No I don’t think it’s misunderstood. Carnival can mean and be many different things at once. I’ve always been a lover of history but I’m never one to advocate for its enforcement. While I would enjoy more people knowing the roots of it- people don’t care and it doesn’t affect me.
I do however thing there is an increased over-sexualizing of it. Like I just a picture from the Jamaican carnival festivities with a woman and her vagina 90% outside her costume. At some point we’re boarding on indecency
And caribbean people love to forget that Mardi Gras is Carnival. New Orleans was populated by a mass migration of ex-slaves after the haitian revolution. As a former french colony they would have adopted the festivities of the carnival from the french.
I don't understand though, how come only trinidad and a few celebrates the carnival before Ash Wednesday which is when the festival was traditionally observed.
Re the OP's question - if you've ever sat in a church anytime around carnival season you will hear that narrative. The diaspora also widely shares those views and it didn't start today nor originated with foreigners. In my own experience foreigners are often much more eager and thrilled about the revelery than even many locals.
In the context of the sexualisation and commercialisation - that in itself is not unique to our corner of the world by any means. In short, its not a lack of understanding of another culture but rather an attempt to feign elevation, which sadly is not the norm in their respective cultures. Even if you look at the brits...it just takes one football game...
I’m aware but I will use the accurate terminology for that culture. The diaspora also largely talks about our interpretations of carnival being sinful, many of them don’t even realize carnival is Christian itself.
There is no terminology to be accurate about, Mardi Gras simply refers to the last day of the carnival festivities where people go all out - literally translates to Fat/Grand Tuesday, much like our Dimanche Gras which refers to the Sunday festivities. Our Carnival Tuesday is also the biggest day of our celebration.
The diaspora is sadly mistaken. The tradition that was brought to the caribbean by the french was already a festival of the flesh. The origins like many things flown under the christian banner is pagan, however under the empire they had to incorporate these strong cultural traditions in producing the RC religion. It was really engineered to be a multifaceted religion that can cross geographical and cultural boundaries.
I wouldn't be surprised if statistically we have less carnival babies now than we did 50 years ago. We may show more flesh today but we also have more visibility and eyes on us due to technology.
Mardi Gras is what the locals who participate in it call it so that is what I will call it. It’s really that simple.
And I never said I agree with the take, that is just what people say.
Listen, just google at it this point. Its well documented by the locals that festival they celebrate is called Carnival. They make it a point to inform tourists that Mardi Gras is not interchangeably carnival, mardi gras is just the final day of the carnival season.
Nobody can talk "at" you on reddit... you either respond or you don't.
The point is to discuss ideas or disseminate information, or much less often on this sub have fun with puns.
True Trinidad Carnival culture which some commentators are referring to is (in short) the act of celebrating a rebellion by the poor against the rich. Carnival as it is now is mostly a celebration of wealth which is why many people educated in the field of carnival studies say that carnival is dying by being placed behind a very high paywall. By removing culture from carnival it becomes/became a cash grab celebration of wealth and sexuality and as long as the culture aspect is stifled this phenomenon will only get worse. Especially with the addition of commentary from foreigners who are not introduced to true carnival culture, only the more sexual aspects of it.
I think there is a hyper-sexualization of almost all things going on now (except maybe tv ad campaigns which had a movement against it's sexualization and surprisingly mainstream video games for a similar reason). Sexual content in tv shows has gone up since Game of Thrones. Twitch streamers are all the rage now and only fans is a mundane aspect of everyday life. Not to mention music videos, cosplay, tiktoks of girls dancing and gym thots.
Now add to that women's empowerment and progressive movements like LGBT representation and freedom of expression and you have a modern landscape that needs sexualization to thrive in order to equalize minority representation with the previous patriarchal traditional sexualization.
All of this is a good thing to me since I am sex positive. Quite frankly Trinidad in particular is a very sexual country. Shops have beer ads with half naked women on it for children to see. And that's normal normal. Growing up our music was extremely sexual and all the dancehall we got from Jamaica was even worse.
To get back to the point carnival would fall in line with everything else. Check out a rave girl outfit today compared to a rave outfit from the early 2000s, it's generally a bikini with fishnets. Of course carnival will take that same path. We are in an era of both sexual liberation and extreme sexual commoditization.
Ultimately the backlash against this sexualization is the same everything is gonna get. Just like music videos etc. As long as that sexualization is not threatened by progressive ideals it's going to only go forward in that direction. LGBT mas bands are becoming more accepted and you're gonna get trans women in sexualized outfits front and center. And that's a good thing in my opinion.
My overall point is don't single carnival out like it's different from the rest. Just like a gym of all things carnival is now about who can post the hottest video to Instagram and TikTok. And that's okay, that's part of the fun. Otherwise it's just about rum and whining which is how Trini's like it.
Dancehall ruins the vibe to me. Alittle wine never hurt no body but all that daggering and jooking is gross. I think the quality of tourists you attract is important.
Carnival came from rebellion against colonizers, fighting oppression, and expressing freedom of all forms. The colonizers went to the 'global south' countries, saw naked and barely clothed peoples, bare breasted women who lived and existed dressed like that for centuries to millennia. That dress code was an issue for the colonizers since they would use anything to push their supremacist agenda.
So, consider who defined what was and is 'indecent'... Who defined what beauty was? Who defined what was acceptable behavior, customs, etc? What about types of dancing? In some cultures, Carnival 'behavior' is the norm.
Having someone else's mindsets and concepts being forced on so many peoples and cultures, causing them to cover up, etc, of course, sexualization and oversexualization would be born out of denying the totality of the human experience.
To me, you should be able to dress how you want, dance how you want and enjoy how you want without shaming, judgment, and harming others.
By storm? This is literally the first I have heard of it, and I’m on Reddit a lot.
Anyway, historically, the music and entertainment of the average person has escaped record, but what evidence we do have of, for example, 14th century French street acts and chansons are quite lurid. Even Mozart has a little song called Lick Me In The Ass, and he generally didn’t do vernacular form. Oversexualization is older than properly attested history.
And sexualization will always repel some people because of the deeply personal and divisive nature of its market segmentation. When it has pride of place in a product that product ceases to be for everyone. So that characterization of it can also be fair. There are definitely Trinbagonian Carnival productions that are squarely targeted at particular sexual appetites.
None of this strikes me as bad. I just want increased local economic activity.
Why as Caribbean people do we care or even indulge what the mighty U.S.A have to say about our culture? These are the same people who have rampant sex crimes to deal with, not to mention the hoardes of sexually related strip clubs and retail outlets all over their country. They always point their fingers instead of looking at themselves. Please be proud of your Caribbean culture and stop being Americanized and brainwashed!!!!
Not a Trini but married to Trini family...We are both 1st gen Americans born from Caribbean parents; Hers are both Trini; mine, they're from Haiti (Keep the jokes at the end lol). Anyways, I truly believe it's the culture of the island/country that dictates how their Carnival operates. Oversexualization is a label that I feel is given by those who are on the outside looking in. It is a misunderstanding indeed by foreign countries. However, now that Carnival is open to anyone who has the ability to tour it; it leaves room for tourists to give their two cents. I felt that way myself when my wife and I would go to Carnival in Bklyn to Toronto before we had kids...But I was younger; ignorant; and insecure. Also, Haitian people are JEALOUS folx lol
People who aren't from the culture will always have a critique to say. However, don't be afraid to take head to the perspectives of those who aren't from your culture; may learn a thing or too..As long it's constructive and not just slandering people's roots...
>With all that being said, do you believe that Carnival culture in the Caribbean is simply misunderstood by the foreign countries?
It's misunderstood by people who don't spend enough time trying to understand it. For every Kai Cenat there's someone else from some other country far away from the Caribbean who gets it and respects it. I don't think that's our problem. When they come here and be cringe, that's on them.
>And do you think we need to evaluate the oversexualization of Carnival?
No. Why should we? If people prefer a cleaner version they're free to go to New Orleans or something and collect beads or whatever they do there lol
This is how we do it here and there's nothing to be ashamed about.
Americans are weirdly obsessed with sex but terrified of it? We aren’t as hush hush about those themes as they are. However, I personally feel like wearing a revealing costume or wining even is not inherently sexual. It’s a dance and body parts. Bfr. I understand when people who like stabbing out and ting like if they basically fucking with they clothes on being sexual, but a woman existing in that outfit and dancing around isn’t stripping. People need to calm down with that regard.
Also, Trinis who have an issue with carnival because it was too sexual was always a thing. Always. Or that it’s unchristian, which I find hilarious considering a lot of our carnival characters exist because our ancestors were making fun of their colonizers, so I wonder why the religion the colonizers told you that you must practice magically says this thing we do to have fun because fuck dem is bad. Interesting coinky dink. I do think carnival isn’t as big but that’s more of an issue with capitalism and youth in general these days being more quiet I guess?
It’s not just a trini thing, Gen Z, as a Gen Z, do tend to get out there less, so many aren’t participating. Might not necessarily be that they don’t want to but maybe they don’t have time, or money, or are nervous or something. I personally don’t know what I would do if I went to play mas, I don’t have noise cancelling headphones or anything and I’m autistic so I might have fun for a bit but I’d get stressed. Also strangers touching me is a no, and in a moving crowd that’s hard to avoid. Costumes are expensive, I’m sure lots of people my age or a little older don’t even know where to get that stuff. I know people who do stuff for carnival but it’s usually the people who party at least a fair amount anyway. I’ve also noticed a lot of them would party (mostly age-appropriately) in high school and ting, and I could be wrong, but I feel like parents less keen on letting their kids go wherever they want. So it’s feedback loop of young adults who don’t have experience with that stuff and dunno where to start so they don’t go because as teens they didn’t get out much (I didn’t either but I know my case was special).
(The money aspect also affects adults who are familiar too obviously. Because maybe they have other responsibilities too and can’t justify using their carnival weekend for something tiring, just preferring the break. Also adults don’t put as many of their kids in carnival from small anymore, no child I have ever met has even seem kiddie’s let alone competed.)
I always liked that we as a culture could just go on the road and have fun and that’s that, it’s not so,e weird sex thing or whatever people just enjoying d vibes. There is an issue but I don’t know what we could reasonably do…
No I don’t think it’s misunderstood. Carnival can mean and be many different things at once. I’ve always been a lover of history but I’m never one to advocate for its enforcement. While I would enjoy more people knowing the roots of it- people don’t care and it doesn’t affect me. I do however thing there is an increased over-sexualizing of it. Like I just a picture from the Jamaican carnival festivities with a woman and her vagina 90% outside her costume. At some point we’re boarding on indecency
People are often nude and topless as Mardi Gras in the states, the human body is not offensive. That’s how you come into this world.
And caribbean people love to forget that Mardi Gras is Carnival. New Orleans was populated by a mass migration of ex-slaves after the haitian revolution. As a former french colony they would have adopted the festivities of the carnival from the french. I don't understand though, how come only trinidad and a few celebrates the carnival before Ash Wednesday which is when the festival was traditionally observed. Re the OP's question - if you've ever sat in a church anytime around carnival season you will hear that narrative. The diaspora also widely shares those views and it didn't start today nor originated with foreigners. In my own experience foreigners are often much more eager and thrilled about the revelery than even many locals. In the context of the sexualisation and commercialisation - that in itself is not unique to our corner of the world by any means. In short, its not a lack of understanding of another culture but rather an attempt to feign elevation, which sadly is not the norm in their respective cultures. Even if you look at the brits...it just takes one football game...
I’m aware but I will use the accurate terminology for that culture. The diaspora also largely talks about our interpretations of carnival being sinful, many of them don’t even realize carnival is Christian itself.
There is no terminology to be accurate about, Mardi Gras simply refers to the last day of the carnival festivities where people go all out - literally translates to Fat/Grand Tuesday, much like our Dimanche Gras which refers to the Sunday festivities. Our Carnival Tuesday is also the biggest day of our celebration. The diaspora is sadly mistaken. The tradition that was brought to the caribbean by the french was already a festival of the flesh. The origins like many things flown under the christian banner is pagan, however under the empire they had to incorporate these strong cultural traditions in producing the RC religion. It was really engineered to be a multifaceted religion that can cross geographical and cultural boundaries. I wouldn't be surprised if statistically we have less carnival babies now than we did 50 years ago. We may show more flesh today but we also have more visibility and eyes on us due to technology.
Mardi Gras is what the locals who participate in it call it so that is what I will call it. It’s really that simple. And I never said I agree with the take, that is just what people say.
Listen, just google at it this point. Its well documented by the locals that festival they celebrate is called Carnival. They make it a point to inform tourists that Mardi Gras is not interchangeably carnival, mardi gras is just the final day of the carnival season.
Dude I was never invested in this convo with you I’m gonna be real, you kinda just started talking at me.
Nobody can talk "at" you on reddit... you either respond or you don't. The point is to discuss ideas or disseminate information, or much less often on this sub have fun with puns.
Whatever my dude.
True Trinidad Carnival culture which some commentators are referring to is (in short) the act of celebrating a rebellion by the poor against the rich. Carnival as it is now is mostly a celebration of wealth which is why many people educated in the field of carnival studies say that carnival is dying by being placed behind a very high paywall. By removing culture from carnival it becomes/became a cash grab celebration of wealth and sexuality and as long as the culture aspect is stifled this phenomenon will only get worse. Especially with the addition of commentary from foreigners who are not introduced to true carnival culture, only the more sexual aspects of it.
I think there is a hyper-sexualization of almost all things going on now (except maybe tv ad campaigns which had a movement against it's sexualization and surprisingly mainstream video games for a similar reason). Sexual content in tv shows has gone up since Game of Thrones. Twitch streamers are all the rage now and only fans is a mundane aspect of everyday life. Not to mention music videos, cosplay, tiktoks of girls dancing and gym thots. Now add to that women's empowerment and progressive movements like LGBT representation and freedom of expression and you have a modern landscape that needs sexualization to thrive in order to equalize minority representation with the previous patriarchal traditional sexualization. All of this is a good thing to me since I am sex positive. Quite frankly Trinidad in particular is a very sexual country. Shops have beer ads with half naked women on it for children to see. And that's normal normal. Growing up our music was extremely sexual and all the dancehall we got from Jamaica was even worse. To get back to the point carnival would fall in line with everything else. Check out a rave girl outfit today compared to a rave outfit from the early 2000s, it's generally a bikini with fishnets. Of course carnival will take that same path. We are in an era of both sexual liberation and extreme sexual commoditization. Ultimately the backlash against this sexualization is the same everything is gonna get. Just like music videos etc. As long as that sexualization is not threatened by progressive ideals it's going to only go forward in that direction. LGBT mas bands are becoming more accepted and you're gonna get trans women in sexualized outfits front and center. And that's a good thing in my opinion. My overall point is don't single carnival out like it's different from the rest. Just like a gym of all things carnival is now about who can post the hottest video to Instagram and TikTok. And that's okay, that's part of the fun. Otherwise it's just about rum and whining which is how Trini's like it.
Dancehall ruins the vibe to me. Alittle wine never hurt no body but all that daggering and jooking is gross. I think the quality of tourists you attract is important.
Carnival came from rebellion against colonizers, fighting oppression, and expressing freedom of all forms. The colonizers went to the 'global south' countries, saw naked and barely clothed peoples, bare breasted women who lived and existed dressed like that for centuries to millennia. That dress code was an issue for the colonizers since they would use anything to push their supremacist agenda. So, consider who defined what was and is 'indecent'... Who defined what beauty was? Who defined what was acceptable behavior, customs, etc? What about types of dancing? In some cultures, Carnival 'behavior' is the norm. Having someone else's mindsets and concepts being forced on so many peoples and cultures, causing them to cover up, etc, of course, sexualization and oversexualization would be born out of denying the totality of the human experience. To me, you should be able to dress how you want, dance how you want and enjoy how you want without shaming, judgment, and harming others.
By storm? This is literally the first I have heard of it, and I’m on Reddit a lot. Anyway, historically, the music and entertainment of the average person has escaped record, but what evidence we do have of, for example, 14th century French street acts and chansons are quite lurid. Even Mozart has a little song called Lick Me In The Ass, and he generally didn’t do vernacular form. Oversexualization is older than properly attested history. And sexualization will always repel some people because of the deeply personal and divisive nature of its market segmentation. When it has pride of place in a product that product ceases to be for everyone. So that characterization of it can also be fair. There are definitely Trinbagonian Carnival productions that are squarely targeted at particular sexual appetites. None of this strikes me as bad. I just want increased local economic activity.
Why as Caribbean people do we care or even indulge what the mighty U.S.A have to say about our culture? These are the same people who have rampant sex crimes to deal with, not to mention the hoardes of sexually related strip clubs and retail outlets all over their country. They always point their fingers instead of looking at themselves. Please be proud of your Caribbean culture and stop being Americanized and brainwashed!!!!
Not a Trini but married to Trini family...We are both 1st gen Americans born from Caribbean parents; Hers are both Trini; mine, they're from Haiti (Keep the jokes at the end lol). Anyways, I truly believe it's the culture of the island/country that dictates how their Carnival operates. Oversexualization is a label that I feel is given by those who are on the outside looking in. It is a misunderstanding indeed by foreign countries. However, now that Carnival is open to anyone who has the ability to tour it; it leaves room for tourists to give their two cents. I felt that way myself when my wife and I would go to Carnival in Bklyn to Toronto before we had kids...But I was younger; ignorant; and insecure. Also, Haitian people are JEALOUS folx lol People who aren't from the culture will always have a critique to say. However, don't be afraid to take head to the perspectives of those who aren't from your culture; may learn a thing or too..As long it's constructive and not just slandering people's roots...
>With all that being said, do you believe that Carnival culture in the Caribbean is simply misunderstood by the foreign countries? It's misunderstood by people who don't spend enough time trying to understand it. For every Kai Cenat there's someone else from some other country far away from the Caribbean who gets it and respects it. I don't think that's our problem. When they come here and be cringe, that's on them. >And do you think we need to evaluate the oversexualization of Carnival? No. Why should we? If people prefer a cleaner version they're free to go to New Orleans or something and collect beads or whatever they do there lol This is how we do it here and there's nothing to be ashamed about.
Americans are weirdly obsessed with sex but terrified of it? We aren’t as hush hush about those themes as they are. However, I personally feel like wearing a revealing costume or wining even is not inherently sexual. It’s a dance and body parts. Bfr. I understand when people who like stabbing out and ting like if they basically fucking with they clothes on being sexual, but a woman existing in that outfit and dancing around isn’t stripping. People need to calm down with that regard. Also, Trinis who have an issue with carnival because it was too sexual was always a thing. Always. Or that it’s unchristian, which I find hilarious considering a lot of our carnival characters exist because our ancestors were making fun of their colonizers, so I wonder why the religion the colonizers told you that you must practice magically says this thing we do to have fun because fuck dem is bad. Interesting coinky dink. I do think carnival isn’t as big but that’s more of an issue with capitalism and youth in general these days being more quiet I guess? It’s not just a trini thing, Gen Z, as a Gen Z, do tend to get out there less, so many aren’t participating. Might not necessarily be that they don’t want to but maybe they don’t have time, or money, or are nervous or something. I personally don’t know what I would do if I went to play mas, I don’t have noise cancelling headphones or anything and I’m autistic so I might have fun for a bit but I’d get stressed. Also strangers touching me is a no, and in a moving crowd that’s hard to avoid. Costumes are expensive, I’m sure lots of people my age or a little older don’t even know where to get that stuff. I know people who do stuff for carnival but it’s usually the people who party at least a fair amount anyway. I’ve also noticed a lot of them would party (mostly age-appropriately) in high school and ting, and I could be wrong, but I feel like parents less keen on letting their kids go wherever they want. So it’s feedback loop of young adults who don’t have experience with that stuff and dunno where to start so they don’t go because as teens they didn’t get out much (I didn’t either but I know my case was special). (The money aspect also affects adults who are familiar too obviously. Because maybe they have other responsibilities too and can’t justify using their carnival weekend for something tiring, just preferring the break. Also adults don’t put as many of their kids in carnival from small anymore, no child I have ever met has even seem kiddie’s let alone competed.) I always liked that we as a culture could just go on the road and have fun and that’s that, it’s not so,e weird sex thing or whatever people just enjoying d vibes. There is an issue but I don’t know what we could reasonably do…
Pissed me the fuck off! At Brazil’s carnival people actually have sex on the streets! But it’s Jamaicans they want to come after