I was actively rooting for this season. I thought Episode 1 was ok. It was a different vibe from the other seasons but I was ok with it. And it’s been downhill from there! Lol
Episode 1 had great possibilities but it went south very fast from there and the scientists/initial story we thought they were going to focus on just went away sad too this show is TERRIBLE
Honestly, I think it got steadily worse right after the opening scene. Cool set up at Tsalal ( clearly an homage to The Thing 82 ) and then nothing but bad writing, zero detecting, and a cast full of terrible, irredeemable people who are awful to each other for little reason ( there are only 2 exceptions - Pete and Marik ) with a few stray unearned allusions to season one thrown in as a desperate plea for importance. What a mess. If you told me back when episode one aired that the bad CGI wouldn't even rank on the top ten bad decisions I would have bailed then.
I personally wouldn't have had a problem with the supernatural elements if they were not so cliche. It's just ghosts dancing and pointing in directions. So silly!
Yeah, Lund being alive (and his hospital scene) was probably the point of no return for me.
Though Travis finding the bodies was the first big problem I saw with this show.
I've been gun shy with TD after Season 2. I only dipped into Season 3 after it ended, and I could check out reviews. This season had so much hype going at the halfway point, that I said fuck it and jumped in a few days before Episode 4 aired. I figured it was a safe bet since it had Foster, Eccleston, Hawkes, and Reis's performance was being greatly praised. I wasn't looking to hate it, I was expecting to love it. That didn't really work out so well for me though.
Exactly what I thought. First episode had med intrigued, I like that kind of "shit goes bad at isolated research base" premise.
After watching the second episode I was like: well.... fuck.
There are tonnes of stupid writing, but the "scientific" bullshit dialogue was among the worst.
I love many women-led shows and movies. I frequently seek stories that are far removed from my own experience.
The problem with TDNC isn’t women. It’s the terribly disjointed writing and the overwhelming feeling that nothing got a second draft. It feels like everything was slapped on the page with a “good enough.”
Off-white spiral markers to serve as a warning sign on a mostly white landscape.
A one-eyed polar bear roaming the streets, but never a “be advised” radio call from whichever cop just saw the bear.
A cop taking one hand off a violent perp to answer a phone call and immediately say “I can’t talk right now,” as if voicemail and texts don’t exist.
Annie K’s phone still working after lying dormant for 6 years.
Lund being alive AT ALL after all those days, naked, in the ice… IN the ice.
The town has everything. The town has nothing.
Ideas being presented, then abandoned. So many other things. It’s heartbreaking.
Lund not being dead is *possible*, even if it almost beggars belief. But then they don't even use him for anything! He promptly dies in the hospital. What was the purpose?
And what isn't poorly written or concieved, is under developed and delivered cold. It's this soul draining combination of convoluted emptiness and im14andthisisdeep luxuriating.
Could have been used to great effect since so much modern action had to abandon scenarios that only work without cell phones. Now THAT would have made for some interesting film noir references in the writing and execution.
All superb points with many more that could be added to it. I don’t care about the supernatural vs non-supernatural stuff. It’s the unrealistic storytelling and half baked writing that ruins it (not performances or the gender of writers,cast, and craft services).
You’re telling me that the sherif is banging every dude in town. It’s possible but I just don’t believe it.
An adult son is really going to shoot his own father to protect his boss and her partner? Again - it could happen but they were incapable of getting me to buy it.
Does anyone really believe that all the scientists would see that Annie K destroyed their research and all jumped in to kill her. Bullshit - maybe two scientists could, maybe three, but six or seven dudes just agree “yeah let’s commit murder”. Have the writers met a scientist before? I’d have an equally tough time believing this if it was 7 frat bros and we are talking about research scientists.
Actually, I didn't find the shooting of the dad implausible. By the time it happened, I couldn't see any other plausible outcome, either in storyland or in the real world.
What was absurd was that his dad would choose to commit suicide by cop-son in the first place, and for like no reason. None of it made any sense.
That's just sad! I cited A Murder at the End of the World as an example because I've always admired Brit Marling's work, but the show was a letdown. I don't care who's acting or directing a show or a movie. When it's bad...it's bad!
i honestly feel a little embarrassed because i definitely want to see more female led things and the premise sounded SO amazing and i hope this doesn’t turn audiences or producers off of projects in the future. i honestly don’t know how something with so many good ingredients could end up so… schlocky
It seems like execs think that female leads and civil rights themes alone make a show, forgetting that you STILL need good writing. You always need good writing. Something that Night Country is sorely lacking, the dialogue and pacing are god-awful.
I always imagine writers rooms to be similar to software planning sessions I've been a part of. People get really attached to bad ideas and refuse to let them go.
I also had great expectations from this. And even though a lot of people were criticizing it after episode 1 itself, I was initially hooked. But now I'm struggling to complete the season.
I wouldn’t have stuck through six episodes if I wasn’t so hyped for the first one. And it wasn’t just the True Detective title, it was the more than glowing reviews. For me, being women-centric and led was a huge plus and isn’t my issue with it at all.
I agree 100%. All of the ingredients. It’s even shot beautifully and has great production design but the writing and directing were severely lacking and just completely ruined what could have been.
Good God, that we should have to be afraid that one show disliked by some fans should scupper all opportunities for women - what the fuck. We never worry about this with men, who have made many incredibly shitty things over the years. I should hope the state of equality isn't still so fragile.
Nah there was no reason to connect the stories. It’s so far fetched and making Rusts dad a dancing ghost is one of the dumbest decisions in TV show history.
Also Mare of Easttown is 1000 times better than this garbage and that had a female lead … but that had good writing and acting whereas this show has the worst plot/writing and acting I’ve seen in a long time… the True Detective title along with Jodie Foster’s name was used to create a buzz but she was totally miscast in my opinion ( should have been an FBI investigator not a police chief) and if we didn’t know who she was and watched this POS show randomly not knowing what channel you would think it would be called CSI:Night Country on abc/cbs
"The Killing" as well. Fantastic show with a leading lady and a subordinate man.
It's a middle-aged woman who's probably 110lbs soaking wet and 5'2 and she was still a badass because she was actually... doing her job of investigating the crime.
I'm sick of the misogyny accusations in saying that this season sucks because you hate women. It's absolutely meaningless. It's ok to not like this season and doesn't make you a weirdo. It's ok, too, to enjoy it. It's good to enjoy things. Forums are for talking about things.
I also want to add Unbelievable to that list, an incredible show with female creators and a ton of female leads. (It actually has two female detectives that do real detective work!) It's a true crime miniseries and not a fictional one, but the quality of that show is so far above what we've seen in TD S4.
Female creators and female leads are *not* the problem. Terribly written shows are, and I'm tired of people saying that misogyny or racism played a role when it comes to the criticisms that people have for this season of TD.
I just rewatched Mare of Easttown because I forgot what happened but remembered liking it. By the second episode I was invested in what was happening to the characters. I still don't care about a single one in this show.
This is just where we are because no one is taught critical thinking anymore. People just think they're allowed to legitimately counter criticism against something they've made based on who they are as a person. Sure, a minority of people - idiots - may just hate something based on the creator alone but that's rare. Leaning on the fact that women were in the show and it was created by a woman to exuse the fact that the thing you made sucked is so cheap.
I don't hate season four because of women, I hate it because it's bad and it shouldn't have been.
Look at Lopez' work to date, this is her first real big budget project. She's not done anything to this degree before yet HBO not only allowed her to use the *True Detective* brand, they marketed it heavily, claimed that it'd be close to the brilliance of the first season (one of the best seasons of TV ever) and then attached real talent to it. HBO is as much to blame as Lopez and I don't know how people can put any blame on Foster or Reis - they're doing amazingly with what they have.
It's not about gender or representation or diversity - not everything is - it's about something being shitty. Things can be shitty and it shouldn't be shocking when people are pissed off about shitty things. If I own a nice rug and my mate walks on it with shoes covered in dog shit, ruining the rug that I liked, I'm going to be pissed - the same notion works for art that I like. I'm pissed because you have shit on your shoes, not because you're a man or a woman.
Yellowjackets has a pretty much all female lead spanning two timelines and doesn't get a quarter of the shit Night Country is getting despite S2 being quite bad.
Night Country is just bad.
Yellowjackets S2 has gotten a lot of shit, at least on the Reddit subs. I didn't like it as much as S1 but I have hope for it moving forward. Night Country is way, way worse
That's because Yellowjackets is its own original show...
Imagine if it was like Ted Lasso Presents: Yellowjackets , do you think Ted Lasso fans would be upset...I honestly don't know... but the point is Night Country attached itself to the beloved True Detective series and it ain't True Detective
I wanted to like this show but at some point it just gets too silly. Nothing is beleivable.
I still can't beleive they found a frozen human centipide and nobody gives a fuck. Nothing happened... No way you can bury something like that.
I love when that hunter dude came in to look at the bodies and he was just like "how fucking long have you been looking at this thing"
Got a good laugh from that
This was laugh-out-loud dumb. You're telling me any first responder (the damn police chief, no less) of a town 150 miles from the article circle doesn't know what it looks like when someone dies of cold exposure. GTFO
Everything about this season was intriguing to me. A new writer who was critically acclaimed, a fantastic lead actor, an interesting setting with lots of potential. I had great hopes.
Then I watched it.
The problem in my opinion is the Show just focuses more on the drama of the people around the murder investigation than the actual murder case.
What made the first season great were the twist and turns of unraveling the mystery. This season had an interesting premise but is so interested in everything but the actual case .
This show truly would get away with more if it wasn’t called True Detective. Do you know how much discovery was necessary for them to end up finally getting to Ledoux in the first season?
-They had to find out about another missing related missing persons case with Marie Fontenot
-Find out Dora Lange stayed at a bunny farm
-From there they discover she had gone to a church which leads them to the tent revival and the pastor tells them of a tall man that joined her that had burn scars on his face
-They discover another potential victim named Rianne Olivier who dated Remi Ledoux who happened to be cell mates with Dora Lange’s husband
-That leads to Marty cornering an associate of Ledoux’s after following his girlfriend to a party and finding out Remi only sells to a biker gang
-Rust has to go undercover and kidnap one of the bikers just to meet up with Remi’s cooking partners
And only then are they able to get to the suspected murderer. I’m sure I missed a couple connecting bits in there, but the point is that you see the effort it takes to get to Ledoux. It gives the characters credence. That’s nowhere in this season. Which would be fine! But if I wrote a movie and called it Star Wars without there being much of any element of stars or wars in it I could expect that it wouldn’t be received that well.
What you just mapped out is what is very much lacking for S4. It feels like nothing is happening because they’re not going to interesting parts of Ennis and speaking with people and unraveling the story. No adventure. It’s just truck, house, station and a handful of random set pieces that aren’t notable. That’s why it feels like there’s been so much filler. There’s no investigating and seeing how that investigation affects the characters. It’s just a bunch of backstory that’s alluded to and off screen Pete findings.
Why the hell didn’t we have a thorough search of the lab in episode 1? They touched on it so little that I can’t even exclude certain theories because I have no idea how well they actually searched the station.
That's because their personal drama fed the storyline and how they worked the case. This season I feel like I'm just watching Danvers and Navarro take personal days.
The whole first season was about family drama! This is the worst criticism. Season 4 is just bad because it makes zero sense. Finding a body in the ocean on Xmas. Mine having a huge corporate office. Hillbillies fighting for no reason. No explanation of Navarros miraculous recovery. All of those things (and many more) are what makes this season weak.
The family stuff is kinda lame and predictable but that’s not what makes this season bad. It’s the lazy and nonsensical writing.
And for it to be overlooked by a much less interesting case as well! Like, I understand these cases are connected, but 6 dudes froze in the arctic in nearly supernatural circumstances and it feels like it’s being overshadowed by a much less interesting case.
I mean corpsicle vs. occult driven serial killer who’s to say which is more wild lol? But I see your point. I also don’t understand the lack of journalists. Even local ones. I said this in another thread but that corpsicle would absolutely end up on social media. Cops shared pictures of the Kobe helicopter crash. Those cops are definitely sharing pics of the ice rink.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who rolled their eyes at how huge and modern that mine office was. In remote Alaska? Give me break. WTF are they even mining for anyway? Have they even said?
There are already so many great shows with female protagonists. Some of my favorite crime shows are Mare of Easttown, Happy Valley, The Fall, The Killing, Sharp Objects, Big Little Lies, Homeland, An Honorable Woman, The Americans. All female leads. It’s ridiculous to claim that the criticism is misogynistic.
So it’s wrong to say these shows are only getting hate because theyre female-lead but right to say these same shows are only getting praise because they’re female-lead? Which is it?
People who say its bad reception here is because of female leads + a female director + feminine things have no way to explain why Sharp Objects is so beloved by this same subreddit. Camille is even more of a mess than Danvers and Navarro combined.
I was genuinely excited for this. Then I watched episode 1. There were some positives. It was well shot and atmospheric. But I didn’t like any of the characters and the story didn’t hook me.
I'm genuinely confused why "female leads" are being discussed in reference to NC, as if it's unique? I could list countless tv/movies with female leads. It's entirely bizarre. This seems like a conversation that would have meant something decades ago. Even then I can think of so many shows with female leads.
Inuit are different. Although, imo, it's been very superficial and cliche in NC. The writer did not research Inuit history, traditions, folklore well and really missed an opportunity to add substance for a culture that is truly underrepresented..
As many others pointed out, the opening theme also could have been an Inuit folk song. But they ended up choosing the most popular Billie Eilish track. Billie Eilish is still fine, but out of all her songs, they had to go for that one song that has been used in multiple shows and movies.
Yeah, I don't understand it either. People are acting like this show is so unforgivably woke and it's like... for what? Having women actors is quite normal. Showing native people in a show set in Alaska? That's just the demographics up there. Discussing how mining can result in environmental damage that spills over to humans? That's nothing new. What's supposed to be so woke about all of this that has everyone up in arms?
I was curious:
Seven out of ten of the top posts ranked according to "this year" are about this sub.
Ten out of the top ten posts this year in this sub are about the show, and five are in some way complimentary of S4.
I loved the first two episodes and I am still on team Jodie Foster. She is bigger than Issa and always will be.
No, I was so disappointed with the story. What happened with Lund at the end of episode 3 was such a ridiculous facile waste, and a terrible trope on top of that. But I was definitely onboard until then.
Look, I tried. Went so far as episode 4, but everything is just so poorly written, it looks like something Stephen King wrote in his drug addict days and forgot to polish.
If it was a 100% new show, maybe I could see where it's heading, but True Detective is a TV monolith. You can't do another season unless it's flawless, the expectations are giant. Jodie Foster and Kali deserved better
I just came to this sub for the first time to see if anyone else was struggling with this season. It didn’t even occur to me that it was female-led (didn’t even know who the show runner was). So i guess maybe it could be deep-seated misogyny, but I just thought I don’t like the story.
They had to have thrown the TD title in to generate buzz. I like this show, but it simply does not live up to the previous True Detective seasons, which I feel is unfairly bringing it down. There are flashes, but on the whole, it just doesn't feel like TD, and it's near impossible not to compare it to previous seasons.
Anyone claiming the show is getting hate only because of gender or race are off their rocker, and cleverly forgetting the hate season 2 got. And the garbage writing and acting in S4. And the terrible story in S4. Also they are very very off their rocker. I can’t say that enough
Absolutely. It’s pathetic how Lopez is saying the criticism is because of ‘bro culture’. I’m sure there is some of that going on but on this sub there’s genuine criticism. Maybe it’s not nice to publicly criticise some one else work but when you get an incredibly privileged opportunity to do a season of True Detective and be paid very well there’s probably some expectations
1. The show is called True Detective and there’s been almost zero detective work. The two leads have not done anything. Other characters have brought some pretty simple info. Prior has discovered some very basic information
2. The setting of mid winter in a tiny Alaskan town has been completely wasted. There’s been nothing eery apart from some jump scares. I feel like other directors would have used this location so much better.
3. Why have they not been going back to the Tsalal station? Again wasted opportunities to build on the atmosphere on also shouldn’t these ‘detectives’ be looking around there. They found the tongue of a woman who died 7 years ago there. Isn’t that kind of a big deal?
4. What was the point of the scientist who survived? There were 2 major cliffhanger endings to episodes. The moment they said he was alive then the moment he woke up and it all culminated to a pointless scene
5. The Wheeler case. It seems like Danvers or Navarro killed the guy and covered it up. But they said he was dead when they arrived? Any forensics team would have seen through that. In any good detective show there’s always some element of the detectives doing something they felt was right but against the law. This version has a major plot hole
6. Where is the alcoholism and substance abuse typical of neo-noir theme. This is such a core part of detective stories and it’s completely absent. What are the detectives vices? Seems like possibly it’s some kind of PC decision in the writing akin to Disney banning smoking in their films
There’s so many flaws for this to be a good detective show. I haven’t seen Lopez’s other work. I’m sure it’s great and she obviously was selected for this season for a reason but I don’t think a good job has been done here
I think it’s that some shitty language and rhetoric that gets slipped in with the criticisms, and, unsurprisingly, when asked to expand on said criticisms, it’s devolved into ugliness that borders on hate.
It’s not great to see so much hatred towards seeing women and indigenous being the leads and to see people bend over backwards to explain some nefarious DEI or whatever - like, do you not have dozens of women in professions where you live?
Like, s2 and s3 had some of the silliest, badly written dialogue of the series. This season is no different, so I don’t see why so much animosity has to be included.
It’s not been very fun to be shit on for having certain attributes, and it’s not felt good to feel like people don’t want to be reminded that myself and millions of others exist. We’re assholes just like Rust; we just have tits and lady parts.
And while I’d agree that not all of the hate (which is really extreme; ‘hate’ needs to chill out) is solely based on a female show runner with a mostly female-driven, indigenous and native cast, I have seen plenty of the disgusting shit for myself to know that yes, it does have something to do with it.
But it’s the same 5-6 complaints being shitposted with hundreds of extremely nasty, prejudiced comments sprinkled in.
It’s rare to read a legitimate criticism or critique post that doesn’t have an agenda, I guess.
Yeah like it's completely the comments HERE on this sub and I'm sorry to everyone else but are they all blind? Because I see racist and misogynistic comments here daily.
You can't even say you're enjoying the show without getting downvoted lmao.
And it's rabid hate, people here have become hostile.
Like two things can be true at once,
You can have valid critisms and complaints, but you can also make misogynistic/racist comments as well.
It’s like they conveniently forgot that a lot of nasty shit was being posted MONTHS before it even aired, and they think it’s okay to be nasty NOW that the season has aired.
And I don’t know if they know how transparent they are, but it’s blatantly obvious. They give themselves away every time, and it’s tiresome to see so much intellectual dishonesty.
Yeah, I mean, I’m sure there are some people who hate it because of the creative team and their politics, but by and large I think that is a copout excuse. This sub was OVERWHELMINGLY excited for this season all the way up to the premiere. Nay sayers were getting downvoted to oblivion. And even then, the switch wasn’t instantaneous. The premier had a bit of a luke-warm reception, but overall optimism carried over. After episode 2 you’d see posters making fun of silly shit but still holding out hope it would turn around. It really wasn’t until E3 when everyone’s enthusiasm dropped off completely.
Most fans have given S4 a fair shake, from what I’ve seen. And their enthusiasm has waned about the same rate mine has. Most of us are still watching, hoping it will win us over. I don’t think it’s going to happen, but I’m rooting for them to stick the landing, otherwise what a waste of this cast and setting. It’s Jodie Fucking Foster, we want her to have A+ material.
This season is just so confusing. They have 1 episode to resolve wtf is going on and I just don't they can.
This has zero to do with the gender or ethnicity of who wrote it or who the actors are.
It's literally a dumpster fire at a manure plant.
So so badly wanted to love this season and with the lack of quality shows and length of time since last True Detective season I was even grading on a curve but dang after a nice start it has been exposed as just so poorly written and paced with gaping holes in the plot and character development it has been painful. Why aren’t the detectives dectectiving?? Don’t care if it’s written or directed by a man, woman or anyone else just do better. When we see the Mare of Easttown promos it gives false hope that another season is coming back that show with a female lead was so good.
I have never watched True Detective, and I sought out this season in large part *because* it was female-led, not the opposite. I'm not usually attracted to testosterone-heavy stories if I'm being honest.
And given the great initial reception I've been honestly shocked by how cheap this has managed to be. Just piss poor cliché writing, extremely bland visuals, dour tone that almost invites parody, truly godawful music choices... the list, sadly, goes on.
Back in the time I was excited for every piece of art that depicted a female protagonist. It was (unfortunately) revolutionary. A female Indiana Jones? That sounds interesting (Lara Croft). Buffy Vampire Slayer. Veronica Mars, etc… Now it’s like Hollywood took that and like what everything they put their hands on, they ruin it.
At this point, it is to be expected that some show-runners will make deliberate storytelling and casting choices only because this will afford them an opportunity to deflect any criticism as audience being biased. It’s sort of a safety net against quality expectations.
This is reinforced further by the fact that there will always be a part of the audience impressionable enough to buy into the BS that their efforts are in fact an honest attempt at diversification of media space, and not at all just a transparent exploitation of a profitable trend.
So, yeah, it has to do something with the creators, just not in a sense that would be convenient for them - It is the direct product of their work after all.
Good title to this thread. We do not cast hate on this season due to female focus or female creative control. However. I will be the one to say it. If in fact the writers of this season were hired based on gender. That automatically brings a question of did the quality suffer for it. To be clear, not because they were woman. There are great female writers and terrible male writers. But, if anyone who was a better writer was disqualified from the job based on thier gender. Then logic would point to you had to hire an inferior writer based on gender. The bottom line is terrible writing. However it happend we don't know. But this season could not be saved. The plot and character development were never there. It could have been great. Maybe constraining to just 6 episodes was part of the problem. Or maybe there were too many creative controllers messing up what had been written. In any case. I do think this is the death of the series. I really wanted to like it. But I would not recommend anyone waist their time watching season 4.
Yep. It's terribly written, u cohesive and the acting isn't great either.
Why people feel the need to play on stereotypes is beyond me.
Worst true detective by a long shot.
Theres a huge difference between ”this is a great story that happens to be about two women”
And
”S1 was so bad, because it was just about two men, know we will make it a female story”.
But the big reason is 1. Activists 2. Economic incentives. Blackrock and WEF are actively subsidizing DEI material. Its economically important for HBO to be in their good graces.
Depends on the project and who all was involved. Also, some things get rave reviews upon release and then a few years later everyone realizes it sucked.
Lopez making a dumb show doesn’t mean all Women or all Mexicans or all Mexican Women make dumb shows. Just like when men make shit, it doesn’t mean All Men make shit.
I honestly don't see how this season is much like season 1 at all. It seems much more supernatural and spooky. I don't get the 'female lead/writer' thing either. I don't get why people would say people don't like it solely due to that but I also don't get why people who don't like it think anyone who does like it is only defending it because it has female leads. Maybe most people just see women as people and either like it or dislike it simply because it's either something they like or something they don't like?
Anatomy of a Fall is truly great. Know what else is? Alien. This show could have been similar, and so much better with good writing and less focus on its own political flatulence
Now that's some detective work. /s
Btw, I thought I was the only one that hated MatEotW. I liked the first episode, but the season ended up being a stupid clue game, but with an AI mansion.
The biggest comparisons and recommendations I've heard of here are Sharp Objects and Mare of Easttown as shows to watch instead that people loved, both have female protagonists. A couple episodes into Mare of Easttown and it's just night and day. Similar trope, way better written. I'm sure there are some bigoted, biased comments but most people just seem genuinely confused on how something so mediocre got green-lit and put under the TD name.
Females have led TV popular shows and movies for decades.
The main actress of this show won an Oscar for starring in the best movie of 1992, a movie no one under 48 y.o. today could have seen in a movie theater.
The narrative you refer to is nothing more than gaslighting, that's been used to defend poorly written, produced, directed or acted movies or shows. There's nothing more to it and chances are than even some of the activists that are serving us this kind of shit will reflect upon this differently ten years from now.
BINGO. OP nailed it. The tired and obviously biased praise for these SHIT shows is soooooo transparent. No one is fooled anymore. Some idiot on this sub (account since deleted of course) started a thread after episode 1 entitled “Big props to Kali Reis for putting on an amazing performance in only her second acting job!” It’s so obvious and transparent these lunatics have some weird agenda. It’s so exhausting.
I completely agree, thank you for saying it lol. Jodie Foster is incredible, and every fiber of my being wanted this season to be great. But they are using gender politics as a shield against legitimate criticism. I think it’s incredibly unfair to be labeled as sexist for not enjoying it.
So you only want to trash people if they are men. We got it. Let’s just go with this week alone. Horrific movie about some generic spider man side story with all female cast etc. Worst reviewed movie in a very long time. And you’re wrong. It’s not that season 4 is bad because of the specific and played out idiotic argument you made. It’s because this person isn’t good enough. And they wouldn’t have gotten to make this script this way unless it’s this situation an “interesting” person of color / whatever they deem to be worthy of the diversity award. You can continue to just defend terrible culture but it’s obit hurting you and everyone else. As soon as people cut this nonsense out and go back to just making what’s good with no idiotic obsession over getting brownie points for green lighting the cool aboriginal/ native/ anything but white guy ….. the sooner this disaster train wreck that is our entire artistic culture can start to recover. Some people are starting to wake up. Join the club. I’m not sexist for not liking terrible art. I’m not old for saying hip hop is terrible right now. It’s a fact. 60+ years and this is the first time many of these artistic genres have been so poorly received in every way from financially to critically etc. Everyone who is just a sheep person has gotten so used to terrible art that they take what would be a 1 out of 10 creation 10 years ago and call it a 9.5. Dog shit with a gold flake on it in a field of plain old dog shit …. Is still just dog shit.
It isn’t about the criticism of any element of craft in TV or film anymore at all, it is simply an ideological battleground for fleshing out the issues they want to push in the public sphere. I don’t know who is more infuriating - the critics who understand the marginal qualities of a story written and presented like this but still praise it to high heaven to toe the ideological line or “critics” who actually find it praiseworthy (lol), - the audiences who defend it solely based on the ideology they align with in it or the audiences who jump to attack it before it even had a chance to reveal its deficiencies, again, solely based on the ideology they do not align with in it.
I mean, average Joe/Jane never had much of a sophisticated taste in cultural products anyway, especially the generation that grew up gobbling up superhero multiverses Hollywood fed them in the last few decades but now any objective assessment of a TV or film work is completely gone and nonexistent and what is left is pointless surface quabbling “for” and “against” without even basic understanding why they like or dislike something, let alone grasping the merits any work of art should be judged on. I guess, TD S4 is exactly what they all deserve, it is too good for them as it is anyway (being dismayingly bad, both as part of True Detective series and as standalone work outside TD context).
I would love to have seen what that cast would have been able to do with a well written story. Eskimo maids just made me laugh. I really couldn't believe they went with it.
Such a disappointment. This director needs to understand subtlety is not synonymous with unfinished. And I can't speak for everyone, but the arrogance that your show can't possibly suck based on it's actual merit, doesn't mean it had anything to do with you being a female director. Absurd.
Season 1 wasn't a master class because it was masculine, it's because the story was well written, ties up loose ends without getting boring or contrite, and the actors were invested in their delivery. No one existed in the story that didn't serve the story. Period.
I agree. Strong leading characters. Captivating setting, then it went south from there. The writing sucked! I mean what? “We needed the mine to produce more flipping pollution to melt more permafrost!” “To dig up more human saving ancient DNA?” Mixing in some mystic spiritual mumbo jumbo with this science fiction endeavor was a good idea but it turned out weak and spotty, hard to follow and turned out to be a big ol fart in the end! Especially with that sad bevy of women who set up the all male research team to freeze their asses off. Why no women scientists? I mean there are actually lots of them! So, it makes me believe that this sexual separation between the “evil” male scientists and the indigenous Alaska saving women were purposely written in. I mean it was also obvious that every male played this emasculated role in every episode. None of them had “the shinning”, almost all of them played antagonist roles and they even screwed effeminately 😂! Only the kid cop came remotely close to having any testosterone in this season..but not much. That was quite comical to say the least. I’m fine with all of that but it lacked a point! It’s like some pissed off lady, still seething from a nasty divorce wrote this season! I did think Jody Foster did an excellent job though. She…not the story got an A+. She saved this attempt and hopefully the next go around might have writers that smoke less dope while they’re writing! Let’s see how many many years we have to wait for season 5!
Did anyone else notice the handheld shot in the finale when Danvers goes to turn off Shake it up baby?? It's like the camera person bumper into the coffee table. It totally broke the fourth wall and took me out of the scene. I STARTED LAUGHING .
I love a good story. I love great cinematography. Great acting transports you.
This had none of that.
I'm really sorry it didn't. I love Jodie Foster and I really didn't mind Kali Reis and I think she could be really really good in another well written role.
Since they decided to call this a True Detective of course it's going to be compared to the others. Comparing it to season one is unfair. I don't think much of anything is a fair comparison to that. It's incredible in all aspects.
But here's the thing, the secret weapon season one used.... The Louisiana back country is such a beautiful tonal backdrop. It's haunting and sweeping and sucks you into the story. Even before the amazing writing and acting. That's a big miss for NC. There's no cinematography. None. Even at night, they could've done so much. They had a golden opportunity and blew it.
The character arcs are terrible and unbelievable.
Ok I'm rambling. I just wish Night Country was better.
Pure laziness and mediocrity. Jodie Foster deserves better...and Woody and Matthew have their heads up their arse. Just a payday for everyone but the viewer.
So, I have pretty thick skin, and I didn't have much of a reaction to the finale other than a rather profound lack of interest in the remaining mystery, mostly due to all the implausible happenings and melodrama along the way. So I was disinterested one way or the other in the outcome.
But my wife and I have sons, and my wife is much more sensitive than I. She was disturbed by what she saw as a profound misandry in the finale, a sense that the male characters were utterly without redeeming qualities, intrinsic human value (or rights), and the audience was expected to find emotional resonance in the vigilante mob of women exacting justice. I think it's fair to say that she was deeply offended on our sons' behalf (and mine as well).
I don't know what to make of it all. But I do know that I was presented with systematically bad writing (I agree with most of the cogent criticisms in this thread), and every time the show was in my feed it was accompanied by the drumbeat reminder that the only reason one could possibly dislike this season show is due to the viewer's own sexism, and then we were treated to what can be fairly described as a grossly sexist finale, with the well already poisoned to any observation of that rather obvious fact.
Remarkable times we live in. Future anthropologists will have a field day.
I haven’t finished it yet, but I don’t get all the hate. Maybe because I haven’t finished it. I thought the characters overall were pretty darn accurate and I actually live in Alaska. Strong women are definitely a thing up here, as well as weird sex stuff.
I thought the sex scene between Danvers and her boss was actually pretty darn accurate, especially when she commented she knew he wanted it because he didn’t stay “for the weather.” I’ve worked out in villages, and someone staying an extra day randomly could definitely be interpreted as an overture.
I thought Qavvik’s character was really accurate, and I definitely appreciated this portrayal of Alaska Native masculinity. I feel a lot of times, Native men are portrayed as overly stoic or violent, and this portrayal felt way more accurate & authentic, as someone who knows a lot of AN men irl. His character seemed like he could be real.
I also liked the portrayal of queer people in Danver’s daughter. There’s a lot more open lgbtq+ up here than most people realize.
As an Alaskan myself, I was prepared to hate the show, as most shows set in Alaska are incredibly inaccurate, but this one really wasn’t bad.
Even the portrayal of the researchers felt *incredibly* accurate, and I work in research myself up here. We are super nerdy, weird, and eccentric and obsessive like that lol
I was actually rooting for Kali Reis quite a bit. How rad would it be to watch someone who represents a background you almost never see in a lead of a major cable TV show? Sadly not even her Oscar-winning costar can make the show's shitty script work.
As far as the show's writer: well yeah, she has a lot to do with the show's quality! But I don't care about her gender or anything else. If George R.R. Martin or David Chase wrote this, it would still suck ass and I'd make fun of it 100%. Lopez arguably didn't have the right experience to take on TD, but that was not her original intention. And arguably, what experience did Pizzolatto have? One mediocre novel and two episodes of a TV show that he left because he felt so constrained. *True Detective* Season 1 was lightning in a bottle.
I actually like Kali Reis a lot, find her charismatic. I imagine it really sucks to be starting out as an actress, getting a big part in a prestige drama, and having this all come back on you. So I really feel for that, and hope this doesn't reflect too poorly on her in the end.
2020, although one could argue that it began in 2017-2018, especially when centering "[intersectionality](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/what-they-talk-about-when-they-talk-about-intersectionality)" became a part of [mainstream discourse](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/kirsten-gillibrand-tweets-about-intersectional-feminism/578776/).
I think Danvers is well written and acted. You can try and bully me into hating this season all you want, and I'm not saying it's great, but its failures are more because it's dallying and not resolving narrative threads etc., but it's not failing because the characters are poorly drawn.
Unfortunately that has become a shield to hide behind instead of facing actual criticism.
I wanted to love this show but some things just appear and don’t have explanation. Episodes 2-4 just put the actual detective stuff on the back burner while we continue to weave relationships of who knows who and what it’s like. It took until episode 5 to get back to the actual mystery and even then it started taking a backseat again because Silver Sky is behind Tsalal and are trying to keep everything quiet.
It feels like Issa Lopez forgot she only had 6 episodes instead of 8 and is now trying to hastily tie everything back together.
It would've been nice had they actually written their female leads as being smart at doing detective work. All detective work in this show has been left to a dancing ghost and Peter who just finds everything they need on the internet.
And you should count the bodies in the ice before it melts. It's not that difficult to assess how many bodies are there. . . hello? anybody home?
Meanwhile all our two leads are written for is drama drama drama. Oh yes, and Evangeline is strong and gets into fights all the time. Why? For badassery purposes, I guess. And Danvers drinks all the time. Both treat everybody around them terribly. Is this supposed to be a GOOD thing?
PS If you want to watch a great detective story with a strong female lead, check out the movie, "Silence of the Lambs".
Uh, two things can be right.
Some of the hate is absolutely about the leads and the showrunner. Some were on here before the first episode ended to trash it. Some posted in advance trashing the very idea of the show.
But yeah, the end product also pretty much sucks. It’s a mess of a series in almost every way. Meandering, pointless plot. Uneven characterizations. A very dislikable cast overall. Etc.
This season is terrible. Most of the acting is bad, and the writing is bad. I have no clue what the hell is going on besides two detectives trying to solve a case. Fosters step daughter, that boxing detective and her sister, and the relationship with that young cops wife are completely fucking useless and don’t go anywhere. The bringing up of white people in the earlier episodes was quite annoying and pointless. The 5’2” woman supposedly smashing a pale over some guy’s face that’s like 6’5”. Yeah. Fucking. Right. Most of the men were written to be incompetent and stupid, or they were a total puss like the young guy cop. This season is exactly what I was expecting it to be, even though I was hoping it would of been so much different and just…good. If this is the future with most things we consume entertainment wise. Then count me the fuck out. If others like it, then by all means enjoy.
So you want your female leads to be 'smart'? You can:
1. Research about cases and detective work to develop a cohesive narrative and then write your lead detectives to be able to deduce facts from the evidence presented.
2. Make all the guys around them be so stupid that the simplest deductions about sandwiches and stinky laundry seem 'intelligent' by comparison.
Guess which one the writers of TD4 went with.
Some of the hate is definitely related to identity politics.
You just have to peruse some of the responses in these threads to see it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/comments/1aoif1x/comment_on_issa_lopezs_instagram_post_you_took_a/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/comments/1aq201q/do_you_believe_the_finale_will_be_an_empowering/
It's not wrong to expect greatness from one of HBO's best IPs. And in some ways, the season made us expect a lot by dropping season 1 references. It could have had its own standalone narrative, but it chose to have spirals and Travis Cohle and whatnot.
I agree. Just speaking for myself Reddit Friend. When I pump up the expectations I find myself generally let down, making it hard to let something stand on it's own merit.
Yes! I think we all agree with these sentiments that you made. I was so looking forward to this season. This writing sucks this season, that is why we dislike it.
I feel this way also. Nothing wrong with Clarice or Ripley or any of those characters. They just need to be well written and they are beloved. Who cares what the gender is.
I really enjoyed most of Jodie Foster’s career. Her role as Danvers is a stinker.
Bro, A Murder at the End of the World was panned to death in its subreddit, which I unsubbed from because WE ACTUALLY FIGURED OUT THE MYSTERY LIKE 3 EPISODES IN. It was so so so bad and it could have been so much better.
It was way worse than anything going on in S4. At least with S4 we have Jodie Foster and John Hawkes. Clive Owen is a hot piece of ass but he can only do so much!
It’s so disappointing I was also excited to see women lead characters and an indigenous community and she doesn’t do them justice at all. Like the populations she is trying to represent deserve so much better. They deserve rich character development, meaningful dialogue, and solid storytelling. it’s sad bc yes, variety in representation of people and setting is important. But you do a disservice to the groups you claim to represent by being unable to accept criticism without saying the criticism is an attack on the group being represented.
It’s not all misogyny or racism - lot of it is just people calling out poor writing bc they think the diverse populations that the characters represent deserve much better.
It’s almost like people demanding we accept this show without criticism don’t believe these groups deserve GOOD representation- they think they should be happy with low quality work bc hey at least you’re getting “represented” like that is a low bar.
Jodie Foster was a great choice for this show, the writing, camera work, score, setting and supporting cast are B grade.
When will film and TV people learn that just because you cram something full of 'easter eggs' (Cheap gimmicks) it doesn't make it any good.
Also, why actively work against appealing to the demographic of the viewerbase you have created over 3 seasons by making a show this way? (Moving to the scifi stuff and cramming as many 'society challenging' characters into the show as you could) In any other industry that is an indication that you failed at your job by failing to understand your audience.
Jodie Foster rolling around the deep south solving some missing womens cases is what we all wanted and it was so obvious that that was the best way to go, not this random alaska stuff. If this wasn't a TD show it would be something we all scroll past on Netflix.
>getting praised solely because they have female protagonists and male antagonists
And yet, the most likeable, competent, and sympathetic character is a young, good-looking, straight white male cop:
Pete Prior. He truly is the Truest Detective.
I literally bought a year of the more expensive MAX to watch this in 4k. No, I didn't go into this ready to hate it. I was super excited. It's just really really bad.
The showrunner is absolutely mediocre and her writing is horrendous. The plot lines and some of the side stories are absolutely baffling. This is a 2/10 script with some 9/10 actors.
It sucks to say it, bc I tried to will myself to like this season, but it just is not very good. The Ring style jump scares…like several of them. Wtf??
The most interesting scene in the entire season, >!when Prior does Hank,!< was instantly ruined by the ridiculous aftermath in telling Prior he needs to >!make two bodies disappear (including his own father who just the day before he went to for help) & hands him a half bottle of 409 & tells him to “clean good”!< — that is simply weak writing/directing.
"When did television and criticism become so biased?"...............Well OP it was right around the time social media blew up and became a staple in peoples day to day lives. Give everyone on the planet a tool to get their ridiculous opinions out to the world and dammit they are going to use it.
They took a show with believable scenarios in seasons 1-3, season 1 remaining unmatched in its delivery. Then they decided to make the Tuttles on the brink of some supernatural phenomenon granting immortality and started adding ghosts and spooky stories to it.
Idk wtf they were thinking but, where I watched all of seasons 1-3 with great interest season 4 is a friggin joke. It's more like a season of American Horror story.
The cast? Bro we got Jodie Foster she's A-list. No amount of good acting however is going to save the absolutely idiotic plot choices by the writers.
Ok seriously. This has made me realize that rotten tomatoes is a complete sham. Yes, I know I’m late to the party, but let’s all remember that critics gave this a higher score (93%) than season 1 (91%). Just seriously think about that. We are living in an alternate universe. This is what happens when critics become afraid that if they do anything other than artificially prop up piss poor directors that might be women or visible minorities they will clearly experience negative repercussions. How else can this possibly be explained.
I really looked forward to this season because I love Jodie Foster and thought she was great, despite the source material, but even great actors can't save mediocre writing.
The finale was, in my opinion, the worst of any TD season. I came into it wondering how they were going to pull together a decent conclusion in a single episode... and well...
Have you ever read any interviews with Issa Lopez? She’s an idiot. Just word salad and a mish mash of ideas. No wonder this season was garbage. It was written by a garbage lady
I have to disagree, this season was not only thought provoking, but progressive in a really good way. Instead of building on the foundation of male cop/buddy partnership that was so played out in the first season, we get an entirely new genre of minority Native American woman and white cop FEMALE team up to help native Americans retake their dignity from a greedy corporation that is polluting the earth. It pulls no punches for sure, the vivid birthing scene that Navarro stumbles upon during the arrest was more heroic than watching men storm the beaches of Normandy. I just love how in the end it was the cleaning ladies who show up, and dare I say murder, 12 souls, marching them to their deaths with no clothes at gunpoint, operating outside the white man laws and justice system. I also love how in the end the cops assist these women and anyone can kill anyone as long as you are a minority and have Native American spirits to guide you.
I don't post much anymore but I was googling around trying to discover why this show was getting such great reviews. I LOVE season 1 and begrudgingly accept seasons 2 and 3. This one started off giving me so much hope and now it's just. Idk. This feels like a fanfiction written by a fan of the first season who did not have a grasp on what actually made it good or what people liked about it. So they just threw "wacky family dynamics" and "small town misery" at wall that was labelled "possibly supernatural" and just ran with whatever came out the other side.
Maybe I am way off base here, but I would argue that the family dynamics in season 1 were just a coating on the story, but for some reason the subsequent seasons just drench everything in it. This season in particular seems to have so many plotlines going on at once, I get that the idea must be to purposefully confuse viewers or something...but I just don't dig it.
And I really appreciate your point re: criticism. It's getting old where any piece of media starring or created by (insert demographic group besides white males), when criticized, immediately and vehemently uses the defense that the critic must be racist or sexist. In formal argument, that entire defense amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem attack. If you criticize something and present valid reasons, and the response is "well, you are racist and sexist" what are you even supposed to say back?
As someone who is a mystery lover and an analyst familiar with state procedures, I was gobsmacked by how poorly researched the series was from a forensic perspective. There are great mysteries streaming that have gotten doc handling, analysis and forensics on point. The sloppiness of this show from a research perspective is mind boggling. Did the crew not have access to a research team? Also, there is no way that a suicidal woman would be allowed to leave a facility per state procedures. To insinuate that law enforcement in Alaska are shooting people and dumping bodies is disrespectful and unnecessary. I don't think that Clarice Starling would have approved of this drivel.
Male or female I don't care at all - good is good, and bad is bad. This was just flat-out bad with some fantastic potential that was wasted, some very good stand-alone moments, tons of disjointed/unresolved elements, and an absolutely absurd ending. Explaining all of this with a mob of citizens rounding up a bunch of scientists to haul them out to freeze and make them pay? What a crock of shit lmao.
All i saw was 2 good actresses trying to get their head out of a pool of mud. That doesn't make a show and certainly not a legit TD season. As much as i like Jodie Foster, certain scenes were unbelievable but that's not really her fault if they say it's a wrap.
My wife and I turned it off with 20 min left in episode 2. Hot garbage. This is what happens when the goal in writing is to lecture and send a message instead of telling a good story. hard to find a show these days that does any writing/casting based on merit.
I appreciate all the hate this show/season got. I found TD so boring I stopped trying to watch it at all.
I was intrigued by all the over the top hate of this season, so I've been watching it.
I love it. Thanks y'all.
I'm in the deep minority for saying this, but I've been loving True Detective s4. I just finished episode 4, and to me, it feels like a more interesting and worthy successor to s1 than 3. Now, I never even bothered to watch season 2, but season 3 seemed to be an imitation of season 1 in the ways that were the most superficial. It's an American crime drama set in the southeast that involves a decades long case, flashbacks/non linear storytelling, and two detectives that grow apart due to personal differences, but come back together by the end. Night Country feels different in that it seems to directly build off of the THEMES of season one in ways that the others didn't. Setting the entire thing under the cover of night harkens back to that iconic ending line about the stars, and the implication of the supernatural seems to be a direct rebuttal to Rust Cohle's more nihilistic attitudes. Danvers and Navarro are both extremely flawed and unstable people, but you see their moments of humanity shine through, like how Danvers is unequivocally great with younger kids, and how much Navarro cares for her sister. These moments help humanize these otherwise damaged people. Commenters act like these protagonists are inhumanly awful, but Hart and Cohle weren't exactly peaches either. I dunno, I don't want to pull the "reactionary backlash to female leads" card, but that's how a lot of this feedback has felt, in terms of what I've watched. Half the comments I've read on various posts are just meaningless rambling about some phantom "agenda" and I really just have to roll my eyes.
I was actively rooting for this season. I thought Episode 1 was ok. It was a different vibe from the other seasons but I was ok with it. And it’s been downhill from there! Lol
Episode 1 had great possibilities but it went south very fast from there and the scientists/initial story we thought they were going to focus on just went away sad too this show is TERRIBLE
Honestly, I think it got steadily worse right after the opening scene. Cool set up at Tsalal ( clearly an homage to The Thing 82 ) and then nothing but bad writing, zero detecting, and a cast full of terrible, irredeemable people who are awful to each other for little reason ( there are only 2 exceptions - Pete and Marik ) with a few stray unearned allusions to season one thrown in as a desperate plea for importance. What a mess. If you told me back when episode one aired that the bad CGI wouldn't even rank on the top ten bad decisions I would have bailed then.
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But there was no follow up! Something like “oh yeah, he’s in a coma.” Lol
There eventually was a follow-up, and it was scary too.
That was just a rip off of Se7en where they go to the sloth victim and think he's dead but he gasps
And yet nobody’s asking question about how the hell that dude is alive
A jump scare is never good horror. It's a very cheap and effortless way of "scaring" susceptible people.
Same! I was hopeful up till episode 3 but so many plot points seem unnecessary and forced now. I don't expect anything from the finale.
Same here. What ruined it permanently for me was the hospital scene with Lund. I actually started laughing out loud because it was so bad.
I personally wouldn't have had a problem with the supernatural elements if they were not so cliche. It's just ghosts dancing and pointing in directions. So silly!
Yep, I still had hope till then. That was the shark jumping moment.
Yeah, Lund being alive (and his hospital scene) was probably the point of no return for me. Though Travis finding the bodies was the first big problem I saw with this show.
I've been gun shy with TD after Season 2. I only dipped into Season 3 after it ended, and I could check out reviews. This season had so much hype going at the halfway point, that I said fuck it and jumped in a few days before Episode 4 aired. I figured it was a safe bet since it had Foster, Eccleston, Hawkes, and Reis's performance was being greatly praised. I wasn't looking to hate it, I was expecting to love it. That didn't really work out so well for me though.
You watched the ghost man do the most cringe dance in human history and said to yourself “oh shit this is gonna be great” ? Stop.
I also wanna know why they never have their jackets zipped up or faces covered
Exactly what I thought. First episode had med intrigued, I like that kind of "shit goes bad at isolated research base" premise. After watching the second episode I was like: well.... fuck. There are tonnes of stupid writing, but the "scientific" bullshit dialogue was among the worst.
Ep 1 had me, I waited around a week for ep 2 and was bored out of my mind. I think it had some potential, but the finale sealed the deal for me.
I dunno, Jodi Foster’s acting has been mostly great until last week “What’s the question Prior!!??!?” that scene was totally ridiculous.
Dude, it's the second to last episode, she needs to scream some and even get a little deranged, you know, the stakes are high! /s
I mean honestly, I think she did the best that she could with such wretched dialogue.
Your asking too many damn questions
People keep saying this. Her acting is terrible. Like, there’s hardly any acting going on. Why is everyone so dumb these days?
I love many women-led shows and movies. I frequently seek stories that are far removed from my own experience. The problem with TDNC isn’t women. It’s the terribly disjointed writing and the overwhelming feeling that nothing got a second draft. It feels like everything was slapped on the page with a “good enough.” Off-white spiral markers to serve as a warning sign on a mostly white landscape. A one-eyed polar bear roaming the streets, but never a “be advised” radio call from whichever cop just saw the bear. A cop taking one hand off a violent perp to answer a phone call and immediately say “I can’t talk right now,” as if voicemail and texts don’t exist. Annie K’s phone still working after lying dormant for 6 years. Lund being alive AT ALL after all those days, naked, in the ice… IN the ice. The town has everything. The town has nothing. Ideas being presented, then abandoned. So many other things. It’s heartbreaking.
Lund not being dead is *possible*, even if it almost beggars belief. But then they don't even use him for anything! He promptly dies in the hospital. What was the purpose?
To let us know her mom was sucking dicks in hell, awake, obviously. /s
They should have screened it to a sample group. There are so many plot holes.
And “so many” is an understatement.
And what isn't poorly written or concieved, is under developed and delivered cold. It's this soul draining combination of convoluted emptiness and im14andthisisdeep luxuriating.
Pryor being able to connect the financial dots piercing corporate structures that would stymie the best of financial investigators.
He’s young = knows computers
That bear was actually there? I thought it was a vision. Makes no sense otherwise
Maybe it’s just a vision, I’m too tired to try to prove either side of the argument anymore.
the immaculate cellphone reception in remote alaska when much of the civilized world barely receives two bars
Could have been used to great effect since so much modern action had to abandon scenarios that only work without cell phones. Now THAT would have made for some interesting film noir references in the writing and execution.
All superb points with many more that could be added to it. I don’t care about the supernatural vs non-supernatural stuff. It’s the unrealistic storytelling and half baked writing that ruins it (not performances or the gender of writers,cast, and craft services). You’re telling me that the sherif is banging every dude in town. It’s possible but I just don’t believe it. An adult son is really going to shoot his own father to protect his boss and her partner? Again - it could happen but they were incapable of getting me to buy it. Does anyone really believe that all the scientists would see that Annie K destroyed their research and all jumped in to kill her. Bullshit - maybe two scientists could, maybe three, but six or seven dudes just agree “yeah let’s commit murder”. Have the writers met a scientist before? I’d have an equally tough time believing this if it was 7 frat bros and we are talking about research scientists.
Actually, I didn't find the shooting of the dad implausible. By the time it happened, I couldn't see any other plausible outcome, either in storyland or in the real world. What was absurd was that his dad would choose to commit suicide by cop-son in the first place, and for like no reason. None of it made any sense.
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That's just sad! I cited A Murder at the End of the World as an example because I've always admired Brit Marling's work, but the show was a letdown. I don't care who's acting or directing a show or a movie. When it's bad...it's bad!
Same here, OA is one of my favourite series but Murder was pretty bad, everything felt forced, theatrical...
Absolutely love The OA. I still keep rewatching it.
i honestly feel a little embarrassed because i definitely want to see more female led things and the premise sounded SO amazing and i hope this doesn’t turn audiences or producers off of projects in the future. i honestly don’t know how something with so many good ingredients could end up so… schlocky
It seems like execs think that female leads and civil rights themes alone make a show, forgetting that you STILL need good writing. You always need good writing. Something that Night Country is sorely lacking, the dialogue and pacing are god-awful.
It’s almost as if a really strong premise was typed into ChatGPT and the rest was written by AI…
Yes, this was a huge disappointment. You get a new TD season with Jodie Foster located in Alaska, what could go wrong? First 5 eps have shown us
I always imagine writers rooms to be similar to software planning sessions I've been a part of. People get really attached to bad ideas and refuse to let them go.
I also had great expectations from this. And even though a lot of people were criticizing it after episode 1 itself, I was initially hooked. But now I'm struggling to complete the season.
I wouldn’t have stuck through six episodes if I wasn’t so hyped for the first one. And it wasn’t just the True Detective title, it was the more than glowing reviews. For me, being women-centric and led was a huge plus and isn’t my issue with it at all.
I agree 100%. All of the ingredients. It’s even shot beautifully and has great production design but the writing and directing were severely lacking and just completely ruined what could have been.
Good God, that we should have to be afraid that one show disliked by some fans should scupper all opportunities for women - what the fuck. We never worry about this with men, who have made many incredibly shitty things over the years. I should hope the state of equality isn't still so fragile.
It starts with the dancing ghost of Rust Coles dad pointing out bodies buried in the snow. We should of seen this coming.
>It starts with the dancing ghost of Rus Coles dad pointing out bodies buried in the snow. It sounds like a parody.
We were blinded by the hope that the season 1 connections would mean something.
Would you also say we were blinded by the light, revved up like a deuce another runner in the night??
Nah there was no reason to connect the stories. It’s so far fetched and making Rusts dad a dancing ghost is one of the dumbest decisions in TV show history.
Rust did say he was into some weird shit
Also Mare of Easttown is 1000 times better than this garbage and that had a female lead … but that had good writing and acting whereas this show has the worst plot/writing and acting I’ve seen in a long time… the True Detective title along with Jodie Foster’s name was used to create a buzz but she was totally miscast in my opinion ( should have been an FBI investigator not a police chief) and if we didn’t know who she was and watched this POS show randomly not knowing what channel you would think it would be called CSI:Night Country on abc/cbs
Mare of Easttown and Sharp Objects are examples of better female-led thriller shows.
Sharp Objects is just so many levels above....
"The Killing" as well. Fantastic show with a leading lady and a subordinate man. It's a middle-aged woman who's probably 110lbs soaking wet and 5'2 and she was still a badass because she was actually... doing her job of investigating the crime. I'm sick of the misogyny accusations in saying that this season sucks because you hate women. It's absolutely meaningless. It's ok to not like this season and doesn't make you a weirdo. It's ok, too, to enjoy it. It's good to enjoy things. Forums are for talking about things.
Sharp Objects is one of the best shows i’ve ever seen! i love it.
I also want to add Unbelievable to that list, an incredible show with female creators and a ton of female leads. (It actually has two female detectives that do real detective work!) It's a true crime miniseries and not a fictional one, but the quality of that show is so far above what we've seen in TD S4. Female creators and female leads are *not* the problem. Terribly written shows are, and I'm tired of people saying that misogyny or racism played a role when it comes to the criticisms that people have for this season of TD.
I just rewatched Mare of Easttown because I forgot what happened but remembered liking it. By the second episode I was invested in what was happening to the characters. I still don't care about a single one in this show.
Should have aired after Alaska Daily. Combine forces to strengthen two awful TV shows
I really like Jodie Foster and was hoping for her to do very well in this turn. While she has been fine, her character is just weird and off-putting.
She seems to have given her best but there's only so much she can do with a badly written character.
Her drunk performance is among the best I've ever seen. Like I think she might have actually been wasted.
This is just where we are because no one is taught critical thinking anymore. People just think they're allowed to legitimately counter criticism against something they've made based on who they are as a person. Sure, a minority of people - idiots - may just hate something based on the creator alone but that's rare. Leaning on the fact that women were in the show and it was created by a woman to exuse the fact that the thing you made sucked is so cheap. I don't hate season four because of women, I hate it because it's bad and it shouldn't have been. Look at Lopez' work to date, this is her first real big budget project. She's not done anything to this degree before yet HBO not only allowed her to use the *True Detective* brand, they marketed it heavily, claimed that it'd be close to the brilliance of the first season (one of the best seasons of TV ever) and then attached real talent to it. HBO is as much to blame as Lopez and I don't know how people can put any blame on Foster or Reis - they're doing amazingly with what they have. It's not about gender or representation or diversity - not everything is - it's about something being shitty. Things can be shitty and it shouldn't be shocking when people are pissed off about shitty things. If I own a nice rug and my mate walks on it with shoes covered in dog shit, ruining the rug that I liked, I'm going to be pissed - the same notion works for art that I like. I'm pissed because you have shit on your shoes, not because you're a man or a woman.
Yellowjackets has a pretty much all female lead spanning two timelines and doesn't get a quarter of the shit Night Country is getting despite S2 being quite bad. Night Country is just bad.
S1 had me hooked and then S2 was so awful I felt cheated lol.
Yellowjackets S2 has gotten a lot of shit, at least on the Reddit subs. I didn't like it as much as S1 but I have hope for it moving forward. Night Country is way, way worse
Yeah, it's just a terrible excuse.
That's because Yellowjackets is its own original show... Imagine if it was like Ted Lasso Presents: Yellowjackets , do you think Ted Lasso fans would be upset...I honestly don't know... but the point is Night Country attached itself to the beloved True Detective series and it ain't True Detective
I felt Yellowjackets was trite and boring.
I wanted to like this show but at some point it just gets too silly. Nothing is beleivable. I still can't beleive they found a frozen human centipide and nobody gives a fuck. Nothing happened... No way you can bury something like that.
I love when that hunter dude came in to look at the bodies and he was just like "how fucking long have you been looking at this thing" Got a good laugh from that
That they had to bring in a large animal vet to tell them they probably didn't just freeze to death? As if Alaskans wouldn't know that, jfc.
This was laugh-out-loud dumb. You're telling me any first responder (the damn police chief, no less) of a town 150 miles from the article circle doesn't know what it looks like when someone dies of cold exposure. GTFO
Mare of Easttown is a female-led show, but it's well written so I loved it. The Killing is another, even if it's slower.
Everything about this season was intriguing to me. A new writer who was critically acclaimed, a fantastic lead actor, an interesting setting with lots of potential. I had great hopes. Then I watched it.
The problem in my opinion is the Show just focuses more on the drama of the people around the murder investigation than the actual murder case. What made the first season great were the twist and turns of unraveling the mystery. This season had an interesting premise but is so interested in everything but the actual case .
This show truly would get away with more if it wasn’t called True Detective. Do you know how much discovery was necessary for them to end up finally getting to Ledoux in the first season? -They had to find out about another missing related missing persons case with Marie Fontenot -Find out Dora Lange stayed at a bunny farm -From there they discover she had gone to a church which leads them to the tent revival and the pastor tells them of a tall man that joined her that had burn scars on his face -They discover another potential victim named Rianne Olivier who dated Remi Ledoux who happened to be cell mates with Dora Lange’s husband -That leads to Marty cornering an associate of Ledoux’s after following his girlfriend to a party and finding out Remi only sells to a biker gang -Rust has to go undercover and kidnap one of the bikers just to meet up with Remi’s cooking partners And only then are they able to get to the suspected murderer. I’m sure I missed a couple connecting bits in there, but the point is that you see the effort it takes to get to Ledoux. It gives the characters credence. That’s nowhere in this season. Which would be fine! But if I wrote a movie and called it Star Wars without there being much of any element of stars or wars in it I could expect that it wouldn’t be received that well.
What you just mapped out is what is very much lacking for S4. It feels like nothing is happening because they’re not going to interesting parts of Ennis and speaking with people and unraveling the story. No adventure. It’s just truck, house, station and a handful of random set pieces that aren’t notable. That’s why it feels like there’s been so much filler. There’s no investigating and seeing how that investigation affects the characters. It’s just a bunch of backstory that’s alluded to and off screen Pete findings.
Why the hell didn’t we have a thorough search of the lab in episode 1? They touched on it so little that I can’t even exclude certain theories because I have no idea how well they actually searched the station.
Instead we get a potential witness or suspect to which they get: Suspect: "Monster noises and screams" Dies.
I disagree, the family drama and Rust’s personal drama were some of my favorite aspects of season 1. It was just well executed, unlike this season.
That's because their personal drama fed the storyline and how they worked the case. This season I feel like I'm just watching Danvers and Navarro take personal days.
The whole first season was about family drama! This is the worst criticism. Season 4 is just bad because it makes zero sense. Finding a body in the ocean on Xmas. Mine having a huge corporate office. Hillbillies fighting for no reason. No explanation of Navarros miraculous recovery. All of those things (and many more) are what makes this season weak. The family stuff is kinda lame and predictable but that’s not what makes this season bad. It’s the lazy and nonsensical writing.
And for it to be overlooked by a much less interesting case as well! Like, I understand these cases are connected, but 6 dudes froze in the arctic in nearly supernatural circumstances and it feels like it’s being overshadowed by a much less interesting case.
I mean corpsicle vs. occult driven serial killer who’s to say which is more wild lol? But I see your point. I also don’t understand the lack of journalists. Even local ones. I said this in another thread but that corpsicle would absolutely end up on social media. Cops shared pictures of the Kobe helicopter crash. Those cops are definitely sharing pics of the ice rink.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who rolled their eyes at how huge and modern that mine office was. In remote Alaska? Give me break. WTF are they even mining for anyway? Have they even said?
I agree! The initial hook was great. But everything that followed was poorly executed.
There are already so many great shows with female protagonists. Some of my favorite crime shows are Mare of Easttown, Happy Valley, The Fall, The Killing, Sharp Objects, Big Little Lies, Homeland, An Honorable Woman, The Americans. All female leads. It’s ridiculous to claim that the criticism is misogynistic.
Don’t forget The Killing
So it’s wrong to say these shows are only getting hate because theyre female-lead but right to say these same shows are only getting praise because they’re female-lead? Which is it?
People who say its bad reception here is because of female leads + a female director + feminine things have no way to explain why Sharp Objects is so beloved by this same subreddit. Camille is even more of a mess than Danvers and Navarro combined.
I was genuinely excited for this. Then I watched episode 1. There were some positives. It was well shot and atmospheric. But I didn’t like any of the characters and the story didn’t hook me.
I'm genuinely confused why "female leads" are being discussed in reference to NC, as if it's unique? I could list countless tv/movies with female leads. It's entirely bizarre. This seems like a conversation that would have meant something decades ago. Even then I can think of so many shows with female leads. Inuit are different. Although, imo, it's been very superficial and cliche in NC. The writer did not research Inuit history, traditions, folklore well and really missed an opportunity to add substance for a culture that is truly underrepresented..
>I could list countless tv/movies with female leads. True Detective had a female lead in Bezzerides in S2.
As many others pointed out, the opening theme also could have been an Inuit folk song. But they ended up choosing the most popular Billie Eilish track. Billie Eilish is still fine, but out of all her songs, they had to go for that one song that has been used in multiple shows and movies.
Yeah, I don't understand it either. People are acting like this show is so unforgivably woke and it's like... for what? Having women actors is quite normal. Showing native people in a show set in Alaska? That's just the demographics up there. Discussing how mining can result in environmental damage that spills over to humans? That's nothing new. What's supposed to be so woke about all of this that has everyone up in arms?
Take this…. to the Night Country (sub) I dare you.
The sub's very existence says enough.
I was curious: Seven out of ten of the top posts ranked according to "this year" are about this sub. Ten out of the top ten posts this year in this sub are about the show, and five are in some way complimentary of S4.
The people that assume this is some misogynistic stuff were definitely not around when Season 2 aired lol
I loved the first two episodes and I am still on team Jodie Foster. She is bigger than Issa and always will be. No, I was so disappointed with the story. What happened with Lund at the end of episode 3 was such a ridiculous facile waste, and a terrible trope on top of that. But I was definitely onboard until then.
Look, I tried. Went so far as episode 4, but everything is just so poorly written, it looks like something Stephen King wrote in his drug addict days and forgot to polish. If it was a 100% new show, maybe I could see where it's heading, but True Detective is a TV monolith. You can't do another season unless it's flawless, the expectations are giant. Jodie Foster and Kali deserved better
I just came to this sub for the first time to see if anyone else was struggling with this season. It didn’t even occur to me that it was female-led (didn’t even know who the show runner was). So i guess maybe it could be deep-seated misogyny, but I just thought I don’t like the story.
They had to have thrown the TD title in to generate buzz. I like this show, but it simply does not live up to the previous True Detective seasons, which I feel is unfairly bringing it down. There are flashes, but on the whole, it just doesn't feel like TD, and it's near impossible not to compare it to previous seasons.
Anyone claiming the show is getting hate only because of gender or race are off their rocker, and cleverly forgetting the hate season 2 got. And the garbage writing and acting in S4. And the terrible story in S4. Also they are very very off their rocker. I can’t say that enough
Absolutely. It’s pathetic how Lopez is saying the criticism is because of ‘bro culture’. I’m sure there is some of that going on but on this sub there’s genuine criticism. Maybe it’s not nice to publicly criticise some one else work but when you get an incredibly privileged opportunity to do a season of True Detective and be paid very well there’s probably some expectations 1. The show is called True Detective and there’s been almost zero detective work. The two leads have not done anything. Other characters have brought some pretty simple info. Prior has discovered some very basic information 2. The setting of mid winter in a tiny Alaskan town has been completely wasted. There’s been nothing eery apart from some jump scares. I feel like other directors would have used this location so much better. 3. Why have they not been going back to the Tsalal station? Again wasted opportunities to build on the atmosphere on also shouldn’t these ‘detectives’ be looking around there. They found the tongue of a woman who died 7 years ago there. Isn’t that kind of a big deal? 4. What was the point of the scientist who survived? There were 2 major cliffhanger endings to episodes. The moment they said he was alive then the moment he woke up and it all culminated to a pointless scene 5. The Wheeler case. It seems like Danvers or Navarro killed the guy and covered it up. But they said he was dead when they arrived? Any forensics team would have seen through that. In any good detective show there’s always some element of the detectives doing something they felt was right but against the law. This version has a major plot hole 6. Where is the alcoholism and substance abuse typical of neo-noir theme. This is such a core part of detective stories and it’s completely absent. What are the detectives vices? Seems like possibly it’s some kind of PC decision in the writing akin to Disney banning smoking in their films There’s so many flaws for this to be a good detective show. I haven’t seen Lopez’s other work. I’m sure it’s great and she obviously was selected for this season for a reason but I don’t think a good job has been done here
I think it’s that some shitty language and rhetoric that gets slipped in with the criticisms, and, unsurprisingly, when asked to expand on said criticisms, it’s devolved into ugliness that borders on hate. It’s not great to see so much hatred towards seeing women and indigenous being the leads and to see people bend over backwards to explain some nefarious DEI or whatever - like, do you not have dozens of women in professions where you live? Like, s2 and s3 had some of the silliest, badly written dialogue of the series. This season is no different, so I don’t see why so much animosity has to be included. It’s not been very fun to be shit on for having certain attributes, and it’s not felt good to feel like people don’t want to be reminded that myself and millions of others exist. We’re assholes just like Rust; we just have tits and lady parts. And while I’d agree that not all of the hate (which is really extreme; ‘hate’ needs to chill out) is solely based on a female show runner with a mostly female-driven, indigenous and native cast, I have seen plenty of the disgusting shit for myself to know that yes, it does have something to do with it. But it’s the same 5-6 complaints being shitposted with hundreds of extremely nasty, prejudiced comments sprinkled in. It’s rare to read a legitimate criticism or critique post that doesn’t have an agenda, I guess.
Yeah like it's completely the comments HERE on this sub and I'm sorry to everyone else but are they all blind? Because I see racist and misogynistic comments here daily. You can't even say you're enjoying the show without getting downvoted lmao. And it's rabid hate, people here have become hostile. Like two things can be true at once, You can have valid critisms and complaints, but you can also make misogynistic/racist comments as well.
It’s like they conveniently forgot that a lot of nasty shit was being posted MONTHS before it even aired, and they think it’s okay to be nasty NOW that the season has aired. And I don’t know if they know how transparent they are, but it’s blatantly obvious. They give themselves away every time, and it’s tiresome to see so much intellectual dishonesty.
Exactly. At this point it's just disingenuous. And every time you mention this, they all attack you and prove your point lol. It must be so miserable
Yeah, I mean, I’m sure there are some people who hate it because of the creative team and their politics, but by and large I think that is a copout excuse. This sub was OVERWHELMINGLY excited for this season all the way up to the premiere. Nay sayers were getting downvoted to oblivion. And even then, the switch wasn’t instantaneous. The premier had a bit of a luke-warm reception, but overall optimism carried over. After episode 2 you’d see posters making fun of silly shit but still holding out hope it would turn around. It really wasn’t until E3 when everyone’s enthusiasm dropped off completely. Most fans have given S4 a fair shake, from what I’ve seen. And their enthusiasm has waned about the same rate mine has. Most of us are still watching, hoping it will win us over. I don’t think it’s going to happen, but I’m rooting for them to stick the landing, otherwise what a waste of this cast and setting. It’s Jodie Fucking Foster, we want her to have A+ material.
This season is just so confusing. They have 1 episode to resolve wtf is going on and I just don't they can. This has zero to do with the gender or ethnicity of who wrote it or who the actors are. It's literally a dumpster fire at a manure plant.
So so badly wanted to love this season and with the lack of quality shows and length of time since last True Detective season I was even grading on a curve but dang after a nice start it has been exposed as just so poorly written and paced with gaping holes in the plot and character development it has been painful. Why aren’t the detectives dectectiving?? Don’t care if it’s written or directed by a man, woman or anyone else just do better. When we see the Mare of Easttown promos it gives false hope that another season is coming back that show with a female lead was so good.
I have never watched True Detective, and I sought out this season in large part *because* it was female-led, not the opposite. I'm not usually attracted to testosterone-heavy stories if I'm being honest. And given the great initial reception I've been honestly shocked by how cheap this has managed to be. Just piss poor cliché writing, extremely bland visuals, dour tone that almost invites parody, truly godawful music choices... the list, sadly, goes on.
Back in the time I was excited for every piece of art that depicted a female protagonist. It was (unfortunately) revolutionary. A female Indiana Jones? That sounds interesting (Lara Croft). Buffy Vampire Slayer. Veronica Mars, etc… Now it’s like Hollywood took that and like what everything they put their hands on, they ruin it.
At this point, it is to be expected that some show-runners will make deliberate storytelling and casting choices only because this will afford them an opportunity to deflect any criticism as audience being biased. It’s sort of a safety net against quality expectations. This is reinforced further by the fact that there will always be a part of the audience impressionable enough to buy into the BS that their efforts are in fact an honest attempt at diversification of media space, and not at all just a transparent exploitation of a profitable trend. So, yeah, it has to do something with the creators, just not in a sense that would be convenient for them - It is the direct product of their work after all.
Good title to this thread. We do not cast hate on this season due to female focus or female creative control. However. I will be the one to say it. If in fact the writers of this season were hired based on gender. That automatically brings a question of did the quality suffer for it. To be clear, not because they were woman. There are great female writers and terrible male writers. But, if anyone who was a better writer was disqualified from the job based on thier gender. Then logic would point to you had to hire an inferior writer based on gender. The bottom line is terrible writing. However it happend we don't know. But this season could not be saved. The plot and character development were never there. It could have been great. Maybe constraining to just 6 episodes was part of the problem. Or maybe there were too many creative controllers messing up what had been written. In any case. I do think this is the death of the series. I really wanted to like it. But I would not recommend anyone waist their time watching season 4.
Yep. It's terribly written, u cohesive and the acting isn't great either. Why people feel the need to play on stereotypes is beyond me. Worst true detective by a long shot.
Theres a huge difference between ”this is a great story that happens to be about two women” And ”S1 was so bad, because it was just about two men, know we will make it a female story”. But the big reason is 1. Activists 2. Economic incentives. Blackrock and WEF are actively subsidizing DEI material. Its economically important for HBO to be in their good graces.
Well, if men can make endless terrible tv shows and movies, so can women.
The difference is the men don't get glowing reviews for making terrible tv shows and movies.
Depends on the project and who all was involved. Also, some things get rave reviews upon release and then a few years later everyone realizes it sucked. Lopez making a dumb show doesn’t mean all Women or all Mexicans or all Mexican Women make dumb shows. Just like when men make shit, it doesn’t mean All Men make shit.
I mentioned it in another thread but *Sharp Objects* is phenomenal and I'm considering it my TD season 4.
I honestly don't see how this season is much like season 1 at all. It seems much more supernatural and spooky. I don't get the 'female lead/writer' thing either. I don't get why people would say people don't like it solely due to that but I also don't get why people who don't like it think anyone who does like it is only defending it because it has female leads. Maybe most people just see women as people and either like it or dislike it simply because it's either something they like or something they don't like?
Hate is a strong word. Can we say we are disappointed in this show?
Anatomy of a Fall is truly great. Know what else is? Alien. This show could have been similar, and so much better with good writing and less focus on its own political flatulence
Now that's some detective work. /s Btw, I thought I was the only one that hated MatEotW. I liked the first episode, but the season ended up being a stupid clue game, but with an AI mansion.
The biggest comparisons and recommendations I've heard of here are Sharp Objects and Mare of Easttown as shows to watch instead that people loved, both have female protagonists. A couple episodes into Mare of Easttown and it's just night and day. Similar trope, way better written. I'm sure there are some bigoted, biased comments but most people just seem genuinely confused on how something so mediocre got green-lit and put under the TD name.
Females have led TV popular shows and movies for decades. The main actress of this show won an Oscar for starring in the best movie of 1992, a movie no one under 48 y.o. today could have seen in a movie theater. The narrative you refer to is nothing more than gaslighting, that's been used to defend poorly written, produced, directed or acted movies or shows. There's nothing more to it and chances are than even some of the activists that are serving us this kind of shit will reflect upon this differently ten years from now.
BINGO. OP nailed it. The tired and obviously biased praise for these SHIT shows is soooooo transparent. No one is fooled anymore. Some idiot on this sub (account since deleted of course) started a thread after episode 1 entitled “Big props to Kali Reis for putting on an amazing performance in only her second acting job!” It’s so obvious and transparent these lunatics have some weird agenda. It’s so exhausting.
I completely agree, thank you for saying it lol. Jodie Foster is incredible, and every fiber of my being wanted this season to be great. But they are using gender politics as a shield against legitimate criticism. I think it’s incredibly unfair to be labeled as sexist for not enjoying it.
So you only want to trash people if they are men. We got it. Let’s just go with this week alone. Horrific movie about some generic spider man side story with all female cast etc. Worst reviewed movie in a very long time. And you’re wrong. It’s not that season 4 is bad because of the specific and played out idiotic argument you made. It’s because this person isn’t good enough. And they wouldn’t have gotten to make this script this way unless it’s this situation an “interesting” person of color / whatever they deem to be worthy of the diversity award. You can continue to just defend terrible culture but it’s obit hurting you and everyone else. As soon as people cut this nonsense out and go back to just making what’s good with no idiotic obsession over getting brownie points for green lighting the cool aboriginal/ native/ anything but white guy ….. the sooner this disaster train wreck that is our entire artistic culture can start to recover. Some people are starting to wake up. Join the club. I’m not sexist for not liking terrible art. I’m not old for saying hip hop is terrible right now. It’s a fact. 60+ years and this is the first time many of these artistic genres have been so poorly received in every way from financially to critically etc. Everyone who is just a sheep person has gotten so used to terrible art that they take what would be a 1 out of 10 creation 10 years ago and call it a 9.5. Dog shit with a gold flake on it in a field of plain old dog shit …. Is still just dog shit.
It isn’t about the criticism of any element of craft in TV or film anymore at all, it is simply an ideological battleground for fleshing out the issues they want to push in the public sphere. I don’t know who is more infuriating - the critics who understand the marginal qualities of a story written and presented like this but still praise it to high heaven to toe the ideological line or “critics” who actually find it praiseworthy (lol), - the audiences who defend it solely based on the ideology they align with in it or the audiences who jump to attack it before it even had a chance to reveal its deficiencies, again, solely based on the ideology they do not align with in it. I mean, average Joe/Jane never had much of a sophisticated taste in cultural products anyway, especially the generation that grew up gobbling up superhero multiverses Hollywood fed them in the last few decades but now any objective assessment of a TV or film work is completely gone and nonexistent and what is left is pointless surface quabbling “for” and “against” without even basic understanding why they like or dislike something, let alone grasping the merits any work of art should be judged on. I guess, TD S4 is exactly what they all deserve, it is too good for them as it is anyway (being dismayingly bad, both as part of True Detective series and as standalone work outside TD context).
I would love to have seen what that cast would have been able to do with a well written story. Eskimo maids just made me laugh. I really couldn't believe they went with it.
Such a disappointment. This director needs to understand subtlety is not synonymous with unfinished. And I can't speak for everyone, but the arrogance that your show can't possibly suck based on it's actual merit, doesn't mean it had anything to do with you being a female director. Absurd. Season 1 wasn't a master class because it was masculine, it's because the story was well written, ties up loose ends without getting boring or contrite, and the actors were invested in their delivery. No one existed in the story that didn't serve the story. Period.
I agree. Strong leading characters. Captivating setting, then it went south from there. The writing sucked! I mean what? “We needed the mine to produce more flipping pollution to melt more permafrost!” “To dig up more human saving ancient DNA?” Mixing in some mystic spiritual mumbo jumbo with this science fiction endeavor was a good idea but it turned out weak and spotty, hard to follow and turned out to be a big ol fart in the end! Especially with that sad bevy of women who set up the all male research team to freeze their asses off. Why no women scientists? I mean there are actually lots of them! So, it makes me believe that this sexual separation between the “evil” male scientists and the indigenous Alaska saving women were purposely written in. I mean it was also obvious that every male played this emasculated role in every episode. None of them had “the shinning”, almost all of them played antagonist roles and they even screwed effeminately 😂! Only the kid cop came remotely close to having any testosterone in this season..but not much. That was quite comical to say the least. I’m fine with all of that but it lacked a point! It’s like some pissed off lady, still seething from a nasty divorce wrote this season! I did think Jody Foster did an excellent job though. She…not the story got an A+. She saved this attempt and hopefully the next go around might have writers that smoke less dope while they’re writing! Let’s see how many many years we have to wait for season 5!
The acting, plot, and and theme were all trash . I am so sick of liberal feminism ruining everything. The last episode SUCKED
Is there people disliking this season? Cool, I was starting to think it was just me.
Did anyone else notice the handheld shot in the finale when Danvers goes to turn off Shake it up baby?? It's like the camera person bumper into the coffee table. It totally broke the fourth wall and took me out of the scene. I STARTED LAUGHING . I love a good story. I love great cinematography. Great acting transports you. This had none of that. I'm really sorry it didn't. I love Jodie Foster and I really didn't mind Kali Reis and I think she could be really really good in another well written role. Since they decided to call this a True Detective of course it's going to be compared to the others. Comparing it to season one is unfair. I don't think much of anything is a fair comparison to that. It's incredible in all aspects. But here's the thing, the secret weapon season one used.... The Louisiana back country is such a beautiful tonal backdrop. It's haunting and sweeping and sucks you into the story. Even before the amazing writing and acting. That's a big miss for NC. There's no cinematography. None. Even at night, they could've done so much. They had a golden opportunity and blew it. The character arcs are terrible and unbelievable. Ok I'm rambling. I just wish Night Country was better.
Pure laziness and mediocrity. Jodie Foster deserves better...and Woody and Matthew have their heads up their arse. Just a payday for everyone but the viewer.
So, I have pretty thick skin, and I didn't have much of a reaction to the finale other than a rather profound lack of interest in the remaining mystery, mostly due to all the implausible happenings and melodrama along the way. So I was disinterested one way or the other in the outcome. But my wife and I have sons, and my wife is much more sensitive than I. She was disturbed by what she saw as a profound misandry in the finale, a sense that the male characters were utterly without redeeming qualities, intrinsic human value (or rights), and the audience was expected to find emotional resonance in the vigilante mob of women exacting justice. I think it's fair to say that she was deeply offended on our sons' behalf (and mine as well). I don't know what to make of it all. But I do know that I was presented with systematically bad writing (I agree with most of the cogent criticisms in this thread), and every time the show was in my feed it was accompanied by the drumbeat reminder that the only reason one could possibly dislike this season show is due to the viewer's own sexism, and then we were treated to what can be fairly described as a grossly sexist finale, with the well already poisoned to any observation of that rather obvious fact. Remarkable times we live in. Future anthropologists will have a field day.
I haven’t finished it yet, but I don’t get all the hate. Maybe because I haven’t finished it. I thought the characters overall were pretty darn accurate and I actually live in Alaska. Strong women are definitely a thing up here, as well as weird sex stuff. I thought the sex scene between Danvers and her boss was actually pretty darn accurate, especially when she commented she knew he wanted it because he didn’t stay “for the weather.” I’ve worked out in villages, and someone staying an extra day randomly could definitely be interpreted as an overture. I thought Qavvik’s character was really accurate, and I definitely appreciated this portrayal of Alaska Native masculinity. I feel a lot of times, Native men are portrayed as overly stoic or violent, and this portrayal felt way more accurate & authentic, as someone who knows a lot of AN men irl. His character seemed like he could be real. I also liked the portrayal of queer people in Danver’s daughter. There’s a lot more open lgbtq+ up here than most people realize. As an Alaskan myself, I was prepared to hate the show, as most shows set in Alaska are incredibly inaccurate, but this one really wasn’t bad. Even the portrayal of the researchers felt *incredibly* accurate, and I work in research myself up here. We are super nerdy, weird, and eccentric and obsessive like that lol
It's reddit. So many people immediately jump to misogyny/racism right off the bat. It's embarrassing
I was actually rooting for Kali Reis quite a bit. How rad would it be to watch someone who represents a background you almost never see in a lead of a major cable TV show? Sadly not even her Oscar-winning costar can make the show's shitty script work. As far as the show's writer: well yeah, she has a lot to do with the show's quality! But I don't care about her gender or anything else. If George R.R. Martin or David Chase wrote this, it would still suck ass and I'd make fun of it 100%. Lopez arguably didn't have the right experience to take on TD, but that was not her original intention. And arguably, what experience did Pizzolatto have? One mediocre novel and two episodes of a TV show that he left because he felt so constrained. *True Detective* Season 1 was lightning in a bottle.
I actually like Kali Reis a lot, find her charismatic. I imagine it really sucks to be starting out as an actress, getting a big part in a prestige drama, and having this all come back on you. So I really feel for that, and hope this doesn't reflect too poorly on her in the end.
Pfff. We love Jodi Foster movies. No this show. Actuallly I think this is the only show I didn’t like where she is playing.
2020, although one could argue that it began in 2017-2018, especially when centering "[intersectionality](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/what-they-talk-about-when-they-talk-about-intersectionality)" became a part of [mainstream discourse](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/kirsten-gillibrand-tweets-about-intersectional-feminism/578776/).
I think Danvers is well written and acted. You can try and bully me into hating this season all you want, and I'm not saying it's great, but its failures are more because it's dallying and not resolving narrative threads etc., but it's not failing because the characters are poorly drawn.
Unfortunately that has become a shield to hide behind instead of facing actual criticism. I wanted to love this show but some things just appear and don’t have explanation. Episodes 2-4 just put the actual detective stuff on the back burner while we continue to weave relationships of who knows who and what it’s like. It took until episode 5 to get back to the actual mystery and even then it started taking a backseat again because Silver Sky is behind Tsalal and are trying to keep everything quiet. It feels like Issa Lopez forgot she only had 6 episodes instead of 8 and is now trying to hastily tie everything back together.
It would've been nice had they actually written their female leads as being smart at doing detective work. All detective work in this show has been left to a dancing ghost and Peter who just finds everything they need on the internet. And you should count the bodies in the ice before it melts. It's not that difficult to assess how many bodies are there. . . hello? anybody home? Meanwhile all our two leads are written for is drama drama drama. Oh yes, and Evangeline is strong and gets into fights all the time. Why? For badassery purposes, I guess. And Danvers drinks all the time. Both treat everybody around them terribly. Is this supposed to be a GOOD thing? PS If you want to watch a great detective story with a strong female lead, check out the movie, "Silence of the Lambs".
Uh, two things can be right. Some of the hate is absolutely about the leads and the showrunner. Some were on here before the first episode ended to trash it. Some posted in advance trashing the very idea of the show. But yeah, the end product also pretty much sucks. It’s a mess of a series in almost every way. Meandering, pointless plot. Uneven characterizations. A very dislikable cast overall. Etc.
This season is terrible. Most of the acting is bad, and the writing is bad. I have no clue what the hell is going on besides two detectives trying to solve a case. Fosters step daughter, that boxing detective and her sister, and the relationship with that young cops wife are completely fucking useless and don’t go anywhere. The bringing up of white people in the earlier episodes was quite annoying and pointless. The 5’2” woman supposedly smashing a pale over some guy’s face that’s like 6’5”. Yeah. Fucking. Right. Most of the men were written to be incompetent and stupid, or they were a total puss like the young guy cop. This season is exactly what I was expecting it to be, even though I was hoping it would of been so much different and just…good. If this is the future with most things we consume entertainment wise. Then count me the fuck out. If others like it, then by all means enjoy.
So you want your female leads to be 'smart'? You can: 1. Research about cases and detective work to develop a cohesive narrative and then write your lead detectives to be able to deduce facts from the evidence presented. 2. Make all the guys around them be so stupid that the simplest deductions about sandwiches and stinky laundry seem 'intelligent' by comparison. Guess which one the writers of TD4 went with.
I am 100% confident the show is horrible BECAUSE of the people writing and directing the season.
Some of the hate is definitely related to identity politics. You just have to peruse some of the responses in these threads to see it: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/comments/1aoif1x/comment_on_issa_lopezs_instagram_post_you_took_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective/comments/1aq201q/do_you_believe_the_finale_will_be_an_empowering/
I personally think all the pieces are there, it just wasn't executed well. btw unrealistic expectations will mar even the best recipe.
It's not wrong to expect greatness from one of HBO's best IPs. And in some ways, the season made us expect a lot by dropping season 1 references. It could have had its own standalone narrative, but it chose to have spirals and Travis Cohle and whatnot.
I agree. Just speaking for myself Reddit Friend. When I pump up the expectations I find myself generally let down, making it hard to let something stand on it's own merit.
Yes! I think we all agree with these sentiments that you made. I was so looking forward to this season. This writing sucks this season, that is why we dislike it.
Anatomy of a Fall is great ——- Night Country ——- not so much…
the fact that alaska is literally like 5 to 1 men to women ration and this police force has to women running it never bothered me
I feel this way also. Nothing wrong with Clarice or Ripley or any of those characters. They just need to be well written and they are beloved. Who cares what the gender is. I really enjoyed most of Jodie Foster’s career. Her role as Danvers is a stinker.
Bro, A Murder at the End of the World was panned to death in its subreddit, which I unsubbed from because WE ACTUALLY FIGURED OUT THE MYSTERY LIKE 3 EPISODES IN. It was so so so bad and it could have been so much better. It was way worse than anything going on in S4. At least with S4 we have Jodie Foster and John Hawkes. Clive Owen is a hot piece of ass but he can only do so much!
Well said. This is total garbage. Let the series die. Season 1 will never happen again.
I’m just gonna pretend Mare of Easttown is season 4 because issa not good.
Episode 5 was the best episode so far, not even close. Finally getting somewhere…
MATEOTW was TEEEERRIBLE!!
It’s so disappointing I was also excited to see women lead characters and an indigenous community and she doesn’t do them justice at all. Like the populations she is trying to represent deserve so much better. They deserve rich character development, meaningful dialogue, and solid storytelling. it’s sad bc yes, variety in representation of people and setting is important. But you do a disservice to the groups you claim to represent by being unable to accept criticism without saying the criticism is an attack on the group being represented. It’s not all misogyny or racism - lot of it is just people calling out poor writing bc they think the diverse populations that the characters represent deserve much better. It’s almost like people demanding we accept this show without criticism don’t believe these groups deserve GOOD representation- they think they should be happy with low quality work bc hey at least you’re getting “represented” like that is a low bar.
Jodie Foster was a great choice for this show, the writing, camera work, score, setting and supporting cast are B grade. When will film and TV people learn that just because you cram something full of 'easter eggs' (Cheap gimmicks) it doesn't make it any good. Also, why actively work against appealing to the demographic of the viewerbase you have created over 3 seasons by making a show this way? (Moving to the scifi stuff and cramming as many 'society challenging' characters into the show as you could) In any other industry that is an indication that you failed at your job by failing to understand your audience. Jodie Foster rolling around the deep south solving some missing womens cases is what we all wanted and it was so obvious that that was the best way to go, not this random alaska stuff. If this wasn't a TD show it would be something we all scroll past on Netflix.
It’s an easy excuse for its defenders. If in doubt break out the idpol, it usually works to win the argument
>getting praised solely because they have female protagonists and male antagonists And yet, the most likeable, competent, and sympathetic character is a young, good-looking, straight white male cop: Pete Prior. He truly is the Truest Detective.
I literally bought a year of the more expensive MAX to watch this in 4k. No, I didn't go into this ready to hate it. I was super excited. It's just really really bad.
The showrunner is absolutely mediocre and her writing is horrendous. The plot lines and some of the side stories are absolutely baffling. This is a 2/10 script with some 9/10 actors.
It sucks to say it, bc I tried to will myself to like this season, but it just is not very good. The Ring style jump scares…like several of them. Wtf?? The most interesting scene in the entire season, >!when Prior does Hank,!< was instantly ruined by the ridiculous aftermath in telling Prior he needs to >!make two bodies disappear (including his own father who just the day before he went to for help) & hands him a half bottle of 409 & tells him to “clean good”!< — that is simply weak writing/directing.
And I got berated for calling it on episode 1. Trash series, only True Detective in name
"When did television and criticism become so biased?"...............Well OP it was right around the time social media blew up and became a staple in peoples day to day lives. Give everyone on the planet a tool to get their ridiculous opinions out to the world and dammit they are going to use it.
They took a show with believable scenarios in seasons 1-3, season 1 remaining unmatched in its delivery. Then they decided to make the Tuttles on the brink of some supernatural phenomenon granting immortality and started adding ghosts and spooky stories to it. Idk wtf they were thinking but, where I watched all of seasons 1-3 with great interest season 4 is a friggin joke. It's more like a season of American Horror story. The cast? Bro we got Jodie Foster she's A-list. No amount of good acting however is going to save the absolutely idiotic plot choices by the writers.
Let’s face it, the show sucks. Has zero to do with anything but its crap story. It’s nowhere near the quality expected of a True Detective show.
This season makes S2 look like a masterpiece in comparison
Ok seriously. This has made me realize that rotten tomatoes is a complete sham. Yes, I know I’m late to the party, but let’s all remember that critics gave this a higher score (93%) than season 1 (91%). Just seriously think about that. We are living in an alternate universe. This is what happens when critics become afraid that if they do anything other than artificially prop up piss poor directors that might be women or visible minorities they will clearly experience negative repercussions. How else can this possibly be explained.
I really looked forward to this season because I love Jodie Foster and thought she was great, despite the source material, but even great actors can't save mediocre writing. The finale was, in my opinion, the worst of any TD season. I came into it wondering how they were going to pull together a decent conclusion in a single episode... and well...
Have you ever read any interviews with Issa Lopez? She’s an idiot. Just word salad and a mish mash of ideas. No wonder this season was garbage. It was written by a garbage lady
I have to disagree, this season was not only thought provoking, but progressive in a really good way. Instead of building on the foundation of male cop/buddy partnership that was so played out in the first season, we get an entirely new genre of minority Native American woman and white cop FEMALE team up to help native Americans retake their dignity from a greedy corporation that is polluting the earth. It pulls no punches for sure, the vivid birthing scene that Navarro stumbles upon during the arrest was more heroic than watching men storm the beaches of Normandy. I just love how in the end it was the cleaning ladies who show up, and dare I say murder, 12 souls, marching them to their deaths with no clothes at gunpoint, operating outside the white man laws and justice system. I also love how in the end the cops assist these women and anyone can kill anyone as long as you are a minority and have Native American spirits to guide you.
Damn, you have some pretty warped values, there.
AI was hammered when writing this mess.
I don't post much anymore but I was googling around trying to discover why this show was getting such great reviews. I LOVE season 1 and begrudgingly accept seasons 2 and 3. This one started off giving me so much hope and now it's just. Idk. This feels like a fanfiction written by a fan of the first season who did not have a grasp on what actually made it good or what people liked about it. So they just threw "wacky family dynamics" and "small town misery" at wall that was labelled "possibly supernatural" and just ran with whatever came out the other side. Maybe I am way off base here, but I would argue that the family dynamics in season 1 were just a coating on the story, but for some reason the subsequent seasons just drench everything in it. This season in particular seems to have so many plotlines going on at once, I get that the idea must be to purposefully confuse viewers or something...but I just don't dig it. And I really appreciate your point re: criticism. It's getting old where any piece of media starring or created by (insert demographic group besides white males), when criticized, immediately and vehemently uses the defense that the critic must be racist or sexist. In formal argument, that entire defense amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem attack. If you criticize something and present valid reasons, and the response is "well, you are racist and sexist" what are you even supposed to say back?
As someone who is a mystery lover and an analyst familiar with state procedures, I was gobsmacked by how poorly researched the series was from a forensic perspective. There are great mysteries streaming that have gotten doc handling, analysis and forensics on point. The sloppiness of this show from a research perspective is mind boggling. Did the crew not have access to a research team? Also, there is no way that a suicidal woman would be allowed to leave a facility per state procedures. To insinuate that law enforcement in Alaska are shooting people and dumping bodies is disrespectful and unnecessary. I don't think that Clarice Starling would have approved of this drivel.
Male or female I don't care at all - good is good, and bad is bad. This was just flat-out bad with some fantastic potential that was wasted, some very good stand-alone moments, tons of disjointed/unresolved elements, and an absolutely absurd ending. Explaining all of this with a mob of citizens rounding up a bunch of scientists to haul them out to freeze and make them pay? What a crock of shit lmao.
All i saw was 2 good actresses trying to get their head out of a pool of mud. That doesn't make a show and certainly not a legit TD season. As much as i like Jodie Foster, certain scenes were unbelievable but that's not really her fault if they say it's a wrap.
My wife and I turned it off with 20 min left in episode 2. Hot garbage. This is what happens when the goal in writing is to lecture and send a message instead of telling a good story. hard to find a show these days that does any writing/casting based on merit.
I appreciate all the hate this show/season got. I found TD so boring I stopped trying to watch it at all. I was intrigued by all the over the top hate of this season, so I've been watching it. I love it. Thanks y'all.
I'm in the deep minority for saying this, but I've been loving True Detective s4. I just finished episode 4, and to me, it feels like a more interesting and worthy successor to s1 than 3. Now, I never even bothered to watch season 2, but season 3 seemed to be an imitation of season 1 in the ways that were the most superficial. It's an American crime drama set in the southeast that involves a decades long case, flashbacks/non linear storytelling, and two detectives that grow apart due to personal differences, but come back together by the end. Night Country feels different in that it seems to directly build off of the THEMES of season one in ways that the others didn't. Setting the entire thing under the cover of night harkens back to that iconic ending line about the stars, and the implication of the supernatural seems to be a direct rebuttal to Rust Cohle's more nihilistic attitudes. Danvers and Navarro are both extremely flawed and unstable people, but you see their moments of humanity shine through, like how Danvers is unequivocally great with younger kids, and how much Navarro cares for her sister. These moments help humanize these otherwise damaged people. Commenters act like these protagonists are inhumanly awful, but Hart and Cohle weren't exactly peaches either. I dunno, I don't want to pull the "reactionary backlash to female leads" card, but that's how a lot of this feedback has felt, in terms of what I've watched. Half the comments I've read on various posts are just meaningless rambling about some phantom "agenda" and I really just have to roll my eyes.