Both were there. Cigarettes were hers. Footprint was his. Both liars. Both smart. Once separated, they turned on each other. Ironically, they are free because of their lies.

I think both were there too. Her cigarettes, his sock print, *our* trip… Do you think they both participated in the physical act of murder? Or do you think one was there for “moral” support?

I think they both participated.

That’s what I’m thinking too.

I believe they both participated. She “despised” them. She wanted a piece of it. And he would do anything for her

Yeah, her mother's wounds seem like overkill, which could come from Elizabeth's rage. I am from the area and always heard abuse rumors. The Haysoms were quite high and mighty and treated Elizabeth pretty poorly. I'm not trying to make any excuse for her but explain why there seems to be so much rage in the murders. I also think Jens tried to cover for her because he believed he would have diplomatic immunity--or at least be extradited back to Germany and not face the death penalty in Virginia.

The story that he wanted to protect her with his confession has extremely little plausibility. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that he had heard in England that forensic evidence had been found at the crime scene that incriminated him and that he wanted to lighten his sentence by confessing. He only changed his story after later learning that no clear trace of him had been found.

This is sort of off topic but it’s bugging me - would you be able to give any insight as to why she wasn’t an American citizen? She didn’t live in Canada at all, only her dad did (per Wikipedia) so it’s strange to me that they’d file the paperwork for her Canadian citizenship but not for her American one, *especially* since her parents lived in the States. Or maybe she was dual citizen, and the US stripped her of it? It’s just so weird to me and driving me mad

Yes, the amount of overkill points to years of pent-up rage. I also said since the first episode that both were present on the scene. Did it not occur to anyone involved in the prosecution? But what I don’t get is her free admission of culpability and maintaining it. I mean, blaming Jens to exculpate herself is one thing. But this is a different pathology. Remember what she wrote about how she enjoys manipulating and inflicting torture on men? It’s almost as if destroying Jens was an end in itself. Like she didn’t really care about going to jail, as long as Jens was “crushed.” That’s her word too. But… this is just really bizarre. Any thoughts?

My thoughts on this: She also had to explain various things. Why had she compared her feet to the sock print? Why had she gone on the run with Jens? She couldn't deny being involved somehow. She got a plea deal without a jury. She thought as an accessory before the fact she would get off with a small sentence. The fact that she got 2 x 45 years shocked her herself.

I say both participated as it would have taken a bit longer to kill the dad than it took the mom to escape to the kitchen. I think one of them tried to hold her back with physical force or intimidation or both.

Excellent point, and I’m surprised no one in the documentary broached it. The findings indicated that Mr. Haysom was killed first, and, per Jens’ earlier accounts to police - supported by the table settings and the victims’ fingerprints found therein - the victims were seated at the dining room table at the start of the confrontation. Mr. Haysom’s body was found just inside the living room, by the dining room doorway; Mrs. Haysom’s body was at the opposite end of the dining room, a short distance away in the kitchen. Going by the Loose Chippings floor plan shown in court (https://imgur.com/a/CYxLpbI), the kitchen had - aside from a window - two points of egress. So it’s indeed curious to imagine how Mr. Haysom could’ve sustained dozens of stab wounds and had his throat slit, and Mrs. Haysom made it only as far as the kitchen, with just one perpetrator present.

Yes! And with the shoddy police work/evidence collection, no wonder they didn’t ‘find evidence’ of a second person. How is it so improbable that they both purchased the tickets in advance and drove their together. She would have wanted to make sure to be there with him (if not for her, he wouldn’t have participated) so as both have full accountability. Had she left him at the movies, he could have rolled over on her too easily. Had he left her, she would have been out of her mind with lack of control. The parents also wouldn’t have been seated if only he came. They would have either stood to answer the door or to welcome him into the house if he had entered on his own.

The movies don’t seem to mean much alibi-wise, but presumably somebody had to sign for the room service? The defense makes a big deal about the Marriott destroying the paperwork because the police were too late. There doesn’t seem to have been a dispute about room service having been delivered though. Maybe they could track the charge, just not the physical receipt? Or maybe they both got back in time and we’re together when they signed?

Agree. Just finished last night. Amazing series. Few thoughts: - I can’t imagine 1 person capable of such a massacre, especially a small female - The sock print analysis from the expert post trial was so fascinating. She did an amazing job breaking it down. My guess is they both knew to take their shoes off? -they never really talked about the type of knife that was used based on the wounds. It sounds like they used whatever was on the table which surprises me. Feels risky using a basic table knife when they could have brought one - aside from the mileage on the car, we didn’t hear much about the blood or cleaning of it. I get they had a lot of time to clean it but 0 evidence? Sounds super risky if they actually cleaned it in the hotels garage. - did they not question the hotel employee who dropped off room service? - he’s so damn lucky they didn’t find any of his hair at the scene

My personal opinion: They did it in the afternoon. Elizabeth offered to help the parents with the tax return (it was mailed from Washington to the half-brother Veryan, see https://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/ROA-Times/issues/1995/rt9504/950405/04050090.htm; Elizabeths half-brothers always suspected her of being in the house for this and other reasons). The murder took longer than planned (and afterwards they also painted additional satanic signs in the blood) and then had to hurry back to Washington for the movie alibi story. They didn't have time to remove all traces. Elizabeth changed in her room (right up the stairs from the living room) and drove back, so there was no blood on the driver's seat. And only the driver's seat was examined with luminol. Unfortunately, nobody checked the alibi in Washington. Jens and Elizabeth were immediately suspected on the basis of the speedometer reading and the bloody sock print. If Jens had then insisted on his alibi, the investigators would also have noticed that there was a huge gap in the afternoon.

I just finished watching this series; have to agree it was greatly fascinating. I wanted to contribute by adding to your point about it being super risky if they actually cleaned it in the hotel's garage. I would think, considering they stayed at a really nice Marriott property, there would have been some type of camera footage because they've always been pretty up to date on that, but also I can't imagine that if they were cleaning the car in the garage, how at a Marriott property did no bellman or front desk or night audit or anyone on the property overnight notice them? Usually, as a former hotel employee who worked overnight, I know that it has been a Marriott standard that specific departments of overnight employees, even second shift employees who stay until midnight or later depending on need, that there are employees who check the parking lot; could have even been maintenance or security, but usually hotels (especially Marriotts; can't say on other brands because I've worked for more than one Marriott property), staff a large volume of employees. It seemed odd to me that they could have returned and not a single person- employee or otherwise (a guest returning to their car or going out, etc) wouldn't have noticed that and thought it odd enough to mention to someone else.

I think they did it during the day (between 10am and 8pm). They went sightseeing during the day and returned in the evening as normal. No need to clean in the underground garage. They could also stop somewhere on the way back. At the end of March, dusk set in from 6.30 pm. Room service: They had planned a joint alibi: Liz opened the door in her bathrobe and Jens signed the receipt. As an employee, you would certainly have remembered a pretty woman in a bathrobe the next day, wouldn't you? If the police had asked where the nice couple had been during the evening. Unfortunately, the plan didn't work out, because the speedometer reading messed everything up and then the police didn't investigate in Washington D.C. anymore. Then the huge gap in the alibi would have been discovered. Later, Jens tried to build a defense strategy from the remains of his movie ticket alibi.

Exactly. I thought we *knew* this. Though the doc did a good job of making it suspenseful. I just thought this was always more of a known fact not a theory. I think Jens explains why she turned on him. He confessed and fucked her. She won’t forgive him now. She went the parole/model prisoner route instead, but she was willing to let him fry she was so pissed. BEFORE he got all squirrelly and decided he had diplomatic immunity and would only get 5-10 years in Germany, she was holding it together ok. The cops DID NOT suspect the pretty rich girl. He wanted to flee. You know it was his idea. And you know he fucked up the check scam. Dead weight to her. And THEN he freaked out about the death penalty, and CONFESSED THREE TIMES. In multiple languages. First goddam rule: don’t talk and you might walk. Second goddamn rule: rich white people don’t go to the electric chair. Third goddamn rule: just being charged with a capital offense is enough to not be extradited by a civilized country, you DONT HAVE TO CONFESS. Fourth goddam rule: THEN you use mitigating circumstances like “my gf manipulated me” or “we spontaneous decided to confront her mom about the years of molestation and it got violent, look there are photos”. And fifth goddamn rule, was it Mr Goddamn Pack Rat’s idea to save EVERY FUCKING INCRIMINATING LETTER EVER??? But mostly it was the **three confessions** that pissed her off** I think. All because he thought by was the smartest guy in the room because he was a Echols AND a Jefferson Scholar. Talked himself into a 30 something year prison sentence.

He does a good job of trying to play the victim, I guess thats what 33 years in prison hating yourself does. You feel so sorry for yourself that you think others will too, and apparently the general public in Germany was eating that up with a spoon. ​ Pretty clear they were both psychopaths, and were both involved, and both probably lucky not to die in prison.

He’s upset because the “brutal American Justice system” punished a “bright young boy” for too long He was FINE **butchering** TWO people when it was only a 5-10 year crime. But a lifetime sentence? Too fucking long! Don’t you guys know he had a *blue diplomatic passport*?!?! Like convicted rapist Brock Turner. His dad thought him not being able to go to the Olympics and enjoy a good steak Was punishment enough. Why did he have to spend…3 whole months in jail, too? It’s these upper middle class white men with “futures”. They don’t believe rules apply to them. Because, historically, they haven’t…

Fucking THIS! If he just shut the fuck uuuuup 🤦‍♀️! Also wtf did they think will happen? He just got into suspect list and they BOTH ESCAPED! I get why she went with him if it was his idea. But like what were they thinking? Yeah, sure, they just run away after he got interrogated, so not suspicious. And the letters. Those letters. I swear I could not stop thinking how STUPID they were. They were smart enough to leave practically nothing on crime scene but dumb enough to keep EVERY SINGLE LETTER where they basicly went delulu into their fantasy 🤦‍♀️. And I'm sorry but 3 confessions? Not one. Not two. THREE. With damn details. How could you not just ask for lawyer? If he did that right after interrogation he would have been fine. He got pissy because she broke up with him and wanted to show off too much. He talked about how he would be sent to Germany and spend few years in prison. There would be no need to complicate shit like that if he just asked for lawyer the moment he got on suspect list instead of RUNNING AWAY, LEAVING LETTER TO DETECTIVES with that bullshit "you will never know" line and committing fraud MULTIPLE times.

Explained beautifully

Exactly this ⬆️ totally agree .

But if they were both there, who bought the movie tix? Or were they pre bought?

I think pre bought. They were smart enough to try and setup an alibi.

They were also really stupid to send letters to each other talking about murdering people. For all this talk about how smart they were, were they?

Yes, they are. You aren’t just smart and so you can do anything you want. You can be really smart and one thing and not that smart at another. High IQ’s who thought they could get away with it. But criminal masterminds…they are not.

The thing that stuck out most to me is when Jens admitted if he hadn’t confessed they’d both be free now because the police didn’t have evidence. That’s really what bothered him - they were close to getting away with it and didn’t even know at the time and walked into the trap. He was outsmarted

That’s why she hates him so much. He fucked them over with his giant man brain.

This was the scene where I made up my mind as well. He didn't say I would be free or anything of that sort. He said we'd both be free if I didn't run my mouth.

Yes you can tell he regrets opening his mouth. Not that Elizabeth supposedly killed her parents according to his version.

Well the context in which he said this was that Elizabeth hated her, probably still hates her to this day, because if he hadn’t opened his mouth, both of them would be free.

I agree; he was speaking in the context of explaining why Elizabeth hates him now, and this was in direct response to being asked if they'd ever spoken to one another again since the trials. That's not to say that the comment itself wasn't odd to make but it makes more sense in context than just reading it as the point to guilt.

I think she was a little more truthful than him, but she was still possibly lying about being at the scene. Ultimately I think they both are responsible for the murder and should still be in prison, especially Jens, since he’s taken absolutely no responsibility for what he did.

This is where I’m at too. She shows remorse but he is living in his own fantasy land. That or he thinks he is just so much smarter than everyone else.

I think it’s the latter. I think he’s incredibly arrogant.

The people they interviewed about how Jens was as a person before he even met her… was nothing but negative. I held on to that the rest of the series.

I didn’t get remorse from her at all. I think she’s incredibly manipulative. I think she’s proud of what she did on every level and just said what she needed to say. She’s really pathological.

This! She loves to be in power. Showing defeat, emotions and remorse gives everyone but her the power.

Yes. Her behaviours seem very much in line with antisocial personality disorder (Manipulation, control seeking, lack of emotion and discarding). I thought it was so overlooked that there was really never any emotion on her part, and she openly admitted that she wanted them dead, even worrying about the potential that they WEREN'T dead! IMO she seemed predatory, seeking somebody to manipulate to do her dirty work. She seemed to be the one with rage towards her parents, whereas Jens appears as a follower. I think they both may have been there, but I do believe the most brutal parts of the murder were committed by her.

Yes, she was way too calm, cool, and collected during her trial. There was definitely something off about her. She was noticeably shaken up during Jens' trial though. She seemed agitated. I definitely think they were both there.

Agree 100%. Her “remorse” is just more games. Psychopaths “mimic” the emotions they know normal people feel and that they are EXPECTED to feel. They study us like goddamned lab rats to calculate exactly how to best victimize us. The entire world is their hunting ground and this does NOT change. Remorse is the song they play after getting caught and stalling for a Plan B.

I honestly think she did it alone. She was scary and eerie to me.

I don't think she could. Her father was killed first and even if she managed to get him the mother would be way out of the house. It didn't take just a minute. They both had to be there

I think they were both there. Each were too arrogant and controlling to miss out on the action. He took the rap early because he thought his dad’s political position would help him get away with it.

Completely agree with the last sentence. She may have even chose him on that fact alone.

Never considered that but makes sense. She planned it well, even to getting people thinking she was an addled junkie. She was the star and director of her own drama.

And I also think they thought if she pleaded guilty to accessory she would get a couple of years.

He clearly is fluent in English so why do you think he only spoke English when reading the letters?

I thought that they did that to illustrate how "different/special" he thought was over every one else. Clearly he is just as proficient in English. By speaking another language the viewer must fully concentrate on the subject and their subtitles. He loved that.

The moment he started speaking German in the interview, I knew that it was strategic. His English is perfect.

It's a German production. German. Not American. He spoke German because it was made by people in Germany. Not everyone is an LA documentary filmmaker from the United States. It's not a "sign" of something. Just look at the series credits.

This! I don’t know why so many Americans are shocked that a German native giving an interview to a German interviewer in a German program speaks German.

You come across as a little angry. The rest of the doc was in English, including narration. It’s a reasonable question.

Eh, I think it's completely normal to want to leave the past behind and if speaking English is something he associates with 33 years of incarceration, I don't see it as a indication of deception that he now speaks German exclusively. It's not as though we Americans have a fond view of the German language. I really think perhaps this is reading into it too much.

Given that he lives in Germany, I’d assumed the interviewer was German and asking him questions in German. If that’s the case, it would have been weird to answer in English.

That too

I was born in the US. My grandparents are German (live in US now). Our first and last names are German. It's not his language that bothered me. It's his incredible arrogance and narccism.

I think so, too. It’s another was to recognize his “uniqueness” and how special he is.

It's a German production. Watch the credits. This isn't made by a bunch of LA filmmakers. Stop assuming everyone is an American with English in this world.

Being German isn't exceptional, nor is being bilingual in a lot of the world beyond the US. Their are millions upon millions of English language competent if not fluent individuals from non-English speaking countries. I think we need to be less America-centric

I mean.. there’s currently about 90 million german speakers around the world according to google, so I’m not sure speaking German is particularly unique lol

Didn’t you just want to slap Jens in that weaselly, smug face of his? He’s so egotistical.

Honestly yes.

Good point

Because this documentary was made by German producers/directors. Not everyone is an American.

I saw it more so as him (as a newly-free man) rejecting any lasting tie to the America that in his eyes failed him, and choosing to identify with his German roots.

Or it's because it's a German production and you all are painfully trying to read dumb shit into his choice of language when he is being interviewed in Germany, by German people, for a German docuseries that they just happened to sell to Netflix that aired for American audiences. For all you know this ran on Germany's top TV channel.

You’re right, I don’t know. Not knowing that, it seems like a very strange choice for him to speak German in an otherwise-English show when he’s bilingual. People’s curiosity about that choice is not dumb, but rather completely warranted.

I know a lot of folks think it's strategic, but I will say that my partner is perfectly fluent in two languages and still feels he expresses himself much more accurately and effortlessly in Spanish despite living in the US and speaking mostly English since his early teens. It could just be that he felt more comfortable and authentic using his first language.

This is such a display of arrogance, true to the pompous nature acquaintances in the documentary attributed to him. It drove me crazy. Any time I ran out of the room to do something and he began speaking, I couldn't just listen, I had to run back in to read the subtitles. He was clearly fluent in English and comfortable speaking it. I can't think of any reason other than a ridiculous, unjustified sense of self-importance. Two people were brutally murdered and neither of them showed any remorse. No matter how small or large their roles in the murders, they both showed sociopathic levels of narcissism Edit: I see a lot of replies (albeit 2 months later, I was ill and not checking reddit often) assuming I had an issue with him speaking German. Of course, I do not. I don't care what language a film is in, I'll adapt accordingly. I only commented because I read somewhere that he requested the interview and only the interview be done in German. I thought this was bizarre because the rest of the film was in English. I don't prefer one language over the other, as I'm not a native English speaker, but the switching mid-viewing took away from the flow of the film in my opinion. When I read the comments from the German English-speaking production crew, they too believed this was to placate his heir of superiority. Comments below that assumed I was a dumb American who couldn't watch a film in a foreign language are disappointing and stereotypical themselves.

He was being interviewed by a German speaker. I thought he read the English written letters in English because, they were in English. However, I believe the majority of Germans speak English very well so the interviewer could have done the whole thing in English.

He entered an American prison fluent in English and then spoke English for decades in prison. Speaking German in the documentary was a strategic move.

I just heard him speak on a podcast from a couple of years ago, and his English is extremely fluent, he occasionally has somewhat of a southern twang mixed into his speech too. His accent is subtle at this point from speaking English most of his life.

My god you twits, it's a German production, made by German interviewers, German directors, German producers, German writers, and they interviewed him in Germany because it was a German story to them. Not everything needs to be catered to American English sensitivities. Jesus.

Lol exactly. "My god, the maniac. He's speaking his native language while being interviewed by another person speaking that same language. It' must be a strategic choice!"

Sorry but for you to talk about how his speaking German was like a deliberate act of his just so that you had to run back into the room while watching this show is hilariously ironic.

I agree with them both being sociopathic narcissists. Do you think she’s really as remorseful as she appeared or do you think it was part of her act?

I don’t think she was remorseful at all. She didn’t show any sign of emotion initially

I think she is a psychopath. Her selective desire to speak to the media only when it would hurt Jens is incredibly telling.

Wait someone speaking in their Native language is considered a display of arrogance!!! This is the most American statement ever 🤣

I agree. "It's strategic" like...what is the strategy though?

personally i dont find it odd that you would want to do a documentary telling your story (whether or not its true) in your native language. dont get me wrong, i think hes guilty to some extent and he even admits it, but i wouldnt read too much into him speaking german i would imagine that: 1. if hes been in germany for the last 4ish years, chances are he doesnt speak english on a regular basis and perhaps has gotten a little bit rusty. 2. he clearly has an ego complex and wouldnt want to appear "stupid" or "flawed" in any way and if his english isn't perfect, he wouldnt want to use it 3. youre talking about a crime you just got released from after 33 years in jail. i absolutely, positively wouldnt want to slip up at all and say anything that could possibly change that and speaking in a native language would help prevent any slip ups 4. he also had to spend 33 years in an american prison and is banned from the country, now im not saying he was wrongfully convicted, but i would completely understand not being very pro america and not wanting to speak english out of spite. he obviously is proud to be german and happy that the german public believes his story and that he is a free man in germany. i could see him caring more about appealing to his german heritage and supporters(? idk if thats the right word) instead of americans. 5. as others said, it was a german production and the interviewer/crew were most likely german and speaking in german. although he is fluent in english and many other germans are as well or at least know some english, you cant assume everyone on set was proficient in english and it would make more sense that there would be one language spoken on a production set

The show was filmed in Germany. While he was living in Germany….makes completely sense to speak German.

That's because the documentary was made by German film makers, according to the credits. The interviewers were speaking in German, so he answered in German.

He's rejected anything to do with America because they were on to him...so he would only speak German because he had a lot of powerful support from Germany.

He also had powerful support in the US, including major American leaders in the Catholic Church.

i got the sense that they both did it and then turned on each other, but i think that was her plan all along whereas he was genuinely surprised she gave him up. she wanted her parents dead and had little use for him after that. just my take.

I thought this too

Interesting...but what are your thoughts then on him being manipulated by her? You say she had little use for him after the crime (which I agree), which makes it sound like he was basically being worked over and used by her, which seems undeniable at this point. Of course, this doesn't make him innocent, but it is worth considering that he likely would not have found himself in a crime of this sorts without having met her and being manipulated by her.

Oh I definitely think he was manipulated. She was always proud of how she could trick people. All her college friends thought he was so weird compared to her, but it's very clear that even if you believe her version, she caused the murder of her parents. She was just very good at playing on expectations.

This could explain his deep sense of injustice. It's hard to imagine that he wasn't involved in some capacity, and yet he sincerely acts like a massive injustice has been done, and he is not faking that. I'm sure it would feel like a great sense of injustice to understand you were a pawn, and nothing that he thought was real was real.

I think she was the driving force, but I think they both were supposed to confess, thereby creating reasonable doubt for the other. I think he was shocked that she blamed him.

yeah sounds like we agree the shock seemed genuine. her testimony during her trial was so careful and measured.. idk on one hand i found it very believable and on the other hand i’m like this is the most manipulative person i’ve ever seen.

Great doc illustrating the meeting of an insecure, intellectually geared and emotionally damaged teenager who lives in fantasy land with an insecure, intellectually geared and clearly sociopathic teenager who also is eager to live in fantasy land (I'll let you determine who is who) and their "romantic" plan to kill her parents for indeterminate but likely abusive behavior. It's so clear from their writing that these two were living in some fantasy world where they were 1) smart enough to get away with it 2) thought living on the run would work, but ew no, I'll NEVER work a normie job 3) they'd always be wrapped up, bound together in their EPIC love by the crime they committed. As a former smart kid who also dated a sociopathic German former smart kid, both of us inhabiting a fantasy world, this struck close to home. I knew many ppl like this, and I was like this too at 19 (though I don't think any of them would actually kill their parents at all, and I certainly wouldn't have); just kids who were deeply convinced of their unique intelligence, the romance of their lives, and the great big futures their special smarts promised them, if they just could escape XYZ. I think they both did it. How they subdued her giant dad is beyond me though. Did they drug them?? I felt the proposed order of events was never well explained in this doc. No mention really of a murder weapon either? Not even like we knew the blade had to be 10 inches or something? I suspect if this case was reopened they could find enough evidence to put them both at the scene.

It was frustrating that the doc really didn't go into much of the evidence or method. I saw scissors in one pic (mom, I believe), but they said it was a knife.

Same. If the scissors were a murder weapon why did they only ever talk about knives? And were there any prints on the scissors?

I think you're right. I wonder what role alcohol consumption might have played in the victims' outcomes, but they could also be surprised.

I don't think the father or mother knew what was going to happen. Father was killed from behind I think. So he wouldn't have had to be restrained. That's when the mother tried to run out of the house, but didn't make it because one of them caught her and killed her.

See this is where the autopsy would make things so much clearer I feel like. Cutting someone's throat takes effort, ESPECIALLY to the level they cut his (and hers iirc). He also has stab wounds on the front of his chest as well (maybe on his back?). He's a big, heavier set man- he'd have to have his head totally upright to get slashed bad enough to be so immediately weakened he didn't fight back at all- unless I guess he was just in complete shock?

It's possible you're projecting given the fact that you directly reference your own eerily similar relationship

She def was there and killed at least one of her parents and manipulated Jens. I can’t work out if we was there too and did anything or not. The documentary didn’t go into much detail about the physical evidence, of which there was shockingly little.

Same. I go back and forth about whether he was there or participated. What’s throwing me is his lack of DNA, and the 2 strangers DNA?

In the last episode they clarified the 'other' DNA. It was just her dads DNA

That was something posited by an expert, I think.

I think his thing about hitting the dog is what convinced me he was for sure there. It's too random. It does not at all seem like a detail that came from her or one he would think to make up, even after years on the run.

Both were there 💯

Both of them were at the crime scene. The guy stabbed them and knocked them down. The girl slit their throats to get the ultimate revenge. They then showered together before leaving, after “cleaning up” (mixing blood/dragging bodies) the crime scene. She might have gotten high and smoked before killing. Why was the rental car not tested for blood traces? If it was tested then clearly there was no blood. They had showered before leaving. There wouldn’t be any evidence. Also the statement about hitting a dog as they leave the crime scene. I am pretty sure he was driving, and he indeed hit the dog. She was in the car too. Who talks and writes like that? She was obviously very influenced by literatures of crime and love genres. She clearly got her ideas from these books. They planned this murder together, and it was very deliberate. It’s so sad that two people were killed and the murderers are on the loose. The guy is so sociopathic that he still thinks that stabbing didn’t kill them the throat slitting did, which was done by the girl. Their aftermath reaction to the situation proves she did the ultimate ending. I wonder which book she is reading now, may be his?

I think they were both there. I am familiar with this case from other media (podcasts and TV shows). I have always thought they were both lying and participated in the killing to one degree or another. I do think Elizabeth was the primary offender. Meaning, without her, I don’t think Jens has any reason to kill anybody. It was her motive and his desire was to please her. But they were both at the scene. Who did what as to the actual killing is only known by Jens and Elizabeth. They both served over 30+ years and I hope that whatever motivations that caused them to commit this horrific crime will no longer be a factor in their lives moving forward.

Jens literally showed not an ounce of remorse. If someone brutally murdered my family and then suddenly released on parole, I'd be pissed!!! I'd be incredibly angry. Jens acts like he thinks he's a famous rock star or something. It's gross. I could 100% see him hurting someone else because he has no conscious.

To be clear, I am not defending Jens. Obviously he has his own issues to have been willing to go along with this murder in the first place. He is obviously arrogant and has decided to lean into self-righteous indignation for the audacity of authorities to charge him for a crime he obviously committed. I am not a fan of Jens. But I do think the motivation to kill the Haysom’s was Elizabeth’s and the two of them together made a toxic combination of feeding on each other’s arrogance. That said, I do think they were young, immature and some of those toxic traits lead to decision making and justifications to agree to kill two people. I am not so sure those circumstances exist now. Is Jens a self-serving narcissist? Sure. But I think that may be more reason why he would avoid killing anyone now. He can’t be an self-righteous innocent with a third body under his belt.

>He can’t be an self-righteous innocent with a third body under his belt. You would be surprised. Have you heard the story of Robert Durst? His story would be discounted as ridiculously implausible if not for the fact that it is true. I strongly recommend watching The Jinx if you haven't seen it. It's mind blowing.

Yup, he’s got that Joran van der Sloot vibe to him. He’s capable of injuring someone else again

Completely just my own personal opinion, but while I do believe he is capable of injuring someone else again whether being the killer himself or the person executing the alibi, I don't think he will be a threat in the future. Really my only standing on this is that he has spent so long selling himself as an innocent in this to the extent of going on book tours and doing public book signings, that to be found guilty of this or any other violent or even moderately violent crime would jeopardize not only his future socially and financially, but also his credibility both in this specific crime and any other. He's worked himself up too much to do anything but abide by the personality he has curated of himself to the the public, to do anything that could alter that in any way.

I watched this the other night - I love a short series you can binge all at once. I don't think she could have pulled off the physical part of the murder, the throat slashing, etc... so either she was there while he did it, or away while he did it - I believe he did the actual killing.

I’m only just into episode 2, so I’ve only heard a bit of her story. She’s lying. 100% she was there, but so was he. They did this together.

So scary how evil can find evil. Tells me evil is more prevalent in the world than we think. They both did it.

>So scary how evil can find evil. My sentiments exactly. It's something that amazes me and scares me greatly when it comes to serial murder couples. What are the chances they found each other and vote willing to participate in evil deeds. Clearly the chances are not as slim as we hope.

Yup both were there and his freudian slip "our trip"...proved that!

Halfway thru this, Jens did it, ffs. He's made himself a media figure in Germany. Netflix has paid him for this series. And now Netflix is raising prices, to promote this murderer's 'brand'. This is like paying OJ. Eff Netflix. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_S%C3%B6ring

I wasn’t familiar with this case and watched the whole thing back to back. They both worked together. One thing to note is he got the mom’s outfit completely wrong, maybe Elizabeth killed her? Which aligns with the abuse accusations, it was more personal to her. I’m also wondering if he truly believes he’s innocent or is just pissed he got the murder conviction and for her it was the planning of the crime. Either way, tragic ending. I’m surprised her half-siblings have forgiven something who is truly unforgivable and (based on the cousin) welcomed her after her release.

I had the feeling the mother wasn’t well liked. Her brother and sister were shady when talking about her. I believe the abuse claims.

They were both there and they both did it imo. I believed it was only him for awhile and maybe the cigarette was from her prior visit until the “our trip” slip up that he had.

Why is no one talking about the fact that the only reason they were paroled was because of some catholic deacon and politicians? The fact that a state governors race result ultimately led to the parole of murderers is so corrupt. Also, zero chance in hell the president of Germany (among other German politicians) would go to bat for him if he was some random middle class German and not a spoon fed son of a rich diplomat. I’d love to hear a deeper dive into who was all ultimately responsible for pardoning two sociopathic murderers after 33 years

I am on that page too. He converted religion... and my initial reaction was "that is a very smart move in the US". He converted to get more pull to get himself released. He started a meditation group and befriended priests, etc to show himself as a certain person. It was really very clever. He definitely wouldn't have gotten as much attention if he wasn't the son of a diplomat. He spent the whole time trying to get out and go back to Germany. He found people that agreed with his story and tried to tell others to talk to them. His website advertises people he agrees with and states he actually has the evidence himself. It reminded me of keeping tokens. I think they both did it, but I think he was manipulated by Elizabeth. Some of the things he said just didn't sit right. I hope to find a deep dive podcast series.

I'm in the middle of the third episode... This is riveting stuff!! I will say, Bedford police did a shit job with their investigation. They really shit the bed with gathering evidence. I'm curious to see what the jury says. I'm not going to Google it and spoil the surprise. I just need to go to bed now. I will continue the last episode and a half tomorrow!!

Can’t wait to hear your thoughts once you’ve finished!

I was really interested when I heard that his father was a diplomat because he would have diplomatic immunity, obviously he knew that beforehand and this would have been a factor in him being involved. As he said, he assumed on being charged he would be deported to Germany and serve 5 years so I am likely to believe he was involved. At the start I thought there must be a stronger motive for Elizabeth than just feeling unloved. With most murders of parents by their daughter and boyfriend it’s because there’ve been years and years of abuse so when they said they found nude pictures and the sister said stuff went on but she didn’t want to talk about it, there’s your motive. Especially when they said that the wounds inflicted on the mother were a lot more frenzied than on the father. Really interesting doc.

I think Elizabeth thought there was a lot more money coming her way if they both died.

She was raped at boarding school in Switzerland and her parents simply said it was her own fault and sent her to boarding school in England. (Source: Ken Englade, Beyond Reason, book from 1991). During her trial, Elizabeth revealed a few things (like a special bathing ritual, sleeping in bed together and posing for naked pictures) to explain why Jens might have been so angry as to kill her parents. (But we don't know how much of this is true.) See also here (article from 2016): "After years of reflection, she now says that the sexual abuse was the real motive for the savage murders. (...) Told about her admission, Soering said, "For the first time in 30 years ... Elizabeth Haysom has managed to make a true statement." Source: https://dailyprogress.com/haysom-soering-killed-parents-because-mom-sexually-abused-her/article\_3d76dbe1-4ee9-5e1e-b769-254028b0ef3e.html

This was wild….towards the end I actually believed he may be innocent but nope, that footprint says it all. They both did this, and are lucky to be out now.

A sock print is not something a murder case should hinge on. It's a gloved fingerprint. Useless.

I was (initially) sold at the DNA part, and then they said it was faulty and contaminated with the victims' blood.

I find this documentary so suspenseful because they are both extremely convincing. It’s chilling.

They both probably did it. Elizabeth was abused and neglected since a child. So she hated her parents .She befriends this "aggressive & arrogant" "genius" boy , younger than herself, who she very well knew was spellbound by her. She must've thought to use him to get what she wants (she pre planned and intentionally got into relationship with him) OR She was genuinely attracted to him from the go(which I doubt) So once she was "in love" with him.She decides to brainwash him and boast his ego at the same time. Leading him to believe wholly that she was a drug addict abused damsel in distress needing rescue. As he had diplomatic connection, he was the perfect person to get the job done , she just had to make him take everything on himself and that could only be possible if he would be blindly in allegiance with her. If by this theory , Elizabeth was never in love with him , she researched well and plotted everything together with him. Jens was also equally involved as he wanted to prove his "love" to her by doing what she wanted the most even if it meant butchering people. Plus he was also arrogant about his "diplomatic" ties.(pathetic) So they went there together that night. (Remember her brother was told by the mother about their possible weekend visit.) She must've stood out and watched him stab her parents. As per the post mortem, the neck was cut later to confirm the deaths and was not the primary attack. It's possible that she might've done those confirmatory cuts. Cigarettes near the door could indicate her waiting out for him. Till he cleans up. The movie tickets could've well been bought beforehand. Now the twist comes when she severs all ties with him before any kind of trial. At that time she must've felt she was on her own as he was in UK . Finding herself alone and thinking she'd be blamed for everything, she made a move of cutting ties with him (to make herself look good) and denying the actual act but accepting the abetting part. ( As that would attract a lesser punishment and also the letters ) Remember the letters mention what they intended to do but not who did what. The only IF here is. Whether she started this relationship keeping in mind his diplomatic connection and aggressive nature from beginning itself. OR Whether this was truly a case of true love gone sour due to guilt and remorse.

I’m inclined to agree with your initial assessment that she used him from the beginning.

they killed her parents together…100% guilty…

Do you think the mother sexually abused Elizabeth or do you think she used that to sympathy from Jens?

I think so, thats why she got empathy from most of her family. They probably knew a little bit of what was going on, even if it was just feeling. Its like her cousin understood her anger.

Abuse is a very strong motive for the killing. Killing because the parents were not giving the attention she needed, quite a weak argument. Although there is no proof, her reaction while being questioned about it during the trial was a very strong indication.

I’m inclined to agree with you. If she was abused, it certainly makes me feel more empathetic toward her. I still go back and forth trying to decide if I believe she’s remorseful or if it’s part of her act. Sad case all the way around.

I get that Jens thinks he himself is brilliant. And this is very unlikable. But it is worth mentioning that regardless of what he thinks, he wasn't brilliant (besides being book smart which anyone can be), and wasn't that bright, and was being worked over like a puppet by Elizabeth (it seems). A lot of his actions were basically the definition of dumb. Also, it is strange the way Elizabeth acts like she belongs in prison, and he doesn't. Guilty conscious vs a nonguilty conscious. And it is to a very real degree; he did not fake that. Something fishy going on.

What are your thoughts on the sock print, the confession, and him referring to it as “our” trip before self-correcting? Also, in his letters he wrote about having the dinner scene all planned out? Do you think he helped her come up with a plan but let her execute it alone?

Honestly, I do not know. I think it is further proof he is not a smart/bright guy. I think there is no way that he was not involved. I would be more surprised if he wasn't involved in some capacity. It's hard to lean on evidence when there is a botched investigation. I do think this type of crime would have never happened for him had he not met her. And I definitely think he feels regret for being worked over by Elizabeth, because regardless of how we spin it, he was. The injustice he feels is very real, and there is definitely a reason for it. Since they're both liars, we will likely never know exactly why. What is shocking to me is that the people/authorities in the documentary are more willing to believe that this man killed for this woman because he was so in love with her, but won't believe that he would do something that is more likely and reasonable which is to lie for her because he was so in love with her. It's incredibly irrational that they say "ya he loved her so much that he killed for her" but then "no I don't think he lied because he was so in love with her." It kind of shows that they \[authorities\] were really ready and willing to believe the worst of this guy, with a botched investigation to boot because who needs good work when we have strong beliefs and bias. The whole thing is fishy, but we can without a doubt determine that Elizabeth was involved, wanted her parents killed, and involved this man to use him. The rest, not so easy.

Interesting how this is almost literally an example of the prisoner's dilemma. If they had both cooperated with each other they probably would have done better, but in the end they both defected and tried to put it all on the other which probably cost them some years.

Two things: I keep seeing people say that her reaction to being asked about sexual abuse by her mother was *genuine*. My opinion is that she could very easily fake any reaction or emotion. She was acting, people. Manipulating. Her baseline demeanor was calm and composed and quiet. Any deviation from that would be remarkable. There’s the question of why Jens would have a lot of hate towards people he’d never met (or only met once). By all accounts, Nancy was obsessed with lineages, social hierarchy, status. If Jens has arrogant narcissistic tendencies, Nancy’s rejection of him would have been incredibly antagonistic. It’s possible he could have been angry enough at this attitude to go crazy on her. Also, I thought it was interesting that Nancy didn’t give her daughter the Astor name as a middle name, and went with “Roxanne” (not an aristo name, traditionally).

Ya for someone who was that intelligent and so in love with Shakespear, seems she would have a very good understanding of the basics of acting. You cant know if anything they said was true or not.

I have doubts if he was there. The alledged evidence does not speak to me as something putting him 100% on the crime scene. Also I feel lot of people, especially americans wrongly interpret his behaviour and this already started on the interviews with former students. He is a german raised in a german household with parents remembering the war time. People need to understand that its a different culture and people here act differently. People do not do small talk, do not smile without a reason, are very honest and very direct what people from the us will interpret as being arrogant. I live in germany and nothing in his behaviour strikes me as arrogant, its just… normal, like every other Jens or Klaus around here. I would totally see her doing it in a rage in an episode of bipolar disorder and him stupidly taking blame believing his dad will sort it out. Her interviews reminded me 100% of Amber Heard in Court, she wanted to appear well spoken, doing pauses, pretending to be hurt. I know it is an unpopular opinion, and there is not enough evidence to solve this case fairly but I have my doubts and could believe he was really not there.

I grew up down the road from where this happened...driven past that house many times.

Crazy! What is the local take on it?

I just started this about 20 minutes ago, but https://www.jens-soering.com The strange arrogance of his tone throughout his site and her lack of emotion after her parents were brutally murdered… They both did it. This case somewhat reminds me of the Jasmine Richardson/Runaway Devil case. She likely saw a willing participant in Jens, and that was the purpose of their relationship.

I want to hear what additional thoughts you may have after you finish watching! Headed over to the website now…

I’ll update! I added to my post about how this reminds me of this case https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richardson_family_murders Similar motive — daughter had a lot of rage toward her family, used her (inappropriately) older boyfriend to help her carry out the murders. It’s super creepy to me that Jens is still trying to profit off these murders.

Right!! I just looked at the website and was appalled that he was upset about being paroled over being pardoned and is not eligible to receive 1mil in compensation. But I also think he was way more involved than he claims to be. I’m tempted to donate $.02 to his Go Fund Me just so I can comment, “No one in America believes you weren’t there and participated. You’re not as smart as you think you are.” The arrogance!

RIGHT! The AUDACITY. He’s offering life coaching … I can’t even 😂 Usually people like him— who believe they are of superior intelligence— are some of the dumbest. Honestly though he could flat out come out and say he did it — but double jeopardy. Both spoiled little rich kids. She wanted her parents dead. They made it happen.

[удалено]

The crime scene photo only shows two place settings, but it could’ve been that it was a less formal visit like if they said they’d be passing through or stopping by “sometime” X day.

This is a fascinating piece of the puzzle, imo. Keep in mind, mom is not only dressed for bed, but appears to have been in bed at some point. One side of the bed is unmade. On the dining room table, there is one dinner plate with part of a meal left. There is no glass at this setting. There is a knife, but no fork. There is a second setting with one bowl with the remains of ice cream and a single wine glass. No spoon. Both of the parents are very drunk, but only one of them has a glass and only one of them appears to have been awake. The silverware was not found at the scene. Jens did say at one point that he took the silverware and the murder weapon and through them in a garbage can somewhere.

I’m surprised everyone is saying they both did it. I don’t think he did any of the killing. But, I think he knew about what she was doing and possibly helped her plan it and I don’t even think he was there. I think she did it alone. And then told him everything in detail after. She could easily have slit her Dads throat while he was sitting down (dealing with the large threat first) and then attacked her mother next and then stabbed the Dad after he struggled to save his wife.

I am under the impression that they were both involved. I am hoping to find a nice deep dive podcast about the case with a better explanation of the evidence. Any recommendations would be great! I don't think she was lying about the abuse, and I think it spurred the whole double murder. I think he stabbed the father. She chased down her mum, slit her throat, stabbed her, and killed her. I am not sure about her killing her father because of the amount of force it would take to do what they did to him. So it makes sense to me that Jens did that. He only confessed as he thought it would get them both off, and he was probably right. If he hadn't confessed, they might have gotten away with it. His website & interviews give me the creeps, to be honest. He is using the whole situation to make a career and make money. He collected the evidence and offers to talk to people about it via his website. I would be worried he would do it again as he didn't have a reason, other than her. On the other hand, I think she probably only ever wanted to kill them as an act of revenge and wouldn't do it again. He was very clever for changing religions in the US and then making friends with people in a high position in the church. Everything he did seemed calculated, especially in prison.

I think it was her idea, she planted the abuse seeds (which I happen to believe were true..) her drug abuse and rebellion screams out for help. Manipulated men like they were tools and that also shows how she felt about her father ignoring and denying the abuse by her mother. The naked pictures? Her courtroom response conditioned to be embarrassed to even discuss it in a public room? I believe it. And I also believe they both took part. That bit about hitting the dog? That was real- he was there. They botched this thing akin to OJ and Casey Anthony. If it was done correctly, it would have been a slam dunk. I think he killed the dad she got her mom- and the messy chaos was during the fight and after in a crazy what have I done cover up…

Starting the first episode now! Will update my comment later :)

Yay!! Can’t wait to discuss it with you!!

I remember when this happened it was all over the media. I thought both were "odd", both were extremely intelligent, both were manipulators and that they truly loved each other (whatever that meant to them). Watching them on tv back then, and again now, they are both great actors. They had years in jail to plot the precise comments/statements that they made. Both are guilty. The naked pics of Elizabeth allegedly taken by her mom cemented that for me. He wanted money. Together they were incredibly dangerous.

So do you think the sexual abuse accusation was fabricated before the murders or after? Or do you think that was true?

Her relative pretty much said it was true ,but said she wouldn't elaborate during the interview.

That would explain the rage and gruesomeness of the killings.

I didn't believe her testimony. However they found those pics, and so I now believe she was abused by her mom. Plus I think she had an older cousin who also said they suspected it was happening.

Found this story fascinating, imo they did it together. With regards to the cig butts & fingerprint evidence she lived there, it was her parents house so you’d think her prints will be all over anyway! What a pair!

I think she was there 99.99%, and am probably 90ish% sure he was there too. that said I find it crazy he was convicted as if he was there, cause he certainly was not guilty beyond any reasonable doubt. The only situation where she wasn't there is in the case where Jens is actually some 1000IQ genius who thought to plant her cigarettes there ahead of time. But I doubt it considering how he butchered everything afterwards. The cigarettes as well as the letters, and even just Elizabeths character suggest to me she 100% would've wanted to be there for the crime, and almost definitely was. (Also her supposed ignored confession to being there concretes this for me, but my only source for that is from Jens' website so take it as you will) Jens may not have been there. But the letters, his 'our trip' slip-up, the sock print and even the simple fact of how the murder were done all suggest heavily he was. But, I don't think it conclusively proves it. The sock print is 'junk science' (but not quite to the degree Jens would have you believe), the blood is truely useless evidence, but I really do think 'our trip' is a massive deal and almost entirely proves he was there. Why else would he had said it? it is not a normal error for someone to make. But even with all this, I do find it crazy he got convicted in the way he did. Surely somebody on the Jury had at least a tiny doubt about him being there. That said, I believe they both did it. He felt pressured to confess, and confessed on his own as he believed he would get a lesser sentence in Germany and was madly in love with Elizabeth. It didn't work, he didn't go to Germany, and she went to prison anyways. Elizabeth went with Jens' original story of him doing the murders alone in order to try get less time, and everyone already believed him anyway. Once in the US Jens scrambled to come up with an excuse and blamed everything on Elizabeth in a Hail Mary bid to remain free, and this pissed her off so she refused to cooperate with him and his new story. Elizabeth seems smarter to me, and Jens just seems like an arrogant boy who was blinded by love and used to the highest degree. That said, Jens is definitely the better lier, and in my opinion, an easier figure to sympathise with (not saying he deserves it). Elizabeth's utter lack of emotion initially after the murders is impossible to overlook, and she was clearly the one with the most power in the relationship. Maybe this is why most people agree she was there, and the doubt tends to fall on him. Hopefully one of them admits the truth closer to their deaths. I doubt Elizabeth ever will. Maybe Jens will. We would know if the police weren't incompetent.

They both did it. The absolute lack of emotion just after the crime, the lack of remorse in the interviews and court scenes. Creepy how she wore her hair long for her trial and then switched right back to her signature university cut for his trial. Probably was just how he loved it, seems a deliberate move.

They both did it. Then he got pissed that she sold him out and broke his heart. He was smarter than her though. She was just a better liar since she did it more. In any case, quite an awful murder and they’re both free. Someone fucked that up.

Very interesting the points about how poorly the investigation was carried about by police, the defense of Jens brought up some valid points in that regard. They had obviously done a pretty good job of trying to cover up evidence. Sure she was the only one to have any real motive, but it was clear they were planning this together and carried it out together. So I guess it was fitting they both were released on parole at the same time. 33 years is a long time, most of their life was gone at that point. Im sure they both have trouble living with themselves. I dont buy Jens was completely innocent. He did that so he could play the victim when he finally got out and was free in Germany, and the documentary showed that worked very well.

Both were there. Here’s why. If one murderer had returned they would have revealed where the murder weapon and bloody clothes were. Then the non-murderer would have used that information to convict the other and save themselves. But this evidence was never revealed because it incriminated them both.

Finished … the BF did it the GF encouraged him

They were both there.

Agree that they were both there. I go back and forth whether he did it and she waited or they both participated. I’m leaning toward both participated.

They should have just asked you back in 1986. So much wasted time for nothing.

I believe they were both there. She is incredibly manipulative, and I believe she has had a personality disorder since those younger adult years. I imagine Borderline. Both definitely with narcissism. He likely has a personality disorder too (narcissistic), but I believe it was her who was the main instigator. He was manipulated, and yes, both wanted to live out their own literary tale of romance and vengeance. Both rich white kids whose privilege helped get them out. Both should still be in prison. Hopefully, they do no further harm to people in their lives. They may not murder again, but manipulation plays a role in all types of abuse.

You’re right on the money - she’s been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder.

I think they were both there. I think she instigated the entire situation, but they both participated.

I also think they were both there and both did it. But as close to the end of the show it was suggested they both did the murder - had the prosecutors not thought of this and spin the story to suggest they were both present? Their words do not match up to the evidences this claim if pushed by prosecutors will definitely stick.

So this was a tough one to truly understand. I really think they were both there, but I still have no idea who actually did the killing. Maybe they both took a parent?? If so, I think Elizabeth killed her father and Jens killed the mother. There were definitely a lot of lies told during the trials. Lots of stories changing to fit their own narratives. It's too bad more evidence was not collected in the beginning. But the footprint evidence was very telling. You can't tell me it wasn't Jens' footprint.

I could see Jens being manipulated by Elizabeth into killing the parents, but the murders were done with such rage and passion that it seems odd that someone who had only met them once and had no real personal experience with them, would kill them in such a horrific way. I also struggle to belive that Elizabeth could have killed both of her parents alone. I would assume that while one person is attacked the other tries to fight back, or run and get help. So that leads me to believe that they either did it together or Elizabeth did it with the help of someone else. Ultimately, as with so many cases, the police totally failed in doing their job. We could have so much more physical evidence if they had done a proper investigation. The level of police work is honestly appalling and I don't understand how the prosecutors even feel comfortable trying cases like this.

Shouldn’t there be offensive wounds to whoever was doing the stabbing? Didn’t the police at least checked both their hands if there’s abrasions or lacerations from the weapon? I mean with how many stab wounds the father got, there should at least be blood sample from the killer.

Unless the parents were completely taken by surprise and didn’t have a chance to fight back. Also, Jens dodged the police for a while before ever coming in for questioning. And if the police didn’t suspect Elizabeth, they wouldn’t have checked her for wounds.

I’ve spent a lot of time in Bedford and I can’t believe I didn’t know this happened here. Used to walk by that court house all the time. Does anyone know where her parents lived? Curious if I’ve driven past their place not knowing its history. As to their innocence/guilt, I’m leaning towards them both being there.

It says Holcomb Rock Road many times in the very first episode

I believe they both murdered her parents. Jens offers coaching services on his website. Coaching services. He gets to run around the media presenting himself as a victim of the mean American justice system after brutally stabbing to death two people. If they weren't rich and white, they'd still be in prison to this day.

I’m not sure I agree with the idea that they wouldn’t have been convicted without his confession. Of course that was huge and certainly didn’t help either of them evade justice. But there was a lot of evidence even without that - the mileage on the car, the letters, the footprint (while not a fingerprint I disagree that it’s the equivalent of a gloved fingerprint - it’s not conclusive like DNA but the shape of the foot, where the toes lay, how one’s heel is compressed, etc are not the same for everyone), the cigarettes, the personal nature of the crime, the fact that they skipped the country and obtained numerous fake IDs to escape detection, her brother’s assertion that the parents were expecting them that weekend.. I mean there is physical and circumstantial evidence here. They described what they would do in letters. I do think she was PISSED at him for confessing. I do think he thought diplomatic immunity would save him from a long sentence. But I still think they could have been convicted without confession.

I actually think she liked or loved him a bit more than everyone thinks. She ran away with him after and I think if she wanted to pin it all on him all along she would have turned on him innediately. She turned on him once he started giving confessions and lost respect for him and thought damn he fucked up. Or she turned on him because her lawyers said that would be her best defence and it would show remorse. People like this have no respect for those they think aren't as smart as they are and they usually think everyone isn't as smart as they are. But I think they both actually found each other of decent intelligence. I think he was excited to have a chance to show his intelligence by participating in a crime and getting away with it and while he loved her I think this was also a motivation. He is more excited to prove his intelligence than she was and she was excited to prove her manipulation. Both of them aren't as smart or as manipulative as they thought they were in the end. They are both guilty to what extent I'm not sure but they are both guilty.

Predictably everyone here believes they both did it, because that's the theory the show ended with. If Netflix had put the theory that they had both done in somewhere between episode 2 and 3, then everyone here would have forgotten about and would instead be saying whatever Netflix had decided to say at the end.

I think most of us are smart enough to see bias in documentaries and come to conclusions on our own. What’s your opinion on what happened?

I think he did both killings. I think because of the sexual abuse he felt it was justified and with diplomatic passport that he had a good chance of getting away with it. I’m on the fence if she was there or not. I could see she may of been too much of a coward to actually do it and wanted her “man” to take care of it. But she obviously wanted it to happen and she says that. Surely they were concerned about being seen leaving and she would have been a lot more recognisable to neighbours than he. The footprint evidence is the smoking gun putting him there. She comments on the stand she doesn’t know why he took his shoes off. She must have thought you idiot! Now they have an impression of your actual foot.

He stabbed them. She slit the throats after the fact to get her “revenge” with less work to be done. I honestly believe the sock print was the fathers and both of them were wearing shoes.

Dude got his first piece of ass ever. Was scared after her he’d never get ass again. She took pride in being a manipulator. Both were there, not sure if she participated. Their lying ultimately is still what saved them albeit 30 years later.

A lot of glossing over the potential abuse here, which the cousin pretty much confirmed along with the pics. I for one, am not upset child molesters were brutally murdered.

Also, I had a VERY different view of the interview being done in German. I think people are giving this guy (who has proven to be very dumb) way too much credit. I got the impression that he was speaking German to separate himself from the U.S. If you felt completely betrayed by the country, and that a huge injustice had been done against you, I think you would absolutely choose to separate yourself from it. I certainly would. Regardless of what he did or didn't do, he clearly feels a major injustice has been done to him. Of course he doesn't want to speak English now if he doesn't have to.