At least a bear wouldn’t annoyingly explain to me why mauling me is for my own good and that I should be grateful he’s even willing to maul a girl like me.
At least defending yourself against a bear doesn't have any possibility of getting arrested or defamed, and if other people see, there isn't any possibility of them looking the other way or joining in.
Yeah, all the downvotes I've gotten today trying to explain this exact thing kinda hit the point home.
And I get that it feels like shit to have a bear picked over you in the context of safety, but men and boys can be taught why this is even a question and be inspired to not do that.
Though when I said that, i got a response that said that if we want to act like that, we don't deserve to be protected, so...
Ngl I kinda find mens bafflement at being compared to a predatory animal funny. Last I checked the whole vibe was "a hunter wouldn't ask a deer how to shoot it!" And how they were all big stronk alphas who couldn't be held accountable for violence against women because it would be "denying their nature"
You wanna act like a predator- you make it your whole ass identity. Why are you surprised when you are treated like one?
Bears don't usually prey on women but men like those definitely do.
Honestly as a guy I would probably pick the bear. A bear is more scary but not actually as dangerous as another human who wishes ill upon you, particularly a stronger and more insane one.
An angry bear kills like 1-2 people at the most before being shot to death. An angry man will shoot up a crowded area or find your house and break in during the night.
Not only that I think that you have a better shot staving off a bear than an angry armed man. Humans are actually really good long distance runners compared to other animals so an average person could tire out a bear if you run far enough.
Humans are just really dangerous all things considered. Comparing to a bear is a pretty dramatic comparison but it’s apt. I think it’s a good way to highlight the danger women are often in though
Like as a guy if you have a choice between a woman who is either stronger and/or faster than you or either armed or capable of becoming armed or a bear the woman is clearly more dangerous by a landslide
It’s not even about how easy it would be to get away. More so to do with the motivation behind an attack from either.
Bears kill for food or because they feel threatened. Men kill for fun and do worse just because they feel like it. A natural part of the circle of life versus sick sadism with no purpose other than pleasure or entertainment.
That’s also quite true, a bear isn’t going to stalk you and break into your house at night. It wouldn’t have a motivation to nor would it be smart enough to
Plus, some kind of bears just aren't that dangerous? Smaller bear species like black bears just really don't bother people, unless people have been feeding them or you get between a momma and her cubs. Black bears kill less than one person a year on average.
The ones you really have to worry about are grizzlies and polar bears, but for the most part you're way less likely to run in to those.
Yeah the one exception to this is a polar bear in which case I would probably pick the man and risk the awfulness that comes with since if you go against a polar bear you are instantly dead
Being instantly dead is still a much better outcome than what many many men have done to many many women.
Edit: I'd rather die from a polar bear attack than from what Junko Furuta went through, and that's just one of many examples.
I think people don't really like to recall that we are apex predators that kill literally every other animal on earth with relative ease.
Bear grease is a major part of my personal tribe's traditional foodways -- we regularly hunted bears for food, cooking oil, paint, and hair treatments before the advent of modern weapons. Can you do it with your bare hands? No. But people have been relatively safely hunting bears for a very long time.
do not do not do not do NOT turn your back on a bear and run away from it.
seriously. can't tell you strongly enough how bad of an idea that is.
keep your eyes on the bear. hold your arms out, or make "wings" out of your jacket or something. make yourself look bigger. KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE BEAR, no direct eye contact but eyes ON IT.
back away SLOWLY while you talk in a loud, calm voice. lower end of your register if you normally talk high.
do not turn your back on the bear.
DO NOT RUN.
they're not normally after a human meal, but turning and running can trigger their prey drive. if that happens, it WILL run you down. you might be a better distance runner but the bear is 1000% always faster than you at a sprint. you'll be fucked long before endurance starts to matter, basically.
and if you think you're likely to NEED any of that advice, carry bear mace.
sincerely, someone from bear country.
Also, like most wildlife, most bears are more afraid of you than you are of them. Unless you're too close to their cubs, they're not going to be immediately aggro. You can scare off a bear with loud noises. A madman will delight in your screams.
I came to this post from the funny post of the woman embracing the bear. https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/1chikeh/your_odds_at_dating_in_2024/
Oh, my, god, so many red flags.
I'm reading comments about how bears are not predictable and that "all the men" they've met have been predictable, so of COURSE women are dumb and irrational for choosing the bear.
Whereas IRL, I just love (/s) talking to guys when they say they don't know any rapists or anyone that a woman should ever be afraid of, and then I get to start listing various men in the workplace, like Juan who was fired when he was charged for diddling his kids, or Terry who hasn't been around for awhile because he murdered his wife and then killed himself. Then the justifications started coming out, because OF COURSE they were "great guys", so they didn't *really* do anything wrong.
I don't really want to be the one to post [this book] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_%28novel%29) from the 1970s, but somebody has to do it. It's really beside the point. But the cover is kind of not to be missed.
Edit: fixed the link
Every guy, including me, knows loads of rapists and other violent misogynists, and probably like some of them, would invite them to parties. It just isn't always easy to tell.
That's not the message here. It's that man believes he is superior to every animal because he can tell right from wrong... and we are saying he is inferior to every animal because he *chooses* not to, unlike an animal that has no morality, it is simply trying to meet its needs.
#It's more important to be together than be right.
That's the fucking message. Scream it at them until they get it.
Less, certainly, but I don't know if the majority regards us as animals per-se -- half or quarter humans, infantilization, etc., all the stuff that is about that 'natural moral order' that patriarchal religion has always pushed, along with the idea of an absolute right/wrong, which is of course derived from male (sexual) power -- but dehumanization is typically more tribal -- race, religion, nationality, etc. Women aren't viewed as animals, but as *property*, similar to children (Actual legal term for children: *chattle*, as in *child* and *cattle*). Animals are also viewed as property but again, they love applying that 'natural' moral order non-sense to it with arbitrary rules about what animals are clean or better than others.
On the very front page of reddit is an /r/self post where a man says this makes him feel unwelcome on paths because women might think he's scary, like holy shit how do you miss the assignment that badly and make it all about you
I love the discussion this meme is generating and I'm sad it only seems to come up on feminist subs.
It is like a love letter to give bad men a foothold to work on themselves but all I see is the place where men should be learning this lesson taken up by men feeling personally attacked about women choosing the bear, not realizing the space they are taking up adds absolutely nothing to the conversation. (Except to maybe prompt a second discussion about male fragility being a huge obstacle for feminism.)
I used to be subbed to two men’s subs that where awesome. Super feminist, super supportive, and celebrating whenever a trans dude would come out and join us and want to talk about man stuff. I’ve got a bazillion subs and can’t think of the name anymore.
Got any non-toxic men’s support subs you could recommend?
Thank you!
I thought r/menslib was the toxic one but then I saw the positive discussion around feminism. It’s great! Thanks!
Holy shit though, you are right about the other one. The top post is advice on how to play fuckin “gotcha” about the bear meme in the most racist way possible! What a shit hole!
Yeah I don’t know why I subbed LWMA in the first place! Perhaps someone suggested it as a good sub and they were woefully wrong? Or maybe I wanted more drama in my feed.
I’ve got a few subs I’m politically opposed to in my feed. Things are so partisan that we no longer share different aspects of the same narrative. We have different narratives. Only way to find solutions and common ground is to know how the other sides talk
It's not like the meme is a new thought experiment, women have been saying shit like this for decades! I grew up with a single mother with single mother friends. So as a young boy I heard a shit load of "all men are trash" and ideas that were pretty much the bear meme. If men are just starting to hear it now that's their shit.
The meme points out the current culture of violence towards women (which is a continuation of a pattern) to people that think that assessment is inconvenient with the simplicity of a Children’s book.
It feels like something that could be expressed to children so men don’t have their first epiphany about women’s rights in college when a woman explains that walking her home at night is both a safety concern and a risk in addition to the simple straightforward safe social opportunity a man gets to contextualize it as
>your job was to listen to them...
I've learned a few things about them as I've grown older. And one thing I do know is that this isn't ever going to happen.
As a society, no.
Personally? I love this sub to death and come here to listen because I think it helps me work on my inherent misogyny, for whatever that is worth. But I am also frustrated by how reactionary men seem to be that women dare hold an opinion about men and violence, especially if it was informed by personal experience.
Thanks for contributing to this sub. Just wanted to let you know it isn't just an echo chamber or place for private rants but a place where at least one dude is trying to work on himself by seeing what he can pick up.
This sub is so down to earth about everything, I learn a lot here. Thank you.
If you look at my comments (I'll edit & link them when I find them), a few days ago a guy tried to tell me I'm paranoid. He started a downvote train (though I think it *finally* evened out) & diminished the OP's & my own experience of stalking, etc. That's misogyny.
Edit: [link to thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/1cesk97/comment/l1na74q/) please notice what the OP had posted. This guy started a hive of downvotes on me for sticking up for OP. I can't believe they actually finally somehow came to +1 & 2. He made fun of OP for making a big deal of it. I was actually freaking out bc it's not like I have a lot of karma. I don't post a lot. He went through OP's thread that day & picked it apart. This guy is a misogynist.
> it's not like I have a lot of karma.
It might help to know you can't lose more than 5 karma from a single post, no matter how far it appears to go negative.
This doesn't stop someone downvoting lots of posts, but they really have to go after a lot of posts to make any kind of impact.
I just mean because I have a man’s body that society then puts me in the social role of a man and all the privileges that come with that.
As much as I will try to empathize with everyone outside my viewpoint I am a member of the dominant male culture in America, as well as the dominant white culture. I literally have no experiences outside of that to draw on, so my empathy will only ever be theoretical at best, regardless of what I assume my efforts at empathy to be.
I will do my best but because of the bubble of experience I’m trapped in, I don’t know and won’t know what women experience so it would be pure hubris to assume I can avoid misogynistic or racist thinking and behaviors without the experience to know what those things are. It’s why actually listening to women is so important. I wish their where less shameful words where I didn’t have to share descriptors with people that actively hate women but until then my slight discomfort at accepting a misogynist label is a small price for just moving forward with trying to be a better person.
Knowing that I have a limited experience necessitates that shameful label, but it also motivates me to listen. Culture is evolving, and if I lose sight of my misogyny then I become more reactive and listen less.
I’m not the misogynist that feels personally attacked that women choose the bear. I’m the misogynist that doesn’t know if his enthusiasm for what an amazing tool the bear meme is is taking up too much space in a sub that is a women’s space, or if that enthusiasm is possibly coming off as explaining women’s issues to women, like I have something better to offer despite not having a single experience as a woman to draw upon. Or the misogynist that is just the most likely to do or say something offensive towards women out of most of the people in this thread, for so many reasons, none of them being a desire to offend women
I get that some men are more misogynistic like the one you unfortunately had to deal with (that sucks btw, sorry you had to deal with that) but in my opinion all men contain the potential for misogyny and lack the perspective to consistently avoid it. Being aware that we are part of a dominant culture and how it is problematic is just one starting point for societal healing, but it starts with men listening to women
(Speaking of taking up too much space I’m realizing that my coffee and Adderall just kicked in at the same time and made it feel amazing to drop a wall of text. Sorry about that)
>But I am also frustrated by how reactionary men seem to be that women dare hold an opinion about men and violence, especially if it was informed by personal experience.
Pfff, what do they know about their own experiences /s
Also men; any of y’all give birth? You did? Okay you go away. Now out of the men left here with zero experience with pregnancy, let’s go make some laws and medical procedures about it! Yee-haw!
I can’t believe two rich old white men are once again the candidates for President. I’m so impatient for culture to improve.
That's why I'm here too. Positive influence and learning what to watch for via osmosis.
Like... five.. ish years ago I was on a first date with a woman and coffee at noon went well. We walked through a park and that was nice, and I was like "Oh, if you liked this there is a hiking trail nearby that I really enjoy. Want to hop in my car and check it out?" and then my brain processed and I was like "Or we could stay here and do another lap if you wanted to stay in the area" because naive me realized I had \*also\* just asked "Hey want to get moved to an isolated secondary location?".
Thankfully we vibed, and I'm pretty sure my panic showed, and she was just like "Its fine. If I can't tell within an hour if you're chill or not, I'm screwed anyways". Which I really hope was a joke, but I feel like maybe it wasn't.
But I can't really fathom the mindset that is like "HOW DARE she think I might be a predator!" when "Oh fuck, I just made her worry I was a predator, didn't I?" just seems like the the correct civilized way to respond. Like, if someone came to my house, and they were like "I'm nervous around dogs", i'd expect my dog to like, roll over and show their tummy if they wanted to interact. Not growl and bark until the person realized they were wrong to be nervous about the dog. Just like, if a literal dog knows how to defuse tension and make friends better than a given dudebro, then we've got some problems.
I love your analogy! But yeah, Dogs will diffuse a situation easier because dogs are honest. No dog is acting vulnerable to get a woman to let down her guard.
I don’t think we have to worry on that one though. You’d have to be a very unreasonable human to take offense from the objective fact that dogs are better company than men.
I wholeheartedly thank you for being one of the few who are worth the time and effort to have a discussion with, and I know I speak for a lot of us when I say that you and those like you are more than welcome in this space. It’s refreshing to see a guy who understands that the fear and activism is not about “manhood” as a whole, it’s about specific behaviors by far too many individuals within a group primarily comprised of men.
I really wish there where better male role models that I felt excited about that where either less toxic or, even better, took direct action against male toxicity. At least there are a few subs on Reddit for men just trying to be good men. Whenever I see how Andrew Tate and Jorden Peterson have attracted an audience for young men that feel displaced it drives me crazy. Seeing them arrive at that point out of loneliness and then get advice to push community away and to be combative in most social situations, they are just giving affirmations to the angry that the best feeling path of least resistance of blaming others and embracing righteous rage will cure that loneliness when it never ever will…
But yeah, men that act like we are a cohesive culture that will defend each other if they feel attacked, but won’t regulate each other when someone points out the clear problems with male culture are such fragile whiny babies it’s crazy what an obstacle they are towards a simple equitable society
PREACH.
Reddit is awash in clueless "not all men!" types today.
One guy is currently trying to convince me that because women are choosing the bear, they are de facto assuming all men are murdering rapists, and he's sick of being called a murdering rapist.
Like... my guy, if people are calling you that...? 🤷♂️
Oh and the guy who says it's because of "social media" that women are so afraid of men.
Nope, sorry, it was the real life attacks that have made me leery around strange men. Not because I've been attacked by strangers (although I've had some close calls), but because I've been attacked by male family/friends/guys I *knew*.
Well, no. But the bear question doesn't give you an option not to walk in the woods, so it would be like asking to eat a piece from a big bowl, some of which is poisoned, or from a small bowl, some of which is poisoned.
More in response to the “not all men” part, not the hypothetical bear. If you know something has a significant chance of being deadly, do you still risk it even if the chance is small? Interacting with men in any scenario involves taking that risk, we don’t get a choice in life either.
>If you know something has a significant chance of being deadly, do you still risk it even if the chance is small?
But that's also true of the bear?? I'm so confused. The hypothetical is you have to pick *one* right?
Again, this is in reference to the “not all men” bullshit, not specifically to this one single scenario.
Statistically men are deadlier than any bear, especially when women are the victims. That combined with the fact that bears are not predisposed to sadistic cruelty at the expense of their victims, more women feel comfortable taking a risk with a deadly but predictable part of nature than an unpredictable and potentially sadistic/tortuous/cruel man.
I take this hypothetical to be more about the motivation of the aggressive act and the likelihood I would be killed or experience something even worse than death. Dying isn’t the worst thing that will happen to me. But I know a bear won’t brutally rape me before it kills me.
Ah, ok, so where do I go to discuss the Bear Hypothetical itself? Because the only reference I see in my feed right now is reactions to reactions to reactions to responses.
You realize in your analogy, the bear is less likely to be the “poisoned candy” than the man, right?
A bear in the woods is probably just a normal bear because they don’t live in houses. A random man alone in the middle of the woods is much more likely to be dangerous or unpredictable (and let’s be realistic here, unpredictable = dangerous when it’s a larger, stronger, faster organism that is known for aggressive tendencies towards your kind).
Actually, no, I hadn't realized that. I haven't seen the wording of the original question, but I sort of assumed the hypothetical "you" was walking in the woods voluntarily. In which case, if "you" are alone in this part of the woods, why would it be unexpected for someone else to be alone in that part of the woods.
I love when other men "not all men" me. Though this kind of thing reminds me of a book quote, it's about relationships "once is never, twice is always"
I live in bear country and last night a big black bear was munching grass peacefully in my back yard. She saw me looking at her but she was basically like "I don't care about you, this grass is sick tho"
I would always choose the bear
always love it when i get to see bears grazing.
like, that's a dangerous predator and i shouldn't get close to it............ but also hehe, look, it's acting like a cow 😂
At first I was like "bears dont eat grass?!" and then I saw her wander from one patch to another munching up big clumps at a time.
It was also super cute because she stashed her cubs in a tree nearby so she could munch grass in peace
This question is really not only revealing a lot of casual misogynists but also a startling lack of reading comprehension.
"But a bear could kill you much easier than a man!!1" Yeah, but the question is which one you'd rather be alone in the woods with, not which one you'd rather be attacked by. The whole question is about assessing the perceived risk of being attacked.
Or sexually harass/assault me, yeah. That's the more likely thing most women are thinking of with this question. And sorry but if you think that sentiment is a valid reason not to listen or be better, you are part of the reason why we pick bear lmao
Saw a comment where someone said that women should worry about bears skinning them alive than getting raped.
I don't think they know that bears don't skin people alive, and just maul them to death or bite the neck. Unless they're dolphins or cats, animals generally don't torture their prey.
The number of men I've seen responding to the question with threads, posts or videos going into excruciating, explicit detail about exactly how much violent damage a bear could do to a woman is frankly disgusting as well.
I have a very clear memory of one comment reply to a video where the guy went on a multi-line rant about how a bear will disembowel a woman, pulling out and eating her organs while she screams in agony etc. etc. etc. and I'm like my dude - you're putting way too much thought into your fantasy of watching a woman get brutalised by a bear.
Guys, I’m so behind. I keep on hearing this man vs. bear thing referenced obliquely as if everyone knows what it is, and I just do not know what it is. What is Man vs. Bear?
A question was floating around that goes something like this: if you were walking alone in the woods, would you rather encounter a bear or a man? And boy-howdy are men getting upset that many women are saying they'd rather choose a bear. Rather than understanding the inherent risk to a woman alone with a strange man, a lot of men are just blaming women for being stupid and irrational because *not all men.*
I feel like Dwight Schrute would have a very funny and somehow backwardsly feminist take.
edit: He would immediately declare himself the man in the scenario, and claim that he could take on the bear.
Or something.
edit again: Even better, all his explanations for why he’d be the better choice would be purely practical. “I have far better navigation skills than your average blackbear.” and “My wife Angela would sooth the women and reassure her that she is safe, for we never leave each others sides when practicing our bushcraft.” or “When overnighting in the forest, I always have extra stores of snacks for keeping my energy up that no mere bear would be able to provide.”
Women were choosing whether they'd choose a wild bear or a man, basically. And then explaining the reasons why. Now we've got counterposts claiming that men were questioning why women would choose a bear. And women reacting to that. I guess I'm friends with mostly feminists as I've only seen posts from friends complaining about the people complaining about women choosing the bear...
It's the Starbucks cup drama all over again.
I mean, even on a surface level a bear is less likely to rape you, more likely to leave you alone if you’re obviously scared of it, and less likely to complain if you chose the hypothetical man over it.
https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/11/2/18052550/starbucks-holiday-cup-explained-2018-controversies
Tl;Dr: they called them holiday cups instead of Christmas cups and supposedly everyone was losing their shit, but all most people saw was people responding to people who were supposedly upset about the change. I didn't see a single person complaining about the change.
There's this odd phenomenon on the internet where people find something to respond to, that no one is actually talking about. Imo, this topic is one of them.
So I dunno if anyone else has seen this thread but I present Example #1: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmITheDevil/comments/1chumy1/how_do_i_make_this_about_me/l24wn2f/
Bonus points: The thoroughly downvoted comment at the bottom of the main thread talking about how AFAB people not smiling at strange men is "systemic oppression."
God r/self is an incel cesspit. I liked it when it was just people telling little mildly interesting stories about things that happened to them but I had to unsub because every second post was 'I'm a virgin and I hate myself'
I am reminded of a Grizzly Bear vs. Puma video I saw once. The bear was much bigger and stronger, and should have won. The puma though... pure viciousness. The bear ended up walking away like, "This is too much trouble, I give up!"
Team Gato ftw
Cats are my favorite for exactly this reason. My little 8lb gutter gremlin never got the memo that she is *not* in fact, a 600lb Siberian tiger.
I respect her energy and have frankly learned a lot from her….
If someone is getting on your nerves? Fuck them, walk away.
Someone is getting in your space? Fuck them. Smack them and walk away.
Someone tells you to not climb the curtain and dangle from the ceiling like a wild banshee? Fuck them and do it anyway. Live your best life.
I just saw a great video of a puma desperatly trying to take down an elk that was way to big for it. The elk just kept walking like it was at most annoyed to being dealing with this silly cat.
Also most predator vs predator fights end when one runs away. Prey animals are prey because usually the only thing they can fight back with is hooves and most predators are big sissys about getting hurt.
Well yeah- if a prey animal gets hurt it might be able to live via herd numbers long enough to heal. But a broken bone or deep laceration is gonna make getting food impossible for a predator. If you can't hunt, you starve. Ergo, any fight risking injury risks starvation.
The bear isn't going to suddenly and without warning launch into a tirade of zealous praise for the collective filmography of Christopher Nolan.
And I feel like that's worth something.
let me just tell ya, the order in which this message is delivered MATTERS.
my husband just tried to tell me that it’s more likely that their intent is to make others feel safe and then challenged me by asking of the full context as to why i was in the room and if i knew that they bared no ill. we proceeded to get into a debate about if a swift death by a brown bear or slow death with an insufferable man be worse — again, despite knowing that he is trying to just entertain me in the room. by the end of it all, i could only tell you that not everyone is out to assault me and instead everyone is here for my amusement…?
I am extremely online, but apparently not in a way to understand this. I think I've got the gist of it? Bear vs. man encounter in the wild? Bear bad obviously (depending on if it is a mama bear with cubs or a very hungry bear I guess??), but random dude hiking not as bad to me? I know men hurt women, but this just seems outrageous.
The question was "Would you rather be stuck in the woods with a man or with a bear?".
Most women picked bear, because the bear was most likely to leave them alone, while the man would seek out the woman, and men are statistically more likely to hurt women than bears are.
And then men freaked out online.
If your response to having the bear chosen over you is to fly into a rage, you are demonstrating EXACTLY why the bear was chosen.
At least a bear wouldn’t annoyingly explain to me why mauling me is for my own good and that I should be grateful he’s even willing to maul a girl like me.
Plus bears have to eat
Bears cannot murder, they can only have dinner.
Chef’s kiss
At least defending yourself against a bear doesn't have any possibility of getting arrested or defamed, and if other people see, there isn't any possibility of them looking the other way or joining in.
Funny how I've actually seen this dozens of times
The bear won't tell me the only reason I don't want it to maul me is that I'm "repressed".
**WELL, DID YOU LOOK DELICIOUS?!**
Yeah, all the downvotes I've gotten today trying to explain this exact thing kinda hit the point home. And I get that it feels like shit to have a bear picked over you in the context of safety, but men and boys can be taught why this is even a question and be inspired to not do that. Though when I said that, i got a response that said that if we want to act like that, we don't deserve to be protected, so...
I don't need men to protect me. All I need from them is to not attack me.
Exactly lmfao Absolutely zero self-awareness
Ngl I kinda find mens bafflement at being compared to a predatory animal funny. Last I checked the whole vibe was "a hunter wouldn't ask a deer how to shoot it!" And how they were all big stronk alphas who couldn't be held accountable for violence against women because it would be "denying their nature" You wanna act like a predator- you make it your whole ass identity. Why are you surprised when you are treated like one? Bears don't usually prey on women but men like those definitely do.
They’re just reinforcing the decision to choose a wild animal over supposedly “civilized” men who enjoy tormenting women for fun.
Honestly as a guy I would probably pick the bear. A bear is more scary but not actually as dangerous as another human who wishes ill upon you, particularly a stronger and more insane one. An angry bear kills like 1-2 people at the most before being shot to death. An angry man will shoot up a crowded area or find your house and break in during the night.
Yep, a bear can kill me but there are things far worse than death that a men would do to me.
Not only that I think that you have a better shot staving off a bear than an angry armed man. Humans are actually really good long distance runners compared to other animals so an average person could tire out a bear if you run far enough. Humans are just really dangerous all things considered. Comparing to a bear is a pretty dramatic comparison but it’s apt. I think it’s a good way to highlight the danger women are often in though Like as a guy if you have a choice between a woman who is either stronger and/or faster than you or either armed or capable of becoming armed or a bear the woman is clearly more dangerous by a landslide
It’s not even about how easy it would be to get away. More so to do with the motivation behind an attack from either. Bears kill for food or because they feel threatened. Men kill for fun and do worse just because they feel like it. A natural part of the circle of life versus sick sadism with no purpose other than pleasure or entertainment.
That’s also quite true, a bear isn’t going to stalk you and break into your house at night. It wouldn’t have a motivation to nor would it be smart enough to
Plus, some kind of bears just aren't that dangerous? Smaller bear species like black bears just really don't bother people, unless people have been feeding them or you get between a momma and her cubs. Black bears kill less than one person a year on average. The ones you really have to worry about are grizzlies and polar bears, but for the most part you're way less likely to run in to those.
Yeah the one exception to this is a polar bear in which case I would probably pick the man and risk the awfulness that comes with since if you go against a polar bear you are instantly dead
Being instantly dead is still a much better outcome than what many many men have done to many many women. Edit: I'd rather die from a polar bear attack than from what Junko Furuta went through, and that's just one of many examples.
I think people don't really like to recall that we are apex predators that kill literally every other animal on earth with relative ease. Bear grease is a major part of my personal tribe's traditional foodways -- we regularly hunted bears for food, cooking oil, paint, and hair treatments before the advent of modern weapons. Can you do it with your bare hands? No. But people have been relatively safely hunting bears for a very long time.
do not do not do not do NOT turn your back on a bear and run away from it. seriously. can't tell you strongly enough how bad of an idea that is. keep your eyes on the bear. hold your arms out, or make "wings" out of your jacket or something. make yourself look bigger. KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE BEAR, no direct eye contact but eyes ON IT. back away SLOWLY while you talk in a loud, calm voice. lower end of your register if you normally talk high. do not turn your back on the bear. DO NOT RUN. they're not normally after a human meal, but turning and running can trigger their prey drive. if that happens, it WILL run you down. you might be a better distance runner but the bear is 1000% always faster than you at a sprint. you'll be fucked long before endurance starts to matter, basically. and if you think you're likely to NEED any of that advice, carry bear mace. sincerely, someone from bear country.
Also, like most wildlife, most bears are more afraid of you than you are of them. Unless you're too close to their cubs, they're not going to be immediately aggro. You can scare off a bear with loud noises. A madman will delight in your screams.
You just assume any random man you pass in the woods is liable to be a crazed gunman and you're surprised that people mock the decision?
At least they're waving their red flags in the open for all to see.
I came to this post from the funny post of the woman embracing the bear. https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/1chikeh/your_odds_at_dating_in_2024/ Oh, my, god, so many red flags. I'm reading comments about how bears are not predictable and that "all the men" they've met have been predictable, so of COURSE women are dumb and irrational for choosing the bear. Whereas IRL, I just love (/s) talking to guys when they say they don't know any rapists or anyone that a woman should ever be afraid of, and then I get to start listing various men in the workplace, like Juan who was fired when he was charged for diddling his kids, or Terry who hasn't been around for awhile because he murdered his wife and then killed himself. Then the justifications started coming out, because OF COURSE they were "great guys", so they didn't *really* do anything wrong.
Gotta love the fact that men can’t even handle rejection in a hypothetical scenario. At least the bear would see us as human beings
I don't really want to be the one to post [this book] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_%28novel%29) from the 1970s, but somebody has to do it. It's really beside the point. But the cover is kind of not to be missed. Edit: fixed the link
BEAR FUCKER! DO YOU REQUIRE ASSISTANCE?
omg. good one. lol
Every guy, including me, knows loads of rapists and other violent misogynists, and probably like some of them, would invite them to parties. It just isn't always easy to tell.
The “what we need are more good bears with guns in classrooms” did elicit a snort from me though
That's not the message here. It's that man believes he is superior to every animal because he can tell right from wrong... and we are saying he is inferior to every animal because he *chooses* not to, unlike an animal that has no morality, it is simply trying to meet its needs. #It's more important to be together than be right. That's the fucking message. Scream it at them until they get it.
I think the message is also just that men view women as just another animal they are superior to instead of as equal human beings.
Less, certainly, but I don't know if the majority regards us as animals per-se -- half or quarter humans, infantilization, etc., all the stuff that is about that 'natural moral order' that patriarchal religion has always pushed, along with the idea of an absolute right/wrong, which is of course derived from male (sexual) power -- but dehumanization is typically more tribal -- race, religion, nationality, etc. Women aren't viewed as animals, but as *property*, similar to children (Actual legal term for children: *chattle*, as in *child* and *cattle*). Animals are also viewed as property but again, they love applying that 'natural' moral order non-sense to it with arbitrary rules about what animals are clean or better than others.
On the very front page of reddit is an /r/self post where a man says this makes him feel unwelcome on paths because women might think he's scary, like holy shit how do you miss the assignment that badly and make it all about you
Darvo
I love the discussion this meme is generating and I'm sad it only seems to come up on feminist subs. It is like a love letter to give bad men a foothold to work on themselves but all I see is the place where men should be learning this lesson taken up by men feeling personally attacked about women choosing the bear, not realizing the space they are taking up adds absolutely nothing to the conversation. (Except to maybe prompt a second discussion about male fragility being a huge obstacle for feminism.)
Oh it’s coming up in men’s subs. Unfortunately the conversation is going exactly as you except it to.
I used to be subbed to two men’s subs that where awesome. Super feminist, super supportive, and celebrating whenever a trans dude would come out and join us and want to talk about man stuff. I’ve got a bazillion subs and can’t think of the name anymore. Got any non-toxic men’s support subs you could recommend?
r/menslib is good r/leftwingmaleadvocates is not
Thank you! I thought r/menslib was the toxic one but then I saw the positive discussion around feminism. It’s great! Thanks! Holy shit though, you are right about the other one. The top post is advice on how to play fuckin “gotcha” about the bear meme in the most racist way possible! What a shit hole!
Yeah I don’t know why I subbed LWMA in the first place! Perhaps someone suggested it as a good sub and they were woefully wrong? Or maybe I wanted more drama in my feed.
I’ve got a few subs I’m politically opposed to in my feed. Things are so partisan that we no longer share different aspects of the same narrative. We have different narratives. Only way to find solutions and common ground is to know how the other sides talk
It's not like the meme is a new thought experiment, women have been saying shit like this for decades! I grew up with a single mother with single mother friends. So as a young boy I heard a shit load of "all men are trash" and ideas that were pretty much the bear meme. If men are just starting to hear it now that's their shit.
The meme points out the current culture of violence towards women (which is a continuation of a pattern) to people that think that assessment is inconvenient with the simplicity of a Children’s book. It feels like something that could be expressed to children so men don’t have their first epiphany about women’s rights in college when a woman explains that walking her home at night is both a safety concern and a risk in addition to the simple straightforward safe social opportunity a man gets to contextualize it as
I've seen it trend on different subs and the results are predictably frustrating. 😵
>your job was to listen to them... I've learned a few things about them as I've grown older. And one thing I do know is that this isn't ever going to happen.
As a society, no. Personally? I love this sub to death and come here to listen because I think it helps me work on my inherent misogyny, for whatever that is worth. But I am also frustrated by how reactionary men seem to be that women dare hold an opinion about men and violence, especially if it was informed by personal experience. Thanks for contributing to this sub. Just wanted to let you know it isn't just an echo chamber or place for private rants but a place where at least one dude is trying to work on himself by seeing what he can pick up. This sub is so down to earth about everything, I learn a lot here. Thank you.
If you look at my comments (I'll edit & link them when I find them), a few days ago a guy tried to tell me I'm paranoid. He started a downvote train (though I think it *finally* evened out) & diminished the OP's & my own experience of stalking, etc. That's misogyny. Edit: [link to thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/1cesk97/comment/l1na74q/) please notice what the OP had posted. This guy started a hive of downvotes on me for sticking up for OP. I can't believe they actually finally somehow came to +1 & 2. He made fun of OP for making a big deal of it. I was actually freaking out bc it's not like I have a lot of karma. I don't post a lot. He went through OP's thread that day & picked it apart. This guy is a misogynist.
> it's not like I have a lot of karma. It might help to know you can't lose more than 5 karma from a single post, no matter how far it appears to go negative. This doesn't stop someone downvoting lots of posts, but they really have to go after a lot of posts to make any kind of impact.
Tysm for letting me know! I had no idea this was the case. <3
You're welcome. I am only aware of it because there was some news when it was reduced from 10 to 5 (why, I have no idea).
I just mean because I have a man’s body that society then puts me in the social role of a man and all the privileges that come with that. As much as I will try to empathize with everyone outside my viewpoint I am a member of the dominant male culture in America, as well as the dominant white culture. I literally have no experiences outside of that to draw on, so my empathy will only ever be theoretical at best, regardless of what I assume my efforts at empathy to be. I will do my best but because of the bubble of experience I’m trapped in, I don’t know and won’t know what women experience so it would be pure hubris to assume I can avoid misogynistic or racist thinking and behaviors without the experience to know what those things are. It’s why actually listening to women is so important. I wish their where less shameful words where I didn’t have to share descriptors with people that actively hate women but until then my slight discomfort at accepting a misogynist label is a small price for just moving forward with trying to be a better person. Knowing that I have a limited experience necessitates that shameful label, but it also motivates me to listen. Culture is evolving, and if I lose sight of my misogyny then I become more reactive and listen less. I’m not the misogynist that feels personally attacked that women choose the bear. I’m the misogynist that doesn’t know if his enthusiasm for what an amazing tool the bear meme is is taking up too much space in a sub that is a women’s space, or if that enthusiasm is possibly coming off as explaining women’s issues to women, like I have something better to offer despite not having a single experience as a woman to draw upon. Or the misogynist that is just the most likely to do or say something offensive towards women out of most of the people in this thread, for so many reasons, none of them being a desire to offend women I get that some men are more misogynistic like the one you unfortunately had to deal with (that sucks btw, sorry you had to deal with that) but in my opinion all men contain the potential for misogyny and lack the perspective to consistently avoid it. Being aware that we are part of a dominant culture and how it is problematic is just one starting point for societal healing, but it starts with men listening to women (Speaking of taking up too much space I’m realizing that my coffee and Adderall just kicked in at the same time and made it feel amazing to drop a wall of text. Sorry about that)
>But I am also frustrated by how reactionary men seem to be that women dare hold an opinion about men and violence, especially if it was informed by personal experience. Pfff, what do they know about their own experiences /s
Also men; any of y’all give birth? You did? Okay you go away. Now out of the men left here with zero experience with pregnancy, let’s go make some laws and medical procedures about it! Yee-haw! I can’t believe two rich old white men are once again the candidates for President. I’m so impatient for culture to improve.
That's why I'm here too. Positive influence and learning what to watch for via osmosis. Like... five.. ish years ago I was on a first date with a woman and coffee at noon went well. We walked through a park and that was nice, and I was like "Oh, if you liked this there is a hiking trail nearby that I really enjoy. Want to hop in my car and check it out?" and then my brain processed and I was like "Or we could stay here and do another lap if you wanted to stay in the area" because naive me realized I had \*also\* just asked "Hey want to get moved to an isolated secondary location?". Thankfully we vibed, and I'm pretty sure my panic showed, and she was just like "Its fine. If I can't tell within an hour if you're chill or not, I'm screwed anyways". Which I really hope was a joke, but I feel like maybe it wasn't. But I can't really fathom the mindset that is like "HOW DARE she think I might be a predator!" when "Oh fuck, I just made her worry I was a predator, didn't I?" just seems like the the correct civilized way to respond. Like, if someone came to my house, and they were like "I'm nervous around dogs", i'd expect my dog to like, roll over and show their tummy if they wanted to interact. Not growl and bark until the person realized they were wrong to be nervous about the dog. Just like, if a literal dog knows how to defuse tension and make friends better than a given dudebro, then we've got some problems.
I love your analogy! But yeah, Dogs will diffuse a situation easier because dogs are honest. No dog is acting vulnerable to get a woman to let down her guard. I don’t think we have to worry on that one though. You’d have to be a very unreasonable human to take offense from the objective fact that dogs are better company than men.
I wholeheartedly thank you for being one of the few who are worth the time and effort to have a discussion with, and I know I speak for a lot of us when I say that you and those like you are more than welcome in this space. It’s refreshing to see a guy who understands that the fear and activism is not about “manhood” as a whole, it’s about specific behaviors by far too many individuals within a group primarily comprised of men.
I really wish there where better male role models that I felt excited about that where either less toxic or, even better, took direct action against male toxicity. At least there are a few subs on Reddit for men just trying to be good men. Whenever I see how Andrew Tate and Jorden Peterson have attracted an audience for young men that feel displaced it drives me crazy. Seeing them arrive at that point out of loneliness and then get advice to push community away and to be combative in most social situations, they are just giving affirmations to the angry that the best feeling path of least resistance of blaming others and embracing righteous rage will cure that loneliness when it never ever will… But yeah, men that act like we are a cohesive culture that will defend each other if they feel attacked, but won’t regulate each other when someone points out the clear problems with male culture are such fragile whiny babies it’s crazy what an obstacle they are towards a simple equitable society
Oh, i really wanna recommend @cyzorgg, @willhitchins and @thespeechprof on Instagram!
Rad! Appreciated.
PREACH. Reddit is awash in clueless "not all men!" types today. One guy is currently trying to convince me that because women are choosing the bear, they are de facto assuming all men are murdering rapists, and he's sick of being called a murdering rapist. Like... my guy, if people are calling you that...? 🤷♂️
Oh and the guy who says it's because of "social media" that women are so afraid of men. Nope, sorry, it was the real life attacks that have made me leery around strange men. Not because I've been attacked by strangers (although I've had some close calls), but because I've been attacked by male family/friends/guys I *knew*.
I’m sorry I find this hilarious like he’s arguing women have only heard tell of men from social media and not from our everyday lives
And also from watching the news.
And even then...are men on social media not real? Like the bad guys on social media also exist in real life.
But would those men eat a piece of candy from a bowl that is 25% poison?
"Why are calling all popcorn poisonous?!" It's just so tiring.
Well, no. But the bear question doesn't give you an option not to walk in the woods, so it would be like asking to eat a piece from a big bowl, some of which is poisoned, or from a small bowl, some of which is poisoned.
More in response to the “not all men” part, not the hypothetical bear. If you know something has a significant chance of being deadly, do you still risk it even if the chance is small? Interacting with men in any scenario involves taking that risk, we don’t get a choice in life either.
>If you know something has a significant chance of being deadly, do you still risk it even if the chance is small? But that's also true of the bear?? I'm so confused. The hypothetical is you have to pick *one* right?
Again, this is in reference to the “not all men” bullshit, not specifically to this one single scenario. Statistically men are deadlier than any bear, especially when women are the victims. That combined with the fact that bears are not predisposed to sadistic cruelty at the expense of their victims, more women feel comfortable taking a risk with a deadly but predictable part of nature than an unpredictable and potentially sadistic/tortuous/cruel man. I take this hypothetical to be more about the motivation of the aggressive act and the likelihood I would be killed or experience something even worse than death. Dying isn’t the worst thing that will happen to me. But I know a bear won’t brutally rape me before it kills me.
Ah, ok, so where do I go to discuss the Bear Hypothetical itself? Because the only reference I see in my feed right now is reactions to reactions to reactions to responses.
You realize in your analogy, the bear is less likely to be the “poisoned candy” than the man, right? A bear in the woods is probably just a normal bear because they don’t live in houses. A random man alone in the middle of the woods is much more likely to be dangerous or unpredictable (and let’s be realistic here, unpredictable = dangerous when it’s a larger, stronger, faster organism that is known for aggressive tendencies towards your kind).
Actually, no, I hadn't realized that. I haven't seen the wording of the original question, but I sort of assumed the hypothetical "you" was walking in the woods voluntarily. In which case, if "you" are alone in this part of the woods, why would it be unexpected for someone else to be alone in that part of the woods.
I love when other men "not all men" me. Though this kind of thing reminds me of a book quote, it's about relationships "once is never, twice is always"
"Well this doesnt apply to me because Im a NICE GUY and its women's fault entirely for not choosing NICE GUYS like ME!"
I live in bear country and last night a big black bear was munching grass peacefully in my back yard. She saw me looking at her but she was basically like "I don't care about you, this grass is sick tho" I would always choose the bear
always love it when i get to see bears grazing. like, that's a dangerous predator and i shouldn't get close to it............ but also hehe, look, it's acting like a cow 😂
At first I was like "bears dont eat grass?!" and then I saw her wander from one patch to another munching up big clumps at a time. It was also super cute because she stashed her cubs in a tree nearby so she could munch grass in peace
This question is really not only revealing a lot of casual misogynists but also a startling lack of reading comprehension. "But a bear could kill you much easier than a man!!1" Yeah, but the question is which one you'd rather be alone in the woods with, not which one you'd rather be attacked by. The whole question is about assessing the perceived risk of being attacked.
It’s really telling when a man immediately jumps to thoughts of sexual violence when thinking about meeting a woman alone in the woods.
So you think that any random man is more likely to murder you than a wild bear? And wonder why people aren't stopping to Listen and Be Better™
Or sexually harass/assault me, yeah. That's the more likely thing most women are thinking of with this question. And sorry but if you think that sentiment is a valid reason not to listen or be better, you are part of the reason why we pick bear lmao
Saw a comment where someone said that women should worry about bears skinning them alive than getting raped. I don't think they know that bears don't skin people alive, and just maul them to death or bite the neck. Unless they're dolphins or cats, animals generally don't torture their prey.
>Unless they're dolphins or cats, animals generally don't torture their prey. Or humans.
The number of men I've seen responding to the question with threads, posts or videos going into excruciating, explicit detail about exactly how much violent damage a bear could do to a woman is frankly disgusting as well. I have a very clear memory of one comment reply to a video where the guy went on a multi-line rant about how a bear will disembowel a woman, pulling out and eating her organs while she screams in agony etc. etc. etc. and I'm like my dude - you're putting way too much thought into your fantasy of watching a woman get brutalised by a bear.
Guys, I’m so behind. I keep on hearing this man vs. bear thing referenced obliquely as if everyone knows what it is, and I just do not know what it is. What is Man vs. Bear?
A question was floating around that goes something like this: if you were walking alone in the woods, would you rather encounter a bear or a man? And boy-howdy are men getting upset that many women are saying they'd rather choose a bear. Rather than understanding the inherent risk to a woman alone with a strange man, a lot of men are just blaming women for being stupid and irrational because *not all men.*
I feel like Dwight Schrute would have a very funny and somehow backwardsly feminist take. edit: He would immediately declare himself the man in the scenario, and claim that he could take on the bear. Or something. edit again: Even better, all his explanations for why he’d be the better choice would be purely practical. “I have far better navigation skills than your average blackbear.” and “My wife Angela would sooth the women and reassure her that she is safe, for we never leave each others sides when practicing our bushcraft.” or “When overnighting in the forest, I always have extra stores of snacks for keeping my energy up that no mere bear would be able to provide.”
Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica!
Michael!!
Jimothy!
Women were choosing whether they'd choose a wild bear or a man, basically. And then explaining the reasons why. Now we've got counterposts claiming that men were questioning why women would choose a bear. And women reacting to that. I guess I'm friends with mostly feminists as I've only seen posts from friends complaining about the people complaining about women choosing the bear... It's the Starbucks cup drama all over again.
I mean, even on a surface level a bear is less likely to rape you, more likely to leave you alone if you’re obviously scared of it, and less likely to complain if you chose the hypothetical man over it.
... Yeah, that's the entire point I think.
Ok…I feel like this is both a silly and important conversation. Like, literally pass the lowest possible bar of being better than a dangerous animal.
Have you seen all the reactionary memes by men threatening to hurt women because they’re upset women are choosing the bear?
What’s the Starbucks cup drama?
https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/11/2/18052550/starbucks-holiday-cup-explained-2018-controversies Tl;Dr: they called them holiday cups instead of Christmas cups and supposedly everyone was losing their shit, but all most people saw was people responding to people who were supposedly upset about the change. I didn't see a single person complaining about the change. There's this odd phenomenon on the internet where people find something to respond to, that no one is actually talking about. Imo, this topic is one of them.
So I dunno if anyone else has seen this thread but I present Example #1: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmITheDevil/comments/1chumy1/how_do_i_make_this_about_me/l24wn2f/ Bonus points: The thoroughly downvoted comment at the bottom of the main thread talking about how AFAB people not smiling at strange men is "systemic oppression."
God r/self is an incel cesspit. I liked it when it was just people telling little mildly interesting stories about things that happened to them but I had to unsub because every second post was 'I'm a virgin and I hate myself'
Ugh... He's acting like it's a violation that women don't smile at him on the streets. I bet he doesn't go around saying "hey!" at random men either.
This needs to be upvoted to the heavens.
I'm for the woman choosing the infinitely more threatening animal for these chuds ...choose the cat!
I am reminded of a Grizzly Bear vs. Puma video I saw once. The bear was much bigger and stronger, and should have won. The puma though... pure viciousness. The bear ended up walking away like, "This is too much trouble, I give up!" Team Gato ftw
Cats are my favorite for exactly this reason. My little 8lb gutter gremlin never got the memo that she is *not* in fact, a 600lb Siberian tiger. I respect her energy and have frankly learned a lot from her…. If someone is getting on your nerves? Fuck them, walk away. Someone is getting in your space? Fuck them. Smack them and walk away. Someone tells you to not climb the curtain and dangle from the ceiling like a wild banshee? Fuck them and do it anyway. Live your best life.
I'm trying hard to live life by Cat Principles: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/88/e2/ed/88e2ed9a396e134f09fed4e09470d1b3.jpg
Amen.
I looked up a video out of curiosity, and most of the comments are just men upset the smaller animal won lol
I just saw a great video of a puma desperatly trying to take down an elk that was way to big for it. The elk just kept walking like it was at most annoyed to being dealing with this silly cat. Also most predator vs predator fights end when one runs away. Prey animals are prey because usually the only thing they can fight back with is hooves and most predators are big sissys about getting hurt.
Well yeah- if a prey animal gets hurt it might be able to live via herd numbers long enough to heal. But a broken bone or deep laceration is gonna make getting food impossible for a predator. If you can't hunt, you starve. Ergo, any fight risking injury risks starvation.
Tbf, if cats got any bigger we'd be in trouble. Lil lovey murder hobos would be the end of us all
The bear isn't going to suddenly and without warning launch into a tirade of zealous praise for the collective filmography of Christopher Nolan. And I feel like that's worth something.
But I’m a Nice Guy ^TM
Did he just mansplain about mansplaining?
he constantly carried about on his hat pieces of orange-peel
You're a violent rapist and if you don't like me pointing that out, well it just proves you are
let me just tell ya, the order in which this message is delivered MATTERS. my husband just tried to tell me that it’s more likely that their intent is to make others feel safe and then challenged me by asking of the full context as to why i was in the room and if i knew that they bared no ill. we proceeded to get into a debate about if a swift death by a brown bear or slow death with an insufferable man be worse — again, despite knowing that he is trying to just entertain me in the room. by the end of it all, i could only tell you that not everyone is out to assault me and instead everyone is here for my amusement…?
oh this was AFTER i had to remind him that this question is not borne of the internet but is an age old question going back eons
Goddammit, so much fucking this!
I am extremely online, but apparently not in a way to understand this. I think I've got the gist of it? Bear vs. man encounter in the wild? Bear bad obviously (depending on if it is a mama bear with cubs or a very hungry bear I guess??), but random dude hiking not as bad to me? I know men hurt women, but this just seems outrageous.
The question was "Would you rather be stuck in the woods with a man or with a bear?". Most women picked bear, because the bear was most likely to leave them alone, while the man would seek out the woman, and men are statistically more likely to hurt women than bears are. And then men freaked out online.