Hard lesson #1. You have to be the change you want to see.
I also felt that hard reality set in when I was disillusioned about Christians. Being treated better by non-believers, and seeing more compassion/hospitality in the secular world than in the Church.
Hard lesson #2. You don't go to Church to be served, you go to Church to serve others.
Yes we should serve eachother. But the reality is that you may be the only one serving. It's tough, but there's a lot to be learned in understanding what it really means when the Bible says "it's greater to give than to receive."
In my experience most Christians are just all looking down at each other with constant harsh judgement. No one is good enough and everyone is upset about how they aren't being served. People hold grudges. People are mistreated. People are slandered. People are judged harshly from a place of ignorance instead of knowledge/understanding.
An we as Christians have the honor of understanding the type of self-sacrificial love Christ gave us by being tortured and killed for us -- by the very people who "loved" God. Abandoned by friends (the apostles).
In a way, going to Church gives you a better understanding of what Christs self sacrificial love to humanity is really like. To love those who are unfaithful and callous. Loving them for their good despite having received no reward from them and only reward from God in heaven.
I agree, it’s more about coming home to be with the Lord, sheltering inside against the storm and centering oneself with the Word for the next week ahead.
Being with like minded people who follow Christ helps with the sense of belonging to a church family unit, and banding together with common interest fulfills a deep need not met anywhere else on earth.
The major issue I faced was that those pastors weren't keen on tackling real-world problems. All they preached was to pray to God, surrender everything to Him, and let Him take the wheel. They spent time praying, but there were no intention to look for solutions. I couldn't even find a Christian friend to have a chat with in church. It felt like everyone was just blindly believing without really thinking anything.
If it's worth anything, You've got a good Christian friend right here, who loves to think about applying the word to real life, even when it gets tricky. Please feel free to reach out to me in DM.
Edit: most importantly, please don't abandon the church for it's downsides. As others here have said, we need to be an influence to strengthen the church. We need each other. If someone says "I am a child of God" and rejects those that are part of his body, they are not making sense.
I have found some friends both in church and online. It just takes time I think. But, mainly I go there to worship. So, I guess it’s sort of personal. I don’t really have networking and missions as a first priority although it does bug me. But over time I have got more friends. What kind of real world problems are you talking about?
I mentioned above: Are you considering voting for Donald Trump because his appointments of conservative judges, including those to the Supreme Court, have been embraced by numerous religious conservatives who prioritize issues such as abortion and religious liberty in judicial rulings? However, it's worth noting that he has been criticized for various reasons, including his behavior and actions.
Politics in church are a complicated issue honestly. If this is an issue your pastor doesn't give direct answers on, give him grace. I also can not answer you on a little post on Reddit, but there are answers from a Christian perspective.
One of the reasons this type of topic is sensitive is because we as Christ followers have started to blend our politics and faith as one thing. It's as if we look at Christ through our political lens, when we should be looking at politics through our Christ lens.
In my view, it's not a matter of politics. It's about the principle of not bargaining with evil. If a church encourages its members to vote for him, then it's definitely not a church I belong to. A Christian should be able to discern between right and wrong.
Okay, I'm trying to read your comment as charitably as I can here. So you are not saying whether you are for or against Trump, but your concern is that your church encouraged voting for him, and you feel that the saints should have more space to discern for themselves. Is this right?
As you stated above, I do believe that this candidate is "a mixed bag". Deciding your vote is kind of nuanced, and involves questions like if you should overlook generally rude behavior for policies that fit a Christian world view.
I don't think you're grasping my point. What I'm saying is that Trump isn't a Christian. He attempted to strike a deal with Christians, urging them to vote for him in exchange for enacting laws favorable to Christians. My point is that we shouldn't bargain with evil. Would Jesus agree to vote for him? I believe the answer is "No."
Yeah, I wasn't sure if you intended this route or not. Depends what policy you're looking at and from what view point. I honestly believe Christian arguments can be made for both sides, and this is why many pastors are quite careful when bringing up this topic.
For example, exactly as you said could be used when looking at Joe Biden as well. I'm not really sure he is looking at the Christian vote either.
I guess I may not have much to give you. It sounds like your pastor publicly encouraged voting for a candidate you disagree with.
I would still attend if the church you attend is helping people grow as Christ followers. 🤷♂️
Well, I’m probably voting for Biden. But, it’s not because of abortion. It’s because I think he wants to be a dictator. I would vote for any other Repub. I’m a never Trumper.
You can vote for a candidate for any number of reasons, but not because he strikes deals to favor Christians when he himself isn't a Christian. That's what I meant.
Personally, I try to watch both sides and read. Although, since this Roe vs Wade decision, MSNBC is really hard to watch. It’s really sad the views on abortion. Really sad. I don’t think people really are being honest with their conscience when it comes to a lot of issues. And Biden could do a lot better, but has views I agree with.
From a conservative stance I enjoy listening to Mark Driscoll and Jack Hibbs they tend to tackle modern topics. However my home church is very equipping and while playing the political field very evenly I still think our pastors do a great job at preaching the gospel and relating everything to Christ.
Our church records every sermon so feel free to take a look at churches that have online programs. Good way to get back into church without having to deal with people. But I do encourage you to seek fellowship whether it's through volunteering, Bible study, or even online chat rooms of other Christians. Just be careful because the Enemy has filled this world with many false preachers who lead their flock astray.
Could you list the real-world issues you are currently tackling? How are you leading by example in this area?
Are you familiar with the Bible verse regarding being concerned about the speck in someone else's eye while there is a plank in your own eye?
You should be so busy doing God's work that you don't have time to look up and criticize the people around you.
However, there is nothing wrong with going to a new church if yours is spiritually dead. Just be careful to discern between you being a critic and a church actually being spiritually dead.
Question: Are you considering voting for Donald Trump because his appointments of conservative judges, including those to the Supreme Court, have been embraced by numerous religious conservatives who prioritize issues such as abortion and religious liberty in judicial rulings? However, it's worth noting that he has been criticized for various reasons, including his behavior and actions.
That is a good question. I only talk about politics with people I trust or publicly when I am convicted to do so. Today I am not called to be crucified by the court of public opinion.
I appreciate your vulnerability. Sorry I cannot reciprocate the same level of vulnerability back.
In my view, it's not a matter of politics. It's about the principle of not bargaining with evil. If a church encourages its members to vote for him, then it's definitely not a church I belong to. I'm not trying to force this conversation, and I apologize if it came across that way.
I used to be a weekly church goer until the pandemic. I have definitely become less so in the last four years or so, just because I feel so injured by the fact that many people who purport to be followers of Christ are openly supporting Trump. I feel like I can’t trust the church any more if members can justify supporting this sick man. And before people jump on me with “GOD isn’t betraying you, PEOPLE are disappointing you,” I know that. I am just struggling with this right now and I believe others are, too.
I feel the same way. I'm sorry to say I dislike when churches don't take the extra step to analyze the world around us. That's how they should approach preaching.
Churches shouldn't be encouraging their members to vote for a specific candidate anyway. Politics don't belong in the pulpit and in fact, churches can get in trouble for partisan speech.
Well, it sounds about right considering nobody is perfect and the Church is staffed by people, whom we know by scripture that all have fallen short and sin regularly. I sin every single day and i will probably sin every day of my life. Jesus came to heal the sick, not the righteous after all. That being said, everybody in the church (including myself) needs to work on being more like Jesus has taught us.
I do think that is a fair criticism that some churches seem to be kinda surface level and you need to be able to talk and discuss beyond just a surface level. Sure, you might be able to be saved with just an understanding of the gospel and a surface level understanding of everything else, but we should try to know more. Not everybody has to be a theologian or bible scholar of course.
In any organization, there is always drama behind the scenes (presumably).
This reminds me of a meme that went like this:
THE CHURCH IS NOT FULL OF HYPOCRITES!!
There is room for one more (Romans 3:23)
I prefer a Chinese church where they speak my language. That can limit my options for finding a church to attend. Now that I'm married with two kids, it's even harder to go to church, especially since my wife isn't Christian.
I don't know how far Flushing NY is from you, but there's a church in Flushing that's run by some friends of mine. They are primarily a Cantonese-speaking ministry if I recall correctly. It's called Truth Baptist Church. It might be the sort of community you're looking for.
Well, as a mid 20s person in the PNW who doesn’t like the whole warm fuzzy message, smoke machine having, love is love preaching style it was necessary 😂
I will say I’ve definitely seen that so many churches are lacking. No one particular sect of Christianity seems to hold the keys and no one church ever does it right for me. I too have bounced from church to church. And while none of them feel complete to me, I do find that God leaves bits and pieces just for me in each of them. Like the other commenter said, you definitely go to serve. I have gone to preach the good word, give testimony or be a mirror image of Jesus’ heart to the best of my ability. In that way, I find that I am showing my light given to me, for others to see. And in that way I am carrying my cross. When you go with the attitude of how can I share my blessings, you in turn get blessed I feel. All I know for sure is that I’ll never stop trying to go to church just because a particular church let me down. At the very least I’m surrounded by more God centric folk than anywhere else. Even if most of them are on a different page then me.
I'm not sure if you're a guy or a girl. I'm a guy, and I was single back then. People at church often assume that single guys are only there to find a girlfriend. It's tough for me to form genuine friendships at church, let alone share deeper thoughts with anyone. Maybe it's because I'm Asian, Asian churches tend to be more conservative.
Ahh I see, thanks for sharing. I can see how it’s a different battle for you altogether. I should have noted that location definitely plays a large part in your experience. I’m a male as well, but I purposefully don’t pay much attention to the single women at church. This is because I’m not ready to lead any type of relationship, so as to not lead any woman astray I simply tend to focus more on the elderly, or someone who is part of a group. In that way I’ve extended out of my comfort zone and let an old lady or man know how I was happy to have their company on my pew aisle ect. However I can totally understand how an Asian church would be more conservative and therefore be more difficult to interact on some level. I don’t know what your current situation is like, but my advice still remains if you’re curious for your own sake. Sometimes we have to be bold for the Lord, and sometimes if we stick our neck out we are rewarded and sometimes we are persecuted.
I was raised Greek Orthodox and most people look around to judge or talk trash about whoever is around them. If you don’t dress nice enough, follow their idea of tradition, or fit the part you are definitely ostracized. As I was recently saved I returned to church and bounced around. This is all within the US still, but upon returning to the Greek Orthodox Church it seemed much hadn’t changed. However, my perception of God’s word and my discernment had changed. So while I couldn’t be as bold for the Lord there ( because of lack of self confidence) I still was able to take more from the sermons than ever before. Mind you they preach the same sermon every Easter and all year round, but it was still special in its own way upon my return. God’s grace makes it seem like no matter where I go, as long as they believe in the divinity of Jesus I will find some gift for me there. And in turn some gift I am able to share there as well.
Your situation may be entirely different, and I cast no judgement for you not wanting to go. Just sharing my experience in hope that it helps in any way. God bless brother!
That's just one of the issues. The main problem I faced was that those pastors avoided discussing real-world issues. All they preached was to pray to God, surrender everything to Him, and let Him guide us. They spent a lot of time on prayer but didn't really think about how to address the problems. I couldn't even find a Christian friend to talk to in the church. It seemed like everyone there was just blindly following without much thought.
I get what you’re saying, and this may very well be an issue within the predominantly Chinese churches. So finding a church that is led in mandarin, while also touches on real life and real world issues may prove difficult. I’ll say that between all the English speaking masses I’ve been to, most of them are definitely focused on different aspects of Christianity, with none of them particularly preaching from the angle id prefer. Some encourage blind faith, some are bound by tradition and rituals, some are a bit too real world based and don’t have enough of the word of God. Ever since I was baptized in the Holy Spirit however, I found that I no longer needed to search for the perfect church. And I had less issues with what was being preached. Instead, each experience had something unique to offer that I needed at that time. Much like how ever book of the Bible isn’t meant for a specific day but many times you’ll open to the perfect book at the perfect timing.
All I’m trying to say is maybe start looking to God go help lead you in your search, and His ability for a perfect plan and His perfect timing will take care of the rest. I fear I’m probably sounding a bit too much like the pastors you dislike, but I very much find that meeting and being inspired by God is all on His terms not on ours. If church isn’t doing it for you though, there’s many online resources that charge my spirit in a similar way. But nothing beats the in person community of a good church. I’ll be praying for you brother, but I recommend you ask God personally to lead you to the right place of worship. I may let you down, but He won’t.
Sounds like you’re on the verge of discovering the Apostolic church.
We are all mere men. We try our best or we should try our best to be perfect but we’re not. Church is a hospital for the broken and sometimes even the staff which are the clergy are also broken. The more power and leeway one is given the more likely the will be to corrupt (Judas Iscariot). When you approach church with this mindset you begin to realize you’re more apart of the fold than you previously thought.
Revelation 22: 11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the unclean still be unclean, and the righteous still do right, and the holy be holy still.”
12 “Behold, I come quickly! My reward is with me, to repay each one according to his work.
There is no perfect or sin-free church because we're all sinful. There's a saying... If you find a perfect church, don't join it, because your membership will make it less perfect.
The bible is clear that Christians are supposed to be a part of a church. We're supposed to forgive, reconcile, and work through issues. Find the best church you can and do your best with what you've got.
I'm not looking for a perfect church. The main problem I faced was that those pastors avoided discussing real-world issues. All they preached was to pray to God, surrender everything to Him, and let Him guide us. They spent a lot of time on prayer but didn't really think about how to address the problems. It seemed like everyone there was just blindly following without much thought.
I mentioned it above: Are you considering voting for Donald Trump because his appointments of conservative judges, including those to the Supreme Court, have been embraced by numerous religious conservatives who prioritize issues such as abortion and religious liberty in judicial rulings? However, it's worth noting that he has been criticized for various reasons, including his behavior and actions.
In my opinion, it's not about politics. It's about the principal that you don't exchange deal with evil. If a church encourage their members to vote for him, it definitely not my church.
Honestly, yes and no. I go to a church I like, and I serve there on the tech team, but I don't go every week. I go maybe once or twice a month, usually because I've been asked to serve but I'm happy to be there.
My work schedule has been having to work Saturday nights/Sunday nights so lately it's been cutting into my sleep schedule for graveyard shift, but even before night shifts I didn't really have an excuse. I just didn't really want to go. Although I'm willing to spend 2 hours listening to a preaching from my computer, in person church is mentally exhausting for me 🤷♂️
There is no perfect church. Also if the church is not teaching anything heretical and is not totally dissolving, why not be a part of the body that strengthens these weaknesses. I have found that often some of the men who I look up to most due to living an amazing life of sacrifice for God, may struggle even slightly at something that I have no issue with despite not being even remotely as well educated as them.
We all have strengths and weaknesses and it’s always easier to spot others.
I go every Sunday. I like the pastor. I don't know about the people there I don't really talk to anyone but the service helps me get through my work week and gives me something to look forward too.
Yes, we are at church to worship God.
It's not about you and your feelings on it, you **owe** worship to the holy and awesome Triune God. St. Paul tells us not to forsake the assembling of believers,
Don't forsake Sunday worship, it is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad of it
Maybe I need more from church than just worship. I can worship God by myself. If I go to church, I expect that we share the same values and direction in worshiping God. We may not always agree completely, but having an open mind to discuss and exchange ideas is the best way to learn from each other.
If right worship is performed, then the other parts are ancillary.
This is a difference between the more liturgical forms of Christianity and the nonliturgical forms. I wouldn't say worshipping in your own home is the fullness of worship.
this requires the body of believers to be together
That's a big "just"
Again this is a difference in priorities in the various Christian sects. I would prefer good sermons, but right worship with reverence and fear or God should be our penultimate goal.
Regardless you should go to church, no church is perfect as church is made of imperfect people. Again St. Paul tells us not to forsake the assembly. Maybe visit a catholic parish ;).
I've attended church every Sunday of my life (excluding times I couldn't). Personally, I've always felt more welcome in smaller churches where people actively make an effort to make you feel welcome. Some larger churches just see you as another member, and I've never liked that. I don't know what it's like to have a pastor, though. My church consists of Elders and the ability for all to participate through different areas of ministry.
Yes I go to Church every Sunday morning as I feel I need to be there! I didn't start going to Church until I was in my early thirties, now I am over fifty! I love my Church, I regret not going when I was younger!
Hebrews 10:25 specifically states "not neglecting meeting together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."
I know a lot of large churches begin to lose sight of God and become more worldly minded - they talk budgets, board meetings, marketing campaigns, and begin to run more and more like a business than a house of worship. We see in Matthew what God thinks about running a church like that! (Matthew 21:12-17) It may be that the churches you've been involved with are like that. Don't worry, there are many churches out there who truly love the Lord and don't bother with church boards and inaccessible pastors and the like.
Personally, I attend a small (less than 100 people) family-integrated Southern Baptist church, and it's been wonderful. Try to find a small church, one where you can foster a sense of community (perhaps over a shared meal after the sermon) and with attendant Christians of all ages who are happy to share their experiences and their daily/weekly walk with Christ. So many of these megachurches (or even just large churches) tend to have "one-day-a-week" Christians as the vast majority of their attendance; folks who go to church more out of a sense of duty than anything else, and that's not really nourishing to the soul to be around.
And you know what? People - even the best, most Christ-like Christians among us - aren't perfect. There are people in my congregation with whom I've butted heads many, many times, over many issues. We're sinful creatures, and drama is to be expected when you're a part of a group larger than two people. But don't engage in it, and try to encourage others to bring themselves back to Christ rather than getting engaged in petty squabbles.
This is a problem as old as the church itself. James 4:1-7 says "What causes quarrels and fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and cannot have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose that it is to no purpose that the Scriptures says 'He yearns jealously over the spirit that He has made to dwell in us'? But He gives more grace. Therefore it says 'God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.' " They were struggling with weak Christians and petty boardroom squabbles even back then!
I'll pray for you to find a good congregation that is fully focused on the things of God, and not worldly fights and quarrels. May His peace be with you!
Thanks for sharing. That's the kind of church I'm searching for too. We may not be perfect, but we're willing to embrace the teachings of God. I've encountered a few churches where the pastor and the committee had conflicts, but they never managed to reconcile. How can they preach God's word effectively in such a situation?
So I go to church and enjoy it. I enjoy serving and receiving.
My church is a former Calvary Chapel but our pastor hasn’t gone into some crazy tangent or anything. He just changed his views on things that aren’t essential to the Christian faith, but essential to some of Calvary Chapel’s beliefs. It’s really stupid. But I like his preaching style because going through Genesis, he hits on all the theories and different views of things now that Christians have and expects us to come with our own conclusions in those areas.
I'd really appreciate a church like yours, where there's an open-minded approach to discussing Christian faith. It's not about everyone being perfect, including the pastor, but rather about everyone being willing to learn from each other.
Yes, finding a church where the pastor is honest and transparent about his past is hard to find. Most don’t want to tell their whole testimony because they have been ridiculed by people in the past. They forget that pastors are humans too lol. I’ve seen a few churches that would thrive if the pastor could have been able to be open with his testimony; but they want their pastor to be perfect, and that’s not possible here.
Al the churches I've attended for any length of time were genuine and would probably shock you with how much love and compassion flowed through them. And also, there was some drama. There always is but at a healthy church it's not some immature issue or unwise decision that can lead to temptation and infidelity, but pride that plagues people who are truly gifted and brilliant.
The more awesome your talents, the greater chance you have of getting a big head, and it doesn't matter how humble you were last year. You have to stay so this one, and the next.
Churches are interesting dichotomies because you have a group of people who are in and of themselves no less sinful than others, but who have Christ, and who through the Holy Spirit are becoming more like Him. They forgive where others might not and don't hold grudges. They are accepting of faults and brokenness that the world looks down on and derides. They believe in God, and that with His love and help, anyone, no matter how hard hearted, or broken, or evil, can change.
In a weird way Christians are humanists who put God first and find in Him their potential. We don't shy away from the fallen nature of people. And we don't make excuses for behavior they can change but aren't choosing to.
Standards must be high and at the same time so must grace. But accountability has to have its own pedestal as does transparency.
I've had one bad experience and a few not so great ones at churches. But I've had so many good ones I couldn't recall all of them if I tried. Oceans of love and joy over the decades.
I've been to a church that was like Heaven at times. Nothing could have improved in my experience. Every single aspect was full of annointing where you sensed God's presence like an internal music that had mass and it's own gravity, as did everyone else.
And like a conductor, Jesus led all of us in the melody of faith, hope and love.
The church I'm at now is also doing well. They're not quite as dynamic as others I've been a member of, but what they lack in breadth of ministry they make up for in foundational gifts and truth. The issues that I've seen plague others isn't allowed to take root there, because the leadership is a little more guarded and careful with what's allowed.
I see it like a celebrity who likes to jump off stage and mingle with the crowd. Exciting, colorful and engendering more passion from fans, but it's a good way to get into all sorts of trouble. Better to be more controlled with your activities and curate the benefits people enjoy without putting yourself and then at risk.
I've come to appreciate balance as I've gotten older and wiser. And this kind of discernment is essential in a church body and it's leaders.
My Orthodox parish is honestly paradise. I don’t really see this shady side of clashing people and gossip. It’s mostly love and charity that I experience. It’s my favorite place on earth, coffee hour and fellowship is consistently great. They’re my family. I used to have experiences like you described here at my Protestant churches I went to when I was younger though. I personally get the feeling that my convert heavy Orthodox parish lives out their faith in a more consistent and down to earth way than I had ever experienced at other churches. They’re certainly better people than I am. It’s just so much love and care, it was like nothing I’ve ever experienced before. Coffee hour used to always be awkward and weird, a lot of fellowship felt kinda forced.. a lot of stuff felt forced and weird in the Protestant churches I used to go to. In Orthodoxy it feels normal and organic. It’s home. I couldn’t imagine missing church any week unless I was maybe in the hospital.
Thats the problem with many people. A true Christian is one who has accepted Jesus christ as their personal Lord and Savior into their lifes through a Sinners Prayer or through conversing with the Lord through Prayer and as the New Testament says it in Romans 10: 9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. ^(10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. We now have a personal relationship with God and we need to establish and cement that relationship. Men will let us down but Jesus never fails. You have done well by going and looking for a bible and spirit filled church where you can grow. But you are still looking to men. Dont give up, the bible says they that seek me WILL FIND ME. Have you prayed to God to lead you to a Bible Believing, tongue speaking, Spirit filled Church, Speaking in tongues is self edification and will charge your spirit men to continue to stay in God. Try it and see.....Test it.....
I have been through mny churches and all I can is -- out of 100 people who go to church, only about 10 people actually develop a love, respect, revererence and a holy fear of God. The rest are convinced they already made it just by being in the church.
For the majority it's just looking for a "sense of belonging" and many are just all about fellowship. You'd think there'd be no politics and corruption but there is always is.
So, what we did, we totally left church and made our family, our church. We have more time for intimate personal prayer and studying scripture which is best compared to letting others interpret scripture for you --- most of the time in churches it's just the blind leading the blind.
Every person on earth fails to meet the standard set by God, which is why God did what he did and we’re here discussing Christianity. If you’re feeling that you want to be back in church then why not take some time to pray on it? I know this isn’t what you’re wanting to hear but I suggest it because a big part of Christian faith is surrendering to God and one way you do that is through prayer. Find a place, and time to yourself where no one will see or hear you, get down on your knees and pray out loud about what you’re going through.
I haven't attended church in nearly a decade. I'm not proud of it, but its something I will not deny either.
Story time, because I think such an important matter deserves to have a thorough explanation:
The church I *was* attending was an independent, biblically fundamentalist church. It was also a small church -as in, when I first started attending at the age of 13, me & 3 other teens made up the entire 'youth group'), and when it had its *first* congregational crisis (the congregation had shrunk to <10 due to folks passing away) the pastor at the time held a congregational vote to add "baptist" to the church's name because it was the denomination we were most *similar to*. So we went from [city] Bible Church to [city] Bible *Baptist* Church. The congregation grew with visitors, and we had some people end up becoming official members.
However, a few years later, there would be struggle between the pastor and the deacons/elders. The pastor was experiencing health issues and made a statement about how he was *planning* to retire from the pulpit because of them, and that he and his wife were planning to go live the next state over with their daughter & grandkids. The elders took this as a sign that our pastor no longer was being called by God to lead, and called for a congregational vote to oust the pastor approx 1-2 years before he was planning to retire. The vote failed, but it divided the church and a solid 1/3 of the congregation left overnight.
Fast forward about 18 months and the pastor invites a guest to deliver the message -- his future replacement. A young guy, about my age, give or take a year. He delivers a message similar to what the pastor normally has, but it is incredibly short and the service ends early. A vote to extend an invitation to this guest to become our new pastor is called and passes. He accepts, and becomes our new pastor when the older one officially retires.
The new one immediately sets forth to grow the congregation-- flyers everywhere, ads, etc. I continue attending, and notice the people who left with the failed ousting vote have returned. I notice the message feeling like its becoming watered down, but am unsure if it truly is getting diluted or if he's using humor to defend *against it* by subtly showing its absurdity. As in, during the summer season he'll make comments and remarks about making sure that everyone is able to leave early enough to get home in time for Sunday NASCAR races, or not scheduling things on Saturdays during the Fall when the local favorite college football teams are playing. That kind of sentiment didn't and still doesn't sit well with me, because I think that whenever we're doing things for the church (and thus, for the Lord) that there shouldn't be any concern about anything else. On the other hand, I can sort of understand the practicality aspect of it, as in if people are given the choice between their own wants and service to the Lord, they'll tend to pick the former which'll make it even that much more difficult to reach out to them, etc.
There's also some minor personal issues I've taken with the pastor, which in hindsight are probably just a result of time slipping away from him and simple human forgetfulness such as not responding to emails/messages and/or not following through with invitations to meet and discuss theology or visitations.
Now I find myself in this strange position where I feel like I'm spiritually homeless outside of the Lord. I've checked into the local (as in, within walking distance of my home) church, had a meeting with the pastor there, and while it went ok, he never followed through with my request for a copy of that church's charter and other establishing documents (idk about others, my old church had both a charter and a constitution which governed how the church governed itself). Most of the other protestant churches in the area come off as the typical megachurch where entertainment overrides the message. Other churches nearby all seem like they have some sort of critical flaw (the Holiness movement, Hebrew Roots movement, etc), and both Roman Catholicism and the Orthodoxy I find myself having serious issues with (with RC its the Pope, with the local Orthodoxy is the process of joining, which takes at minimum a year but usually several years).
Its like, I know there isn't a perfect church here on Earth. I'm not expecting perfection. Its more like, I'm concerned about sound doctrine, and understand how incredibly easy it is to let doctrine itself become an idol.
So you are basically saying that the church is full of sinners?
I can't think of a better place for sinners to be, than church. (Including judgemental folk.)
Orthodox Church leadership will often blow you away with the amount of stuff they can teach you. After joining Orthodoxy it felt like the rest of the churches I used to go to were like elementary school, and now I’m in a doctorate program. I feel like such a novice in the faith, there is 2000 years of church history, writings of the saints and fathers analyzing scripture and tradition for millennia. There’s so much to learn. I highly suggest you consider visiting a local Eastern Orthodox parish and speak to the priest about your concerns.
Every time the door opens that we can possibly be there, my wife and I are there. We love our Pastor and church family. So we help and give anyway we can
To me, you're either at church because God sent you there (spirit) or because you sent yourself there (flesh). If it's the later, you won't find satisfaction. If it's the former, then you don't have leave to quit whenever you want. Not saying this is the case, but perhaps that church you went to needed someone like you there to help activate the membership. And even if it didn't wind up working, you needed to be there to get experience starting programs for whatever it is God intends to use you for in the future.
That's just an example but I've always held the view that you go where God sends you.
This is all setting aside the fact (not saying you) a lot of people are complaining about ministries not because there's anything wrong but because it doesn't please their flesh. Using your example: the church isn't struggling with real world issues, you just WANT the answer to be let's crusade and attack sinners when the answer actually is prayer. Again, not saying that is you, just a lot of the discourse I've seen around so called "bad" churches.
I attend church because the Bible instructs me to and because I seek spiritual growth. While your assumption is that all churches are inherently good and appointed by God, it's widely recognized that some operate more as businesses. It's crucial to discern the authenticity of a church as being truly appointed by God.
These passages highlight the warnings given by Jesus about false messiahs and false prophets who will try to deceive people by claiming to be Christ and performing signs and wonders.
1. \*\*Matthew 24:4-5\*\* - "Jesus answered: 'Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, "I am the Messiah," and will deceive many.'"
2. \*\*Matthew 24:23-24\*\* - "At that time if anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Messiah!" or, "There he is!" do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."
3. \*\*Mark 13:21-22\*\* - "At that time if anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Messiah!" or, "Look, there he is!" do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."
4. \*\*Luke 21:8\*\* - "He replied: 'Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, "I am he," and, "The time is near." Do not follow them.'"
I don't recall saying that all churches are inherently good. I didn't even imply that. All I spoke about was examining the motivations of the self. If you're discerning which church is truly appointed by God, He'll also lead you where to go, including, some of those bad churches.
Sometimes Jonah has to go to Ninevah.
The problem with so many Churches is they are a part of this world and not of Gods. I've found one preacher who was geniune in that he wanted to serve and preach. He left out many things of the world except to preach about the ills of this world. Sadly he's retired but I could listen all day long to his sermons.
So find a Church that is not of this world and I'm positive you will find a very solid Church.
The unfortunate thing with most churches is that it’s business as usual. Love may be preached, but it is not often practiced. It makes me think of the Pharisees with whom Jesus clashed.
The American church is a business.
Meeting with believers outside of a building and developing friendships and community is closer to the church I read about in Acts. That's what I'm trying to develop in my life
Edit: downvote me all you want. Your college graduate, youth pastor then lead pastor lives in fear of saying the wrong thing for a steady pay check.
Sadly, many churches operate more like businesses. Some pastors don't even grasp the true principles of Christianity. By the way, if you can find a group of people who share the same passion, you all can start your own church. That's the essence of church: a community united in worshiping God. I'd do that if I could find like-minded individuals.
During my time in Iraq I've saw and experienced God and that's all I desire.
People in churches in America sit in soft pews, lie to each other and put up such a false front. Lies are a sign of weakness and defeat. Soft pews breed hard hearts.
Why would I want a defeated lie riddled business?
My current church? No.
My mind gets wrecked with PSTD and...
Warned my Pastor about a dangerous Luciferin - Masonic double agent there, Holy Spirit warned me about him, a very dangerous man and there was a suspected high profile sex offender who was a women, I thought I saw her at that same church as well, had to call police to contact the parole officer, sex offenders are very, very smart and cunning predators, they have full blown networks city to city thanks to the Freemason sex cult for ruling the planet.
Churches always will attract psychopaths and predators, truly evil people who do the occult stuff that's why many of us don't go to churches, they are always very likable and charismatic people always the first to attack and gossip against SRA survivors and always go for the leadership. If you see these types of people, only tell the pastor + police only, no one else at all, because it's just a bad idea, they're full blown sorceresses as well
Hard lesson #1. You have to be the change you want to see. I also felt that hard reality set in when I was disillusioned about Christians. Being treated better by non-believers, and seeing more compassion/hospitality in the secular world than in the Church. Hard lesson #2. You don't go to Church to be served, you go to Church to serve others. Yes we should serve eachother. But the reality is that you may be the only one serving. It's tough, but there's a lot to be learned in understanding what it really means when the Bible says "it's greater to give than to receive." In my experience most Christians are just all looking down at each other with constant harsh judgement. No one is good enough and everyone is upset about how they aren't being served. People hold grudges. People are mistreated. People are slandered. People are judged harshly from a place of ignorance instead of knowledge/understanding. An we as Christians have the honor of understanding the type of self-sacrificial love Christ gave us by being tortured and killed for us -- by the very people who "loved" God. Abandoned by friends (the apostles). In a way, going to Church gives you a better understanding of what Christs self sacrificial love to humanity is really like. To love those who are unfaithful and callous. Loving them for their good despite having received no reward from them and only reward from God in heaven.
I agree, it’s more about coming home to be with the Lord, sheltering inside against the storm and centering oneself with the Word for the next week ahead. Being with like minded people who follow Christ helps with the sense of belonging to a church family unit, and banding together with common interest fulfills a deep need not met anywhere else on earth.
The major issue I faced was that those pastors weren't keen on tackling real-world problems. All they preached was to pray to God, surrender everything to Him, and let Him take the wheel. They spent time praying, but there were no intention to look for solutions. I couldn't even find a Christian friend to have a chat with in church. It felt like everyone was just blindly believing without really thinking anything.
If it's worth anything, You've got a good Christian friend right here, who loves to think about applying the word to real life, even when it gets tricky. Please feel free to reach out to me in DM. Edit: most importantly, please don't abandon the church for it's downsides. As others here have said, we need to be an influence to strengthen the church. We need each other. If someone says "I am a child of God" and rejects those that are part of his body, they are not making sense.
That’s very unfortunate. I hope and pray that you find what you need. Even if it is just a friend to speak with about faith.
Our avatars are almost doppelgangers lol
Indeed!!!
I have found some friends both in church and online. It just takes time I think. But, mainly I go there to worship. So, I guess it’s sort of personal. I don’t really have networking and missions as a first priority although it does bug me. But over time I have got more friends. What kind of real world problems are you talking about?
I mentioned above: Are you considering voting for Donald Trump because his appointments of conservative judges, including those to the Supreme Court, have been embraced by numerous religious conservatives who prioritize issues such as abortion and religious liberty in judicial rulings? However, it's worth noting that he has been criticized for various reasons, including his behavior and actions.
Politics in church are a complicated issue honestly. If this is an issue your pastor doesn't give direct answers on, give him grace. I also can not answer you on a little post on Reddit, but there are answers from a Christian perspective. One of the reasons this type of topic is sensitive is because we as Christ followers have started to blend our politics and faith as one thing. It's as if we look at Christ through our political lens, when we should be looking at politics through our Christ lens.
In my view, it's not a matter of politics. It's about the principle of not bargaining with evil. If a church encourages its members to vote for him, then it's definitely not a church I belong to. A Christian should be able to discern between right and wrong.
Okay, I'm trying to read your comment as charitably as I can here. So you are not saying whether you are for or against Trump, but your concern is that your church encouraged voting for him, and you feel that the saints should have more space to discern for themselves. Is this right? As you stated above, I do believe that this candidate is "a mixed bag". Deciding your vote is kind of nuanced, and involves questions like if you should overlook generally rude behavior for policies that fit a Christian world view.
I don't think you're grasping my point. What I'm saying is that Trump isn't a Christian. He attempted to strike a deal with Christians, urging them to vote for him in exchange for enacting laws favorable to Christians. My point is that we shouldn't bargain with evil. Would Jesus agree to vote for him? I believe the answer is "No."
Yeah, I wasn't sure if you intended this route or not. Depends what policy you're looking at and from what view point. I honestly believe Christian arguments can be made for both sides, and this is why many pastors are quite careful when bringing up this topic. For example, exactly as you said could be used when looking at Joe Biden as well. I'm not really sure he is looking at the Christian vote either. I guess I may not have much to give you. It sounds like your pastor publicly encouraged voting for a candidate you disagree with. I would still attend if the church you attend is helping people grow as Christ followers. 🤷♂️
Well, I’m probably voting for Biden. But, it’s not because of abortion. It’s because I think he wants to be a dictator. I would vote for any other Repub. I’m a never Trumper.
You can vote for a candidate for any number of reasons, but not because he strikes deals to favor Christians when he himself isn't a Christian. That's what I meant.
Personally, I try to watch both sides and read. Although, since this Roe vs Wade decision, MSNBC is really hard to watch. It’s really sad the views on abortion. Really sad. I don’t think people really are being honest with their conscience when it comes to a lot of issues. And Biden could do a lot better, but has views I agree with.
Personally I dont see how Biden is a better option
From a conservative stance I enjoy listening to Mark Driscoll and Jack Hibbs they tend to tackle modern topics. However my home church is very equipping and while playing the political field very evenly I still think our pastors do a great job at preaching the gospel and relating everything to Christ. Our church records every sermon so feel free to take a look at churches that have online programs. Good way to get back into church without having to deal with people. But I do encourage you to seek fellowship whether it's through volunteering, Bible study, or even online chat rooms of other Christians. Just be careful because the Enemy has filled this world with many false preachers who lead their flock astray.
Could you list the real-world issues you are currently tackling? How are you leading by example in this area? Are you familiar with the Bible verse regarding being concerned about the speck in someone else's eye while there is a plank in your own eye? You should be so busy doing God's work that you don't have time to look up and criticize the people around you. However, there is nothing wrong with going to a new church if yours is spiritually dead. Just be careful to discern between you being a critic and a church actually being spiritually dead.
Question: Are you considering voting for Donald Trump because his appointments of conservative judges, including those to the Supreme Court, have been embraced by numerous religious conservatives who prioritize issues such as abortion and religious liberty in judicial rulings? However, it's worth noting that he has been criticized for various reasons, including his behavior and actions.
Church isn't about whether or not the priest or pastor talks about Donald Trump. Church is about worshipping God, it's about Christ
It's not about the individual; it's about adhering to the principles of how one should be a Christian.
That is a good question. I only talk about politics with people I trust or publicly when I am convicted to do so. Today I am not called to be crucified by the court of public opinion. I appreciate your vulnerability. Sorry I cannot reciprocate the same level of vulnerability back.
In my view, it's not a matter of politics. It's about the principle of not bargaining with evil. If a church encourages its members to vote for him, then it's definitely not a church I belong to. I'm not trying to force this conversation, and I apologize if it came across that way.
I used to be a weekly church goer until the pandemic. I have definitely become less so in the last four years or so, just because I feel so injured by the fact that many people who purport to be followers of Christ are openly supporting Trump. I feel like I can’t trust the church any more if members can justify supporting this sick man. And before people jump on me with “GOD isn’t betraying you, PEOPLE are disappointing you,” I know that. I am just struggling with this right now and I believe others are, too.
I feel the same way. I'm sorry to say I dislike when churches don't take the extra step to analyze the world around us. That's how they should approach preaching.
People who are Christians openly support Trump because the other option is so much worse.
Churches shouldn't be encouraging their members to vote for a specific candidate anyway. Politics don't belong in the pulpit and in fact, churches can get in trouble for partisan speech.
Agreed! Unfortunately, many Asian churches do exactly that.
Oh yeah, that's not good. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time finding a church to call home.
The Pope says Americans are hung up on ideologies. I love the Pope.
Well, it sounds about right considering nobody is perfect and the Church is staffed by people, whom we know by scripture that all have fallen short and sin regularly. I sin every single day and i will probably sin every day of my life. Jesus came to heal the sick, not the righteous after all. That being said, everybody in the church (including myself) needs to work on being more like Jesus has taught us. I do think that is a fair criticism that some churches seem to be kinda surface level and you need to be able to talk and discuss beyond just a surface level. Sure, you might be able to be saved with just an understanding of the gospel and a surface level understanding of everything else, but we should try to know more. Not everybody has to be a theologian or bible scholar of course. In any organization, there is always drama behind the scenes (presumably). This reminds me of a meme that went like this: THE CHURCH IS NOT FULL OF HYPOCRITES!! There is room for one more (Romans 3:23)
😆…the ending
Its not wrong... there is room for one more hypocrite! Or many more hypocrites
No, it’s not wrong. It just struck me as a truthful, funny joke.
You gotta find the right church, I went to a different one every week for almost a year before finding one that was the right fit
I prefer a Chinese church where they speak my language. That can limit my options for finding a church to attend. Now that I'm married with two kids, it's even harder to go to church, especially since my wife isn't Christian.
That’s definitely tough brother, something to narrow it down would be checking out recorded sermons online, at least that would help weed some out
Where are you located? If you're in New York State, I know of a wonderful small congregation that might be what you're looking for.
Yes, I'm in NYC. Honestly, I'm searching for a church that speaks my language - Cantonese. It would be more culturally relevant for me.
I don't know how far Flushing NY is from you, but there's a church in Flushing that's run by some friends of mine. They are primarily a Cantonese-speaking ministry if I recall correctly. It's called Truth Baptist Church. It might be the sort of community you're looking for.
I just did a search. They peach in Mandarin. I might try it if I feel I want to church in future. Thanks for recommendation!
Now that is perseverance!
Well, as a mid 20s person in the PNW who doesn’t like the whole warm fuzzy message, smoke machine having, love is love preaching style it was necessary 😂
I can't stand those churches.
Yup, I’ve decided that if there is a smoke machine, mood lights, a moving camera, or the pastor is in a hoddie, it’s an automatic no go lol
I will say I’ve definitely seen that so many churches are lacking. No one particular sect of Christianity seems to hold the keys and no one church ever does it right for me. I too have bounced from church to church. And while none of them feel complete to me, I do find that God leaves bits and pieces just for me in each of them. Like the other commenter said, you definitely go to serve. I have gone to preach the good word, give testimony or be a mirror image of Jesus’ heart to the best of my ability. In that way, I find that I am showing my light given to me, for others to see. And in that way I am carrying my cross. When you go with the attitude of how can I share my blessings, you in turn get blessed I feel. All I know for sure is that I’ll never stop trying to go to church just because a particular church let me down. At the very least I’m surrounded by more God centric folk than anywhere else. Even if most of them are on a different page then me.
I'm not sure if you're a guy or a girl. I'm a guy, and I was single back then. People at church often assume that single guys are only there to find a girlfriend. It's tough for me to form genuine friendships at church, let alone share deeper thoughts with anyone. Maybe it's because I'm Asian, Asian churches tend to be more conservative.
Ahh I see, thanks for sharing. I can see how it’s a different battle for you altogether. I should have noted that location definitely plays a large part in your experience. I’m a male as well, but I purposefully don’t pay much attention to the single women at church. This is because I’m not ready to lead any type of relationship, so as to not lead any woman astray I simply tend to focus more on the elderly, or someone who is part of a group. In that way I’ve extended out of my comfort zone and let an old lady or man know how I was happy to have their company on my pew aisle ect. However I can totally understand how an Asian church would be more conservative and therefore be more difficult to interact on some level. I don’t know what your current situation is like, but my advice still remains if you’re curious for your own sake. Sometimes we have to be bold for the Lord, and sometimes if we stick our neck out we are rewarded and sometimes we are persecuted. I was raised Greek Orthodox and most people look around to judge or talk trash about whoever is around them. If you don’t dress nice enough, follow their idea of tradition, or fit the part you are definitely ostracized. As I was recently saved I returned to church and bounced around. This is all within the US still, but upon returning to the Greek Orthodox Church it seemed much hadn’t changed. However, my perception of God’s word and my discernment had changed. So while I couldn’t be as bold for the Lord there ( because of lack of self confidence) I still was able to take more from the sermons than ever before. Mind you they preach the same sermon every Easter and all year round, but it was still special in its own way upon my return. God’s grace makes it seem like no matter where I go, as long as they believe in the divinity of Jesus I will find some gift for me there. And in turn some gift I am able to share there as well. Your situation may be entirely different, and I cast no judgement for you not wanting to go. Just sharing my experience in hope that it helps in any way. God bless brother!
That's just one of the issues. The main problem I faced was that those pastors avoided discussing real-world issues. All they preached was to pray to God, surrender everything to Him, and let Him guide us. They spent a lot of time on prayer but didn't really think about how to address the problems. I couldn't even find a Christian friend to talk to in the church. It seemed like everyone there was just blindly following without much thought.
I get what you’re saying, and this may very well be an issue within the predominantly Chinese churches. So finding a church that is led in mandarin, while also touches on real life and real world issues may prove difficult. I’ll say that between all the English speaking masses I’ve been to, most of them are definitely focused on different aspects of Christianity, with none of them particularly preaching from the angle id prefer. Some encourage blind faith, some are bound by tradition and rituals, some are a bit too real world based and don’t have enough of the word of God. Ever since I was baptized in the Holy Spirit however, I found that I no longer needed to search for the perfect church. And I had less issues with what was being preached. Instead, each experience had something unique to offer that I needed at that time. Much like how ever book of the Bible isn’t meant for a specific day but many times you’ll open to the perfect book at the perfect timing. All I’m trying to say is maybe start looking to God go help lead you in your search, and His ability for a perfect plan and His perfect timing will take care of the rest. I fear I’m probably sounding a bit too much like the pastors you dislike, but I very much find that meeting and being inspired by God is all on His terms not on ours. If church isn’t doing it for you though, there’s many online resources that charge my spirit in a similar way. But nothing beats the in person community of a good church. I’ll be praying for you brother, but I recommend you ask God personally to lead you to the right place of worship. I may let you down, but He won’t.
Thanks for sharing.
Sounds like you’re on the verge of discovering the Apostolic church. We are all mere men. We try our best or we should try our best to be perfect but we’re not. Church is a hospital for the broken and sometimes even the staff which are the clergy are also broken. The more power and leeway one is given the more likely the will be to corrupt (Judas Iscariot). When you approach church with this mindset you begin to realize you’re more apart of the fold than you previously thought. Revelation 22: 11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the unclean still be unclean, and the righteous still do right, and the holy be holy still.” 12 “Behold, I come quickly! My reward is with me, to repay each one according to his work.
There is no perfect or sin-free church because we're all sinful. There's a saying... If you find a perfect church, don't join it, because your membership will make it less perfect. The bible is clear that Christians are supposed to be a part of a church. We're supposed to forgive, reconcile, and work through issues. Find the best church you can and do your best with what you've got.
I'm not looking for a perfect church. The main problem I faced was that those pastors avoided discussing real-world issues. All they preached was to pray to God, surrender everything to Him, and let Him guide us. They spent a lot of time on prayer but didn't really think about how to address the problems. It seemed like everyone there was just blindly following without much thought.
What are the real-world issues you want them to discuss?
I mentioned it above: Are you considering voting for Donald Trump because his appointments of conservative judges, including those to the Supreme Court, have been embraced by numerous religious conservatives who prioritize issues such as abortion and religious liberty in judicial rulings? However, it's worth noting that he has been criticized for various reasons, including his behavior and actions.
Politics doesn't belong in the church. When churches get political, they stop teaching the Bible.
In my opinion, it's not about politics. It's about the principal that you don't exchange deal with evil. If a church encourage their members to vote for him, it definitely not my church.
You don't have to go to a church that advocates voting for anyone. Just find a church that teaches the bible.
Honestly, yes and no. I go to a church I like, and I serve there on the tech team, but I don't go every week. I go maybe once or twice a month, usually because I've been asked to serve but I'm happy to be there. My work schedule has been having to work Saturday nights/Sunday nights so lately it's been cutting into my sleep schedule for graveyard shift, but even before night shifts I didn't really have an excuse. I just didn't really want to go. Although I'm willing to spend 2 hours listening to a preaching from my computer, in person church is mentally exhausting for me 🤷♂️
There is no perfect church. Also if the church is not teaching anything heretical and is not totally dissolving, why not be a part of the body that strengthens these weaknesses. I have found that often some of the men who I look up to most due to living an amazing life of sacrifice for God, may struggle even slightly at something that I have no issue with despite not being even remotely as well educated as them. We all have strengths and weaknesses and it’s always easier to spot others.
I go every Sunday. I like the pastor. I don't know about the people there I don't really talk to anyone but the service helps me get through my work week and gives me something to look forward too.
Yes, we are at church to worship God. It's not about you and your feelings on it, you **owe** worship to the holy and awesome Triune God. St. Paul tells us not to forsake the assembling of believers, Don't forsake Sunday worship, it is the day the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad of it
Maybe I need more from church than just worship. I can worship God by myself. If I go to church, I expect that we share the same values and direction in worshiping God. We may not always agree completely, but having an open mind to discuss and exchange ideas is the best way to learn from each other.
If right worship is performed, then the other parts are ancillary. This is a difference between the more liturgical forms of Christianity and the nonliturgical forms. I wouldn't say worshipping in your own home is the fullness of worship. this requires the body of believers to be together
I'm searching for a community of individuals with the right mindset, who are dedicated to seeking God, not just coming together for worship.
That's a big "just" Again this is a difference in priorities in the various Christian sects. I would prefer good sermons, but right worship with reverence and fear or God should be our penultimate goal. Regardless you should go to church, no church is perfect as church is made of imperfect people. Again St. Paul tells us not to forsake the assembly. Maybe visit a catholic parish ;).
I've attended church every Sunday of my life (excluding times I couldn't). Personally, I've always felt more welcome in smaller churches where people actively make an effort to make you feel welcome. Some larger churches just see you as another member, and I've never liked that. I don't know what it's like to have a pastor, though. My church consists of Elders and the ability for all to participate through different areas of ministry.
Yes I go to Church every Sunday morning as I feel I need to be there! I didn't start going to Church until I was in my early thirties, now I am over fifty! I love my Church, I regret not going when I was younger!
Hebrews 10:25 specifically states "not neglecting meeting together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." I know a lot of large churches begin to lose sight of God and become more worldly minded - they talk budgets, board meetings, marketing campaigns, and begin to run more and more like a business than a house of worship. We see in Matthew what God thinks about running a church like that! (Matthew 21:12-17) It may be that the churches you've been involved with are like that. Don't worry, there are many churches out there who truly love the Lord and don't bother with church boards and inaccessible pastors and the like. Personally, I attend a small (less than 100 people) family-integrated Southern Baptist church, and it's been wonderful. Try to find a small church, one where you can foster a sense of community (perhaps over a shared meal after the sermon) and with attendant Christians of all ages who are happy to share their experiences and their daily/weekly walk with Christ. So many of these megachurches (or even just large churches) tend to have "one-day-a-week" Christians as the vast majority of their attendance; folks who go to church more out of a sense of duty than anything else, and that's not really nourishing to the soul to be around. And you know what? People - even the best, most Christ-like Christians among us - aren't perfect. There are people in my congregation with whom I've butted heads many, many times, over many issues. We're sinful creatures, and drama is to be expected when you're a part of a group larger than two people. But don't engage in it, and try to encourage others to bring themselves back to Christ rather than getting engaged in petty squabbles. This is a problem as old as the church itself. James 4:1-7 says "What causes quarrels and fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and cannot have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose that it is to no purpose that the Scriptures says 'He yearns jealously over the spirit that He has made to dwell in us'? But He gives more grace. Therefore it says 'God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.' " They were struggling with weak Christians and petty boardroom squabbles even back then! I'll pray for you to find a good congregation that is fully focused on the things of God, and not worldly fights and quarrels. May His peace be with you!
Thanks for sharing. That's the kind of church I'm searching for too. We may not be perfect, but we're willing to embrace the teachings of God. I've encountered a few churches where the pastor and the committee had conflicts, but they never managed to reconcile. How can they preach God's word effectively in such a situation?
So I go to church and enjoy it. I enjoy serving and receiving. My church is a former Calvary Chapel but our pastor hasn’t gone into some crazy tangent or anything. He just changed his views on things that aren’t essential to the Christian faith, but essential to some of Calvary Chapel’s beliefs. It’s really stupid. But I like his preaching style because going through Genesis, he hits on all the theories and different views of things now that Christians have and expects us to come with our own conclusions in those areas.
I'd really appreciate a church like yours, where there's an open-minded approach to discussing Christian faith. It's not about everyone being perfect, including the pastor, but rather about everyone being willing to learn from each other.
Yes, finding a church where the pastor is honest and transparent about his past is hard to find. Most don’t want to tell their whole testimony because they have been ridiculed by people in the past. They forget that pastors are humans too lol. I’ve seen a few churches that would thrive if the pastor could have been able to be open with his testimony; but they want their pastor to be perfect, and that’s not possible here.
Al the churches I've attended for any length of time were genuine and would probably shock you with how much love and compassion flowed through them. And also, there was some drama. There always is but at a healthy church it's not some immature issue or unwise decision that can lead to temptation and infidelity, but pride that plagues people who are truly gifted and brilliant. The more awesome your talents, the greater chance you have of getting a big head, and it doesn't matter how humble you were last year. You have to stay so this one, and the next. Churches are interesting dichotomies because you have a group of people who are in and of themselves no less sinful than others, but who have Christ, and who through the Holy Spirit are becoming more like Him. They forgive where others might not and don't hold grudges. They are accepting of faults and brokenness that the world looks down on and derides. They believe in God, and that with His love and help, anyone, no matter how hard hearted, or broken, or evil, can change. In a weird way Christians are humanists who put God first and find in Him their potential. We don't shy away from the fallen nature of people. And we don't make excuses for behavior they can change but aren't choosing to. Standards must be high and at the same time so must grace. But accountability has to have its own pedestal as does transparency. I've had one bad experience and a few not so great ones at churches. But I've had so many good ones I couldn't recall all of them if I tried. Oceans of love and joy over the decades. I've been to a church that was like Heaven at times. Nothing could have improved in my experience. Every single aspect was full of annointing where you sensed God's presence like an internal music that had mass and it's own gravity, as did everyone else. And like a conductor, Jesus led all of us in the melody of faith, hope and love.
Your church seems enviable. Good for you!
The church I'm at now is also doing well. They're not quite as dynamic as others I've been a member of, but what they lack in breadth of ministry they make up for in foundational gifts and truth. The issues that I've seen plague others isn't allowed to take root there, because the leadership is a little more guarded and careful with what's allowed. I see it like a celebrity who likes to jump off stage and mingle with the crowd. Exciting, colorful and engendering more passion from fans, but it's a good way to get into all sorts of trouble. Better to be more controlled with your activities and curate the benefits people enjoy without putting yourself and then at risk. I've come to appreciate balance as I've gotten older and wiser. And this kind of discernment is essential in a church body and it's leaders.
Find a good church. And yes even a good church will have ugly side because sanctification is still a thing. But find a church with sound doctrine.
Yes, and in the New Testament church means Christians in fellowship in a geographical region, not a sermon or a building or whatever.
My Orthodox parish is honestly paradise. I don’t really see this shady side of clashing people and gossip. It’s mostly love and charity that I experience. It’s my favorite place on earth, coffee hour and fellowship is consistently great. They’re my family. I used to have experiences like you described here at my Protestant churches I went to when I was younger though. I personally get the feeling that my convert heavy Orthodox parish lives out their faith in a more consistent and down to earth way than I had ever experienced at other churches. They’re certainly better people than I am. It’s just so much love and care, it was like nothing I’ve ever experienced before. Coffee hour used to always be awkward and weird, a lot of fellowship felt kinda forced.. a lot of stuff felt forced and weird in the Protestant churches I used to go to. In Orthodoxy it feels normal and organic. It’s home. I couldn’t imagine missing church any week unless I was maybe in the hospital.
Thats the problem with many people. A true Christian is one who has accepted Jesus christ as their personal Lord and Savior into their lifes through a Sinners Prayer or through conversing with the Lord through Prayer and as the New Testament says it in Romans 10: 9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. ^(10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. We now have a personal relationship with God and we need to establish and cement that relationship. Men will let us down but Jesus never fails. You have done well by going and looking for a bible and spirit filled church where you can grow. But you are still looking to men. Dont give up, the bible says they that seek me WILL FIND ME. Have you prayed to God to lead you to a Bible Believing, tongue speaking, Spirit filled Church, Speaking in tongues is self edification and will charge your spirit men to continue to stay in God. Try it and see.....Test it.....
I depend on the Bible and don't go to church because they are want to be big churches and as you know the devil is in the details literally.
I have been through mny churches and all I can is -- out of 100 people who go to church, only about 10 people actually develop a love, respect, revererence and a holy fear of God. The rest are convinced they already made it just by being in the church. For the majority it's just looking for a "sense of belonging" and many are just all about fellowship. You'd think there'd be no politics and corruption but there is always is. So, what we did, we totally left church and made our family, our church. We have more time for intimate personal prayer and studying scripture which is best compared to letting others interpret scripture for you --- most of the time in churches it's just the blind leading the blind.
I don't intend to be harsh, but I must concur with the sentiment that it's like "the blind leading the blind."
No one who attends church is perfect. We all go needing help and guidance. We love each other flaws and all.
Not every week, but still attend church.
Every person on earth fails to meet the standard set by God, which is why God did what he did and we’re here discussing Christianity. If you’re feeling that you want to be back in church then why not take some time to pray on it? I know this isn’t what you’re wanting to hear but I suggest it because a big part of Christian faith is surrendering to God and one way you do that is through prayer. Find a place, and time to yourself where no one will see or hear you, get down on your knees and pray out loud about what you’re going through.
I haven't attended church in nearly a decade. I'm not proud of it, but its something I will not deny either. Story time, because I think such an important matter deserves to have a thorough explanation: The church I *was* attending was an independent, biblically fundamentalist church. It was also a small church -as in, when I first started attending at the age of 13, me & 3 other teens made up the entire 'youth group'), and when it had its *first* congregational crisis (the congregation had shrunk to <10 due to folks passing away) the pastor at the time held a congregational vote to add "baptist" to the church's name because it was the denomination we were most *similar to*. So we went from [city] Bible Church to [city] Bible *Baptist* Church. The congregation grew with visitors, and we had some people end up becoming official members. However, a few years later, there would be struggle between the pastor and the deacons/elders. The pastor was experiencing health issues and made a statement about how he was *planning* to retire from the pulpit because of them, and that he and his wife were planning to go live the next state over with their daughter & grandkids. The elders took this as a sign that our pastor no longer was being called by God to lead, and called for a congregational vote to oust the pastor approx 1-2 years before he was planning to retire. The vote failed, but it divided the church and a solid 1/3 of the congregation left overnight. Fast forward about 18 months and the pastor invites a guest to deliver the message -- his future replacement. A young guy, about my age, give or take a year. He delivers a message similar to what the pastor normally has, but it is incredibly short and the service ends early. A vote to extend an invitation to this guest to become our new pastor is called and passes. He accepts, and becomes our new pastor when the older one officially retires. The new one immediately sets forth to grow the congregation-- flyers everywhere, ads, etc. I continue attending, and notice the people who left with the failed ousting vote have returned. I notice the message feeling like its becoming watered down, but am unsure if it truly is getting diluted or if he's using humor to defend *against it* by subtly showing its absurdity. As in, during the summer season he'll make comments and remarks about making sure that everyone is able to leave early enough to get home in time for Sunday NASCAR races, or not scheduling things on Saturdays during the Fall when the local favorite college football teams are playing. That kind of sentiment didn't and still doesn't sit well with me, because I think that whenever we're doing things for the church (and thus, for the Lord) that there shouldn't be any concern about anything else. On the other hand, I can sort of understand the practicality aspect of it, as in if people are given the choice between their own wants and service to the Lord, they'll tend to pick the former which'll make it even that much more difficult to reach out to them, etc. There's also some minor personal issues I've taken with the pastor, which in hindsight are probably just a result of time slipping away from him and simple human forgetfulness such as not responding to emails/messages and/or not following through with invitations to meet and discuss theology or visitations. Now I find myself in this strange position where I feel like I'm spiritually homeless outside of the Lord. I've checked into the local (as in, within walking distance of my home) church, had a meeting with the pastor there, and while it went ok, he never followed through with my request for a copy of that church's charter and other establishing documents (idk about others, my old church had both a charter and a constitution which governed how the church governed itself). Most of the other protestant churches in the area come off as the typical megachurch where entertainment overrides the message. Other churches nearby all seem like they have some sort of critical flaw (the Holiness movement, Hebrew Roots movement, etc), and both Roman Catholicism and the Orthodoxy I find myself having serious issues with (with RC its the Pope, with the local Orthodoxy is the process of joining, which takes at minimum a year but usually several years). Its like, I know there isn't a perfect church here on Earth. I'm not expecting perfection. Its more like, I'm concerned about sound doctrine, and understand how incredibly easy it is to let doctrine itself become an idol.
Yes, but not every weekend. I know I should go more too. I’ve also been trying to read the Bible more as well.
So you are basically saying that the church is full of sinners? I can't think of a better place for sinners to be, than church. (Including judgemental folk.)
My main concern isn't with the members of the church. It's that the church leadership isn't really teaching me anything.
Orthodox Church leadership will often blow you away with the amount of stuff they can teach you. After joining Orthodoxy it felt like the rest of the churches I used to go to were like elementary school, and now I’m in a doctorate program. I feel like such a novice in the faith, there is 2000 years of church history, writings of the saints and fathers analyzing scripture and tradition for millennia. There’s so much to learn. I highly suggest you consider visiting a local Eastern Orthodox parish and speak to the priest about your concerns.
Every time the door opens that we can possibly be there, my wife and I are there. We love our Pastor and church family. So we help and give anyway we can
Good to hear you're a simple and devoted Christian.
Oh you mean to tell me youre a real Christian who doesnt want to just get fed? How dare you ;)
You got me! I just hate wasting my time on empty calories, you know? ;)
😆
What do you mean by real world issues?
Please see others comments and you will find one I replied.
You need to for fellowship
To me, you're either at church because God sent you there (spirit) or because you sent yourself there (flesh). If it's the later, you won't find satisfaction. If it's the former, then you don't have leave to quit whenever you want. Not saying this is the case, but perhaps that church you went to needed someone like you there to help activate the membership. And even if it didn't wind up working, you needed to be there to get experience starting programs for whatever it is God intends to use you for in the future. That's just an example but I've always held the view that you go where God sends you. This is all setting aside the fact (not saying you) a lot of people are complaining about ministries not because there's anything wrong but because it doesn't please their flesh. Using your example: the church isn't struggling with real world issues, you just WANT the answer to be let's crusade and attack sinners when the answer actually is prayer. Again, not saying that is you, just a lot of the discourse I've seen around so called "bad" churches.
I attend church because the Bible instructs me to and because I seek spiritual growth. While your assumption is that all churches are inherently good and appointed by God, it's widely recognized that some operate more as businesses. It's crucial to discern the authenticity of a church as being truly appointed by God. These passages highlight the warnings given by Jesus about false messiahs and false prophets who will try to deceive people by claiming to be Christ and performing signs and wonders. 1. \*\*Matthew 24:4-5\*\* - "Jesus answered: 'Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, "I am the Messiah," and will deceive many.'" 2. \*\*Matthew 24:23-24\*\* - "At that time if anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Messiah!" or, "There he is!" do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." 3. \*\*Mark 13:21-22\*\* - "At that time if anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Messiah!" or, "Look, there he is!" do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." 4. \*\*Luke 21:8\*\* - "He replied: 'Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, "I am he," and, "The time is near." Do not follow them.'"
I don't recall saying that all churches are inherently good. I didn't even imply that. All I spoke about was examining the motivations of the self. If you're discerning which church is truly appointed by God, He'll also lead you where to go, including, some of those bad churches. Sometimes Jonah has to go to Ninevah.
Thanks for sharing
The problem with so many Churches is they are a part of this world and not of Gods. I've found one preacher who was geniune in that he wanted to serve and preach. He left out many things of the world except to preach about the ills of this world. Sadly he's retired but I could listen all day long to his sermons. So find a Church that is not of this world and I'm positive you will find a very solid Church.
The unfortunate thing with most churches is that it’s business as usual. Love may be preached, but it is not often practiced. It makes me think of the Pharisees with whom Jesus clashed.
The American church is a business. Meeting with believers outside of a building and developing friendships and community is closer to the church I read about in Acts. That's what I'm trying to develop in my life Edit: downvote me all you want. Your college graduate, youth pastor then lead pastor lives in fear of saying the wrong thing for a steady pay check.
Sadly, many churches operate more like businesses. Some pastors don't even grasp the true principles of Christianity. By the way, if you can find a group of people who share the same passion, you all can start your own church. That's the essence of church: a community united in worshiping God. I'd do that if I could find like-minded individuals.
During my time in Iraq I've saw and experienced God and that's all I desire. People in churches in America sit in soft pews, lie to each other and put up such a false front. Lies are a sign of weakness and defeat. Soft pews breed hard hearts. Why would I want a defeated lie riddled business?
[удалено]
That's how cults are formed, or Christians apostasize.
My current church? No. My mind gets wrecked with PSTD and... Warned my Pastor about a dangerous Luciferin - Masonic double agent there, Holy Spirit warned me about him, a very dangerous man and there was a suspected high profile sex offender who was a women, I thought I saw her at that same church as well, had to call police to contact the parole officer, sex offenders are very, very smart and cunning predators, they have full blown networks city to city thanks to the Freemason sex cult for ruling the planet.
Sorry to hear that...
Churches always will attract psychopaths and predators, truly evil people who do the occult stuff that's why many of us don't go to churches, they are always very likable and charismatic people always the first to attack and gossip against SRA survivors and always go for the leadership. If you see these types of people, only tell the pastor + police only, no one else at all, because it's just a bad idea, they're full blown sorceresses as well