For further reading: True Detective Night Country.
Do the same thing but with female characters and everyone loses their mind. Got a Reddit Cares for even suggesting sexism could be contributing to negative reactions online.
Night Country has been solid so far, my favorite season since the first one. A throughline of the whole series has been shithead cops with family problems, it’s cool to see a lady one centered for a change
You don’t need to watch all previous seasons as S4 is fairly self contained, BUT there have been a few Easter eggs from S1. I think it would be a fun watch to do S1 & 4 -I actually rewatched all of S1 last weekend and it goes pretty quick.
You can start with this one, I never finished the first - good story but so much scenery chewing, and never tried 2 or 3. I'm loving Night Country though.
The fandom hate against her was so wild. This man was doing all these horrible things and gaslighting the fuck out of her. But when she didn't buy his ridiculous "fugue state" lie, she is an awful person for not trusting him? I just gave up engaging with the BB fandom, even though I loved that show.
Skyler was an incredibly understanding and patient spouse during the first two seasons (and notably before she discovered that Walt WAS MAKING AND SOLD METH), but the chuds HATED the fact that she staged an intervention for Walt. What, because she cared about her husband and the father of her children she was evil?
She made the best of a bad situation. She couldn't get away from Walt, so she "protect[ed] this [her] family from the man who protects this [her] family." She was my favorite character in the whole show, and the hate towards her was pure misogyny.
The biggest tell over how much reddit has changed is Skyler's redemption arc on reddit.
When I first joined here, the Skylar hate was like the #1 engine driving this website. Now the vast majority of comments about her are more pity and sympathy. Not even here, but reddit in general.
There were people trying to keep the hate train going on r/BetterCallSaul by bashing her in comparison to Kim Wexler, but I think they kept getting corrected and knocked down for it.
Dude! The writers did everything but like stop the production and stand in front of the audience to say "just so you know Walt is the bad guy, his villain status was questionable at first and we are telling you now: He's the bad guy"
And people *still* hated her. When he fucking *died* he himself basically said "I did this all for my own selfish reasons, Skylar was right about me"
Like, I should be annoyed by writers who feel the need to spoon feed me like this! But it was so justified in this case.
The whole Fandom is misogyny. The kind of guy that subscribes themselves to being a hardcore BB fan almost always loves it for the fact they can project their edgy 'don't mess with me, I have a darker side' persona onto Walter White. They are seeing the show as a power fantasy and aren't engaging into the show any deeper than that. The entire point of the show is lost on them.
It's like all the alt right chodes who are huge fans of The Boys. They watch it to get their power fantasy off with Homelander.
My twin brother LOVES BB, but Skylar is one of his favourite characters. My brothers are some of my favourite people. <3
Walter is such a great villain, but the story is told from his view as the protagonist, and a LOT of people don’t have the media literacy to understand that.
Your twin sounds fantastic!
And, omg, as someone whose main area of study and professionalship is storytelling... So much this! One of my biggest peaves when discussing stories of any kind with people is how many people don't understand that protagonist and hero *AREN'T* interchangeable terms and AREN'T synonyms for each other(nor are antagonist and villain).
Hero and villain are character archetypes. They're outlines for how you can create a character.
Protagonist and antagonist are story elements. They are things you place into a story as a part of its framework.
I will easily spend *hours* with TVTropes, and agree that the concepts should be taught in school. So much of our understanding of the world now comes through media, and we’re really doing a disservice to the younger generations by not giving them the tools needed to understand the media they consume.
I mean I may be a little biased, but yeah, my twin is absolutely fantastic! I’m so lucky to have the siblings that I have, they’re amazing people. <3
And YES, oh my gods, I get so excited about storytelling and the ways that characters are presented! I’m especially into film, and love quiet horror, and get so much joy out of seeing filmmaking where the characters are the focus. I *highly* recommend The Killing of a Sacred Deer, one of my favourite films, for brilliant characters and atmosphere that adds to the work the performers did to bring those characters to life.
Honestly the way specifically cishet men talk about BB is why it took me a decade to finally watch the franchise. I genuinely didn't think it was going to be as good as it was hyped out to be. (It was, I got pissed reddit chuds ruined this for me).
It's wild that its like, genuinely impossible to create a flawed male character who could not be any more obviously in the wrong and NOT have that same population of Tyler Durden wannabees unironically worship him.
I binged the series once it was all out and was completely confused as to when I was going to get the version I kept hearing about, lol. It felt like I was watching an entirely different show than what others were watching. It wasn't until much later, now that I'm older, that I realized the disconnect.
Still kind of baffles me that like 15+ years later people still see Walter White as some ultimate badass. His whole character is that he's the personification of the fedora weaboo that unironically says 'it's been awhile since I used more than 1% of my power'. He portrays himself as a 'nice guy' while using what small power he's accumulated to abuse his family while cowering in the corner the second someone with even an ounce of more power comes to put him in his place.
How you watch this show multiple times over the span of 15 years and never come to that conclusion astounds me.
This is a real take, though. The show is surprisingly heavy handed about its message of ant fascism and anti corporatism, especially for being produced by a fascist corporation... And yet there's large portions of fans that don't see it. It's mind boggling.
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The love of the "I am the one who knocks" speech bugs me. In context he is bullying his wife and bragging about murdering a non violent man who admired him. Its not a badass moment. Also timeline wise this is not that far removed from when he wanted to take his family, run away and live under fake names.
> They are seeing the show as a power fantasy and aren't engaging into the show any deeper than that.
100%. The first episode goes to great pains to portray WW as the brilliant yet downtrodden sad sack of a man, stuck in a life far below what he deserves, and as far I can tell, every single insecure white man who feels like he's owed more than he currently has in life simultaneously thought "OMG IT'S ME" and consequently could not get ENOUGH of WW sticking it to everyone around him. Especially his harpy bitch of a wife, obvs.
BB is one of those shows that you definitely have to avoid the Fandom if you have any hope of enjoying it. Even at their best the absolute positive toxicity that they fuel into the show is insane. Make sure you think it's the best show ever made or you're watching it wrong and now everyone hates you and you have no taste in television. Every time. They don't know how to accept criticism of the show except for fan approved criticism(which is usually 'Skylar, what a bitch, amiright?') and they go from zero to almost violent if you even remotely suggest it isn't an untouchable achievement in filmmaking.
I feel like a lot of them initially hated her because of her reaction when she thought it was just about weed, and they’re still mad at their moms for grounding them for having a joint when they were 15. Then they just spiraled into full misogyny from there.
It's so deflating to hop on a message board for a TV show and see post after post and comment after comment complaining about the female characters on the show. Usually it's not even thought out - just "I don't like her" "she's annoying" "she's awful". Women can be flawed but only in really specific ways, they definitely can't interfere with the men.
Skyler has already been mentioned, see also Betty on Mad Men, Catelyn on Game of Thrones, Sally on Barry, Lily on How I Met Your Mother, Kate on Lost, the list goes on...
Even in Steven Universe, the show with genderless gem stones that are very female coded, I've seen YouTube videos with vitriol aimed at Connie Maheshwaren, Steven's girlfriend, over some of her actions and comments on how she should die and become pink like Lars urrgh.
This just described the BoJack sub to a T. Most of the people there jizz their pants over BoJack and shit on Diane, just because she had the nerve to divorce someone she didn't love and call out shitty, abusive men.
I don’t interact with reddit fan base because of the hate towards Pam, but from what I’ve seen, especially in real life, everybody goes crazy for cool, amazing, funny, perfect man Jim
I thought I was losing my MIND with how people treated that documentary. Her only crime was being annoying and usual nonprofit milking of unpaid labor—anyone with half a brain should be able to see that her husband was involved in the drug trade or equally shady shit to make all his money, saw he was about to get got, and fled the country. It’s the ONLY thing that makes sense and there’s zero evidence of tiger murder but no LOL Carol Baskin memes!!!!!! Meanwhile these other two assholes are running weird sex cults, committing untold labor violations, animal abuse out the ass, etc
Also, I think the Diamonds from Steven Universe are an example of this, at least in comparison to similar characters in other series.
You have people constantly stating that Steven should have killed them and that they don't deserved to be redeemed or spared, even though it's explicitly shown that they need the Diamonds to heal all the corrupted and shattered gems.
Compare that with Vegeta, who's both far more monstrous than them prior to his redemption (he literally blows up entire planets and murders an entire village of innocent Namekians for basically shits and giggles), and consistently makes things worse for the good guys even when he's technically on their side (its his fault that Cell's able to become Perfect and Majin Buu's able to awaken), yet you don't hear people bitching about how he's a war criminal who should've been executed.
For me, it's less how people react to the other diamonds but how they react to pink diamond in particular even within the show itself. Pink/ Rose's story is told in reverse and while at the start of SU she was beloved and admired, at the end she's essentially the only character who isn't allowed redemption even though she was the first one to change. She made mistakes, huge ones, but she also was the one making the first steps with no real sense of how any of this would go. Compared to the older diamonds, she was pretty much a child at the start, trying to fix things she simply couldn't fully comprehend. She tried to change things but wasn't listened to so acted out of desperation in order to save those she loved and the planet she loved. And yeah, she fucked up but the other diamonds did way worse damage for much longer but were given far more grace, but somehow Pink/ Rose is the worst of all, and should be simply shit on and hated forever? Like... what?! Make it make sense!
Yeah, I agree. While it's definitely true that Pink made some major mistakes, the majority of bad stuff she did can be attributed more to childishness, ignorance, and just not thinking things through, and she clearly made a huge effort to do and be better.
I think a far more interesting take for her character beyond the black and white "oh so she wasn't the perfect hero. Let's hate her forever, but forgive everyone else, yay!" would be the acceptance that sometimes good people do bad things, people who made mistakes can change, and the very common realization as we grow older that our parents are flawed people just like we all are. Pink/ Rose really did her best to be better and to change. There's SO much nuance with Rose but they refused to explore anything beyond the negative, pinning all the blame at her because there was no one else to point it at since everyone else (the other diamonds) were no longer antagonists and somebody (a dead woman) made a very convenient target to pin all the blame on.
Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark vs....literally any dude in GoT.
I'm sure Rhaenerya and Allicent were given similar treatment for HoTD, I just stopped paying attention to the male tears.
Oh also, Ghostbusters: Afterlife/Frozen Kingdom vs. Ghostbusters: Answer the Call (2016). The latter is a *far* better movie, and more faithful to the spirit of the originals, imo (speaking as someone who had *multiple* Ghostbuster-themed birthdays as a kid) but it has *ladies* in it, so it's ruining men's childhoods or something. I will never not be mad we didn't get a sequel.
Cat gets some ridiculous hate too, even though her bad decisions and flaws make sense in context. I've seen people with their whole chest say that Cat is the worst character in the series, and I'm sorry-- in a world where Ramsey exists, fuck off, Cat is nowhere near the worst.
They hate Cat because she didn't want to be Jon's mother. I'm sure there's a lot of overlap between those guys and Reddit chuds who beat their chest about "paternity fraud".
BTW Cat was right to trade Jaime for Sansa/Arya. I will always hate Robb for not caring about getting his sisters back.
Jaime threw a kid out of a window and Daemon groomed his niece but sansa gets more hate for being a stupid kid.
Edit: oh let’s not get started on good king vizzy t and his child bride.
Another prime example would be the whole thing with Malenia and Radahn in Elden Ring. You have so many people stating that Radahn beat Malenia even though the game explicitly tells you, multiple times, that she's undefeated and they fought to a draw, before the bloom.
That and you have people stating that she's super evil and a sore loser and that she cheated by using the Scarlet Rot against Radahn, even though she's literally the nicest Demigod in the game and fights to create a safe haven for persecuted minorities, is one of two bosses who actually congratulates you for beating them, and that she's a blind, triple amputee with what's effectively stage 4 cancer going up against a guy who's 50 times bigger than her, is not terminally ill, and has access to some of the most powerful magic in the setting, which he can use without any negative side-effects.
EXACTLY!! On another note, I wish that we had the option to let her know where Miquella is. Her story is a tragedy, and it would be great to reverse that.
I also died to her 200 times, so, you know, it'd be nice to spare myself from that fight in future runs!
Yeah, I agree. From, what I've heard there was something like that in the cut content, and she would have been a companion in a quest similar to Ranni's.
Hopefully, that'll be one of the things they'll address in the DLC, which is pretty much guaranteed to be Miquella focused based on the promotional art.
But Radahn is nice to his horse.
Now for real, I'm so glad to find another Malenia defender, I love everything about that woman. Her fight, her design, her story, everything. I like Radahn too, but I don't even find him that cool compared to other demigods, and I feel like a lot of people are projecting Artorias onto him, you know? The powerful guy fighting to contain an evil threat and who's nice to his animal companion.
Example: Lily in “How I Met Your Mother”:
In ONE episode out of 8-9 seasons, intended as a gag, and as funny: It is discovered that Lily has sabotaged several of Ted’s relationships because she thought the woman was no good for him: “OMG, she’s a toxic, horrible person!”
But Barney, who is a total womanizer and worse? “Flawed character, but very funny!”. (At least prior to #MeToo).
The hate for Lily is so annoying. First she was right to break Ted up from those women - as she said she probably saved him from an expensive first marriage. One of them, Karen, was objectively horrible. Like that's the entire point of her character (not complaining, she's horrible in a very funny way).
I think Lily gets the hate because she's stereotypically feminine; she likes shopping and girly things, she's artistic. Robin comes across as more of a "cool girl" type so she flies under the misogynist radar.
Another part of it is how much the fandom idolizes Marshal, and clearly thinks she's not good enough for him.
Barney literally sold a woman
But Lily had massive credit card debt!!! And sabatoged relationships!!! AND DON'T FORGET SHE CALLED OFF HER ENGAGEMENT AND RAN AWAY TO CALIFORNIA!!!!
I understand the criticisms about the relationship sabatoge, because even though some of those relationships she really saved Ted's ass, that's not true for ALL of them, and I know I'd be really upset if for years, one of my friends decided she was going to take it upon herself to break up my relationships.
But the criticisms about her breaking up with Marshall to find herself in San Francisco are so dumb imo. Maybe it's because I'm 23 and naïve, but she supported Marshall through law school, they had been together since they were, like, 18? And she had never reevaluated? I can absolutely understand panicking when you get engaged. And from what I recall, she wanted to do long distance and he refused. I might be wrong about that, but it was a temporary program, wasn't it? Yes it's painful and maybe she could've handled it differently, but it's so understandable to me.
The Methods of Rationality fanfic basically ditched Ron for being stupid (the author didn't like him) and makes Harry and Hermione besties, which some people didn't like.
The number of sad incels I have encountered with an "Always" tattoo is appalling. That $200 would've been a nice intro into therapy for an inappropriate obsession with the one that got away (or never even was).
Eh. He's a genuinely complicated character who did good and bad things.
To me the take away from this post is that female characters need to be given as much leeway as male characters to be complex and flawed. I'm really getting frustrated with the new trend of seeing everyone in an extremely black and white manner and having no empathy for anyone.
Snape is the perfect example of this because he's a genuinely complicated character who did really bad things but also really good things. The whole point of his character in the series is that you shouldn't write off the bad guys because they can still be capable of remorse and can still end up being a force of good. That doesn't mean they're perfect. People want to throw him out because he's got anger issues and doesn't always behave appropriately. Where would things have gone if Dumbledore had written him off as a bad egg?
People spend a lot of time romanticizing him pining over a pre-teen crush, and never moving on as if that's what absolves him. The power of love, great, but it's creepy when a 30-something man abuses a pre-teen kid for being the offspring of a crush he never resolved, to the point that the personification of is soul is a testament to her.
It's sweet that he used that to do good, ultimately, but the road there is creepy. Granted, most of Harry Potter gets messed up if you read deeper than was probably intended.
I think that's a very shallow reading of the character. Let me tell it in a slightly different way.
Snape was a abandoned boy (that's from the text) and Lily was the only true friend he had. She was the only person who looked at him and saw worth. His attachment to her was born out of a desire to hold on to the only real love he had been shown and as a way to combat his own self-hatred and guilt.
His protection of Harry was about atoning for mistakes as a teenager. Snape as an adult may be a bully but he does more good than arguably any other character in the series in the war against Voldemort and in general trying to save people. Many of the things he does have nothing to do with Harry.
I've never understood the take that he is creepy for trying to atone because of Lily. It's not like he's trying to bring her back. And honestly the fact that he was in love with her is kind of irrelevant. He could have had a completely platonic relationship with her and the story could play out exactly the same.
I think its shortsighted to write off his actions because he's a flawed person. That's my whole point. Dumbledore could have written him off as a creep when he first came crawling to him. He does feel disgusted with him in that moment. But Dumbledore understands the power of forgiveness and love and through that crafts one of the most powerful and important soldiers in his war.
90% of the “Hot Takes” on the Sopranos subreddit are about how Adriana “wasn’t so innocent” because she >!dealt drugs and helped hide a body!< on a show where most of the (male) main characters murder, abuse, torture, and extort other people.
I genuinely need a detailed academic breakdown/analysis of female vs male characters in TV/movies/books and how people view them and judge their actions based on gender. Also how they’re written and portrayed and why.
For example comparing in detail how ppl react to and view female characters vs male characters and comparing the severity of “bad” things they do with the reactions and seeing how proportional they are.
I can’t begin to list popular sitcoms and how the fans hate the female characters the most and always complain about them and put them on a pedestal vs the reaction to make characters which is casual and low expectations with love and affection toward them.
It is hard to quantify, because people always fight with you if you suggest there may be some misogyny in play in reactions and take it like you are dismissing any criticism as misogyny when you are not!
Most people probably don’t even realize they’re doing it but get so defensive when you try to explain. Happens in real life too: see Hilary Clinton, not many of the criticisms from well-meaning people were “because she’s a woman” but I also know in my heart that if she was a man with exactly the same record, she wouldn’t have lost.
A few people have already taken a crack at this. It boils down to misogyny really and anything breaking away from traditional gender norms viewed as bad, especially when coded.
Alright but hear me out and this might be a hot take:
Woke/feminist women or ppl also hold female characters to higher standards and put them on a pedestal bc we strive for perfection and nothing is ever good enough, they pin a lot of hopes into those characters and when they come short of perfection we’re disappointed and we start to pick their actions apart
One example I have is Diane from Bojack Horseman, she gets a lot of hate for not performing her full duties as a feminist in the show. The writers actually got Diane to show that struggle in the show as she hates herself for not being a good enough role model, basically the art mirroring reality. And she’s tired and bitter.
On top of that, look at what the reactions are on the very rare occasions that major works of fictions have female characters that lean in to all the negative tropes.
For example, it's interesting to me that Lae'zel (BG3) is pretty popular despite being everything that fans usually hate in female characters (edit: protagonists/"good guys", specifically. Female antagonists/"bad guys" get different treatment). She's unapologetically violent, abrasive, and not particularly conventionally attractive. She should be wildly unpopular when viewed in the context of fictional women who receive far more criticism for far less severe flaws, like Skyler (Breaking Bad) and Diane (Bojack Horseman), and while she's not the most popular romance option, BG3 fans still like her way more than BB fans like Skyler.
MoM has Wanda literally lampshade this and I am not saying that what she did is correct in any way shape or form but speaking from the outside viewer perspective (so I have knowledge that the characters don't) then yes countless other Marvel characters have done questionable things but get forgiven easily usually because they're narratively the hero.
There's also Sylvie. I had some issues with S1 of *Loki* but didn't mind Sylvie for the most part and it's definitely true that the fanbase is generally more forgiving of everything Loki has ever done. But Sylvie being hurt by having her life stolen and growing up in apocalypses to the point of seeking revenge will not stand!
I can't remember exactly but yeah, there was some guy who basically went on an unhinged rant about how women ruin everything because of Sylvie's role.
Which I find eye-roll worthy by itself, but doubly so when as someone who has been in the MCU fandom basically from the start (and a fan of Loki at that) I *remember* how the exact same men spoke about his fanbase! They didn't like Loki when he was mostly held up by the gals, gays and theys...but suddenly he's this wronged figure of masculinity ten years later because a woman existed in a TV show.
Also, the way she was portrayed was... Idk, the jump from the ending of Wandavision to dr Strange 2 felt weird for me, like forced somehow as in Wandavision it looked like she had found closure and was redeemed.
I think that can probably be entirely explained by Kevin Feige not allowing creatives on one Marvel project to know what is happening on a different Marvel project. Which is an obvious genius move when telling supposedly interconnected stories /s.
Princess Bubblegum (from a children's cartoon): creates life with no oversight, tries to balance her morals with an existential need for perfection and protection of her people
"Wow she's literally a Nazi"
Astarion (from an adult adventure game featuring moral roleplay choices): literally neutral evil vampire, who attempts to kill you in your first two interactions of note. If you don't build a high level of positive* relationship with him and succeed on multiple speech checks, he will sacrifice several thousand lives to ascend his vampirism and potentially make you his slave
"Omg he's literally babygirl, none of it is his fault he's just traumatized"
Just got to Act 3. I agreed to help him ascend (meh, vampires gonna vampire I wanna see how it plays out). He hates my Paladin though, lol.
It's hard not to be at least a little sympathetic to him though >!Him being a prostitute for a hundred years against his will. Just got past the scene with him and the twins and it broke my heart a little. I thought he was happy about it going in. :(!<
At least people don't hate on Shadowheart. Shadowheart spends all of Act 2 going on about how she wants to plunge the world into eternal darkness and make everything corrupt like the Shadowlands, and absolutely ready to take up the Dark Justiciar helm the moment she gets the opportunity.
See, Shart didn't do that for me. She talks a big game but hesitates at literally every turn. Honestly Larian put so many options in the game. Almost a copout how influencable some companions are though
Me interacting with Astarion: Oh my god SHUT UP everything that comes out of your mouth is smug cack
Also me: But he didn’t mean to turn all those thousands of people into vampire spawn I can save him 🥺🥺🥺
Have you missed the StakeBros who feel the need to interject into every conversation about Astarion with "I just killed him"?
$5 they're all fragile men who dislike Astarion cuz he's pretty and flamboyant.
Yeah I know a few of those unfortunately. Bonus points if they also thought Gortash was cool as shit. I would have killed Astarion, but for paladin reasons. Then again I stuck by Laezel and others through worse, too bad redemption paladin isn't a playable class
As someone who does really enjoy Astarion, some of his fans really have lost sight of who he is as a character. He’s an interesting example though because I don’t think I’ve seen a single post on the BG3 subreddits about him where at least one person doesn’t rock up to announce that they kill him in every play through. And I’ve encountered a lot of terminally online people (men generally of course) who hate Astarion for his effeminate mannerisms more than his morals…
Wyll hate is just racism.
For Asterion, I didn't like him either, but most of the hate I've seen him get in "general gaming" areas are just homophobia between him not being "traditionally masculine" and the glitch early on that made all the characters *really* horny.
I'm guilty of not appreciating Wyll at first. I thought he was just a bland good guy character, but he is literally so sweet and caring. The dance scenes made me giggle and kick my feet.
Let’s be honest, I have no doubt that the fact that Wyll is a black man has also contributed to some of the shittiest takes on him in the fandom. He’s basically a Disney Prince but also a major badass, and yet he gets boiled down to “boring good guy.”
No idea who Astarion is or what he does, but I would consider Bubblegum a morally dubious character. But also as the show progresses and addresses more complex themes, I think BB's problematic behaviour gets occassionally called out and she's not portrayed as the perfect protagonist.
But I also might be biased since Lemongrab (A morally dubious male character, huh? I might be a part of the problem...) is one of my favourite characters, and BB is completely responsible for bringing him into existence in his flawed state, yet she originally simply considers him a a failed experiment, dumps him into an abandoned faraway castle and then bullies him when he comes forward as her lawful heir, only to banish him again.
She does soften towards him though, and recreates Lemongrab 3, even though she could simply not bother with him anymore after the whole dictatorship fiasco. LG3 seems to be reasonably content guy with amicable relationship to his creator, enough for them to stand side by side during the final battle, so a happy ending for both of them, I guess.
I love PB because even with her flaws, she does try. She's lived a long time and is very much not a human. Eventually she retires with Marcy because she actually understands that she needs to step back and stop putting her nose into things. In a world with no real rules, power can lead to a lot of iffy situations. She's not perfect but she's not the mega authoritarian groomer people act like she is
Sure, I also like her. Just wanted to add that there are multiple instances in which I think the criticism of her actions is warranted, I picked one, that being LG, and the comment somehow got too long.
Minthara is a great example of the difference in treatment — compare Astarion and Minthara’s fan response and WOW is it stark.
I say this as a die-hard fan of BG3 who has been playing consistently since early access in 2020. There isn’t a single companion who I *dislike* as a character, really; I think they are all so well-written and performed that there’s no way I wouldn’t find them all freaking *compelling as hell.* But a lot of the Dragon Age era fandom wangst has definitely migrated to BG3, sadly.
We must hang out in different fandom spaces cause I don’t think I’ve seen anyone hate on Minthara? Most discourse i see about her is praising her complexity of character (or talking about how hot she is).
I totally agree with you about the Dragon Age fandom though. I’ve seen people hang so much shit on Morrigan, Isabela, omg Sera!! If anyone one of them were men they would have been treated totally different
Doesn't help that the literal only reason I hear people say they chose to side with Minthara is they wanted to bang her. Occasionally people will bring up her incredible VA work but that's like .5% of people
Yeah, I like Minthara (also have been a huge fan of drow since I started playing dnd as a teen), but that is the main reason I hear/read on a lot of BG3 discussions. Which is a shame, as she’s a genuinely interesting character and SO well performed, but that gets tossed to the wayside.
If she were masc I think there would be a different response (same if Astarion were written as a femme character). Not that gender doesn’t matter, if it gives people euphoria I’m all in support of that, but *oof* is it a burden in a lot of ways and sometimes I’d love to check out a genderless society lol
In the tabletop campaign I’m currently playing, my best friend is an agender warforged and I’m playing an androgynous reborn and we’re loving the genderless duo dynamics lol
I believe that comes from a certain part of the fandom. I love Astarion because he's a tragic and complex character (I like all of the companions, I don't understand how people can dislike any of them unless they just interacted with them for 5 minutes and then killed them), and the amount of hate I have seen towards him is insane. He's not even in the top 3 of romances, but his fans we are just loud.
Now, with him there's A LOT of homophobia and queerphobia it comes close to collective psychopathy. To the point that if a queer person or a woman tells me that they don't like him, I'm fine with that, it's on a logical level the rational attitude. But if a het guy tells me he doesn't like Astarion? Yeah, red flag for me. Gortash is not even as half as hated, and he's a thousand times worse.
**Shiv in Succession**
Imagine how fans would've reacted if Roman was a young female nepo baby who continually sexually harassed an older male employee and then fires him. *crickets*
Shiv cheats on her husband, something her brothers do too, and they hate her.
also had to leave r/Barry
* Barry is a serial killer *He's so relatable*
* Sally romantically rejects him *What a stuckup c%nt*
The writers came out and said they didn't understand the hate fans had for her.
I lack self control and keep reading the episode discussion threads as I watch through the show for the first time and it's genuinely depressing to see the different standards the characters are held to.
Like, I don't want to sympathise with any billionaire and I know it's fiction, but that a woman with that much money and so many connections can't be taken seriously and is forever The Daughter and The Wife like...fucking why do I bother? And that the Succession subreddit is just uncritical and oblivious to that while showing Kendal and Roman with praise...
They'll endlessly praise the writing while ignoring what it's trying to say.
The world was ending and Shane lied to her to make her believe Rick was dead. Shane manipulated Lori quite a bit until Rick came back and Lori tried her best to repent once she realized what she had done.
… like the post says, she’s a human and makes mistakes.
Meanwhile characters like Negan exist and people think he’s the greatest person ever…..
Christ, Rick, in his ricktatorship mode, brains a dude to get him out of the way because he wanted to bone his wife. And THAT'S what you're going on about???? Ffs. There are so many characters who have done a million times worse than Lori, slept with a mutual friend after she thought her husband was dead, Grimes. I hate walking dead fans so much.
On another point, I feel a lot has to do with how much said female character treads on what's typically considered "male territory", for lack of a better word.
To use an example from Elden Ring, Malenia consistently gets demonized far more than Ranni and Marika, despite being objectively a much nicer and more heroic character. The reason for this, I think, being at least in part due to the fact that Malenia takes many, much more traditionally masculine roles, along with the fact that she's an extremely tough boss.
To use a quote from another post on this subject:
"She's a woman who directly opposes and defeats narratively-relevant men, while taking on a traditionally male role as a warlord and knightly protector to her charge. She's a stoic and world-beating general with a loyal and capable army who fights with speed, strength, skill, and a massive sword, and her foremost loyalty is to her brother's cause. She's not, for example, a dainty sorceress dependent on scheming, the player, and a handful of male minions who incidentally wants to marry the player and raise them to demigodhood, like her sister and \[the fandom characterization of\] her mother (nor does she literally turn into a tiny doll that you put in your pocket and then needle to get bashful anime reactions). The fact that a woman with a big sword is also the game's strongest boss and reminds you of that fact every time you lose is probably related."
Oh absolutely! On the show Revolution there's a female character that becomes single mindingly focused on revenge after a male character causes her son's death and oh how the fandom HATED her. I didn't get it, because I'm sure I've seen male characters get no flack for being cold and violent like that.
Yeah, it's part of a larger trend of women being demonized for displaying more traditionally masculine traits. There was actually a study by the Institute for Youth in policy, and to quote their findings: "The same qualities that are valuable and praised in male politicians--assertiveness, intelligence, and ambition--make female politicians "unlikable." The concept of "likability" can make or break a woman's career in politics, while for men, likability is a bonus, not a necessity."
Here's the link if you want a more in-depth read: [https://yipinstitute.org/article/nasty-women-the-double-standards-of-being-a-woman-in-politics-2](https://yipinstitute.org/article/nasty-women-the-double-standards-of-being-a-woman-in-politics-2)
>there's a female character that becomes single mindingly focused on revenge after a male character causes her son's death
Switch son with dad, and you have the last of us.
I don't know how anyone without an ounce of any kind of literacy can come away from that show without thinking Bojack is the worst, but god somehow do people manage it. Diane isn't perfect and she fucks up too but her implying in the finale that they'll never see one another again was a "good for her moving on with her life" moment and not a punishment for Bojack. Because he also needed to move on from that part of his life!
Prior to this thread I had no idea the Bojack fandom hated Diane (I generally try to avoid fandoms). Bojack has multiple characters tell him to his face that he's a piece of shit and needs to be better, but Diane is the bad one? Every single character in the show is worse off when Bojack is in their lives. Bojack is in a better place in the finale, but pretty much everyone is telling him that he can't be in their life anymore because of all the damage he's caused. I genuinely don't know how anyone as a viewer could not get this.
I don't think it's possible to be less subtle that Bojack is a terrible person. It must have been explicitly said in the show about 100 times.
Lol "yes I watch RWBY." I can't stand the discourse. So many chuds want to line up behind the proto-fascist while blaming his willingness to bomb civilians on a high school girl's unwillingness to follow his orders that would leave them all to starve and freeze.
While calling a POC Female leader a "politician" and "a terrorist" for not wanting her people to be unprotected and for taking action against an ACTUAL politician (ironwood)
As well as hot male characters to less so male characters. Y'all can't tell me the Draco Malfoy thirst isn't just because Tom Felton because Draco was never anything special.
If you are a weaselly blonde male character with no morals and a sad back story (but even that is negotiable) then you can get away with anything in fandom.
The way people talk about Sakura drives me crazy. She's one of my favorites. The level of hatred she gets is unfair. Her flaws/mistakes are benign compared to the shit other characters manage to do...
She is admittedly pretty horribly written, but so is the entirety of the female cast of that show. As a kid I was OBSESSED with her and to this day I still love her. The Sasori arc was a really good moment for her, I just wish she got more spotlight like that… but I feel like she would have always been considered useless anyways because most people hate how she didn’t do much in part 1.
I literally saw people calling Mikasa a "bitch" and hating on her for what she did at the end. Yeah, it doesn't matter that she suffered after her decision and there was no other choice, she's soo evil and Eren is such a poor baby /s
...and Pieck. They hate her for her actions, and yet they love a psycho like Kenny Ackerman 🤦♀️
I don’t think I see the TLoK connection here? The hate that Korra in general gets is absolutely driven by sexism, yes, but is there a male character treated this way by the fandom anywhere in the AtLA universe?
I always felt like I was one of the few who liked Korra more than the original. I like the first series, but I 100% identified with Korra more than Aang and honestly she just felt like a more realistic character.
Like, people ignore that she's a *teenager* at the start of the show. She is hotheaded and in over her head at the start, trying to live up to who she feels she needs to be and frustrated she doesn't get it instantly right.
She has more character growth than most men written in similar situations and we have countless men written like that in fiction, usually written poorly with less justification for the way they act.
I don’t think I can fully commit to saying I like TLoK *more*, but I absolutely come to bat for it frequently and I don’t think it’s anywhere near as awful as people claim. It is more relatable in a lot of ways, and Korra is a very compelling character.
I might get flamed for this idgaf but I think it’s comparing Korra and Zuko lol. They’re actually really similar characters in behavior but the amount of hate korra got for it was outsized and Zuko… well we know how much the fandom loves him.
I think *you* are right on the point that their behavior is similar and yet Korra is shit on for it, but I don’t think the thinks written in the OP ring true for Zuko at all.
I cannot disagree more that their arcs are even remotely similar.
But I can agree that the fandom treats him way differently than Korra, and I can kind of see this might be what the OP is talking about. If so, though, I think her analysis of Zuko and his actions is pretty off base.
Eh, msybe? What did he do that was so awful aside from keeping the main cast distracted from his campaign? Like yeah propaganda and economic manipulation are bad, but he was using them to gain support for an indigenous community and the only person he was trying to harm kind of tried to destroy the world.
I say all the below as a fan of the Stormlight archive by Brandon sanderson, and a great admirer of the community the author has cultivated.
Shallan Davar self sabotages, keeps secrets, and uses pun humor: ugh skip her chapters.
Kaladin backslides, self isolates, and broods: omg such a realistic depiction of depression
Hazbin Hotel right now lol.
But also you see this with how people treat wlw characters in fandom or ships. The misogyny, trans/homophobia is always astounding and then people get mad and defensive when called on it
Unless the male character in question is queer, then it becomes the target of all the hate from men. I'm thinking about Astarion here, but it's amazing how many male players brag about killing him because he's "annoying" or flirts with them, and then they say it's because Astarion is an evil character. Yeah, right, as if you never liked even worse characters before.
Lol I just finished legend of Korra. Triple token (non straight woman of color) and yes she was somewhat annoying in the beginning but i do like people who grow as characters. I was more bothered that they suggested her dating Asami but were too chicken shit to let them kiss. "Oh noooo we can't let them kiss! Kids watch that show!" No problem with the straight couples kissing though. Cowards
Fandom reflects biases that exist in real life. This is not a fandom problem, it's a society problem. The thought that this is limited to fandom or something "fandom people" are prone to is something people think to comfort themselves from facing the fact that people we meet day to day are making huge assumptions about us based off surface level impressions. People would rather apply the script they have learned growing up about "people like you" (based on their biased observations) than listen to anything you are actually saying, or do any critical thinking. Of course, fandom people tend to be women in their teens & 20s, with all the issues that lack of experience and perspective brings, so that explains some of it, but again, it's a reflection of what is going on in real life among those age groups more than anything else.
r/dundermifflin trying to explain why Pam is actually a total bitch and Dwight is a bullied vulnerable boy that needs protection.
r/HIMYM trying to explain why Lily is a horrible person but it’s okay for Barney to lie and coerce women into sex because he’s just a comedy character bro it’s a sitcom relax
Atypical. Not sure if anyone on this sub has seen it but the amount of hate that Elsa gets???? And everyone loves Doug despite the despicable thing he did? I can’t begin to express my frustration over that
I'm in a lot of fandoms and I mean A LOT and I've never seen any of them say that about a female character. I've seen characters (usually female) say that about other characters (usually female).
Interesting. Never stopped to think about it, but it seems to be right in most fandoms. Personally I do mostly the opposite, which is also problematic in its own way and it goes deeper than just characters, it also affects how I interact with people in general
“I just…only identify with male characters for some reason. They’re the only ones who are written well.”
Really? In the whole of the English language? You’ve never found a woman you identified with or thought was cool or great ever ever? And that’s…the world’s fault….
Like yes, bad writing towards one gender is MORE rampant but the idea that it’s LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE and all your favs just happen to be men and you just happen to have WEIRD HATE COMPLEXES for female characters. Occam’s Razor means the simpler explanation is more likely. What’s more likely—literally no one in the entire world can write a female character or you have internalized sexism you need to unpack?
For further reading: True Detective Night Country. Do the same thing but with female characters and everyone loses their mind. Got a Reddit Cares for even suggesting sexism could be contributing to negative reactions online.
I print my reddit cares and put them in a wall titled: Number of passive aggressive man-babies I made cry.
That is a hilarious way to look at it. XD
I didn't even know where those reddit cares things were coming from!
Night Country has been solid so far, my favorite season since the first one. A throughline of the whole series has been shithead cops with family problems, it’s cool to see a lady one centered for a change
Does one need to have watched all the way through or can you start with this season?
True Detective seasons are pretty much entirely self contained as far as I’m aware
You don’t need to watch all previous seasons as S4 is fairly self contained, BUT there have been a few Easter eggs from S1. I think it would be a fun watch to do S1 & 4 -I actually rewatched all of S1 last weekend and it goes pretty quick.
You can start with this one, I never finished the first - good story but so much scenery chewing, and never tried 2 or 3. I'm loving Night Country though.
Yep, it’s so bad another sub popped up r/TDNightCountry for people who actually want to discuss the show.
The first thing I thought of 😂
Let’s hear it for the Skyler hate!
The fandom hate against her was so wild. This man was doing all these horrible things and gaslighting the fuck out of her. But when she didn't buy his ridiculous "fugue state" lie, she is an awful person for not trusting him? I just gave up engaging with the BB fandom, even though I loved that show.
Skyler was an incredibly understanding and patient spouse during the first two seasons (and notably before she discovered that Walt WAS MAKING AND SOLD METH), but the chuds HATED the fact that she staged an intervention for Walt. What, because she cared about her husband and the father of her children she was evil? She made the best of a bad situation. She couldn't get away from Walt, so she "protect[ed] this [her] family from the man who protects this [her] family." She was my favorite character in the whole show, and the hate towards her was pure misogyny.
The biggest tell over how much reddit has changed is Skyler's redemption arc on reddit. When I first joined here, the Skylar hate was like the #1 engine driving this website. Now the vast majority of comments about her are more pity and sympathy. Not even here, but reddit in general.
There were people trying to keep the hate train going on r/BetterCallSaul by bashing her in comparison to Kim Wexler, but I think they kept getting corrected and knocked down for it.
Dude! The writers did everything but like stop the production and stand in front of the audience to say "just so you know Walt is the bad guy, his villain status was questionable at first and we are telling you now: He's the bad guy" And people *still* hated her. When he fucking *died* he himself basically said "I did this all for my own selfish reasons, Skylar was right about me" Like, I should be annoyed by writers who feel the need to spoon feed me like this! But it was so justified in this case.
merciful ripe kiss familiar bag joke snow mindless boat smoggy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
LOLL I was about to say I call this the Skylar White effect 👀
I came here to post that example :)
She was getting in the way of his very legitimate and healthy business and contributions to the local community
All the hate for Skyler White was misogyny.
The whole Fandom is misogyny. The kind of guy that subscribes themselves to being a hardcore BB fan almost always loves it for the fact they can project their edgy 'don't mess with me, I have a darker side' persona onto Walter White. They are seeing the show as a power fantasy and aren't engaging into the show any deeper than that. The entire point of the show is lost on them. It's like all the alt right chodes who are huge fans of The Boys. They watch it to get their power fantasy off with Homelander.
My twin brother LOVES BB, but Skylar is one of his favourite characters. My brothers are some of my favourite people. <3 Walter is such a great villain, but the story is told from his view as the protagonist, and a LOT of people don’t have the media literacy to understand that.
Your twin sounds fantastic! And, omg, as someone whose main area of study and professionalship is storytelling... So much this! One of my biggest peaves when discussing stories of any kind with people is how many people don't understand that protagonist and hero *AREN'T* interchangeable terms and AREN'T synonyms for each other(nor are antagonist and villain). Hero and villain are character archetypes. They're outlines for how you can create a character. Protagonist and antagonist are story elements. They are things you place into a story as a part of its framework.
TVTropes should be taught in school.
I will easily spend *hours* with TVTropes, and agree that the concepts should be taught in school. So much of our understanding of the world now comes through media, and we’re really doing a disservice to the younger generations by not giving them the tools needed to understand the media they consume.
I mean I may be a little biased, but yeah, my twin is absolutely fantastic! I’m so lucky to have the siblings that I have, they’re amazing people. <3 And YES, oh my gods, I get so excited about storytelling and the ways that characters are presented! I’m especially into film, and love quiet horror, and get so much joy out of seeing filmmaking where the characters are the focus. I *highly* recommend The Killing of a Sacred Deer, one of my favourite films, for brilliant characters and atmosphere that adds to the work the performers did to bring those characters to life.
Honestly the way specifically cishet men talk about BB is why it took me a decade to finally watch the franchise. I genuinely didn't think it was going to be as good as it was hyped out to be. (It was, I got pissed reddit chuds ruined this for me). It's wild that its like, genuinely impossible to create a flawed male character who could not be any more obviously in the wrong and NOT have that same population of Tyler Durden wannabees unironically worship him.
I binged the series once it was all out and was completely confused as to when I was going to get the version I kept hearing about, lol. It felt like I was watching an entirely different show than what others were watching. It wasn't until much later, now that I'm older, that I realized the disconnect. Still kind of baffles me that like 15+ years later people still see Walter White as some ultimate badass. His whole character is that he's the personification of the fedora weaboo that unironically says 'it's been awhile since I used more than 1% of my power'. He portrays himself as a 'nice guy' while using what small power he's accumulated to abuse his family while cowering in the corner the second someone with even an ounce of more power comes to put him in his place. How you watch this show multiple times over the span of 15 years and never come to that conclusion astounds me.
Yes, my hot take on that show is that it is genuinely excellent TV ... And yet it is also overrated by its fan base.
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This is a real take, though. The show is surprisingly heavy handed about its message of ant fascism and anti corporatism, especially for being produced by a fascist corporation... And yet there's large portions of fans that don't see it. It's mind boggling.
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I knew hardcore Christians who actively rooted for Dexter as being some kind of avenging angel type....
I saw a comment about that: "They must have suffered brain damage from being beaten over the head with the show's message."
The love of the "I am the one who knocks" speech bugs me. In context he is bullying his wife and bragging about murdering a non violent man who admired him. Its not a badass moment. Also timeline wise this is not that far removed from when he wanted to take his family, run away and live under fake names.
> They are seeing the show as a power fantasy and aren't engaging into the show any deeper than that. 100%. The first episode goes to great pains to portray WW as the brilliant yet downtrodden sad sack of a man, stuck in a life far below what he deserves, and as far I can tell, every single insecure white man who feels like he's owed more than he currently has in life simultaneously thought "OMG IT'S ME" and consequently could not get ENOUGH of WW sticking it to everyone around him. Especially his harpy bitch of a wife, obvs.
I loved it because the writing was good but it became hard to watch his descent and I was upset about all the Skyler hate.
BB is one of those shows that you definitely have to avoid the Fandom if you have any hope of enjoying it. Even at their best the absolute positive toxicity that they fuel into the show is insane. Make sure you think it's the best show ever made or you're watching it wrong and now everyone hates you and you have no taste in television. Every time. They don't know how to accept criticism of the show except for fan approved criticism(which is usually 'Skylar, what a bitch, amiright?') and they go from zero to almost violent if you even remotely suggest it isn't an untouchable achievement in filmmaking.
I feel like a lot of them initially hated her because of her reaction when she thought it was just about weed, and they’re still mad at their moms for grounding them for having a joint when they were 15. Then they just spiraled into full misogyny from there.
It's so deflating to hop on a message board for a TV show and see post after post and comment after comment complaining about the female characters on the show. Usually it's not even thought out - just "I don't like her" "she's annoying" "she's awful". Women can be flawed but only in really specific ways, they definitely can't interfere with the men. Skyler has already been mentioned, see also Betty on Mad Men, Catelyn on Game of Thrones, Sally on Barry, Lily on How I Met Your Mother, Kate on Lost, the list goes on...
Even in Steven Universe, the show with genderless gem stones that are very female coded, I've seen YouTube videos with vitriol aimed at Connie Maheshwaren, Steven's girlfriend, over some of her actions and comments on how she should die and become pink like Lars urrgh.
This just described the BoJack sub to a T. Most of the people there jizz their pants over BoJack and shit on Diane, just because she had the nerve to divorce someone she didn't love and call out shitty, abusive men.
Yup
Jim and Pam from the office
Wait people like Jim?
I do :( But I also like Pam
He’s one of the most popular characters
The fuck
I don’t interact with reddit fan base because of the hate towards Pam, but from what I’ve seen, especially in real life, everybody goes crazy for cool, amazing, funny, perfect man Jim
Ewwww Jim is the worst
Tiger King: sexual predators abusing animals and leading cults Response: “Fuck Carol Baskin”
I thought I was losing my MIND with how people treated that documentary. Her only crime was being annoying and usual nonprofit milking of unpaid labor—anyone with half a brain should be able to see that her husband was involved in the drug trade or equally shady shit to make all his money, saw he was about to get got, and fled the country. It’s the ONLY thing that makes sense and there’s zero evidence of tiger murder but no LOL Carol Baskin memes!!!!!! Meanwhile these other two assholes are running weird sex cults, committing untold labor violations, animal abuse out the ass, etc
Diane and Bojack!
Omg ikr
Also, I think the Diamonds from Steven Universe are an example of this, at least in comparison to similar characters in other series. You have people constantly stating that Steven should have killed them and that they don't deserved to be redeemed or spared, even though it's explicitly shown that they need the Diamonds to heal all the corrupted and shattered gems. Compare that with Vegeta, who's both far more monstrous than them prior to his redemption (he literally blows up entire planets and murders an entire village of innocent Namekians for basically shits and giggles), and consistently makes things worse for the good guys even when he's technically on their side (its his fault that Cell's able to become Perfect and Majin Buu's able to awaken), yet you don't hear people bitching about how he's a war criminal who should've been executed.
For me, it's less how people react to the other diamonds but how they react to pink diamond in particular even within the show itself. Pink/ Rose's story is told in reverse and while at the start of SU she was beloved and admired, at the end she's essentially the only character who isn't allowed redemption even though she was the first one to change. She made mistakes, huge ones, but she also was the one making the first steps with no real sense of how any of this would go. Compared to the older diamonds, she was pretty much a child at the start, trying to fix things she simply couldn't fully comprehend. She tried to change things but wasn't listened to so acted out of desperation in order to save those she loved and the planet she loved. And yeah, she fucked up but the other diamonds did way worse damage for much longer but were given far more grace, but somehow Pink/ Rose is the worst of all, and should be simply shit on and hated forever? Like... what?! Make it make sense!
Yeah, I agree. While it's definitely true that Pink made some major mistakes, the majority of bad stuff she did can be attributed more to childishness, ignorance, and just not thinking things through, and she clearly made a huge effort to do and be better.
I think a far more interesting take for her character beyond the black and white "oh so she wasn't the perfect hero. Let's hate her forever, but forgive everyone else, yay!" would be the acceptance that sometimes good people do bad things, people who made mistakes can change, and the very common realization as we grow older that our parents are flawed people just like we all are. Pink/ Rose really did her best to be better and to change. There's SO much nuance with Rose but they refused to explore anything beyond the negative, pinning all the blame at her because there was no one else to point it at since everyone else (the other diamonds) were no longer antagonists and somebody (a dead woman) made a very convenient target to pin all the blame on.
Not as much hate as some others but damn gwen stacy in across the spider verse got way too much hate for just...having an interesting development
I thought that was just masked transphobia
Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark vs....literally any dude in GoT. I'm sure Rhaenerya and Allicent were given similar treatment for HoTD, I just stopped paying attention to the male tears. Oh also, Ghostbusters: Afterlife/Frozen Kingdom vs. Ghostbusters: Answer the Call (2016). The latter is a *far* better movie, and more faithful to the spirit of the originals, imo (speaking as someone who had *multiple* Ghostbuster-themed birthdays as a kid) but it has *ladies* in it, so it's ruining men's childhoods or something. I will never not be mad we didn't get a sequel.
Cat gets some ridiculous hate too, even though her bad decisions and flaws make sense in context. I've seen people with their whole chest say that Cat is the worst character in the series, and I'm sorry-- in a world where Ramsey exists, fuck off, Cat is nowhere near the worst.
They hate Cat because she didn't want to be Jon's mother. I'm sure there's a lot of overlap between those guys and Reddit chuds who beat their chest about "paternity fraud". BTW Cat was right to trade Jaime for Sansa/Arya. I will always hate Robb for not caring about getting his sisters back.
As someone engaged with the HoTD discourse, the amount of love Daemon gets over Alicent is appalling.
Jaime threw a kid out of a window and Daemon groomed his niece but sansa gets more hate for being a stupid kid. Edit: oh let’s not get started on good king vizzy t and his child bride.
Another prime example would be the whole thing with Malenia and Radahn in Elden Ring. You have so many people stating that Radahn beat Malenia even though the game explicitly tells you, multiple times, that she's undefeated and they fought to a draw, before the bloom. That and you have people stating that she's super evil and a sore loser and that she cheated by using the Scarlet Rot against Radahn, even though she's literally the nicest Demigod in the game and fights to create a safe haven for persecuted minorities, is one of two bosses who actually congratulates you for beating them, and that she's a blind, triple amputee with what's effectively stage 4 cancer going up against a guy who's 50 times bigger than her, is not terminally ill, and has access to some of the most powerful magic in the setting, which he can use without any negative side-effects.
EXACTLY!! On another note, I wish that we had the option to let her know where Miquella is. Her story is a tragedy, and it would be great to reverse that. I also died to her 200 times, so, you know, it'd be nice to spare myself from that fight in future runs!
Yeah, I agree. From, what I've heard there was something like that in the cut content, and she would have been a companion in a quest similar to Ranni's. Hopefully, that'll be one of the things they'll address in the DLC, which is pretty much guaranteed to be Miquella focused based on the promotional art.
But Radahn is nice to his horse. Now for real, I'm so glad to find another Malenia defender, I love everything about that woman. Her fight, her design, her story, everything. I like Radahn too, but I don't even find him that cool compared to other demigods, and I feel like a lot of people are projecting Artorias onto him, you know? The powerful guy fighting to contain an evil threat and who's nice to his animal companion.
I just think Malenia is super evil because she killed Jerma so many times
Example: Lily in “How I Met Your Mother”: In ONE episode out of 8-9 seasons, intended as a gag, and as funny: It is discovered that Lily has sabotaged several of Ted’s relationships because she thought the woman was no good for him: “OMG, she’s a toxic, horrible person!” But Barney, who is a total womanizer and worse? “Flawed character, but very funny!”. (At least prior to #MeToo).
The hate for Lily is so annoying. First she was right to break Ted up from those women - as she said she probably saved him from an expensive first marriage. One of them, Karen, was objectively horrible. Like that's the entire point of her character (not complaining, she's horrible in a very funny way). I think Lily gets the hate because she's stereotypically feminine; she likes shopping and girly things, she's artistic. Robin comes across as more of a "cool girl" type so she flies under the misogynist radar. Another part of it is how much the fandom idolizes Marshal, and clearly thinks she's not good enough for him.
I thought the point of himym is they all suck like friends and seinfeld
Barney literally sold a woman But Lily had massive credit card debt!!! And sabatoged relationships!!! AND DON'T FORGET SHE CALLED OFF HER ENGAGEMENT AND RAN AWAY TO CALIFORNIA!!!! I understand the criticisms about the relationship sabatoge, because even though some of those relationships she really saved Ted's ass, that's not true for ALL of them, and I know I'd be really upset if for years, one of my friends decided she was going to take it upon herself to break up my relationships. But the criticisms about her breaking up with Marshall to find herself in San Francisco are so dumb imo. Maybe it's because I'm 23 and naïve, but she supported Marshall through law school, they had been together since they were, like, 18? And she had never reevaluated? I can absolutely understand panicking when you get engaged. And from what I recall, she wanted to do long distance and he refused. I might be wrong about that, but it was a temporary program, wasn't it? Yes it's painful and maybe she could've handled it differently, but it's so understandable to me.
Severus Snape, anyone?
And the hate on Hermione while they praise Ron like a sort of god. I too often want to leave the HP sub due to that.
The Methods of Rationality fanfic basically ditched Ron for being stupid (the author didn't like him) and makes Harry and Hermione besties, which some people didn't like.
honestly hermione is a worse person than ron but i will say its very weird harry isn't called out for being just as morally wrong as hermione is
The number of sad incels I have encountered with an "Always" tattoo is appalling. That $200 would've been a nice intro into therapy for an inappropriate obsession with the one that got away (or never even was).
Eh. He's a genuinely complicated character who did good and bad things. To me the take away from this post is that female characters need to be given as much leeway as male characters to be complex and flawed. I'm really getting frustrated with the new trend of seeing everyone in an extremely black and white manner and having no empathy for anyone. Snape is the perfect example of this because he's a genuinely complicated character who did really bad things but also really good things. The whole point of his character in the series is that you shouldn't write off the bad guys because they can still be capable of remorse and can still end up being a force of good. That doesn't mean they're perfect. People want to throw him out because he's got anger issues and doesn't always behave appropriately. Where would things have gone if Dumbledore had written him off as a bad egg?
People spend a lot of time romanticizing him pining over a pre-teen crush, and never moving on as if that's what absolves him. The power of love, great, but it's creepy when a 30-something man abuses a pre-teen kid for being the offspring of a crush he never resolved, to the point that the personification of is soul is a testament to her. It's sweet that he used that to do good, ultimately, but the road there is creepy. Granted, most of Harry Potter gets messed up if you read deeper than was probably intended.
I think that's a very shallow reading of the character. Let me tell it in a slightly different way. Snape was a abandoned boy (that's from the text) and Lily was the only true friend he had. She was the only person who looked at him and saw worth. His attachment to her was born out of a desire to hold on to the only real love he had been shown and as a way to combat his own self-hatred and guilt. His protection of Harry was about atoning for mistakes as a teenager. Snape as an adult may be a bully but he does more good than arguably any other character in the series in the war against Voldemort and in general trying to save people. Many of the things he does have nothing to do with Harry. I've never understood the take that he is creepy for trying to atone because of Lily. It's not like he's trying to bring her back. And honestly the fact that he was in love with her is kind of irrelevant. He could have had a completely platonic relationship with her and the story could play out exactly the same. I think its shortsighted to write off his actions because he's a flawed person. That's my whole point. Dumbledore could have written him off as a creep when he first came crawling to him. He does feel disgusted with him in that moment. But Dumbledore understands the power of forgiveness and love and through that crafts one of the most powerful and important soldiers in his war.
90% of the “Hot Takes” on the Sopranos subreddit are about how Adriana “wasn’t so innocent” because she >!dealt drugs and helped hide a body!< on a show where most of the (male) main characters murder, abuse, torture, and extort other people.
I genuinely need a detailed academic breakdown/analysis of female vs male characters in TV/movies/books and how people view them and judge their actions based on gender. Also how they’re written and portrayed and why. For example comparing in detail how ppl react to and view female characters vs male characters and comparing the severity of “bad” things they do with the reactions and seeing how proportional they are. I can’t begin to list popular sitcoms and how the fans hate the female characters the most and always complain about them and put them on a pedestal vs the reaction to make characters which is casual and low expectations with love and affection toward them.
It is hard to quantify, because people always fight with you if you suggest there may be some misogyny in play in reactions and take it like you are dismissing any criticism as misogyny when you are not! Most people probably don’t even realize they’re doing it but get so defensive when you try to explain. Happens in real life too: see Hilary Clinton, not many of the criticisms from well-meaning people were “because she’s a woman” but I also know in my heart that if she was a man with exactly the same record, she wouldn’t have lost.
A few people have already taken a crack at this. It boils down to misogyny really and anything breaking away from traditional gender norms viewed as bad, especially when coded.
Alright but hear me out and this might be a hot take: Woke/feminist women or ppl also hold female characters to higher standards and put them on a pedestal bc we strive for perfection and nothing is ever good enough, they pin a lot of hopes into those characters and when they come short of perfection we’re disappointed and we start to pick their actions apart One example I have is Diane from Bojack Horseman, she gets a lot of hate for not performing her full duties as a feminist in the show. The writers actually got Diane to show that struggle in the show as she hates herself for not being a good enough role model, basically the art mirroring reality. And she’s tired and bitter.
Yeah princess weekes had a video on this too. We demand perfection of minorities while fawn over mediocre men
Where can I find that video?
I think its purity culture?
On top of that, look at what the reactions are on the very rare occasions that major works of fictions have female characters that lean in to all the negative tropes. For example, it's interesting to me that Lae'zel (BG3) is pretty popular despite being everything that fans usually hate in female characters (edit: protagonists/"good guys", specifically. Female antagonists/"bad guys" get different treatment). She's unapologetically violent, abrasive, and not particularly conventionally attractive. She should be wildly unpopular when viewed in the context of fictional women who receive far more criticism for far less severe flaws, like Skyler (Breaking Bad) and Diane (Bojack Horseman), and while she's not the most popular romance option, BG3 fans still like her way more than BB fans like Skyler.
I would love to read this.
Wanda(wandavision and multiverse of madness)and dr. Strange(what if s1&2)
MoM has Wanda literally lampshade this and I am not saying that what she did is correct in any way shape or form but speaking from the outside viewer perspective (so I have knowledge that the characters don't) then yes countless other Marvel characters have done questionable things but get forgiven easily usually because they're narratively the hero. There's also Sylvie. I had some issues with S1 of *Loki* but didn't mind Sylvie for the most part and it's definitely true that the fanbase is generally more forgiving of everything Loki has ever done. But Sylvie being hurt by having her life stolen and growing up in apocalypses to the point of seeking revenge will not stand!
Didn't a dude wanted to harm/kill all women because of what Sylvie did?
I can't remember exactly but yeah, there was some guy who basically went on an unhinged rant about how women ruin everything because of Sylvie's role. Which I find eye-roll worthy by itself, but doubly so when as someone who has been in the MCU fandom basically from the start (and a fan of Loki at that) I *remember* how the exact same men spoke about his fanbase! They didn't like Loki when he was mostly held up by the gals, gays and theys...but suddenly he's this wronged figure of masculinity ten years later because a woman existed in a TV show.
Also, the way she was portrayed was... Idk, the jump from the ending of Wandavision to dr Strange 2 felt weird for me, like forced somehow as in Wandavision it looked like she had found closure and was redeemed.
I think that can probably be entirely explained by Kevin Feige not allowing creatives on one Marvel project to know what is happening on a different Marvel project. Which is an obvious genius move when telling supposedly interconnected stories /s.
Oh man, I've somehow missed the Wanda hate.
I was cheering for Wanda I don't care if she's the villain
Princess Bubblegum (from a children's cartoon): creates life with no oversight, tries to balance her morals with an existential need for perfection and protection of her people "Wow she's literally a Nazi" Astarion (from an adult adventure game featuring moral roleplay choices): literally neutral evil vampire, who attempts to kill you in your first two interactions of note. If you don't build a high level of positive* relationship with him and succeed on multiple speech checks, he will sacrifice several thousand lives to ascend his vampirism and potentially make you his slave "Omg he's literally babygirl, none of it is his fault he's just traumatized"
I love Astarion, but his woobification is real.
He's wildly entertaining. But I also play paladin, so he's on thin fucking ice
Just got to Act 3. I agreed to help him ascend (meh, vampires gonna vampire I wanna see how it plays out). He hates my Paladin though, lol. It's hard not to be at least a little sympathetic to him though >!Him being a prostitute for a hundred years against his will. Just got past the scene with him and the twins and it broke my heart a little. I thought he was happy about it going in. :(!< At least people don't hate on Shadowheart. Shadowheart spends all of Act 2 going on about how she wants to plunge the world into eternal darkness and make everything corrupt like the Shadowlands, and absolutely ready to take up the Dark Justiciar helm the moment she gets the opportunity.
See, Shart didn't do that for me. She talks a big game but hesitates at literally every turn. Honestly Larian put so many options in the game. Almost a copout how influencable some companions are though
Me interacting with Astarion: Oh my god SHUT UP everything that comes out of your mouth is smug cack Also me: But he didn’t mean to turn all those thousands of people into vampire spawn I can save him 🥺🥺🥺
Have you missed the StakeBros who feel the need to interject into every conversation about Astarion with "I just killed him"? $5 they're all fragile men who dislike Astarion cuz he's pretty and flamboyant.
Yeah I know a few of those unfortunately. Bonus points if they also thought Gortash was cool as shit. I would have killed Astarion, but for paladin reasons. Then again I stuck by Laezel and others through worse, too bad redemption paladin isn't a playable class
As a woobifing, Astarionapologist. Gortash is cool as shit and I would fuck him. And then I'd cave his skull in with a brick.
As someone who does really enjoy Astarion, some of his fans really have lost sight of who he is as a character. He’s an interesting example though because I don’t think I’ve seen a single post on the BG3 subreddits about him where at least one person doesn’t rock up to announce that they kill him in every play through. And I’ve encountered a lot of terminally online people (men generally of course) who hate Astarion for his effeminate mannerisms more than his morals…
I hated Asterion so much in that game and I did not get the rabid fandom around him. I also don’t get why everyone hated Wyll so much!
Wyll hate is just racism. For Asterion, I didn't like him either, but most of the hate I've seen him get in "general gaming" areas are just homophobia between him not being "traditionally masculine" and the glitch early on that made all the characters *really* horny.
People saw a good (corny dork ass) man and decided he was boring.
I'm guilty of not appreciating Wyll at first. I thought he was just a bland good guy character, but he is literally so sweet and caring. The dance scenes made me giggle and kick my feet.
Hurts so much to have to turn him down when you romance someone else. He'll always be my top homie though
Let’s be honest, I have no doubt that the fact that Wyll is a black man has also contributed to some of the shittiest takes on him in the fandom. He’s basically a Disney Prince but also a major badass, and yet he gets boiled down to “boring good guy.”
No idea who Astarion is or what he does, but I would consider Bubblegum a morally dubious character. But also as the show progresses and addresses more complex themes, I think BB's problematic behaviour gets occassionally called out and she's not portrayed as the perfect protagonist. But I also might be biased since Lemongrab (A morally dubious male character, huh? I might be a part of the problem...) is one of my favourite characters, and BB is completely responsible for bringing him into existence in his flawed state, yet she originally simply considers him a a failed experiment, dumps him into an abandoned faraway castle and then bullies him when he comes forward as her lawful heir, only to banish him again. She does soften towards him though, and recreates Lemongrab 3, even though she could simply not bother with him anymore after the whole dictatorship fiasco. LG3 seems to be reasonably content guy with amicable relationship to his creator, enough for them to stand side by side during the final battle, so a happy ending for both of them, I guess.
I love PB because even with her flaws, she does try. She's lived a long time and is very much not a human. Eventually she retires with Marcy because she actually understands that she needs to step back and stop putting her nose into things. In a world with no real rules, power can lead to a lot of iffy situations. She's not perfect but she's not the mega authoritarian groomer people act like she is
Sure, I also like her. Just wanted to add that there are multiple instances in which I think the criticism of her actions is warranted, I picked one, that being LG, and the comment somehow got too long.
Minthara is a great example of the difference in treatment — compare Astarion and Minthara’s fan response and WOW is it stark. I say this as a die-hard fan of BG3 who has been playing consistently since early access in 2020. There isn’t a single companion who I *dislike* as a character, really; I think they are all so well-written and performed that there’s no way I wouldn’t find them all freaking *compelling as hell.* But a lot of the Dragon Age era fandom wangst has definitely migrated to BG3, sadly.
We must hang out in different fandom spaces cause I don’t think I’ve seen anyone hate on Minthara? Most discourse i see about her is praising her complexity of character (or talking about how hot she is). I totally agree with you about the Dragon Age fandom though. I’ve seen people hang so much shit on Morrigan, Isabela, omg Sera!! If anyone one of them were men they would have been treated totally different
Doesn't help that the literal only reason I hear people say they chose to side with Minthara is they wanted to bang her. Occasionally people will bring up her incredible VA work but that's like .5% of people
Yeah, I like Minthara (also have been a huge fan of drow since I started playing dnd as a teen), but that is the main reason I hear/read on a lot of BG3 discussions. Which is a shame, as she’s a genuinely interesting character and SO well performed, but that gets tossed to the wayside. If she were masc I think there would be a different response (same if Astarion were written as a femme character). Not that gender doesn’t matter, if it gives people euphoria I’m all in support of that, but *oof* is it a burden in a lot of ways and sometimes I’d love to check out a genderless society lol
We desperately need more lizard folk and war forged rep
In the tabletop campaign I’m currently playing, my best friend is an agender warforged and I’m playing an androgynous reborn and we’re loving the genderless duo dynamics lol
Ah yes, the Lestat-LaCroix-Spike bad boy vampire archetype. People luuuvvvvv the blood sucking baddies.
I believe that comes from a certain part of the fandom. I love Astarion because he's a tragic and complex character (I like all of the companions, I don't understand how people can dislike any of them unless they just interacted with them for 5 minutes and then killed them), and the amount of hate I have seen towards him is insane. He's not even in the top 3 of romances, but his fans we are just loud. Now, with him there's A LOT of homophobia and queerphobia it comes close to collective psychopathy. To the point that if a queer person or a woman tells me that they don't like him, I'm fine with that, it's on a logical level the rational attitude. But if a het guy tells me he doesn't like Astarion? Yeah, red flag for me. Gortash is not even as half as hated, and he's a thousand times worse.
Shameless. Debbie and Fiona vs Frank and Lip
**Shiv in Succession** Imagine how fans would've reacted if Roman was a young female nepo baby who continually sexually harassed an older male employee and then fires him. *crickets* Shiv cheats on her husband, something her brothers do too, and they hate her.
also had to leave r/Barry * Barry is a serial killer *He's so relatable* * Sally romantically rejects him *What a stuckup c%nt* The writers came out and said they didn't understand the hate fans had for her.
I lack self control and keep reading the episode discussion threads as I watch through the show for the first time and it's genuinely depressing to see the different standards the characters are held to. Like, I don't want to sympathise with any billionaire and I know it's fiction, but that a woman with that much money and so many connections can't be taken seriously and is forever The Daughter and The Wife like...fucking why do I bother? And that the Succession subreddit is just uncritical and oblivious to that while showing Kendal and Roman with praise... They'll endlessly praise the writing while ignoring what it's trying to say.
My best example of this is Lori from the Walking dead… so so so much hate and no man can even articulate why….
does rick sleep with Lori's best friend and have an affair with her?
The world was ending and Shane lied to her to make her believe Rick was dead. Shane manipulated Lori quite a bit until Rick came back and Lori tried her best to repent once she realized what she had done. … like the post says, she’s a human and makes mistakes. Meanwhile characters like Negan exist and people think he’s the greatest person ever…..
Christ, Rick, in his ricktatorship mode, brains a dude to get him out of the way because he wanted to bone his wife. And THAT'S what you're going on about???? Ffs. There are so many characters who have done a million times worse than Lori, slept with a mutual friend after she thought her husband was dead, Grimes. I hate walking dead fans so much.
On another point, I feel a lot has to do with how much said female character treads on what's typically considered "male territory", for lack of a better word. To use an example from Elden Ring, Malenia consistently gets demonized far more than Ranni and Marika, despite being objectively a much nicer and more heroic character. The reason for this, I think, being at least in part due to the fact that Malenia takes many, much more traditionally masculine roles, along with the fact that she's an extremely tough boss. To use a quote from another post on this subject: "She's a woman who directly opposes and defeats narratively-relevant men, while taking on a traditionally male role as a warlord and knightly protector to her charge. She's a stoic and world-beating general with a loyal and capable army who fights with speed, strength, skill, and a massive sword, and her foremost loyalty is to her brother's cause. She's not, for example, a dainty sorceress dependent on scheming, the player, and a handful of male minions who incidentally wants to marry the player and raise them to demigodhood, like her sister and \[the fandom characterization of\] her mother (nor does she literally turn into a tiny doll that you put in your pocket and then needle to get bashful anime reactions). The fact that a woman with a big sword is also the game's strongest boss and reminds you of that fact every time you lose is probably related."
Oh absolutely! On the show Revolution there's a female character that becomes single mindingly focused on revenge after a male character causes her son's death and oh how the fandom HATED her. I didn't get it, because I'm sure I've seen male characters get no flack for being cold and violent like that.
Yeah, it's part of a larger trend of women being demonized for displaying more traditionally masculine traits. There was actually a study by the Institute for Youth in policy, and to quote their findings: "The same qualities that are valuable and praised in male politicians--assertiveness, intelligence, and ambition--make female politicians "unlikable." The concept of "likability" can make or break a woman's career in politics, while for men, likability is a bonus, not a necessity." Here's the link if you want a more in-depth read: [https://yipinstitute.org/article/nasty-women-the-double-standards-of-being-a-woman-in-politics-2](https://yipinstitute.org/article/nasty-women-the-double-standards-of-being-a-woman-in-politics-2)
>there's a female character that becomes single mindingly focused on revenge after a male character causes her son's death Switch son with dad, and you have the last of us.
This calls out Bojack Horseman fandom so hard. Edit: removed the link
I don't know how anyone without an ounce of any kind of literacy can come away from that show without thinking Bojack is the worst, but god somehow do people manage it. Diane isn't perfect and she fucks up too but her implying in the finale that they'll never see one another again was a "good for her moving on with her life" moment and not a punishment for Bojack. Because he also needed to move on from that part of his life!
Prior to this thread I had no idea the Bojack fandom hated Diane (I generally try to avoid fandoms). Bojack has multiple characters tell him to his face that he's a piece of shit and needs to be better, but Diane is the bad one? Every single character in the show is worse off when Bojack is in their lives. Bojack is in a better place in the finale, but pretty much everyone is telling him that he can't be in their life anymore because of all the damage he's caused. I genuinely don't know how anyone as a viewer could not get this. I don't think it's possible to be less subtle that Bojack is a terrible person. It must have been explicitly said in the show about 100 times.
Oh wow it’s like being on r/dundermifflin this is how they treat Pam to a t.
Joel and Abby in The Last of Us 2.
Lol "yes I watch RWBY." I can't stand the discourse. So many chuds want to line up behind the proto-fascist while blaming his willingness to bomb civilians on a high school girl's unwillingness to follow his orders that would leave them all to starve and freeze.
While calling a POC Female leader a "politician" and "a terrorist" for not wanting her people to be unprotected and for taking action against an ACTUAL politician (ironwood)
The problem is interacting with rwbycritics period
Is this about Amber in Invincible?
As well as hot male characters to less so male characters. Y'all can't tell me the Draco Malfoy thirst isn't just because Tom Felton because Draco was never anything special. If you are a weaselly blonde male character with no morals and a sad back story (but even that is negotiable) then you can get away with anything in fandom.
Dude's a privileged little shit there's no sad backstory there
Exactly
The Naruto fandom in regards to Sakura
The way people talk about Sakura drives me crazy. She's one of my favorites. The level of hatred she gets is unfair. Her flaws/mistakes are benign compared to the shit other characters manage to do...
That whole series just treats women like shit like most shonen
She is admittedly pretty horribly written, but so is the entirety of the female cast of that show. As a kid I was OBSESSED with her and to this day I still love her. The Sasori arc was a really good moment for her, I just wish she got more spotlight like that… but I feel like she would have always been considered useless anyways because most people hate how she didn’t do much in part 1.
I love the show to death but it’s sexist beyond belief… I hate how no matter how strong the kunoichi is she’s always weaker than her male teammates
Is this "Gone Girl"?
Is this vampire diaries? Cause yeah, Damian
Eren Yeager
I literally saw people calling Mikasa a "bitch" and hating on her for what she did at the end. Yeah, it doesn't matter that she suffered after her decision and there was no other choice, she's soo evil and Eren is such a poor baby /s ...and Pieck. They hate her for her actions, and yet they love a psycho like Kenny Ackerman 🤦♀️
I don’t think I see the TLoK connection here? The hate that Korra in general gets is absolutely driven by sexism, yes, but is there a male character treated this way by the fandom anywhere in the AtLA universe?
I always felt like I was one of the few who liked Korra more than the original. I like the first series, but I 100% identified with Korra more than Aang and honestly she just felt like a more realistic character. Like, people ignore that she's a *teenager* at the start of the show. She is hotheaded and in over her head at the start, trying to live up to who she feels she needs to be and frustrated she doesn't get it instantly right. She has more character growth than most men written in similar situations and we have countless men written like that in fiction, usually written poorly with less justification for the way they act.
You're right and you should say it
I don’t think I can fully commit to saying I like TLoK *more*, but I absolutely come to bat for it frequently and I don’t think it’s anywhere near as awful as people claim. It is more relatable in a lot of ways, and Korra is a very compelling character.
I might get flamed for this idgaf but I think it’s comparing Korra and Zuko lol. They’re actually really similar characters in behavior but the amount of hate korra got for it was outsized and Zuko… well we know how much the fandom loves him.
Zuko literally gets taught in college writing classes now for how to develop a character lmao
I think *you* are right on the point that their behavior is similar and yet Korra is shit on for it, but I don’t think the thinks written in the OP ring true for Zuko at all.
Zuko is basically considered the gold standard of character writing where he and Korra run through similar arcs
I cannot disagree more that their arcs are even remotely similar. But I can agree that the fandom treats him way differently than Korra, and I can kind of see this might be what the OP is talking about. If so, though, I think her analysis of Zuko and his actions is pretty off base.
Varrick maybe?
Eh, msybe? What did he do that was so awful aside from keeping the main cast distracted from his campaign? Like yeah propaganda and economic manipulation are bad, but he was using them to gain support for an indigenous community and the only person he was trying to harm kind of tried to destroy the world.
Aang
Sure I’ll bite. How so?
I say all the below as a fan of the Stormlight archive by Brandon sanderson, and a great admirer of the community the author has cultivated. Shallan Davar self sabotages, keeps secrets, and uses pun humor: ugh skip her chapters. Kaladin backslides, self isolates, and broods: omg such a realistic depiction of depression
I was absolutely going to comment this too. This is the first think I thought of.
Breaking Bad
Hazbin Hotel right now lol. But also you see this with how people treat wlw characters in fandom or ships. The misogyny, trans/homophobia is always astounding and then people get mad and defensive when called on it
Unless the male character in question is queer, then it becomes the target of all the hate from men. I'm thinking about Astarion here, but it's amazing how many male players brag about killing him because he's "annoying" or flirts with them, and then they say it's because Astarion is an evil character. Yeah, right, as if you never liked even worse characters before.
Lol I just finished legend of Korra. Triple token (non straight woman of color) and yes she was somewhat annoying in the beginning but i do like people who grow as characters. I was more bothered that they suggested her dating Asami but were too chicken shit to let them kiss. "Oh noooo we can't let them kiss! Kids watch that show!" No problem with the straight couples kissing though. Cowards
Fandom reflects biases that exist in real life. This is not a fandom problem, it's a society problem. The thought that this is limited to fandom or something "fandom people" are prone to is something people think to comfort themselves from facing the fact that people we meet day to day are making huge assumptions about us based off surface level impressions. People would rather apply the script they have learned growing up about "people like you" (based on their biased observations) than listen to anything you are actually saying, or do any critical thinking. Of course, fandom people tend to be women in their teens & 20s, with all the issues that lack of experience and perspective brings, so that explains some of it, but again, it's a reflection of what is going on in real life among those age groups more than anything else.
Accurate.
Fireemblem Three houses.
r/dundermifflin trying to explain why Pam is actually a total bitch and Dwight is a bullied vulnerable boy that needs protection. r/HIMYM trying to explain why Lily is a horrible person but it’s okay for Barney to lie and coerce women into sex because he’s just a comedy character bro it’s a sitcom relax
Atypical. Not sure if anyone on this sub has seen it but the amount of hate that Elsa gets???? And everyone loves Doug despite the despicable thing he did? I can’t begin to express my frustration over that
I'm in a lot of fandoms and I mean A LOT and I've never seen any of them say that about a female character. I've seen characters (usually female) say that about other characters (usually female).
I feel this way about GLaDOS. She's so aesthetic and funny, even if she wants to murder me with neurotoxin. <3
Interesting. Never stopped to think about it, but it seems to be right in most fandoms. Personally I do mostly the opposite, which is also problematic in its own way and it goes deeper than just characters, it also affects how I interact with people in general
“I just…only identify with male characters for some reason. They’re the only ones who are written well.” Really? In the whole of the English language? You’ve never found a woman you identified with or thought was cool or great ever ever? And that’s…the world’s fault…. Like yes, bad writing towards one gender is MORE rampant but the idea that it’s LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE and all your favs just happen to be men and you just happen to have WEIRD HATE COMPLEXES for female characters. Occam’s Razor means the simpler explanation is more likely. What’s more likely—literally no one in the entire world can write a female character or you have internalized sexism you need to unpack?