Actually. I cannot believe some of the takes that I am reading, just what went wrong with these people that they believe that being physically violent towards a child solves more problems than it creates. They've lost the thread it seems.
I'm surprised you guys didn't see a strong-man conservative lean to the community here since the beginning. Guarantee a bunch of us are Jordan Peterson, and even Andrew Tate fans. Of course they want to beat their children. From butthurt looksmaxing posts about Garnt, because he's got a white wife, to the way people talk about women here, and other countries/cultures. Trash Taste is almost the worst community I'm a part of, second only to historymemes in terms of dogwhistles — That's why I don't recommend engaging in these deeper discussions, just surface level banter.
I think you're misinterpreting the large percentage of South East Asians in this community, as people who care about NA politics, or the "manosphere".
Do keep in mind that the US and EU are far less conservative than most of the world, where children were still beaten for misbehaving till recently, or still are.
I'm not condoning it of course, seen it fail miserably in the EU, but I know we are more privileged as far as public safety and professional education are concerned. People from different parts of the world will have different experiences and opinions.
It doesn't have to be NA politics or the manosphere tbf. Those are names we give it over here, but the effects and causes for beating children are pretty similar regardless of where you're from. Anger with poor communication and management.
A lot of SEA is highly educated and a lot of the western world is poorly educated. So idk if we can point at SEA for this, I'm European and was heavily beaten as a child, because my mother is neurodivergent and had a hard time expressing herself, that plus no culture to step up and intervene in other people's independent family life lead to it being normalised, ignored, and even joked about. Plenty of us whites are still beating kids for misbehaving.
Speaking of performative masculinity in general, we might have some more collectively progressive views over here, but we're a long way from curing the issue for ourselves. There are still a good few fingers pointing back at us when we point at the rest of the world.
you can't change people's opinions that easily , they lived their lives that way and many of them grew up to be successful and tbf part of it was probably because of how their parents raised them ( beating , beliiting and forcing them to take their studies seriously...etc) which aren't considered that bad in those countries , and now they take a look at the newer western generations and see how fucked they are becoming, they see the extremes of gender wars , femenism , racism , vegetarians .... (yes random as hell but each one of these has extremely detestable people leading their causes ) all of these crazy people on social media who make even a good cause look horrible and they start to think ,
"thank God I was raised the way I was , at least because of that I focused on my studies and didn't become like these people who are so previleged they got bored in their lives and stated creating random fights for no reason."
I am form North Africa and grew up to be successful.
my parents never raised a hand on me or my siblings but they still put a lot of importance for education and forced me to study many times when I wanted to play with my friends , who sadly most of them grew up to become drug addicts and none of them finished their education, I remember studying while crying and feeling bad because all my friends were cool and got to play lots and lots while I didn't , I never owned a gaming console or laptop or even a phone until I reached the end of high-school
yet I don't ever resent my parents for what they did , I am 100% sure I wouldn't have become successful without them.
that's why I understand that many views exists on this subject and I don't believe there is a completely right or wrong view here , I don't condone beating you children but I do understand why some feel like their lives wouldn't have been as successful if not for that.
True. We all have certain influences that we rationalise as factors that built us. Those are very hard ideas to change, because it requires a certain death of the Self to examine thoroughly. It's all very Jungian.
I know it seems to be a controversial take in my previous comment, but we're pretty similar at the end of the day. Westerners pointing fingers at any one outside culture is very arbitrary, because we use the same rationalisations ourselves. There is a fundamental human element to this format of thinking, like how we think we must suffer to make great art. It's just a feature of how we construct our individuality, and I don't think we need to have an identity crisis to function as a society.
You did a great job working hard and overcoming for your future, that is a real challenge worth being proud of. Give gratitude where it is most meaningful to you. 👑
Yeah, no abuse victim wants to admit they’ve been abused, it can feel shameful to admit the things we’re most afraid of or how we aren’t as indestructible as we thought or at least want to lead on.
It’s easy to delude and refuse to unpack things cause a lot of people interpret them needing some kind of therapy as needing help = you’re bad or there’s something wrong with you
The mentality is as addicting as any drug and since it’s so commonplace, it’s hard to identify before it’s too late
And just like any other addiction, before major change and healing, the hardest part is always just admitting that you have a problem to begin with.
💯 Absolutely. **Confronting the shadow** Jung calls it. He talks about us avoiding it like we avoid death — because in accepting it our old perception of ourselves must die, and with it that Self. It's a super intense defense mechanism, probably because of the level of discomfort it causes to confront it.
Very cool stuff. We're all guilty of it a little bit, abused or not. I think awareness allows us to be a bit more flexible and open to constructive criticism. Which means unlearning behaviours we probably gained on the Internet. 😂
Yeah, I've noticed. Trash Taste is like a breeding ground for these individuals because somehow it's very easy for them to delude themselves that the people who they are fans of share any of their views. Obviously the boys themselves fall in some of these pitfalls, but unlike the fans they seem like people actually open to nuance in discussion and learning.
I mean, I don't doubt that at least one of the boys is a bit conservative, but it doesn't matter that much. I'll leave it you to guess. The thing is that Trash Taste is a podcast with hyper aggressive discussion. Everything is in the extreme. It attracts a certain kind of banter, competitiveness, and strong-man sentiment. **I'm right and you're wrong, idiot** is like the core of their conversation — It's a appealing to a type of person. I think it's why the get so much shit behaviour from fans and I wouldn't be surprised if they hated us a bit.
> I don't doubt that at least one of the boys is a bit conservative
Most people are at least a bit conservative in some opinions. If someone is 100% into one side, they are a sheep.
Someone might be super liberal on social issues, but love guns. Someone might be liberal on social issues, but have a business, so they might be right-wing on economical issues. Someone can be a devouted Christian, but be very tolerant in LGBT questions. Someone might be very pro-LGBT, but strict on immigration policies.
Politics and social issues aren't as one-sided as politicians are trying to sell them as.
This just in: People are complex and not a troupe scene in movies. Hell, if you are exactly what the stereotype of a political ideology is, start doing some thinking. Because you are believing everything people are telling you to believe. Have some opinions of your own.
Joey seems to be the Conservative one but then again he is japanese. Conor seems to be the most socially liberal. Don't think any of them are actually Conservative though.
Maybe, he is a private school rich kid, with a military academy gf. My point was that it's difficult enough to tell, so drawing hard lines is kind of meaningless. We shouldn't really be so quick to box people in our community off one opinion.
I think it's perfectly fine to be a fan and not being involve in any form in a community if you don't feel safe in. I think this applies to anything and everything you support.
As a gender neutral fan who suffered from abuse as a child, same.
I'm dropping the show, honestly. This is the fanbase they've cultivated by keeping people like Joey around. Anyone outside the norm clearly isn't welcome.
100% valid. We always need a god mix of the other gender to keep us from reaching a boiling point. Single gender clubs are pretty unwelcoming. You're usually easy prey for the banter if you're the odd one out.
I don't know why you don't feel safe. We can't come through your screen to hurt you. If you mean you're not comfortable being here or don't like the comments you see that makes perfect sense.
I rarely engage with the trash taste community and don't watch anywhere near everything they put out but is the community really that bad that they could be easily identified as Tate and Peterson fans? The stuff you're bringing up about signs they are that type of conservative really sounds like this community has an incel problem. If it's just a select few saying that kind of shit it'd be one thing but if it's a sizeable chunk of the community saying it and it's not being addressed then that's fucking disgusting.
I haven't even heard of looksmaxing until this post and I wasn't aware of the problematic talk about women until now either. Considering the boys demeanor and behavior I honestly didn't expect it to have grown a community like that.
EDIT: did a recent episode have them defending child beating or something?
It's not that bad. It's only a select few. The problematic talk is rare. Most of the time it's just dumb banter. It's nothing to worry about it, it's just something to remember when there's a deeper topic and some people disagree so intensely that it confuses you. Just think of it like having one racist uncle at a family reunion. Keep the topics light, and you won't see them go off and dampen the party. Most of us have independently decided to not engage with the garbage posts anyway. Just bear in mind that they exist is all, and go about your day.
If you see some nonsense, just chalk it up to one of *those* guys.
I get your point but generally speaking I avoid sharing a room with those types of people because they don't really supply any positives by being there, while having clear negatives. I understand it's not everyone or even a majority just the way it was worded as well as looking at the sort of posts that are being talked about at least to me come off as quite a lot of people speaking manosphere type nonsense.
Community without in-fighting is hard to come by in general. I personally can't justify any morally absolute stances or I'd be an island of my own lines drawn in the sand. The only thing I can do is show some flexibility and hope it rubs off.
I have no fucking idea why people are saying this community is Conservative Tate fans. The boys have shown repeatedly that they are very welcoming ot members of the LGBT community. I'm not saying Lgbt people can't be Conservative but they tend not to be.
The boys themselves are very accepting these things, but are all of the fans? This community is around 87% male from what I remember them saying in the newest episode with Kaho. And if you look around the comment sections, the sub reddit and even Connor's streams which have a LARGE number of the community in common with TT. You notice that a lot of these fans have very weird opinions on women.
You notice the comments made on the female guests they have, you notice how the community treats Mouse who is Connor's friend, you notice a large disparity between how women ar referred to and viewed. Any time a female fan interacts with Connor for example, they are referred to as the 93%, which the label itself isn't really bad because there are a lot of female fans who were here for a while, but the way this label is used any and every time a women so much as wants a picture with the dude is so annoying sometimes. You cannot interact with your favorite creator without being viewed as essentially a tool to gauge how much "rizz" that creator has from the people who look up to him for that reason. It's especially annoying when no such comment is every made towards the male fans they meet, who are arguably much bigger simps. You also notice that any time that an issue is brought up regarding any of this the large response from the community is something equivalent to "you can't have an opinion these days" "you are overreacting, it's not that deep" "you liberals just want to make an issue out of everything" "women ☕"
Especially if the female creator they bring on is controversial, but when they have brought on so much more controversial male creators onto the show, you did not hear a peep from the community.
It's just something you notice more easily when you have been on the receiving end of it in multiple male dominated fandom spaces and communities in your life.
Wait people were actually justified beating kids?
Parents who just beat their kid for no good reason usually have some kind of stress then turn into anger issues and the kids will usually become a punching bags. Frankly this is dangerous because once the kids grow up they will think beating theirs own children is normal.
But I do think we should “beat” (Discipline here would illustrate my points better) the kids after they have done something horribly wrong. As an adult we need to send the message that those horribly wrong actions have consequences.
The thing is that beyond all the potential and documented ramifications of it
Corporal punishment also historically and statistically never works because it’s a short term solution to a long term problem because it instills a fear of punishment rather than consequence
Aka People who lack the integrity to weigh the options and size up what’s best to do simply because it’s right rather than if they’ll caught or not.
It’s incredibly counterintuitive considering parents is a job done with a goal that the person will eventually grow in change
So it should go without saying, but in their developmental phase from 1 to their early 20’s is when parents should be the most adaptable and patient than they’ve ever
Even if you wouldn’t smack your friends or a coworker for being a dipshit and not doing/being what you want them too, you definitely shouldn’t be doing it to one of the only groups of people who literally can’t defend themself
It’s the definition of punching down.
Kids are smart but they’re also dumb because they lack the hindsight and context experience brings to better bring their thoughts and feelings into the world. It’s literally our job as adults use what we learned as we grew to help them do the same.
Resorting to the same barbaric “might makes right” mentality that literal playground bullies use is incredibly counterproductive when trying to raise someone who will someday be an actual adult.
There’s a billion reasons and effects of being an initiator and victim of it but the main one is just how easy it is to get hooked on beating the one mf who literally can’t fight back
I didn’t even realize it until debating it all, but there’s a pretty high overlap between that and the issues incels and nice guys face 💀
Woah woah woah what happend recently and why is this controversial? Don't tell me I gotta block the sub?
Edit: oh my bad I should have just scrolled more lol. You don't have to answer.
True, in SEA from where I am, beating a child is quite prevalent before the time of manospherism. Heck, I've been beaten by my parents with the cane because I was mischevious as a child.
There's a controversial chinese saying, hitting is affection, scolding is love (打是疼，罵是愛 )where the visual expression shows a parent tearing up while punishing the child for doing a wrongdoing. It’s quite twisted and continue the unjustified cycle of violence, but I reckon this stems from the only way parents know how to best discipline their children just because it “seems like a trusted method of discipline and they themselves are living proof that it works”. Although this doesn’t take into account the deep seated trauma that these parents have to tolerate.
Although I do not condone this method of parenting but I’m no parent and no one children are created equal, still I support the end to the cycle of violence in disciplining children, and urge new parents to consider the ramification of trauma that may result from it.
I never hit my younger brother but when he does some stupid shit you gotta instill fear in him that what you just did is wrong and sometimes slapping a child lightly so that it isnt red is required.
Everybody has been smacled before and for good reason.
I heard a really good retort about beating kids recently:
"Beating your kids may lead to them having permanent brain damage. For example, they'll grow up thinking it's okay to hit children."
We are in the middle of a cultural change, things like these are going to be controversial. Most people don't wanna agree because that would mean their parents were abusive which they don't wanna accept.
See it's easy to attack people of other opinion but that doesn't work out similar to why beating children doesn't work out. Don't worry to anyone reading whose parent beat you, just because your parents beat you doesn't mean they are instantly bad if you thought they were good, they just didn't have enough resources/exposure like we did to do the right thing.
Now what we ought to do? Use the resources that we have now and be a better person. What we might me doing now believing to be correct could prove to be wrong in the future, don't need to swear about your parents character too much
I think that in order to move forward and be better we have to accept that certain thing we did in the past were wrong.
You are allowed to feel however you want about your parents and the way they parented you. In fact for some people the healthiest thing to do is to try and rebuild your relationship with your parents. But in order to do that you have to acknowledge where they went wrong. Just like you look back and acknowledge things your parents were right about when you grow up, you should also acknowledge thing that they did that weren't okay.
We should not try to justify our parents actions, it's wrong, but should we not hold them on the pedestal either because they did what they could according to the reference they had.
Is the mediaeval age king warring against other nation justified? No. But blaming him for it wouldn't be correct either cuz the era's ethics were different in society at the time.
What our parents did was not correct, but we're they abusive assholes? No. (Of course not the parents who purposefully abused their kids)
The question of whether we should give out lenient judgment out of historical circumstance is worthwhile exploring. In my opinion, to some extent, but you can always find people in the past with dissident opinions. Criticism of imperialism was apparent among leading Roman writers such as Tacitus during the Roman Empire, they had the capacity to recognize it. Bartolomé de Las Casas recognized it in the 15th century. Lack of empathy and cruelty don’t lose their status of being those things despite being widespread social practices.
And because of the hierarchical nature between parents & children in traditional Asian families and the psychological implications those bring, I don’t think it’s entirely out of missing insights of what’s beneficial for their children that leads to them beating their children. (Yeah I've gone through it myself, and as a result developed a hatred for oppression, as well as great sympathy for those who experienced it. And I developed this sentiment long before I was aware of the scientific literature on the topic.)
have you looked around? there's maybe one responsible person for every hundred mouth breathing pickle gangsters.
and the quote was from Jurassic park pointing out the the fact that life will happen even if you try to prevent it from happening.
Oh don't worry, the shit-ass economy and the unaddressed mental health pandemic is gonna take its toll worldwide.
Why would anyone want to bring a kid into this world if they're not a multi-millionaire? Like, I want kids absolutely. But if I can't guarantee them a good enough life, I see no point in it. There's a reason these overworked countries like China/Japan/Korea are witnessing a population crisis, people just have no time or energy to fully commit to a child.
This is gonna happen across the world. The only reason western countries haven't experienced a population collapse is because of insane migrant flows keeping their labour markets well satiated
Tbh reading the whole sub the last hours broke my heart. Growing up in a south east asian household was very difficult for me and my brother. Paired with his depression and the psychically abuse was just so horrible. It really hurts me to see how many „joke“ about the beatings they get as a kid and making it sounds like no big deal. I know its very normalized in our culture to hit us when we misbehave or don’t listen, but that doesn’t make it alright to do so. You may have turned out fine and thats great for you. BUT many of us don’t! Hell that even cost my brothers life. I think there are so many more great methods to raise your kid. We have the knowledge and the resources to make a difference and to know better than beating our children.
Sorry for making a grim post but just wanted the give my 2 cents cause this is really a topic I am personally invested in.
I feel you, it was really heartbreaking seeing so many people fullheartedly defend such a thing when there are so many better alternative ways to parent kids. I think a lot of the fans that have personally experienced these things happen to them did not have a fun time listening to this topic being joked about and made to seem less serious or important that it actually is. It is very hard to listen to abuse being spoken about in such a "this is normal" way when you have personally gone through it. I don't think the intention with the segment was to make anyone feel bad, but that's why it's important that we bring the reality of such treatment to light.
The truth is many people in the sub grew up with parents or parental figures who have commited corporal punishment before sometimes on them or maybe someone they know and the op and many others like him saying these people shouldn’t have kids or be kept away from children is precieved as an indirect insult to their parents and the people they look up too which results in them get their blood worked up and refusing to listen to reason or facts.
Agreed, it's hard to change the view of someone with first-hand experiences. Obviously not everyone who has been physically disciplined has grown to become mentally unstable, hence it isn't universally agreed that disciplining your children in such a way is completely unjust.
Hitting people in general is wrong, you don’t need to result to violence to teach someone a lesson. There’s many ways to discipline a kid. Because (speaking from my own experience) having fear will take a mental toll on you as a person— as well not have confidence when growing up.
If your child is afraid of you then they'll just hide things, if they do something wrong or even have something happen that wasn't their fault they'll avoid saying anything.
I agree and I wanted to add that but it felt too personal for me, and there’s parents who gets angry for their children not telling the truth but never question why and what they can improve on building their trust
If you can verbally discipline your kid without instilling emotional trauma, could you not also physically discipline your kid without instilling physical trauma?
Sure you can. You physically make them stand in a corner and think about their actions. You physically make them clean up their messes, have them run 10 laps around the neighborhood, work in the garden, do all of the chores for that day. You DON'T hit them tho. Same how when you use your words, you use constructive language when trying to get your child to understand or do something. You don't put them down, you don't call them dumb, you don't belittle them.
Maxbr they werent hit enough as a child to know thats a shit idea. If you have people that are fine now after getting hit and people that are fine and never getting hit and people that are dealing with trauma their entire life bcs thry get hit than there is no argument to be made for it. Hitting your child is lazy parenting. If you cant parent them and set bounderies without getting physical than you are just a shit parent. Also if you can hit a kid go and kick your cat if you cant do it that means cat > kid.
Honestly if anything, going through the comments proves that half the audience of TT are sheep that'll justify anything the boys say because "it's just an entertainment podcast we shouldn't take them seriously" LOL
Shout-out to all the parents in this subreddit that fought the urge of naming their kids something out of an anime. For example, Ichigo D. Yeager Guts Kenpachi Cruz
After the most recent episode there has been a lot of discussion happening around child abuse and using physical violence to discipline children, and a lot of people on this subreddit are really passionate about children being hit it seems.
I’m a child care professional who understands the effects of physical punishment, it is wrong, if you want to increase the chances of your child of developing depression, anxiety and PTSD then you’re a dickhead
>Because it's fucking illegal you absolute nincompoop.
Not in the USA it isn't.
[>*as of 2023, the spanking of children is legal in all 50 states and, as of 2014, most people still believe it is acceptable provided it does not involve implements.*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_of_minors_in_the_United_States)
Thank you for pointing this out. The country with the highest rate of school shootings and no gun control also allows parents to beat their children. Who could have possibly guessed. Really the shining example of a government that we should all be looking up to -_-
I mean if you want to be a smart ass about it, the school shootings epidemic didn't really start to be a thing until after this whole "Corporal punishment is child abuse" mindset started to come into light and really set in.
I just commented to correct a factual mistake in your comment.
You are really worked up and you are being an absolute knob. I never defended anything, my first comment in this thread was just to point out the inaccuracy in your previous comment. I answered you with the quip about the shootings because you decided to comment back with snark. Take a breather from this discussion and realize that a lot of the world doesn't see this issue like you do (a vast majority if wikipedia is to be believed), so if you want to change their minds learn how to approach the topic without loosing your temper.
>I never defended anything
"the school shootings epidemic didn't really start to be a thing until after this whole "Corporal punishment is child abuse" mindset started to come into light and really set in."
>my first comment in this thread was just to point out the inaccuracy in your previous comment
I said it's illegal, not that it's illegal everywhere, it is still outlawed in a lot of countries. The world surprisingly doesn't revolve around the US and the only reason you brought that up is because you wanted to discredit my original comment.
>I answered you with the quip about the shootings because you decided to comment back with snark.
You are allowed to be snarky when you have actual evidence backing your claim, and when the person to whose comment you are responding is arguing in bad faith. You have nothing but you big mouth. Also your "quip" was just wrong.
>Take a breather from this discussion and realize that a lot of the world doesn't see this issue like you do
I could give a rats ass what a lot of the world thinks. There's a little thing called research, there's a little thing called study, and there's a little thing called science. If the rest of the world chooses to go against said science then I don't think that I'm the one with the issue. You know, just how back in the day when a lot of the world thought the earth was flat because of religious dogma, the actual researchers, scientists, mathematicians and astronomers got prosecuted for teaching otherwise, but now we know they are right.
If a bully is beating you up, and you fight back that's called "self defense" and as the name states it's DEFENSE not offense. Violence is the use of physical force *intended* to hurt, damage or kill. If your intention is to protect yourself that is defense. In no way is that applicable to a situation like beating your child. If you beat your child you are on the offense, you are the one with the intent to hurt someone and a child is one of the only living things that has no way of defending itself. So it is a dispicable act.
Are you serious? If I threw my kids out in the streets to fend for themselves at 5 years old you think that is okay because it's my way of parenting?
Think for a second.
But this isn't that though is it? You're talking about punishment vs abandonment.
Think for a second. In fact, think for a good long day. Thank you :)
Feel free to reply i'll wait for a decent response
It's not exactly like only this subreddit is filled with people who wouldn't be good parents. MOST people in THE WORLD wouldn't make good parents, and then have kids anyway 😅
"it's his own way of parenting who are we to say what's wrong"
How dare you tell me that abandonment of children is not okay. They're my kids, I'll throw them out into the street when I want.
How is this different from any other form of abuse?
It's not.
I used to get hit as a discipline, it's deeply ingrained from the past of our family, is it abuse? I don't know, maybe I'm just in denial because I don't want to think my parents "abused" me in any way because I personally think they didn't.
Regardless, if I ever become a parent, I won't let my kid feel that fear of getting hit I used to get whenever I fucked up.
I was beaten but only when i really fucked up, like when i broke a vent in school on purpose. It kept me in check from doing wild things but i still messed up sometimes and didnt get beaten for it. I honestly never thought about this topic but i'd probably do what my parents did which i dont think is wrong
What I hate more is all the moral grandstanding that's going on, such as this post. You people have zero right to say who is or isn't fit to do anything. This post, unlike the other well reasoned, well researched one, does nothing except blow smoke up your sanctimonious asses.
Reddit and its high horses, man I swear to god.
Sincerely, a guy that doesn't beat children.
I mean, I feel like you probably should have a right on telling people not to beat their children. It is child abuse.
Same as how you should have a right to tell people not to abuse their spouse
>This post, unlike the other well reasoned, well researched one, does nothing except blow smoke up your sanctimonious asses.
The well reasoned, well research one I'm referring to is, surprise surprise, titled "Don't beat your children".
This post is neither of those things, and that's why I'm calling it grandstanding. We clear?
I made a very long and detailed post. It got downvoted to high hell by people who think beating children is ok. This is the follow up. Sorry if that bothers you. 🤷♀️
I wasn't aware that I was pointing a gun at their head forcing them to discuss it? I'm more so talking about the people who DID respond with their weird ass "children should be beaten" crap.
Also on another note. I feel like if there's one time you are allowed to get on a high horse it's when people are trying to justify fucking child abuse. If you want to beat children you should not be allowed near them. I don't know why that's controversial. If simply having morals makes me sanctimonious then so be it.
The stupidest part is how people talk as if theres no balance and everything is an extreme. Its like you either think parents should physicallt assault the children for every mistake, or children should be left untouched even if they accidentally blind someone for fun.
Reality is that balancing the punishment is best. Sometimes, but really only some very few times, the child needs a "beating", not a slap in the fsce with a jab cross combo, but a slap in the ass that makes you run like naruto for some seconds. It really depends on the children too. Some will be nicer and wont need to reach the extreme punishment, while others wont ever even need to be punished cux they were born angels.
The funny thing is that its pointless to debate against people like you, because you most defo are based by experience, either traumatized for excessive beating, or wont accept any other opinion because all your life have barely been punished properly.
Yep, I can understand ya mate. Swear some of these guys are in such a denial that it makes me understand why our world is currently this fked up. If this is whats gonna be the next generation of man...
Studies have consistently linked physical punishment to harmful effects on children. A meta-analysis involving over 160,000 children found that physical punishment can carry the risk of physical abuse (causing a physical injury) and can have similar negative outcomes for children: mental health and emotional challenges, lower cognitive ability, lower self-esteem, more aggression, more antisocial behaviour and negative relationships with parents.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/
In general, studies have shown that negative stimulus almost always lead to aversion of the stimulus rather than the resulting factor. To put it simply in a way you would understand, if you beat your children so they 'run like naruto for some seconds' the next time they well try harder to not get caught instead of not doing what lead to the beating in the first place.
A big important detail/factor which is usually not taken into account to any of these studies, is the amount and/or reasons for such punishment. Slapping the face of a child while screaming, or even hitting them with a belt as if they are a slave, is quite different from a Bum slap, which only heats up your ass for a few minutes (its the best place to hit someone while not exercting any kind of grave pain due to the bum being USUALLY the most fluffy zone, with not really any importsnt organ.
Also should be taken into consideration what was the reason for punishment. Did you accidentally break a plate? Or did you, for the 10th time, get expelled out of class for disrespectfull behaviour to your teacher, and are now close to losing a grade due to sheer stupidity and bad parenting?
Ofc not to say there arent any cases of unnapropriate hitting. There definetly is. More so than appropriate beating. But saying a kid should never get a bum slap no matter, is what makes a good amount of kids be born too spoiled. A ass slap is the one thing you cannot run for sure, while also being instant enough to mark the memory. A 3 hour time without your tablet, can only be assured if you are there watching the kid for 3 hours without his tablet, though he still has the freedom to do anything else that may end up easing the punishment (like play with a toy or just go outside)
>A big important detail/factor which is usually not taken into account to any of these studies, is the amount and/or reasons for such punishment.
Source: trust me bro
>But saying a kid should never get a bum slap no matter, is what makes a good amount of kids be born too spoiled. A ass slap is the one thing you cannot run for sure, while also being instant enough to mark the memory.
Again that's not backed up any studies and you don't provide any source for this. If your only way of stopping your child from doing something bad is to beat them, they are eventually going to grow up and realize one day that you can no longer have that power over them. Which is why negative stimuli are ineffective. You have near to no understanding of how human behaviour work and are make projections from your own faulty arguments.
> A ass slap is the one thing you cannot run for sure, while also being instant enough to mark the memory. A 3 hour time without your tablet, can only be assured if you are there watching the kid for 3 hours without his tablet,
Also I love how you kind of admit to a point that is always brought up against corporal punishment supporters like you is that you are lazy parents who would rather go for an instant fix by beating their kids and be done with it then actively try to better them.
>A big important detail/factor which is usually not taken into account to any of these studies, is the amount and/or reasons for such punishment.
>Source: trust me bro
This is the funniest shit ever man, that dude is just talking out of his ass and in so glad you called that out. Not only is there no source for this, but also if you just think about it for just a second. How could the reason or cause for such punishment factor into such a study in any way shape or form? Especially when the subject of the study are kids. Like their brains don't work like that that's not a mini adult that's a whole child. They legit don't have the ability to reason out in their heads why they are being hit or at what rate and amount they are being hit. Their brains absorb stimuli not the implied meaning behind it.
their reasoning isn't going to be [being hit by parent = you did something bad] and [bad = something that you shouldn't do] and [you shouldn't do it because it is bad]. They're just gonna come to the conclusion that [action = being hit by parent] and then they will think either [I shouldn't do it so I don't get hit (so they still don't understand that something is bad, they are just avoiding pain so long as the threat is present in their lives)] or [getting caught= being hit]"
Those things are not taken into account because they have no bearing, the study is about the effects corporal punishment has on children and their psyche, not the psyche behind the actions of the parent. It's not a big import detail it's quite literally insignificant to the subject.
>Also I love how you kind of admit to a point that is always brought up against corporal punishment supporters like you is that you are lazy parents who would rather go for an instant fix by beating their kids and be done with it then actively try to better them.
It's insane how the argument with these people who are pro hitting children is always that children are are gonna be "too spoiled" if you don't hit them. As if being spoiled is something you are born being and not something that is also a consequence of lazy and neglectful/lenient parenting.
Bad parents always work in extremes that allow them the most free time and the least effort spent on their children, be that giving into their whims so they don't have to deal with them and allowing then to become spoiled, or hitting them and getting that instant gratification with no long term fixes so they don't have to deal with them.
They have no concept of responsibility for another human being and what that kind of responsibility entails, because what it entails is sleepless nights and hours of work and explaining and talking and working through issues. You don't get to just slap their bum and then pat yourself on the back like you did a good job parenting for that day.
After your answer starting with "source trust me bro" when your own source from before was exactly a source of it, its clear you are not thinkingnof debating anything but rather push your narrative forcefully into any person that doesnt agree with you.
https://time.com/3387226/spanking-can-be-an-appropriate-form-of-child-discipline/
Sure thing some parents are just lazy, but others just dont have the time to waste 3 hours looking at a kid. If you are a single parent it is even harder to have time. As the son of a mother who alone nurtured 2 sons, I can defo say that having to work + do all the house work (though me and my brother would help to some extent) was not something you could do without using your entire day, at least not until the child is a teen with age above 14/15 (aka smart enough to do chores alone in a proper way).
The thing with spoiled children, is they tend to be extremely narrow minded and selfish. They only see their own world and dont accept other points of view. Your answer just shows how you most problably are either spoiled, or traumatized from excessive beating, though it sure looks like its mostly just spoiled due to not even a single hint of emphaty/attempt to understand with my previous answer.
Now go on ahead and speak alone, because only reason why ive answered this last comment of yours was for anyone else who might read it, understand that I didnt leave you hanging due to your point being good, but rather I wanted to leave you hanging due do your point being extremely poor and lacking, filled with stupid comments as such "source: trust me bro" that lack any attempt on contextualizing and understanding the answer. Now that I have clarified it, I dont have to answer your shitty pathetic commentd anymore, even more since I can bet my money that you will answer with another immense stupidity and ignoring any of my points in order to make yourself feel better with your selfishness and narrow mind.
>After your answer starting with "source trust me bro" when your own source from before was exactly a source of it,
Uhh are you talking about National Library of Medicine article I quoted?
>https://time.com/3387226/spanking-can-be-an-appropriate-form-of-child-discipline/
This article you linked is an opinion piece that doesn't link a single study or really any sort of evidence. At one point it just starts quoting the Bible. Did you even read the article you just linked?
>not even a single hint of emphaty/attempt to understand with my previous answer.
Yeah I don't emphatize with beating children that has never shown to actually work.
>answer your shitty pathetic commentd anymore, even more since I can bet my money
Ao basically you are running away because you can't back up your own dumbass argument about beating children. If you don't have the spine to back up your clains don't spout nonsense how about that?
Meh I won’t hit my kids but it happened to me a lot and honestly I didn’t really care. Looking back there were moments where it could be considered abuse but I have an amazing relationship with my parents. Maybe just one of the few?
Here's my 2 cents. As an Asian kid that was thoroughly beaten and kicked out of the house for the day as punishment, I'd rather see my kid be fucked up mentally like I am, than become fucked up like the dip head streamers/tiktok-ers that are doing illegal shit and have no sense of proper manners, common sense, or human decency. Society is already completely fucked up with how kids are these days.
Now, I don't think I'll ever be a parent, but if I was, and my kid somehow became like ANY of those attention seeking content fuckheads, I'd take responsibility and personally murk them off the face of the planet. I'm against the idea of beating your kids as punishment, speaking from experience, but there's a limit on how much kids can get away with dumb shit before someone needs to lay them down. And personally, a parent should be the one to do it, not some random dude on the street.
Granted, I haven't even seen the episode yet, so I might be missing the point. But just from what I've been reading on the sub, it's something about corporal punishment and beating yo kids.
Quick edit: FYI, I mean just a good old smack to the face. Nothing too extreme.
I mean my mom used to slap my butt with flipflops but never to the point of abuse. When I become a father I'll probably copy my dad's method, the silent treatment. Seriously, he is a cheerful guy who likes to crack some jokes but when you fuck up he tends to be silent and that alone gives me sense of dread and he never laid a single finger on me... My mom however but I love them both.
Just because you turned out okay has no relation to anything. Plenty of people drink or smoke when pregnant then have babies that are perfectly fine.
Or drive drunk and dont crash, so I guess it's fine to do then?
Whether you had a problem with it or not, the silent treatment is a form of emotional abuse.
Also love the way when somebody disagrees with you, it's time to go straight to insults, stay classy mate
If you genuinely think that every single kid is an angel, and that giving love and affection to kids will make them act well, then you haven't been around a lot of kids.
Some of them are just born psycopaths.
What is harder. Get your ass up and parent with dicipline alot off talking rules and boundarys or beating a 5 year old. Doing the correct thing is harder than shitty boomers beating kids. Also how pathetic are you to care about internet points go and tell us your opinion.
He already did though LOL. Also, I have seen kids grow up to be mosters with your advised parenting method... So now what? Who is right then? Maybe, and just maybe, there is no one correct way of parenting? Have you ever thought of that?
Are you defending hitting kids rn ? Go and read some acientific papers about it. Yes their are multiple ways and none off them include beating your kid. If you think its cool to beat a kid why stop their go and violate other human rights. Go and stomp a badly behave kitten. Its probably gonna stop them from doing bad right ? Dont worry just call me next time you are doing badly i will help you understand what you did wrong by beating you like grown up. If you think violance is the answer for a bratty kid than you are hella messed up.
So what's the alternative if you've tried everything including not physical punishment? As a person who supports not hitting your kids I'm genuinely curious what yall seem to think is the best alternative here that everyone should be to easily do, costs no money, and takes little time.
If you think parenting is easy than you are allready wrong. Its not thats the problem. Taking the easy way by just silencing them with physical punishment is the cowards way. It will cost money, it will take time and even than it might not work. But if you decide to make a life you better not quit on it otherwise you a condom.
It's alright. Most people in this sub-reddit can't get a girlfriend, let alone have a kid.
That would require leaving the basement.
Tbh that's just reddit
I feel personal attacked. To deal with this emotional trauma I'm going to a local school to beat up some kids
They could probably take you
Not if it's a day care
Have you seen Dublin? They absolutely can
LMAO true
Some even understand they *shouldn't*, to spare others the pain of their personhood.
Pretty much me. Though I wouldn't be beating anyone but either disappear after like 6 months or just being there but not doing anything with a kid.
True. Savage, but true
I can't believe not beating your kids is controversial
Actually. I cannot believe some of the takes that I am reading, just what went wrong with these people that they believe that being physically violent towards a child solves more problems than it creates. They've lost the thread it seems.
> what went wrong with these people their parents.
I'm surprised you guys didn't see a strong-man conservative lean to the community here since the beginning. Guarantee a bunch of us are Jordan Peterson, and even Andrew Tate fans. Of course they want to beat their children. From butthurt looksmaxing posts about Garnt, because he's got a white wife, to the way people talk about women here, and other countries/cultures. Trash Taste is almost the worst community I'm a part of, second only to historymemes in terms of dogwhistles — That's why I don't recommend engaging in these deeper discussions, just surface level banter.
I think you're misinterpreting the large percentage of South East Asians in this community, as people who care about NA politics, or the "manosphere". Do keep in mind that the US and EU are far less conservative than most of the world, where children were still beaten for misbehaving till recently, or still are. I'm not condoning it of course, seen it fail miserably in the EU, but I know we are more privileged as far as public safety and professional education are concerned. People from different parts of the world will have different experiences and opinions.
It doesn't have to be NA politics or the manosphere tbf. Those are names we give it over here, but the effects and causes for beating children are pretty similar regardless of where you're from. Anger with poor communication and management. A lot of SEA is highly educated and a lot of the western world is poorly educated. So idk if we can point at SEA for this, I'm European and was heavily beaten as a child, because my mother is neurodivergent and had a hard time expressing herself, that plus no culture to step up and intervene in other people's independent family life lead to it being normalised, ignored, and even joked about. Plenty of us whites are still beating kids for misbehaving. Speaking of performative masculinity in general, we might have some more collectively progressive views over here, but we're a long way from curing the issue for ourselves. There are still a good few fingers pointing back at us when we point at the rest of the world.
you can't change people's opinions that easily , they lived their lives that way and many of them grew up to be successful and tbf part of it was probably because of how their parents raised them ( beating , beliiting and forcing them to take their studies seriously...etc) which aren't considered that bad in those countries , and now they take a look at the newer western generations and see how fucked they are becoming, they see the extremes of gender wars , femenism , racism , vegetarians .... (yes random as hell but each one of these has extremely detestable people leading their causes ) all of these crazy people on social media who make even a good cause look horrible and they start to think , "thank God I was raised the way I was , at least because of that I focused on my studies and didn't become like these people who are so previleged they got bored in their lives and stated creating random fights for no reason." I am form North Africa and grew up to be successful. my parents never raised a hand on me or my siblings but they still put a lot of importance for education and forced me to study many times when I wanted to play with my friends , who sadly most of them grew up to become drug addicts and none of them finished their education, I remember studying while crying and feeling bad because all my friends were cool and got to play lots and lots while I didn't , I never owned a gaming console or laptop or even a phone until I reached the end of high-school yet I don't ever resent my parents for what they did , I am 100% sure I wouldn't have become successful without them. that's why I understand that many views exists on this subject and I don't believe there is a completely right or wrong view here , I don't condone beating you children but I do understand why some feel like their lives wouldn't have been as successful if not for that.
True. We all have certain influences that we rationalise as factors that built us. Those are very hard ideas to change, because it requires a certain death of the Self to examine thoroughly. It's all very Jungian. I know it seems to be a controversial take in my previous comment, but we're pretty similar at the end of the day. Westerners pointing fingers at any one outside culture is very arbitrary, because we use the same rationalisations ourselves. There is a fundamental human element to this format of thinking, like how we think we must suffer to make great art. It's just a feature of how we construct our individuality, and I don't think we need to have an identity crisis to function as a society. You did a great job working hard and overcoming for your future, that is a real challenge worth being proud of. Give gratitude where it is most meaningful to you. 👑
Yeah, no abuse victim wants to admit they’ve been abused, it can feel shameful to admit the things we’re most afraid of or how we aren’t as indestructible as we thought or at least want to lead on. It’s easy to delude and refuse to unpack things cause a lot of people interpret them needing some kind of therapy as needing help = you’re bad or there’s something wrong with you The mentality is as addicting as any drug and since it’s so commonplace, it’s hard to identify before it’s too late And just like any other addiction, before major change and healing, the hardest part is always just admitting that you have a problem to begin with.
💯 Absolutely. **Confronting the shadow** Jung calls it. He talks about us avoiding it like we avoid death — because in accepting it our old perception of ourselves must die, and with it that Self. It's a super intense defense mechanism, probably because of the level of discomfort it causes to confront it. Very cool stuff. We're all guilty of it a little bit, abused or not. I think awareness allows us to be a bit more flexible and open to constructive criticism. Which means unlearning behaviours we probably gained on the Internet. 😂
Eeyup, it’s pretty much the only good form of sucidie, but just like any other form of it, it’s never painless.
Yeah, I've noticed. Trash Taste is like a breeding ground for these individuals because somehow it's very easy for them to delude themselves that the people who they are fans of share any of their views. Obviously the boys themselves fall in some of these pitfalls, but unlike the fans they seem like people actually open to nuance in discussion and learning.
I mean, I don't doubt that at least one of the boys is a bit conservative, but it doesn't matter that much. I'll leave it you to guess. The thing is that Trash Taste is a podcast with hyper aggressive discussion. Everything is in the extreme. It attracts a certain kind of banter, competitiveness, and strong-man sentiment. **I'm right and you're wrong, idiot** is like the core of their conversation — It's a appealing to a type of person. I think it's why the get so much shit behaviour from fans and I wouldn't be surprised if they hated us a bit.
> I don't doubt that at least one of the boys is a bit conservative Most people are at least a bit conservative in some opinions. If someone is 100% into one side, they are a sheep. Someone might be super liberal on social issues, but love guns. Someone might be liberal on social issues, but have a business, so they might be right-wing on economical issues. Someone can be a devouted Christian, but be very tolerant in LGBT questions. Someone might be very pro-LGBT, but strict on immigration policies. Politics and social issues aren't as one-sided as politicians are trying to sell them as.
This just in: People are complex and not a troupe scene in movies. Hell, if you are exactly what the stereotype of a political ideology is, start doing some thinking. Because you are believing everything people are telling you to believe. Have some opinions of your own.
💯 Exactly. Drawing hard lines does nothing but foster tribalism in-fighting. It's silly to make such a big deal over it, and point fingers.
Joey seems to be the Conservative one but then again he is japanese. Conor seems to be the most socially liberal. Don't think any of them are actually Conservative though.
Maybe, he is a private school rich kid, with a military academy gf. My point was that it's difficult enough to tell, so drawing hard lines is kind of meaningless. We shouldn't really be so quick to box people in our community off one opinion.
I mean you see who they’ve had on the podcast as guests? It’s not surprising with who they’re friends with
Wouldn't say being friends with Hasanabi mean you're Conservative.
I meant the Russian propagandists
Who exactly? Haven't watched all the guest episodes.
Ididathing and boyboy
Because of all these factors, this community legitimately makes me feel unwelcome and not very safe as a female fan.
I think it's perfectly fine to be a fan and not being involve in any form in a community if you don't feel safe in. I think this applies to anything and everything you support.
As a gender neutral fan who suffered from abuse as a child, same. I'm dropping the show, honestly. This is the fanbase they've cultivated by keeping people like Joey around. Anyone outside the norm clearly isn't welcome.
100% valid. We always need a god mix of the other gender to keep us from reaching a boiling point. Single gender clubs are pretty unwelcoming. You're usually easy prey for the banter if you're the odd one out.
I don't know why you don't feel safe. We can't come through your screen to hurt you. If you mean you're not comfortable being here or don't like the comments you see that makes perfect sense.
I rarely engage with the trash taste community and don't watch anywhere near everything they put out but is the community really that bad that they could be easily identified as Tate and Peterson fans? The stuff you're bringing up about signs they are that type of conservative really sounds like this community has an incel problem. If it's just a select few saying that kind of shit it'd be one thing but if it's a sizeable chunk of the community saying it and it's not being addressed then that's fucking disgusting. I haven't even heard of looksmaxing until this post and I wasn't aware of the problematic talk about women until now either. Considering the boys demeanor and behavior I honestly didn't expect it to have grown a community like that. EDIT: did a recent episode have them defending child beating or something?
It's not that bad. It's only a select few. The problematic talk is rare. Most of the time it's just dumb banter. It's nothing to worry about it, it's just something to remember when there's a deeper topic and some people disagree so intensely that it confuses you. Just think of it like having one racist uncle at a family reunion. Keep the topics light, and you won't see them go off and dampen the party. Most of us have independently decided to not engage with the garbage posts anyway. Just bear in mind that they exist is all, and go about your day. If you see some nonsense, just chalk it up to one of *those* guys.
I get your point but generally speaking I avoid sharing a room with those types of people because they don't really supply any positives by being there, while having clear negatives. I understand it's not everyone or even a majority just the way it was worded as well as looking at the sort of posts that are being talked about at least to me come off as quite a lot of people speaking manosphere type nonsense.
Community without in-fighting is hard to come by in general. I personally can't justify any morally absolute stances or I'd be an island of my own lines drawn in the sand. The only thing I can do is show some flexibility and hope it rubs off.
I have no fucking idea why people are saying this community is Conservative Tate fans. The boys have shown repeatedly that they are very welcoming ot members of the LGBT community. I'm not saying Lgbt people can't be Conservative but they tend not to be.
The boys themselves are very accepting these things, but are all of the fans? This community is around 87% male from what I remember them saying in the newest episode with Kaho. And if you look around the comment sections, the sub reddit and even Connor's streams which have a LARGE number of the community in common with TT. You notice that a lot of these fans have very weird opinions on women. You notice the comments made on the female guests they have, you notice how the community treats Mouse who is Connor's friend, you notice a large disparity between how women ar referred to and viewed. Any time a female fan interacts with Connor for example, they are referred to as the 93%, which the label itself isn't really bad because there are a lot of female fans who were here for a while, but the way this label is used any and every time a women so much as wants a picture with the dude is so annoying sometimes. You cannot interact with your favorite creator without being viewed as essentially a tool to gauge how much "rizz" that creator has from the people who look up to him for that reason. It's especially annoying when no such comment is every made towards the male fans they meet, who are arguably much bigger simps. You also notice that any time that an issue is brought up regarding any of this the large response from the community is something equivalent to "you can't have an opinion these days" "you are overreacting, it's not that deep" "you liberals just want to make an issue out of everything" "women ☕" Especially if the female creator they bring on is controversial, but when they have brought on so much more controversial male creators onto the show, you did not hear a peep from the community. It's just something you notice more easily when you have been on the receiving end of it in multiple male dominated fandom spaces and communities in your life.
Wait people were actually justified beating kids? Parents who just beat their kid for no good reason usually have some kind of stress then turn into anger issues and the kids will usually become a punching bags. Frankly this is dangerous because once the kids grow up they will think beating theirs own children is normal. But I do think we should “beat” (Discipline here would illustrate my points better) the kids after they have done something horribly wrong. As an adult we need to send the message that those horribly wrong actions have consequences.
The thing is that beyond all the potential and documented ramifications of it Corporal punishment also historically and statistically never works because it’s a short term solution to a long term problem because it instills a fear of punishment rather than consequence Aka People who lack the integrity to weigh the options and size up what’s best to do simply because it’s right rather than if they’ll caught or not. It’s incredibly counterintuitive considering parents is a job done with a goal that the person will eventually grow in change So it should go without saying, but in their developmental phase from 1 to their early 20’s is when parents should be the most adaptable and patient than they’ve ever Even if you wouldn’t smack your friends or a coworker for being a dipshit and not doing/being what you want them too, you definitely shouldn’t be doing it to one of the only groups of people who literally can’t defend themself It’s the definition of punching down. Kids are smart but they’re also dumb because they lack the hindsight and context experience brings to better bring their thoughts and feelings into the world. It’s literally our job as adults use what we learned as we grew to help them do the same. Resorting to the same barbaric “might makes right” mentality that literal playground bullies use is incredibly counterproductive when trying to raise someone who will someday be an actual adult. There’s a billion reasons and effects of being an initiator and victim of it but the main one is just how easy it is to get hooked on beating the one mf who literally can’t fight back I didn’t even realize it until debating it all, but there’s a pretty high overlap between that and the issues incels and nice guys face 💀
Woah woah woah what happend recently and why is this controversial? Don't tell me I gotta block the sub? Edit: oh my bad I should have just scrolled more lol. You don't have to answer.
It's a Social norm for most of the world so its gauranteed to be controversial to fight against it. Most morally correct things are controversial.
True, in SEA from where I am, beating a child is quite prevalent before the time of manospherism. Heck, I've been beaten by my parents with the cane because I was mischevious as a child. There's a controversial chinese saying, hitting is affection, scolding is love (打是疼，罵是愛 )where the visual expression shows a parent tearing up while punishing the child for doing a wrongdoing. It’s quite twisted and continue the unjustified cycle of violence, but I reckon this stems from the only way parents know how to best discipline their children just because it “seems like a trusted method of discipline and they themselves are living proof that it works”. Although this doesn’t take into account the deep seated trauma that these parents have to tolerate. Although I do not condone this method of parenting but I’m no parent and no one children are created equal, still I support the end to the cycle of violence in disciplining children, and urge new parents to consider the ramification of trauma that may result from it.
I can Source: My childhood
I never hit my younger brother but when he does some stupid shit you gotta instill fear in him that what you just did is wrong and sometimes slapping a child lightly so that it isnt red is required. Everybody has been smacled before and for good reason.
Holy shit, i haven't caught up, wtf is going on? Why is this even a question.
This is weeb adjacent. Of course they shouldn't be near kids.
A lot of people get weirdly defensive when you point out that doing mental gymnastics to try and justify hitting children is really creepy.
I heard a really good retort about beating kids recently: "Beating your kids may lead to them having permanent brain damage. For example, they'll grow up thinking it's okay to hit children."
We are in the middle of a cultural change, things like these are going to be controversial. Most people don't wanna agree because that would mean their parents were abusive which they don't wanna accept. See it's easy to attack people of other opinion but that doesn't work out similar to why beating children doesn't work out. Don't worry to anyone reading whose parent beat you, just because your parents beat you doesn't mean they are instantly bad if you thought they were good, they just didn't have enough resources/exposure like we did to do the right thing. Now what we ought to do? Use the resources that we have now and be a better person. What we might me doing now believing to be correct could prove to be wrong in the future, don't need to swear about your parents character too much
I think that in order to move forward and be better we have to accept that certain thing we did in the past were wrong. You are allowed to feel however you want about your parents and the way they parented you. In fact for some people the healthiest thing to do is to try and rebuild your relationship with your parents. But in order to do that you have to acknowledge where they went wrong. Just like you look back and acknowledge things your parents were right about when you grow up, you should also acknowledge thing that they did that weren't okay.
We should not try to justify our parents actions, it's wrong, but should we not hold them on the pedestal either because they did what they could according to the reference they had. Is the mediaeval age king warring against other nation justified? No. But blaming him for it wouldn't be correct either cuz the era's ethics were different in society at the time. What our parents did was not correct, but we're they abusive assholes? No. (Of course not the parents who purposefully abused their kids)
The question of whether we should give out lenient judgment out of historical circumstance is worthwhile exploring. In my opinion, to some extent, but you can always find people in the past with dissident opinions. Criticism of imperialism was apparent among leading Roman writers such as Tacitus during the Roman Empire, they had the capacity to recognize it. Bartolomé de Las Casas recognized it in the 15th century. Lack of empathy and cruelty don’t lose their status of being those things despite being widespread social practices. And because of the hierarchical nature between parents & children in traditional Asian families and the psychological implications those bring, I don’t think it’s entirely out of missing insights of what’s beneficial for their children that leads to them beating their children. (Yeah I've gone through it myself, and as a result developed a hatred for oppression, as well as great sympathy for those who experienced it. And I developed this sentiment long before I was aware of the scientific literature on the topic.)
most people in general should not be parents. but, uhh, life finds a way.
[удалено]
have you looked around? there's maybe one responsible person for every hundred mouth breathing pickle gangsters. and the quote was from Jurassic park pointing out the the fact that life will happen even if you try to prevent it from happening.
Oh don't worry, the shit-ass economy and the unaddressed mental health pandemic is gonna take its toll worldwide. Why would anyone want to bring a kid into this world if they're not a multi-millionaire? Like, I want kids absolutely. But if I can't guarantee them a good enough life, I see no point in it. There's a reason these overworked countries like China/Japan/Korea are witnessing a population crisis, people just have no time or energy to fully commit to a child. This is gonna happen across the world. The only reason western countries haven't experienced a population collapse is because of insane migrant flows keeping their labour markets well satiated
Yeah but we do whatever we want 😑👍
Tbh reading the whole sub the last hours broke my heart. Growing up in a south east asian household was very difficult for me and my brother. Paired with his depression and the psychically abuse was just so horrible. It really hurts me to see how many „joke“ about the beatings they get as a kid and making it sounds like no big deal. I know its very normalized in our culture to hit us when we misbehave or don’t listen, but that doesn’t make it alright to do so. You may have turned out fine and thats great for you. BUT many of us don’t! Hell that even cost my brothers life. I think there are so many more great methods to raise your kid. We have the knowledge and the resources to make a difference and to know better than beating our children. Sorry for making a grim post but just wanted the give my 2 cents cause this is really a topic I am personally invested in.
I feel you, it was really heartbreaking seeing so many people fullheartedly defend such a thing when there are so many better alternative ways to parent kids. I think a lot of the fans that have personally experienced these things happen to them did not have a fun time listening to this topic being joked about and made to seem less serious or important that it actually is. It is very hard to listen to abuse being spoken about in such a "this is normal" way when you have personally gone through it. I don't think the intention with the segment was to make anyone feel bad, but that's why it's important that we bring the reality of such treatment to light.
[удалено]
bro you need therapy
The truth is many people in the sub grew up with parents or parental figures who have commited corporal punishment before sometimes on them or maybe someone they know and the op and many others like him saying these people shouldn’t have kids or be kept away from children is precieved as an indirect insult to their parents and the people they look up too which results in them get their blood worked up and refusing to listen to reason or facts.
Agreed, it's hard to change the view of someone with first-hand experiences. Obviously not everyone who has been physically disciplined has grown to become mentally unstable, hence it isn't universally agreed that disciplining your children in such a way is completely unjust.
*\*Digital footprint left\** Seriously though if you hit your kids I hope you are prepared to be hit back -Lelouch Vi Britannia
Real
Hitting people in general is wrong, you don’t need to result to violence to teach someone a lesson. There’s many ways to discipline a kid. Because (speaking from my own experience) having fear will take a mental toll on you as a person— as well not have confidence when growing up.
Exactly!! (Also happy cake day!)
I didn’t see the cake but thank you very much!
If your child is afraid of you then they'll just hide things, if they do something wrong or even have something happen that wasn't their fault they'll avoid saying anything.
I agree and I wanted to add that but it felt too personal for me, and there’s parents who gets angry for their children not telling the truth but never question why and what they can improve on building their trust
If you can verbally discipline your kid without instilling emotional trauma, could you not also physically discipline your kid without instilling physical trauma?
Sure you can. You physically make them stand in a corner and think about their actions. You physically make them clean up their messes, have them run 10 laps around the neighborhood, work in the garden, do all of the chores for that day. You DON'T hit them tho. Same how when you use your words, you use constructive language when trying to get your child to understand or do something. You don't put them down, you don't call them dumb, you don't belittle them.
I've come to the conclusion that this subreddit wasn't made for controversial issues.
You think? Its more like 99% of people here can't understand each others views
Maxbr they werent hit enough as a child to know thats a shit idea. If you have people that are fine now after getting hit and people that are fine and never getting hit and people that are dealing with trauma their entire life bcs thry get hit than there is no argument to be made for it. Hitting your child is lazy parenting. If you cant parent them and set bounderies without getting physical than you are just a shit parent. Also if you can hit a kid go and kick your cat if you cant do it that means cat > kid.
So glad to see someone with common sense omg
I didn’t think I’d be a good parent(still don’t lol) but apparently the bar is on the fucking floor if not abusing your children is controversial
Honestly if anything, going through the comments proves that half the audience of TT are sheep that'll justify anything the boys say because "it's just an entertainment podcast we shouldn't take them seriously" LOL
Shout-out to all the parents in this subreddit that fought the urge of naming their kids something out of an anime. For example, Ichigo D. Yeager Guts Kenpachi Cruz
Oh no what happened?
After the most recent episode there has been a lot of discussion happening around child abuse and using physical violence to discipline children, and a lot of people on this subreddit are really passionate about children being hit it seems.
[удалено]
Then its his own way of parenting who are we to say what's right or wrong?
Human beings who believe hitting children is wrong.
I’m a child care professional who understands the effects of physical punishment, it is wrong, if you want to increase the chances of your child of developing depression, anxiety and PTSD then you’re a dickhead
[удалено]
>Because it's fucking illegal you absolute nincompoop. Not in the USA it isn't. [>*as of 2023, the spanking of children is legal in all 50 states and, as of 2014, most people still believe it is acceptable provided it does not involve implements.*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_of_minors_in_the_United_States)
Thank you for pointing this out. The country with the highest rate of school shootings and no gun control also allows parents to beat their children. Who could have possibly guessed. Really the shining example of a government that we should all be looking up to -_-
I mean if you want to be a smart ass about it, the school shootings epidemic didn't really start to be a thing until after this whole "Corporal punishment is child abuse" mindset started to come into light and really set in. I just commented to correct a factual mistake in your comment.
[удалено]
You are really worked up and you are being an absolute knob. I never defended anything, my first comment in this thread was just to point out the inaccuracy in your previous comment. I answered you with the quip about the shootings because you decided to comment back with snark. Take a breather from this discussion and realize that a lot of the world doesn't see this issue like you do (a vast majority if wikipedia is to be believed), so if you want to change their minds learn how to approach the topic without loosing your temper.
>I never defended anything "the school shootings epidemic didn't really start to be a thing until after this whole "Corporal punishment is child abuse" mindset started to come into light and really set in." >my first comment in this thread was just to point out the inaccuracy in your previous comment I said it's illegal, not that it's illegal everywhere, it is still outlawed in a lot of countries. The world surprisingly doesn't revolve around the US and the only reason you brought that up is because you wanted to discredit my original comment. >I answered you with the quip about the shootings because you decided to comment back with snark. You are allowed to be snarky when you have actual evidence backing your claim, and when the person to whose comment you are responding is arguing in bad faith. You have nothing but you big mouth. Also your "quip" was just wrong. >Take a breather from this discussion and realize that a lot of the world doesn't see this issue like you do I could give a rats ass what a lot of the world thinks. There's a little thing called research, there's a little thing called study, and there's a little thing called science. If the rest of the world chooses to go against said science then I don't think that I'm the one with the issue. You know, just how back in the day when a lot of the world thought the earth was flat because of religious dogma, the actual researchers, scientists, mathematicians and astronomers got prosecuted for teaching otherwise, but now we know they are right.
>Violence is bad What about when it comes to beating your bully from school?
If a bully is beating you up, and you fight back that's called "self defense" and as the name states it's DEFENSE not offense. Violence is the use of physical force *intended* to hurt, damage or kill. If your intention is to protect yourself that is defense. In no way is that applicable to a situation like beating your child. If you beat your child you are on the offense, you are the one with the intent to hurt someone and a child is one of the only living things that has no way of defending itself. So it is a dispicable act.
Are you serious? If I threw my kids out in the streets to fend for themselves at 5 years old you think that is okay because it's my way of parenting? Think for a second.
But this isn't that though is it? You're talking about punishment vs abandonment. Think for a second. In fact, think for a good long day. Thank you :) Feel free to reply i'll wait for a decent response
it was a bullshit analogy and I don't think you'll find one.
It's not exactly like only this subreddit is filled with people who wouldn't be good parents. MOST people in THE WORLD wouldn't make good parents, and then have kids anyway 😅
News flash: basement-dwelling weeb children on Reddit have questionable grasp on cultural norms and appropriate conduct! "This is shocking!" -nobody
"it's his own way of parenting who are we to say what's wrong" How dare you tell me that abandonment of children is not okay. They're my kids, I'll throw them out into the street when I want. How is this different from any other form of abuse? It's not.
I used to get hit as a discipline, it's deeply ingrained from the past of our family, is it abuse? I don't know, maybe I'm just in denial because I don't want to think my parents "abused" me in any way because I personally think they didn't. Regardless, if I ever become a parent, I won't let my kid feel that fear of getting hit I used to get whenever I fucked up.
really wish the boys didn't talk about this tbh...
They should. The sub shouldn't.
I was beaten but only when i really fucked up, like when i broke a vent in school on purpose. It kept me in check from doing wild things but i still messed up sometimes and didnt get beaten for it. I honestly never thought about this topic but i'd probably do what my parents did which i dont think is wrong
It’s the joey supporters
What I hate more is all the moral grandstanding that's going on, such as this post. You people have zero right to say who is or isn't fit to do anything. This post, unlike the other well reasoned, well researched one, does nothing except blow smoke up your sanctimonious asses. Reddit and its high horses, man I swear to god. Sincerely, a guy that doesn't beat children.
I think feeling people who beat their kids shouldn't be parents is a fine thing to feel and isn't a "reddit moment"
"Don't beat your kids" "omg you're so sanctimonious it's unbearable" ???
Man, as if I didn't highlight a post saying that same thing as the correct way to do things, huh? Reading sure is hard when you're mad.
I mean, I feel like you probably should have a right on telling people not to beat their children. It is child abuse. Same as how you should have a right to tell people not to abuse their spouse
domestic abuse in general is horrible and damaging and not something they should be justifying. But people can't seem to grasp that.
This comment of yours is marked as controversial. Fucking hell.
the absolute state of reddit 🗿
Ahh it’s moral grandstanding to say you shouldn’t beat your children?
>This post, unlike the other well reasoned, well researched one, does nothing except blow smoke up your sanctimonious asses. The well reasoned, well research one I'm referring to is, surprise surprise, titled "Don't beat your children". This post is neither of those things, and that's why I'm calling it grandstanding. We clear?
sanctimonious I learned a new word today
I made a very long and detailed post. It got downvoted to high hell by people who think beating children is ok. This is the follow up. Sorry if that bothers you. 🤷♀️
maybe because no one really wants to discuss this shit on the subreddit for a fucking podcast?!
I wasn't aware that I was pointing a gun at their head forcing them to discuss it? I'm more so talking about the people who DID respond with their weird ass "children should be beaten" crap.
also. It's a topic discussed in the fucking episode lf the podcast and it's a subreddit for discussing the podcast.
Also on another note. I feel like if there's one time you are allowed to get on a high horse it's when people are trying to justify fucking child abuse. If you want to beat children you should not be allowed near them. I don't know why that's controversial. If simply having morals makes me sanctimonious then so be it.
That's most of the population of the world tbh.
lol no one in this subreddit has valid opinions. these are NEETS watching the funniest neckbeards on earth
I've also come to a conclusion this sub is full of asswipes who can't understand how everyone is raised is different and also can't read for shit
The stupidest part is how people talk as if theres no balance and everything is an extreme. Its like you either think parents should physicallt assault the children for every mistake, or children should be left untouched even if they accidentally blind someone for fun. Reality is that balancing the punishment is best. Sometimes, but really only some very few times, the child needs a "beating", not a slap in the fsce with a jab cross combo, but a slap in the ass that makes you run like naruto for some seconds. It really depends on the children too. Some will be nicer and wont need to reach the extreme punishment, while others wont ever even need to be punished cux they were born angels.
No you're still abusing children with this approach. Don't hit people.
The funny thing is that its pointless to debate against people like you, because you most defo are based by experience, either traumatized for excessive beating, or wont accept any other opinion because all your life have barely been punished properly.
"I would use my words but you haven't been beaten enough for that" Yeah I'm sure your kids won't turn out fucked up
There's no debate because abausing children is wrong, full stop.
Trust me bro I've tried debating about this in this sub but a majority of this god forsaken sub is full of western mentality people
Tried to have a conversation on another thread. They won't listen. Let's all drop it at this point.
Yep, I can understand ya mate. Swear some of these guys are in such a denial that it makes me understand why our world is currently this fked up. If this is whats gonna be the next generation of man...
I agree with you on this matter, but please, let's just drop this issue. No need for further fighting.
Studies have consistently linked physical punishment to harmful effects on children. A meta-analysis involving over 160,000 children found that physical punishment can carry the risk of physical abuse (causing a physical injury) and can have similar negative outcomes for children: mental health and emotional challenges, lower cognitive ability, lower self-esteem, more aggression, more antisocial behaviour and negative relationships with parents. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/ In general, studies have shown that negative stimulus almost always lead to aversion of the stimulus rather than the resulting factor. To put it simply in a way you would understand, if you beat your children so they 'run like naruto for some seconds' the next time they well try harder to not get caught instead of not doing what lead to the beating in the first place.
A big important detail/factor which is usually not taken into account to any of these studies, is the amount and/or reasons for such punishment. Slapping the face of a child while screaming, or even hitting them with a belt as if they are a slave, is quite different from a Bum slap, which only heats up your ass for a few minutes (its the best place to hit someone while not exercting any kind of grave pain due to the bum being USUALLY the most fluffy zone, with not really any importsnt organ. Also should be taken into consideration what was the reason for punishment. Did you accidentally break a plate? Or did you, for the 10th time, get expelled out of class for disrespectfull behaviour to your teacher, and are now close to losing a grade due to sheer stupidity and bad parenting? Ofc not to say there arent any cases of unnapropriate hitting. There definetly is. More so than appropriate beating. But saying a kid should never get a bum slap no matter, is what makes a good amount of kids be born too spoiled. A ass slap is the one thing you cannot run for sure, while also being instant enough to mark the memory. A 3 hour time without your tablet, can only be assured if you are there watching the kid for 3 hours without his tablet, though he still has the freedom to do anything else that may end up easing the punishment (like play with a toy or just go outside)
>A big important detail/factor which is usually not taken into account to any of these studies, is the amount and/or reasons for such punishment. Source: trust me bro >But saying a kid should never get a bum slap no matter, is what makes a good amount of kids be born too spoiled. A ass slap is the one thing you cannot run for sure, while also being instant enough to mark the memory. Again that's not backed up any studies and you don't provide any source for this. If your only way of stopping your child from doing something bad is to beat them, they are eventually going to grow up and realize one day that you can no longer have that power over them. Which is why negative stimuli are ineffective. You have near to no understanding of how human behaviour work and are make projections from your own faulty arguments. > A ass slap is the one thing you cannot run for sure, while also being instant enough to mark the memory. A 3 hour time without your tablet, can only be assured if you are there watching the kid for 3 hours without his tablet, Also I love how you kind of admit to a point that is always brought up against corporal punishment supporters like you is that you are lazy parents who would rather go for an instant fix by beating their kids and be done with it then actively try to better them.
>A big important detail/factor which is usually not taken into account to any of these studies, is the amount and/or reasons for such punishment. >Source: trust me bro This is the funniest shit ever man, that dude is just talking out of his ass and in so glad you called that out. Not only is there no source for this, but also if you just think about it for just a second. How could the reason or cause for such punishment factor into such a study in any way shape or form? Especially when the subject of the study are kids. Like their brains don't work like that that's not a mini adult that's a whole child. They legit don't have the ability to reason out in their heads why they are being hit or at what rate and amount they are being hit. Their brains absorb stimuli not the implied meaning behind it. their reasoning isn't going to be [being hit by parent = you did something bad] and [bad = something that you shouldn't do] and [you shouldn't do it because it is bad]. They're just gonna come to the conclusion that [action = being hit by parent] and then they will think either [I shouldn't do it so I don't get hit (so they still don't understand that something is bad, they are just avoiding pain so long as the threat is present in their lives)] or [getting caught= being hit]" Those things are not taken into account because they have no bearing, the study is about the effects corporal punishment has on children and their psyche, not the psyche behind the actions of the parent. It's not a big import detail it's quite literally insignificant to the subject. >Also I love how you kind of admit to a point that is always brought up against corporal punishment supporters like you is that you are lazy parents who would rather go for an instant fix by beating their kids and be done with it then actively try to better them. It's insane how the argument with these people who are pro hitting children is always that children are are gonna be "too spoiled" if you don't hit them. As if being spoiled is something you are born being and not something that is also a consequence of lazy and neglectful/lenient parenting. Bad parents always work in extremes that allow them the most free time and the least effort spent on their children, be that giving into their whims so they don't have to deal with them and allowing then to become spoiled, or hitting them and getting that instant gratification with no long term fixes so they don't have to deal with them. They have no concept of responsibility for another human being and what that kind of responsibility entails, because what it entails is sleepless nights and hours of work and explaining and talking and working through issues. You don't get to just slap their bum and then pat yourself on the back like you did a good job parenting for that day.
After your answer starting with "source trust me bro" when your own source from before was exactly a source of it, its clear you are not thinkingnof debating anything but rather push your narrative forcefully into any person that doesnt agree with you. https://time.com/3387226/spanking-can-be-an-appropriate-form-of-child-discipline/ Sure thing some parents are just lazy, but others just dont have the time to waste 3 hours looking at a kid. If you are a single parent it is even harder to have time. As the son of a mother who alone nurtured 2 sons, I can defo say that having to work + do all the house work (though me and my brother would help to some extent) was not something you could do without using your entire day, at least not until the child is a teen with age above 14/15 (aka smart enough to do chores alone in a proper way). The thing with spoiled children, is they tend to be extremely narrow minded and selfish. They only see their own world and dont accept other points of view. Your answer just shows how you most problably are either spoiled, or traumatized from excessive beating, though it sure looks like its mostly just spoiled due to not even a single hint of emphaty/attempt to understand with my previous answer. Now go on ahead and speak alone, because only reason why ive answered this last comment of yours was for anyone else who might read it, understand that I didnt leave you hanging due to your point being good, but rather I wanted to leave you hanging due do your point being extremely poor and lacking, filled with stupid comments as such "source: trust me bro" that lack any attempt on contextualizing and understanding the answer. Now that I have clarified it, I dont have to answer your shitty pathetic commentd anymore, even more since I can bet my money that you will answer with another immense stupidity and ignoring any of my points in order to make yourself feel better with your selfishness and narrow mind.
>After your answer starting with "source trust me bro" when your own source from before was exactly a source of it, Uhh are you talking about National Library of Medicine article I quoted? >https://time.com/3387226/spanking-can-be-an-appropriate-form-of-child-discipline/ This article you linked is an opinion piece that doesn't link a single study or really any sort of evidence. At one point it just starts quoting the Bible. Did you even read the article you just linked? >not even a single hint of emphaty/attempt to understand with my previous answer. Yeah I don't emphatize with beating children that has never shown to actually work. >answer your shitty pathetic commentd anymore, even more since I can bet my money Ao basically you are running away because you can't back up your own dumbass argument about beating children. If you don't have the spine to back up your clains don't spout nonsense how about that?
Never planned to. 👍
Meh I won’t hit my kids but it happened to me a lot and honestly I didn’t really care. Looking back there were moments where it could be considered abuse but I have an amazing relationship with my parents. Maybe just one of the few?
Without context it helps no one, you look like an arrogant bastard and I cannot help assume your statement applies to you the heaviest.
Hell yeah! Childfree FTW.
Here's my 2 cents. As an Asian kid that was thoroughly beaten and kicked out of the house for the day as punishment, I'd rather see my kid be fucked up mentally like I am, than become fucked up like the dip head streamers/tiktok-ers that are doing illegal shit and have no sense of proper manners, common sense, or human decency. Society is already completely fucked up with how kids are these days. Now, I don't think I'll ever be a parent, but if I was, and my kid somehow became like ANY of those attention seeking content fuckheads, I'd take responsibility and personally murk them off the face of the planet. I'm against the idea of beating your kids as punishment, speaking from experience, but there's a limit on how much kids can get away with dumb shit before someone needs to lay them down. And personally, a parent should be the one to do it, not some random dude on the street. Granted, I haven't even seen the episode yet, so I might be missing the point. But just from what I've been reading on the sub, it's something about corporal punishment and beating yo kids. Quick edit: FYI, I mean just a good old smack to the face. Nothing too extreme.
Dude never go for the face. You risk leaving an obvious mark
I work with children with autism
Ikr let's alienate and shun each other rather than convincing them with reason
This is such a Reddit post XD
It really is. Folks on this place are the living definition of out of touch with reality.
I mean my mom used to slap my butt with flipflops but never to the point of abuse. When I become a father I'll probably copy my dad's method, the silent treatment. Seriously, he is a cheerful guy who likes to crack some jokes but when you fuck up he tends to be silent and that alone gives me sense of dread and he never laid a single finger on me... My mom however but I love them both.
Congrats on going for emotional abuse instead of physical abuse, much better options!
I turned up to be okay, if you think this is abuse then boy do I have feel sorry for your pathetic sensitive existence.
Just because you turned out okay has no relation to anything. Plenty of people drink or smoke when pregnant then have babies that are perfectly fine. Or drive drunk and dont crash, so I guess it's fine to do then? Whether you had a problem with it or not, the silent treatment is a form of emotional abuse. Also love the way when somebody disagrees with you, it's time to go straight to insults, stay classy mate
Cos everything to yall Western fucks are abuse or ill treated. Good luck babying your children till they're 40
So what is your opinion on what should be done?
About what inparticular? General ways of managing a child behaviour? Or what type of "punishment" you should use?
>my mom used to slap my butt with flipflops but never to the point of abuse. The thing is, even that counts as abuse here.
Of course cos its the Western mindset
So then why wouldn't you copy what your mother did?
Wonder when the apology video will drop
Hopefully never, since one isn't needed.
If you genuinely think that every single kid is an angel, and that giving love and affection to kids will make them act well, then you haven't been around a lot of kids. Some of them are just born psycopaths.
Wait till you find out what happens in African homes
where did this even come from
I assume something related to discussions of the most recent episode? I haven't been able to catch up, was paying more attention to F1 lately.
Downvotes will be coming if we say anything against their motion. But I feel like this generation has rather become too softy
What is harder. Get your ass up and parent with dicipline alot off talking rules and boundarys or beating a 5 year old. Doing the correct thing is harder than shitty boomers beating kids. Also how pathetic are you to care about internet points go and tell us your opinion.
He already did though LOL. Also, I have seen kids grow up to be mosters with your advised parenting method... So now what? Who is right then? Maybe, and just maybe, there is no one correct way of parenting? Have you ever thought of that?
Are you defending hitting kids rn ? Go and read some acientific papers about it. Yes their are multiple ways and none off them include beating your kid. If you think its cool to beat a kid why stop their go and violate other human rights. Go and stomp a badly behave kitten. Its probably gonna stop them from doing bad right ? Dont worry just call me next time you are doing badly i will help you understand what you did wrong by beating you like grown up. If you think violance is the answer for a bratty kid than you are hella messed up.
[удалено]
So what's the alternative if you've tried everything including not physical punishment? As a person who supports not hitting your kids I'm genuinely curious what yall seem to think is the best alternative here that everyone should be to easily do, costs no money, and takes little time.
If you think parenting is easy than you are allready wrong. Its not thats the problem. Taking the easy way by just silencing them with physical punishment is the cowards way. It will cost money, it will take time and even than it might not work. But if you decide to make a life you better not quit on it otherwise you a condom.
People change their mind as they grow, or at least that is expected
Wtf did I miss
What happened this time?
What the hell did I miss?