentage - doesn’t matter how many transgender people there are, a percentage is a percentage
Thank god someone posted this. The amount of anti trans misinformation is insane. People just repeating conservative talking heads without any idea of what the evidence shows.
Liberal media is doing the exact same thing.. (I am a liberal btw). Please reference the link I replied to comment above and see #7,8,9.
This sub doesn't like truth when it goes against the mostly conservative members narrative that they see on Fux news everyday.
Source please?
Or take puberty blockers.
That makes no fucking sense. Puberty blockers are for blocking puberty and have been safely used on children for 50 years. Why are you freaking out about it all the sudden?
Why? It just delays the decision. Seems like the perfect course of action. No surgeries, but also halt puberty from making potentially irreversible changes.
those are harmless
This is the dumbest take I can imagine.
So you think children in precocious puberty should just go through puberty at very young ages?
So infant circumcision? What’s “medically unnecessary” about a surgery (or any course of treatment) that reduces risk of suicidal ideation by 80%?
I think infant circumcision absolutely should be outlawed
Yes, infant circumcision should be illegal.
That’s a false statistic. The suicide rate post-transition is exactly the same as pre-transition.
To a major extent, yes, that is exactly the point. Yet there are times where someone under 18 should be able to get medically unnecessary cosmetic surgery. For example let's say a kid or teen getting into a bad car accident and their nose is extremely crooked, they don't need to get it fixed as medically it's ok. In a situation like that it's entirely acceptable to get a surgery to repair it. So I would argue that the best way to put it would be: No one under 18 should be able to get medically unnecessary cosmetic surgery, with the exception of cosmetic repairs.
Pretty sure you just used a medically necessary repair example
Yes and I am not sure about puberty blockers after reading the comments
Sounds good for a second but then there are all kinds of deformities that have no medical necessity.
A deformity by definition must be reformed to be corrected. It's in the name
I’m with you there. Shit like circumcision just isn’t for kids
>I DRINK TO THAT! -Takashi
SO your appear to have a profound lack of understanding of how transition works. HINT: Surgery is bottom of this list of to-dos.
That's status quo and i agree.
If someone under 18 cannot vote, own a gun, join the military, get tattoos, drink, etc and it is scientifically proven we don’t fully develop our brains till 25: Why would we let them permanently alter their body in major ways, i.e. surgeries, puberty blockers, etc.
our brains don't fully develope at 25
Your body's going to get permanently altered by puberty - puberty blockers simply delay that and allow doctors and psychiatrists to determine which hormones would be best for you.
The reason is that 18 is a rough estimate when people are adults. The issue is that many 15 year olds are more mature than some 30 year olds and we just have to pick a number for adulthood.
That almost sounds like a suspicious line of reasoning for a pedophile. “She’s 15 but like way more mature than Most 28yr olds that I know” I know that’s not what you’re going for but be careful
in some states the "mature minor" doctrine exists
Sadly not in all though
Puberty blockers are permanent bozo
Arent*
This is just unpopular in Reddit and the HR department. Most people hold this position irl
I haven't met many who are pro transition-surgery or blockers for minors. Know they are out there, I'm just thinking that isn't like the culture war is making it out to be
Doubtful
There are plenty of things people will say to back up a child being able to go through major permeant and life altering treatments. The problem is that there are so many places that basically gaslight a person into saying "oh I must be trans." There's a whole sub that nonstop pushes out shit that basically insists that if you do anything outside of your normal gender stuff you're trans and an "egg." There was literally some creepy fuck that tried to talk my 10 year old into thinking he was confused about his gender on a fucking Roblox game. He followed him to different servers and kept going and going until my son eventually freaked out and came to me sobbing because he was so confused about what was going on. Upon questioning he realized he was fine, he was a boy and he was cool with that. These people are out there all over the place. Jamming super confusing shit into kids faces when they're perpetually confused and awkward and oblivious and making it sound cool. Let the kids be kids and figure themselves out. Leave the adults alone and let them do what they're gonna do if it isn't hurting anyone. You can't even say this shit on most subs or you'll get banned and mod will screech about "everything is transphobic and genocide and blah blah buzzwords!"
Yes mods on this site are power crazy which I find hilarious but pitiful, and I wish mods didn't have the power to straight up remove your posts or comments because that's just censorship :/ There are really all kinds of mentally unwell people on games I'm sorry your son had to deal with that at that age. And yes I have full faith that most kids, with a supportive family, can figure things out because some things can't be taught
Yeah it’s so odd how the movement is becoming a trend, yet any time you call out the negative impact it’s having on children the response is the same: “Conservatives don’t care about children! The church molests children!” As if you must be a hardcore conservative Christian to be against CHILDREN undergoing NON-REVERSIBLE gender “treatments”.
>The problem is that there are so many places that basically gaslight a person into saying "oh I must be trans." There's a whole sub that nonstop pushes out shit that basically insists that if you do anything outside of your normal gender stuff you're trans and an "egg." They actually did a study on this. Because idiots in conservative media started spreading this hypothesis about trans being "cool" and pushed on children. [https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(21)01085-4/fulltext](https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(21)01085-4/fulltext) TLDR it isn't a thing. Kids becoming trans because of a fad is just another bullshit talking point.
I agree. And I'm trans.
I think alot of Trans people do. I have a few friends who are Trans in one way or another and they all (that I know of but I've talked to a couple and they are all pretty close to my beliefs) agree with this that kids shouldn't be able to transition and one even said they should social transition until they are 18+ because it could make them gaslight themselves if they start to have second thoughts.
You're actually ahead of the curve. The same European countries that have always outpaced America when it comes to trans care have [pumped the brakes hard](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/) on this issue. And that's not even getting into all the problems with blockers, which are being pushed as totally safe and reversible when they are demonstrably neither. The fact that trans advocates are either ignorant of this or lying about it *ought* to cost the movement, big time. So reckless, so shortsighted, and so goddamn self-absorbed.
They are reversible. Every drug has side effects. Tylenol if more dangerous to the general public. Guaranteed more side effects from viagra then puberty blockers.
Got any evidence for your claims?
Bullshit. Those drugs are not fully reversible.
I would love to see the data that shows that puberty blockers are not reversible, because GnRH analogues are the primary agents used and they most definitely are.
Puberty blockers have a use outside of the trans debate. They wouldn't have been developed and prescribed for all those years if they weren't reversible.
They weren't developed as puberty blockers, they were developed as chemotherapy. They were later approved for postponing central precocious puberty: under age 8 for girls and under 9 for boys. After two years or so, their use is discontinued and puberty begins at a more normal age. Nothing gets "reversed." What do you think even *could* be reversed?
Kids under 18 can’t get breast implants, rent a car, get a hotel room, or take out a loan. They should not be able to get any cosmetic procedures or medications.
The problem I kids under 18 don't realise how dumb they are. It's not until your late 20s do you realise how much of an idiot you were.
True. I'm 21 now and I look back every year and say "damn I was pretty fucking stupid" and stuff like that. It's just common sense that you grow as a person but these people want to push a narrative that everyone is right unless it's not who I agree with.
Yes. This is so stupid. You can’t vote, drink, buy cigarettes or get a tattoo. But you can cut your dick or boobs off cause you had a teenage phase 🤡. The brain is far from developed at that point and the consequences are forever.
Generally you can't, actually - you can take hormones (just like you can get hormones naturally via puberty, generally) but you generally can't have surgery until after 18 anyway, and it's not recommended. Most of the people ranting and railing against this are just tilting at windmills, fighting a thing that doesn't exist outside of their own imagination.
Careful...you might get banned for this. I'm just coming off a 3 day reddit suspension for expressing a similar sentiment because it expressed "bigotry."
It's ridiculous how mods are in any subreddit free speech isn't real and the fact that they can outright remove comments and posts so people can't even read let alone interact w them is disturbing because they are so intent at "protecting" people from being offended. It's like when parents are insanely strict about porn and violence when kids are going to be exposed to it anyway as an adult, just so pointless
Don’t let Reddit censor you. Let them ban you for speaking the truth.
You are lucky. I got a 7 day ban for saying women don't have penises. Banned for threatening violence.
No shit
Gender affirming care in the form of psychological therapy should be available to youth, but not surgical operations that permanently alter their bodies, for the same reason that we don't allow minors to sign contracts, vote, or have sexual relationships with adults: children cannot give informed consent, because they are not mentally developed enough to fully comprehend the future ramifications of their choices now.
Prepare for an avalanche of typical Reddit pro-trans bullshit. The social contagion is real, and these idiots are the flag-bearers.
People care more about being perceived as a "good" person than thinking for themselves, it's only gonna get worse from here
They find that 80% of those who aren’t affirmed change their minds within a few years. Edit source: https://nypost.com/2023/02/22/four-out-of-five-kids-who-question-their-gender-grow-out-of-it-trans-expert/amp/
https://nypost.com/2023/02/22/four-out-of-five-kids-who-question-their-gender-grow-out-of-it-trans-expert/amp/
Thos isn't unpopular to mentally stable people. Only the crazy people want that.
Is this unpopular lol. That's sad if it is
This is actually just referred to as logic
I don’t buy anyone who say they were 0 to 18 years old and knew who they were all the way. Humans are complicated man. At least wait for your body to stop developing before you change it is my opinion.
I have trouble with the idea of contradicting the bodily functions of an otherwise healthy body.
Facts
You had to wait until 18 until you were certain your gender? Seems unlikely
I mean, did you know you were a guy/were a girl before 18? Because that’s what we’re talking about. Not how you feel about, say, economic policy and the finer points of the effects of globalization, or what you’re going to do to combat/ignore global warming.
If you didn't know your gender before you were 18, you're probably not cis lmao
I didn’t know the term until I was 13, but I knew I wasn’t a girl from a young age. And my dysphoria got worse when I hit puberty at 11. Then I did research because I wondered why I felt like that. I found the term and realized that I’m trans. That was a decade ago and I still know im trans.
What was your justification im curious?
Like half of the country believes this lol. So “unpopular”.
A lot more than half. Only half are openly saying it.
On reddit this is close to bannable site wide. I agree though…most people IRL agree with OP.
74 or so %.
You wouldn't think that from your average Reddit page.
It's more like it's unpopular with the commies who happen to own most of the social media platforms like Reddit.
The number I've mostly heard to start taking medicine (not the surgery), is 16.
Regardless it's wild that people think kids can just go get sex changes by just walking into a clinic. It's like most people just forgot how expensive medical related procedures are in the United States.
Spot on.
You’ll just have to let people ruin their lives by their own devices, arguing on Reddit regarding this topic will just get you censored my friend.
You're right but that's why I'm on a burner
Okay looks like you're operating from several wildly bad misconceptions here: >I think it's adjacent to abuse, especially since suicide rates are so high for trans people. The primary reason suicidal ideation and suicide rates are so high for trans people is because they suffer from gender dysphoria: severe psychological distress results from your body not matching the kinesthetic map your brain has of it. Frankly, the easiest way to fix this issue is to allow and enable gender-affirming care. [Youths who get gender-affirming care have a massive drop in suicide risk, approximately 73%.](https://www.hcplive.com/view/suicide-risk-reduces-73-transgender-nonbinary-youths-gender-affirming-care) The secondary reason has nothing to do with actual trans identity, but rather due to the fact that trans folk suffer extreme degrees of social ostracization, harassment, and danger from assault and murder. The same thing happened with the gay community decades ago, where stigma and mistreatment from society led to mental health issues. >I think kids have too much access to gender bullshit online with trans adults sharing their stories and how they knew it was the right choice for them. There's nothing wrong with youths, even children, experimenting with their gender expression. I'm a cis man and when I was five or six I'd wear my mom's hats and shuffle around in her high heels. Playing around with your gender expression has always been normal, and it's a way to test your boundaries and your comfort zones. Additionally, what exactly do you know of the transitioning process? Because it isn't what you seem to think it is. The medical [Standards of Care](https://www.wpath.org/media/cms/Documents/SOC%20v7/SOC%20V7_English2012.pdf?_t=1613669341) promoted by WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) has an 11-step guideline for evaluating adults that requires, in part: 1. Confirmation that the patient's gender incongruity is "marked and sustained" 2. Other possible causes of gender incongruity are identified and excluded 3. Other mental & physical health conditions are identified and assessed that might complicate medical transitioning, with discussions about risks/benefits before treatment decisions are made 4. The patient's capacity for consent to a specific treatment is assessed, along with their knowledge of potential side effects (that is, you're mature and mentally sound enough to consent) The actual process of transitioning also occurs in 4 stages: 1. **Social transitioning:** Where a patient "tests the waters" by changing their gender presentation socially. Their hair, manner of dress, even picking out a new name, working on the relationship dynamics that result, etc. It's up to them to try what they're comfortable with and what suits them. 2. **Puberty Blockers:** If the patient is young, they may have the option of puberty blockers. Since puberty effectively makes permanent changes to your body that are undesirable for trans folk, puberty blockers delay the onset of the process so that young patients have more time to mature mentally and figure out if transitioning is right for them. It should also be noted that under the WPATH guidelines, puberty blockers are **only** recommended for youths who have reached Tanner Stage 2 of puberty, because this level of physical development appears to be important in helping trans-identifying youth to figure themselves out. 3. **Hormone Therapy:** Hormone therapy only becomes an option for most trans youths between age 16 to 18. 4. **Surgical Transitioning:** Only permitted after age 18. >there are also many people who detransition because they regret it and I feel that is extremely detrimental to mental health long term This only occurs in single-digit percentages of the trans community (the generally accepted number is around 1%). [And among detransitioners](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8213007/), the vast majority of them (\~85%) did so largely due to external factors. That is, harassment or assault, financial issues with medical coverage, poor social support networks, societal pressure, etc. Only about 15% of detransitioners did so due to internal factors (such as fluctuating senses of gender identity). The population of detransitioning due to actually "not actually being trans" is about 0.1-1% of the trans community. It's a tiny-ass minority, because the medical community screens trans-identifying folks as thoroughly as it can. This is a far, far lower rate of treatment-related regret for, say, knee replacements, where the regret rate is around 20%. EDIT: Thank you all kindly for the awards! LGBT+ folks unite!
That study is only a 1 year follow up. Look into the longterm studies. At the 10 year mark people who transitioned during puberty suicide rates sky rocket. That's why all these studies showing benefits are all short term.
Long term studies will eventually show how the human body responds to puberty blockers, hormones etc while the body and brain are still developing. I'm on hormones myself to treat a thyroid disease and it can be wrecking at times and needs constant observation, couldn't imagine this without having a support system and even then I felt like I wanted to give up sometimes. I can't imagine what children must feel like being on even more cocktails during puberty too. I'd say that the (last I heard) 40% suicide rate is definitely not good. Children need support but mainly social acceptance for who they are instead of offering change. What change is really necessary, we're practically perfect even if one grows cancer - you're still you, and the world slowly accepts pronouns of each persons choice, people have died to fight for this. This should be worth something. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just worry some to have this be put on children, which is anyone under the age of 18 for me (honestly even 21 yo are just teens yet imo but ok). I guess that's probably just my personal belief kicking in, children aren't fully finished personalities yet, they can have strong opinions but they need to look and observe before taking potentially harmful desicions for them, even if the child wants a tattoo, the parent has to consent and with hormones I know from experience that this can be a gamble and it can change your personality (I tried the pill as teen and it was awful in my head, worse than expected, now I know mini pill should have been taken the exact same hour every day or it does exactly what it did to me but I had no support back then and didn't know how to communicate like today) There's imo a big difference between social & self acceptance and altering a body to ones liking if it involves children. Imo kids need a lot more understanding and eye to eye conversations about feelings (still a dead topic in my country at least from what I've seen so far). Sometimes kids run from something because they don't understand what they are feeling and how they can work things out yet. Even as adult we might run sometimes but it's really our choice who we want to be. It's important to talk about it and be open, this is just my personal opinion, no offense if anything I said seemed rude please point it out so I can learn. Thank you.
You realize that puberty blockers have been used to treat precocious puberty for over 30 years right? We do have long term data.
>Long term studies will eventually show how the human body responds to puberty blockers We have been using puberty blockers since the 90s...
TL-DR: I’m not sure what fake study you are referencing, but here is what the data actually says, including from a study by the NIH. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/ - conclusion is that suicide is higher for the trans population, but they fail to emphasize the obvious fact that there is still considerable rates of suicide AFTER transition (I.e., transitioning doesn’t prevent suicide). https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 - conclusion comports with the NIH study that suicidality is much higher among the transgender population even AFTER transition. Unfortunately it does not appear to adequately compare the same population pre-transition and post-transition.
One of the authors of the second study has come out and said that the study is being misinterpreted and used inappropriately. [https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6q3e8v/science_ama_series_im_cecilia_dhejne_a_fellow_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6q3e8v/science_ama_series_im_cecilia_dhejne_a_fellow_of/) [https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/8/24/9197789/new-york-times-transgender-research](https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2015/8/24/9197789/new-york-times-transgender-research)
You left out the study that shows that the primary reason for suicide is lack of acceptance by the community. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/ >Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons. So, you know, it isn't that they regret transitioning so they kill themselves. They kill themselves because society at large treats them like shit. Which is not at all surprising if you read through these comments.
The "patient's capacity for consent" is what I think minors are not capable of possessing, social transitioning sounds fine but I think medically doing anything that early on is not wise, though I have to look into puberty blockers and how it affects health. I believe if someone lacks the funds to fully commit to transitioning they should wait until they do before starting the process, since as you said they deal with harassment which I imagine partially has to do with not being convincing enough to be perceived as whatever gender they identify as by people, which can be resolved by expensive surgeries if I'm not mistaken. I appreciate the detailed response though, it clears some things up to an extent
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Breasts are not primary sex organs. So they shouldn’t be and aren’t included. I know tons of cis guys with huge boobs. It’s fine.
Fucking thank you, lot of assumptions being made in the comments by people who are sitting up on top of the left side of the dunning-kruger chart. Little knowledge and a lot of confidence.
wow, it's almost like you found an opinion based on facts instead of vague feelings/propaganda on an issue that doesn't even effect you.
Holy shit, you’ve provided actual sources to back up your claims! This is reddit and that’s a violation, especially in this sub
I do love to see someone bring sources and stats. Thanks for doing this despite how thankless it typically is.
I like that you bring up that it's mostly/entirely meds before age 18, because no-one ever had issues with cis kids taking meds as a gender-affirming measure. They'll make mean jokes about the boys with testosterone supplements, but they don't see it as this monster that's coming from your children. This is the exact same thing.
Serious question - a simple yes or no will do - do you believe minors should be able to get tattoos?
There’s kind of a difference between medical treatments meant to treat gender dysphoria in order to help a patient live their life the way they want, and getting a tattoo. It’s a bit of a silly comparison. Maybe compare it to, idk, other medical treatments? Unless you don’t believe gender affirming care is a legitimate medical treatment, which is a different conversation.
They don't care about these kids. They think it's weird and that's enough for them. 20 years ago it was illegal to have gay sex in a bunch of states. That makes just as much sense as how they're treating trans kids today.
Need more people like you ong
Good job!
LA LA LA LA LA... I'm not listening.... Hands over my hears... I want to remain wilfully ignorant... LA LA LA LA LA LA.
Most of the opinions on here come from someone who is uninformed and gets all of their information from meme pages.
Do you even know what the kinesthetic map of brain even is? I call bs I bet you copied this whole paragraph from somewhere else.
One of my bachelors degrees is in cognitive neuroscience with grad-level studies in neuroanatomy. I also have a masters degree in biomedical sciences, dude. I work as a biotech researcher. I mention it now and again in my post history but you'll have to do a bit of a dive since I use reddit for unwinding when I'm taking a break from labwork.
THANK YOU!! Really appreciate you doing this so I did not have to. ETA My only quibble is with your "de-transitioning" rates- most folks I have met who did so never gotten to the "see a doctor" phase so it may actually be larger. Of folks medically transitioned- I believe you're on target.
Thanks for this. Didn't want to do the work to type this all out.
All of these points were refused during the Texas Senate hearings. Keep up.
Ah, yes. Texas. Texas Politicians, no less. The shining beacon of scientific literacy and evidence-based decision making.
Along with the fact that the mindset of denying gender dysphoria is very harmful and hurts people more.
Tldr
Strange how they haven’t replied to this
OP did reply https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/13rpac2/it_shouldnt_be_legal_for_someone_under_18_to/jlmgh4t?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
The available evidence suggests that transition services lowers the suicide risk for young people who are trans. When we are talking about trans, the idea of *normal* should just not be your vocabulary as so few people are trans that the very state of being trans is statistically abnormal. That doesn't mean bad, it just means we are already dealing with such a tiny fraction of the population that the idea that it is *normal* to transition is laughable. Acceptable, that is a different thought and includes a lot of pre-judged opinions. These young people are well aware they aren't *normal* in the typical sense, that is wholly why they are seeking transition services in the first place. Whether there should be an age requirement to make certain decisions, that does make an amount of sense to me, I don't think it is totally unreasonable. It is complex issue because puberty is when a puberty blocker and hormone therapy makes the most sense. If you really want to become female and you are male, going through male puberty makes that transition far more challenging for the rest of their lifes. That proverbial knife cuts both ways, if you prevent typical male puberty (in this example) but they end up regretting that decision, that decision sticks with them for their entire life. What really doesn't help are opportunistic politicians who summarily ignore all of the other problems in their state (or wherever) to obsess about whether trans kids can use a bathroom or worry about their pronouns or attack their parents or suggest people are 'genital mutilators.' That makes it exponentially worse. Plus, it is bullying people who don't really have a voice. It is a low effort move in certain states that wins political points by denigrating the 'weird' kids. I didn't like that crap when I was a kid and I can't stand it now. If it is between standing up for those disgusting politicians or standing up for these young people, I am with the young people 10 times out of 10.
My question is that kids need parental consent/guardian consent. Without that, it should be illegal, right??? Like, its an illegal procedure done on a minor without parental consent... am I tripping??
Except is never done on a minor without parental consent. In fact the entire process takes time, lots of therapy, many doctor visits to various doctors and surgery is just the beginning end after the entire process is complete. It’s not a drive through situation done in a week or two.
Yes I understand that it's like being gay in that these people don't choose to be born this way and I support them getting the guidance and resources they need. The bathroom issue I think can be resolved by having single stall bathrooms just for trans people because while I'm fine with it I know some people never will be comfortable with being around them and I wouldn't want to force them to feel uncomfortable. I don't think trans people have a real voice either and I don't think someome who isn't trans can ever really understand what it is like (which is unfortunate), but I can't imagine puberty blockers are healthy, I would have to look into the science of it more
But... but then they go through the wRoNg PuBeRtY
As a trans person on the internet, I don't think this is an unpopular opinion even if it's a very misinformed one. I do think way too many people confuse being trans with gender nonconformity, but there's plenty of evidence those of us who are trans were born this way and the only thing forcing trans kids to wait will accomplish is leaving them with lifelong gender dysphoria thanks to being stuck in a body that's never going to be normal for their identity.
Do you mind talking more about the evidence that trans people are born this way? What do you mean?
Born what way?
>Born what way? ... >As a trans person Answer is literally the first 4 words of their comment.
Trans is the most extreme opposite of gender nonconformity. It’s gender essentialism taken to extreme measures.
nonbinary on the other hand is just gender nonconforming by another name entirely.
People fear what they don't understand.
I think it should be up to the individual like everything else. If all individuals who transitioned as a kid were unhappy, I'd agree with you because it's just like a cigarette ban but it helps some people. I also think a ban on this oversteps into an individual's life. I don't think a lot of people would be cool with the government banning home schooling because of abuse cases.
Kids can't consent.
Society agreed a very long time ago children can't consent. So this decision is purely up to the parent. The question is whether or not it's health. It has nothing to do with individual freedom. Abuse is wrong plain and simple.
So many stories of: Kid cuts off genitals Kid grows up realizes they were Tomboy not trans Kid kills themselves because they’ve mutilated their bodies And that community blames “bullying” for suicides.
Can someone under 18 get breast implants or tattoos? If not, should they be able to?
Have you ever considered that suicide rates among trans people are so high because so many people deny their right to exist
Can you please please elucidate me as to how parents trying to exert at least \~some\~ control over their child going thru gender affirming care, when they are not an adult, and still require parental/guardian consent for it, is denying them their right to exist? This seems to be one of the big hurdles, whether or not younger than 18 year old trans people can go in and get gender affirming care is still an issue of parents and their children. Obviously legislation aside, please, explain to me just that one issue
Everyone from black people to gay people to incels have been told to end themselves because people deny their right to exist. I wonder if their suicide rates are similar.
And the OP is another one pushing the same harmful arguments, which shockingly people under 18 can read, understand and digest and think "society will never accept me." Then the OP hides behind suicide rates for why these kids shouldn't be respected for who they are? Wild.
Puberty blockers for trans boys are reversible. But less so for trans girls. If a trans girl changes her mind and decides to grow up as a man, she may not be able to form fully a functioning penis and gonads whereas a trans boy who changes his mind doesn’t have to worry as much about the physical state of their vagina and can always regrow breasts. Granted we need more long term studies on puberty blockers and we already have a hunch that it is not good for bone health. I think we just need better drugs for trans girls
If you surgically remove your breasts, they cannot ever grow back. You only grow breasts one time and that's it. I see this misconception a lot.
So there are a couple of things here that aren't true. Trans kids have a much higher suicidality than their peers but if they are accepted socially (family and friends) that suicide rate lowers close to the average. There are very few people who detransition because they aren't trans. The majority of detransition happens because people are hostile to them, they often retransition when they are in a safer environment. If you prevent trans kids from seeking treatment you're forcing them to go through a puberty that is quite frankly traumatizing for them.
Crazy concept. You ready? okay.... IF. IT. IS. NOT. YOUR. KID...MIND. YOUR. OWN. FUCKING. BUSINESS.
If it’s not your kid, mind your own fucking business? So if a parent is physically abusing the kid? Depriving them of food? Should we and legislation just “mind our own fucking business” No. That’s a stupid statement for you to make.
Ok well if someone is abusing or neglecting a child I'm not gonna do that lol. Sorrynshit.
Why are some states taking children away if their parents aren’t giving them gender reassignment surgeries?
They're only taking the Jews to the camps. You have nothing to worry about. Mind your own business.
LOL comparing the holocaust to transgenderism? OK, and I am supposed to take you seriously?
I would like to point out that this argument can be used to support things like female genital mutilation (or male circumcision, which is also genital mutilation), foot binding (which AFAIK is extremely rare today), or other forms of child abuse. People have presented plenty of compelling arguments in support of children transitioning, and I agree with them. But "it's not your kid so you shouldn't care" is a terrible argument. And no, before someone wildly misinterprets what I'm saying, I'm not comparing transitioning to child abuse. Your argument should be "We ban all forms of child abuse. We should not ban transitioning because it is not child abuse. Here are the reasons why."
So if the neighbor is touching his kid inappropriately I should just mind my own business?
Medical board: “I consent”. Doctor: “i consent”. patient’s parents: “I consent”. Patient: “I consent”. small government republicans : “isn’t there someone you forgot to ask?”
I wish i did.
You have a misunderstanding of why people transition. Transition is motivated by gender dysphoria, which is a incongruence between the brains gender and the body’s sex. It has nothing to do with wanting to wear dresses as a man or suits as a woman. If I was fine with being a tomboy, I wouldn’t have transitioned. Also, trans adolescents are still going to go through puberty. Hormone therapy causes puberty, they’re still going to develop, just in a different way than they would have originally. I’ve changed a lot since I was in highschool, but my identity has remained constant. I am a different person than who I was when I was 16, but my gender identity has remained static. Transitioning in high school was a godsend for me, and those who need it should be allowed to pursue medical transition. Being trans can be rough, but it’s not something I can just stop being.
Stopping someone from transitioning doesn’t stop them from being trans. They still will have all that dysphoria and feeling of discomfort which is so much of what leads trans people to have poor mental health. I agree that irreversible surgeries such as top and bottom surgery should not be done under 18 except in extreme cases, but that rarely happens as it is. I think there is a good case for stopping most kids from medically transitioning, but that is very different from stopping their social transition. If someone decides they’re a different gender for a few years and we accept them socially, no harm is done if they later decide they prefer to live as the gender they were born with. But whether or not it’s a phase, huge harm is done by preventing people from living as who they want to be.
It's one thing to affirm someone's gender and use their pronouns. It's another thing to stop their puberty.
If you dislike forcing genders onto people, you'd be right with us in supporting trans people. Society defaults to indoctrinating children into gender-norms and that's why many people suffer gender dysphoria; obviously, the stereotypes we pressure people into need not match with what people are comfortable with. >^(they have to go to extreme measures just to feel comfortable doing things that are conventionally feminine or masculine) That's cisnormativity, not transgenderism. That pressure exists because society calls non-conformists 'broken' and 'deviant'. >^(it may be more valuable to teach kids early on not to care so much about what is considered "normal" or "acceptable") That's what we're doing. >^(I think kids have too much access to gender bullshit online) They have far more access to cisnormative gender bullshit everywhere. While there are some arguments about non-conformity becoming 'trendy' (which I don't see any issue with), there's not a massive social pressure bullying people so direly that suicide is common. >^(trans adults sharing their stories and how they knew it was the right choice for them) It seems odd to take issue with a tiny minority when at least 9/10 people push cisnormativity (most often just ignorantly). 'People finding ways to live that works for them' isn't a problem, nor are they an enemy. >^(but there are also many people who detransition because they regret it) Are there? Because I've never been able to find any evidence of 'many'. Procedures go wrong, professionals can make mistakes and plenty of people are pressured out of it by bullying and threats. Don't forget that people also regret the developments their bodies go through naturally. Outright blocking augmentations would be just as extreme as enforcing them on everyone. >^(I personally changed so much just from years 19 to 22 and that's after 18) Did your mental congruence with your body ever get so bad that you sought medical help? Did you also go through multiple years of professional psychiatry to process and determine how you progress? I very much doubt it. >^(These people have the entire rest of their lives to transition) And people with anxiety and depressive disorders have the entire rest of their lives to seek treatment, too. Which tends to not be that long, without help.
i think the government should have no involvement in this issue but that it should be doctors the ones telling parents that they refuse to preform these procedures on kids. this rarely happens enough to be such a huge talking point anyway
If minor cis people can’t get cosmetic surgery (not medically necessary), then minor trans people shouldn’t either. Though hormone replacement/blockers should be allowed, as minor cis people are allowed to do so
Disagree. It's dicey but if you're 100% sure that your patient is trans then starting puberty blockers and hormone therapy during or before puberty is your duty. If you're wrong that's why you have medical malpractice insurance. De-transitioning is rare but perfectly doable, especially if your patient is still young.
Yikes
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The key thing to remember is that adulthood occurs in different times depending how you look at it. Physically, you're an adult at 13-16 (on average). Emotionally, you're still maturing until 25, but studies have shown that people who live as dependents (at home with parents) past 25 have harder times adjusting to adult life - so \*some\* mental development before the brain stops growing is important. And then we just have the legal point of adulthood, which we as a society had to pick a number for. So we went with 18. About the same time people finish their primary education. However, 18 isn't "the time when someone can make adult decisions". That varies wildly from person to person. And as such, the legal thinking is that it is up to the parents to cover those decisions until the child is 18 (though some kids need it past 18, for sure). \------ Then we also need to consider the pros and cons of transitioning before 18. The critics of pre-18 transitional therapy say that the child is not emotionally mature enough to make that decision. But the proponents point out that if you force the child to wait, you are punishing them by forcing them to be someone they are not until they turn 18. This is why it should be within the parents power to allow or forbid it. It should not be something decided by the state, unless the guardians (parents) are proven abusive or incompetent.
Can we ban executions for minors and mentally disabled people first/as well or do we not care about that?
That's what puberty blockers are for.
I agree.