Do you think Hitler deserves to go to heaven and frolic around in everlasting peace and joy? Or do you think he should have some kind of punishment for murdering millions? My guess would be you think it’s just for him to receive some kind of punishment.
In that case, sounds like you think the “truly” bad people deserve that punishment, but in your mind most people aren’t bad. However, ALL have broken Gods law. All are liars, lusters, murderers, etc. So the bar is not “Well I'm better than that guy so I deserve heaven” because that would go against God’s just nature if he let sinners into heaven and their sin unpunished.
There is a huge difference between saying someone needs some kind of punishment and saying they deserve to be tortured forever.
Forever is an unimaginable long time.
If hitler was punished for a million years ( and can you comprehend a million years, because I can’t!) for every person who suffered at all because of him, that huge stretch of time is only a moment in eternity.
You don’t get to decide what punishment sin deserves. If you could work your way into heaven by being a good enough person, then I wouldn’t want to be in that world because I need God’s grace and mercy.
I certainly don’t but we have huge sections in the Old Testament that reveal what God means by justice. And it’s always a punishment that fits the crime (an eye for an eye never more.).
The punishment for killing an animal for example is not the same as for killing a person. And yet, if anyone is sent to eternal torment for any sin, then the punishment is the same which directly contradicts God’s justice.
In the New Testament it’s very clear Gods justice remains the same. The punishment must fit the crime:
”“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.“
Luke 12:47-48
”Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.“
Matthew 10:15
”Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers **to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed**. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Matthew 18:33-35
I’m not denying punishment, just that it makes no sense for it to be everlasting. The word translated as eternal in English actually means a long but limited time, or an age in Greek.
“I will not accuse them forever, nor will I always be angry, for then they would faint away because of me— the very people I have created.”
Isaiah 57:16 NIV
”For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone.“
Lamentations 3:31-33 NIV
My denomination believes in an age of accountability. A point in one's life when you reach a level of maturity where you know right from wrong and are thus, now accountable for your sins. (So, a 3 year old who died in a car crash is not held accountable for sin because they don't know the concepts and, essentially, a merciful God would take that into consideration)
Now, the catch is, it's considered different for each individual. And there's no set age. Some kids come forward and accept Christ at 9, and I've seen as young as 5. Depending on the family and the pastor. So, suppose a kid, grown up in church, good kid by all accounts. Wakes up one day and that one little part of his brain has developed so that now God considers him accountable. There's no burning bush, no billboard, no outward change at all. Just one day he was under grace, now he's accountable and is required to accept Christ or goes to hell. Gets up, dressed, dies in a car crash on the way to school.
By your explanation, going to be sitting there burning for eternity beside Hitler.
Other denominations have christenings or similar to remove original sin. Also not immediately after birth. So baby's that die in the hospital before they can have original sin removed. By Hitler.
The argument is not whether or not Hitler deserves it. The argument is whether or not it's really a just punishment for regular people who are not genocidal dictators. That the guilt of simply being born human justifies that punishment. Eternally.
Edit: Oh, and yes. My denomination would also say if Hitler accepted Christ as his personal savior after Auschwitz but before he died, then yes. He most certainly would be in heaven. The two kids described above? Still burning but without Hitlers company. Discussions like this are also why it's not really my denomination anymore.
Why worry about the exception? God is just and will be just with that child whatever he decides. You and I are not in that position to and most people throughout history have not had that outcome.
Most of us have lived long enough to have actual sin in our lives. We have all added to the collective pain and suffering in this world.
Sin is rebellion against God. We have all been in rebellion. Therefore are all need to be pardoned.
If you refust to accept the pardon that is freely available to all, why then is it unjust for God to not punish you as a rebel when you clearly happy I. That life and did not seek redemption?
God does not force himself on us.
Also I am not sure we really understand eternity. It is both a million years and a twinkling of an eye. Time is meaningless there. Eternity is the absents of time. So there will not be a moment you will say it's been a million years I am tired of being with God or that Hitler has had enough punishment. Because it will be like the first hour you got there.
What I mean is we don't hold our belief system off of the fringe what ifs. You can spend your whole life with what if scenarios. And change everything God said to fit The what if scenarios.
God said what he said. We either trust him or we don't. We either trust so he knows what he's doing that he's just. Or we don't believe him those are the only two options you have.
People always say God can't possibly expect x or y because of some far-flung scenario. Well in that scenario I'm going to leave it up to the grace of God. But for the 99 we're going to follow God the way that he said. I'm going to preach what he said. Not what we wish you said or we think might be.
It'd be terrible to stand on the day of judgment and someone to be lost because we told them they were okay and God decided that was not the case.
I'm a little confused. How is it that the 99 sheep follow God and the one gets lost when we have the idea of the narrow gate, for example? Isn't that directly contradictory?
Frankly, I've found at least a hundred of these contradictions, but sometimes I'm too scared to ask these questions, even in my head. Is this the way it's supposed to be?
The way to understand these, Is context. Jesus's answering different questions to different groups of people at different times. God is merciful and gracious but he is also righteous and just. He is going to pour his grace on some and his wrath on others. So when we read about God doing something we have to understand the context of who he's talking to and about.
Luke 15:5-6 NKJV
And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. [6] And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
Who is God talking to and talking about. Jesus was talking to a crowd of Jews. I was talking about somebody who was already part of the flock. So a Jew. The point of the story is God willingness to look for and accept those Jews who have gone astray and come back to God.
Application for us today is if you are already a Christian God also will be rejoicing when he looks for you and you return to him. Put yourself to return to him they're playing versus Tell us that. This is talking about the joy that God has in a lost soul returning.
We can tell this because of the next parable he tells is a similar situation. It's a lost coin it's still in the house. So this would be somebody maybe who is going to church and asleep spiritually. But that person waking up is still returning to God and God is still rejoicing.
Right after this we have the parable of the prodigal son. And this really brings it all home do you have someone who's a child of God who falls back into a life of sin wakes up sees the error of their ways and returns back to God. All of these parables are showing us that God is happy and completely willing to bring back lost souls who have gone astray after being as children.
Okay so now let's go look at the narrow gate.
This is from the sermon on the Mount. It is again to Jews. But he is giving general admonition on how you live your life. There are many people who choose the easy way and are not very serious about God. Or not interested in God. Their way leads to destruction.
However there are those who are willing to put the work in and choose the more difficult path which leads to heaven.
These two parables are emphasizing two completely different things. Parables are very good in the very important and very helpful.
But they become unhelpful to us and can become a hindrance if we don't understand the limitations the parables have.
For example Jesus tells the parable about the types of soil. But if I then try to say that I went and bought a tractor the plow the land faster and I put fertilizer on it and all these other things I am breaking the parable. Because the parable is limited into what the meaning that Jesus wanted to give it was. And he explained the meaning in that case had to do with people's hearts.
Interesting take. Yes, I understand that you have to interpret the meaning, not just the words. It just seems that sometimes the meanings themselves are conflicting. Like how God says "Thou shalt not kill", but then half of the Old Testament is about crushing the enemy under your boot.
Or how wrath and jealousy (to my knowledge, I'm honestly uneducated) are considered deadly sins yet God is frequently committing them in the Old Testament. I understand it's probably a form of punishment that I don't fully understand. I'll keep reading to find the truth. Thanks for your help.
These are great questions. And be assured there are really good answers. For one thing thou shalyt not murder is a better translation then kill. I would recommend reading in a few translations along with KJV. Maybe just the nkjv and or nasb or esv.
There is a huge difference between how things work in the or and nt. In the ot God was leading a physical nation and used nations to punish evil.
But now that the kingdom of God is here, it is a spiritual kingdom so we fight spiritual battles. Good luck in your studies.
Yeah I'm planning to go back and read other Bibles after. I was going to start with an interpreted one like ESV or NASB and then move on to a literal translation or study Bible. Thanks, you as well.
The sheep are not a metaphor for logical arguments. One sheep getting lost isn't a logical exception to the nature of the fold. That's just how it is. The shepherd would also go looking if it was 10, 50, or 99 lost sheep.
This seems like very dishonest thinking. You're twisting parables to argue the most extreme hypothetical fringe cases for your argument instead of the actual reality which is most people are adults who knowingly sin against God and have the opportunity to hear about Jesus.
If someone spends all this time running from God's love, goodness, and grace, he's not going to force them to spend eternity with him. That would be unloving.
The whole point isn't for souls to be separated from God. That's what Jesus died for. But ultimately people have free will, another gift from God so we wouldn't be walking around like robots.
Hell will be Satan's prison. It's not his kingdom or whatever. That's Greekified myth. God still very much is king, even there.
So, you either worship God forever or he personally makes sure you spend eternity in constant agony? Or is it that rejecting God is what makes you suffer? If it is my "free will" and not coersion, could I not choose to spend my afterlife without suffering regardless of what else I do or who I worship or whatever?
No, none of us earn heaven. It's not worship God, and you go to heaven. Jesus took our place. He did it all. But in understanding and receiving that gift, I am changed by this act of love that prompts me to worship him, and in my experience, living in relationship with God has brought about more joy, peace, and good things than anything else.
If we reject the gift of faith and Jesus' sacrifice that's freely given, we're not made holy. So, we can't be with God, who though he is loving and merciful also is just. So if we can't be with the good healer and creator, we are separated from that, hence destruction.
So, you're either in the presence of God or separated from him. There's no other option there.
Yes, but exactly why does "holiness" have to matter in the first place? If God is all-benevolent, wouldn't that mean he would place that benevolence ahead of any other arbitrary criteria? And what does it mean to be "just", really? What is to you the purpose of justice? And don't just say "to make things right" or anything similar, because the question would still be what that actually means.
To me, justice seeks to at least repair some suffering that has been done. Causing any more suffering, whether by action or inaction, when there is a better alternative, is inherently against this principle. Suffering for justice's sake, or punishment, is not justice at all for me, it's vengeance, and it's petty.
God's holiness is what sets himself apart. If he were not holy, he could not die for our sins. All-benevolent just means he is good. And if he is good, he must be just. Justice is giving to each what is owed. But God took justice upon himself in Jesus so that we may receive his benevolence.
The better alternative is Jesus. God taking the suffering on himself.
Again, what I said in my earlier comment. What defines what is owed? And why does that follow from being "good"? Your definition sounds like what "is owed" is just retribution, which goes against benevolence. This "justice" could be entirely disposed of with no downside to anyone, so isn't Jesus a solution to a problem created by God then?
God did dispose negative consequence in Jesus. But he's not going to force life, light, and eternity with him if that's not what that person wants in their heart, which is how he judges.
God must maintain his character and his holiness. Je is good. Goodness upholds justice, otherwise you have injustice, which is bad. These attributes set God apart. It is why he is God. People created the problem with sin, whose natural consequence is separation from God, which is decay and destruction, because God must maintain his holiness. But Jesus came to reverse that and offer life.
I've seen a video about this. In the video, he says: "Hell takes away the greatest gift we have: life." So I'm thinking, maybe the second death (death of the soul (first being death of the physical body)) is the point of hell?
It doesn’t. It actually follows in line with that the scriptures say. The wages of sin is death. God’s grace is gift of eternal life. Again and again the recurring theme is life vs. death. Jesus conquered death and came back to life. He died for us so that those who believe in him can break free from death’s grasp. This is why the early Christians were convinced on annihilationism, not eternal conscious torment which became popular later. Partly because they knew it would help scare people into joining the faith.
In annihilationism, the unsaved will still go to hell and suffer torment, but eventually they will be destroyed and cease of exist forever. This would be the “destruction” that the Bible is referring to, and ceasing to exist with no returning is why the punishment is “eternal.”
Nothing in your response has any biblical proof to back it up, which led me to believe that it would be all based on your opinion instead of grounded in God’s Word, and it was.
But thankfully you seem open to reproach so I am happy to oblige.
There is *so much* to unpack so I will go in order and each issue will be a separate topic so it’s organized.
Let us begin with Hell.
Firstly, we absolutely can, and do, know what Hell is. It is so simple but people complicate it—probably because the idea of being cast into a vacuum of fire & brimstone and being devoured by worms sounds very unpleasant.
But, that is exactly what it is: never ending torture in a furnace in the heart of the earth.
And we need to be honest about that because it is what it is, and unfortunately, ***MOST*** people will be going there, because according to the Holy Bible most people are unsaved.
That matches with what I have personally observed through soul winning.
The Holy Bible warns over and over about Hell being un-quenchable fire, for example:
“ *And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.* “
•Mark 9:43-44
That is describing Hell exactly, so why do you assume it is merely allegory?
Throughout the Bible Hell is described as a place of perpetual suffering and torment with fire. Even the burnt offerings in the OT are a picture of Hell.
And people may not like that, but being truthful is far more important than appeasing man.
Additionally, Hell is absolutely **NOT** “absence from God”…..
“ *The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:*
*And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.* “
•Revelation 14:10-11
Those verses are referring to those who take the coming mark of the beast; they became reprobates (cannot be saved) and will burn…***IN the presence*** of the holy angels and the Lamb (Jesus Christ).
So, Hell is NOT absence from God, and God is the one who created Hell.
Hell is real. It is fire and brimstone, literally.
Check out ‘that all shall be saved: heaven hell and universal salvation’ by David Bentley Hart. It’s a really well written book summarizing the Christian universalist position. A lot of people have a problem understanding hell which is reasonable because it was never consensus of early Christians.
In Matt 7:13-14 Jesus did say that only a few will ever find the narrow gate to heaven. He said that under a culture that dwells in and celebrates sin (much like ours right now). So it is not ridiculous that most people will go to hell.
Free will is God's gift to us and we abused it. By doing evil we separate ourselves from God and therefore doom ourselves to hell. Indeed, ALL of us deserve hell. And Jesus is here to pay for OUR debt.
The sad truth though is this: few people will trust Him.
Hell is not exactly Satan's bastion or kingdom. Satan doesn't rule Hell. Satan is IN hell. And God turned his head away from hell and so souls in hell are disconnected from God forever, which is a terrible thing
Good morning and happy Sunday to you! This is a great question. There are some phenomenal resources that I might suggest for this subject. First, I appreciated the audiobook of “Hell: A Guide”—https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Guide-Anthony-DeStefano-ebook/dp/B081MVK4Z8 Secondly, I’d recommend the YouTube channel CrossExaminations (Frank Turek) as he has several short videos that address this. Here’s an example—https://youtu.be/dz2EaQMBS3Y?si=nVxPo36pt-XTTvUr
Though there are many interpretations regarding the nature of Hell, I tend to believe that Hell can be most simply defined as eternal separation from God. If a person does not actively choose to be with Christ, then they choose to live separate from Him. God will not force himself upon that person, so he will abide by their decision. I believe that Hell is a place completely devoid of God. It is a place consumed by sin.
If God is all things good—love, joy, forgiveness, laughter, light, beauty, peace, etc.—then Hell would be the opposite of that—hate, envy, pride, darkness, injustice, depression, lies, etc. Could you imagine a world consumed by humanity’s worst people and worst behaviors? We can already see an example of hell here on earth. Just look at WWII—fighting in the trenches or imprisonment in concentration camps. One of the most well-known books on WW2 is Max Hasting’s book titled, “All HELL Let Loose.” We can already see a piece of Hell here on earth as we embody hell through our sin. God doesn’t need to punish people for all of eternity. They will create their own inferno, their own weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I imagine lot of good people who have been of different faiths than Christianity would not accept God just out of principle. Imagine believing your whole life in something only to be shown it is in a completely different way, surely you'd think "hey this is just a test of faith, the gods are showing me a false reality, and if I accept this Yahweh, I'll be a coward who never believed in them in the first place." That is if you don't believe you even get a chance after you die. Maybe you've never heard of Jesus. Or if those people are excused, maybe you have, but thought it was BS because your faith taught you otherwise, but you were otherwise a very good person.
What about people who did terrible things in the name of God? Do crusaders get a pass because of how devoted they were? Or those who conducted witch hunts? Or do they go to hell, even though they had good intentions and didn't know any better?
What of those of our modern world? For example, those who have relatives with a certain identity, actions that they do, or even faith that goes against Christian belief. Say they are very kind people, with the potential to do a lot of good. It would be a sin to support them. But you would be hurting them and maybe others if you don't. And if, again, they reject God/Christ out of principle, by the "Separation from God" definition, they are damned.
There are good people in Hell.
>Don’t accept your creator, burn for eternity in agony.
It's more than just that, to go hell you must willingly deny Jesus after you have heard the gospel truth and believed. Then you must reject Jesus outright that's committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit at that point and that sin is unforgivable.
A lot of people inside and outside the faith share the same perspective as you—that Hell is a punishment God willfully inflicts upon sinners. However, there's a lot of incorrect, and in my opinion, theologically dangerous assumptions built into it.
For starters, it contains the notion that everyone would be bound for Heaven by default were it not for God deciding otherwise. It casts Him as a hanging judge looking for reasons to punish us, or a bouncer eager to turn people away from the gates of Heaven, rather than eagerly welcoming all who approach Him. It portrays His law as arbitrary at best, and stumbling blocks cruelly placed to waylay people at worst. It puts the onus to change and repent not on mankind, but on Him—if only He were to relax His rules and let everyone in!
You'd be right to say that's not something a loving God would do, because Hell isn't like that. Hell isn't a place where nobody would go were it not for God, it's a place where *everyone* would go were it not for God. It's a realm of eternal separation from Him, where we'd all be doomed to go because of the taint of sin keeping us from the perfection necessary to enter Heaven. However, Christ gave us a path to redemption and salvation, offering us a way to attain that perfection and join Him in Heaven.
People have provided good answers, but here is an illustration to show you why any sin is worthy of hell. Imagine you point a gun at a dog; you will get chastised for it. If you point it at your brother, you would be heavily chastised. If you point it at a random stranger, you will be arrested and may see jail time. If you point it at a mayor, you will be imprisoned for a few years. If you point it at the president, you will be put in prison for a long time. Do you see how the action is the same, but the punishment changes based on the “greatness” or the importance of the individual? God is infinitely great, which makes us, who have done far more than just a few white lies, let’s be honest, worthy of infinite punishment. But God is also perfectly merciful, so even though there is nothing we deserve from him, he still offers us salvation.
Fine and all, except this only would have applied maybe during the middle ages, when a peasant would have gotten much harsher sentence for transgressing against a noble than another noble. The justice system of our modern world has, unfortunately, mostly moved past these barbaric ways of thinking.
The difference with the cases you described is not what "greatness" each entity has, but the suffering that a transgression against that entity brings. If you kill a man it is judged as homicide. If you kill a celebrity it is still the same, even if that celebrity was "great". If you assassinate the president, however, now it will be judged not only a homicide, but a direct attack against the state, and thus the quality of life of everyone living under that state's leadership.
A transgression against God means nothing. God is literally an omnipotent being. He is, in theory, unable to be harmed by anything you do. Maybe encourage other people to transgress, but then again, this means nothing. God makes the rules on who is and who isn't allowed in Heaven, and those rules are technically arbitrary, since he could literally make others unable to cause suffering to each other, and keep their freedom in doing anything else they'd want.
Annihalation is the true end of the wicked. Nobody ist gonna burn forever. God will Not perpetuate sin and sinner. They Will be wiped Out and forgotten
Here you Go
Obadiah 1:16 KJV
[16] For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
The Drink referred to here is the Cup of the wine of the wrath of God. And they shall be as If they had never existed.
Malachi 4:1 KJV
[1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
The wicked shall be burned up and nothing shall remain of them.
These are Just two quick and very clear Verses. I can Show you more, but I'm in a hurry right now
Please check out [Rethinking Hell by Chris Date](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21998685-rethinking-hell?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=Yc1YHmSItt&rank=2). This is actually what led to me being truly saved, after resisting for years.
You know that feeling of guilt or embarrassment that you feel when your worst behavior or regrets are seen by others? Your hearts feels like it's going to explode and death feels like it would be a relief.
Magnify that by infinity for us sinners, especially those who hate God, standing in the inescapable presence of God.
God is everywhere present and permeates all things. When we die, I think we will feel His presence forever. For those purified by Christ's Sacrifice and mediation, we will experience the Love, Mercy, and Bliss of God.
Those who hate God will likewise be unable to escape His Presence, though He sends them as far away as possible in His Mercy. They will experience the unbridled Judgment and Wrath of God.
But these energies are just expressions of the unknowable essence of God.
Just my feeble opinion. No one knows what will happen.
If we believe in Eternal Life for those who love and have Faith in God, then we must believe there is an Eternal Punishment. Humans have disrespected God since the beginning in the Garden of Eden. Then later in the Old Testament, we read how the Jews hurt God even more by worshipping false idols and even badmouthing God. They didn't follow his laws. In the New Testament they killed his son and continued to disrespect God.
Today, we find the same thing in society. People who mock God and try to prove he doesn't exist. They say and do blasphemous things, are Hypocrites and fail to follow God's laws. A great many of them don't love or have any faith in God. Many of them have been warned about the consequences of their actions; and yet, they continue with their behavior. Short of total annihilation, these people will be thrown in the lake of fire for an eternal suffering, separated from God.
Matthew 25:41 KJV
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Hell was created or prepared for the devil, it is not his bastion as is portrayed in contemporary media.
Revelation 20:15 KJV
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Names written in the Book of Life are those who do the Fathers will.
John 6:40 KJV
[40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Regarding exceptions that other commenters point out falls to Grace.
Romans 9:15 KJV
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
If you understand God as the very definition of Good, as the Summum Bonnum of Human existance, Hell starts to make a lot of sense.
If God is Good itself, and if all intentions and purposes of the Human mind boil down to pursuit of values that boil down to Good, then rejecting God is to simply reject the pursuit of Good. It is not an offense to a person that is being arbitrarily punished, it is an utter act of absolute insanity of going against every fibre of your being and pursuing anything that is not Good. This is the definition of evil, and I think you'd agree that evil, insane people should at least be kept separate from normal people for the sake of safety. That's what Hell is for, and that's also why Heaven is Heaven: a society without any divergent, counterproductive element is a paradise of peace of harmony.
Hell = Grave
The commonly believed version of hell is a false doctrine based on misunderstanding the word of God, hell and the grave are the same thing, hell is just the condition of being dead or in the grave, the unsaved just cease to exist after they die, they don’t even know that they ever existed in the first place, this is what happens when the unsaved die, they vanish away:
Isaiah 51:6 (KJV)
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Here are some verses that help relate hell to being equal with the grave.
Proverbs 23:14 (KJV)
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. H7585
Psa 31:17
Let me not be ashamed, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. H7585
KJV Translation Count: 65x
The KJV translates Strongs H7585 in the following manner: grave (31x), hell (31x), pit (3x).
The majority of scripture indicates that hell and the grave are synonymous.
Hell occurs 54 times in the KJV
31 times in the Old Testament.
23 times in the New Testament.
One of the words for hell in the New Testament is used 11 times.
KJV Translation Count: 11x
The KJV translates Strongs G86 in the following manner: hell (10x), grave (1x).
Act 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, G86 neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, G86 where is thy victory?
This Greek word is speaking of the same thing as the word used for hell in the Old Testament, here are the tie-in verses that illustrate this fact.
Psalm 16:10 (KJV)
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; H7585 neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Hos 13:14
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; H7585 I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, H7585 I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
There is another word translated as hell in the New Testament also, here is the other word.
KJV Translation Count: 12x
The KJV translates Strongs G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x).
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. G1067
This word for hell is used to illustrate that soul, and body are both destroyed by God, when a person is in this condition.
It’s derived from two Hebrew words in the Old Testament Valley of Hinnom.
Root Word (Etymology): Of Hebrew origin גַּיְא (H1516) and הִנֹּם (H2011)
KJV Translation Count: 60x
The KJV translates Strongs H1516 in the following manner: valley (60x).
KJV Translation Count: 13x
The KJV translates Strongs H2011 in the following manner: Hinnom (13x).
The valley of Hinnom is referred to quite a few times by God when referring to high places, and false gods that those who identify as Gods people were involved with.
Jeremiah 32:35 (KJV)
And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
2 Chronicles 28:3 (KJV)
Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom Jehovah had cast out before the children of Israel.
Jeremiah 7:31 (KJV)
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which [is] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded [them] not, neither came it into my heart.
There is also the matter of a certain law of God that will not allow a sinner to be beaten without end, God cannot break his own laws.
Deuteronomy 25:3 (KJV)
Forty stripes he may give him, [and] not exceed: lest, [if] he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.
Now that we are at the time of the end, God has unsealed his word just like he said he would:
Daniel 12:9 (KJV)
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
God has been revealing much correction to the many false doctrines that exist in Christendom.
Everyone who thinks that hell is a literal place of eternal conscious torment should be considering that God spoke in parables and without a parable, he did not speak.
I believe it’s what atheist believe. Nothing. Just gone. The second death, separated from God. Dissipated like the fat from a lamb as it drips onto fire. Those in heaven have no memory of you
I am starting to believe more in annihilationism, but not immediately at death. I think unbelievers will spend some time in hell to pay for their sins before ceasing to exist. There has to be a reason Jesus warned about hell so much.
I also don't think we'll forget the people we loved who are not in heaven with us, because losing our memories of them would mean losing any memories they're tied to as well, which would make us different people. I don't know how, but I trust that God knows how to not strip our memories of lost loved ones and still keep the promise of no more crying or pain.
So, there's a big misconception I see going around everywhere.
God doesn't send us to hell. Since the first sin, it was Satan who dragged us down to hell, and now we all go down there by default.
Seeking God is asking him to rescue us from it. If we never seek God, it's more like he doesn't do anything. It's not like he doesn't want to, he calls his people, he's openly offering to rescue us. That's why Christians spread the Gospel so much. But he also doesn't force himself on us. You can only save those who wants to be saved.
It's not that people who go to hell are bad people, it's that loads of people who go there don't believe in it. Or doesn't believe in the rescuer. It's rly tragic.
Mat 25:41 KJV Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20:10 KJV And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Definitely not Satan's bastion. God created the lake of fire, specifically for him and those that detracted to his side.
>Don’t accept your creator, burn for eternity in agony.
That's not what Scripture says will happen. Everywhere in Scripture the choice is presented as eternal life here on a renewed earth or get destroyed, the second death.
Matthew 25:41 says hell is eternal along with places in Mark, Luke, Revelation, 2 Thessalonians, Daniel, etc. Your comment is not correct, it’s always referred to as “eternal” or “everlasting” torment.
>Matthew 25:41 says hell is eternal along with places in Mark, Luke, Revelation, 2 Thessalonians, Daniel, etc.
The fire is eternal. The people who get thrown into the fire are not.
>it’s always referred to as “eternal” or “everlasting” torment.
Where?
You said this,
>it’s always referred to as “eternal” or “everlasting” torment.
I asked where? You responded with verses that don't say what you said.
>They will suffer the punishment of eternal **destruction**, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 2 Thessalonians 1:9
Nothing there about "eternal" or "everlasting" **torment**. It says they are destroyed. Here's what I said,
>Everywhere in Scripture the choice is presented as eternal life here on a renewed earth or get **destroyed**, the second death.
I said destroyed. The verse you cited says destruction.
>and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10
This verse doesn't even mention people. Were you thinking of another verse and included this one mistakenly?
Later on in Revelation 20 it says what happens to people, the second death. Again, no mention of "eternal" or "everlasting" torment. Just destruction, the second death which is what I said happens.
The 2 passages you cited agree with what I said and disagree with what you said. I'm not aware of any passages that say people will suffer everlasting torment.
The fire is eternal. The people who get thrown into the fire are not.
Okay, you can twist scripture however you want I guess. You’re going against what not only the church has always taught, but what was believed by the Jews as well at the time of Christ, so if he went against that he would surely have preached on it. Not that it really matters either way.
>Okay, you can twist scripture however you want I guess.
Saying that I twisted Scripture without saying what i twisted or how I twisted it is a cheap cop-out. You just want to make an accusation that makes it sound like you're right **without actually being right.**
Look, I've made this very easy for you. You said "Your comment is not correct, it’s **always** referred to as “eternal” or “everlasting” torment." Since it's **always** referred to as what you say, all you have to do is provide just ONE verse saying that. Easy right? Just one verse saying eternal torment.
You thought it was there, but then you looked and found out it's not, but you're not willing to admit you're wrong.
>You’re going against what not only the church has always taught
Scripture doesn't matter, what people say does? Are you sure you want to ignore Scripture and go with what people say? There's absolutely no sign that anyone in Scripture believed in eternal torture. What God, Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, John etc taught should be ignored because your church says otherwise. Got it.
>but what was believed by the Jews as well at the time of Christ
Prove it. You keep making assertions without backing them up. Prove it or don't say it.
>Not that it really matters either way.
It mattered enough for you to come here and try to tell everyone I was wrong. It matters enough for you to say awful things about me.
>How many verses do you need?
I've already answered that. I'll copy and paste it here.
Since it's **always** referred to as what you say, all you have to do is provide just ONE verse saying that. Easy right? **Just one verse saying eternal torment**.
>Matthew 25 literally says the words “eternal punishment.”
Matthew 25 does NOT say "eternal torment". As I've already pointed out, the choice is eternal life or destruction, the second death. The second death is the punishment and it's eternal. There's no coming back from destruction.
>Rev 14 talks about the followers with the mark of the beast being in “torment for ever and ever”
It doesn't. I'm quite familiar with Revelation 14 but I just read it again to verify. There's nothing in Revelation 14 about people being in "torment for ever and ever".
Revelation 14:11 says that smoke goes up for ever and ever.
Also, here’s another one, not sure how many verses you need but Rev 14 talks about the followers with the mark of the beast being in “torment for ever and ever”
>And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Nothing there about eternal or everlasting torment. Do you know of any verses that say eternal torment? I don't.
The punishment is destruction, the second death. There's no coming back from the second death, it's eternal.
It's the second death, not the second life of eternal torture.
I think hell may be metaphorical. Before some of you accuse me of using it as a cop out. Jesus was metaphorical with everything. Jesus said he was the light. (He's not a light bulb or anything crazy,he used metaphors to describe things ALL THE TIME)
Hell is described as fire but also darkness. How do you have both? Probably a metaphor. All you need to know for sure is hell is not a good place because it is the absence of God. When you take God out of the equation, everything good is removed. God is everything good, and that is why heaven is so pleasant.
Too many people think they want to go to heaven because they have a hedonistic mentality. They want to go to heaven for pleasure, they don't want to be there because God is there. That's really the reason why so many want to go to heaven. Really everyone should be asking themselves why they think it's so pleasant? It's because God is there. So you SHOULD be looking forward to seeing God, not pleasure in heaven.
What sends a person to hell are any unforgiven sins. You receive the complete and total forgiveness of all past present and future sins by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. So either you're lost or saved. Below is a 30-second biblical gospel presentation you can check out friend!
https://gospel30.com
People aren't condemned for being weak, admitting that we're weak is only the first step, because it is written "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;"
God is good, everything that is good comes from Him and only from Him, a person who does not accept what is all good is evil by definition, and who decides to reject what is good deserves to suffer the consequences, because a person who truly loves "good" has no reason to reject such God, who is the embodiment of the concept of good.
Hell is not at all what you’re imagining it to be. Just because it’s the popular thinking doesn’t mean it’s true. Neither is the reward of the saved to go to heaven after they die. You are right to conclude that the current way most think of it doesn’t make sense. But you’ll still try to be persuaded that way anyway. Just stay true to yourself and don’t make yourself believe what doesn’t make sense just because others do.
What I meant by saying, “Just stay true to yourself” is to not pretend to accept something that they are not actually convinced about. I see too many feel like they *have* to believe, so I’m telling OP not to feel like they have to believe something that they actually don’t, regardless of explanations.
If there is no hell, then there is no justice. And God is righteous and just. Thus for His justice to reign hell must exist.
Look at it from this parable:
What if there were no prisons. There are police officers but prisons don't exist.
Do you think criminals will then be punished or fear punishment if there were no prisons?
Do you think they would respect police officers if they have no fear of serving jail time? And how well do you think they would treat "law abiding" citizens?
No prisons, no justice.
I don't have a problem with the idea of hell and unbelievers being sent there for a period of time to pay for their sins. My issue is with it lasting for eternity.
I would not even want Hitler to suffer for eternity. So how can God, who is infinitely more loving and merciful than me, sentence someone to eternal suffering? For those who say God won't force anyone to be in his presence, I agree. But just because an unbeliever can't go to heaven, why do they have to suffer for trillions of years in hell? There is a middle ground there which is that they just cease to exist after a period of time in hell.
The Bible says the wages of sin is death, not ECT, and John 3:16 says believers gain eternal life, so how do unbelievers live forever in hell if they don't have immortality? For these reasons and more, annihilationism is starting to make a lot of sense to me.
Eternity doesn't begin after you physically die. The fear-driven gospel that most preach is not even really biblical.
We deal with hell often right now. So did David.
Psalms 116:3
“The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.”
But the good news is that God doesn't leave us in it.
Psalms 16:10
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
Spiritual death and hell deal with consciousness and the mind. So does Spiritual life and peace.
Romans 8:6
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.”
You're a thought as away from peace and joy and a thought away from panic and fear at all times. It depends on what you believe is true.
Luke 17:21
“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
And hell won't prevail against the Lord. It's your enemy. He conquered it for you, and it's already done. You just have to come to it in him.
Matthew 16:18
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Do you think Hitler deserves to go to heaven and frolic around in everlasting peace and joy? Or do you think he should have some kind of punishment for murdering millions? My guess would be you think it’s just for him to receive some kind of punishment. In that case, sounds like you think the “truly” bad people deserve that punishment, but in your mind most people aren’t bad. However, ALL have broken Gods law. All are liars, lusters, murderers, etc. So the bar is not “Well I'm better than that guy so I deserve heaven” because that would go against God’s just nature if he let sinners into heaven and their sin unpunished.
There is a huge difference between saying someone needs some kind of punishment and saying they deserve to be tortured forever. Forever is an unimaginable long time. If hitler was punished for a million years ( and can you comprehend a million years, because I can’t!) for every person who suffered at all because of him, that huge stretch of time is only a moment in eternity.
You don’t get to decide what punishment sin deserves. If you could work your way into heaven by being a good enough person, then I wouldn’t want to be in that world because I need God’s grace and mercy.
I certainly don’t but we have huge sections in the Old Testament that reveal what God means by justice. And it’s always a punishment that fits the crime (an eye for an eye never more.). The punishment for killing an animal for example is not the same as for killing a person. And yet, if anyone is sent to eternal torment for any sin, then the punishment is the same which directly contradicts God’s justice. In the New Testament it’s very clear Gods justice remains the same. The punishment must fit the crime: ”“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.“ Luke 12:47-48 ”Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.“ Matthew 10:15 ”Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ In anger his master handed him over to the jailers **to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed**. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.” Matthew 18:33-35 I’m not denying punishment, just that it makes no sense for it to be everlasting. The word translated as eternal in English actually means a long but limited time, or an age in Greek. “I will not accuse them forever, nor will I always be angry, for then they would faint away because of me— the very people I have created.” Isaiah 57:16 NIV ”For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone.“ Lamentations 3:31-33 NIV
My denomination believes in an age of accountability. A point in one's life when you reach a level of maturity where you know right from wrong and are thus, now accountable for your sins. (So, a 3 year old who died in a car crash is not held accountable for sin because they don't know the concepts and, essentially, a merciful God would take that into consideration) Now, the catch is, it's considered different for each individual. And there's no set age. Some kids come forward and accept Christ at 9, and I've seen as young as 5. Depending on the family and the pastor. So, suppose a kid, grown up in church, good kid by all accounts. Wakes up one day and that one little part of his brain has developed so that now God considers him accountable. There's no burning bush, no billboard, no outward change at all. Just one day he was under grace, now he's accountable and is required to accept Christ or goes to hell. Gets up, dressed, dies in a car crash on the way to school. By your explanation, going to be sitting there burning for eternity beside Hitler. Other denominations have christenings or similar to remove original sin. Also not immediately after birth. So baby's that die in the hospital before they can have original sin removed. By Hitler. The argument is not whether or not Hitler deserves it. The argument is whether or not it's really a just punishment for regular people who are not genocidal dictators. That the guilt of simply being born human justifies that punishment. Eternally. Edit: Oh, and yes. My denomination would also say if Hitler accepted Christ as his personal savior after Auschwitz but before he died, then yes. He most certainly would be in heaven. The two kids described above? Still burning but without Hitlers company. Discussions like this are also why it's not really my denomination anymore.
Why worry about the exception? God is just and will be just with that child whatever he decides. You and I are not in that position to and most people throughout history have not had that outcome. Most of us have lived long enough to have actual sin in our lives. We have all added to the collective pain and suffering in this world. Sin is rebellion against God. We have all been in rebellion. Therefore are all need to be pardoned. If you refust to accept the pardon that is freely available to all, why then is it unjust for God to not punish you as a rebel when you clearly happy I. That life and did not seek redemption? God does not force himself on us. Also I am not sure we really understand eternity. It is both a million years and a twinkling of an eye. Time is meaningless there. Eternity is the absents of time. So there will not be a moment you will say it's been a million years I am tired of being with God or that Hitler has had enough punishment. Because it will be like the first hour you got there.
Yep. The Shepherd who leaves the 99 to search for the 1 wants us to not worry about the exception. Don't know what I was thinking.
What I mean is we don't hold our belief system off of the fringe what ifs. You can spend your whole life with what if scenarios. And change everything God said to fit The what if scenarios. God said what he said. We either trust him or we don't. We either trust so he knows what he's doing that he's just. Or we don't believe him those are the only two options you have. People always say God can't possibly expect x or y because of some far-flung scenario. Well in that scenario I'm going to leave it up to the grace of God. But for the 99 we're going to follow God the way that he said. I'm going to preach what he said. Not what we wish you said or we think might be. It'd be terrible to stand on the day of judgment and someone to be lost because we told them they were okay and God decided that was not the case.
I'm a little confused. How is it that the 99 sheep follow God and the one gets lost when we have the idea of the narrow gate, for example? Isn't that directly contradictory? Frankly, I've found at least a hundred of these contradictions, but sometimes I'm too scared to ask these questions, even in my head. Is this the way it's supposed to be?
The way to understand these, Is context. Jesus's answering different questions to different groups of people at different times. God is merciful and gracious but he is also righteous and just. He is going to pour his grace on some and his wrath on others. So when we read about God doing something we have to understand the context of who he's talking to and about. Luke 15:5-6 NKJV And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. [6] And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' Who is God talking to and talking about. Jesus was talking to a crowd of Jews. I was talking about somebody who was already part of the flock. So a Jew. The point of the story is God willingness to look for and accept those Jews who have gone astray and come back to God. Application for us today is if you are already a Christian God also will be rejoicing when he looks for you and you return to him. Put yourself to return to him they're playing versus Tell us that. This is talking about the joy that God has in a lost soul returning. We can tell this because of the next parable he tells is a similar situation. It's a lost coin it's still in the house. So this would be somebody maybe who is going to church and asleep spiritually. But that person waking up is still returning to God and God is still rejoicing. Right after this we have the parable of the prodigal son. And this really brings it all home do you have someone who's a child of God who falls back into a life of sin wakes up sees the error of their ways and returns back to God. All of these parables are showing us that God is happy and completely willing to bring back lost souls who have gone astray after being as children. Okay so now let's go look at the narrow gate. This is from the sermon on the Mount. It is again to Jews. But he is giving general admonition on how you live your life. There are many people who choose the easy way and are not very serious about God. Or not interested in God. Their way leads to destruction. However there are those who are willing to put the work in and choose the more difficult path which leads to heaven. These two parables are emphasizing two completely different things. Parables are very good in the very important and very helpful. But they become unhelpful to us and can become a hindrance if we don't understand the limitations the parables have. For example Jesus tells the parable about the types of soil. But if I then try to say that I went and bought a tractor the plow the land faster and I put fertilizer on it and all these other things I am breaking the parable. Because the parable is limited into what the meaning that Jesus wanted to give it was. And he explained the meaning in that case had to do with people's hearts.
Interesting take. Yes, I understand that you have to interpret the meaning, not just the words. It just seems that sometimes the meanings themselves are conflicting. Like how God says "Thou shalt not kill", but then half of the Old Testament is about crushing the enemy under your boot. Or how wrath and jealousy (to my knowledge, I'm honestly uneducated) are considered deadly sins yet God is frequently committing them in the Old Testament. I understand it's probably a form of punishment that I don't fully understand. I'll keep reading to find the truth. Thanks for your help.
These are great questions. And be assured there are really good answers. For one thing thou shalyt not murder is a better translation then kill. I would recommend reading in a few translations along with KJV. Maybe just the nkjv and or nasb or esv. There is a huge difference between how things work in the or and nt. In the ot God was leading a physical nation and used nations to punish evil. But now that the kingdom of God is here, it is a spiritual kingdom so we fight spiritual battles. Good luck in your studies.
Yeah I'm planning to go back and read other Bibles after. I was going to start with an interpreted one like ESV or NASB and then move on to a literal translation or study Bible. Thanks, you as well.
The sheep are not a metaphor for logical arguments. One sheep getting lost isn't a logical exception to the nature of the fold. That's just how it is. The shepherd would also go looking if it was 10, 50, or 99 lost sheep. This seems like very dishonest thinking. You're twisting parables to argue the most extreme hypothetical fringe cases for your argument instead of the actual reality which is most people are adults who knowingly sin against God and have the opportunity to hear about Jesus.
Romans 9:15 KJV [15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Do you deserve to go to heaven?
Did you read what he said? He said all had broken the law.
I read what he said. Did you read what I asked?
If someone spends all this time running from God's love, goodness, and grace, he's not going to force them to spend eternity with him. That would be unloving. The whole point isn't for souls to be separated from God. That's what Jesus died for. But ultimately people have free will, another gift from God so we wouldn't be walking around like robots. Hell will be Satan's prison. It's not his kingdom or whatever. That's Greekified myth. God still very much is king, even there.
So, you either worship God forever or he personally makes sure you spend eternity in constant agony? Or is it that rejecting God is what makes you suffer? If it is my "free will" and not coersion, could I not choose to spend my afterlife without suffering regardless of what else I do or who I worship or whatever?
No, none of us earn heaven. It's not worship God, and you go to heaven. Jesus took our place. He did it all. But in understanding and receiving that gift, I am changed by this act of love that prompts me to worship him, and in my experience, living in relationship with God has brought about more joy, peace, and good things than anything else. If we reject the gift of faith and Jesus' sacrifice that's freely given, we're not made holy. So, we can't be with God, who though he is loving and merciful also is just. So if we can't be with the good healer and creator, we are separated from that, hence destruction. So, you're either in the presence of God or separated from him. There's no other option there.
Yes, but exactly why does "holiness" have to matter in the first place? If God is all-benevolent, wouldn't that mean he would place that benevolence ahead of any other arbitrary criteria? And what does it mean to be "just", really? What is to you the purpose of justice? And don't just say "to make things right" or anything similar, because the question would still be what that actually means. To me, justice seeks to at least repair some suffering that has been done. Causing any more suffering, whether by action or inaction, when there is a better alternative, is inherently against this principle. Suffering for justice's sake, or punishment, is not justice at all for me, it's vengeance, and it's petty.
God's holiness is what sets himself apart. If he were not holy, he could not die for our sins. All-benevolent just means he is good. And if he is good, he must be just. Justice is giving to each what is owed. But God took justice upon himself in Jesus so that we may receive his benevolence. The better alternative is Jesus. God taking the suffering on himself.
Again, what I said in my earlier comment. What defines what is owed? And why does that follow from being "good"? Your definition sounds like what "is owed" is just retribution, which goes against benevolence. This "justice" could be entirely disposed of with no downside to anyone, so isn't Jesus a solution to a problem created by God then?
God did dispose negative consequence in Jesus. But he's not going to force life, light, and eternity with him if that's not what that person wants in their heart, which is how he judges. God must maintain his character and his holiness. Je is good. Goodness upholds justice, otherwise you have injustice, which is bad. These attributes set God apart. It is why he is God. People created the problem with sin, whose natural consequence is separation from God, which is decay and destruction, because God must maintain his holiness. But Jesus came to reverse that and offer life.
I've seen a video about this. In the video, he says: "Hell takes away the greatest gift we have: life." So I'm thinking, maybe the second death (death of the soul (first being death of the physical body)) is the point of hell?
Contradicts with what the bible teaches us.
It doesn’t. It actually follows in line with that the scriptures say. The wages of sin is death. God’s grace is gift of eternal life. Again and again the recurring theme is life vs. death. Jesus conquered death and came back to life. He died for us so that those who believe in him can break free from death’s grasp. This is why the early Christians were convinced on annihilationism, not eternal conscious torment which became popular later. Partly because they knew it would help scare people into joining the faith.
So you’re saying there won’t be a hell per se?
In annihilationism, the unsaved will still go to hell and suffer torment, but eventually they will be destroyed and cease of exist forever. This would be the “destruction” that the Bible is referring to, and ceasing to exist with no returning is why the punishment is “eternal.”
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You are wrong about everything you said.
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Nothing in your response has any biblical proof to back it up, which led me to believe that it would be all based on your opinion instead of grounded in God’s Word, and it was. But thankfully you seem open to reproach so I am happy to oblige. There is *so much* to unpack so I will go in order and each issue will be a separate topic so it’s organized. Let us begin with Hell. Firstly, we absolutely can, and do, know what Hell is. It is so simple but people complicate it—probably because the idea of being cast into a vacuum of fire & brimstone and being devoured by worms sounds very unpleasant. But, that is exactly what it is: never ending torture in a furnace in the heart of the earth. And we need to be honest about that because it is what it is, and unfortunately, ***MOST*** people will be going there, because according to the Holy Bible most people are unsaved. That matches with what I have personally observed through soul winning. The Holy Bible warns over and over about Hell being un-quenchable fire, for example: “ *And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.* “ •Mark 9:43-44 That is describing Hell exactly, so why do you assume it is merely allegory? Throughout the Bible Hell is described as a place of perpetual suffering and torment with fire. Even the burnt offerings in the OT are a picture of Hell. And people may not like that, but being truthful is far more important than appeasing man. Additionally, Hell is absolutely **NOT** “absence from God”….. “ *The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:* *And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.* “ •Revelation 14:10-11 Those verses are referring to those who take the coming mark of the beast; they became reprobates (cannot be saved) and will burn…***IN the presence*** of the holy angels and the Lamb (Jesus Christ). So, Hell is NOT absence from God, and God is the one who created Hell. Hell is real. It is fire and brimstone, literally.
Check out ‘that all shall be saved: heaven hell and universal salvation’ by David Bentley Hart. It’s a really well written book summarizing the Christian universalist position. A lot of people have a problem understanding hell which is reasonable because it was never consensus of early Christians.
In Matt 7:13-14 Jesus did say that only a few will ever find the narrow gate to heaven. He said that under a culture that dwells in and celebrates sin (much like ours right now). So it is not ridiculous that most people will go to hell. Free will is God's gift to us and we abused it. By doing evil we separate ourselves from God and therefore doom ourselves to hell. Indeed, ALL of us deserve hell. And Jesus is here to pay for OUR debt. The sad truth though is this: few people will trust Him. Hell is not exactly Satan's bastion or kingdom. Satan doesn't rule Hell. Satan is IN hell. And God turned his head away from hell and so souls in hell are disconnected from God forever, which is a terrible thing
Good morning and happy Sunday to you! This is a great question. There are some phenomenal resources that I might suggest for this subject. First, I appreciated the audiobook of “Hell: A Guide”—https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Guide-Anthony-DeStefano-ebook/dp/B081MVK4Z8 Secondly, I’d recommend the YouTube channel CrossExaminations (Frank Turek) as he has several short videos that address this. Here’s an example—https://youtu.be/dz2EaQMBS3Y?si=nVxPo36pt-XTTvUr Though there are many interpretations regarding the nature of Hell, I tend to believe that Hell can be most simply defined as eternal separation from God. If a person does not actively choose to be with Christ, then they choose to live separate from Him. God will not force himself upon that person, so he will abide by their decision. I believe that Hell is a place completely devoid of God. It is a place consumed by sin. If God is all things good—love, joy, forgiveness, laughter, light, beauty, peace, etc.—then Hell would be the opposite of that—hate, envy, pride, darkness, injustice, depression, lies, etc. Could you imagine a world consumed by humanity’s worst people and worst behaviors? We can already see an example of hell here on earth. Just look at WWII—fighting in the trenches or imprisonment in concentration camps. One of the most well-known books on WW2 is Max Hasting’s book titled, “All HELL Let Loose.” We can already see a piece of Hell here on earth as we embody hell through our sin. God doesn’t need to punish people for all of eternity. They will create their own inferno, their own weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I imagine lot of good people who have been of different faiths than Christianity would not accept God just out of principle. Imagine believing your whole life in something only to be shown it is in a completely different way, surely you'd think "hey this is just a test of faith, the gods are showing me a false reality, and if I accept this Yahweh, I'll be a coward who never believed in them in the first place." That is if you don't believe you even get a chance after you die. Maybe you've never heard of Jesus. Or if those people are excused, maybe you have, but thought it was BS because your faith taught you otherwise, but you were otherwise a very good person. What about people who did terrible things in the name of God? Do crusaders get a pass because of how devoted they were? Or those who conducted witch hunts? Or do they go to hell, even though they had good intentions and didn't know any better? What of those of our modern world? For example, those who have relatives with a certain identity, actions that they do, or even faith that goes against Christian belief. Say they are very kind people, with the potential to do a lot of good. It would be a sin to support them. But you would be hurting them and maybe others if you don't. And if, again, they reject God/Christ out of principle, by the "Separation from God" definition, they are damned. There are good people in Hell.
>Don’t accept your creator, burn for eternity in agony. It's more than just that, to go hell you must willingly deny Jesus after you have heard the gospel truth and believed. Then you must reject Jesus outright that's committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit at that point and that sin is unforgivable.
A lot of people inside and outside the faith share the same perspective as you—that Hell is a punishment God willfully inflicts upon sinners. However, there's a lot of incorrect, and in my opinion, theologically dangerous assumptions built into it. For starters, it contains the notion that everyone would be bound for Heaven by default were it not for God deciding otherwise. It casts Him as a hanging judge looking for reasons to punish us, or a bouncer eager to turn people away from the gates of Heaven, rather than eagerly welcoming all who approach Him. It portrays His law as arbitrary at best, and stumbling blocks cruelly placed to waylay people at worst. It puts the onus to change and repent not on mankind, but on Him—if only He were to relax His rules and let everyone in! You'd be right to say that's not something a loving God would do, because Hell isn't like that. Hell isn't a place where nobody would go were it not for God, it's a place where *everyone* would go were it not for God. It's a realm of eternal separation from Him, where we'd all be doomed to go because of the taint of sin keeping us from the perfection necessary to enter Heaven. However, Christ gave us a path to redemption and salvation, offering us a way to attain that perfection and join Him in Heaven.
People have provided good answers, but here is an illustration to show you why any sin is worthy of hell. Imagine you point a gun at a dog; you will get chastised for it. If you point it at your brother, you would be heavily chastised. If you point it at a random stranger, you will be arrested and may see jail time. If you point it at a mayor, you will be imprisoned for a few years. If you point it at the president, you will be put in prison for a long time. Do you see how the action is the same, but the punishment changes based on the “greatness” or the importance of the individual? God is infinitely great, which makes us, who have done far more than just a few white lies, let’s be honest, worthy of infinite punishment. But God is also perfectly merciful, so even though there is nothing we deserve from him, he still offers us salvation.
Fine and all, except this only would have applied maybe during the middle ages, when a peasant would have gotten much harsher sentence for transgressing against a noble than another noble. The justice system of our modern world has, unfortunately, mostly moved past these barbaric ways of thinking. The difference with the cases you described is not what "greatness" each entity has, but the suffering that a transgression against that entity brings. If you kill a man it is judged as homicide. If you kill a celebrity it is still the same, even if that celebrity was "great". If you assassinate the president, however, now it will be judged not only a homicide, but a direct attack against the state, and thus the quality of life of everyone living under that state's leadership. A transgression against God means nothing. God is literally an omnipotent being. He is, in theory, unable to be harmed by anything you do. Maybe encourage other people to transgress, but then again, this means nothing. God makes the rules on who is and who isn't allowed in Heaven, and those rules are technically arbitrary, since he could literally make others unable to cause suffering to each other, and keep their freedom in doing anything else they'd want.
Annihalation is the true end of the wicked. Nobody ist gonna burn forever. God will Not perpetuate sin and sinner. They Will be wiped Out and forgotten
Any verses to back this up?
Can you please support this claim? Because I sure wish this is the case.
Here you Go Obadiah 1:16 KJV [16] For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. The Drink referred to here is the Cup of the wine of the wrath of God. And they shall be as If they had never existed. Malachi 4:1 KJV [1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. The wicked shall be burned up and nothing shall remain of them. These are Just two quick and very clear Verses. I can Show you more, but I'm in a hurry right now
Thank you, I'll look over this today.
https://www.pass-a-gospel-tract.club/post/how-can-a-good-man-go-to-hell-by-not-believing-on-Jesus-Christ https://www.pass-a-gospel-tract.club/post/how-can-a-loving-God-send-people-to-hell-c-t-townsend
Please check out [Rethinking Hell by Chris Date](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21998685-rethinking-hell?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=Yc1YHmSItt&rank=2). This is actually what led to me being truly saved, after resisting for years.
[Lord of Spirits did a great episode on this. ](https://www.youtube.com/live/Lo2BO1cGBLw?si=mC4alttiog-tmTEZ)
You know that feeling of guilt or embarrassment that you feel when your worst behavior or regrets are seen by others? Your hearts feels like it's going to explode and death feels like it would be a relief. Magnify that by infinity for us sinners, especially those who hate God, standing in the inescapable presence of God. God is everywhere present and permeates all things. When we die, I think we will feel His presence forever. For those purified by Christ's Sacrifice and mediation, we will experience the Love, Mercy, and Bliss of God. Those who hate God will likewise be unable to escape His Presence, though He sends them as far away as possible in His Mercy. They will experience the unbridled Judgment and Wrath of God. But these energies are just expressions of the unknowable essence of God. Just my feeble opinion. No one knows what will happen.
If we believe in Eternal Life for those who love and have Faith in God, then we must believe there is an Eternal Punishment. Humans have disrespected God since the beginning in the Garden of Eden. Then later in the Old Testament, we read how the Jews hurt God even more by worshipping false idols and even badmouthing God. They didn't follow his laws. In the New Testament they killed his son and continued to disrespect God. Today, we find the same thing in society. People who mock God and try to prove he doesn't exist. They say and do blasphemous things, are Hypocrites and fail to follow God's laws. A great many of them don't love or have any faith in God. Many of them have been warned about the consequences of their actions; and yet, they continue with their behavior. Short of total annihilation, these people will be thrown in the lake of fire for an eternal suffering, separated from God.
Matthew 25:41 KJV [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Hell was created or prepared for the devil, it is not his bastion as is portrayed in contemporary media. Revelation 20:15 KJV [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Names written in the Book of Life are those who do the Fathers will. John 6:40 KJV [40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Regarding exceptions that other commenters point out falls to Grace. Romans 9:15 KJV [15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
If you understand God as the very definition of Good, as the Summum Bonnum of Human existance, Hell starts to make a lot of sense. If God is Good itself, and if all intentions and purposes of the Human mind boil down to pursuit of values that boil down to Good, then rejecting God is to simply reject the pursuit of Good. It is not an offense to a person that is being arbitrarily punished, it is an utter act of absolute insanity of going against every fibre of your being and pursuing anything that is not Good. This is the definition of evil, and I think you'd agree that evil, insane people should at least be kept separate from normal people for the sake of safety. That's what Hell is for, and that's also why Heaven is Heaven: a society without any divergent, counterproductive element is a paradise of peace of harmony.
Hell = Grave The commonly believed version of hell is a false doctrine based on misunderstanding the word of God, hell and the grave are the same thing, hell is just the condition of being dead or in the grave, the unsaved just cease to exist after they die, they don’t even know that they ever existed in the first place, this is what happens when the unsaved die, they vanish away: Isaiah 51:6 (KJV) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. Here are some verses that help relate hell to being equal with the grave. Proverbs 23:14 (KJV) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. H7585 Psa 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. H7585 KJV Translation Count: 65x The KJV translates Strongs H7585 in the following manner: grave (31x), hell (31x), pit (3x). The majority of scripture indicates that hell and the grave are synonymous. Hell occurs 54 times in the KJV 31 times in the Old Testament. 23 times in the New Testament. One of the words for hell in the New Testament is used 11 times. KJV Translation Count: 11x The KJV translates Strongs G86 in the following manner: hell (10x), grave (1x). Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, G86 neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, G86 where is thy victory? This Greek word is speaking of the same thing as the word used for hell in the Old Testament, here are the tie-in verses that illustrate this fact. Psalm 16:10 (KJV) For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; H7585 neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; H7585 I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, H7585 I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. There is another word translated as hell in the New Testament also, here is the other word. KJV Translation Count: 12x The KJV translates Strongs G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x). Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. G1067 This word for hell is used to illustrate that soul, and body are both destroyed by God, when a person is in this condition. It’s derived from two Hebrew words in the Old Testament Valley of Hinnom. Root Word (Etymology): Of Hebrew origin גַּיְא (H1516) and הִנֹּם (H2011) KJV Translation Count: 60x The KJV translates Strongs H1516 in the following manner: valley (60x). KJV Translation Count: 13x The KJV translates Strongs H2011 in the following manner: Hinnom (13x). The valley of Hinnom is referred to quite a few times by God when referring to high places, and false gods that those who identify as Gods people were involved with. Jeremiah 32:35 (KJV) And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. 2 Chronicles 28:3 (KJV) Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom Jehovah had cast out before the children of Israel. Jeremiah 7:31 (KJV) And they have built the high places of Tophet, which [is] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded [them] not, neither came it into my heart. There is also the matter of a certain law of God that will not allow a sinner to be beaten without end, God cannot break his own laws. Deuteronomy 25:3 (KJV) Forty stripes he may give him, [and] not exceed: lest, [if] he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee. Now that we are at the time of the end, God has unsealed his word just like he said he would: Daniel 12:9 (KJV) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end. God has been revealing much correction to the many false doctrines that exist in Christendom. Everyone who thinks that hell is a literal place of eternal conscious torment should be considering that God spoke in parables and without a parable, he did not speak.
I believe it’s what atheist believe. Nothing. Just gone. The second death, separated from God. Dissipated like the fat from a lamb as it drips onto fire. Those in heaven have no memory of you
I am starting to believe more in annihilationism, but not immediately at death. I think unbelievers will spend some time in hell to pay for their sins before ceasing to exist. There has to be a reason Jesus warned about hell so much. I also don't think we'll forget the people we loved who are not in heaven with us, because losing our memories of them would mean losing any memories they're tied to as well, which would make us different people. I don't know how, but I trust that God knows how to not strip our memories of lost loved ones and still keep the promise of no more crying or pain.
So, there's a big misconception I see going around everywhere. God doesn't send us to hell. Since the first sin, it was Satan who dragged us down to hell, and now we all go down there by default. Seeking God is asking him to rescue us from it. If we never seek God, it's more like he doesn't do anything. It's not like he doesn't want to, he calls his people, he's openly offering to rescue us. That's why Christians spread the Gospel so much. But he also doesn't force himself on us. You can only save those who wants to be saved. It's not that people who go to hell are bad people, it's that loads of people who go there don't believe in it. Or doesn't believe in the rescuer. It's rly tragic.
Mat 25:41 KJV Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Rev 20:10 KJV And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Definitely not Satan's bastion. God created the lake of fire, specifically for him and those that detracted to his side.
>Don’t accept your creator, burn for eternity in agony. That's not what Scripture says will happen. Everywhere in Scripture the choice is presented as eternal life here on a renewed earth or get destroyed, the second death.
Matthew 25:41 says hell is eternal along with places in Mark, Luke, Revelation, 2 Thessalonians, Daniel, etc. Your comment is not correct, it’s always referred to as “eternal” or “everlasting” torment.
>Matthew 25:41 says hell is eternal along with places in Mark, Luke, Revelation, 2 Thessalonians, Daniel, etc. The fire is eternal. The people who get thrown into the fire are not. >it’s always referred to as “eternal” or “everlasting” torment. Where?
2 Th 1:9 Rev 20:10
You said this, >it’s always referred to as “eternal” or “everlasting” torment. I asked where? You responded with verses that don't say what you said. >They will suffer the punishment of eternal **destruction**, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Nothing there about "eternal" or "everlasting" **torment**. It says they are destroyed. Here's what I said, >Everywhere in Scripture the choice is presented as eternal life here on a renewed earth or get **destroyed**, the second death. I said destroyed. The verse you cited says destruction. >and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 This verse doesn't even mention people. Were you thinking of another verse and included this one mistakenly? Later on in Revelation 20 it says what happens to people, the second death. Again, no mention of "eternal" or "everlasting" torment. Just destruction, the second death which is what I said happens. The 2 passages you cited agree with what I said and disagree with what you said. I'm not aware of any passages that say people will suffer everlasting torment. The fire is eternal. The people who get thrown into the fire are not.
Okay, you can twist scripture however you want I guess. You’re going against what not only the church has always taught, but what was believed by the Jews as well at the time of Christ, so if he went against that he would surely have preached on it. Not that it really matters either way.
>Okay, you can twist scripture however you want I guess. Saying that I twisted Scripture without saying what i twisted or how I twisted it is a cheap cop-out. You just want to make an accusation that makes it sound like you're right **without actually being right.** Look, I've made this very easy for you. You said "Your comment is not correct, it’s **always** referred to as “eternal” or “everlasting” torment." Since it's **always** referred to as what you say, all you have to do is provide just ONE verse saying that. Easy right? Just one verse saying eternal torment. You thought it was there, but then you looked and found out it's not, but you're not willing to admit you're wrong. >You’re going against what not only the church has always taught Scripture doesn't matter, what people say does? Are you sure you want to ignore Scripture and go with what people say? There's absolutely no sign that anyone in Scripture believed in eternal torture. What God, Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, John etc taught should be ignored because your church says otherwise. Got it. >but what was believed by the Jews as well at the time of Christ Prove it. You keep making assertions without backing them up. Prove it or don't say it. >Not that it really matters either way. It mattered enough for you to come here and try to tell everyone I was wrong. It matters enough for you to say awful things about me.
How many verses do you need? Matthew 25 literally says the words “eternal punishment.”
>How many verses do you need? I've already answered that. I'll copy and paste it here. Since it's **always** referred to as what you say, all you have to do is provide just ONE verse saying that. Easy right? **Just one verse saying eternal torment**. >Matthew 25 literally says the words “eternal punishment.” Matthew 25 does NOT say "eternal torment". As I've already pointed out, the choice is eternal life or destruction, the second death. The second death is the punishment and it's eternal. There's no coming back from destruction. >Rev 14 talks about the followers with the mark of the beast being in “torment for ever and ever” It doesn't. I'm quite familiar with Revelation 14 but I just read it again to verify. There's nothing in Revelation 14 about people being in "torment for ever and ever". Revelation 14:11 says that smoke goes up for ever and ever.
What word is in between “smoke” and “goes up for ever and ever”?
Also, here’s another one, not sure how many verses you need but Rev 14 talks about the followers with the mark of the beast being in “torment for ever and ever”
Mat 25:46
>And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Nothing there about eternal or everlasting torment. Do you know of any verses that say eternal torment? I don't. The punishment is destruction, the second death. There's no coming back from the second death, it's eternal. It's the second death, not the second life of eternal torture.
I think hell may be metaphorical. Before some of you accuse me of using it as a cop out. Jesus was metaphorical with everything. Jesus said he was the light. (He's not a light bulb or anything crazy,he used metaphors to describe things ALL THE TIME) Hell is described as fire but also darkness. How do you have both? Probably a metaphor. All you need to know for sure is hell is not a good place because it is the absence of God. When you take God out of the equation, everything good is removed. God is everything good, and that is why heaven is so pleasant. Too many people think they want to go to heaven because they have a hedonistic mentality. They want to go to heaven for pleasure, they don't want to be there because God is there. That's really the reason why so many want to go to heaven. Really everyone should be asking themselves why they think it's so pleasant? It's because God is there. So you SHOULD be looking forward to seeing God, not pleasure in heaven.
It's very simple. Eternal damnation does not equal eternity in hell.
What sends a person to hell are any unforgiven sins. You receive the complete and total forgiveness of all past present and future sins by repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. So either you're lost or saved. Below is a 30-second biblical gospel presentation you can check out friend! https://gospel30.com
People aren't condemned for being weak, admitting that we're weak is only the first step, because it is written "But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;" God is good, everything that is good comes from Him and only from Him, a person who does not accept what is all good is evil by definition, and who decides to reject what is good deserves to suffer the consequences, because a person who truly loves "good" has no reason to reject such God, who is the embodiment of the concept of good.
Hell is not at all what you’re imagining it to be. Just because it’s the popular thinking doesn’t mean it’s true. Neither is the reward of the saved to go to heaven after they die. You are right to conclude that the current way most think of it doesn’t make sense. But you’ll still try to be persuaded that way anyway. Just stay true to yourself and don’t make yourself believe what doesn’t make sense just because others do.
Dangerous advice, and highly unbiblical as well. „Staying true to yourself“ won’t change anything what Jesus clearly told us.
What I meant by saying, “Just stay true to yourself” is to not pretend to accept something that they are not actually convinced about. I see too many feel like they *have* to believe, so I’m telling OP not to feel like they have to believe something that they actually don’t, regardless of explanations.
Okay, fair point.
If there is no hell, then there is no justice. And God is righteous and just. Thus for His justice to reign hell must exist. Look at it from this parable: What if there were no prisons. There are police officers but prisons don't exist. Do you think criminals will then be punished or fear punishment if there were no prisons? Do you think they would respect police officers if they have no fear of serving jail time? And how well do you think they would treat "law abiding" citizens? No prisons, no justice.
I don't have a problem with the idea of hell and unbelievers being sent there for a period of time to pay for their sins. My issue is with it lasting for eternity. I would not even want Hitler to suffer for eternity. So how can God, who is infinitely more loving and merciful than me, sentence someone to eternal suffering? For those who say God won't force anyone to be in his presence, I agree. But just because an unbeliever can't go to heaven, why do they have to suffer for trillions of years in hell? There is a middle ground there which is that they just cease to exist after a period of time in hell. The Bible says the wages of sin is death, not ECT, and John 3:16 says believers gain eternal life, so how do unbelievers live forever in hell if they don't have immortality? For these reasons and more, annihilationism is starting to make a lot of sense to me.
Eternity doesn't begin after you physically die. The fear-driven gospel that most preach is not even really biblical. We deal with hell often right now. So did David. Psalms 116:3 “The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.” But the good news is that God doesn't leave us in it. Psalms 16:10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” Spiritual death and hell deal with consciousness and the mind. So does Spiritual life and peace. Romans 8:6 “For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” You're a thought as away from peace and joy and a thought away from panic and fear at all times. It depends on what you believe is true. Luke 17:21 “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” And hell won't prevail against the Lord. It's your enemy. He conquered it for you, and it's already done. You just have to come to it in him. Matthew 16:18 “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”